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Mr. Owen : Does that meet your question, that where it is impossible for a man to be kept to the eight hours—say, a stationmaster getting up for an early train, and there is only the one there—that must be arranged by mutual consent ? Mr. Maxwell : There would be such a large number of cases that the exception would become the rule. Mr. Winter : Of course, all parties would have to judge whether the case was exceptional. Mr. Hannay: I want you to clearly understand that not only were the men's duties fixed upon consideration, but the salary attaching to the duties was also considered from time to time. Mr. Hoban : When we go to salaries, Ido not think we can say any of them get too much. The Conference adjourned at 5 p.m.

Tuesday, 17th June, 1890. The Conference resumed at 11 a.m. Mr. McKerrow : I think we have got to piecework now ? Mr. Hoban: I think so. Mr. Maxwell : I wanted to ask one or two more questions, so that 1 may clearly understand the line which is to be taken up. This question about men being paid for the time they are on, when we were talking about it yesterday, 1 took the case of a stationmaster, and we were talking of a train service the first train going out at 6 a.m. and the last coming in at 7.30 p.m., that is, thirteen hours and a half from the first train to the last. He has altogether eight trains to work during the day, and some other duties to perform, but his work is not particularly heavy —not hard work— although, from first to last, it is thirteen hours and a half. What I want to know is, how do you propose to meet that case as regards his time ? How is he to be paid, if you are going to adopt the eight hours' system ? Of course, he is tied to his station, although he gets two or three hours' spell in the day, once or twice, and his home is at the station. His duties are intermittent, and he is obliged to be there till 7.30 p.m. Mr. Hoban: I understand there is only one man at that station, the stationmaster? Mr. Maxwell : The stationmaster is responsible, and he has to be there. We expect him to be there. Mr. Hoban : As I said yesterday, you are pointing out exceptional cases for exceptional treatment. In several eases we cannot have men working eight hours a day, and there will have to be mutual concessions. We are going on broad principles. This point was put yesterday, and I think we all understood that there might be exceptional cases. Mr. Maxwell : I have taken out the particular instance, because I wish to be careful what we are about. It is not an exceptional case. There are so many what you call exceptions that they practically become the rule. You say this must be exceptionally treated—-that is to say, that he will get no extra pay for his thirteen hours and a half. He will just get his fixed pay as stationmaster ? Mr. Hoban : It is not for us to point out difficulties of that kind, but if this man had a porter and a cadet his duties might be lighter than at present. These are matters of departmental arrangement, and I am sure that with the experience you have you might arrange them. We have not brought a plan with us. We say that there is a universal principle of eight hours all over the world, and we do not see why it should not be adopted on the railways. Mr. Maxwell : You are quite right—eight hours' continuous work ; but eight hours'intermittent service is nowhere recognised; it is quite a different thing. 1 bring a typical case, not an exceptional one, but a case frequently occurring, in which a man, from first to last, is tied to his station thirteen hours and a half, and 1 ask you on what basis do you pay that man ? On the eight hours' basis'? Mr. Hoban: Yes, if it is possible to carry it out. If it is found impossible we should have to make an exception of it. Mr. Maxwell : You would not wish two men to be kept there ? Mr. Hoban : No, we are not so unreasonable. Mr. Maxwell : And you would not apply your rule of overtime wages as laid down in your letter to this case ? Mr. Hoban : If it is found impracticable to keep him within eight hours, we could not possibly compel the department to pay him. Some arrangement would have to be made. Mr. Maxwell : I will go on to take another case. I have done with the stationmaster, and now I will make some comparison between the drivers. As Mr. Elvines rose to speak, Mr. McKerrow suggested that Mr. Maxwell should finish, and then other gentlemen should follow. Mr. Hoban : I might ask that my colleagues should give their answers at the same time as myself. They are railway-men, and understand these details pretty well. I understand them fairly well, but they can give better answers than I can, of course; and an idea which strikes them now may go out of their heads if they have to wait. Mr. McKcrrow : Very well. Mr. Elvines : At Heathcote Valley the stationmaster has a porter with him, and during the afternoon the porter takes charge of the station while the stationmaster is away, simply because they have long hours between them. I think it would answer, if there is a porter or cadet, to let him be acting-stationmaster for a short time duringjthe day. Mr. Maxwell : The case of the driver, which is also to illustrate this principle :Is he to be paid for the time, not for the work ?