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REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION APPOINTED BY HIS EXCELLENCY TO INQUIRE INTO AND REPORT UPON THE OPERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND AND ITS RELATIONS TO THE SECONDARY SCHOOLS OF THE COLONY: TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX.

PRESENTED TO BOTH HODSES OP THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY BY COMMAND OP HIS EXCELLENCY.

WELLINGTON. BY AUTHORITY! GEORGE DIDSBURY, GOVERNMENT PRINTER. 1879.

CONTENTS.

1. Commissions. 2. Repobt. 3. Minutes of Peoceedin<js. 4. List op Witnesses. 5. Minutes or Evidence. 6. Appendix, viz. i — I. Abstract of Letters written by direction of the Commission. 11. Memorandum on University Reserves. 111. General Statement of Reserves for Education. IV. Papers relating to the University of New Zealand, viz.: — (a.) Abstract of the Results of Scholarship Examinations. (b.) Return of Candidates and Passes for B.A. Degree. (c.) Return of Candidates and Passes for Honours, and M.A. Degree. (d.) Statement of Account for Year 1878. (c.) Instructions to Examiners. V. Papers relating to Institutions for Higher Education affiliated to the University of New Zealand, viz. I— (a.) Otago University. (b.) Canterbury College. VI. Papers relating to Theological Colleges affiliated to the University of New Zealand, viz. :— (_.) St. John's College. (4.) Wesley College. (c.) Bishopdale Theological College. \d.) Christ's College. VII. Papers relating to Institutions for Secondary Education affiliated to the University of New Zealand, viz.:^ (a.) Auckland College and Grammar School. (b.) Church of England Grammar School, Parnell. (c.) Wellington College. (d.) Nelson College. (c.) Christ's College. VIII. Papers relating to Institutions for Secondary Education not affiliated to the University of New Zealand, viz.! — (a.) Auckland Girls' High School. (b.) Napier Trust Schools. (c.) Wanganui Collegiate or Industrial School. (d.) Bishop's School, Nelson. (c.) Canterbury Girls' High School. (/.) Otago Boys' High School. ' (ff.) Otago Girls' High School. (A.) Invercargill Girls' High School. IX. Papers relating to Endowments for Religious, Industrial, and English Education of both Races, &c, viz.: — (a.) Three Kings, &c, Auckland (Wesleyan). (b.) St. Mary's, Auckland (Roman Catholic). (c.) St. Stephen's, Auckland (Church of England). (d.) Poverty Bay Native School (Church of England). (c.) Wanganui Industrial School (Church of England). (/.) Te Aute, Wairarapa, and Otaki Estates (Church of England). (ff.) Wesleyan Reserves, Wellington. (h.) Roman Catholic Reserves, Wellington. (i.) Motueka Estate (Church of England). X. Reports of Examiners of the University of New Zealand. XL Papers relating to the operation of " The Religious, Charitable, and Educational Trusts Act, 1876," in connection with the Wesleyan Model Trust Deed. XII. Memorandum by E. Dobson, C.E., on Examinations for Surveyors and Civil Engineers. XIII. Papers relating to Application for Charter for Otago University, viz.: — (a.) Petition of Otago University, 1879. (b.) Petition of Canterbury College, 1879. (_.) Resolution of Senate of University of New Zealand. XIV. Revised Programme of Work for Wellington College. XV. Papers relating to the Presbyterian Church of Otago Endowments. 7. Index.

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ROYAL COMMISSIONS.

Victoria, by the grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith : To our trusty and loving subjects, the Honourable William Gisborne, Member of the House of Representatives; William Henry Cutten, Esquire, Member of the House of Representatives • George Maurice O'Rorke, Esquire, Bachelor of Arts and Member of the House of Representatives ; Joseph Augustus Tole, Esquire, Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Laws, and Member of the House of Representatives • the Reverend James Wallis, Master of Arts, Doctor of Medicine, and Member of the House of Representatives; James Hector, Esquire, C.M.G., Doctor of Medicine and Fellow of the Royal Society, and Director of the Geological Survey; the Reverend William James Habens, Bachelor of Arts and Inspector-General of Schools; John Macmillan Brown, Esquire, Master of Arts and Professor of Classics and English Literature; Charles Henry Herbert Cook, Esquire, Master of Arts and Professor of Mathematics; George Samuel Sale, Esquire, Master of Arts and Professor of Classics and English Literature; John Shand, Esquire, Master of Arts and Professor of Mathematics and Natural Philosophy; George Henry Frederick Ulricii, Esquire, Professor of Mineralogy and Metallurgy; and William Macdonald, Esquire, Master of Arts and Doctor of Laws, —Greeting : Whereas the Governor of our Colony of New Zealand, with the advice of our Executive Council thereof, has deemed it expedient that a Royal Commission should be issued to inquire into and report upon the operations of the University of New Zealand and its relations to the secondary schools of the colony, and the relations of both to the primary schools : Now know ye that we, reposing great trust and confidence in your zeal, industry, discretion, learning, ability, and integrity, have constituted and appointed, and by these presents do constitute and appoint, you, the said William Gisborne, William Henry Cutten, George Maurice O'Rorke, Joseph Augustus Tole, James Wallis, James Hector, William James Habens, John Macmillan Brown, Charles Henry Herbert Cook, George Samuel Sale, John Shand, George Henry Frederick Ulrich, and William Macdonald, to be our Commissioners to make such inquiry, report, recommendation, and suggestion as to you may seem necessary or fit in respect of the matters and things hereinafter mentioned, that is to say,— 1. The constitution, organization, operations, resources, expenditure, and efficiency of the University of New Zealand, and of the various institutions within the said colony for the imparting of the higher or University education, of the secondary or intermediate or grammarschool or high-school education, and of technical education by means of training schools, schools of art and design, and schools or colleges of practical science; 2. The mutual relations and mutual influences of the University of New Zealand on the one hand, and of the secondary and technical schools on the other; 3. The relations which the primary schools sustain or ought to sustain to the secondary, technical, and superior institutions ; 4. The best means of bringing secondary and superior education within the reach of the youth of both sexes, by increasing the number of institutions for such education, by the establishment of morning and evening as well as day classes, by means of scholarships to be held by scholars from primary and secondary and technical schools, or by any other means for the purposes hereinbefore mentioned; 5. The best means of making sufficient and suitable provision for the maintenance, administration, and inspection of institutions for education other than primary; and 6. The condition, value, and application of endowments made out of public estate, or grants of public money held under any trusts, for the promotion of education, or which may have been obtained or procured either directly or indirectly under any grant from the Crown, or under any Act, Ordinance, regulation, or other authority whatsoever for the purposes aforesaid. But nothing herein shall require you to make any inquiry respecting any lands or endowments set apart or applied for the purposes of primary education under "The Education Reserves Act, 1877." And we do by these presents appoint and direct that Wednesday, the fifteenth day of January proximo, at eleven o'clock ante meridiem, shall be the time, and the Parliament Buildjngs at Wellington the place, at which you shall hold your first meeting; and that at such

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meeting you shall elect one of your number to be Chairman, and, in case of the death or absence of any such Chairman, or in case of his inability to act, then that, at any of your meetings hereunder, one of your number may be appointed to be Chairman, as occasion shall require : And we do also by these presents give and grant unto you, at any meeting or meetings, full power and authority to call before you and examine such person or persons as you shall judge likely to afford you any information upon the subject of this our Commission, and to take such examination upon oath or otherwise as in your discretion shall seem meet, and to inquire of and concerning the premises by all lawful ways and means whatsoever: And we do further command and enjoin you that you take down the examination of the several witnesses that may appear before you, and reduce the same into writing • and such evidence, together with a full and faithful report under your hands and seals upon the several matters above referred to, transmit to us, on or before the first day of July, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-nine : And we will and command that until the first day of July aforesaid, or until any previous date upon which you may be enabled to complete your labours, and shall have transmitted to us your final report, this our Commission shall continue in full force and virtue; and that you, our said Commissioners, shall and may from time to time, and at any place or places in our said colony, proceed in the execution thereof, and of every matter and thing therein contained : And, further, we do hereby declare and direct that all the powers, duties, and functions given to, imposed upon, or vested in you, the said Commissioners, may be exercised by any five of you sitting and acting together in accordance with these presents : And for your assistance in these presents we do hereby nominate and appoint the said William James Habens Secretary to this our Commission : And, lastly, we do hereby declare that these presents are intended to be subject to the provisions of "The Commissioners' Powers Act, 1867," and " The Commissioners' Powers Act 1867 Amendment Act, 1872," and are issued by the Governor of our said colony with the advice and consent of our Executive Council thereof accordingly. In testimony whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent, and the seal of our said colony to be hereunto affixed. Witness our Right Trusty and Entirely-beloved Cousin and Councillor George Augustus Constantine, Marquis of Normanby, Earl of Mulgrave, Viscount Normanby, and Baron Mulgrave of Mulgrave, all in the County of York, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom ■ and Baron Mulgrave of New Ross, in the County of Wexford, in the Peerage of Ireland; a Member of our Most Honourable Privy Council; (1.5.) Knight Grand Cross of our Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George; Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over our Colony of New Zealand and its Dependencies, and Vice-Admiral of the same; at Wellington, this twenty-third day of December, in the forty-second year of our reign, and in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and seventy-eight. By His Excellency's command. Normanby. J. Ballance. Approved in Council. Fred. Le Patotjrel, Acting Clerk of the Executive Council.

[Indorsement.] Victoria, by the grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith: To all to whom these presents shall come, and to our Commissioners named in our within Letters Patent, and the Letters Patent of similar import bearing date the eleventh day of February, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-nine.— Greeting : Whereas we did in the within Letters Patent command and enjoin you our said Commissioners that the evidence taken by you, together with a full and faithful report under your hands and seals upon the several matters therein referred to, you should transmit to us on or before the first day of July, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-nine : And whereas it hath been represented to us that, in order to enable you the more properly to fulfil the duties intrusted to you, it would be expedient to extend the period within which you-were required to transmit to us the said report as hereinafter provided : Now, therefore, we do hereby, with the advice of the Executive Council of the Colony of New Zealand, declare and appoint that notwithstanding anything in our said Commission contained, the time at or before which you shall, using all diligence, present to us your report as aforesaid, is hereby extended from the first day of July, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-nine, to the thirty-first day of March, one thousand eight hundred and eighty, until which date, or until such earlier date as you shall be able to conclude your labours, all the rights, privileges, and powers in our within Commission contained shall be and remain in full force and effect: And with the like advice we do hereby confirm the said Letters Patent, except as altered by these presents.

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In testimony whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent, and the seal of our said colony to be hereunto affixed. Witness our Trusty and Well-beloved Sir Hercules George Robert Robinson, Knight Grand Cross of our Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, (1.5.) Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over our Colony of New Zealand and its Dependencies, and Vice-Admiral of the same, at Wellington, this twentieth day of May, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and seventy-nine. By His Excellency's command. Hercules Robinson. J. Ballance. Approved in Council. Forster Goring, Clerk of the Executive Council.

Victoria, by the grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith : To our trusty and loving subject, the Reverend William Edward Mulgan, Bachelor of Arts.—Greeting : Whereas we did by Letters Patent, made and issued under the Seal of our Colony of New Zealand, bearing date the twenty-third day of December, one thousand eight hundred and seventy-eight, appoint the Honourable William Gisborne, Member of the House of Representatives, William Henry Cutten, Esquire, Member of the House of Representatives, together with several other gentlemen therein named, to be our Commissioners to make inquiry into and report upon the operations of the University of New Zealand, and its relation to the secondary schools of the colony, and the relations of both to the primary schools, with other matters and things therein mentioned : And whereas since the issue of the said Letters Patent, Joseph Augustus Tole, Esquire, Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Laws, and Member of the House of Representatives, one of the Commissioners thereby appointed, hath resigned his office under the said Commission, and it is expedient to appoint another Commissioner in his stead : Now know ye that we, reposing great trust and confidence in your zeal, industry, discretion, learning, ability, and integrity, and with the advice and consent of the Executive Council of our said colony, have constituted and appointed, and do by these presents constitute and appoint, you, the said Reverend William Edward Mulgan, to be a Commissioner for the purpose aforesaid, in addition to and together with the Commissioners now acting under the above-mentioned Letters Patent, with all the rights, privileges, and authorities in them vested thereby. In testimony whereof we have caused these our letters to be made patent, and the seal of our said colony to be hereunto affixed. Witness our Right Trusty and Entirely-beloved Cousin and Councillor George Augustus Constantine, Marquis of Normanby, Earl of Mulgrave, Viscount Normanby, and Baron Mulgrave of Mulgrave, all in the County of York, in the Peerage of the United Kingdom • and Baron Mulgrave of New Ross, in the County of Wexford, in the Peerage of Ireland; a Member of our Most Honourable Privy Council • (1.5.) Knight Grand Cross of our Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael .and Saint George; Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over our Colony of New Zealand and its Dependencies, and Vice-Admiral of the same • at Wellington, this eleventh day of February, in the forty-second year of our reign, and in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and seventy-nine. By His Excellency's command. Normanby. G. S. Whitmore. Approved in Council. Forster Goring, Clerk of the Executive Council.

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INTERIM REPORT.

To His Excellency Sir Hercules George Robert Robinson, Knight Grand Cross of the Most Distinguished Order of Saint Michael and Saint George, Governor and Commander-in-Chief in and over the Colony of New Zealand and its Dependencies, and Vice-Admiral of the same. May it please your Excellency,— We, the Commissioners appointed, on the 23rd clay of Decemher, 1878, by your Excellency's predecessor, the Marquis of Normanby, to inquire into and report upon the University of New Zealand and other educational institutions, humbly submit to your Excellency the following interim report. The scope of the inquiry was defined by our Commission as follows:— "1. The constitution, organization, operations, resources, expenditure, and " efficiency of tbe University of New Zealand, and of the various institutions " within the said colony, for the imparting of the higher or University education, " of the secondary or intermediate or grammar-school or high-school education, " and of technical education by means of training schools, schools of art and " design, and schools or colleges of practical science. " 2. The mutual relations and mutual influences of the University of New " Zealand on the one hand and of the secondary and technical schools on the " other. "3. The relations which the primary schools sustain, or ought to sustain, to " the secondary, technical, and superior institutions. " 4. The best means of bringing secondary and superior education within the " reach of the youth of both sexes, by increasing the number of institutions for " such education, by the establishment of morning and evening as well as clay " classes, by means of scholarships to be held by scholars from primary and " secondary and technical schools; or by any other means for the purposes herein- " before mentioned. "5. The best means of making sufficient and suitable provision for the " maintenance, administration, and inspection of institutions for education other " than primary; and, " 6. The condition, value, and application of endowments made out of " public estate, or grants of public money, held under any trusts for the pro- " motion of education, or which may have been obtained or procured, either " directly or indirectly, under any grant from the Crown, or under any Act, " Ordinance, Regulation, or other authority whatsoever for the purposes aforesaid : " But nothing herein shall require you to make any inquiry respecting any lands " or endowments set apart or applied for the purposes of primary education " under ' The Education Act, 1877.' " "We met for the first time in Wellington, on the 15th day of January, 1879, j being the day appointed in the Royal Commission for our first meeting, and sub-' sequently held meetings in the Cities of Auckland, Nelson, Christchurch, Wellington, and Dunedin. We determined to conduct our inquiry by the oral examination of witnesses, < by circulars of questions seeking for written information on various subjects con- l nected with our Commission, and by personal inspection by committees of ourselves of the various institutions for secondary and higher education. By these methods we have obtained a large amount of valuable information, which is contained in the minutes and in the Appendix attached to this our report. We believe

T Appointment of I Commissioners. )

Scope of ■ Commission. i

Meetings of Coinmisson.

Conduct of inquiry.

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that the Appendix will be found to contain the most complete account that has yet been compiled of the institutions and appliances for education, other than primary education, throughout the colony. We have met formally on eighty-two days, and we have occupied seventeen other days in Committee meetings and in the inspection of educational institutions. In the Appendix and evidence we are already supplied with the principal data and material for our final report. The number of witnesses examined up to this date is one hundred and six. We think it will he necessary to examine only a very few more witnesses, and we propose to devote the next few days to this process of inquiry, and, with your Excellency's permission, to send the additional evidence taken in order that it may be at once printed along with that which accompanies this report. We feel it to be our duty to report that, in the case of the Nelson College, one of the institutions affiliated to the University, admittance was refused to the committee deputed by us to make an inspection; and that, in the case of Christ's College Grammar School, also affiliated to the University, our Committee was admitted, but the ordinary school business was not allowed to proceed in their presence. We have had, therefore, no opportunity of observing the working of these institutions. The authorities at Christ's College object to any inspection, except such as is involved in an examination of the school. The objection raised at Nelson was based upon the fact that the endowments of the College originated in a contract between the New Zealand Company and the settlers. {See Appendix, pp. 41-43.) On a similar ground the trustees of the Presbyterian Church Trust of Otago have hitherto declined to afford us information, except verbally and under protest, as to that portion of their income which, under Act of the Assembly passed in 1866, is devoted to " the erection or endowment of a literary chair or chairs in any College or University which shall be erected or shall exist in the Province of Otago." We do not undertake to say that the position assumed by the authorities of Nelson College and the Otago Presbyterian Church Trust is not legally defensible; but we are of opinion that, if it be so, there is urgent need of legislation to render them amenable to public investigation. In our final report, we propose to treat of the whole question of examination and inspection of secondary schools. It soon became apparent that it would not be possible for us, within the time prescribed—namely, before the 30th June, 1879 —to report fully on all the matters referred to us. We therefore made application, on the 9th April, through the Minister of Education, for an extension of time; and about the same time we agreed to make a definite report upon the question of University education before the meeting of Parliament. In pursuance of this application our powers under the Commission have been extended by your Excellency to the 31st March, 1880. We therefore propose, in this our interim report, to restrict ourselves almost exclusively to the matter of University education, although we may refer incidentally to other branches of the inquiry. In the case of so young an institution as the New Zealand University we do not think that the number of graduates can be regarded as by any means a fair test of its efficiency, or of the necessity for its establishment. In the nature of things, some years must always elapse before the earlier students are admitted to degrees; moreover, until the first few have set the example of taking degrees the number of those who aspire to a degree is small. We believe that the University of New Zealand has only just reached that stage at which the results of its operations are beginning to appear in the form of a steady increase in the number of students, and of those who graduate. It is, therefore, satisfactory to observe that there are already fourteen graduates by examination, two of whom, have taken a second degree—that of M. A.—and that there are 106 undergraduates whose names appear in the Calendar of 1879, or who have been reported to us as having matriculated since the Calendar was published. These undergraduates are distributed as follows : —Otago University, 49 ; Canterbury College, 26 ; Wellington College, 11; Auckland College, 7; Nelson College, 5; Wesley College, Three Kings, 4; Bishopdale College, Nelson, 3; St. John's College, Auckland, 1. The numbers now attending lectures at the two institutions solely devoted to University education are—At Otago University, 111, of whom 44 have matriculated; at

Obstacles to inquiry.

Extension of time for report.

Success of University Institu tions.

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Canterbury College, 57, of whom 23 have matriculated. Of the students here enumerated as attending lectures four of those at Otago University and two of those at Canterbury College are graduates. We are informed that the nonmatriculated students at these two institutions are doing the same kind of work as those who have matriculated, the distinction being that the former have not passed the entrance examination, and usually confine their attention to a smaller number of subjects than is required for a complete course. Some of them, however, are school-teachers, who, under a regulation of the University, are allowed to proceed to a degree without matriculation. It has been for many years a moot question whether the New Zealand University has assumed the form best suited to the circumstances of the colony, and it has been a frequent topic of discussion, both in Parliament and among the public at large, whether the University should be merely an examining body, as at present, or should also discharge the teaching functions of a University. In 1874 it was decided by Parliament, after consideration of the then existing circumstances of the colony, that the University should be merely an examining body; and the University Act of 1874 embodies this decision in the following words : — " It is hereby expressly declared and enacted that the University hereby " established is so established, not for the purpose of teaching, but for the purpose " of encouraging, in the manner hereinafter provided, the pursuit of a liberal edu- " cation, and ascertaining, by means of examination, the persons "who have " acquired proficiency in literature, science, or art, by the pursuit of a liberal course ** of education, and of rewarding them by academical degrees and certificates of . proficiency as evidence of their respective attainments, and marks of honour " proportioned thereto." It appears to us that the University Senate, in carrying on its work within the limits thus prescribed to it, has rendered valuable service to the cause of education, particularly by the institution of scholarships for the encouragement of students in the pursuit of a liberal culture; but that it has erred in taking too sanguine a view of the capabilities of secondary schools which aspired to rise to the level of collegiate institutions, and by affiliating these schools on terms of apparent equality with colleges affording a true academical education. We believe that in a great measure the action of the Senate in this respect has been due to the want of means for the establishment of collegiate institutions properly socalled in the North Island. We strongly recommend that this inequality in the educational institutions of the two islands should be removed at once by establishing, at the most important centres of population in the North Island, colleges capable of supplying an education of the same standard as that provided by the University of Otago and the Canterbury College. This course will render it necessary, and will at the same time make it possible, to remodel the New Zealand University, by abolishing the system of affiliation, and bringing the Otago University and the Canterbury College, together with the new colleges proposed to be established, into a much closer relation with the University than the present system admits of. Entering more fully into details, we propose that the Government should invite the Legislature to make immediate provision for the establishment of two colleges—one at Auckland, and the other at Wellington—of such a character as has been already indicated. It appears to us that the institutions should be founded on the model of the existing academic institutions in Canterbury and Otago; and that, with this view, a staff of professors should be engaged for each college as follows: —(1.) Professor of Latin and Greek; (2.) Professor of English Language, Literature, and History; (3.) Professor of Mathematics and Mathematical Physics; (4.) Professor of Chemistry and Experimental Physics; (5.) Professor of Natural Science. It will probably be found necessary, in nearly every case, to appoint a Commission in Great Britain for the purpose of selecting professors. We are of opinion that it will be necessary for the Government either to select out of lands at its disposal suitable sites for college buildings at Auckland and Wellington, or to acquire such sites; and that two grants of £12,500 each 2—H. 1.

Question as to functions of University.

Question decided by Parliament in 1874.

Merita and faults of present system.

General statement of proposed scheme.

. Two new colleges at Auckland and Wellington.

L Their equipment. I [ I

) Sites and grants l for buildings. 1

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should be raado for the building of the two colleges, and for fittings and apparatus. Although these sums are not equal to those expended for like purposes in Dunedin and Christchurch, we think they will be found sufficient for present requirements. We recommend that the erection of the college buildings be undertaken by the Government, and that the plans and specifications for each college be submitted for approval to a Board consisting of two members of the University Senate and two members of the Council of the college, of which Council the proposed mode of appointment will be hereafter described. The same Board might also be consulted as to the selection of the site. For the annual maintenance of these two colleges it is suggested that the Government should take such steps as they may deem best for utilizing the reserves set apart for the promotion of higher education in the Provincial Districts of Auckland and Wellington. These reserves, in the Auckland District, amount to 30,354 acres; and, in the Wellington District, to 4,000 acres. At present they yield no revenue, but we are advised that from some of them at least a rental might be immediately obtained (see Evidence, p. 96, question 2,042). The establishment of tho colleges, however, should not be deferred until, or made dependent upon, the letting or sale of these reserves. As the present endowments may be presumed to be inadequate, our recommendation is that the two colleges be respectively endowed with Crown lands sufficient to provide an immediate income to each amounting to £4,000 per annum; and that, if it be not practicable to make reserves bringing in at once such an income, the deficit in each case, until such income sball be realized, be made good by a pecuniary grant, to be appropriated in a new University Act. i In framing this report, we have first dealt with the question of founding these new colleges, in order to distribute the means of obtaining University education as equally as possible throughout the colony; and we propose that our scheme for affording this higher education shall be capable of extension to other portions of the colony by the foundation of other new colleges as the growth of population may require. We recommend that the University of Otago, the Canterbury College, the two new colleges, and any other colleges hereafter founded, be colleges of the New Zealand University, following, in this respect, the precedent of the Queen's Colleges in Ireland established by the late Sir Robert Peel, which are called Colleges of the Queen's University. We are of opinion that the University should be governed by a Senate composed in great part of representatives of the colleges; and that, in the present circumstances of the colony, the University so governed should be the only body having authority to confer degrees. We are convinced that degrees conferred by such a body would be more highly esteemed than any which might be granted by one of the separate colleges; while, at the same time, under the constitution which we propose, each college will have sufficient influence over the examinations to prevent their being of such a kind as to require or foster a rigid uniformity in the course of instruction and study. Our desire is that each college may acquire a marked individuality, such as to demand recognition in the form of the examinations, and to secure for it a special reputation, which may at some future day be the foundation of its success as a separate and independent University. It is proposed that each of the colleges be styled " University College," with the name of the provincial district prefixed in which the college is situated; and, as these colleges may be regarded as component parts of the University, it may be convenient now to describe the constitution of their governing bodies or councils, and to show the mode of connecting the several colleges with the University. Our opinion is that these colleges, whilst being federated for the purpose of forming one University, should preserve an ample independence, and not be unnecessarily subordinated to the University. With this object in view we have agreed to the following resolution :—" That the said colleges shall not in any way " be under the jurisdiction or control of the Senate of the New' Zealand Univer- " sity further than as regards the regulations for qualifications for the several de- " grees or other University distinctions; the said colleges being, in all other

Selection of sites and plans.

Reserves and revenues.

Possible extension of scheme.

Relation of University and colleges.

Colleges to be called " University Colleges."

< ■ Respective powers of University aud , colleges. 1

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" respects, subjected only to the provisions of the University Act, and the regulations "of their respective governing bodies or councils." It is desirable, however, and intended, that the fixing of the terms of the academic year should rest with the Senate of the University, and that the terms should be uniform in all the University colleges. On the question whether it is desirable that the University should have a fixed seat we Avere by no means agreed. The following resolution was carried by seven votes against six : —" That the New Zealand University should have its seat and " hold its meetings in the Otago University Buildings, in the City of Dunedin, and " all degrees granted by the Senate of the New Zealand University should be " publicly granted and conferred in the City of Dunedin : provided that students, " when graduating, shall not necessarily be required to be present at the ceremony " of graduation." In devising a constitution for the governing bodies of the colleges we have been influenced by three separate considerations of nearly equal importance. In the first place, we have borne in mind that the colleges owe their existence and maintenance to grants of public money or land; and that, on that account, if for no other reason, the Government ought to exercise some direct control over them. In the second place, the professors—whose duties and interests are so inseparably bound up with the prosperity of the colleges, and who must be more intimately acquainted than any other persons can be with the inner working of the colleges, and with the necessities of the students—have an undoubted claim to a voice in the management of these institutions, a claim which is fully recognized in other Universities. And lastly, the graduates, with their experience of the special characteristics of the life of their own college, and their personal reasons for desiring to see its efficiency and reputation well maintained, may be expected to exert a beneficial influence if admitted to a share in its government. We therefore recommend that the Council of each college be composed of twelve members as follows: — Eour members to be nominated by the Governor in Council; Four members to be elected by the Professorial Board of each college; Pour members to be elected by the graduates of the New Zealand University on the books of the college, as soon as there are twenty such graduates by examination ; this last group of members to be appointed by the Governor in Council until there are twenty such graduates. In order that graduates residing at a distance from the colleges may not be put to the inconvenience of coming to the polling-place, it is suggested that means should be devised for taking their votes by voting-papers. We are of opinion that ad eundem graduates of the University should be allowed, on payment of a reasonable fee, to put their names on the books of a college, and to vote at elections of members of the college Council; but that this privilege should be carefully limited in order to secure to the other graduates who are members of the college their proper influence in the conduct of the affairs of the college. The restrictions which we recommend are —that the ad eundem graduates on the books of a college shall not vote at elections of members of Council until there are on the books of the college thirty graduates by examination; and that the Council may refuse to allow an ad eundem graduate to put his name on the books if his place of residence be such as to render it evidently more fitting that he should associate himself with some other college. In other respects it is proposed to invest ad eundem graduates with the same privileges as other graduates of the University. We think that the members of the college Councils should not be appointed for life, but that the appointments should be terminable at the end of four years, and that, in order to bring about a retirement by rotation, one of each group of four should retire annually; the order in which the persons first appointed shall retire to be determined by lot, and subsequent retirements by seniority, retiring members being eligible for re-election or re-appointment. We propose that any member who shall be absent from the meetings of the Council for a period of three months without leave obtained shall cease to be a member, and that the place left vacant by his retirement shall be at once filled up by the person or body who appointed or elected him.

Dunedin to be the seat of tha University.

Constitution of college Councils.

Voting-papers,

Privileges of ad, eundem graduates.

Tenure of office of members of college Councils.

H.—l

With, regard to the appointment of Councils for the proposed colleges at Auckland and Wellington, we recommend that until the Professorial Boards of those colleges shall he constituted the number of members be limited to eight, all to be appointed by the Governor in Council; and that these appointments be made simultaneously with the appointment of the members of the Councils of the Otago and Canterbury Colleges. In each college there should be a Professorial Board, consisting of all the professors holding chairs in the college, and of such lecturers as the Council of the college may appoint; provided that the number of lecturers appointed members of the Board shall not be greater than one-third of the number of the professors. Besides the specific powers conferred on the Professorial Boards, the following general powers should, devolve upon them : —(1.) To deal with questions relating to the discipline of the students, subject to a right of appeal to the college Council; (2.) subject to the approval of the Council, to fix the course of study and the days and hours of lectures and examinations, and to make all necessary regulations with regard to the attendance of the students; (3.) subject to the approval of the Council, to prescribe the subjects of examination for prizes, scholarships, and other college distinctions or rewards ; (4.) subject to the approval of the Council, to make regulations for the management of the college library; (5.) to give through the coljege Registrar such instructions as may be necessary to the porter or other college servants; (6.) to furnish to the Council such information as the Council may require or the Board deem necessary; and also to offer such suggestions for the consideration of the Council as the Board may think advisable. It should be the duty of the Council of every University college to report to the Chancellor before the 31st day of March in every year the proceedings of the previous year ending 31st December, and also to furnish an account of receipts and disbursements during that year; such accounts to be submitted to the AuditorGeneral. In order that the New Zealand University may fulfil the functions proposed to be assigned to it, we are of opinion that it is necessary to remodel the constitution of the Senate, and to pass a new University Act, preserving the continuity of the University, and of the Otago University and the Canterbury College, and saving all their existing rights except such as conflict with the recommendations of this report. We are of opinion that the affiliation of educational institutions should cease, and that institutions at present affiliated should cease to be affiliated, when the new Act comes into operation; with the provision, however, that all existing personal rights of graduates and undergraduates be carefully preserved. The University should consist as at present of a Chancellor,. Vice-Chancellor, Pellows, and Graduates, and should be governed by one body called the Senate of the University. The Senate should consist of six Pellows to be nominated by the Governor in Council, and three Pellows to be elected by the Council of each University College; one-third of the Pellows appointed by the Governor in Council, and one-third of the Pellows elected by each college Council retiring annually. The order in which the Pellows first nominated or elected shall retire may be determined by lot, and subsequent retirements by seniority, retiring members being eligible for re-election or re-appointment. We think that the members of the Senate should not have the right to vote by proxy. The Senate should elect from its own number a Chancellor and a Vice-Chancellor, to hold office for three years, and be eligible for re-election, with the proviso that neither of these offices shall be held by any person who is not at the same time a member of the Senate. The provision made for the representation of graduates in the Councils of their respective colleges renders it in our view unnecessary to retain the cumbrous machinery of Convocation, and substitutes for it a means of making their influence felt to which we believe the graduates themselves will attach a much higher value. The office of Visitor of the University and the University Colleges, we think, should not be of a merely honorary nature, but should be brought into connection, in some degree, with the general system of education in the colony. Believing

Temporary provision for college Councils at Auckland and Wellington.

Professorial BoardB; their constitution Aid functions.

Annual reports and audit.

Re-modelling tho University.

Affiliation to cease.

Senate, Chancellor, and Vice-Chancellor.

Convocation unnecessary.

Minister o£ Education to be Visitor.

H.—l

that the progress of the University and its colleges will he watched witlv^great interest by the people, we suggest that the Minister of Education should be the Visitor of all these institutions, in order that in his place in Parliament he may be able publicly to give such information respecting them as occasion may require. It should be the duty of the Chancellor of the University, on or before the 30th of June in every year, to furnish a report to the Minister of Education upon the condition and progress, revenue and expenditure, of the University during the preceding year, and to accompany the same with copies of the reports furnished to him by the several University colleges ; together with such remarks thereon as he may think fit to make. All these reports should be laid before both Houses of Parliament within one month after the same have been received, if Parliament be then sitting, or, if it be not then sitting, within one month after the next meeting of Parliament. We recommend that the same pecuniary provision for the University of New Zealand as at present exists be made in the new Act. "We deem it very undesirable that the colleges should come into competition with the grammar-schools, or that boys who require school discipline should be prematurely admitted to the freer life of a University ; and we therefore recommend that the minimum age for matriculation be raised to sixteen years. We have carefully considered the question, whether students residing at a distance from the colleges should be allowed to proceed to their degrees by passing the prescribed examinations without attendance at lectures, and have come to the conclusion that great importance should be attached to the attendance of undergraduates upon college lectures ; but that there is no good reason for disturbing the existing arrangement whereby the Chancellor may, in exceptional cases, grant exemption from such attendance. In order that the Senate may have at its command a staff of competent: examiners, we recommend that the professors of the University colleges be! professors of the University, and be ordinarily its examiners. By selecting examiners from among the professors of the University, the Senate will be enabled ', to have its examinations conducted wholly within the colony, and the delay which ensues from the transmission of the examination papers to and from England or > Australia will be got rid of, and the results of the examination made known with much greater promptitude than heretofore. At the same time, the Senate should be at liberty to avail itself of the services of the college lecturers as examiners, and also to appoint persons who are not connected with the teaching staff of any college, or who may ordinarily reside beyond the limits of the colony ; but in no case should any part of the examination be conducted by persons who, for the time being, are not resident in the colony. Eor the purposes of making up the final returns of every examination, and: awarding scholarships, we think that there should be an examination committee,' consisting of the Chancellor, as Chairman, and of persons chosen from among the examiners, each Professorial Board choosing one examiner as its representative for the year. The interests both of the University and of the colleges demand that the terms : offered to gentlemen invited to become professors should be such as may be' reasonably expected to command the services of able men. We therefore recommend that the tenure of office of each professor, according to the ordinary precedent of other Universities, be quamdiu se bene gesserit, but that power be reserved to the college Councils to make arrangements for retiring allowances (varying according to length of service) in cases of advanced age, infirmity, or other such incapacity. In accordance with the resolution cited above for securing the independence. of the University colleges, the right of appointing professors will vest in the Councils' of the colleges ; but we think it necessary that the sanction of the Senate of the University should be obtained before a new professorship or lectureship is established in any college. As the professors of the colleges will receive the status of professors of the University, and as University examinations will be mainly conducted by them, it seems reasonable to give the Senate a voice in determining what professorships are most urgently needed, and also to give it a veto on the institution of new pro-

Chancellor' 9 annual report.

Pecuniary provision for University. Age of admission to University.

Attendance) at lectures.

Professors of the colleges to bo professors of the University, and ordinarily examiners. Examinations to be conducted within the colony.

Examination committee.

Professors' tenure of office.

Appointment of professors.

H.-l

fessorships, in the event of the salaries offered being, in its judgment, insufficient to secure the services of men of the requisite ability and acquirements. The power which it is here proposed to confer upon the Senate will be especially useful as a means of preventing the undue multiplication of technical and professional schools, and of giving a special character to each college by attaching different schools of that class to the different colleges. We are of opinion that, considering the large expenditure involved in founding and carrying on professional and technical schools, it is not, as a rule, advisable to establish more than one school of the same kind. Our scheme provides for instruction in physical and natural science as part of the arts course in every University college. Our view is that, in addition to this, each of the several colleges should have in immediate connection with it some special school; but the precise constitution to be given to such schools is a point upon which we are not able at present to give a final opinion. We find it necessary, however, to recommend that the powers which the present governing bodies of the Otago University and the Canterbury College possess with regard to all the institutions under their charge, be conferred upon the Councils to be constituted under the new Act, and that those Councils have power to associate with themselves committees, composed of persons, not being members of the Councils, who may have special knowledge of the institutions in question. It would perhaps be unwise to include in the new Act a provision for the granting of degrees in science, as such degrees are not included among those enumerated in the University charter; but we think that the Senate should confer with the authorities of the various Australian Universities with a view to joint action in making application to the Crown for such modifications of their respective charters as will enable them to confer science degrees which will be recognized throughout the British dominions. We have ascertained the views of several of the Judges and members of the Bar as to the advisability of proposals for requiring that candidates for admission as barristers or solicitors should pass through a course of University training; but upon this point we must defer our decision until we proceed to the preparation of our final report. Seeing that there is already in the colony a body of professors specially trained for the tuition and examination of youth, and that their number will be nearly doubled if our proposals be accepted, we recommend that the examination of law students in general knowledge and the examination of candidates for admission to the Civil Service be transferred to the University. In order to encourage young persons to continue their studies in the colleges, and proceed to University degrees, it seems to us desirable that a certain number of appointments in the public departments should be reserved specially for students who have graduated with distinction in the University. We do not undertake to name the departments in which these prizes should be given; but it is manifest that from an engineering school, for example, students might pass into the Public Works Department, or into the Telegraph or Survey Department. It appears to us that by this means a special field, however small at first, might be opened up to intelligent native-born youth. We suggest that the Senate should negotiate with the Government as to the departments in which such appointments should be offered, and the conditions of tenure. By the terms of our Commission we are required to report upon the best means of bringing secondary and superior education within the reach of youth of both sexes. We are not yet prepared to deal exhaustively with this subject; but we think it necessary to recommend that it be notified to candidates for appointment as professors of the new colleges that ladies are admissible to degrees in the University, and will be permitted to attend classes in these colleges, as is already the case in Otago and Canterbury. We beg also to direct your Excellency's attention to the necessity of some public provision for the secondary education of girls in Nelson, and of a more adequate maintenance for the Girls' High School in Auckland. We may further state that the classes for girls at Wellington College are limited to two hours a day, and conducted by masters who even without this burden would be overworked.

Technical and professional schools.

Science degrees.

Barristers' and solicitors' examinations.

Examinations of law students and for Civil Service.

Public appointments to be sped iilly reserved for graduates.

Female education.

H.—l

It seems to us that the proposed changes in the composition of the Senate of the University, and of the existing councils of the Otago University and Canterbury College, ought to take place at as early a period as is practicable; and that their successors, and the Councils of the proposed colleges at Auckland and Wellington, should be brought into existence with all reasonable speed, due regard being had to all public interests which have been intrusted to the charge of the retiring governing bodies, and to all engagements which they have undertaken. We have it in evidence that the Synod of the Presbyterian Church of Otago has passed an Interim Act, which will come up for final decision in January next, the object of which is to apply to the establishment and maintenance of a chair in a Presbyterian college the proceeds of certain educational endowments which have hitherto been deemed applicable to the establishment and maintenance of chairs in the University of Otago. This Interim Act appears to have arisen out of a difference of opinion between the Synod and the Otago University Council, as to the particular chair in that University to the establishment of which the funds were to be appropriated. In consequence of this difference of opinion these funds have been for some time lying idle. We are of opinion that the purpose contemplated in the Interim Act of the Synod is contrary to the spirit of " The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 18G6," and that a short Act should be passed—■ first, defining what college or University is entitled to receive the benefit of the endowment ; and, secondly, providing means for settling any difference of opinion between the Synod and the governing body of the college or University so defined. We have, in this report, confined ourselves almost exclusively to an exposition of our scheme for re-modelling the University; and this because the time would not admit of our dealing satisfactorily with any further portion of our inquiry before the meeting of Parliament, and because we are strongly convinced that early legislation in the direction which we recommend is highly necessary to the future progress of University education in New Zealand. All which we humbly submit to your Excellency's gracious consideration. Witness our hands and seals, this 9th day of July, 1879. (1.5.) G. Maurice O'Rorke, (1.5.) C. H. H. Cook. Chairman. (1.5.) G. S. Sale. (1.5.) W. Gisborne. (1.5.) John Shand. (1.5.) James Wallis. (1.5.) George H. P. Ulrich, (1.5.) James Hector. (1.5.) William Macdonald. (1.5.) Wm. Jas. Habens. (1.5.) W. Edw. Mulgan. (1.5.) J. M. Brown. We, the undersigned members of the Commission, beg to record our dissent from that portion of the above report which recommends that the seat of the University should be fixed by Act at Dunedin. The following are our reasons : — (1.) That it is a proposal which is not founded on the evidence taken before the Commission; (2.) that it has arisen from and involves political considerations of a retrospective character which are foreign to the subjects submitted to the Commission ; (3.) that it involves a contradiction of the proposed scheme for the constitution of the University as understood by us, the fundamental principle of which is, that the University colleges shall be on a footing of equality ; (4.) that it is important to the success of the University, constituted as proposed, that the Senate should be enabled to hold its meetings at any of the University colleges, and so keep alive an active interest in its proceedings in all parts of the colony; (5.) that it is not desirable that the Senate should be limited in the selection of the Chancellor to persons residing in or near to Dunedin, which would be the necessary result of the proposal that the Registrar's office and the meetings of the Senate should be permanently fixed there. James Wallis. J. M. Brown. James Hector. C. H. H. Cook. Wm. Jas. Habens. W. Edw. Mulgan. While I assent generally to the recommendations contained in this report, I desire to express my dissent from that part of it in which it is recommended that the examiners of the New Zealand University should as a rule be taken from

Time of proposed changes.

Otago University and the Presbyterian Church Trust.

H.—l

among the professors of the University colleges. I think it wrong that any professor or lecturer should be placed in the exceedingly difficult position of having to pronounce upon the relative merits of his own students and others educated at rival colleges. I think it not unlikely that this difficulty will lead to the breakdown of the scheme, and will precipitate the establishment of four or more distinct Universities. I think further that it is unwise to condemn the plan of conducting the examination by means of printed papers furnished by examiners resident in England, and forwarded by them through the post, until that plan has been fairly tried and proved to be unworkable. I believe that in all subjects except physical and natural science, such a mode of examination would be perfectly satisfactory, and that any inconvenience arising from the delay of a few weeks in the publication of the results would be amply compensated by the unimpeachable character of the examination. G. S. Sale. I concur with the above. —James Hector. I am of opinion that the affiliation of existing educational institutions to the University should not cease immediately upon the coming into operation of the Act dealing with the University and establishing the proposed colleges, but that it should remain in force until the new colleges are actually established. James Hector. I do not approve of this report. W. H. Cutten.

MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS.

The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, on "Wednesday, the 15th day of January, 1879, at 11 o'clock a.m. Present: John MacMillan Brown, Esq., M.A.; Charles Henry Herbert Coot, Esq., M.A.; the Hon. William Gisborne, M.H.E.; the Bey. William James Habens, BA. (Secretary) ; James Hector, Esq., C.M.G., M.D., F. 8.5.; William Macdonald, Esq., M.A., LL.D.; John Shand, Esq., M.A.; George Henry Frederick Ulrich, Esq.; the Bey. Jame_ Wallis, M.A., M.D., M.H.E. The Secretary read the letters patent, issued under tbe Great Seal of the Colony, appointing the Commission. On the motion of Brofessor Brown, seconded by the Hon. W. Gisborne, Mr. G. M. O'Eorke was unanimously elected Chairman of the Commission. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, the chair was taken by the Hon. W. Gisborne. Resolved, on the motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Brown, That a telegram be at once sent to Mr. O'Eorke in the following terms: ** The University Commission has unanimously elected you Chairman, and earnestly trusts that you will wire acceptance of the office." Resolved, on the motion of Professor Shand, seconded by Professor Brown, That, in all matters relating to procedure, the Chairman Bhall have a deliberative vote, and in the case of an equality of votes he shall also have a easting vote ; but that, in deciding upon fhe recommendations to be made by the Commission in its report to tbe Governor, the Chairman shall possess only one vole. Moved by Dr. Wallis, and seconded pro forma by Professor Brown, That the meetings of tbe Commission be open to the public. Amendment proposed by Dr. Macdonald, and seconded by ProfesFor Ulrich, That the proceedings of the Commission be communicated to the Press by the Secretary as the Commission shall from time to time direct. Debate adjourned. The Secretary laid on the table the following books and papers : —l. Schools Enquiry Commission, 1864:—Vol. 1., Eeport of Commissioners ; Vol. VI., Ecports, —Fcaron on Borough Schools in Scotland, and Matthew Arnold on Secondary Education in France, Germany, _c. 2. Eeport of Eoyal Commission, 1870, on Scientific Instruction, 3 vols. 3. Third Eeport of Her Majesty's Commissioners on Schools in Scotland, Vol. I. 4. Lord Stanley's Circular, 1867, to Her Majesty's Bepresentatives abroad, with their Eeplies, on Technical and Primary Education. 5. Eeport on the State of Public Education in Victoria, by Professor Pearson, as Eoyal Commissioner, 1877-78. 6. New Zealand Acts : " Commissioners' Powers Act, 1867," and Amendment Act, 1872; " University Endowment Act, 1868;" "Education Act, 1877 ;" "Education Beserves Act, 1877 ;" Acts relating to certain High Schools. 7. Eegulations (1878) made under "Education Act, 1877." 8. New Zealand Parliamentary Papers: Eeport of Select Committee of House of Bepresentatives on University Scholarships, 1867 ; Beports of Commission on Beligious, Educational, and Charitable Trusts, 1869-70; Beturn of Education Beserves, 1876; Eeport of Education Department, 1878; Eeport of New Zealand University, 187S; Beport of Otago University, 1878; Eeport of Canterbury College, 1878; Papers relating to School of Mines (H.-le.), 1878; Eeport on Wellington College, 1878. 9. University Calendars : New Zealand, 1878 ; Cambridge, 1877 ; Oxford, 1878 ; London, 1877; Edinburgh, 1878 ; Dublin, 1878; Queen's, 1877 ; Melbourne, 1878. 10. Gazette, June 12,1878 : Apportionment of Eeserves for Primary and Secondary Education. 11. List of Secondary Schools, with Circular from Education Department, asking for Ecports, 1878. 12. Technical Education, with Eeporls on Technical Schools of Germany, &c, by E. Gill. 13. Technical Training, by T. Twining. 14. Free Schools of the United States, by F. Adams. A letter was read from Mr. E. 11. Power offering to give evidence in reference to the refusal to award him the Bowen Prize, 1875. Ordered to stand over. The meeting was adjourned until 4 o'clock p.m., at which hour the Commission again met. The Secretary intimated that no reply had been received from Mr. O'Eorke in reference to his election as Chairman. Resolved, on the motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Brown, That the Chairman, Dr. Wallis, Professors Cook and Shand, the Secretary, and tbe mover be appointed a Committee to draw up a general scheme of business, aud report to the Commission as early as possible. The meeting was then adjourned until 2.30 o'clock next day. Thcesday, 16tii January, 1879. The Commission met pursuant to adjournment. Present : Dr. Wallis, in the chair; Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Eev. W. J. Habens, Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The Secretary reported that ho had received a telegram from Mr. O'Eorke, accepting the office of Chairman. On tbe motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Brown, it was resolved, That tho consideration of the motion by Dr. Wallis, " That the meetings of the Commission be open to the public," and of tbe amendment proposed thereto, be further postponed. The Secretary brought up the Eeport of the General Business Committee, which was read as follows : — General Business Committee, Parliament Buildings, January 16, 1879, at 10 a.m. — Dr. Wallis in the chair. On the motion of Professor Shand, seconded by Professor Cook, Resolved, That the Commission be recommended to appoint four Committees, with the following titles respectively:—1. University Committee; 2. Committee on Secondary Schools; 3. Committee on Professional and Technical Schools; 4. Endowment and Finance Committee. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by the Bey. W. J. Habens, it was agreed to recommend that the following members should constitute the Committees respectively: — 1. University: Professors Brown and Cook, the Bey. W. J. Habens, Brofessors Sale and Shand, and Dr. Wallis; 2. Secondary Schools: Professor Brown, Dr. Macdonald, and Professor Shand ; 3. Professional and Technical Schools : Eev. W. J. Habens, Drs. Hector and Macdonald, and Professor Ulrich; 4. Endowment and Finance: Professor Cook, Mr. Cutten, Hon. W. Gisborne, Mr. O'Eorke, Professor Sale, and Dr. Wallis; and that Professor Sale be the Convener of the first Committee, and Dr. Macdonald, ,Dr. Hector, and the Hon. Mr. Gisborne be the Conveners of the second, third, and fourth Committees respectively. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Shand, Resolved, That each Committee shall report as to the manner in which the inquiries of the Commission can be best conducted on the general subject remitted to it; the institutions affiliated to the University of New Zealand to be considered by the University Committee, in so far as they supply University or superior education; and by the Committee on Secondary Schools, in so far as they supply intermediate or secondary education. I—H. 1. (M. of Pro.)

H.—l

On the motion of Mr. Cutten, seconded by Professor Sale, Resolved, That the report of the General Business Committee be adopted, and the Committee bo discharged. On the motion of Mr. Cutten, seconded by Professor Ulrich, Resolved, That it be a rule that any member of the Commission may be present at the meetings of Committees. On the motion of Br. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Ulrich, Resolved, That the minutes up to the present date be placed at the disposal of the Press. The Commission then adjourned, to meet again on Monday, at 10 o'clock a.m., at the Parliament Buildings, Wellington.

Monday, 20th Januakt, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Bey. \V. J. Habens (Secretary), Brs. Hector and Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, and Br. Wallis. On the motion of Br. Wallis, seconded by Professor Sliand, tiie chair was taken by Br. Macdonald. Tbe minutes of tbe proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of Br. Wallis, seconded by Professor Cook, Resolved, That the consideration of the motion, "That the meetings of the Commission be open to the pubiic," and of the amendment thereto, be postponed until the first meeting in the following week. Professor Sale brought up an interim report of the University Committee. On the motion of Br. Hector, seconded by Professor Ulrich, Resolved, That, in terms of the interim report of the University Committee, the Commission directs, — 1. That the Chancellor and Registrar of the New Zealand University be summoned to attend on Saturday, February 1, at 10 o'clock a.m. 2. That the following documents be obtained:—l. A complete set of New Zealand University Calendars; 2. A complete set of Minutes of Proceedings of the University Senate ; 3. Twenty copies of Calendar, 1878 ; 4. A complete set of Examination Papers, 1878; 5. Copies of all Returns furnished by Examiners; 6. Reports and Returns of Affiliated Institutions. 3. That the Secretary be instructed to print the suggestions of the Committee for the vise of members. On the motion of Br. Wallis, seconded by Professor Shand, Resolved, That Professor Ulrich be a member of the Secondary Schools Committee. Br. Hector brought up tho report of the Committee on Professional and Technical Schools, which was read as follows:— The Committee reports that it has distributed the subjects falling within its scope under heads, and indicated the sources of information, as follows : — I. List op Schools, etc. A. formal Schools and Classes. — a. Normal School, Christchurch ; b. Normal School, Buncdin ; c. Normal Classes, Auckland; _. Normal Classes, Thames ; c. Normal Classes, Timaru. (?) B. Medical Schools. — a. Medical School, Christchurch ; b. Medical School, Dunedin. C. Law Schools. — a. Law School, Christchurch ; b. Law School, Dunedin. D. Art Schools. — a. School of Art, Dunedin ; b. School of Art, Auckland ; c. School of Art, Wellington. (?) E. Mining Schools. —_. Mining School, Christchurch ; .. Mining School, Dunedin. E. Agricultural School. —„. Agricultural School, Christchurch. Or. Museums with Teaching Appliances. — a. Colonial Museum and Laboratory, Wellington ; b. Canterbury Museum and School of Technical Science ; c. Museum of Otago ; d. Auckland Museum. H. Science Lectureships. — a. Auckland; b. Wellington; c. Nelson. I. Civil Service Examinations. J. New Zealand Institute. 11. Points of luqitiey axd Sorncus ok lufoemation. A. The Constitution, Equipment, Working, Vtilifg, and Extension of the Normal Schools. — a. Education Report, 1878, pp. 94, 95, 99. b. Replies to Schedule recently issued by Education Department, c. Evidence of Inspectors and of Chairmen of Education Boards as to the practical value of the training given in the Normal Schools, and as to the present demand for and supply of teachers. B. The Extent, Success, and Adequacy of the Medical Schools. — a. Report of the University of Otago, 1878, pp. 1, 2, 3, 5, C. b. Papers relating to Canterbury College, pp. 5, 7. c. Evidence of Registrar as to operations of Medical School, Christchurch. _. Evidence of Registrar-General as to additions to the roll of medical practitioners in New Zealand during past years. _. General evidence as to the desirability and practicability of establishing such schools. C. The Extent, Success, and Adequacy cf the Law Schools. — a. Evidence of Registrars of Otago University and of Canterbury College as to operation of their respective law schools. _. Evidence of the Registrars of the Supreme Court in each district as to requirements for the various general knowledge and law examinations ; the extent to which University and College certificates are received as exempting from .examination ; and the numbers added during past years to the roll of legal practitioners in New Zealand. D. The Operations, Success, and Extension of Art Schools. — a. Eiiveation Report, 1878, pp. 56,57. b. Reply to Schedule of Inquiry recently issued by Education Department, c. General evidence as to establishment of art schools in all the large towns. E. Proposed Schemes for Mining Schools : their Suitability and Probable Success. —„. Papers relating to the Establishment of Schools of Mines, H.-l_, 1878. b. Report of University of Otago, H.-Ib, 1878, pp. 3, 5. c. Papers relating to Canterbury College, H.-c, IS7B, p. 2. „. General evidence as to present supply of, and probable future demand for, mining surveyors, assayers, consulting mining geologists, &c. E. Proposed Scheme for Agricultural School: its Suitability and Probable Success. —„. Papers relating to Canterbury College, H.-lc, 1878, pp. 1, 2, 6. b. General evidence as to probable supply of agricultural students. G. Extent to which Museums may be made available for Teaching Purposes. — a. Annual Reports, Colonial Museum; Colonial Industries Report, Wellington, b. Otago University Report, H.-ln, 1878, pp. 2, 5. c. Papers relatim- to Canterbury College, H.-lc, 1878, pp. 5, 6, 7. d. Evidence of Curators of Museums. H. Extent aud Nature of the Work done by the Science Lecturers. —_. Evidence from affiliated institutions of New Zealand University on the nature and extent of their work in this direction. I. The Character and Value of the Civil Service Examinations. — a. Evidence of Secretary of Civil Service Board as to Examination Regulations. J. The Teaching Powers given to the New Zealand Institute. — a. Act founding the New Zealand Institute. On the motion of Professor Cook, seconded by Dr. Wallis, Resolved, That the report of the Committee on Professional and Technical Schools be received, and the Committee discharged. On tbe motion of Professor Sale, seconded by Professor Brown, Resolved, —1. That, in terms of tho report of the Cotnmitteo on Professional and Technical Schools, the Secretary be instructed to apply for information regarding technical education in advance of tbe official replies to the Schedule issued by the Education Bepartment. 2. That the report of the Committee be printed for the use of members. The Commission then adjourned, to meet again at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, on the following Thursday, at 10 o'clock a.m.

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Thursday, 23rd January, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Slfend, aud Ulrich, and Dr. Wallis. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, the chair was taken by Professor Cook. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting wero read and confirmed. The Secretary read the correspondence since last meeting, including the following telegram from tho Chancellor of the New Zealand University : "It would bo more convenient to mo to appear on tho 6th, instead of lst, and return next day. Would this suit as well ? " On the motion of Dr. Wallis, seconded by Professor Brown, Resolved, That tho Chancellor be communicated with, and informed that it would expedite the business of the Commission if it were possible for him to be in Wellington not later than the 3rd February, but that the Commission is willing to accede to his request if his earlier presence would cause him great inconvenience. The Commission, however, is unable to say that the examination will last only one day. The Secretary laid on the table the following books : —l. Report of Commissioners on Universities of Scotland, 4 vols., 1878. 2. Code of Regulations, with appendix of new articles, by Committee of Privy Council on Education in Scotland, 1878. 3. Japanese Education. 4. The Great Schools of England. 4. New Zealand University Calendars for 1873, 1874, 1875, 1877, and Supplement 1877. G. Report of Commission on Boys' High School, Dunedin, 1873. 7. Hansard, from 1887 to 1877. 8. File of Lyttelton Times for 1874. Professor Sale reported the progress made by tho University Committee, and submitted further papers, which were ordered to bo printed. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, soconded by Professor Brown, Resolved, That the Commission do now adjourn, to meet again at the same place on Monday, the 27th instant, at 10 o'clook a.m,

Monday, 27th Januaey, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Hon. W. Gisborne, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Br_. Hector and Macdonald, Professors Sale, Sliand, and Ulrich, and Br. Wallis. On the motion of Dr. Wallis, seconded by Professor Brown, the chair was taken by Mr. Cutten. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and continued. The debate was resumed on the question, " That the meetings of the Commission bo open to the public j" and tho amendment proposed thereto, " That all the words after ' That' be omitted, for the purpose of inserting the words ' tho proceedings of tho Commission be communicated to the Press by the Secretary, us the Commission shall from time to time direct.' " Question put, That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question ; upon which the Commission divided, with tho following result: —Ayes, 2 : Hon. W. Gisborne and Br. Wallis. Noes, 8 : Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Rev. W. J. Habens, Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The words were consequently omitted. Question put, That the words proposed to be inserted be there inserted. Dr. Wallis proposed, and Professor Ulrich seconded, the addition of the following words: " but that no member of the Commission is bound to secrecy in reference to tho business transacted at meetings of the Commission." Question put, That tho words proposed to be added be there added ; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result: —Ayes, 2 : Professor Ulrich and Br. Wallis. Noes, 9: Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Hon. W. Gisborne, Rev. W. J. Habens, Br. Hector, Br. Macdonald, Professors Sale and Sliand. So it passed in the negative. Question put, That the pi'oceedings of tho Commission be communicated to the Press by the Secretary, as the Commission shall from time to time direct. The Rev. W. J. Habens proposed, and Professor Brown seconded, That all the words after "That" be omitted, for tbe purpose of inserting the words, " unless it shall be otherwise specially directed, tho proceedings of the Commission, exclusive of debates, evidence, and documents, may be communicated to the Press by the Secretary." Question put, That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result: —Ayes, 3 : Mr. Cutten, Brs. Macdonald and Wallis. Noos, 8 : Professors Brown, and Cook, Hon. W. Gisborne, Roy. W. J. Habens, Br. Hector, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. So it passed in the negative. The question being put, That the words proposed to be inserted bo there inserted, it passed in the affirmative, and the motion as amended was agreed to. The Secretary laid on the table the following books : —l. Otago Provincial Council Proceedings, 1869-70. 2. Otago Ordinances, 18fia-69. 3. o_igo Education Reports, 183(5-73. 4. Appendices to Journals of Houso of Representatives, 1871-77. 5. Report of Bublin University Commission, 1878. 6. New Zealand Gazette, 1877 and 1878. 7. A set of New Zealand University Calendars. 8. Twenty copies of Calendar, 1878. 9. Complete Minutes of University, 1871-78. 10. Examination Papers, New Zealand University, 1878. The Secretary read a letter from Mr. G. Hunter, M.H.R., stating his inability to furnish information asked for in reference to the Wanganui Industrial School, and suggesting that application should be made to his Lordship the Bishop of Wellington. On the motion of Br. Macdonald, seconded by Br. Wallis, the Secretary was instructed to communicate with his Lordship the Bishop of Wellington. Dr. Macdonald brought up the report of the Committee on Secondary Schools, which was read as follows: — The Committee reports that it has distributed the subjects falling within its scope under heads, and indicated the sources of information, as follows : — I. PUBLIC SECONBARY SCHOOLS. List of Schoois. A. Already Established. —l. Auckland College and Grammar School. 2. Church of England Grammar School, Auckland. 3. Napier Trust Schools. 4. Wellington College. 5. Wanganui Collegiate or Industrial School. 6. Nelson College. 7. Bishop's School, Nelson. 8. Christ's College and Grammar School, Canterbury. 9. Girls' High School, Canterbury. 10. Otago Boys' High School. 11. Otago Girls' High School. 12. Invercargill Girls' High School. B. Proposed to be Established. —l. Whangarei High School. 2. Auckland Girls' High School. 3. Thames Boys'and Girls' High School. 4. New Plymouth High School. 5. Wanganui High School. G. Christchurch Boys' High School. 7. Ash burton High School. 8. Timaru High School. 9. Waitaki High School. 10. Invercargill Boys' High School. Points op Inquiry and Sources of Information (A. Papers ; B. Persons). 1. History and Objects. —A. _. Ordinances and Acts of Foundation and Government (see List appended) : Local Acts (1877) LI., LIL, LXXXII.; (1878) XVIIL, XXVI., XXX., XLL, XLIL, LIB, LIV., LV*., LXIII.; b. Prospectuses and annual reports of the several schools; c. Reports of Commissions of Inquiry—Otago High Schools, 1809, 1873, and 1877 ; d. Returns to bo obtained from Secretaries ns to foundation, objects, and most important facts in the history of the schools. B. Members of governing bodies, headmasters, _x-,

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2. Governing Body and Management. —.A. <r. Ordinances and Acts, as under I; b. Reports of Commissions, as under 1; c. Replies to schedules issued by Education Department, 1878; _. Returns from Secretaries as to duties and powers of headmasters. B. Members of governing bodies, teachers, parents, and others interested in the schools. 3. Organization and Course of Studies. —A. a. Prospectuses and time-tables of the schools; b. Replies to schedules^ Education Department, 1878. B. Lady-principals, headmasters, teachers, examiners, and others. 4. The Staff: its Number, Qualifications, and Salaries. —A. a. Prospectuses of schools ; b. Replies to schedules issued by Education Department, 1878; c. Additional return from Secretaries as to qualifications of teachers. B. Eridence of head teachers and others as to sufficiency. 5. Buildings and Equipment. —A. _. Special reports to be obtained from Inspectors of Schools or other experts regarding the suitability of site, buildings, furniture, and playgrounds ; _. Returns from Secretaries as to libraries, museums, laboratories, cabinets of scientific apparatus, drawing models, diagrams, maps, &c. 6. Attendance. —A. a. Time-tables of the schools ; b. Replies to schedules issued by Education Department, 1878; c. Returns from Secretaries as to attendance during the last five years ; _. Returns as to the vacations and the occasional holidays ; .. Returns stating how many of the pupils reside away from home, and how many come from beyond the provincial district in which the school is situated. B. Teachers. 7. Inspection and Examination. —A. a. Replies to schedules of Education Department, 1878 ; .. High School Acts, 1877, 1878, last section of each Act. B. Inspector-General, professors, teachers, and others, as to desirability, manner, and scope of inspection and examination. 8. Efficiency. —A. a. Reports of Commissions, as under 1; b. Reports of examiners; c. Special examinations under the direction of the Commission, if deemed necessary. B. University examiners, professors, professional and commercial men, and others, as to extent and quality of instruction. 9. Boarding Arrangements. —A. Replies to schedule of Education Department, 1878. B. Governing bodies and head teachers. 10. Cost of Instruction. —A. Return from Secretaries as to fees and other charges made in the several schools. B. General evidence as to cost of secondary schools, and as to the desirability and practicability of free secondary education. 11. Income and Expenditure. —A. a. Replies to schedule of Education Department, 1878 ; b. General statement for last five years, to be obtained from Secretaries; c. Report of Endowments Committee. B. Governing bodies as to sufficiency of present and prospective income. 12. Relations to (a) University; (b) Primary Schools. —A. Question fully discussed in Otago High School Commission Report, 1873. B. General evidence as to relation that ought to subsist between secondary schools and the University, and between secondary schools and primary schools, in respect of (a) courses of study, and (b) scholarships from the lower to tho higher institutions. IL—DISTRICT HIGH SCHOOLS. List of Schools. 1. Blenheim; 2. Oamaru; 3. Port Chalmers ; 4. Totomairiro; 5. Lawrence ; 6. Invercargill. Points of Inquiey and Sotjeces of Information. 1. Objects.—A., a. Ordinances; b. " Education Act, 1877," sections 55, 56. B. General evidence as to functions and utility of these schools. 2. Organization, Curriculum, Staff, and Cost of Instruction. —A. a. Returns from Secretaries of Boards in Otago Southland, and Marlborough. 3. Attendance and Efficiency. —A. Reports of Inspectors. B. General evidence. 4. Relations to (a) Primary Schools, (b) Secondary Schools, (c) University. —B. (See under 1.-12.) lII.—PRIVATE SECONDARY SCHOOLS. Is it desirable to make a list of these schools, and to send out a schedule asking for information as to objects, organization, curriculum, staff, buildings, equipment, attendance, cost of instruction, inspection, and examination; and should the Commission propose to examine these schools ? IV.—SECONDARY INSTRUCTION IN PRIMARY SCHOOLS. A. _. Reports from Inspectors ; b. Returns from Board Secretaries stating whore it is given ; c. Returns from teachers stating its extent and cost. B. Teachers and others as to its practicability and desirability. References to Oedinances, Acts, and Reports relating to Public Secondary ScnooLS. (Appended to Report of Committee on Secondary Education.) Auckland College and Grammar School. —" Auckland Education Act, 1872," sections 43, 44; " Auckland Education Act 1872 Amendment Act, 1874;" Report of Board of Education, 1875 ; New Zealand Education Report, 1878, page 101; Auckland College and Grammar School Report, 1875-76 ; " Auckland College and Grammar School Act, 1877." Wellington College. —" Wellington College Act, 1872 ;" " Wellington College Amendment Act, 1876 ;" " Wellington College Loan Act, 1873;" "Wellington Coilege Vote in Aid Act, 1873;" New Zealand Education Report, 1878, page 102. Nelson College.—" Nelson College Act, 1858;" "Nelson College Act, 1870;" "Nelson College Trust Act, 1858 ;" " Nelson College Trust Lands Act, 1863 ;" New Zealand Education Report, 1878, page 104. Christ's College, Christchurch. —" Canterbury Church Property Trust Ordinance, 1854 ;" " Christ's College Ordinance, 1855," including deed of foundation; "Christ's College Amendment Ordinance, 1858;" New Zealand Education Report, 1878, pp. 106-107. Canterbury Girls' High School. —New Zealand Education Report, 1878, page 107. Otago High Schools. —"Otago Education Ordinance, 1861;" "Otago Education Ameudment Ordinance, 1565 ;" " Otago Grammar Schools Ordinance, 1869 ;" " Otago Boys' and Girls' High Schools Act, 1877 ;" Report of High Schools Commission, 1869 ; Report of High Schools Commission, 1873 ; New Zealand Education Report, page 10S ; Otago Education Report for year to April, 1877 ; Otago Education Report for year ending December 31, 1877. Southland High Schools. —"Southland Boys' and Girls' High' Schools Act, 1877." On tho motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Cook, Resolved, That the report be received and printed, aud that the Committee be discharged. Professor Cook brought up the report of the Endowment and Einance Committee, which was read as follows :— Wellington, 27th January, 1879. The Endowment and Finance Committee has the honour to submit the following report:— The Committee has made a provisional list of the institutions which are to be inquired into, and has appended the list to this report. The various returns on the subject of educational endowments iv the Appendices to the Journals of tho House of Representatives have been examined, and found to be all more or less incomplete. The best return is that given iv the Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives for 1877, H.-21. The Committee recommends—■ 1. That application be made to the Commissioner of Crown Lauds in each provincial district for complete returns up to date of reserves made for education, other than primary education under " The Education Reserves Act, 1877."

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2. That application be made to the School Commissioners under " The Education Reserves Act, 1877," for complete information as to the condition, value, and application of lands set apart for secondary education under that Act. 3. That application be made to the Treasury for a statement of grants of public money issued for secondary or higher education. 4. That application be made to the trustees of tho institutions concerned for a statement of the condition, value, and application of the reserves of each institution, and of the appropriation of public moneys which have been granted to them, and suoh other information as the Commissioners may require of them. 5. That application be made to the Government on the subject of the University reserves referred to in the University Acts of 1868, 1874, and 1875. 6. That inquiry be made of the Boards of Governors named in the various High School Acts of 1877 and 1878 as to what has been done in the matter of reserves under their Acts. Provisional- List oe Institutions. University of New Zealand. Auckland. —Auckland College and Grammar School; Church of England Grammar School, Auckland ; St. John's College, Auckland; Wesley College, Three Kings; St. Mary's College, North Shore, Auckland; St. Stephen's Industrial School, Auckland ; Auckland Girls' High School; Thames Boys' and Girls' High School; Whangarei High School. Taranaki. —New Plymouth High School. Hawke's Bay.— Napier Trust Schools ;Te Aute Estate ; Wairoa School; Poverty Bay Native School; Town of Clyde School. Wellington. —Wellington College; Wesleyan School Reserves, City of Wellington; Roman Catholic Female School, Wellington; reserve of 500 acres at Porirua for public school; reserve of 590 acres at Wairarapa for education ; Wanganui Industrial or Collegiate School; Church Missionary Society Schools —reserve of 562 acres at Otaki for schools under Church Missionary Society ; Wanganui High School. A relson. —Nelson College; Nelson School Society; Native School, Motueka; Bishopdalc Theological College; Bishop's School. Canterbury.— Canterbury College ; Christ's College; Girls' High School, Christchurch ; Boys' High School, Christchurch ; Ashburton High School; Timaru High School; Medical School, Christchurch. Otago. —Otago University; Otago High Schools ; Waitaki High School; Southland High School. On the motion of Professor Cook, seconded by Professor Shand, Resolved, That the report be received and printed, and that the Committee be discharged. Professor Brown proposed, and Dr. Macdonald seconded, That the evidence of the Chancellor and Registrar of the University be taken on the points on which the University Committee has recommended that they be examined. Amendment proposed by Professor Sale, seconded by Professor Shand, That the Commission do now adjourn, to meet again at the same place to-morrow, at 11 o'clock a.m. * The amendment was put and carried, and the Commission adjourned accordingly.

Tuesday, 28th January, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 11 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Coot, Mr. Cutten, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Sliand, and Ulrich, and Dr. Wallis. On the motion of Professor Brown, seconded by Professor Ulrich, the chair was taken by Mr. Cutten. The minutes of tho proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Professor Sale brought up the following report of the University Committee : — The Committee reports that it has distributed the subjects falling within its scope under heads, and indicated the sources of information, as follows : — UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND. Division of Subject. Sources of Evidence. I. Histoey and Objects. A. Papehs (see list appended) : a. New Zealand Statutes ; b. Journals; c. Appendices, including Annual University Reports; d. Otago Provincial Council Proceedings ;e. Deeds of foundation of provinces; /. Hansard; g. Calendars; h. Minutes of Proceedings of Senate. B. Persons : Chancellor, evidence as to relations with Government, &c. 11. Constitution and Government. 1. Appointment and powers of Members of Senate A. _. "University Act, 1870," sections 3, 4, and 7; aud Chancellor. "University Act, 1874," sections 5, 7, 11, 12, and 13 ; b. Appendix to Journals of House of Representatives, 1871, G.-8A; c. University Calendars (accompanied by analysis oi personnel of Senate). B. Personal opinions of witnesses regarding powers and mode of appointment, past and future. 2. Convocation. A. a. " University Act, 1870," section 5 ; " University Act, 1874," sections 8 and 15-20; b. Hansard, 1877; c. Calendars of other Universities. B. Opinions of witnesses regarding powers and constitution. 3. Administration by Senate during session and by A. a. Minutes of Proceedings of Senate; _. Regulations in Chancellor during recess. Calendars. B. a. Chancellor and Registrar of University; b. Officers and representatives of affiliated institutions; c. Graduates, undergraduates, and others who wish to offer evidence. 111. AFFILIATION OF COLLEGES AND SCHOOLS. 1. Circumstances under which affiliation took place. A. a. Minutes of Proceedings of Senate; b. Copies of correspondence ; c. Reports of Deputies from Canterbury and Otago, 1874. (See Lyttelton Times, 13th March, 1874, and lst May, 1874.) 2. Objects sought to be obfained by affiliation. B. Officers and representatives of affiliated institutions. 3. Conditions of affiliation and their fulfilment. A. a. University Statute, 1876, Calendar, page 48 ; Regulation, Calendar, p. 49; b. Minutes of Proceedings of Senate; c. Reports and returns to Education Department. B. a. Chancellor and Registrar; b. Officers and representatives of affiliated institutions.

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Division of Subject. Sources of Evidence. IV. Functions undertaken by University and Affiliated Institutions eespectively. 1. Faculties. A. a. Calendar; b. Minutes of Proceedings, 1876 and 1877; c. "University Act Amendment Act, 1875;" d. Calendars of other Universities. (See also report of Committee on Professional and Technical Schools.) B. Chancellor (respecting exclusion of science); opinions of witnesses respecting the creation of other Faculties. 2. Instruction, how provided. A. a. University Acts, compared together; b. Minutes and reports (showing money granted for teaching purposes to affiliated institutions) ; c. Regulations respecting affiliation and keeping terms. B. Opinions of witnesses respecting the proper functions of the University with regard to providing instruction. 3. Examinations. (1.) Matriculation. A. a. Minutes of Proceedings, 1575; b. Calendar, pp. 116-118. (2.) Junior scholarships, degree, and senior A. Minutes of Proceedings. and third-year scholarships. B. Representatives of affiliated institutions. (3.) Annual College examinations. . A. Regulations, Calendar, p. 49. B. Representatives of affiliated institutions. V. Working and Efficiency of tiie University. 1. Junior scholarships. (].) How awarded at various times. A. a. Calendars and Examination Papers, 1878; b. Minutes of Proceedings (special resolutions affecting Examiners); c. Instructions to Examiners ;d. Reports of Examiners. B. Masters of schools, &o. (2.) Value and conditions of tenure. A. Calendars; Calendar, p. 50, Reg. IX. B. Representatives of affiliated institutions, masters of schools, &c. (3.) Proportion of holders who have continued A. Calendar, p. 109, compared with pp. 98, sqq. or completed University course. B. Representatives of affiliated institutions —especially respecting exceptional cases, where holders have gone to other Universities, or have ceased to prosecute University studies. (4.) On what principle place of previous educa- B. Chancellor and Registrar. , tion determined and described in Calendar. 2. Matriculation. (1.) Conditions at various times. A. Calendars, 1874 and 1878. B. Professors, teachers, &c. —respecting age of candidates, standard of acquirements, &c. (2.) Character of examination iv different affi- A. Copies of examination papers, where procurable. liated institutions. B. Examiners. (3.) Proportion of matriculated students who A. Calendar, p. 105, sqq. have gone through the whole or part of B. Registrars of afliliated institutions, the University course. (4.) How far made use of for other than Uni- A. Regulations of Education Department, p. 9. versity purposes. B. R.'v. W. J. Habens, Dr. Hector, Mr. Woodward, Rev. B. W. Harvey, and others. 3. Senior and third-year scholarships. (1.) How awarded at various times. A. a. Regulations in Calendar; b. Minutes of Proceedings, 1877; c. Examination papers; d. Instructions to examiners ; c. Reports of examiners. B. a. Chancellor and Registrar (respecting mode of deciding on results, and selection of Greek and science as special subjects for third-year scholarships). (2.) Value and conditions of tenure. A. Calendar, p. 50, Reg. 10. B. Teachers in affiliated institutions. (3.) Number of holders who have prepared or B. a. Registrar; b. Teachers iv affiliated institutions. are preparing for honours. 4. Degrees. (1.) What degrees authorized to be granted. A. a. " University Act, 1874," section 23, and Amendment Act, 1875, section 2; b. Correspondence relating to Charter. Appendix to Journals H. R., 1875, H.-_A ; H. R., 1870, 11.-8 A; H. R., 1877, H.-6; c. Charter; d. Calendars of other Universities. B. Chancellor (respecting exclusion of Si-ience degrees). Dr. Hector, Professors Haast, Hutton, Bickerton, Kirk, Black, &c. (2.) Regulations and standards at various times. A. a. Calendar, 1874, pp. 29, 30, 32. Calendar, 1878, p. 52, sqq.; pp. 55-57; p. 65, sqq.; b. Examination papers and Examiners' Reports; c. Calendars and examination papers of other Universities; _. Memorandum from Professorial Boards of Canterbury and Otago (1875). B. Officers and representatives of affiliated institutions, aud others. (3.) Selection of examiners. A. a. Minutes of Proceedings ; b. Calendars ; c. Correspondence with other Universities; d. Calendars of other Universities. B. _. Chancellor and Dr. Hector (especially respecting negotiations with London University) ; b. Opinions of witnesses. (4.) Methods of examining and mode of arriving A. a. Instructions to examiners and supervisors ;b. Calenat results. dar, p. 68; c. London Calendar, p. 82, sqq. B. a. Chancellor, Registrar, examiners, and supervisors.

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Division of Subject. Sources of Evidence. (5.) Number and course of education of gradu- A. a. Calendar, p. 53 (unattached Btudents), p. 58 ates. (teachers), and p. 102, egg.; b. Calendars of other Universities (especially respecting unattached students). B. Opinions of witnesses. (6.) Classification of schoolmasters by means of A. Regulations of Education Department. University examinations. B. Inspectors, teachers, &c. (7.) Mode of prescribing text-books and selected A. a. Announcements in Calendars ;b. Minutes of Proportions of authors, &c. ceedings. B. a. Chancellor; b. Opinions of witnesses. 5. Honours and other distinctions. (1.) Standards. . A. _. Regulations, Calendar, 1874, p. 32; Calendar, 1878, p. 54; p. 68, sqq.; p. 76, sqq.; b. Examination papers ; c. Calendars of other Universities. B. Opinions of witnesses (especially respecting honours or distinctions in other Faculties— e.g., in Law). (2.) Period of examination. A. Regulations as under (1). B. Opinions of witnesses. (3.) Number of candidates up to present time. A. Calendar, p. 104. B. Registrar. (4.) Prizes. A. _. Calendar, pp. 58 and 111; b. Memorandum from Professorial Boards of Canterbury and Otago. B. Opinions of witnesses. 6. Calendar. (1.) Mode in which Calendar is compiled and A. Calendars. published. B. Chancellor and Registrar. (2.) Interpretation of regulations, and mode in A. Minutes of Proceedings. which it is made known to students. B. Chancellor and Registrar. VI. Effects produced by University on Education AUD ON THE PROFESSIONS. . 1. On secondary schools. B. Opinions of witnesses. 2. On colleges providing higher education. B. Opinions of Professors and others. 3. On the preparation of persons entering upon A. a. Melbourne Calendar, 1878, pp. 229, 231, 232 (reprofessions, specting barristers aud solicitors); b. Regulations of Education Department; c. Report of Committee on Professional and Technical Schools. B. Witnesses recommended by Committee on Professional and Technical Schools. VII. RESOURCE- AND EXPENDITURE. 1. Income and Expenditure. A. Annual Reports of University. 2. Fees paid by students. A. Calendar, p. 60. VIII. Changes in the Circumstances of the Colony since the Foundation of the University in 1868. 1. Population and its distribution. A. Census returns. 2. Facility of intercommunication. A. Railway Map of Colony. 3. Increase in primary and secondary education. A. a. Statistics of Colony; b. Educational Report, pp. 49 and 54. IX. General Suggestions for Alterations or. IMPROVEMENTS IN ORGANIZATION AND "WORKING. AFFILIATED INSTITUTIONS. I. Secondary Schools (including Auckland College and grammar school; wellington college ; Nelson College ; Christ's College, Canterbury; Church of England Grammar School, Auckland; and Wesley College, Three Rings). 1. History and objects. | Rfc f Committe6 on Secon(JarT Schools.) 2. Constitution and government. 3 3. Working and efficiency. (1.) Staff engaged in University work. (2.) Number of undergraduates at different times. (3.) Course of study and hours per week A. a. School prospectuses and reports; b. Examination devoted to it. papers, where procurable. (4.) Buildings and equipments. }> (5.) Lodging and supervision of students. B. a. Headmasters and staffs; b. Members of Boards of (6.) Examination and examiners. Governors, and others. (7.) Number of students who have entered for and who have gained degrees, senior scholarships, third-year scholarships, honours, prizes, &c. J 4. Educational effects. B. Opinions of witnesses. 5. Resources and expenditure. (1.) Income available for University purposes. (2.) Remuneration to teachers on account of University work. (3.) Scholarships, prizes, or other rewards A. Returns to be supplied by Secretaries or Registrars. for the advancement of University f- B. Opinions of witnesses as to the application and distrieducation. bution of funds. (4.) Provision for support of museums, laboratories, libraries, &c. (o.) Miscellaneous expenses. (6.) Costs of instruction to students. J 6. Relations to the University and to each other. B. Opinions of witnesses a3 to the propriety of combining secondary and University instruction in the same institution.

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Division of Subject. Sources of Evidence. 11. Theological Colleges (including Christ's College, Canterbury; St. John's College, Auckland; Bishopdale Theological College, Nelson ; and Wesley College, Three Kings). 1. History and objects. A. a. Ordinances relating to the foundation of Christ's College; b. Appendix to Journals of House of Bepresentatives, 1870, A.-3, pp. 58, 59; c. Appendix to Journals of House of Bepresentatives, 1869, A.-5, p. viii., and pp. 19-23, 30-32, 45, and 46; d. Minutes of Proceedings of Senate, 1876-78, relating to the affiliation of Theological Colleges; c. Returns to be obtained from the Principals or other officers. 2. Constitution and government. A. Documents and returns, as under 1. B. Witnesses, as under 1. 3. Working and efficiency. A. and 8., as under I. 3. (Subdivisions as under I. 3, above.) 4. Educational effects. 8., as under I. 5. Resources and expenditure. A. and 8., as under I. (Subdivisions as under I. 5, above.) 6. Relations to the University and to each other. B. Opinions of witnesses a_ to the propriety of the connection of Theological Colleges with University, and as to the functions which they ought to undertake. 111. Institutions founded solely tor the purpose op furnishing University Education, including Canterbury College and Otago University. 1. History and objects. A. a. Collected Ordinances, &c, printed for the Governors of Canterbury College; b. Canterbury College Calendar ; c. List of references to Parliamentary Papers and Otago Provincial Ordinances (see Appendix); d. Otago University Calendar; c. Minutes of Otago University Council (respecting applications for charter and affiliation to New Zealand University). B. a. Members of Board of Governors of Canterbury College; b. Members of Otago University Council; c. Hon. W. Gisborne, respecting applications for charter by Otago University. 2. Constitution and government. A. As under 1. B. _. As under 1; b. Professors, Lecturers, and others. 3. Working and efficiency. A. „. Canterbury College Calendar; b. Otago University (Subdivisions as under I. 3, above.) Calendar ; c. Aunual Reports of Otago University ; d. Examination papers; c. Returns to be obtained from Registrar of New Zealand University relating to subdivision (7), " number of students, &c." B. Opinions of witnesses. 4. Educational effects. B. Opinions of witnesses. 5. Resources and expenditure. A. a. Canterbury College Calendar; b. Collected Ordinances, Sec., printed for Governors of Canterbury College; s, Otago University Calendar; d. Returns to be obtained from the Registrars of Canterbury College and Otago University. B. Opinions of witnesses. 6. Relations to the University and to each other. B. Opinions of witnesses. REFERENCES TO PARLIAMENTARY PAPERS ILLUSTRATING THE HISTORY OF THE NEW ZEALAND UNIVERSITY. 1866. (Appended to Report of University Committee.) Oct. 31. Mr. Hislop, in report to Superintendent of Otago on Schools for the "Higher Education," suggests establishment of scholarships after the Tasmanian model, to be held at English Universities. 1867. July 24. h.r. Petition of Rev. F. C. Simmons, referred to Select Committee ... ... ... Hans. i., 153 Mr. Campbell suggests University ... ... ... ... ... ... „ i., 156 „ 30. I.e. Select Committee to confer with Committee of House of Representatives on scholarships and University or Universities ... ... ... ... ... ... ~ i., 212 Journals of House of Representatives, Appendix F.-l. Report. Oct. 3. h.r. Report referred to consideration of Government, especially as to endowments ... ... „ i., 1255 „ 8. I.e. Report adopted ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ i., 1297 1868. Journals of Otago Provincial Council, as under: April 14. Motion for Select Committee on proposal to establish a College ... ... ... Jrnls. 1868, p. 11 May 28. Report ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Reports of Sel. Com., p. 9 June 10. Resolutions in sense of report ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Journals, p. 126 Journals of Legislative Council, Appendix, p. 91, Papers on Scholarships and Endowments. July 30. h.r. Question: What steps to give effect ... ... ... ... ... ... Hans. ii., 177 Aug. 26. I.e. Similar question. Reply: Government will bring in Bill ... ... ... ... „ iii., 9 „ 27. I.e. University Endowment Bill, first reading ... ... ... ... ... „ iii., 44 Sept. 11. I.e. Second reading: Reference to Otago reserves and building ... ... ... ... „ iii., 290 „ 22. I.e. Third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ iii., 479 Aug. 28. h.r. Resolution to give effect to scholarship scheme. Debate. Amendment proposed to give £100 instead of £250 per annum, and to substitute Colonial for English University. Otago University desires to be tho University of New Zealand ... ... ... „ iii., 57 Sept. 4. I.e. Resolution in favour of establishment of New Zealand University. Mover suggests University with affiliated Colleges ... ... ... ... ... ... „ iii., 161 „ 29. h.r. Second reading University Endowment Bill. (Otago University frequently referred to) „ iv., 47 Oct. 13. h.r. Third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... _ iv., 285 „ 14. I.e. Amendments considered ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ iv., 300 „ 20. I.e. „ assented to ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ iv., 392 1869. Journals and Ordinances of Otago Provincial Council, as under: University Ordinance, first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... Jrnls., May 12 „ second reading ... ... ... ... ... ~, „ May 17

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1869. Journals, &c, Otago Provincial Council (continued) : University Ordinance, third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... Jrnls., May 31 „ as enacted ... ... ... ... ... ... Ordins., p. 1509 Beserves recommended, May 25 ... ... ... ... ... ... Jrnls., p. 56 Amendment (quorum) Ordinance ... ... ... ... ... ... Ordins., p. 1575 Endowment Ordinance (transferring endowments from Superintendent to University) ... „ p. 1583 July 6. I.e. Question as to action taken under "Endowment Act, 1868" ... ... ... Hans. v., 356 I.e. Motion for papers on same subject ... ... ... ... ... ... v., 357 1870. June 22. I.e. Question as to reserves ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ vii., 50 July 6. I.e. Select Committee on working of Endowment Act, and on Otago University Ordinances ... „ vii., 208 „ 13. h.r. Names added to Committee ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ vii., 380 „ 19. I.e. Eeport (interim) read ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Jrnls., p. 39 1. Immediate steps for Colonial University. 2. Immediate appointment of Trustees. „ 20. h.r. Eeport (interim) read ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Ham. vii., 541 „ 29. I.e. and h.r. Eeport with Bill ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ viii., 156 „ 29. I.e. and h.r. „ ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ viii., 166 Text of Eeport—Journals, July 29, 1870. Aug. 3. h.r. First reading University Bill ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ viii., 270 „ 9. h.r. Second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... viii., 380 The main features of the Bill were the creation of a New Zealand University, and its amalgamation with the University of Otago. (Hon. Mr. Fox) ... ... „ viii., 380 Other Universities contemplated. (Hon. Mr. Fitzherbert) ... ... ... „ viii., 381 "It was a body which should require no localization at all." (Mr. Tancred) ... ... „ viii., 381 Eeference to London and Queen's. (Mr. Rolleston) ... ... ... ... „ viii., 382 „ 17. h.r. Bill in Committee ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ix., 59 Mr. Eollestou's amendment carried as to filling up vacancies in Council ... ... „ ix., 70 Hon. Mr. Fox thereupon moved that the Chairman do leave the chair. Motion agreed to „ ix., 71 „ 24. h.r. Eesolution to recommit Bill ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ ix., 249 „ 26. h.r. Committee—Bill ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ ix., 324 „ 26. h.r. Third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ix., 328 „ 29. I.e. First and second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ ix., 369 „ 30. I.e. Third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ix., 406 1871. Journals, 1871, h.r. Appendix G.-8. Eclating to Establishment. G.-BA. Formation of Council. G.-88. Eclating to Establishment. H.-2. Eeport of Select Committee. Here G-.-8, No. 10, important as to reserves. Aug. 15. h.r. Notice to ask for correspondence—Government and Council ... ... ... ~ x., 7 „ 30. I.e. Motion for Select Committee, six months having elapsed without amalgamation ... „ x., 154 „ 31. I.e. Bequest for papers as to nominees declining ... ... ... ... ... „ x., 179 „ 31. h.r. Select Committee appointed ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ x., 181 Sept. 7. I.e. Motion to refer memorial of University of Otago to the Select Committee. Debate ... „ x., 300 „ 7. I.e. Ditto ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ~ x ., 333 „ 7. I.e. Motion to add to Committee. Debate. Withdrawn ... ... ... ... „ x., 333 Oct. 10. I.e. University Act Amendment, Bill, first reading ... ... ... ... ... „ xi, 181 „ 12. I.e. Second reading: Debate (24 pages) adjourned ... ... ... ... ... xi., 253 „ 13. I.e. Question referred to Attorney-General —Has Otago University power of conferring degrees? „ __■'~ 312 „ 13. I.e. Second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ~, ... xi., 315 „ 18. I.e. Bill in Committee ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xi., 385 „ 20. I.e. Third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ x i., 458 „ 5. h.r. Question as to accounts ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xi., 122 „ 6. I.e. Motion for Eeturn of Beserves ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xi., 147 „ 31. 1.0. Motion for papers ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ~, xi., 662 „ 20. h.r. Amendment Bill, first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xi., 459 „ 24. h.r. Ecpeal Bill, first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xi., 496 Nor. 13. h.r. Amendment Bill, second reading and Committee ... ... ... ... ... „ xi., 1041 Debate.—Amendment—" That it bo an instruction to the Committee to so amend the Bill as to make it repeal 'The University Act, 1870;' and the House gives this instruction on the understanding that, if during the present session the BiU is not passed, the House recommends the Government to withhold payment of any portion of the £3,000 subsidy to the New Zealand University, beyond tho amount required for (he payment of liabilities to date."—Agreed to. „ 13. A... Third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ~ xi., 1053 „ 13. I.e. Amendments to Bill, this day six months ... ... ... ... ... ~ xi., 1037 „ 13. h.r. Eepeal Bill discharged ... ... ... ... ... ... ... x j. 1061 1872. Journals of House of Eepresentatives, Appendix G.-13, including Eeport. July 24. h.r. Committee appointed to inquire into working of Act. Did not report ... ... „ xii., 74 „ 31. h.r. Mr. O'Eorke's motions. Debate adjourned ... ... ... ... ... „ xii., 175 Sept. 24. h.r. Debate resumed. Eesolutions —1. To fix seat in North Island; 2. To divide money between Dunedin and Auckland ;3. To teach as well as examine ... ... ~ xiii., 316 1873. Journals of House of Eepresentatives, Appendix H.-3, including Eeport ; 11.-3.., Eeport on Affiliated Institutions. Aug. 5. h.r. Question: " Will Government make University a teaching body, or let Otago hare half the money?" ... ... ... ... ... " ... ... ... xiv. 221 „ 12. h.r. Question: " Are the proceedings within the Act ?" ... ... ... ... „ xiv. 371 „ 20. h.r. This question referred to Attorney-Geueral ... ... ... .., ... ( , xiv., 551 Sept. 12. I.e. Opinion of Attorney-General in 1871 laid on table ... ... ... ... xv., 1055 „ 12. h.r. Questions: " Where founded ? Ifexistent?" ... ... ... ... ... xv., 1060 „ 15. h.r. Eesolution to devote reserves to local purposes ... ... ... ... ... ~ xv. 1091 1874. Journals of House of Eepresentatives, Appendix H.-3, Eeport; H.-3, Papers. July 10. h.r. " University Act, 1874," first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xvi., 47 „ 28. h.r. „ „ second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ); xvi., 262 Aug. 5. h.r. „ „ third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... n X vi., 441 6. I.e. „ „ first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... _. xvi., 455 11 11.1 ft ii ~ second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ~ xvi., 498 11 14. I.e. „ „ third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... _. X vi., 587 „ 21. I.e. Question: " Will Government recommend charter? " ... ... ... ... xvi., 80S 1875. Journals of House of Eepresentatives, Appendix, H.-4, Papers and Eeport; H.-4A, Papers as to Patent. 2—H. 1. (M. of Pro.)

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1875" «- ■• -. July 21. I.e. Amendment Act, first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... Hans, xvii., 3 „ 27. I.e. „ „ second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xvii., 66 „ 29. I.e. „ „ third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... xvii., 96 „ 29. h.r. „ „ first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xvii., 100 Aug. 3. h.r. „ „ second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xvii., 149 „ 5. h.r. „ „ third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xvii., 207 „ 5. h.r. Question: " What is being done about reserves ?" ... ... ... ... „ xvii, 196 Sept. 18. h.r. Question: As to Parliamentary representation ... ... ... ... ... „ xviii., 370 Oct. 1. h.r. Reserves Bill, first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xix., 144 „ 8. h.r. „ „ second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xix., 324 „ 8. h.r. „ „ third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xix., 351 „ 12. I.e. „ „ first reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xix., 392 „ 15. I.e. ~ ~ second reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ~ xix., 451 „ 16. I.e. „ „ third reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xix., 492 1876. Journals of House of Bepresentatives, Appendix, H.-8, Eeport, &c. ; H.-BA, Papers as to Patent. July 19. I.e. Question as to correspondence with ad eundem graduates. [Correspondence not known] „ xx., 513 Sept. 13. I.e. Bill to admit ad eundem graduates to Convocation... ... ... ... ... „ xxii., 219 „ 19. I.e. Second reading of Bill ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xxii., 359 „ 22. I.e. Committee on Bill ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xxii., 463 „ 27. I.e. Committee on Bill ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xxii., 526 „ 28. I.e. Thirdreading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xxii., 560 „ 28. h.r. First reading ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xxii., 568 Oct. 5. h.r. Second reading, and long debate ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xxiii., 49 „ 26. h.r. Bill discharged ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xxiii., 633 1877. Journals of House of Eepresentatives, Appendix, H.-6, Letter Patent; H.-7, Eeport. Aug. 14. h.r. Questions: " Will Government introduce a Bill vesting reserves ? Has Government defined reserves ?" ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „ xxiv., 369 On the motion of Professor Ulrich, seconded by Dr. Macdonald, the report was adopted. On the motion of Professor Brown, seconded by Dr. Macdonald, Resolved, That it be remitted to the University Committee to draw up questions for the examination of the Chancellor and the Eegistrar of the New Zealand University. On the motion of Professor Cook, seconded by Professor Brown, Resolved, That tho Secretary communicate with the Eev. B. W. Harvey, informing him that the University Commission had intended to seek evidence from him on sundry points, and asking him whether it will be within his power to give such evidence before he leaves the country. On the motion of Professor Cook, seconded by Professor Brown, the Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Wednesday, 29th Janitaey, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Bey. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. On the motion of Professor Brown, seconded by Dr. Wallis, the chair was taken by Mr. Cutten. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of Professor Brown, seconded by Professor Shand, Resolved, That the report of the Endowment and Finance Committee be adopted. On the motion of Dr. Wallis, seconded by Professor Ulrich, the Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Thuesday, 30th Januapy, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Bey. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. On the motion of Dr. Wallis, seconded by Professor Shand, the chair was taken by Professor Brown. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting wero read and confirmed. A letter was received from the Bey. B. AT. Harvey asking to be excused from giving evidence before the Commission, On tho ground of his intended early departure from Wellington. The Secretary was instructed to see Mr. Harvey, with the view of making an arrangement to obtain his evidence by means of correspondence. On the motion of Professor Cook, seconded by Dr. Macdonald, the Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at half-past 2 o'clock p.m.

Friday, 31st Jantxaey, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, nt half-past 2 o'clock. Present : Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Bey. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Sliand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. On the motion of Professor Cook, the chair was taken by Mr. Cutten. The Secretary reported that the Bey. B. W.Harvey desired to bo excused from giving evidence, on the ground of illhealth. On the motion of Professor Brown, seconded by Dr. Wallis, the Secretary was authorized to prepare a form of summons to he addressed to persons whose evidence might be required. The Secretary hud on the table a copy of " The New Zealand Institute Act, 1867." Professor Shand brought, up the report of the University Committee, submitting fhe o.uestions to be put to the Chancellor of the New Zealand University at his examination. The questions having been read, and some amendments made therein, On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Brown, the report as amended was adopted. On the motion of Professor Sale, seconded by Professor Ulrich, Resolved, That the Secretary be authorized to inform the Chancellor that the Commission is willing that tho Eegistrar should be present and give his assistance to the Chancellor, if he desire it, in his examination. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Cook, Resolved, That the Secretary have authority for the temporary employment of a messenger for the Commission. On the motion of Professor Brown, seconded by Professor Cook, Resolved, That the Bey. W. J. Habens, Professor Shand, Dr. Wallis, and the mover be appointed a Committee to draw up a scheme of business, and to report on Monday afternoon next. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, the Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at a quarter to 10 o'clock a.m.

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Satobday, Ist Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at a quarter to 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Drs. Hector and Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary having reported that Mr. 11. J. Tancred, Chancellor of the New Zealand University, and Mr. W. M. Maskell, Eegistrar of tho University, were in a_tendai.ee, those gentlemen were called in, and Mr. Tancred, being duly sworn, was examined. Professor Shand having asked the witness the question, "Was the University of Otago thereby deprived of the opportunity cf exercising the power conferred upon it under the Act ? " — The Eev. W. J. Habens moved, That the Chancellor be requested to withdraw, in order that the Commission may consider the question. The question having been put and agreed to, the Chancellor withdrew. The Eev. W. J. Habens moved, and Professor Brown seconded, That the next question on the list, as prepared by the Commission, be put before that of Professor Shand. The question having been put, the Commission divided, with the following result: —Ayes, 5 : Professor Brown, Professor Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens, Dr. Macdonald, and Dr. Wallis. Noes, 6 : Mr. Cutten, Dr. Hector, Mr. O'Eorke, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The motion was consequently negatived. The Chancellor having been called in, his examination was resumed. On the motion of Professor Brown, the Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Monday next at 10 o'clock a.m,

Monday, 3ed Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary read a letter from Mr. H. P. Maeklin, of the High School, Blenheim, offering to give evidence before the Commission. On the motion of Professor Saie, seconded by Professor Shand, Resolved, That the Secretary be instructed to inform Mr. Maeklin that the elementary school system will not come under the consideration of tho Commission, except in its relation to the secondary schools, and to request Mr. Maeklin to furnish a written statement of the heads under which he would desire to give evidence. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, seconded by Professor Sale, Resolved, That the report of the Committee on Secondary Education be adopted, as under Heads L, 11., and IV.; and that the consideration of the subject of Private Secondary Schools, as under Head 111., be deferred. The Eev. W. J. Habens brought up the report of the Committee on Order of Business, which was read as follows :— The Committee reports that, at a meeting held on the lst of February, 1879 (present: Professor Brown, Eev. W. J. Habens, Professor Shaud, and Dr. Wallis), it was resolved to recommend, — 1. That the Commissioner, proceed to Auckland not later than the 10th instant. 2. That Mr. O'Eorke and Dr. Wallis bo authorized to apply to the Government for leave to the Commissioners to be conveyed to Auckland in the " Hinemoa," and to hold their meetings in tho offices of the Supreme Court at Auckland. 3. That the Commissioners proceed without delay to obtain the remainder of the evidence of the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand, and the evidence of the Eegistrar. 4*. That, in the next place, questions be prepared for officers of affiliated institutions and of secondary schools, and for other witnesses who may be required to give evidence regarding professional and technical schools, and the general subjectmatter of the inquiry with which the Commission is charged. 5. That, in tho preparation of such questions, cure be taken to make them applicable to the mattevß which are to be inquired into at Auckland, including reserves and endowments there. 6. That the Secretary be instructed to endeavour to obtain, in time for the meetings at Auckland, returns to circulars addressed to persons residing there. On the motion of the Eov. W. J. Habens the report was adopted. Mr. Tancred was further examined. The Commission prepared certain questions to be put to the Eegistrar of the University at his examination, which were adopted. Two additional questions for the Chancellor were also prepared and adopted. On the motion of the Eev. W. J. Habens, seconded by Professor Brown, Resolved, That Professors Ulrich and Shand, and Drs. Macdonald and Hector, be a Committee to prepare, by to-morrow morning, questions to be put to the Chancellor as to the relations of the University on the one hand, and secondary and technical schools on the other. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, 4th Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Hon. W. Gisborne, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Drs. Hector and Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Professor Shand submitted certain questions to be put to the Chancellor of the University and others, which were read and adopted. Mr. H. J. Tancred was further examined. Mr. W. M. Haskell, Eegistrar of the University, was examined. On the motion of Professor Shand, seconded by Professor Cook, Resolved, That the following Committees be appointed to arrange preparatory work prior to the visit of the Commission to Auckland :— Endowments Committee : Mr. O'Borke, Professor Cook, Hon. W. Gisborne, and Mr. Cutten. Affiliated Institutions Committee : Professors Brown, Sale, and Ulrich, and Dr. Hector. Secondary Schools Committee : Dr. Macdonald, the Eev. W. J. Habens, and Professor Shand. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Wednesday, sth Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. W J. Habens (Secretary), Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary laid the following books upon the table : —l. Eeport of Eoyal Commissioners on the Universities of Scotland, 1878, Vol. 11. 2. Twenty-first Eeport of the Inspector on the Eeformatory and Industrial Schools of Great Britain, 1878. 3. Eeport of the President of Queen's College, Gal way, 1876-77. 4. Eeport of the President of Queen's College, Belfast, 1877-78. 5. Twenty-fifth Eeport of the Science and Art Department of the Committee of Council on Education, 1878. 6. Fifth Annual Eeport of the Board of Education for Scotland, IS7B,

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Professor Cook submitted a report from the Endowments Committee, whioh was ordered to be considered after the arrival of the Commission at Auckland. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Thuesday, 6th Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cooke, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professors Shand and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The terms of a circular requiring information from affiliated institutions and secondary schools were considered and agreed upon. On the motion of Professor Shand, Professor Cook was added to the Committee on Affiliated Institutions. The Commission adopted a short form of summons to be addressed to witnesses, requesting their attendance. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at tho Ministers' Room, Supreme Court, Auckland, on Monday, the loth February, at 10 o'clock a.m.

Monday, 10th Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman j Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. A letter was received from Mr. H. S. Chapman, Chancellor of the University of Otago, forwarding a memorandum of such information as would be comprised in bis next report to His Excellency the Governor. Professor Cook brought up the report of the Endowments Committee, which was read as follows : — The Committee appointed to inquire into the best mode of examining into the endowments made for secondary and higher education in Auckland recommends, — 1. That, in the ease of each endowment, it should be ascertained in whom the legal estate at present vests, and that such person should be examined with the view of ascertaining the purpose to which the proceeds of the endowment aro actually applied. 2. That it be ascertained whether any of the endowments were made for collegiate as distinguished from school purposes. 3. That, in the case of St. Mary's College, North Shore ; Wesley College, Three Kings; and St. Stephen's College, Mr. Aitken be employed to value the estates. 4. That Father Fynes, Vicar-General, be examined in respect of St. Mary's College. 5. That tho Superintendent of Wesleyan Missions (the Rev. T. Buddie), and Mr. Buddie, jun., solicitor, be examined respecting the endowments of Wesley College, Three Kings. 6. That Bishop Cowie, the Rev. R. Burrows, and Mr. R. C. Dyer, the Secretary of the Synod, be examined in respect of the endowments for St. Stephen's; and that tho Rev. R. Burrows and Colonel Haultain be examined respecting large reserves in tho Waikato for schools. 7. That inquiry should be made respecting the endowment of the Auckland College and Grammar School. 8. That inquiry should be made respecting the endowments of the Auckland Girls' High School, Thames High School, and Whangarei High School. On the motion of Professor Cook, the report was adopted. Mr. D. A. Tole, Commissioner of Crown Lands, was in attendance, and examined. On the motion of Professor Cook, seconded by Professor Brown, Resolved, That the Chairman be empowered to treat with Mr. Aitken, with a view to the valuation of the estates which form the endowments of St. Mary's College ; Wesley College, Three Kings ; and St. Stephen's College and School. After an adjournment, the Chairman reported that he had scon Mr. Aitken, who had informed him that his charge for the proposed valuation of endowments would be twenty guineas. On the motion of Professor Sale, seconded by Professor Shand, Resolved, That Mr. Aitken be employed to make the valuation for the sum mentioned ; and that his opinion be also obtained as to tho value of the Wesleyan endowment in Grafton Road, and the Roman Catholic reserve at Freeman's Bay. The Secretary was instructed to summon the following witnesses: —Bishop Cowie, the Rev. R. Burrows, the Hon. Colonel Haultain, and the Rev. T. Buddie, for Tuesday ; and Father Fynes for Wednesday. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 9 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, lim Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission metal the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 9 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary laid on tho table tho reports of the headmaster of the Auckland College and Grammar School for the year ending 3 lst December, 1874, and for the years 1875 and 1876; also a copy of a report by the examiner of the Churcli of .England Grammar School, Parnell. On the motion of Professor Cook, the Secretary was instructed to write to the Secretary of the Board of Governors of the Auckland College and Grammar School, requesting him to furnish tho Commission with copies of the recent reports of the examiners, the Rev. C. M. Nelson and Mr. H. il. Lusk. On tho motion of Professor Shand, the Rev. W. 3. Habens, Professor Sale, and the mover were appointed a Committee to inspect the Auckland College and Grammar School, and the Church of England Grammar School, and also to report on the buildings and playgrounds belonging to those institutions ; Dr. Hector and Professors Cook and Brown were appointed a Committee to inspect St. John's College, and Wesley College, Three Kings, and report on the buildings and playgrounds; and Mr. O'Rorke and Professor Ulrich were appointed a Committee to act in a similar manner with respect to St. Mary's College, North Shore. The Right Rev. Dr. Cowie, Bishop of Auckland, was in attendance, and examined. The Rev. R. Burrows was in attendance, aud examined. The Rev. T. Buddie was in attendance, and examined. The Secretary was instructed to summon tho following witnesses : —His Honor Mr. Justice Gillies and Dr. Campbell for Wednesday ; and Mr. P. Macrae and Mr. J. Adams for Thursday. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Wednesday, 12th Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed.

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His Honor Mr. Justice Gillies was in attendance, and examined. The Eev. H. J. Fynes was in attendance, and examined. Mr. J. Logan Campbell, M.D., was in attendance, and examined. The Hon. Colonel Haultain was in attendance, and examined. The Secretary read a telegram from the Secretary for Education, stating that the Eev. W. E. Mulgan's commission had been signed by the Governor, and that ho had been advised to join the Commission at Auckland. Letters were received from the Secretary of the Auckland College and Grammar School, enclosing tho following papers : —l. Copies of the Examiners' Ecports of the last Examination. 2. Statements of Endowments leased on 31st December, 1878. 3. Copy of grant made in favour of the school. 4. Schedule of investments and interest payable. On the motion of Professor Ulrich, Dr. Wallis was added to the Committee appointed to inspect St. Mary's College, North Shore. The Secretary was instructed to summon the following witnesses for Friday next: —Mr. J. A. Tole, Mr. E. J. O'Sullivan, Mr. F. L. Prime, Eev. Dr. Kinder, and Eev. C. M. Nelson. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Thursday, 13th Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. Parquhar Macrae, headmaster of the Auckland College and Grammar School, was in attendance, and examined. On the motion of Professor Brown, Resolved, That tbe governing bodies of tbe different institutions proposed to be inspected be written to, and requested to intimate to the respective headmasters the intention of the Commission. Mr. James Adams, 8.A., headmaster of the Church of England Grammar School, was in attendance, and examined. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Friday, 14th Feeruaey, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. A letter was received from the Eev. T. Buddie, Principal of Wesley College, forwarding copy of Sir George Grey's memorandum relative to grants for educational purposes in connection with the Wesleyan Church, and also a letter (on the subject of the endowments) published by Mr. Buddie three years ago. Letters were received from the headmaster of the Church of England Grammar School and the Principal of Wesley College in answer to the circular addressed to secondary schools. Mr. J. A. Tole, M.H.E., was in attendance, and examined. Mr. E. H. D. Ferguson was in attendance, and examined. Mr. E. J. O'Sullivan, Inspector of Schools, was in attendance, and examined. Mr. P. L. Prime was in attendance, and examined. The Secretary was instructed to procure from the Eegistry of Deeds Office information regarding the contents of the model trust deed referred to in the evidence of the Eev. Mr. Buddie. The Eev. J. Kinder, D.D., was in attendance, and examined. The Secretary was instructed to summon the following witnesses: —Por Monday, Mr. H. H. Lusk, Archdeacon Maunsell, LL.D., Eev. S. Edger, Hon. 1. Whitaker, Mr. D. L. Murdoch. Por Tuesday, Mr. N. Heath and Mr. F. Macrae. On the motion of Professor Shand, Resolved, That the Committee appointed to visit the Auckland College and Grammar School have also power to inspect the Girls' High School. On the motion of Professor Brown, Resolved, That the name of the Eev. W. E. Mulgan be added to the Committee appointed to inspect the Wesley College and St. John's College. A letter was received from tbe Commissioner of Crown Lands forwarding a return giving full particulars of all reserves (primary education reserves excepted) made within the Provincial District of Auckland for the promotion of education. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at tho same place on Monday next at 2.30 o'clock p.m.

Monday, 17th Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 2.30 o'clock p.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professor Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Shand and Sale, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The following letters were received : —Prom the Commissioner of Crown Lands, Wellington, giving particulars of reserves, in reply to circular of the 29th January. From the Chairman of School Commissioners for the Wellington District, giving particulars of reserves, in reply to circular of 29th January. From the Eegistrar of Canterbury College, in reply to circular of 29th January. From the Eev. T. Buddie, on behalf of the Trustees of Wesley College, in reply to circular of 29th January. Prom the Secretary of Board of Governors of Wanganui Collegiate School, in reply to circular of 29th January. Prom H. P. Maeklin, stating the nature of the evidence he desired to give before the Commission. From the Secretary to the Auckland College and Grammar School, forwarding plans of proposed new school building, and asking the Commission for its opinion on the alternative tenders for the erection of a building in wood and brick. Prom the Eev. T. Buddie, Principal of Wesley College, intimating that he would be glad to receive a visit from the Commissioners on Tuesday morning, at 11 o'clock. Prom W. Aitken, enclosing particulars of his valuation of the trust properties referred to him. On the motion of Professor Cook, Resolved, Tliat it be an instruction to the Committee appointed to inspect Wesley College, Three Kings, to visit the institution for that purpose on Thursday morning next, at 11 o'clock. On the motion of the Eev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the letter from the Secretary to the Auckland College and Grammar School, on the subject of the proposed new building, be referred to the Committee appointed to inspect the school. Mr. H. 11. Lusk was in attendance, and examined. The Eev. S. Pdger was in attendance, and examined. Mr. D. L. Murdoch was in attendance, and examined. The Hon. F. Whitaker, M.H.E., was in attendance, aud examined. The Secretary was instructed to summon the following witnesses for Tuesday afternoon next: —Mr. V. Eico (Secretary, Board of Education), Dr. Philson, and Mr. H. Brett. The Commission then adjourned, to meet again at the same plaec next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

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Tuesday, 18th Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professors Brown aud Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceediugs of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. A telegram was received from tho Eegistrar of Canterbury College, requesting to be informed when the Commission would arrive at Christchurch. The Secretary was instructed to reply that the Commission hoped to be in Christchurch early in April next. Mr. N. Heath, Headmaster of the Auckland Girls' High School, was in attendance, and examined. Mr. Farquhar Macrae was in attendance, and further examined. Mr. V. E. Bice, Secretary to the Board of Education, was in attendance, and examined. Mr. T. M. Philson, M.D., was in attendance, and examined. On the motion of the Eev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the following Wednesday and Thursday be set apart for tho inspection by the different Committees of tho institutions allotted to them. The Secretary was instructed to summon the following witnesses : —For Friday, Mr. W. St. C. T. Tisdall, Eev. S. Edger, Mr. P. Ma'crae, Mr. T. Kissling, Mr. A. Beetham, Mr. T. Peacock, Eev. C. M. Nelson, Mr. H. Brett. Por Saturday, Mr. J. F. Sloman, Mr. C. A. Eobertson. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Friday next at 10 o'clock a.m.

Feiday, 21st Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman : Professor Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. W. St. C. T. Tisdall was in attendance, and examined. The Eev. S. Edger was in attendance, and examined. Tho following letters were received : —From the Eegistrar of Canterbury College, giving particulars of reserves, in reply to circular of 29.h January. From the Secretary of the Auckland College and Grammar School, forwarding replies to schedule of inquiries addressed to secondary schools, copies of examiners' reports 1878 (2), examination papers set to pupils, and statement of receipts and expenditure, 1878. From the Secretary to School Commissioners, Napier, in reply to circular of 29th January in reference to reserves. From the Chairman of tbe Ashburton High School Board, in reply to circular of 291 h January. From the Commissioner of Crown Lands, Napier, in reply to circular of 29th January. From the Secretary of the Timaru High School Board, in reply to circular of 29th January. From the Chairman of Taranaki Education Board, in reply to circular of 29th January. Mr. Farquhar Macrae was in attendance, and further examined. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolved, That the Committee appointed to inquire into the Auckland College and Grammar School be relieved from the duty of reporting on fhe plans of the proposed new school building. A letter was received from the Secretary of the Church Property Trustees, Christchurch, forwarding particulars of reserves, in reply to circular, but stating that it was not considered necessary to include certain reserves in the return, because they were " a private endowment for ecclesiastical and educational purposes made by the Canterbury Association, and vested in the Church Property Trustees for those purposes." The Secretary was instructed to apply, through the Minister of Education, for the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown on the- question whether or not the reserves referred to would come within the scope of the Commission's inquiry. On the motion of the Eev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That Mr. O'Eorke, the Eev. W. E. Mulgan, and Dr. Wallis be appointed a Committee to observe the working of the University of Otago aud Canterbury College, to inspect the buildings attached to those institutions, and to report to the Commission. On tho motion of the Chairman, the name of the Eev. W. J. Habens was added to the Committee. On the motion of the Rev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the Committee which visited the Auckland College and Grammar School, and the Church of England Grammar School, Parnell, be also appointed to visit Wellington College and Nelson College. On the motion of the Eev. W. J. Habons, Resolved, That the returns received in reply to the circulars issued by tho Commission be printed, with a view to their being attached as an appendix to the report. The Secretary was instructed to have the returns tabulated. Mr. Theopbilus Kissling, Eegistrar of Deeds, was in attendance, and examined. Mr. T. Peacock, Mayor of Auckland, was in attendance, and examined. Tho Eev. C. M. Nelson, M.A., was in attendance, and examined. On the motion of Professor Cook, Resolved, That, whilst the Commission recognizes fully the great want which exists for suitable buildings for the Auckland College and Grammar School, it is unable to make any recommendation in anticipation of its report to the Governor. The Secretary was instructed to summon the following witnesses for next clay:—-The Ten. Archdeacon Maunsell, LL.D., tho Eev. E.Kidd, LL.D., Mr. Wm. Aitken, Mr. Phillips (Thames), Mr. H. Brett. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Sattjkday, 22nd Febeuaey, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professor Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of tho Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. J. F. Sloman, 8.A., was in attendance, and examined. Mr. 11. Brett appeared in answer to a summons requiring his attendance as a witness, and, having been sworn, was excused from giving evidence on the ground of urgent private business. Mr. C. A. Eobinson was in attendance, and was examined. Mr. G-. N. Phillips, Head Teacher of the Kauaeranga Boys' School, was in attendance, and presented the following memorial: — We, the undersigned, feeling a great interest in the advancement and completion of the State system of education, by means of primary, secondary, and university institutions, desire respectfully to lay before you our views upon tho subject. Tbe establishment of a High School upon the Thames, under the Act passed during last session, we feel assured will be of the utmost service in stimulating the cause of education in this district.; but, in order to render this school a flourishing and efficient institution, it should be placed in connection with a higher establishment in the form of a college ia Auckland affiliated to the New Zealand University, to which its more advanced pupils might go for the purpose of securing the advantage of a superior training, and the opportunity of studying for degrees and honours. It. is probable that the Board of Governors of the High School may not be able to establish the school as early as the circumstances of this place require, owing to a delay in having the endowments, promised under the Act, placed at their disposal. We would ask the good offices of tho Commission in pointing out to the Government tho necessity there is for assistance being granted to the Board at once.

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Provision being made in tho High School Act for the founding of scholarships open for competition to the pupils of the district primary schools, we suggest that a similar course should be adopted by the College; thus giving opportunities to suitable candidates who have passed through both the common and High School course, but may be unable to bear the expense of University education ; which would coaiplete the connection —it appears to us—it is so needful to maintain, between the first and final steps in the education of our youth of both sexes. Commending the foregoing suggestions to the attention of the Commission, —We have, &c, William McCullouch, Chairman of Board of Governors, High School. James Eensiiaw, Chairman of Kauaeranga School Committee. H. Chas. Lawloe, Chairman of Waiotahi School Committee. Thos. Spencer, Chairman of Parawai School Committee. Mr. Phillips was examined. The Yen. Archdeacon Maunsell, LL.D., was in attendance, and examined. The Eev. E. Eidd, LL.D., was in attendance, and examined. The Secretary was instructed to summon Mr. William Aitken to attend and give evidence on Monday morning, at 11 o'clock. On the motion of Professor Cook, Resolved, That the Commission visit the Auckland Museum and School of Art this afternoon. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Monday at 11 o'clock a.m.

Monday, 24tii February, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 11 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Korke, Chairman ; Professor Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary laid on the table the replies of the Chairman of the Trustees of the Church of England Gramm&r School, Auckland, to Schedule A, attached to letter of 17th February. Mr. William Aitken was in attendance, and examined. The Eev. E. Kidd, LL.D., was in attendance, and re-examined. Mr. D. A. Tole, Commissioner of Crown Lands, was in attendance, and re-examined. The Chairman brought up the report of the Committee on the Eoman Catholic School at Freeman's Bay. The Eev. W. J. Habeas brought up the following report from the Committee on the Auckland College and Grammar School, the Church of England Grammar School, and the Girls' High School: — The Committee appointed to visit the Auckland College and Grammar School, the Church of England Grammar School, and the Girls' High School, has seen those institutions at work, and reports as follows : — Auckland College and Grammar School. This school is at the present time somewhat unfortunately situated with respect to its buildings. There is no schoolbuilding properly so called, and the classes have to be taught in three separate houses rented for the purpose. The first, second, and third classes, constituting the upper school, meet in what was formerly the District Courthouse; the fourth class in an old chapel; and the fifth and sixth in schoolrooms adjoining tho Presbyterian Church. The buildings are, however, near enough together to admit of effective supervision by the headmaster. It ought to be borne in mind that, at the time of our visit, this school, in common with others on which we have to report, had scarcely recovered from the interruption caused by the Christmas recess. To this circumstance we may probably attribute the fact that we found no fixed time-table in use defining the work of the quarter. A temporary time-table for tho upper school, and designed to be brought into use on the day following our visit, was placed in our hands, and is appended to this report. We understand from the headmaster that the time-table is liable to occasional revision, in order to adapt it to the wants of the pupils in the school for the time being. In its present form it shows provision for instruction in the following subjects: Latin, arithmetic, algebra, geometry, trigonometry, mechanics, English (including reading, writing, composition, and grammar), geography, and history. We learn that the omission of physical and natural science from the programme is clue to the inconvenience arising from the want of proper buildings. None of the boys now- in the school learn Greek, and we observe that modern languages do not appear in the time-table. It seems that the arrangement and division of classes in the upper school vary from time to time, according to the attainments of tl_ senior pupils. The evidence given before the Commission shows that there are two undergraduates attending the school, who, with three other pupils not undergraduates, constitute the upper division of the first class. On the occasion of cur visit the undergraduates were absent, and this division of the class was, in Latin, reading the Second Book of the iEueid, in conjunction with the lower division of the same class. There was an absence of neatness iv the translation, but qi.estions on construction put by one of our number were in every case correctly answered, Tho only other class whose work in Lntin we had an opportunity of observing was the third, the members of which, numbering nearly thirty, were engaged in translating un ea^y passage from Bryce'a Latin Eeader. We beard the first class examined in Euclid, the upper division in the Sixth Book, and the lower in the Third Book. Simple deductions, proposed by one of our number, were fairly solved. Tho two divisions of the second class, admirably handled by the mathematical master, went through a series of arithmetical exercises in our presence, and appeared to us to be doing good work. In the upper school a part of the day was spent in written examinations in Latin. We noticed that in a few instances students who were exempt from Latin were at this time studying geometry and book-keeping. In the lower school, the fourth class (fifty-two boys) was occupied with a lesson in English history, which had evidently been very well prepared by the master. The fifth class (thirty-five in number) was receiving a lesson in reading and spelling, and the boys seemed to be thoroughly interested in their work. Tho lowest class (which contained thirty-seven boys, some of them very young, and many of them recently admitted into the school) was being instructed in geography. The master, an experienced teacher, was endeavouring to make the subject interesting to the pupils, and appeared to us to succeed in doing so. In all parts of the school good discipline prevails, and the staff is, in our judgment, thoroughly efficient and fully competent to perform the work undertaken by it. There is no doubt that the new building which it is proposed to erect, and which will be iv close proximity to a recreation-ground, will greatly promote the comfort of botli teachers and pupils; but we were agreeably surprised to find that even the present temporary arrangements do not seem to interfere seriously with the work now being done by the school, or to be in any degree detrimental to the health of the pupils.

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TEMPORARY TIME-TABLE. —UPPER SCHOOL.

Church of England Grammar School, Parnell. The school buildings are of wood, of small value, and very unpretending. They are somewhat out of repair, and want painting. There are three rooms —a large room with a smaller room at each end. As to size, they are large enough for the numbers at present attending, with the present staff and the consequent arrangement of classes. The ground is uneven and ill-adapted for purposes of recreation, but well suited for a master's residence or for more than one if required, and situated in what appears to be a very healthy position. The want of a play-ground is to somo extent counterbalanced by the proximity of the Domain, which is distant only a few chains. There are about seventy boys attending, divided into three classes, taught by the headmaster and two assistants. In some subjects each of these classes is subdivided, and the differences of attainment in each class are such that, if it were possible to employ a larger staff, it would be desirable to divide the boys into at least five classes instead of three. The discipline in the highest and lowest classes is fair, but in the middle class unsatisfactory, owing probably to the inexperience of tho master temporarily in charge. The studies carried on in the school are determined in some measure by the requirements of the Civil Service examinations, at which the best boys will probably stand a good chance of passing at the end of the year; but the work of the school as a whole is certainly below that of an ordinary good grammar school. The subjects belonging to what is known as the "modern side" receive considerable attention, and the appliances for instruction in this department, though simple, appear to be sufficient for the purpose. Much pains is taken with elocution, and several of the younger boys read in our presence with intelligence and good enunciation. On the whole there seemed to be a gentlemanly tone in the school. The headmaster is evidently an enthusiastic teacher, and is competent to deal with some of the scientific subjects. The school further enjoys the advantage of having the services of an excellent teacher of botany. Girls' High School. The school is very insufficiently accommodated in rented buildings in Upper Queen Street. The situation is all that could be desired ; but the building is not large enough for more than half of the two hundred pupils now in attendance. The want of space is the great defect; but, owing to the very careful attention paid to ventilation and cleanliness, the rooms, though crowded, appear to be by no means unhealthy. There is sleeping accommodation for about seventeen pupils, and, considering the character of the building, the dormitories are in excellent condition. There seems to be the most perfect discipline and order throughout the school, and the cheerful diligence of all the girls, as well as of their teachers, is beyond all praise. The time devoted to work is strictly limited to five hours a day, and the master reports (as we think, wisely) that he finds it very necessary to insist on this limitation, and to confine the home work to so much as can be well done in an hour and a half. The time-table (which is already before the Commission) appears to have been arranged with considerable skill, and is strictly observed ; and notes of the work of each hour are carefully recorded, and used by the headmaster as his guide in setting papers for frequent periodical examinations. The curriculum, which is planned to extend over eight years, includes Latin, Euclid, and algebra, besides modern languages, and the other subjects usually taught in ladies' schools. A considerable number of the older pupils intend to become teachers, and we see great reason to hope that the institution will be very useful in preparing candidates for future work as mistresses of primary schools. Professor Cook brought up the following report from the Committee on St. John's College, and Wesley College, Three Kings:— The Committee appointed to visit and report upon St. John's College, and Wesley College, Three Kings, beg to submit the following report: — St. John's College was visited on Wednesday, the 19th inst. There was no opportunity of seeing the students actually at work, as Wednesday afternoon is observed as a half-holiday, a fact of which the Committee was previously unaware. As, howover, the number of students is so limited, the teaching which each individual receives must more nearly resemble that given by a private tutor than that given by a schoolmaster or lecturer to his class. There were seven students, the youngest of whom was seventeen years of age : all of them are foundation scholars of the College, the value of their scholarship being

Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. En ID AT. I. a B II. A B Latin Algebra > Geography Arithmetic Latin Geometry Lai in Algebra Latin Geometry Latin. Trigonometry. English Composition. Grammar Geography Grammar III. Arithmetic History Arithmetic Arithmetic. I. A B II. A Algebra Latin J Arithmetic Writing Mechanics Latin Latin Trigonometry Algebra Latin Mechanics. Latin. History Arithmetic History Latin. B III. Reading Arithmetic Writing Reading. I. A B II. A B Latin Latin Exercise ... \ Reading History j Arithmetic Algebra Latin Geography Trigonometry Latin J "Writing Latin '• Algebra Geometry Latin Geography ( I Trigonometry. Latin. > Writing. Latin. III. I. A B II. A B ? History Latin Algebra Latin Geography Latin Arithmetic Latin History Latin Algebra Latin Geography Latin Algebra Latin Latin. Latin. Arithmetic. English Composition. III. I. A 35 II. A B J Grammar Geometry Latin Latin Latin Latin Grammar Grammar Algebra Latin Arithmetic Latin Latin Grammar English Composition. Algebra. Arithmetic. Arithmetic. ni.

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£60 por annum, which exactly covers the co9t of hoarding and of tuition. Each student is supposed to have a separate room for his own use, which, however, serves hoth as bedroom and as study. But the rooms seem to be quite large enough for these purposes, and they are clean and airy. The two youngest students have at present only one room between them. The buildings are partly of wood and partly of stone, and contain a master's lodge, dining-hall, chapel, class-rooms &c., besides the private rooms of the students above alluded to. There is on the premises accommodation for about twenty students, but several of the rooms which are not now in use would require to be repaired to make them habitable. Of the College estate about 40 acres has been reserved for the immediate use of the College ; a considerable portion of the remainder has been let for agricultural purposes. The master informed us that none of the students were at present members of the University. There appear to be only two class-rooms, which afford accommodation sufficient for tho present number of students. The Committee visited Wesley College, Three Kings, on the morning of Thursday, the 20th inst.; they were accompanied by Mr. O'Rorke and Professor Ulrich. When (lie Committee arrived, the Principal (the Rev. T. Buddie) was engaged in giving the Maori pupils, six in number, a Bible lesson. The pupils read passages in Maori, and translated it into .English ; they also read passages from the English version, and translated it into Maori. At the conclusion of the Bible lesson, ono of our number set the pupils sums in multiplication and division, which they did with moderate success. One of the English students then asked them a few questions in elementary geography, and afterwards they sang a couple of sacred songs along with three of the English students. They are taught the rudiments of music on Curwen's Tonic Sol-fa system. Of these six Maori pupils, the youngest was fourteen years of age ; three of them appeared to be about twenty. In personal appearance, they were as clean and well-dressed as European youths of the same age attending school or college. The Principal informed us that some of these youths would probably become teachers of their fellowcountrymen. We saw six English students, all of them young men and candidates for the Wesleyan ministry. Three of them are new students, and we saw nothing of their work: the other three did some elementary Greek under the direction of Br. Eidd whilst we were present; but they appear to be quite beginners. There seem to be only two class-rooms, and, of these, one is quite small. The Maoris all sleep in a large dormitory ; the English students Bleep two in each room. All the bedrooms, and also the Maori dormitory, were very clean and airy. In addition to these class-rooms and sleeping-rooms, there are in the main building a dining-room, kitchen, and servants' bedrooms. The Principal resides iv an entirely separate building. All the buildings are of wood. Of the estate in the neighbourhood, about 4G acres are reserved for the immediate use of the institution ; the whole of the remainder is let. The Chairman brought up the following report from the Committee on St. Mary's College, North Shore :— The Committee, consisting of Professor Ulrich, Br. Wallis, and Mr. O'Rorke, appointed to inspect St. Mary's Roman Catholic School building, near the Takapuna Lake, and the endowment in the neighbourhood, granted to the Roman Catholic body in the year 1850, have the honour to report, — 1. That no school is at present held in the building, and that the reason assigned for there being no school is the inadequacy of the funds arising from the endowment, the rental of the estate being only some £40 per annum. 2. The Committee ascertained the position and nature of the land. It has none of the value attached to building allotments near a city, or to ordinary suburban lands. It is simply rural land, separated from tho City of Auckland by the Waitemata Harbour. There is no doubt, however, that if this estate of 370 acres were brought into proper cultivation an increased annual revenue would be insured ; but at present the aspect of the place is one of neglect. The tenants at present hold only from year to year, awaiting some fresh disposition of the property. 3. St. Mary's School is built of bluestone, with walls about two feet thick, two storeys high, with a basement running the whole length and breadth of the building. The clear length of the building is 72 feet, by 21 feet wide. The roof is of shingle, and is much out of repair. There are two chimneys at the gable-ends, with fireplaces in the lower and upper storey. On the ground floor there is a large room 36 feet by 21 feet, with a fireplace. The other half is subdivided into five small rooms, passage, and staircase, the largest room being IS feet by 9 feet, used as a dining-room. The fireplace is in a room 11 feet by 14 feet, probably intended for a kitchen. The upper storey is occupied by a central hall, 54 feet by 21 feet, with a staircase opening into the hall. At each end of the hall arc two small rooms, 12 feet by 9 feet and 9 feet by 9 feet, in the larger of which, on each side, is a fireplace. All the interior of the house is very much out of repair, and looking very dingy. The basement storey seems to have been used as a cowshed or stable. 4. The rents that have accumulated since the school was closed amount to about £200. This sum, with a small exception,* is reserved, pending the arrival of a new Roman Catholic bishop, who has been expected for the last four years. The Committee, while reporting that the terms of the trust, as regards the keeping of a school, are not at present fulfilled, cannot shut their eyes to the fact that all the religious and educational institutions about Aucklaud, which were so largely intended for the benefit of the Maori race, received such a shock from the Native rebellion as will require considerable time to repair the evils that the war entailed upon those establishments. The Chairman brought up the following report from the Committee on St. Stephen's School, Parnell: — . The Committee, consisting of Professors Cook and Ulrich, Rev. Mr. Mulgan, and Mr. O'Rorke, inspected the St. Stephen's School at 2 o'clock on Thursday, 20th February, 1879. The pupils in attendance were 52 Maoris and 7 Europeans. They were engaged in writing from dictation, and the Committee were much struck with the proficiency displayed by the pupils iv both writing and spelling, especially the former. The Committee also witnessed the testing of the boys' knowledge of arithmetic, and were pleased with the results. Among the novelties of the institution was the teaching of ten young Maori pupils and one European by a Maori pupilteacher. All the instruction is carried on in the English language. The Committee were satisfied with the efficiency of the two teachers, Mr. Bavies and Mr. Robertshaw, and with the interest taken in the general management of the school by Archdeacon Burrows. The school was held in a fine large room recently erected ; tho dining-room, too, is spacious ; and the bedrooms were tolerably tidy. The buildings generally appeared suitable, and in fair repair. The Committee are of opinion that the objects of tho trust are being fairly carried out, and that the estate is being turned to the best advantage by letting it iv building allotments whenever a demand arises. Professor Ulrich brought up the following report from the Committee appointed to visit the Museum :— The Committee appointed to visit the Museum have to report that they discharged that duty, and think it a noteworthy matter that the liberality of two Auckland citizens has embellished the institution with a set of models of antique statuary, properly set up. The statues were supplied by Mr. Thomas Russell, and the setting-up by Br. Campbell. The latter gentleman also provides a school of drawing, under the charge of Mr. Watkins, for all who are willing and competent to attend. The rules for admission and instruction are appended. The institution is at present dependent on voluntary subscriptions, but the sphere of its usefulness would be much extended if there was a Government grant to enable the institution to have such an officer as a taxidermist, and those others usually connected with museums in other places. School of Design, Auckland Institute. — Memorandum ly Mr. Cheeseman, Curator. 1. The instructor is Mr. Kenneth Watkins. He holds a certificate from some institution in London —I believe the South Kensington School of Besign. He is well known as a teacher of drawing in Auckland. 2. The school meets every Wednesday and Saturday, the hours being from 9.30 a.m. to 12.30 p.m. 3. Thirty-one pupils have passed the examination required before entrance. The average attendance is from IS to 20. 4. The instructor's salary and all other expenses connected with the school are borne by Br. J. L. Campbell; the Institute supplying the room in which the school is held. * Vide Father _. ynea's evidence. 3—H. 1. (M. of Pro.)

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On the motion of tho Rev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the various reports just brought up be entered upon the minutes. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at tho same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, 25th February, 1879. The Commission met at the Supreme Court Buildings, Auckland, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Professor Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of Professor Cook, Resolced, That the Secretary be instructed to apply to the Minister of Education with the view of obtaining the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown as to the effect of the Wesleyan model trust deed on the original grants and the trusts contained therein. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolced, That the Secretary be authorized to pay the sum of £2 as a gratuity to the messenger. On the motion of Professor Cook, the Commission adjourned, to meet again at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, on the 24th March next, at 11 o'clock a.m.

Monday, 24th Maeoii, 1879. The following Commissioners met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 11 o'clock a.m. : —Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. There being no quorum, the Commissioners present agreed to adjourn, to meet again at Nelson, on Saturday, the 29th. March, at 4 o'clock p.m.

Saturday, 29th March, 1879. The Commission met at Panama House, Nelson, at 4 o'clock p.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. \V. E. Mulgan, Profes.ors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary reported that a large number of returns to circulars had been received, and that many of them were in the hands of the printer, and others were being prepared ; that some of the returns had been supplied in such a form as to necessitate considerable correspondence ; and that there were returns which had not yet been received. The Secretary laid on the table the opinion of the Solieitor^General on the question of whether endowments made by the Canterbury Association came within the terms of the Commission. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolved, That the Secretary have authority for the payment of the sum of £8 3s. to the Registrar of Beeds, Auckland, for a copy of the Wesleyan model trust deed. The Secretary read a letter from the Colonial Secretary's Office as to the extent and locality of all reserves set apart by the Government for the purposes of University education. The Secretary also read a memorandum which he had drawn up on the same subject. A letter was read from the Secretary of the Nelson College, intimating that it did not appear to the Governors of the College that the institution came within the meaning of schools endowed by Government grants out of public estate, and forwarding the opinion of the solicitor for the College on the subject. The Secretary's reply to the letter was also read. On the motion of Professor Shand, Resolved, That a copy of the Secretary's memorandum on the subject of University reserves be forwarded to the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand. It was resolved that tbe following witnesses be summoned for Monday next: —The Bishop of Nelson, at 10 o'clock ; Mr. O. Curtis, M.H.E.., at 12 o'clock ; and tho Rev. J. C. Andrew, at half-past 2 o'clock. The Commission adjourned, to meet again in tho Jury Room, Supreme Courthouse, Nelson, on Monday next, the 31st instant, at 10 o'clock a.m.

Monday, 31st Mabch, 1879. The Commission met at the Jury Room, Supreme Court, Nelson, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Korke, Chairman ; Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Right Rev. the Bishop of Nelson was in attendance, and examined. Mr. Oswald Curtis, M.H.R., was in attendance, and examined. Mr. J. W. Barnicoat was in attendance, and examined. Mr. Robert Pollock was in attendance, and examined. The Secretary was instructed to summon the following witnesses for next day : —Rev. J. C. Andrew, at 10 o'clock; Mr. 11. C. Baniell, at 12 o'clock; Mr. Percy Adams, solicitor, at 3.30 o'clock. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Tuesday next at 10 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, Ist April, 1879. The Commission met in the Jury Room, Supreme Court, Nelson, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale.and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read aud confirmed. The Rev. J. C. Andrew, M.A., was in attendance, and examined. Mr. H. C. Bauiell was in attendance, and examined. Mr. Percy B. Adams was in attendance, and examined. On the motion of the Rev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the Chairman and the Rev. Mr. Mulgan be appointed to visit Bishopdale College, and that the Bishop be informed that the Commission desires that the institution should be so visited. Mr. Alexander Mackey was in attendance, and examined. Mr. J. S. Browning was in attendance, and examined. On the motion of the Chairman, Professor Sale was appointed to visit Motueka for the purpose of making inquiries relative to the Motueka Trust School and Estate. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Thursday next at 4 o'clock p.m.

THURSDAY, 3rd AruiL, 1579. The Commission met in the Jury Boom, Supreme Court, Nelson, at 4 o'clock p.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Professor Sale reported as follows : —ln accordance with the instructions of the Commission, I yesterday visited tho Motueka Native School. On my arrival I called at once on Mr. Baker, the teacher. The children were not all at the school whon I arrived, but subsequently I saw all of them. There were two boys aged about fifteen and thirteen respectively, and three girls, aged about nine, eight, and seven respectively, all Maoris. The children looked clean, healthy, and happy. I

did not see them resolving in itruetioii, and therefore I would refer the Co ___:sskr_ to Mr. B.ik.r for evidence as to what is done in the school. The schoolhouso is at present receiving additions, in consequence of which a portion of it cannot at present be made use of. But when the alterations now in progress arc completed there will be ample accommodation for all the children who are likely to be sent to the school; thorn will be two large bedrooms, in addition to a largo schoolroom which is now in use. Tho schoolroom, however, will require lining, and I understand from Mr. B ikor that at present there are no funds for that purpose. Tiie schoolroom is used for meals and general purposes as well as for school work. During my visit, the principal Native in the district, a woman named Ramiri, called. She inquired what was the object of my visit, and wished particularly to know whether it was in connection witii the question as to the Native title to the Motueka Trust Estate ; but finding that my inquiries referred only to the school, and to tho mode in which the estate was administered, she said she had nothing to say on that subject. She was quite contented with the institution as a school. I had a long conversation witli Mr. Baker, chiefly on the difficulties which he exparienced in making the school a successful institution. I refer the Commission to Mr. Baker for evidence on this matter. I subsequently visited Mr. Greenwood, the bailiff of the estate. He informed me that the whole of the estate was leased and was in good condition. He was unwilling to give a valuation of the different sections, but promised to compile and forward to the Commission a list of the sections, showing the valuation put upon them by the Road Board valuator, which, he added, could be depended upon as a fair valuation. He was unable to furnish me with a copy of the conditions of the leases, and referred me to Messrs. Adams, solicitors, for information as to the conditions under which the lessees could claim renewals of their leases. Ho also gave me an estimate of the damage which certain sections in the estate had suffered from the floods of 1877. This estimate I hand in. I also hand in a copy of a report on the Motueka School for the year 1876, drawn up by the Inspector of Native Schools, the Rev. J. W. Stack, and included among the papers printed in the Appendix to tho Journals of the House of Representatives for 1876. On the motion of Professor Sale, Mr. Joseph Baker was called in and examined. The Secretary read the correspondence which had taken place relativo to the proposed visit to Nelson College by the Committee appointed for that purpose. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolved, That tho Commission, having considered the answer received from the Secretary of tho Nelson College, and tho further letter received from the Principal, deems it inexpedient that any members of the Commission should visit the College in any other capacity than that of Commissioners; and that the Committee appointed to visit Nelson College be relieved from that duty. The Secretary was instructed to summon Mr. M. Campbell as a witness for next, day. The Committee adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 9.30 olelock a.m.

Ekiday, 4m Apeii,, 1879. The Commission met in tho Jury Room, Supreme Court, Nelson, at 9.30 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman; Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. Matthew Campbell was in attendance, and examined. Mr. James T. Catley was in attendance, and examined. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, on the following day at 2.30 o'clock p.m,

Satubday, sth April, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, "Wellington,-at 2.30 o'clock p.m. Present : Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman; Hon. W. OKsborne, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and conGrmed. Professor Sale brought up the following report from the Committee appointed to observe the working of Wellington College : — Before referring to the condition of this school as it existed at the time of our visit, we would draw the attention of the Commission to the report furnished, at the request of the Minister of Education, on the 18th of July last year, by the Rev. W. J. Habens, and printed in the Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives for 1878. The following remarks may be considered as supplementary to that report. Since the date of Mr. Habens's visit, the Governors of the College, with a view of effecting changes in the organization of the school, have thought proper to give notice of dismissal to all the masters. They have since reappointed the headmaster, Mr. Wilson, at a reduced salary. In the caso of the other masters no definite arrangement has yet been made. Since tho commencement of tho present term one of the junior masters has been obliged to give up work from ill-health, and it. would appear that the Governors, from motives of economy, do not intend at present to make any appointment iv his place. Owing partly to this circumstance, the headmaster has found it. necessary to rearrange tho classes ; it does not appear, however, that any serious inconvenience has resulted from this rearrangement, and we are not prepared to say that the staff at present employed is insufficient. There are at present no undergraduates in the College, nor is there any sixth form. The headmaster instructs the fifth, fourth, and third forms in Latin, English, and history. The second master instructs the second and first forms in the same subjects. Latin forms part of the work all through the school. At present no Greek is taught. Provision is made, however, in the time-table for teaching Greek as an alternative with German. The mathematical master undertakes the whole of tho instruction in arithmetic and mathematics. The first form learns arithmetic only. The mathematical course commences in the second form, which receives instruction in Euclid and algebra. Instruction in French is given to all the classes throughout the school, and German is taught as an optional subject to boys in the fifth form. We did not see the classical work of the fifth form, but we were informed that this form consisted of two students, who were reading Horace's Odes. Tbe fourth form, consisting of eight students, wero reading the Second Book of Virgil's ___neid. This form is, in reality, the same as that which at the time of Mr. Habens's visit was called the lower fifth. We did not see the Latin composition either of this form or o£ the fifth, this part of their work having been temporarily interrupted, owing to the changes now taking place in the school. We were present while the fourth form "were engaged in translating Virgil, and judging from their translations, and from their answers to various questions on grammar and construction, we should say that their work was quite equal to what may fairly be expected from boys in the fourth form in a good grammar school. We .aw the second form engaged in translating from English into Latin simple sentences taken from an elementary book, while the members of the first form were engaged in the same room, some of them in a writing lesson, others in preparing ol her work. \._ did not see any of the Latin work of the third form, but we were informed that they were reading Cresar. In the mathematical department the classification was not exactly the same as in the classical and English subjects; but, as the chief difference consisted in a greater subdivision of the classes, the general order of the school was not materially interfered with. Only one boy, forming the highest class, was doing such work as is usually done in the higher mathematical classes of a grammar school. This boy had read all the mathematical work prescribed for the University examination for junior scholarships, and was reading with the view of presenting himself at the next junior scholarship examination. When we visited the school, he was engaged on exercises taken from Todhunter's larger Trigonometry.

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On the day of our visit the other mathematical classes wero receiving instruction in Euclid, the more advanced boys being engaged on Book IV., and the rest on Book I. The time at our disposal was too short to enable us to pronounce decidedly upon the quality of the work, but it seemed to us to indicate that in some cases there had been insufficient preparation on the part of the pupils at home. We regret to say that in modern languages we only saw the work of the lowest form. These boys were learning the French accidence, and, allowing for the very short time which had elapsed since they began the subject, they seemed to be making good progress, and to be interested in their work. Turning to the subject of natural science, we were present while the fourth form were receiving a lesson in botany. Instruction was given by means of specimens dissected by the students, under the guidance of the lecturer. From what we observed we received the impression that the study of natural science was probably the strong point in the work of the school. The instruction was admirably given, and almost all the boys took a marked interest in their work. The classroom was well supplied with charts and illustrations, and contained cabinets filled with collections in several branches of natural science, which were amply sufficient for the purposes of instruction, and which, to a large extent, had been formed by former pupils. Although in some parts of the school work a want of vigour and animation was apparent, it is probable that, to some extent at all events, this was due to the unsettled condition of the school, to which we have already referred. Rev. W. J. Habens to the Son. the Minister of Education. Sir— ' Wellington, 18th July, 1878. _ The Governors of the Wellington College having requested you to appoint some person or persons to examine into and report upon the working of the College, you were pleased to appoint me to conduct tho inquiry, and I now have the honour to submit the following statement: — I am much indebted to tho Governors and to their Secretary, who have placed at my service, for the purposes of this inquiry, all papers that were likely to be of use to me; and I desire to acknowledge my obligations to the Principal (Kenneth Wilson, Esq.) for the courtesy with which he received mo on the occasion of my visit to the school, for the readiness and fulness of his replies to my numerous questions, and for the arrangements lie made to give me an opportunity of seeing the school at work. I find that it has been the aim of the Governors to make provision both for secondary education, and for the higher education of the College or the University. The institution has apparently been moulded into its present form by the endeavour to compress the two Btages, the secondary and the higher, into the ordinary period of school life, and to carry on the work of both stages at the same time, in the same school, and with a staff of instructors scarcely exceeding the number which would be required in an ordinary grammar school. The only teacher upon the staff whose services would not be necessary for the work of a grammar school is tho Professor of Natural Science (T. Kirk, Esq., F.L.S.). The only work done by the College out of school hours is the work of the evening classes and of a Saturday class, as follows : —The Mathematical Master conducts an evening class for mathematics attended by four persons, and ono for classics at which three attend ; the Modern Language Master has a class for French and one for Gorman, attended by three and two persons respectively; and the Mathematical Master has an arithmetic class, composed of three girls, which meets on Saturday. The Principal is prepared to give lectures in English, and evening classes to be taught by tho Professor of Natural Science have been proposed ; but at present no students .avail themselves of these arrangements. I learn that of the persons attending the evening classes only one is an undergraduate member of the University. There are also four undergraduates whose names are on the books of the College, and who are nominally keeping terms, but who do not attend lectures, and who receive no instruction from the College. With the exceptions which I have now stated, the operations of the College are confined to the work of the school. In the school there are two boys who have matriculated to tho University : one of these is in the sixth form, and the other in the upper fifth. The work of the sixth form is designed to constitute a preparation for the passing of the examination for the degree of Bachelor of Arts in the University of New Zealand. In this form there are at present two pupils, of whom one is au undergraduate. The upper fifth, in which is one undergraduate, consists of five boys who are preparing for the Senior Cambridge Local Examination ; and the lower fifth, with eight boys, is preparing for the corresponding Junior Examination. lam informed that the practice is to enter for these Cambridge Examinations as many boys from the fifth form as are deemed likely to secure a " pass." The fifth and sixth forms are under the direct care of the Principal; but all the boys in this upper part of the school receive instruction in physical science from Professor Kirk, who spends nine hours a week with them, and in mathematics they are divided into classes according to their attainments, and taught by the Mathematical Master. Greek, which is an optional subject as an alternative with German, is taught by the Second Master, and French and German are the special province of the Modern Language Master. In the forms below the fifth, natural science and Greek are not taught. The fourth form (eleven boys) is reading C_esar, and is learning the rules of Latin syntax : Arnold's Latin Prose Composition is also in use. In the third form (fifteen boys), the text-books are the Latin Primer, Arnold's "Henry's First Latin Book," and Valpy's Delectus ; in tho second form (twenty-four boys), the Primer and Delectus ; aud in the first form (seven boys), the Primer only. Theso forms, like the fifth and sixth, arc broken up into classes under the Mathematical Master, according to tho attainments of the individual pupils. Tho third and fourth forms are in the charge of the Second Master, and the first and second aro under the care of the Assistant Master. To all but the first form lessons in French are given by the Modern Language Master. In all tho forms a sufficient amount of time appears to be devoted to the subjects which fall under tho general head of English. From tins description of the organization of the school it is apparent that a boy entering the first form, and passing through all the other forms, including tho sixth, is expected to acquire a sufficient knowledge of the ordinary branches of » plain English education, and in addition to became acquainted with two modern and one ancient or with one modern and two ancient languages, with two or three branches of natural science, and with mathematics as far as conic sections. Moreover, he is expected to be able, at the close of his school course, to give such evidence of his proficiency iv several of the subjects which he has studied as is involved in passing the examination for the degree of Bachelor of Arts in the University. The case being thus stated, I find my attention diverted (necessarily, as I think) from the consideration of the efficiency of the masters, or the sufficiency of their numbers, to the discussion of the question of the possibility of realizing the ideal which is set before them. I do not doubt tho possibility of imparting to the fifth and sixth forms such a knowledge of certain branches of natural science as is required for the scholarship examinations, and (so far as these subjects are concerned) for the degree of Bachelor, and indeed the record of scholarships awarded shows that in this department the College has attained to high distinction. But Ido not see how due attention to what ought to be the proper work of the sixth form in classics is compatible with preparation for the degree, nor how such preparation as a candidate is fit to receive at that stage can afford any reasonable hope of securing a place at the honour examinations. So, also, honours in mathematics are manifestly beyond tiie reach of candidates who have no instruction beyond that, good as it is as far as it goes, which is provided by the College. It is perhaps natural that, while there is no separate provision made in Wellington for superior education, the Governors of the College should endeavour to supply the lack as well as they can with the means at their disposal; but at the same time it is much to be regretted that in any institution the preparation of candidates for a degree should be of such a kind as to give them no prospect of anything better than a bare "pass," and that time should be spent in the laborious reading of books set for examination which would be far better spent in the study of a larger number of easier authors, and in tho acquisition of a good vocabulary and of a ready command of common idioms. Judging from what I observed when I heard the upper fifth readiug Coesar, I should say that if a sound knowledge of Latin, as distinguished from the knowledge of special books got up for examination, is to be acquired in the school, it must be in the sixth form, the work of which is not now planned with that, object in view. Having thus indicated what I conceive to be the chief characteristic, and, at the same time, the leading defect, of the school, I am glad to be able to say, without reserve, that I see no reason to entertain a doubt of the competency or efficiency of the masters. I believe that they are working with much ability under a faulty programme, and that they might achieve

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signal success if their energies were directed simply to the work of secondary education. lam not sure that the number of masters is quite sufficient. I noticed particularly that the arrangement which places the third and fourth forms under one master does not seem to afford all the supervision that one form seated at the desk requires while the other form is standing before the master. I fear that in such circumstances there can be no adequate attention given to the teaching of writing, and I do not altogether approve of the practice of allowing one class to prepare lessons while another class is receiving direct instruction. The preparation of lessons should rather, I think, be regarded as home work, and be done out of school. The remuneration of the teachers (stated in the order in which the names appear in the prospectus of the College) is as follows: Principal, £700 per annum and house; Second Master, £-100; Assistant Master, £250; Mathematical Master, £300 ; Professor of Natural Science, £450 ; Modern Language Master, £200 ; Drawing Master, £72 : total, £2,372. If this be divided by the number of boys (72), the quotient shows the cost to be £33 per annum for each boy ; but it must be remembered that the same staff is available for college lectures, and would not need to be greatly augmented though the number of boys should be largely increased. In this connection I may say that to me it appears highly probable that, if separate arrangements were made for the higher education, and the school left free to attend to secondary education exclusively, the result would soon be, first, manifestly greater efficiency, and secondly, and as a consequence, a large influx of new pupils. It has also occurred to me, as a stranger, that the school would most likely be larger if it were nearer the heart of the city, and if better provision were made for warming the rooms in winter. I have, &c, The Hon. the Minister for Education, Wellington. Wit. Jas. Habens. On the motion of Professor Sale, the report was received, and ordered to be entered on the minutes. On tbe motion of the Eev. W. J. Habens, the Commission adjourned, to meet again in the Board Room of Canterbury College, Christchurch, on Monday next, at 2.30 o'clock p.m.

Monday, 7th April, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Boom of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 2.30 o'clock p.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolved, That the Secretary be instructed to write to the Warden of Christ's College, intimating that the Commission proposes to depute a Committee to observe the working of the College and inspect the premises. It was also resolved that a similar communication be addressed by the Secretary to the headmaster of Christ's College, suggesting Wednesday, the 9th instant, as a suitable day for the visit. On the motion of Professor Cook, Resolved, That tho following Committees be appointed : — A Committee consisting of Professor Sale, Professor Shand, aud the Eev. W. E. Mulgan, to visit Christ's College on Wednesday next; A Committee consisting of Professor Sale, Professor Shand, Professor Cook, and the Eev. W. J. Habens, to visit the Christchurch Girls' High School on Tuesday next; A Committee consisting of Professor Brown, the Eev. W. J. Habens, and the Chairman, to visit the Normal School on Wednesday next. The Committee appointed to visit Canterbury College were instructed to do so on Tuesday and Thursday, the Bth and 10th April respectively. The Secretary was instructed to summon the following witnesses for Saturday next: —Mr. William Montgomery, M.H.E., at 10 o'clock; Dr. Powell, at 12 o'clock. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday Bth April, 1879. The Commissioners met in tho Board Boom of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. A letter was received from the Chairman of the Otago Presbyterian Church Trustees, in reply to circular of tho 29th January, stating that the Trustees had the management of certain properties acquired by purchase, but that they conceived the circular had no application to these. On the motion of Professor Sale, the Secretary was instructed to inform the Trustees of the advice given by the Law Officer of the Crown in the case of the Canterbury Church Property Trustees, and to request them to supply the information required. A letter was received from the Registrar of the University of New Zealand, transmitting a copy of the report submitted to the Senate of the University at its late session by a deputation which waited on the Hon. the Minister for Lands on the Bubject of the University reserves ; also a copy of certain resolutions passed by the Senate thereupon. On the motion of Professor Brown, the consideration of the letter was deferred. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following clay at 9.30 o'clock a.m.

Wednesday, 9th April, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Boom of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 9.30 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professors Brown aud Cuok, ReY. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were road and confirmed. On the motion of Professor Brown, Resolved, That Tuesday next be deroted by the Commission to considering what issues will have to be determined in presenting an interim report to Parliament. On the motion of the Bey. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That application be made to the Government for an extension of time for preparing the report, and that, at the same time, the intention of the Commission be distinctly expressed to prepare a substantial interim report before the meeting of Parliament. On the motion of the Uev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the Chairman, the Eev. W. E. Mulgan, and tbe mover be appointed a Committee to draw up questions to be put to the witnesses to be examined in Christchurch. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 11 o'clock a.m.

Thursday, 10th April, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Boom of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 11 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke (Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. MiuVan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed.

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A letter was received from the Secretary for Education, recommending that the return asked for of public moneys granted, &c, for the promotion of education should be prepared by some oompetent pemon appointed by the Commission. On the motion of Professor Brown, the Secretary was instructed to ascertain in whit manner t!ie return could best be procured. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned : —Mrs. Ingle, for Monday next, at 10 o'clock a.m. ; Professor Bickerton, for Monday noxt, at 10.30 o'clock a.m.; the Bishop of Ciiristchureh, for Wednesday, at 10 o'oloek a.m.; Mr. C. C. Corfe, for Wednesday, at 2.30 o'clock a.m. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at tho same place on Saturday next at 10.15 a.m.

Satubday, 12th Apeil, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Room of Canterbury College, Christchurch. at 10.15 a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W.E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting wero read and confirmed. Professor Sale brought up the following report of the Committee appointed to observe the working of the Canterbury Girls' High School :— Tho school buildings are of stone. They are of handsome exterior, and are in a convenient and healthy situation. There aro five large class-rooms, besides smaller rooms for instruction in music and for other purposes. The class-rooms are lofty, well lighted, and well ventilated, and are wanned by means of hot-water pipes. They are quite sufficient for the present requirements of the school. The pupils are divided into five classes. The regular teaching stiiff consists of five lady-teachers, including the ladyprineipal. Instruction is given in Latin, French, and elementary mathematics, as well as in the ordinary branches of an English education, including needlework. Class-singing and elementary physical science are also taught as part of the regular school work by teachers specially appointed for that purpose. German, instrumental music, and drawing are extra subjects, aud are taught by visiting teachers. The school seems to be well organized, and a fair proportion of time is allotted to the different subjects. We were present while the classes were receiving instruction in all the subjects taught except German, physical science, and instrumental music. In the English branches a very fair standard of efficiency has been attained. Both Latin and mathematics are well taught. In these two subjects the pupils, oven in the higher classes, are still occupied with elementary work ; but tbis is no doubt clue to the fact that the school has only recently been established. Latin is now taught in all the classes except the lowest; and it is to be expected that this will, in time, lead to a considerable advance in the character of the work in the higher classes. At present only the highest class receives instruction in Euclid, and the two highest classes in algebra. In our opinion, it would be an improvement if each of these subjects were commenced one year earlier in the school course. On the whole, we were very favourably impressed with what we saw. Both pupils and teachers seemed to bo interested in their work, and there was good order and discipline throughout the school. On the motion of Professor Sale, the report was received and ordered to be entered on the minutes. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned : —-Mr. W. Eolleston, M.H.E., for Monday next, at 10.30 a.m.; Mr. W. J. AY". Hamilton, for Tuesday next, at 10 a.m. ; Mr. C. C. Bowen, M.H.E., for Wednesday next, at 11 a.m.; Mr. J. IN". Tosswill, for Wednesday next, at 11.30 a.m. ; and Mr. E. O. J. Stevens, M.H.E., for Thursday next, at 10 a.m. Mr. William Montgomery, M.H.R., was in attendance, and examined. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at tho same place on Monday next at 10 a.m.

Monday, 14th Apbii,, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Boom of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Brofessois Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Mrs. Ingle was in attendance, and examined. Professor Bickerton, EOS., was in attendance and examined. At this stage of the proceedings the Chairman retired, and, on the motion of the Rev. W. J. Habens, th' <■" air was taken by Professor Sliand. Mr. J. V. Colborne-Veel was in attendance, and examined. The Secretary was instructed to summon Dr. J. yon Haast to give evidence on Wednesday next, at 4 o'clock p.m. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, I_tii April, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Boom of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Mr. O'Rorke, Professors Sale and Shand. On tho motion of Professor Brown the chair was taken by Professor Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Professor Shand vacated the chair, which was taken by Mr. O'Rorke. Mr. W. J. W. Hamilton was in attendance, and examined. Professor Sale brought up the following report of the Committee appointed to observe the working of Christ's College :— In accordance with our instructions we visited Christ's College on the 9th instant, and called upon the headmaster, Mr. Corfe. Mr. Corfe explained to us the general arrangement of the school work, and offered to accompany us to tho several class-rooms ; but he informed us at the same time that the work of the school would not be continued in our presence, as he and the under-mastcrs objected to tbe presence of any visitor while they were engaged in their work. He explained further that he was fully supported in this view by the Warden and Eellows of the College. We subsequently had an interview with the Warden, the Bishop of Christchurch, who confirmed what had been stated to us by the headmaster as to tho unwillingness of the College authorities to permit any inspection of tho classes while the work was going on. Under these cireumstanees we were of opinion that no information would be obtained by means of a visit of inspection such as would not be equally well obtained by means of a written statement. We therefore dcelinedto accompany the headmaster for the purpose of visiting the class-rooms, and wo requested him to furnish a time-table showing full details of the work done in the different classes. After the school had dispersed, we took an opportunity of inspecting the buildings. We found that there were ten class-rooms, one of which, a large isolated building, is used, when necessary, for the purpose of assembling the school together ; and throe others are used by the boarders, out of school hours, for purposes of study or recreation. One of the

rooms is devoted to physical science, and contains a moderate supply of apparatus, diagrams, &c. There are three boardinghouses, one in charge of the headmaster, and the two others in charge of two of the under-masters. There is an excellent playground, of about six acres in extent, which is used chiefly by the boarders as a football ground and as a practice-ground for cricket. The Public Domain is also within easy reach of the school, and part of the Domain, we were informed, is appropriated for the use of the school as a cricket-ground. AYe were furnished by the Warden with the copy of a letter written by the Sub-Warden to the Minister of Education, and embodying the views of the governing body on the subject of inspection. AYe hand in this copy for the information of the Commission. On the motion of Professor Sale, the report was received and ordered to be entered on the minutes. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolved, That the Eegistrar of the University of New Zealand be requested to furnish a copy of the examiners' reports for the year 1879, and schedules of the marks for the examinations of May and November, 1876, and December, 1878 ; also that all examiners' reports furnished by the Eegistrar be printed iv the appendix to the report. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned : —Air. J. E. Brown, M.H.E., for AVednesday next, at 12 o'clock; Mr. John Inglis, for Thursday next, at 11 o'clock; Mr. C. C. Howard, for Thursday next, at 12 o'clock; Dr. Turnbull, for Thursday next, at 2.30 o'clock ; Mr. F. de C. Malet, for Thursday next, at 3 o'clock ; Dr. Powell, for Thursday next, at 4 o'clock. The Commission proceeded to consider what issues will have to be determined in presenting an interim report to Parliament, and deferred the further consideration of the same matter until a future day. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock.

Wednesday, 16th Apeil, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Boom of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Eev. AY. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. A letter was received from the Headmaster of Christ's College Grammar School, forwarding lists of the work taken up by the different forms in the current term ; also a table showing the hours per week given to the different subjects in each form. The Secretary laid on the table statements of accounts furnished by the Eegistrar of the University of New Zealand. The following witnesses were in attendance, and examined : —The Eight Eev. the Bishop of Christchurch, Mr. J N Tosswill, Mr. J. E. Brown, M.H.E., Mr. C. C. Corfe, Dr. J. yon Haast. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Thursday, 17th Apeil, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Room, Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 10 o'clock, a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary read the following telegram received from the Secretary for Education : —" Mr. Ballance approves your proposal re Commission's report; interim report to be not later than end of July." The Secretary laid on the table a copy of tho Minutes of Proceedings of Session of Senate of the University of Hew Zealand held in March, 1879. Mr. E. C. J. Stevens, M.H.R., was in attendance, and examined. On tho motion of the Rev. AY. J. Habens, Resolved, That the Commission do now proceed to consider whether a certain statement made at the close of Mr. Corfe's examination yesterday be regarded as evidence or not; and that, in order to the due consideration of that question, the shorthand-writer's notes of the statement be now read. Shorthand-writer's notes read. Dr. Hector moved, That the statement just read be not recorded on the minutes as evidence. The Rev. AY. E. Mulgan seconded. The motion being put, the Commission divided as follows : —Ayes, V: Professor Cook, the Rev. VV. J. Habens Dr. Hector, the Rev. AY. E. Mulgan, Mr. O'Rorke, Professor Sale, Professor Shand. Noes, 1: Professor Brown. The motion was consequently carried. Dr. Hector moved, That Mr. Corfe be re-examined on the question of whether there is any want of harmony between Christ's College and Canterbury College, such as to impede the working of the institution under his control. Professor Brown seconded. Motion agreed to. The following witnesses were in attendance and examined : —Mr. C. C. Howard, Dr. Turnbull, Mr. F. de C Malet Dr. Powell. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Feiday, 18th Apeil, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Boom of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Bey. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Rev. AY. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale and Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were in attendance, and examined :—Mr. C. C. Bowen, M.H.R., Mr. John Inglis, and Mr. C. C. Corfe. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That the Commission do meet at Dunedin on the 17th June next, for the purpose of proceeding with its inquiries at that place, and of drawing up an interim report for presentation to the Governor. On the motion of the Rev. AY. J. Habens, Resolved, That notice be given to all members of the Commission that at tho meeting in Dunedin the Commission will proceed to prepare an interim report, in which it will deal with questions affecting the University of New Zealand. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned for next day:—His Honor Mr. Justice Johnston and the Rev. Charles Fraser, M.A. The Secretary was instructed to telegraph to the Bishop of AVellington, and Mr. John Duthie, of Wanganui, requesting them to attend to give evidence at AVellington on AVednesday, the 23rd instant. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

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Satueday, 19_n Apeil, 1879. The Commission met in the Board Room of Canterbury College, Christchurch, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Rev. W. E. Mulgan. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were in attendance, and examined : —His Honor Mr. Justice Johnston, Mr. W. Montgomery, M.H.R., Rev. C. Fraser, Mr. C. C. Bowen, M.H.R., Mr. W. Rolleston, M.H.E, On the motion of the Rev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the sum of £2 be paid to the porter of the Canterbury College as a gratuity. The Secretary laid on the table a copy of the Lyttelton Times, 15th March, 1878, containing the address of Professor Brown, referred to in Mr. Corfe's evidence. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, on Monday next, at 3 o'clock p.m.

Monday, 21st Apeil, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 3 o'clock p.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Hon. W. Gisborne, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Rev. W. E. Mulgan. The minutes and proceedings of tho Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. A letter was received from the Under Secretary of Crown Lands, forwarding copy of Gazette of 10th April, 1879, containing the proclamation of the University reserve at Taranaki. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned : —Mr. J. Thomson, for Tuesday, at 10 o'clock ; the Hon. M. S. Grace, M.L.C., for Tuesday, at 16.30 o'clock ; Mr. Kenneth Wilson, for Tuesday, at 11 o'clock ; Mr. H. Jackscn, for Tuesday, at 2.30 o'clock ; Rev. J. Paterson, for Tuesday, at 3.30 o'clock; Mr. W. Hutchison, for Tuesday, at 4 o'clock ; Hon. J. C. Pharazyn, M.L.C., for Wednesday, at 9.30 o'clock ; the Bishop of Wellington, for Wednesday, at 10 o'clock ; Mr. D. Peat, for Wednesday, at 2.30 o'clock ; Mr. R. Lee, for Wednesday, at 4.30 o'clock ; Mr. W. H. L. Travers, for Thursday, at 10 o'clock. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, 22nd Apeil, 1879. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Hon. W. Gisborne, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Rev. W. E. Mulgan. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary laid on the table correspondence with the Agent-General as to procuring University calendars, reports, &c, from England. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned : —Mr. C. C. N. Barron, for Thursday, at 11 o'clock ; Professor Kirk, for Thursday, at 11.30 o'clock ; Mr. S. H. Cox, for Thursday, at 12 o'clock ; Mr. W. Clark, for Thursday, at 12.30 o'clock ; Mr. James McKerrow, for Thursday, at 2.30 o'clock ; his Honor Mr. Justice Richmond, for Thursday, at 3 o'clock ; and Mr. Henry Jackson, to be resummoned for Thursday, at 4 o'clock. The Hon."M. S. Grace, M.D., M.L.C., was in attendance, and examined. Mr. Kenneth Wilson, M.A., was in attendance, and examined. The Committee adjourned, to meet again at the same place next day at 9.30 o'clock a.m.

Wednesday, 23ed Apeil, 1879. The following Commissioners met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 9.30 o'clock a.m : —Dr. Hector (in the chair), Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary). There being no quorum, the Commissioners present resolved lo proceed with the examination of witnesses. The following witnesses were examined : —Thc Hon. Mr. Pharazyn, M.L.C., Mr. David Peat, the Right Rev. the Bishop of Wellington, Mr. Henry Jackson, and Mr. Robert Lee. •

Thtjbsday, 24t_- Apeil, 1879. The following Commissioners met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 10 o'clock a.m.:—Hon. W. Gisborne (in the chair), Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, and tho Rev. W. E. Mulgan. There being no quorum, the Commissioners present resolved to proceed with the taking of evidence, and examined the following witnesses: —Mr. C. C. N. Barron, Professor Kirk, Mr. W. Clark, Mr. James McKerrow, His Honor Mr. Justice Richmond.

Fbiday, 25th Apeil, 1879. The following Commissioners met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 9.30 o'clock a.m.: —Hon. W. Gisborne, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector (in the chair), and Rev. W. E. Mulgan. There being no quorum, the Commissioners present resolved to proceed with the taking of evidence, and examined the following witnesses: Mr. S. H. Cox, Rev. J. Patersou. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Hon. W. Gisborne, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Rev. W. E. Mulgan. The Commission met at Parliament Buildings, Wellington, at 1 o'clock p.m. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at its last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary reported that certain members of the Commission met at Parliament Buildings on the 23rd, 24th, and 25th April respectively, and proceeded with the taking of evidence. On the motion of Dr. Hector, Resolved, That the proceedings at the informal meetings of Commissioners held on the 23rd, 24th, and 25th April respectively be entered on the minutes, and confirmed. The Secretary laid on the table a memorial to the Hon. the Premier, asking for the establishment, in connection with the Auckland College and Grammar School, of evening classes, for imparting instruction in the higher branches of education ; also the Premier's reply thereto. Ordered, That the correspondence be printed in the appendix to the report. On the motion of Dr. Hector, the following payments were authorized : —Mr. David Peat, Wanganui, expenses as a witness, £9 4s. ; Mr. Henry Jackson, Hutt, expenses as a witness, £2 ss. ; A. McCarthy, messenger, 2 days, 16s. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at Dunedin on the 17th June next at 3 o'clock p.m.

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Tuesday, 17th June, 1879. Tho Commission met at the offices of the University of Otngo, Dunedin, at 3 o'clock p.m. Present: Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, the chair was taken by Professor Sale. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read aud confirmed. The Secretary read the letters patent extending the time for the presenting of the report of the Commission to the 31st March, 1880." A letter from the Vice-Chancellor of the Otago University, offering to provide office accommodation for the Commission, was ordered to be acknowledged with thanks. The Secretary read his letter, written by direction of the Commission, asking the Minister of Education to refer to the Law Officers of the Crown a question as to the operation of the Wesleyan model trust deed; also the opinion of tbe Assistant Law Officer thereon. The papers were ordered to be printed in the appendix to the report of the Commission. A sketch by Mr. E. Dobson, Christchurch, embodying his views with regard to examinations for surveyors and civil engineers, was submitted to the Commission and ordered to be printed in the appendix to the report. The Secretary reported that he had arranged to procure a return of public moneys granted in trust for the promotion of education in Kew Zealand. A letter was received from the Hon. W. 11. Eeynolds, Chairman of the Otago Presbyterian Church Board of Property, stating that lie still failed to see that the lands of the Presbyterian Church of Otago came within the scope of the Commission. The Secretary was instructed to consult with the Hon. the Attorney-General on the subject. The Secretary laid on the tabic the following papers, and they were read : — Letter from Mr. H. C. Field, of Wanganui, in reference to the Wanganui Industrial School Estate. Letter from the Eegistrar of the University of Kew Zealand to the Minister of Education, covering resolution of the Senate proposing to assimilate the matriculation examination to the Civil Service examination; together with a memorandum by the Minister concurring in the resolution of the Senate, aud referring the matter to the Civil Service Board of Examiners and to the Commission. Letter from the Secretary to the Minister of Education, in reference to tbe printing of the minutes of evidence; together with the Minister's memorandum thereon. Letter from the Secretary of Education, staling that the Minister had directed inquiries to he made with a view to obtaining such information as would guide the Government in leasing the University reserves on advantageous terms, and that he was not yet able to say what proposals the Government would submit to Parliament on the subject of the reserves. Copy of a letter, dated 10th August, 1875, from the Professors of Canterbury College to the Chairman of the Board of Governors, recommending that there should be two terms in the year, with an interval of a month between them. Also, the report of a Special Committee (20th September, 1878) appointed to consider what changes it might be desirable to make iv the College terms, together with a report of the Professorial Council on the same subject. The Secretary also laid on the table a pamphlet by the Eev. W. Gillies, entitled "The Presbyteriau Church Trust, with Historical -Narrative." The Secretary laid on the table a memorandum which Dr. Turnbull had sent with his evidence as corrected. The following printed papers were laid on the table : —Minutes of Evidence, IGO pages ; Minutes of Proceedings of Commission up to last meeting ; Appendix, 32 pages. The Secretary reported that all the evidence which had yet been taken had been revised by the witnesses, and was in the printer's hands ; and that the whole of the remaining matter for the appendix, with the exception of that ordered to be printed this day, was in the hands of the printer. The following Committees were appointed : — Professors Shand aud Ulrich, Eev. \V. J. Habeus, and Eev. W. E. Mulgan, to visit the Girls' High School on Thursday morning next. Professors Shand and Ulrich, Mr. O'Eorke, and Eev. W. J. Habens, to visit the Boys' High School on Friday morning next. Mr. O'Eorke, Professor Ulrich, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, and Eev. W. J. Habens, to visit the Normal School on Friday afternoon. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Thursday, 19th June, at 2.30 o'clock p.m.

Thuksday, 19th June, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 2.30 o'clock p.m. Present: Mr. O'Korke, Chairman ; Mr. Cutten, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Eov. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, Resolved, That the name of the Eev. W. E. Mulgan be substituted for that of Professor Shand on the Committee appointed to visit the Boys' High School. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned : —For Saturday : Dr. Macdonald, Mr. D. Brent, Mrs. Burn, Mr. James Fulton, Mr. W. S. Fitzgerald, Mr. D. Petrie. For Monday: Hon. H. S. Chapman, Eev. Dr. Stuart, Mr. W. H. Mansford. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Saturday, the 21st June, at 10 o'clock a.m.

Saturday, 21st June, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. Tiie minutes of tiie proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. A letter was received from Mr. James Fulton requesting that an alteration might be made in the time fixed for his attendance as a witness. On tbe motion of Dr. Macdonald, Resolved, That Mr. Fulton be asked to attend ou Wednesday, the 25th instant, at 2.30 o'clock ; and that Mr. P. G. Pryde, Secretary to the Board of Education, be summoned as a witness for tbis day at 12 o'clock. The following witnesses were in attendance, and examined : —Dr. Macdonald, Mr. D. Brent, Mrs. Burn, Mr. P. G. Pryde, Mr. W. S. Fitzgerald, Mr. D. Petrie. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Monday, the 23rd instant, at 10.45 o'clock a.m.

Monday, 23ed June, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10.45 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Korke, Chairman ; Professor Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. The minutes of the proceedings of tho Commission at last meeting were read aud confirmed. 4—H. 1 (M. of Pro.)

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A letter was received from the Hon. H. S. Chapman asking, on account of ill-health, to be excused from attendance as a witness this day. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned: —For Tuesday: Professors Scott, Hutton, and Black, Mr. Justice Williams, Judge Bathgate. For Wednesday : Professors Macgregor and Salmoud, Dr. Hocken, Dr. Coughtrey, Dr. Brown, Dr. Alexander. The Rev. D. M. Stuart, D.D., Vice-Chancellor of the University of Otago, was in attendance, and examined. Mr. W. H. Mansford, Eegistrar of the University of Otago, was in attendance, and examined. On the motion of the Secretary, Resolved, That the Hon. H. S. Chapman be not required to attend as a witness. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, 24th June, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, the Hon. W. Gisborne. Eev. W.J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The following witnesses were in attendance and examined:—Professor Scott, Professor Hutton, Professor Black, His Honor Mr. Justice Williams, Mr. District Judge Bathgate. It was resolved that Mr. G. Cowie be summoned as a witness for the following day. On the motion of Professor Brown, Resolved, That, on Thursday, the 26th instant, the Commission proceed to consider the proposed interim report. On the motion of Professor Shand, Resolved, That the letters from the Professorial Board to the Chancellor and ViceChancellor of the University of Otago, in reference to the University buildings, be printed in the minutes of the ViceChancellor's evidence. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Wednesday, 25th June, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, the Hon. W. Gisborne, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Dr. Macdonald, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. A letter was received from Mr. Montgomery, M.H.E., stating that, in his evidence given at Christchurch, he stated that the amount of interest to be received during the year from money lent on mortgage belonging to the School of Agriculture would be £4,064, whereas he should have said £4,133, and desiring that the correction might be made. The Secretary laid on the table the following books: —Eeport of Her Majesty's Commissioners on the University and Colleges of Cambridge, 1853 ; Eeport of Her Majesty's Commissioners on the University and Colleges of Oxford, 1852 ; Eeport of Her Majesty's Commissioners on Queen's Colleges at Belfast, Cork, and Galway, 1857 ; Eeport of Schools Inquiry Commission, 2L vols.; Eeport of Eoyal Commissioners on the Universities (Scotland), 4 vols.; First, Second, and Third Report* of Commissioners on Endowed Schools and Hospitals (Scotland) ; Oxford University Calendar, 1879 ; Durham University Calendar, 1879 ; and Dublin University Calendar, 1879. The following witnesses were in attendance, and examined : —Professors Macgregor and Salmond, Dr. Hocken, Professor Brown, Dr. Coughtrey, Mr. George Cowie, Dr. Brown, Dr. Alexander. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

• Thubsday, 26th June, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present : Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown aud Cook, Hon. W. Gisborne, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Dr. Macdonald, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of Dr. Hector, the Commission resolved itself into a Committee to consider proposals for draft of interim report, Mr. O'Eorke in the chair. The Commission having resumed, the Committee reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Friday, 27th June, 1879. The Commission met at tho offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman; Professors Brown and Cook, Hon. W. Gisborne, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Dr. Macdonald, Eev. W. fi. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Commission again resolved itself into Committee to continue the consideration of proposals for draft of interim report, Mr. O'Eorke in the chair. The Commission having resumed, the report of tho Committee was brought up, and, on the motion of Professor Brown, ordered to be considered next day at 10 o'clock a.m. On the motion of the Hon. W. Gisborne, Resolved, That it is desirable that Native schools, maintained, in part or iv whole, by public endowments or by public funds, be brought under the Education Department. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Satueday, 28th June, 1879. Tho Commission met at the offices of tiie University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Eorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Hon. W. Gisborne, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Dr. Maeilonald, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Siiand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Commission proceeded to consider the report submitted by the Committee, containing proposals for draft of interim report. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That, in the opinion of this Commission, there should, under the present circumstances of the colony, be only one body for granting degrees in New Zealand. The Hon. W. Gisborne moved, That fur the above purpose there should bo a New Zealand University, consisting of colleges established or to be established at the principal centres of population. The Eev. W. fi. Mulgan moved, as an amendment, That all the words after "That" he omitted, for the purpose of adding the following words : "for the above purpose the New Zealand University should hereafter consist of a Chancellor, Vice-Chancellor, fellows, and graduates; and that colleges already established, or hereafter to be established, at the principal centres of population should be constituted colleges of the said University."

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Question, That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question, put and negatived. Question put, That the word* proposed to be added be so added. Professor Sale moved, That the word "and," between the words "fellows "and "graduates," be omitted ; and that the words "and undergraduates" be inserted between the words "graduates" and "and." Professor Sale's amendment put aud negatived. The Rev. W. J. Habens moved, as an amendment, That it is expedient to bring the University of New Zealand into closer relation with the Otago University and the Canterbury College, and to make such colleges, and other colleges to be established, colleges of the University, and their professors professors of the University. Question put and carried, That the words of the Rev. W. E. Mulgan'- amendment bo added. Resolution, as amended, put and carried. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That, the Otago University and the Canterbury College be two of those colleges j and that, in addition thereto, there be established two colleges in the North Island, one at Auckland and another at "Wellington, capable of conferring an academical education of the same standard as that supplied by the Otago University and the Canterbury College. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That the professors of the Otago University, the professors of the Canterbury College, and the professors of colleges to be established under the proposed Act, be professors of the New Zealand University. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That the said colleges shall not in any way be under the jurisdiction or control of the New Zealand University Senate, farther than as regards the regulations for qualifications for the several degrees or other University distinctions, the said colleges being iv all other respects subjected only to regulations of their respective governing bodies or councils. Professor Shand moved, That the governing body or council of each college he composed of twelve members, as follows : Four members to be nominated by the Governor in Council; four members to be elected by the Professorial Board of each college; four members to be elected by the graduates of the New Zealand University on the books of the respective colleges as soon as there are twenty such graduates ; but until such number is reached this last group of members shall be appointed by the Governor in Council. The tenure of office to be ultimately for four years, one of each group of four to retire annually. The first, second, and third retirements to be by lot, and subsequent retirements to be by seniority. Retiring members to be eligible for re-election or reappointment. Absence without leave from meetings of tho Council for a period of three months to involve forfeiture of a member's seat. Special provision to be made for appointing the first Council of the Auckland and Wellington Colleges, and for bringing the Councils of the Otago University and Canterbury College into conformity herewith. Professor Cook moved, as an amendment, That the word "twelve," between tho words "of" and "members," be omitted, for the purpose of inserting the word " fifteen." Question put, That the word proposed to be omitted stand part of the question ; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result: —Ayes, 8 : Messrs. Gisborne, Ulrich, Sale, Hector, Shand, Macdonald, Wallis, O'Rorke. Noes, 4 : Messrs. Cook, Brown, Mulgan, Habens. The amendment was consequently negatived. Professor Cook moved, as an amendment, the addition of the following words : " That the Council of Canterbury College be composed of eighteen members." Question put, That the words proposed to be added be so added ; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result:—Ayes, 8: Messrs. Gisborne, Ulrich, Sale, Hector, Shand, Mulgan, Wallis, O'Rorke. Noes, 4: Messrs. Cook, Brown, Macdonald, Habens. The amendment was consequently negatived, and the resolution was put and agreed to. The Hon. W. Gisborne moved, That the New Zealand University shall he governed by one body, to be called the Senate of the New Zealand University. The Rev. W. E. Mulgan moved, as an amendment, To omit the words " one body," for the purpose of inserting in lieu thereof the words " two Courts," and to insert, after the word " Senate," the words " and Convocation." Amendment put and negatived, and resolution agreed to. A letter was received from the Rev. Dr. Stuart, forwarding a written statcmont as an addition to his evidence. On the motion of the Rev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the Rev. Dr. Sluart be recalled, in order that he may have an opportunity of making a further statement by way of evidence. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Monday, the 30th instant, at 10 o'clock a.m.

Monday, 30th June, 1879.

The Commission met at tho offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Mr. O'Rorke, Chairman ; Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Hon. W. Gisborne, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Dr. Macdonald, Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. . The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary laid on the table a copy of a petition from the Council of the University of Otago to Her Majesty praying for a charter. Resolved, That the Secretary obtain a copy of the petition of Canterbury College aud of the resolution of the Senate of the University of New Zealand on the same subject; and that the two petitions and the resolution be printed in the appendix to the report. On the motion of Dr. Hector, Resolved, That Dr. de Zouche be summoned as a witness. The Secretary stated that he had received from Dr. Hector a lett»r signed by the Chairman of the Domain Board of Dunedin on the subject of an endowment for the Botanical Gardens. Resolved, That the letter lie on the table. The Commission resumed the consideration of proposals for draft of interim report. The Chairman moved, That such Senate shall bo composed of six members, to be appointed by the Governor in Council, such six members to be unconnected with the professorial staff of any of tho colleges ; and of three representatives of each University college, to be elected by the councils of the colleges. That tho tenure of office of members of the Seriate be for three years, and that one-third of each of the above-mentioned groups retire annually, tho first and second retirements to be by lot, and subsequent retirements to be by seniority ; retiring members to be eligible for re-election or reappointment. Dr. Macdonald moved, as an amendment, That the following words be omitted : "such six members to be unconnected with the professorial staff of any of the colleges." Question put, That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question ; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result: —Ayes, 2 : Dr. Wallis, Mr. O'Rorke. Noes, 8 : Messrs. liabens, Ulrich, Sale, Macdonald, Shand, Hector, Cook, Brown. The amendment was consequently carried, and the resolution, as amended, was agreed to. On the motion of the Hon. W. Gisborne, Resolved, That the power of voting by proxy should be abolished. On the motion of the Rev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That, whilst the Commission attaches great importance to the regular attendance of undergraduates on college lectures, it is of opinion that it is not necessary to disturb the existing arrangement, by which the Chancellor may, in exceptional cases, grant exemption from attendance. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That the affiliation of educational institutions should cease on the coming into operation of the new Act dealing with the New Zealand University, and that all existing personal rights of graduates and undergraduates should be saved. The Hon. W. Gisborne moved, That the Senate shall from time to time appoint professors of the New Zealand University, or lecturers in any of tho colleges, as examiners, and make regulations for the proper conduct of examinations. The Rev. W. J. Habens moved, as an amendment, That all the words after " appoint" be omitted, for the purpose of adding tho following words: "examiners, who shall usually, but not necessarily in every ease, be professors of the University or lecturers in the colleges ; and in no case shall any part of the examination be conducted by persons who, for the time being, are not in the colony."

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Amendment put and carried, and resolution, as amended, agreed to. Ou the motion of the Her. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the final returns of every examination shall be made up, and the awards of scholarships decided, by a Committee, consisting of the Chancellor as Chairman, and of persons chosen from among the examiners, each professorial board choosing one examiner as its representative. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That it is desirable that the examination of law students in general knowledge, and the examination of candidates for admission to the Civil Service, should bo transferred to the New Zealand University, which should from time to time appoint examiners for these subjects. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That a certain number of appointments in the public departments should be reserved specially for students who have graduated with distinction in the New Zealand University, and that it be an instruction to the Senate to negotiate with the Government on the subject of the departments in which appointments should be offered, and the condition of tenure. On the motion of the Chairman, Resolved, That the Minister of Education should be the Visitor of the University and of all colleges to be established under the proposed Act. On the motion of the Eev. W. J. llabens, Resolved, That each University college be required to present an anuual report to the Senate of the University, and that the Senate shall preseut to the Minister for Education an annual report, with copies of the reports from the colleges. On the motion of Professor Shand, Resolved, That the appointment of the professors be vested in the Councils of tho several colleges ; but that the sanction of the Senate of the University bo required before the establishment of new professorships or lectureships in any college. On the motion of Professor Sliand, Resolved, That the Professorial Board in each college shall consist of all the University professors holding chairs in the college, and of such of the lecturers as the Council of the college shall appoint; provided that the number of lecturers who may be appointed members of the Board shall not be greater than one-third of the number of the professors. On the motion of the Rev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That in the opinion of the Commission a sum of £25,000 should be granted by Parliament for the erection of two colleges—one in Auckland at a cost not exceeding £12,500, and one in Wellington at a cost not exceeding £12,500. On the motion of the Hon. W. Gi-borne, Resohed, That the colleges at Auckland and Wellington be respectively endowed with sites, and with Crown lands sufficient to produce an immediate income to each amounting to £1,000 per annum. That, if it is not practicable to make reserves bringing in at once such an income, the deficit in each case be made good by a pecuniary grant until such income is realized, such grant to bo appropriated in the University Act. On the motion of the Eev. VV. J. Habens, Resolved, That the proposed college buildings at Auckland and Wellington be erected by the Government. On the motion of the Hon. W. Gisborne, Resolved, that a joint Committee, consisting of two members of the Senate and two members of the respective colleges concerned, be consulted with by the Government respecting plans of colleges at Wellington and Auckland. On the motion of Dr. Macdonald, Resolved, That, unlil the professors of Auckland College and Wellington College have been appointed, the Council of each college shall consist of the eight persons appointed by tbe Governor. The Eev. W. J. llabens moved, That the tenure of office of each professor shall be quamdiu se bene gesser'd, except that during the first two years, dating from the commencement of his work, a professor may be subject to any such terms with regard to removal or dismissal as may have been agreed upon between him and the college Board. Professor Sale moved, as an amendment, That all the words after the word " gesserit" be omitted. Question put, That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the question; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result: —Ayes, 6 : Messrs. Habens, Gisborne, Macdonald, Brown, Cook, O'Eorke. Noes, 5 : Messrs. Ulrich, Sale, Sliand, Hector, Wallis. So it was resolved in the affirmative. Motion, by leave, withdrawn. On the motion of Professor Brown, Resolved, That each of the colleges of the University shall be designated University College, with the name of the provincial district prefixed ; and that such designation shall not affect title to endowments or any engagements already entered into. On the motion of the Hon. W. Gisborne, Resolved, That a Now Zealand University Act be passed, repealing all Acts inconsistent therewith, and giving legal effect to the foregoing resolutions, and to such parts of the repealed Acts as are not inconsistent therewith. On the motion of the Hon. W. Gisborne, Resolved, That in the Act repealing the University Act provision be made for securing the continuity of the University. On the motion of the Hon. W. Gisborne, Resolved, That the present Senate be succeeded by the new Senate at as early a period as is practicable, due regard being had to all public interests and engagements connected with the present Senate and educational establishments affiliated to the University. The Chairman moved, That the New Zealand University should have its scat and hold its meetings in the Otago University buildings in the City of Dunedin ; and all degrees granted by the Senate of the New Zealand University shall be publicly granted and conferred in the City of Dunedin. Dr. Hector moved, as an amendment, That the words " the New Zealand University should have its seat and hold its meetings iv the Otago University buildings in the City of Dunedin" be omitted, with the view of inserting the following words in lieu thereof: " the place of meeting of the Senate be left to the determination of the Senate." Question put, That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question ; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result:—Ayes, 7 : Messrs. Gisborne, Sale, Macdonald, Shand, Ulrich, Cutten, O'Eorke. Noes, 6 : Messrs. Habens, Brown, Cook, Mulgan, Hector, Wallis. So it was resolved in the affirmative. The Eev. W. J. Habens moved, as an amendment, That the following words be inserted between the words "Dunedin" and " and :" " provided that, in the event of a second session of the University Senate being held during any year, it may be held at one of the other University colleges, at the discretion of the Senate." Question, That the words proposed to be inserted be so inserted, put and negatived. Professor Shand moved, as an amendment, That the following words bo added at the end of the resolution : " Provided that students, when graduating, shall not be necessarily required to be preseut at the graduation ceremonial." Question, That the words proposed to be added be so added, put and carried. Question put, That the resolution, as amended, be agreed to; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result:—Ayes, 7 : Messrs. Gisborne, Sale, Macdonald, Ulrich, Shand, Cutten, O'Eorke. Noes, G : Messrs. Habens, Brown, Cook, Hector, Mulgan, Wallis. So it was resolved in the affirmative. On the motion of the Hon. W. Gisborne, Resolved, That the same pecuniary provision for the University of New Zealand as at present exists be continued in the new New Zealand University Act. On the motion of the Eev. W. J. Habens, Resolved, That the tenure of office of each professor shall be quamdiu se bene gesserit. On the motion of Professor Brown, Resolved, That in electing members of University Councils means should be devised for graduates giving their votes by voting papers, instead of by attending personally at the polling-place. On the motion of Professor Shand, Resolved, That, in addition to the powers already conferred upon the Professorial Boards of the colleges, there shall be committed to them the following functions:—l. To deal with questions relating to the discipline of the students, subject to a right of appeal to the college Council. 2. Subject to the approval of the Council, to fix the course of study, and the days and hours of lectures aud examinations, and to make all necessary regulations with regard to the attendance of the students. 3. Subject to the approval of the Council, to prescribe the subjects of examination for prizes, scholarships, and other college distinctions or rewards. 4. To make regulations for the management of the college library, subject to the approval of the Council. 5. To give, through the college Eegistrar, such instructions as may be necessary to the porter, or other college servants. 6. To furnish to the Council such information as the Council may require, or the Board deem necessary, and also to offer such suggestions for the consideration of the Couucil as the Board may think advisable.

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On the motion of Professor Cook, Resolved, That the Senate of the University of New Zealand shall fix the days for the beginning and ending of the several terms of the academic year, and that such terms shall be the same for all the University colleges. Dr. Hector moved, That the minimum age for admission as an undergraduate of the University shall be sixteen years. Dr. Wallis moved, as an amendment, That the word "sixteen" be omitted, with the view of inserting in lieu thereof the word "fifteen." Question, That the word proposed to be omitted stand part of the question, put and carried. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolved, That in the establishment of any new University college it is desirable that provision be made for the appointment of at least five professors, in tho following subjects : —l, Latin and Greek ; 2, English language, literature, and history ; 3, mathematics and mathematical physics ; 4, chemistry and experimental physics; 5, natural science. Professor Cook moved, That the holder of any ad eundem degree in the University of New Zealand may put his name on the books of any one University college, and shall, in the event of his doing so, become possessed of the same privileges as those possessed by other graduates of the University of New Zealand. The Hon. W. Gisborne moved, as an amendment, the addition of the following words : " provided that he shall have no power to vote in the election of the Council of any college until the graduates, by examination in that college, are twenty in number." Question, That the words proposed to be added be so added, put. and carried, and the resolution, as amended, agreed to. The Hon. AY. Gisborne moved, That it is desirable to found, in some one or other of the University colleges, faculties of Engineering and Practical Science, including engineering, scientific agriculture and stock-breeding, mining and metallurgy. And, the question being put, the Commission divided, as follows :—Ayes, 4 : Messrs. Gisborne, Ulrich, Cook, Brown. Noes, 3 : Messrs. Sale, Wallis, O'Rorke. So it was resolved in the affirmative. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, Ist July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, lion. W. Gisborne, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Hector, Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich, Dr. Wallis. On the motion of Professor Ulrich, the chair was taken by the Rev. W. E. Mulgan. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Chairman's draft of tho interim report was submitted and read, and, on the motion of Professor Shand, it was referred to a Committee, consisting of the Hon. W. Gisborne, Rev. W. J. Habens, and Professor Brown, for revision. On the motion of Dr. Hector, Resolved, That the following be incorporated in the interim report: —"While the Commission consider that instruction in physical and natural science should form an important part of the arts course, and that provision should at once be made for it by the foundation of science chairs in all the University colleges, it is further desirable that professional and technical schools should be also established for the purpose of imparting education in the various branches of applied science. As such professional institutions involve a very large annual expenditure fur the necessary appliances, it is not advisable that more than one such school should be established in each branch. Further, the constitution of such schools should provide for their intimate connection with the University colleges in the places where they are severally located. But the whole of this subject will be dealt with in the final report of the Coumiis.ion. As, however, the changes which have been recommended in the governing bodies of the Otago University and the Canterbury College, and which it is proposed should be brought into immediate operation, may materially interfere with the arrangements already made by these institutions to afford such technical instruction, it is requisite that the Councils of the Otago and Canterbury University Colleges should continue to exercise all the powers which are at present exercised by the existing governing bodies, and that they should, if they think fit, have power to associate with themselves committees composed of persons not on tho Councils who may have special knowledge of the subjects in question." The Hon. W. Gisborne brought up a portion of the report of the Committee appointed to revise the Chairman's draft of interim report. On the motion of Professor Cook, Resolved, That Professor Sale be appointed a member of the Committee, in the place of the Hon. W. Gisborne. On the motion of Professor Shand, Resolved, That the Chairman's draft of the interim report, after being revised by the Committee, be printed for distribution among members. On the motion of Professor Cook, Resolved, That the following witnesses be summoned for the following day: Rev. D. M. Stuart, D.D., Mr. Robert Gillies, Mr. Maxwell Bury. The Commission adjourned, fo meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Wednesday, 2nd July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Rev. W. K. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrii-h, Dr. Wallis. On the motion of Professor Brown, the chair was taken by Professor Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Rev. D. M. Stuart, D.D., was in attendance, and re-examined. Mr. Maxwell Bury was in attendance, and examined. Professor Sliand left the chair; and, On the motion of Professor Ulrich, the chair was taken by the Rev. W. E. Mulgan. A letter was received from the Principal of the Wellington College, forwarding the programme of work of the Collego for the current term, and also copies of the time-tables of the different masters and of each form. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolved, That the letter of the Principal of the Wellington College, with enclosures, be printed in the appendix to the report. A letter was received from Mr. Robert Gillies requesting that a more convenient time might be fixed for his examination. On the motion of Professor Sale, Mr. Gillies was ordered to be summoned for Saturday, the sth instant, at 10 o'clock a.m. The report of the Committee appointed to revise the Chairman's draft of the interim report was submitted, with the draft printed as revised. On the motion of the Rev. VV. J. Habens, the Commission went into Committee o consider the draft report (Rev. W. E. Mulgan in the chair). The Commission having resumed, the Committee reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. The Secretary reported that tho Chairman was engaged in preparing a draft Bill, and requested authority for the printing of the same. On the motion of Professor Ulrich, Resolved, That authority be granted for the printing of the draft Bill. The Commission adjourned to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Thubsday, 3ed July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University 0 f Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), ]Jr. Macdonald, Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Sliand, and Ulrich, Ur. Wallis.

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On the motion of Dr. TVallis, the chair was taken by the Rev. W. E. Mulgan. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of Professor Cook, seconded by Professor Shaud, Resolved, That, at the conclusion of its sitting in Dunedin, the Commission adjourn, to meet again at Christehurch, on Monday, the 24th November, 1879. The Chairman's draft of interim report was further considered in Committee. Progress was reported, and leave given to sit again. Professor Shand moved, and Professor Brown seconded, That the resolution passed by the Commission on the 30th June last, relating to the admission of ad eundem graduates to the privilege of voting in the elections of the college Councils, be rescinded. The Rev. TV. J. Habens moved, as an amendment, That all the words after " That " be omitted, for the purpose of adding the following words : " notwithstanding the resolution of the 30th June to the effect that ad eundem graduates should be allowed to vote when there are twenty graduates on the books of a college who have been admitted by examination, the number be fifty, and not twenty." On the motion of Professor Cook, the debate was adjourned until the following day at half-past 10 o'clock a.m. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Feiday, 4th July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present i Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Shand and Ulrich. On the motion of Professor Brown, the chair was taken by the Eev. W. E. Mulgan. Tho minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The debate was resumed on the question, That the resolution passed by the Commission on the 30th June last, relating to the admission of ad eundem graduates to the privilege of voting in the elections of the college Councils, be rescinded; and the amendment proposed thereto, That all the words after "Thatj" be omitted, for the purpose of adding the following words : " notwithstanding the resolution of the 30th June to tho effect that ad eundem graduates should be allowed to voto when there are twenty graduates on the books of a college who have been admitted by examination, the number be fifty, and not twenty." Question put, That the words proposed to be omitted stand part of the question ; upon which the Commission divided, with the following result: —Ayes, 3 : Messrs. Shand, Macdonald, Brown. Noes, 4 : Messrs. Habens, Ulrich, Cook, Mulgan. So it passed in the negative. Question put, That the words proposed to be added be so added. Dr. Macdonald moved, as an amendment, That the word " fifty " be omitted, for the purpose of inserting the word " thirty." Amendment carried, and motion, as amended, agreed to. On the motion of tho Eev. AY. J. Habens, Resolved, That the Council of any college may refuse to allow an ad eundem graduate to put his name on the books of the college if his place of residence be such as to render it evidently more fitting that he should put his name ou the books of some other college. On the motion of Professor Shand, Resolved, That the Council of any college shall have power to charge a reasonable fee for placing and keeping the names of ad eundem graduates on the books of the college ; and no ad eundem graduate shall have the right of voting at an election of members of the Council unless his name shall have been on the books of the college for at least one year. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Satubday, sth July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Bey. AY. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. On the motion of Professor Sale, the chair was taken by the Eev. AY. E. Mulgan. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. Mr. Eobert Gillies was in attendance, and examined. The Commission went into Committee, and further considered the draft of interim report. The Commission having resumed, the Committee presented the report, with amendments. On the motion of Professor Sale, Resolved, That the report, as amended, be copied, with a view to its further consideration. The following witnesses were ordered to be summoned for Monday, the 7th instant: —Mr. Eobert Stout, Hon. W. H. Eeynolds, Mr. Edmund Smith, Eev. Dr. Copland. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Monday, the 7th instant, at 10 o'clock a.m.

Monday, 7th July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. On the motion of Professor Ulrich, the chair was taken by Professor Brown. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The following witnesses were in attendance, and examined: —lion. W. H. Eeynolds, Mr. Edmund Smith, Eev. Dr. Copland. The interim report, as submitted by the Committee, was considered, and its final consideration postponed until the following day. Mr. Eobert Stout was ordered to be summoned as a witness for Tuesday, at 4.30 o'clock p.m. The Commission adjourned, to meat again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a m.

Tuesday, Bth July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Mr. Cutten, Eev. VV. J. llabens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. On the motion of Professor Brown, the chair was taken by Professor Shand. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary, in the absence of Mr. O'Korke, brought up the report of the Committee appointed to visit Bishopdale College, Nelson, which was read as follows: — The Committee, consisting of the Eev. W. E. Mulgan and Mr. O'Eorke, visited this College on Friday, the 4th April, 1879. The ground for inspecting this institution was solely that of its being affiliated to the New Zealand University. The College is not in the enjoyment of any Government endowment., and has not participated in any of the funds granted

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by the New Zealand University to certain affiliated institutions. The College is maintained by the Bishop of Nelson for the purpose of training students for holy orders in the Church of England. There were five students in attendance and engaged in study at the time of the Commissioners' visit. The Committee was received by the Bishop, and by him shown over the library, students' study-rooms, and dormitories. The Bishop acts as principal and tutor, and has a staff consisting of a lecturer in physical science, a tutor in classics, a tutor in modern languages, an assistant tutor, and a teacher in music. The students are all taught music, and they live with the Bishop's family. Tho accommodation for the students is of the most superior character. The object of the Bishop in having this College affiliated to the New Zealand University—in order that his divinity students might also study for degrees in arts —appeared to your Committee to be a most laudable one. Eeport adopted, and ordered to be entered on the minutes. The Secretary, in the absence of Mr. O'Eorke, brought up the report of the Committee appointed to visit Canterbury College, which was read as follows : — This is a fine academical building, and, wdien the additional wing (now being added) is completed, will provide ample accommodation for the professors and students. The utmost readiness was exhibited by the authorities and professors of the College to enable the Committee to witness the working of the institution. On the 7th April the Committee were present at Professor Brown's classes. The first subject of study was Suetonius; aud the class consisted of three young ladies and six gentlemen. The students translated very creditably at sight, and their attention appeared entirely engrossed in the subject of their study. This class was followed by a lecture on Milton's youthful poems, at which five young ladies and fifteen young gentlemen were present. The lecture lasted for an hour, and the attention of all the pupils was completely engaged throughout by the lecturer. The Committee were present at Professor Cook's class in algebra, when two young ladies ar.d eleven male pupils were present. The pupils seemed to take a great interest in the subject of their study, and devoted the utmost attention to the explanations of the lecturer. On a subsequent day the Committee again attended the classical lecturer, when his class was being examined in the First Book of Xcnophon. The class was composed of seven pupils, of whom one was a lady. Tbe Committee was much struck with the proficiency displayed in a later exercise of translation at sight from English into Greek. The Committee were also present at an honours class of two pupils, the subject of instruction being Theocritus and Apollonius Ehodius. Professor Bickerton lectured in chemistry before your Committee. The lecturer in biology gave two lectures before your Committee —one on the phenomena of reproduction, and the other consisting of a demonstration of the anatomy of the mussel as a specimen of the lamellibranchiata. The Committee are aware that they have but scantily described the working of the Canterbury College, as manifested before them by the several courses of lectures at which they were present; but, on the general question of the type of education afforded by the College, the Committee desire to unhesitatingly affirm that this institution is capable of bestowing a genuine academical education, and must be most beneficial to all coming to it for tuition. The professors, independently of their proved fitness for their several offices, show the utmost zeal for the promotion of the studies of their pupils, as well as for the advancement of the College as a means of bestowing University education. Some dissatisfaction appeared to exist in Christchurch on account of some of the classes being held so late n3 8 o'clock in the evening ; but, although it may appear desirable that the ordinary college students should have their attendance on lectures over by 2 or 3 o'clock in the afternoon, the Committee do not think it necessary to interpose any recommendation on the subject, as they are aware that there is a class of studentß in Christchurch, who, being otherwise employed during the day, could only attend the College lectures by means of evening classes. The matter appears to your Committeo to be one that had best be left to the local authorities of the College to deal with. Eeport adopted, and ordered to be entered on the minutes. The Eev. AY. J. Habens brought up the report of the Committee appointed to visit the Normal School, Christchurch, which was read as follows :— The Committee appointed by the Eoyal Commission to inspect the Normal School at Christchurch beg to report that at the time of their visit the school was not in its ordinary working condition. The former first master of the boys' side of the practising school had been lately appointed by the Board to the charge of another school, and, his place not having been filled, his work was divided between the principal and the tutors, whose services are usually devoted to the instruction of the students in (he training department. Theiirst mistress of the girls' school was absent on account of illness, and the mistress of the infant department, which includes the kindergarten, was also in ill-health. Most of the students had lately been sitting at the examination for certificates, and had been granted a short leave of absence, which was judged to be necessary for their recreation. Owing to these causes the institution was in a state of temporary disorganization, and the Committee was unable to obtain such a view of it as to justify them in offering any opinion as to its efficiency. The building, which is of stone, presents an imposing aspect. It seems, however, to have been planned rather with a view to external effect than to economy and convenience. It affords sufficient accommodation for the nine hundred children and the fifty students who are in attendance, except that the infant department appears to need rooms better adapted to its use. The kindergarten is carried on in the drill-shed, which stands in the school-grounds, and which, while it is admirably fitted for its proper use, is unsuited to infant-school purposes, being larger than one schoolroom ought to be, and having no fireplaces. Adjoining the drill-shed is a large gymnasium abundantly furnished with all necessary appliances. The students, and also the teachers of schools in town and country, receive instruction at the gymnasium to fit them for the conduct of gymnastic exercises in the schools of the district. The Committee observed with satisfaction that vocal music is taught with great care and thoroughness by Mr. Watkins, who, though principally engaged in the duties which devolve upon him as first tutor in the training department, gives instruction in singing in all the classes of the boys' and girls' schools. For further information as to the operations of the institution the Commission is referred to tho evidence given by Mr. Inglis, the Chairman of the Education Board, and Mr. Howard, the principal of the school. Eeport adopted, and ordered to be entered on the minutes. The Eev. VV. J. Habens brought up the report of the Committee appointed to visit tho Normal School, Dunedin, which was read as follows:— The Committee appointed by the Eoyal Commission to visit the Normal School at Dunedin beg to report as follows t— ■ The buildings appear to be sufficiently commodious, and their plan and construction are such as to secure great economy of room. The space for recreation is very limited, and, with the exception of the drill-ground among the piers which Bupport the building, absolutely useless when the weather is not fine. A gymnasium and a drill-shed will soon be available in a new building, in which are also four rooms, each containing a small separate school, having as many classes as woidd be necessary iv a country school with the same average attendance. Tbe object of this arrangement is to afford to students in training an opportunity of practice of a ditf'erent kind from that which they could obtain in the larger classes in the main building, and more like the work which they will probably have to undertake when they leave the institu* tion. This is an illustration of the practical character of the training which is here imparted, and one of the many evidences which presented themselves to us of the singular fitness of the rector, Mr. Fitzgerald, for the post which he occupies. AVo attended one of his lectures, the subject of which was the time-table prepared by him fo- use in the small separate schools already referred to, in which the students were about to be employed in teaching. The students are between fifty and sixty in number. The instruction which they receive in the Normal School is limited to tho subjects which they will be required to teach in the primary schools, and to the art and science of teaching. A few of the students who are sufficiently advanced to profit by such an arrangement are released from their engagements in the school during a part of the year, that they may attend the classes at the University. There are between six and seven hundred children in the practising school, and the discipline, as well as the quality and method of the instruction, appeared to us to be of a very satisfactory kind. Eeport adopted, and ordered to be entered on the minutes. The consideration of the interim report was resumed. On the motion of the Eev. AY. J. Habens, Resolved, That the word " mainly," in tho paragraph headed " Meriti and faults of Present System," be struck out, and the word " particularly " substituted in lieu thereof.

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It was resolved, That the interim report be submitted for adoption at 10.30 o'clock to-morrow morning, and that those members of the Commission resident in Dunedin who are not present be informed of this resolution. On the motion of Professor Cook, a Committee, consisting of Professors Sale and Brown, and the Eev. AY. J. Habons, was appointed to revise the draft Bill. Professor Shand left the chair, which was taken by Professor Brown. Mr. Robert Stout was in attendance, and examined. The Commission went into Committee to consider the question of the Presbyterian Church Trust. The Commission having resumed, the following resolution was reported and agreed to : —That, the following addition bo made to the interim report: "We have it in evidence that tho Synod of the Presbyterian Church of Otago has passed an interim Act, which will come up for final decision in January next, the object of which is to apply to the establishment and maintenance of a chair in a Presbyterian college the proceeds of certain educational endowments which have hitherto been deemed applicable to the establishment and maintenance of chairs in the University of Otsigo. This interim Act appears to have arisen out of a difference of opinion between the Synod and the Otngo University Council as to the particular chair in that University to the establishment of which the funds were to be appropriated, ln consequence of this difference of opinion these funds have been for some time lying idle. AYe are of opinion that the purpose contemplated in the interim Act of the Synod is contrary to the spirit of ' The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 18(i6;' and that a short Act should be passed—first, defining what college or University is entitled to receive the benefit of the endowments; and second, providing means for settling any difference of opinion between the Synod and the governing body of the college or University so defined." On the motion of Professor Brown, Resolved, That Professor Brown's evidence be not included in the minutes of evidence attached to the report, as it refers to an isolated point in tho inquiry, which the Commission has not the means of fully investigating. The Rev. W. J. Habens brought up the report of the Committee appointed to visit the Dunedin Boys' and Girls' High Schools, which was read as follows : — The Committees appointed to visit the Boys' and Girls' High Schools at. Dunedin have agreed to submit a joint report. The Commissioners are aware that, owing to the continuous consideration which it has been necessary to bestow upon tho preparation of the interim report, there has been very little time left for inspecting Dunedin institutions. The High Schools are under such able and vigorous "direction, and their general scheme is so satisfactory, that no detailed comment would be of much value, unless it wero based on a more minute inspection than the Committee was able to undertake. AYe think it right to mention that the arrangements for teaching physical science appear to be very good, and that writing is very carefully attended to. The Boys' School has suffered greatly from frequent changes in the administration ; but we see great reason to hope that, under Dr. Macdonald it will soon acquire a better position than it has ever held. The buildings are not well adapted to their purpose, and some of the rooms are very ill ventilated. The gymnasium is small, and the playground very insufficient. The advance sheets of the appendix to the report of the Commission contain so much information as to the operations of the schools, that we need not enter into detail here. AYe have great confidence in the ability and skill of the rector and the lady principal. The schools arc not affiliated to the University. Report adopted and ordered to be entered on the minutes. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Wednesday, 9th July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. AY. J. Habens, Dr. Macdonald, Eev. AY. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. On the motion of Professor Shand, the Eev. AY. E. Mulgan took the chair. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. On the motion of the Eev. AA. J. Habens, Resolved, That the report now on the table be adopted as the interim report of the Commission, and that it. bo signed and sent to His Excellency the Governor. Professor Sale read a statement expressing his dissent from the recommendation of the Commission as to the appointment of the professors to be University examiners. A statement was read expressing the distent of Professors Brown and Cook, the Eev. AY. J. Habens, Dr. Hector, the Eev. AY. E. Mulgan, and Dr. AA'allis from the recommendation to fix the seat of the University at Dunedin. Resolved, That the statements now read be appended to the report and signed by the Coaiurissioue.s whose views are set forth in them. The hands and seals of the Commissioners present were set to the report, and their signatures respectively attached to the statements of their dissent. Resolved, That the Eev. AY. E. Mulgan be added to the Committee on tho draft Bill. Resolved, That Dr. De Zouche be summoned to give evidence on the 10th instant. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on the following day at 10 o'clock a.m.

Thubsday, 10th July, IS7O. Tho Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professors Brown and Cook, Eev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Dr. Macdonald, Eev. AY. E. Mulgan, Professors Sale, Shand, and Ulrich. On the motion of Professor Shand, the Eev. AY. E. Mulgan took the chair. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Eev. AY. J. Habens laid on the table the draft Bill as revised by the Committee appointed to revise it. The Commission went into Committee to consider the draft Bill as reported. The Commission having resumed, the Committee reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again. Resolved, That the Secretary be instructed to confer with Mr. Stout as to the best form for a Bill to give effect to the proposals contained in the report of the Commission. Dr. Macdonald was further examined. Dr. De Zouche was in attendance, and examined. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at the same place on Monday, the 14th instant, at 10 o'clock a.m.

Monday, 14th July, 1879. The Commission met at the offices of the University of Otago, Dunedin, at 10 o'clock a.m. Present: Professor Cook, Eev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. AA\ E. Mulgan, Professors Shand and Ulrich. On the motion of Professor Cook, the Eev. AY. E. Mulgan took tho chair. The minutes of the proceedings of the Commission at last meeting were read and confirmed. The Secretary reported that he had seen Mr. Stout as directed ; and a letter from Mr. Stout was read giving advice as to form of draft Bill. On the motion of the Eev. AY. J. Habens, Resolved, That tho Commission resolve itself into Committee to proceed with the consideration of the draft Bill. The Commission resumed, and, the Committee's report being presented, Professor Cook moTed, and it was resolved, That the draft Bill, as amended by the Committee, be intrusted to tho care of the Chairman (Mr. O'Korke) and tho Secre* tary, and be by them placed at the disposal of the Government.

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The Secretary was instructed to pay £3 to the University porter. The Rev. W. J. Habens brought up the report of the Committee appointed to visit the University of Otago:— The Committee appointed to visit the University of Otago beg to report that, though the time at their disposal was very limited, they have been able to see so much of the operations of the institution as to satisfy themselves that a great deal of earnest and thorougli work is being done in it. The professors received the Committee with much readiness and great oourtesy, and conducted their classes in our presence. The present number of students in attendance is ill, divided into classes which vary in number from two students in the senior mathematical classes to upwards of fifty in the class of junior mathematics. We attended three lectures iv mathematics, lectures in Greek, Latin, and English, in mental philosophy, in anatomy, and in zoology. We consider that the instruction given in all these departments is of a very high order. It is to be regretted that some part of the work is of an elementary character; but this is tho case in the junior classes of Universities elsewhere; and we think that the Professors, who would naturally prefer to confine their attention to the more congenial duties connected with the senior classes, are acting wisely in recognizing the necessity of preparing for these classes students whose earlier education lias been insufficient, or who left school so long ago as to have almost forgotten what they once knew. Judging by the average age of the students, we are of opinion that the junior classes to which we have referred do not interfere to any considerable extent with the province of the secondary schools. In one respect the elementary work of the junior classes differs very greatly from similar work in a school—namely, in this: that, owing to the comparative maturity of the students of the University and to their interest in their studies, and perhaps also to the efficiency of their instructors, their rate of progress and the amount of work which they do are far beyond anything that could be expected in a boys' school. Some of the classes meet in the evening. This arrangement is, at first sight, objectionable ; but it appears to arise from the impossibility of making a time-table in any other way without holding concurrently two or more classes which the same students desire to join ; and it has the advantage of allowing persons who are engaged in business or tuition during the day to attend some of the lectures. The zoology class, at tho time of our visit, was engaged in practical work, each of the ten students being provided with a good microscope aud all appliances for dissection. Iv the anatomy class, too, the instruction was thoroughly practical, being illustrated by an admirable demonstration on the human subject. We did not attend any of the ordinary classes in chemistry ; but we think it right to report that, in order to promote the introduction of elementary science into the public schools, Professor Black has voluntarily instituted a short course of lectures in chemistry for the special benefit of school-teachers. His laboratory and lecture-theatre are not large enough to accommodate at one time all the teachers who attend. On the Saturday of our visit ninety teachers from the country were present. They listened to a lecture which lasted three hours, and was fully illustrated by experiment; and at the close of the lecture each of them spent an hour in laboratory work. We understand that at a later hour of the day ninety other teachers, belonging to Dunedin and the suburbs, attended and received similar instruction. Professor Black intends to follow up this course with one in elementary physics. The University buildings have cost about £33,000, and their appearance is worthy of the purpose for which they have been erected. The main building has not yet been handed over to the Couucil by the contractors ; but the separate block devoted to the departments of chemistry and anatomy i 3 in use, and four houses built for the professors are finished and occupied. Some of the classes are held at present in the museum. The School of Mines is not yet in full operation, and we were not able to attend the one class which has been formed iv connection with it. Resolved, That the report be entered on the minutes. The Secretary laid on the tablo the following report, which was read on the 24th February, but not then entered on the minutes :— The Committee appointed to visit and report upon the Eoman Catholic endowments in Auckland, inspected the schoolhouse recently erected on the allotment near Freeman's Bay on the 25th February, 1879. The allotment consists of 4 acres 3 roods, and is valued at £3,000. The position of the allotment is not central, but on the verge of tho city, overhanging the sea. The school is contiguous to the large convent and schools known as St. Mary's, where destitute and neglected children of the Roman Catholic denomination, to the number of six, are maintained at Government expense. This Freeman's Bay School is intended to be an adjunct of St. Mary's School, aud to be devoted to the reception of orphan, destitute, and half-caste children committed to St. Mary's by Government. There were no children present at the time of your Committee's visit, they being then receiving instruction in the main buildings. The building is a very excellent one, quite new, and scrupulously clean. The ground-floor is 80 feet long by 32 feet broad, and consists of a fine lofty room, 42 feet by 32 feet, containing eight windows, with smaller rooms attached. There is also a good-sized hall and corridor. On the upper storey there is a dormitory for girls, which contains eighteen beds. The room was extremely tidy, and the beds perfectly clean. The whole appearance of the building was most creditable. The occupants of tho bedrooms are poor girls from four to fifteen years of age, a few of whom are half-castes. The allotment is tolerably fenced with posts and rails. There is also on the allotment a small wooden cottage, much out of repair, which is to be removed, but is at present occupied by the woman who washes for St. Mary's Institute. The Commission adjourned, to meet again at Christchurch on Monday, the 24th November, 1879, at 11 o'clock a.m.

5—H. 1. (M. of Pro.)

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LIST OF WITNESSES EXAMINED.

WELLINGTON. Ist February, 1879. r»s.«f _-vid. Mr. H. J. Tancred, Chancellor of the University of New Zealand ... ... ... ... 1 3rd February, 1870. Mr. H. J. Tancred ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 5 4th February, 1879. Mr. H. J. Tancred ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 10 Mr. W. M. Maskell, Registrar of the University of New Zealand ... ... ... ... 15 AUCKLAND. 10th February, 1879. Mr. D. A. Tole, Commissioner of Crown Lands ... ... ... ... ... ... 16 11th February, 1879. The Right Rev. W. G. Cowie, D.D., Bishop of Auckland, Member of tiie Board of Trustees of St. Stephen's Native School, and of the Boards of Governors of St. John's College and the Church of England Grammar School ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 20 The Rev. R. Burrows, Member of the Board of Trustees of St. Stephen's Native School, and of the Boards of Governors of St. John's College and the Church of England Grammar School, Local Secretary to the Church Missionary Society ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 27 The Rev. T. Buddie, Principal of Wesley College ... ... ... ... ... ... 32 12th February, 1879. His Honor Mr. Justice Gillies, Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Auckland College and Grammar School, late Superintendent of the Province of Auckland ... ... ... ... ... 37 The Very Rev. 11. ,I. Fynes, Vicar-General ... ... ... ... ... ... 45 Mr. J. Logan Campbell, M.D., Chairman of the Board of Education ... ... ... ... 50 The lion. Colonel T. M. Haultain, Member of the Boards of Governors of St. John's College, the Church of England Grammar School, and the Auckland College, aud of the Board of Education ... ... 54 13th February, 1879. Mr. Farquhar Macrae, Headmaster of the Auckland College and Grammar School ... ... ... 59 Mr. James Adams, 8.A., Headmaster of the Parncll Church of England Grammar School ... ... 71 14th February, 1879. Mr. J. A. Tole, M.H.R., Solicitor for the Roman Catholic Religious and Educational Endowment Trustees ... 80 Mr. R. H. 1). Firgusson ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 81 Mr. R. J. O'Sullivan, Inspector of Schools ... ... ... ... ... ... 83 Mr. F. L. Prime, Member of tho Board of Trustees of the Three Rings Wesleyan Estate ... ... 89 The Rev. J. Kinder, D.D., Principal of St. John's College ... ... ... ... ... 90 17th February, 1.79. Mr. H. H. Lusk, late Chairman of the Board of Education ... ... ... ... ... 93 The Rev. Samuel Edger, B.A ... ... ... ... ... ... 96 Mr. 1). L. Murdoch, a Governor of the Auckland College and Grammar School ... 98 Mr. F. Whitaker, M.11.R. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... „. 101 18th February, 1879. Mr. Neil Heath, Headmaster of the Auckland Girls' High School ... ... ... ... 102 Mr. F. Macrae, re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 106 Mr. Vincent E. Kiev, Secretary to the Board of Education ... ... ... ... ... m Mr. T. M. Phil-on, M.D., Provincial Surgeon ... ... ... ... ... ... 113 21st February, 1879. Mr. W. St. C. T. Tisdall, M.A. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... n5 The Rev. S. Edger, re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... 116 Mr. F. Macrae, re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 116 Mr. T. Kissling, Registrar of Deeds ... ... ... ... ... ... 119 Mr. T. Peacock, Mayor of Auckland, a Governor of the College and Grammar School ... ... 120 The Rev. CM. Nelson, M.A. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... '..'. 12 2 22nd February, 1879. Mr. J. F. Sloman, 8.A., Mathematical Master, Auckland College and Grammar School ... ... ... 124 Mr. C. A. Robertson, Assistant Master, Auckland College and Grammar School ... ... ... 127 Mr. G N. Phillips, Headmaster of Kauaeranga (Thames) Boys' School ... ... ... ... 129 The Vcn. Anhdiacon Maunsell, LL.D. ... ... ... ... ... ... 131 The Rev. R. Kidd, LL.D., late Headmaster of the Auckland College and Grammar School ... ... 134 24th February, 1879. Mr. W. Aitken ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 135 The Rev. B. Kidd, LL.D., re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... 137 Mr. D. A. Tole, reexamined ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 137

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NELSON. 31st Maech, 1879. F °e i,, of livid. The Right Eev. A. B. Suter, D.D., Bishop of Nelson, Trustee of the Motueka Native School ... ... 137 Mr. O. Curtis, M.H.R., formerly Superintendent of Nelson, a Governor of Nelson College ... ... 143 Mr. J. W. Barnicoat, a Governor of Nelson College ... ... ... ... ... ... 144 Mr. Eohert Pollock, Secretary to Nelson College ... ... ... ... ... ... 147 Ist April, 1879. The Rev. J. C. Andrew, M.A., Principal of Nelson College ... ... ... ... ... 150 Mr. H. C. Daniell, formerly Commissioner of Crown Lands ... ... ... ... ... 156 Mr. Percy B. Adams, Solicitor for Motueka Native School Estate... ... ... ... ... 157 Mr. Alexander Mackay, Commissioner of Native Beserves ... ... ... ... ... 158 Mr. J. S. Browning ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 161 3bd Apeil, 1879. Mr. Joseph Baker, Master of Motueka Native School... ... ... ... ... ... 162 4th Apbil, 1879. Mr. Matthew Camphell, Treasurer of Nelson School Society ... ... ... ... ... 166 Mr. .Tames T. Catley, Receiver of Land Revenue ... ... ... ... ... ... 168 CHRISTCHURCH. 12th April, 1879. Mr. W. Montgomery, M.H.R., Chairman of Board of Governors of Canterhury College ... ... ... 168 14th Apeil, 1879. Mrs. Ingle, Lady-Principal of Girls' High School ... ... ... ... ... ... 181 Professor Biekerton, F.C.S. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 183 Mr. J. V. Colborne-Veel, M.A., Secretary to the Education Board of North Canterbury, and a Governor of Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 188 15th Apeil, 1879. Mr. W. J. W. Hamilton, a Governor of Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... 192 16th Apeil, 1879. The Bight Rev. H. J. C. Harper, D.D., Bishop of Christchurch, Warden of Christ's College, a Governor of Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 196 Mr. J. N. Tosswill, a Governor of Canterbury College... ... ... ... ... ... 201 Mr. John Evans Brown, M.H.R. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 205 Mr. C. C. Corfe, 8.A., Headmaster of Christ's College Grammar School ... ... ... ... 206 Professor Julius yon Haast, Ph.D., F.R.S., Director of Museum ... ... ... ... ... 212 17in April, 1879. Mr. E. C. J. Stevens, M.H.!!., a Governor of Canterbury College... ... ... ... ... 215 Mr. C. C. Howard, Principal of Normal School ... ... ... ... ... ... 220 Mr. J. S. Turnbull, M.D., a Governor of Canterbury College, and Dean of the Medical Faculty ... ... 225 Mr. F. de C. Malet, a Governor of Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... 230 Mr. Llewellyn Powell, M.D., Lecturer in Biology in Canterbury College ... ... ... ... 233 18th Apeil, 1879. Mr. C. C. Bowen, M.H.R., a Governor of Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... 236 Mr. John Inglis, Chairman of the Education Board of North Canterbury, a Governor of Canterbury College ... 239 Mr. C. C. Corfe, re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 242 19th Apeil, 1879. His Honor Mr. Justice Johnston ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 244 Mr. Montgomery, re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 250 The Rev. Charles Fraser, M.A., a Governor of Canterbury College ... ... ... ... 252 Mr. C. C. Bowen, re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 253 Mr. W. Rolleston, M.H.R. ... ... ... ... ... ... 255 WELLINGTON. 22nd April, 1879. The Hon. M. S. Grace, M.D., M.L.C. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 258 Mr. Kenneth Wilson, M.A., Headmaster of Wellington College ... ... ... ... ... 260 23ed Apeil, 1879. The Hon. C. J. Pharazyn, M.L.C, Chairman of Education Board, Wellington ... ... ... 266 Mr. D. Peat ... '... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 267 The Right Rev. Octavius Hadfield, Bishop of Wellington, Trustee of certain reserves ... ... ... 269 Mr. Henry Jackson, a Governor of Wellington College, formerly Chief Surveyor for the Province of Wellington... 274 Mr. Robert Lee, Inspector oi Schools ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 281 24th April, 1879. Mr. C. C. N. Barron, Secretary to Civil Service Examination Board ... ... ... ... 282 Profes.or Kirk, F.L.S. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 286 Mr. W. Clark, Treasurer of Wesleyan Society in Wellington ... ... ... ... ... 290 Mr. James McKerrow, Assistant Surveyor-General ... ... ... ... ... ... 291 His Honor Mr Justice Richmond ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 295 25th Apeil, 1879. Mr. S. H. Cox, F.C.S., Assistant Geologist to the Colonial Government ... ... ... ... 298 Rev. J. Pater.on, a Governor of Wellington College ... ... ... ... ... ... 301

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DUNEDIN. 21bt June, 1879. pSg? J of Mr. W. Macdonald, M.A., LL.D., Rector of High School ... ... ... ... ... 307 Mr. D. Brent, M.A., Mathematical Master of High School ... ... ... ... ... 308 Mrs. Burn, Lady-Principal of Girls' High School ... ... ... ... ... ... 310 Mr. P. G-. Pryde, Secretary to Education Board ... ... ... ... ... ... 311 Mr. W. S. Fitzgerald, Rector of Normal School ... ... ... ... ... ... 313 Mr. D. Petrie, M.A., Inspector of Schools... ... ... ... ... ... ... 316 23bd June, 1879. Rev. D. M. Stuart, D.D., Vice-Chancellor of the Otago University, Chairman of Board of Governors of High School ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 319 Mr. W. H. Mansford, Registrar of the Otago University ... ... ... ... ... 327 24th June, 1879. Professor Scott, M.D. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 330 Professor Hutton, F.G.S. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 335 Professor Black, M.A., D.Sc. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 343 His Honor Mr. Justice Williams, a Member of the Council of the Otago University ... ... ... 346 Mr. District-Judge Bathgate, a Member of the Council of the Otago University ... ... ... 349 25th June, 1879. Professor Macgregor, M.A., M.B. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 356 The Rev. Professor Salmond, M.A., Professor of Theology in the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland ... 365 Mr. T. M. Hocken, M.R.C.S.E. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 367 Mr. Millen Coughtrey, M.8., CM. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 370 Mr. George Cowie, General Manager of the Colonial Bank of New Zealand ... ... ... ... 376 Mr. William Brown, M.8., Lecturer in Surgery in the Otago University ... ... ... ... 376 Mr. E. W. Alexander, M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P. ... ... ... ... ... ... 379 2nd July, 1879. Rev. D. M. Stuart, D.D., re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 381 Mr. Maxwell Bury, Architect of the University Buildings ... ... ... ... ... 386 sth July, 1879. Mr. Robert Gillies... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 388 7th July, 1879. The Hon. W. H. Reynolds, M.L.C, a Member of the Presbyterian Church Property Board ... ... 391 Mr. Edmund Smith, Factor to the Presbyterian Church Property Board ... ... ... ... 393 The Rev. James Copland, M.A., M.D., Ph.D., Moderator of the Synod of the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 394 Bth July, 1879. Mr. Robert Stout ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 400 Mr. Macdonald, M.A., LL.D,, re-examined ... ... ... ... ... ... 403 Mr. Isaiah de Zouche, M.D. ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 404

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Wellington, Satukdat, Ist February, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Rorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Dr. Macdonald, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Mr. Cutten, Professor Sliand, Rev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Dr. Hector, Dr. Wallis. Mr. H. J. Tanceeb sworn and examined. 1. The Chairman.] You are the Chancellor of the New Zealand University ?—Yes. 2. How long have you held that position?— About seven years. 3. Do you remember the date of your appointment as a member of the University Council ?—The 3rd February, IS7I. 4. Did the University Act of 1870 provide that the University of Otago should have power to amalgamate with the University of New Zealand, provided an agreement were entered into by the two Universities within six months from the passing of the Act ?—Yes. 5. Was the Council of the New Zealand University convened before the expiry of the six months prescribed in the Act?— The Act was passed on the 12th September, 1870, and the Council was not convened until May, 1871, the interval being of course more than six months. 6. Can you state whoso duty it was to summon the Council ?—The Act did not prescribe any mode for calling the Council together. Mr. Gisborne, who was then Colonial Secretary, writing on the 28th April, 1871, says, "I regret the delay that will have occurred after the appointment of the Council before their meeting can take place, but the Act unfortunately omits to provide the exact mode of calling together the first meeting of the Council." This letter appears in the Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives for 1871, G.-8. 7. Professor Shand.~] By whom was the first meeting of the Council convened?—By the Governor, who issued a notice in the Gazette. 8. The Chairman.] Can you give any information respecting the reasons for the delay which took place in the convening of the first meeting of the New Zealand University Council ?—No. 9. Professor Shand.] Was the University of Otago thereby deprived of the opportunity of exercising the power conferred upon it under the Act?— From its having been limited to six months I should suppose it would have that effect. 10. The Chairman.'] How did this delay affect the prospects of amalgamation between the two Universities ?—I do not think that practically it affected them at all; because there were certain attempts made during the first session of the Council to arrange for an amalgamation independently of the Act. There is an entry in the Minutes and Proceedings of the Council, dated May, 1871, to this eft'ect: "That, with the view to the amalgamation of the University of New Zealand and the Otago University, it is expedient that a conference be held between the Councils of the respective Universities, for the purpose of considering the terms upon which amalgamation may be effected, and that the Chairman be requested to arrange for such conference with the Otago University Council." That was moved by Mr. Macandrew, and agreed to. 11. Professor Shand.] Do you know whether those negotiations were conducted on the basis of the Act ?—Yes, I think they were. 12. The Act provides that, in the case of an agreement being made within six months, the University shall be established at Dunedin. The 19th clause says, "If the said Council of the said University of Otago shall within six months from the passing of this Act enter into such agreement as aforesaid for dissolving the said University and for the transfer of its endowments, then the said University of New Zealand shall be established at Dunedin." Can you say whether the negotiations afterwards were entered into on this basis ?—On quite an independent basis—so far as the localization of the University at Dunedin is concerned. 13. Rev. W. J. Habens.] Are you of opinion, that, if the Council had been summoned within the six months prescribed by the Act, an agreement could have been come to such as was contemplated in the Act ?—I could not say. 14. The Chairman.] Referring to section 19 of "The University Act, 1870," which provided that, in case of non-agreement between the University of Otago and the University of New Zealand, the University of New Zealand might be founded at such other place within the colony as the Governor in Council should direct, waw any attempt made to establish a University in any other locality than Dunedin?—No. 15. Can you explain the reason of the omission ?—No. 16. Referring to your report to the University Council, 1872, what were the impediments which till that time had " prevented the University from taking action in any direction at all " ?—The nonexistence of any statutes or regulations. In my letter to the Colonial Secretary dated the 23rd January, 1872, 1 state, " You are no doubt aware, as indeed you have already informed me in previous communications, that the Council can exercise none of the powers given to it by the Act, nor can it

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perform any functions at all, c .cept under regulations or statutes approved of by His Excellency." The Governor up to that tin.c had withheld his approval; but when he assented to the statutes and regulations actiou was taken under them, and therefore the impediment to the action of the University was removed. 17. Dr. Hector.] Do you mean that the assent of tho Governor had been withheld or had not been granted, because the term "withheld" implies positive action ? —There had merely been delay. The Government had arrived at no decision on the subject. 18. Professor Cook.] Was there any particular reason for the delay ?—The Government proposed to limit the operation of these regulations to a certain time, or rather until a certain date, and to make them invalid after that date ; and the reason they gave was that the limit of time was required in order to negative beforehand any claim that might be made by the holders of scholarships and lectureships to have their tenure considered permanent, and to provide against its being hereafter pretended that interests had been created which could not properly he disturbed. In confirmation of this I may refer to a letter of the then Colonial Secretary addressed to me, dated the 17th October, 1871, which will be found in the Appendix to the Journals of the House of Eepresentatives, 1871, G.-S__. 19. Then do I understand that the delay was really caused by the Government taking time to come to this conclusion?—Tes ; it was a long time before the Government, on those grounds, would assent to or disapprove of any regulations. 20. Professor Shand.] Are you aware what object the Government had in view in taking the course thus indicated by the Colonial Secretary ?■ —1 don't know what object they had ; but I suppose their reason was that they w rere undecided as to whether they would eventually advise His Excellency to approve of the regulations or to disallow them. 21. Do you know whether this doubt was held in view of legislation at the next session of Parliament ?—I do not know. There was some correspondence about legislation ; but Ido not think it was. 22. Dr. Sector.'] "Was there any other ground for the delay beside that stated in the letter of the Colonial Secretary ?—Not that lam aware of. There is no other ground in the letter of the Colonial Secretary of the 12th October, in which he says, "The Government are advised, however, that the regulations ought to have required that the scholarships, so far as supplied out of the £3,000 appropriated by the General Assembly, shall be scholarships in the University, and not scholarships in affiliated institutions." 23. Professor Cook.] Then, in fact, the Government were in doubt as to the legality of the position which the University had taken up P —Tes, it seems so. 24. The Chairman.] Can you explain why the Council gave up the idea of providing instruction directly, and adopted the course of accepting the instruction given by affiliated institutions ? —No, I cannot. 25. Professor Drown.] Do you think that the University would have taken any other form had it possessed larger resources ? —That is a matter of opinion : I could not say. 26. It was not discussed ?—I think not. 27. Dr. Hector.] Had tho University, at the time of its first meeting, any control over the endowments which had been set aside for University purposes ? —No. 28. "When did it acquire control of the eudowments ?—lt has not got them now. 29. Has it ever held them ? —No. 30. The Chairman.] Is the present mode of appointing members of the Senate, in your opinion, a suitable ono ? If not, can you suggest any alteration ? —I do not know that any practical evil has arisen from the present modo of appointment. None has occurred that lam aware of. 31. Dr. Sector.] Have you formed any opinion as to whether thero is any more desirable method which could be adopted ? —My idea is that it would he better if they were appointed for their literary qualifications. That is merely my private opinion. 32. Tou mean not purely nominated by the Government? —Tes. 33. The Chairman.] Do you think it more desirable that members of the Senate should be appointed for life, or for a term of years ? —I have not considered that question. I think it would depend very much on the mode of appointment. I may say that there was a suggestion made, with which I agreed in my private opinion, that it would be a good plan to have the Senate elected by the graduates of the University, whether ad eundem or otherwise. 34. Can you give any definition of the powers of the Chancellor, distinguishing such as he usually receives by delegation from the Senate ? —The Chaucellor, as I understand, possesses no powers except the delegated power of appointing examiners. 35. Does he receive that power from the Senate ?—Tes. 36. Professor Drown.] Have you not some other powers with regard to the interchange of scholars from affiliated institutions ?—Tes; but those arc by special regulations. 37. Rev. W. J. Habens.] Are there not certain administrative powers that must belong to the Chancellor beside those which have been mentioned ? —Tes, there are the Scholarship Examinations, for instance, in reference to which tho Chancellor is empowered " to make rules or orders for such matters of detail as may be required for the effectual carrying out of the foregoing regulations." 38. Are all other powers of administration conferred either by statute or by delegation upon the Eegistrar ?—I do not think the Eegistrar has any powers. 39. Arc the powers which you have described all those which are exercised by authority of the University when the Senate is not sitting ?—Those arc all the powers which are given expressly ; but there are certain administrative powers which are assumed to belong to the Chancellor—he carries on the business of the University while the Senate is not in session. 40. Professor Cook.] Such powers, for example, as the interpretation of the regulations ?—He interprets them for his own action, but not for the public. He takes the action under the regulations which he conceives to be consistent with law. 41. Dr. Hector.] Did not the Act of 1870 provide for the governing body of the University being

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elected by the whole body of graduates, whether ad eundem holders of degrees or otherwise ? —The vacancies wero to be filled up by the Senate, which was to consist of at least thirty graduates. lam talking of the original Act, and the Senate under that Act corresponds with the Convocation under the present law r. 42. Was it understood at that time that the thirty graduates were to include or exclude ad eundem graduates ? —To include them. 1 believe the Attorney-General's opinion was that it included ad eundem graduates. At all events, the Council assumed that it did. 43. The Chairman.] Do you think it desirable that, in the exercise of any of the powers referred to, the Chancellor should receive any advice or assistance from Boards or Committees appointed for that purpose?—My opinion is it would not be desirable, because it would prevent promptness of action. 44. Professor Drown.] Do you think Boards of advice would be of assistance in interpreting the regulations ?—I think the Chancellor is bound himself to find out what is the interpretation. It would be merely dividing the responsibility. 45. Professor Cook.] I think I understood you to say just now that you did not interpret regulations ? —Only for my own action. This is my idea: Supposing auybody were to make a claim to a degree, to money, or to anything else, I should say either " Tes " or " No " to that. 46. If a student writes to you during the recess, asking you to interpret a regulation which bears on his course of study, is there no authority by which that interpretation can be given ? —lt is a mere legal question—a question for his lawyer or my lawyer. You cannot put a meaning on a statute which it will not bear. 47. Professor Drown.] Then the students are left in a difficulty ? —They have got to interpret the statute. If lam wrong of course lam responsible for the error. 48. And supposing the student makes a mistake in his interpretation, is he liable for the results of his mistake ? —Everybody who makes a mistake in law is liable for that mistake. 49. Then if there are any ambiguities in the regulations tho student must interpret them himself; and if he makes a mistake —for instance in taking a book—would it be taken into consideration in deciding as to his examination ?—The Chancellor has no decision to give with regard to an examination : that is left for the examiners to decide. It appears to me that no person in the colony, not even the Governor himself, has any power in interpreting regulations. It is a question of law. 50. Professor Cook.] Tou don't think the interpretation might be influenced by the Chancellor's knowledge of the intentions of the Senate at the time they made the regulations ? —lf I had any doubt as to the wording of a regulation I would cast all that ou one side and go to a lawyer for his opinion. It would not be right to put a meaning on a statute which its words would not bear. 51. Dr. Hector.] Tou mean you have no authority delegated to you to alter the regulations in any way from the strict sense their wording convoys ? —Certainly. If the wording does not convey the meaning of the Senate so much the worse. 52. The Chairman.] In fact they speak for themselves ? —Tes. It is not the practice in interpreting an Act to take tho intention of the Legislature, except as may bo gathered from the Act itself. 53. Dr. Hector.] From your experience do you think it would bo desirable that there should be a Board of any kind which should possess the power of altering the regulations during the recess ? —No, I certainly do not. ' 54. Professor Drown.] Then the student must take his chance eleven months out of the twelve ? He must w rait for the next meeting of tho Senate in order to get a regulation explained if it is ambiguous ? —I think there is a misapprehension. I don't think tho Senate has the power of explaining a regulation. No power can explain a regulation. If it does not express what the Senate means the Senate can alter it, but has no power itself of interpreting a regulation; nor has the .Parliament of Great Britain the power of interpreting Acts, except of course by an Interpretation Act, which is a new Act. 55. The Chairman.] lief erring to " Becommendations and Announcements " (pp. 64-71, University Calendar), defining the scope of the matriculation aud B.A. degree examinations, aro not these recommendations or announcements virtually regulations ? —I do not think they are. As I understand it, they are made under the 21st section of the Act, which provides that the Senate shall carry on examinations. 56. Can you point to any regulations defining tho scope of tho examinations in the several subjects? —The regulations specifying the conditions of matriculation and subjects for matriculation examination, and the regulations specifying the terms to be kept and examinations to be passed for the B.A. degree. 57. Professor Shand.] Do not those regulations merely name the several subjects without defining the limits of the examination in each subject ? —Tes. 58. Professor Drown.] Then the only statute or regulation which the student can take as trustworthy for a period of years is that in page 53 of the Calendar, which says he must study " Greek language and literature.;" and he cannot depend as a constant element on tho regulation in page 65, which says " Selected portions of the works of one prose and one verse author; translation of simple unseen passages ; questions on rudiments of grammar, &c.; an easy passage for trauslation from English into Greek prose " ? —I do not think he can depend on either. 59. But why should not the recommendation go along with the regulation ? What is the difference between the two ?—Because they are necessarily changing from one year to another. 60. The recommendation in paste 65 has not changed for a period of years. It has as much validity as that in page 53, " Greek language and literature," which is included in the regulations ?— No; Ido not say that. In your question you put it that the student could place no dependence on the one. What I say is that, strictly speaking, he can place no dependence on either, because the regulation may be altered just as much as the announcement. 01. So far as changes are concerned the one is as little to be depended on as the other ?—Tes; or as much. 62. Then why should this constant element appear amongst the recommendations and announce-

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ments, and not amongst the regulations ? —The only reason it was put there was because it was so recommended by the Professors of Otago, who were consulted on the subject. 63. Dr. Hector.] Are not the recommendations and announcements, from page 65 to 71, in the Calendar, to which reference has just been made, controlled by the announcements which immediately follow them, so that practically they refer only to a limited period of time ? As the Senate retains the right of altering and amending them by those further announcements that are given for a denned year, are they really in the nature of regulations ? —The recommendations and announcements after page 71 no doubt interpret or carry out those from page 65 to 71. 61. In the same way that the examination papers carry out those announcements still further ?— Tes. 65. Professor Shand.] Did the Professorial Boards of Otago and Canterbury mate a distinct recommendation that these Schedules should not be incorporated in the regulations ? —I do not think the question was considered at all, either by the Professorial Boards or by the Senate. The question of whether they ought to be incorporated in the regulations or excluded arose subsequently. Ido not think this question was thought material at the time. But it was thought more convenient to place them outside than inside the regulations. I believe that was the general opinion, and I never heard an objection to it until some time afterwards. 66. Do you think it would be desirable that the regulations of the University should contain schedules specifying the scope of the examination ?—I think it would. 67. The Chairman.] Do you think it desirable that holders of ad eundem degrees should be admitted to vote in Convocation ? —Yes. 68. On what grounds do you base that opinion ?—Shortly, I should say on the ground that the Senate would be elected by persons who had had some experience of universities in the old country, and who would have a qualification for appointing the body which v. as to supervise the University education of New Zealand. 69. Have you any opinion or suggestion to offer with regard to the powers of Convocation ?—No —beyond those already possessed. 70. What advantages and what practical inconveniences arise from the Senate changing its place of meeting from year to year ? —I think, generally, that one advantage is that they acquire a knowledge of the different parts of the colony; and Ido not think there is any very great inconvenience, because they are merely an examining body. 71. In case of making new regulations, or of altering existing regulations, has it been the custom of the Senate to take steps for making known the proposed changes to the affiliated institutions, so as to give them an opportunity of expressing an opinion upon them before they are submitted to the Governor in Council ?—No. 72. Do you think it desirable that steps should be taken ?—I think not in every case, owing to the delay that would be caused. 73. In case of resolutions of the Senate interpreting or supplementing regulations or announcements, are they regarded by the Chancellor and Senate as binding until rescinded ? If not, how far and how long are they effective ? —I always consider them binding. Anything that is done by the Senate I consider binding until it is rescinded. 74. Do you think it desirable that resolutions affecting the conduct of examinations— e.g., allotting marks to various subjects—should be published in the University Calendar ?—I do not see any objection to that. 75. Professor Drown.] There are certain resolutions which are not inserted in the Calendar ? —Oh, yes, a great number. 76. That referred to in the Chairman's question is one, is it not ? —Tes; it is contained in the Minutes; but I think the course suggested would be desirable. 77. The Chairman.] Are detailed instructions furnished to examiners and supervisors ? If so, by whom are these instructions framed ? —The Senate lays down the rules for the supervisors. No instructions have been given to the examiners as to the way in which the papers should be prepared, but resolutions wero transmitted to them containing some instructions with regard to the concealment of examination papers in order to insure secrecy. I will read specimens of letters written to the examiners this year, which will show how they are instructed. [Letters read. See Appendix IV.] 78. Professor Shand.] I observe that changes have been made in the time allotted to several of the papers —changes were made this year. Was that clone by direction of the Senate, or by the Chancellor ?—lt was done in order to carry out the directions of the Senate. It was complained that the time occupied in the examination was too long, and the Senate thought a change had better be made. 79. Professor Cook.] Was it members of the Senate who complained, or examiners, or teachers ? —I cannot say who it was, but it was generally understood in the Senate that the examinations should not bo so long. 80. Had there been a complaint from any of the professors or teachers, or had the examiners complained, there would, I presume, have been a letter on tho subject ? —I cannot recollect the reason ; only it was found inconvenient that the examination should last so long. 81. The ChairmanJ] Is it found that students frequently have difficulties in interpreting the regulations or announcements, &c. ?—Questions have arisen; there have been doubts among the students. 82. What process does the Senate adopt in selecting examiners ? —They have now delegated the power to the Chancellor. 83. Where you, as Chancellor, have been intrusted with the selection of examiners, on what grounds did you make your selection? —There is a resolution laying down the principle which should guide the Chancellor. It will be found in the Minutes of Proceedings for 1877, page 25, and is as follows : " That the Chancellor be instructed to place himself in communication with the Universities of Sydney and Melbourne, with the view of obtaining a Board of Examiners for this year ; and further, to inquire how far it would be practicable to effect an interchange of examiners between the University and the Universities of Australia in future years."

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84. Professor Brown.] Was there any previous resolution laying down a principle for selection of examiners ? —Here is a resolution in page 22 of the Minutes and Proceedings for 1876 : " That the Chancellor be requested to obtain information from the Senate of the London University on the subject of the extension generally to New Zealand of their matriculation examinations, aud on that of enabling persons in this colony to compete for a Gilchrist Scholarship, now understood to be open, of one hundred pounds (£100) a year, belonging to the London University." There is no other resolution. 85. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Has the choice of examiners at any time been delegated to you absolutely, and without special instructions ? —Yes. 86. On such occasions by what general principles have you been guided in making the selection ? —The standing and qualifications of the examiners; and also a wish to take the examining body from different parts of the colony. 87. The Chairman.] Has there been any difficulty in procuring the services of suitable persons as examiners within the colony ? —I think there is a great difficulty in finding suitable examiners who are unconnected with any educational institution —otherwise not. 88. Does such difficulty arise in the case of all examinations equally ? —I think so. 89. Dr. Hector.] Is it undesirable that the examiners should be connected with educational establishments in the colony? —I think so. 90. The Chairman.] Was any application made to tho University of Melbourne, or to any of its officers, for assistance in selecting examiners for the past two years ? —Yes. 91. Professor Cook.] Was application made individually to the examiners, or to the Chancellor or Vice-Chancellor ? —The Chancellor was applied to, but, he being absent, the Vice-Chancellor answered the letter.

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Wellington, Monday, 3rd Pebritart, 1879. Present: Mr. G-. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Dr. Macdonald, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Mr. Cutten, Professor Shand, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich. Dr. Hector, Mr. H. J. Tancred was further examined. 92. The Chairman.] What end, Mr. Chancellor, has the University had iv view in affiliating educational institutions ? —I think the University wished to have control of the higher education. I think that was one object—to direct and control the higher education of the colony. 93. What do the institutions gain by affiliation ? —The principal gain is that the students for degrees can only take their degrees by passing through affiliated institutions, and scholarships can only be held in affiliated institutions. 94. Professor Shand.] By the words " higher education " which you used just now do you include secondary education ?—I include those who are training for Universiiy degrees. 95. The Chairman.] Do you think it desirable that there should be any limit to the number of affiliated institutions in one town ?—I do not think so, if the institutions are capable of giving a proper education. 96. Are there instances in which there is more than one affiliated institution in the same town ? —Tes. 97. Do you think it desirable that school and University education should be combined in the same educational institution ? —I think in the circumstances of the colony it is desirable. 98. Do you think it desirable that theological colleges should be affiliated ? —lf they give a proper amount of instruction in the subjects required by the University I do not see any objection to it. 99. Eeferring to the University Calendar, 1873, page 22, " Conditions of Affiliation," and especially to that part of the regulation which prescribes that any institution seeking affiliation shall satisfy the Council that it is competent to supply " adequate instruction" in certain branches of education, will you state what interpretation was put by the Council upon the words " adequate instruction"? —The most satisfactory way of answering that question I think would be to refer the Commission to page 5 of the Minutes of Proceedings of the Council of the University for 1874, where there is given a detailed account of the subjects taught at affiliated institutions which were apparently satisfactory to the Senate. That was in 1874. 100. Professor Shand.] What were the institutions which were affiliated to tho University at that time ? —The Auckland College and Grammar School, the Wellington College and Grammar School, the Nelson College, and the Canterbury Collegiate Union. 101. And the Senate at that time apparently considered that all these institutions wore supplying adequate University instruction ? —I presume so, from their having accepted those subjects I have mentioned. That was before the reorganization of tho University. 102. The Chairman.] Eeferring to the existing regulations on the same subject, Calendar 1878, pages 48 and 49, which proscribe that institutions seeking affiliation shall bo competent to supply " a three-years course of instruction" in certain subjects, do you understand the words " course of instruction" to mean University instruction, or such instruction as is usually given in schools?— Instruction which will enable them to obtain the B.A. degree. 103. In appropriating sums of £300 as annual subsidies to affiliated institutions, did the Senate, in your opinion, intend to provide them with the means of giving University instruction ?—Yes; I think so.

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104. What steps have been taken by the Senate to satisfy themselves that the several affiliated institutions fulfil the conditions of affiliation ? —There were two periods, —one under the regulations in the Calendar of 1873, and another after 1874, —-and therefore there could be two answers to that question. In the former period the Council, which corresponds to the present Senate, held annual examinations of undergraduates, aud also provided on one occasion for an inspection of all the affiliated institutions. There was the annual examination of students :of course the University did not take any notice of others who were studying at the same institutions. They had an annual examination of students, and, on one occasion—-I believe it was contemplated to do it every year—they caused all the affiliated institutions to be inspected. Then, with regard to the second period, the annual examination was done away with, but tho Senate endeavoured to judge indirectly by means of the results of the examinations for scholarships, and for two-year students aud three-year students. 105. Professor Cook.] "What was the nature of the inspection which was made? "Was there anything in the nature of an examination at the time, or did the inspecting officer merely attend the institution and see what mode was adopted in giving instruction ? —The report of the examiner was founded on his attending the classes of the institutions, and seeing what instruction was given, and how it was given. Ido not think he examined. His report will be found in the Appendix to the Journals of the House of Eepresentatives, H.-3a. 10G. Dr. Hector.] I should like to know whether the University, with the view of extending its application beyond the affiliated institutions, did not pass a resolution which appears on page 31 of the Minutes and Proceedings of 1872 to the effect, " That, in the opinion of this Council, students who have matriculated, other than those who are holding University scholarships, are not required to enter their names upon the books of any affiliated institution, or to attend the lectures of such institution, provided that they present themselves annually for the University examination as prescribed by regulation in that behalf;" and whether any effect was given to that resolution, and if any students took advantage of _t ? —lt is not now in force. Some students did take advantage of it. 107. Have they succeeded in taking a degree, or any steps towards a degree?—Tes; three have obtained degrees—under regulation. 108. Owing to what circumstance did the resolution cease to have application ? —The old regulations lapsed and came to an end last year. 109. "Why was this regulation omitted in the new arrangement. "Was it discussed ? —Oh, yes. 110. Do you remember what reason was given, or at whose instigation it ceased? —No, I cannot. It was considered, generally, unsatisfactory that the course of study should be carried on in an institution in which the University had not confidence. 111. Do you consider that by that action the University has abandoned all control over education other than through recognized affiliated institutions ? —Yes. 112. Professor Cook.] 1 think the gentlemen to whom you have referred as having obtained degrees obtained them under the old regulations ?—Yes. 113. But under the present regulations I believe it is not compulsory that a student should attend lectures, provided he follows a course of study under some affiliated institution and passes an examination ?—There is an escape from the strict rule; but it is only on the Chancellor being satisfied that it is right. The words are, " shall bo shown to the satisfaction of the Chancellor that circumstances preclude them from such attendance." 114. Professor Shand.] Has the Chancellor ever granted exemption from attendance at lectures under the present regulations ?—ln one case. 115. What were the circumstances which satisfied the Chancellor that the student was unable to attend the lectures ? —He was a teacher at a public school situated at a distance from the institution. 116. Dr. Hector.] I would like to ask if, therefore, the spirit of the resolution under tho old regulations is not, practically, still in force ? —No; the Senate believe that those old regulations are now done away with. No student has any claim under the old regulations. 117. I was referring more to the spirit of tho resolution, which said that attendance at lectures was not necessary. That that is still in force I gather from the fact that under the new regulations a student has been exempted from attending lectures ?—The spirit of the old regulation is dife'erent from the spirit of the new one. The rule under the new regulation is that all students should attend the course of lectures at affiliated institutions, and they can only be exempted under special circumstances. Under the old regulation they had a right to exemption, and need not apply to be excused. 118. The Chairman.] Has any institution applied for affiliation, and had its application refused by the Senate ? —I think not. 119. Dr. Macdonald.] Did tho High School of Dunedin apply for affiliation? —Tho Dunedin High School never applied for affiliation. I can state exactly what led to the belief that it did apply. The Council having received a telegram from the Deputy Superintendent of Otago, as Chairman of the Board of Education in Dunedin, to the effect that the Dunedin High School was going to apply for affiliation, the Council of the University reserved £300 per annum to be given to the High School when it should be affiliated. But shortly afterwards, on the 15th April, while the Council was in session, a telegram was received from the Eector of the High School, stating that the application had actually been forwarded six months previously. I informed the Council of the receipt of both these telegrams at the time, but stated that the application alluded to had never reached me. Under these circumstances the Council acted on the assumption that the application had been made, but that from some accident it had never come to hand, and it was thought inexpedient to exclude the High School from all share in the grant merely on this ground. The head of the Otago Executive, who I believe was Chairman of the Education Board of Otago, informed me that the Board had resolved to apply for affiliation ; but within a few days that decision was reversed, and I received either a letter or a telegram saying that they would not apply. 120. The Chairman.] The University has made provision for granting degrees iv arts, law, and

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music : do you think it desirable that similar provision should be made in the departments of science and medicine ? —Yes, I think so, tinder corresponding restrictions —namely, that the student should have passed an examination in arts. 121. Has any attempt been made to organize a faculty of medicine, and, if so, what were the causes of failure ? —-There have been some attempts ; but action was deferred in order that information might bo obtained from England on the subject. 122. Professor Cook.] That was last year ?—Yes. 123. In previous years there was an attempt made to establish a faculty of medicine, was there not ? —There wore proposals brought before the Senate. 124. Dr. Hector.] Do you consider that the attempt to organize a medical faculty is now in progress ? —Yes. 125. Professor Shand.] Do you consider it would be wise for the University to grant degrees in medicine, which would entitle the possessors to practise mediciue, without first exacting ample guarantees that the candidates for the degrees were sufficiently instructed ? —No ; certainly not. 126. Dr. Hector.] Do you consider it would be advisable that the University should grant professional degrees that would have no value outside the limits of the colony ? —I do not think any answer I could give to that would be of value. The great object should be to see that those who undertake to practise medicine are fully qualified. That is what I should look for, more than the recognition of the degrees. 127. Arc you aware that it is contemplated to introduce an Imperial Act, with the view of allowing colonial degrees in medicine to be placed upon the Imperial register ? —Yes. 128. And that the creation of any degrees before such an Act was introduced might impede its passing?— Yes ; I dare say it would have that effect. 129. The Chairman.] Do you think it desirable that the examiners for scholarships should form a Board, and should themselves, after conference, decide on the results of the examination, and award the scholarships ? —I think it would be desirable. 130. Do you think it desirable that tho reports of examiners for scholarships should bo printed in the Minutes of Proceedings of the Senate ? —Yes. I think it is more desirable that & precis should be made of them ; but I think the information given by the examiners ought to appear in the Minutes. 131. What rule is followed in awarding senior scholarships after the report of the examiners has been received ? —The senior scholarships are awarded on the report of the examiners. 132. Professor Cook.] Do the examiners recommend that the individuals who receive the scholarships should get them, or does the Chancellor make the award as the result of the marks ?—The senior scholarships are awarded in cases where the examiner reports that any candidates have passed with great credit. 133. Does that mean in a single subject?— Here is a report from one of the examiners:—"l have the honor to report as follows on the senior scholarship papers in mathematics : The candidate X has exhibited a degree of proficiency satisfactory to me. The candidates E, M, N, P, Q, E, S, have not shown satisfactory proficiency. —I have, &c, E. J. NansO-T." 131. Professor Shand.] Then the scholarships are awarded in consequence of proficiency in one subject, and not for general proficiency ? —Por great credit obtained in one subject, and for passing in the others. 135. Professor Drown.] Did all the four candidates of last year who received senior scholarships receive them in the same way as in the case to whicli you have referred ? —Yes ; on the same qualifications. 13G. As recommended by the examiners ? —Yes. 137. Bey. W. J. Habens.] The result in any case depending upon the reports of more examiners than one, do the examiners indicate the complete result, or does the Chancellor summarise the various results ? —He summarises the results. 138. Professor Cook.] Then, if a student passed in one section of his examination and did tolerably well in other subjects, but failed to attain great excellence in ono particular subject, he could not get a scholarship ? —lf he failed to attain excellence in some one particular subject he would not get the scholarship. 139. The Chairman.] He must qualify himself to some extent in every subject ? —He must do so in all the subjects in the examination, and he must have great credit or be excellent in one. 140. A total failure in any one subject would prohibit his getting a scholarship ?—Yes. 141. Professor Shand.] Supposing the examiners reported that more candidates had qualified than there were scholarships to allot, how would the Chancellor proceed to determine who were to get the scholarships ? —He would have to refer back to the examiners. 142. Then would the examiners meet as a Board to decide who were to get the scholarships ?—I have not thought of such a case, but I think if it were to occur I should refer the matter to the examiner and ask him to say which candidate was the highest. A case has never arisen, however, and I have not considered how I should proceed. Very possibly it might be desirable to consult the Senate. 143. In view of the fact that practically a candidate in English may compete with a candidate in Latin, have any precautions been taken to insure that the papers set will be of similar difficulty in the different subjects ? —No ; none excepting the wording of the regulations. 144. Professor Sale.] When you say " great credit," is that always understood to mean great credit in the B.A. examination?— Yes, I think so. 145. And not in the extra questions set for the special purpose of the scholarship ? —No. In the extra papers tho candidate must satisfy the examiner of his proficiency. 146. But he must obtain great credit in the ordinary B.A. examination paper ?—Yes. 147. The Chairman.] Is the rule regarding the awarding of senior scholarships followed in consequence of any resolution of the Senate ? —lt is the interpretation of the regulation. The regulation says that in order to be entitled to a scholarship the scholar shall pass with great credit one of

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the sections of the B.A. degree examination; and then there is a further provision that iv the extra papers he shall exhibit a degree of proficiency satisfactory to the examiners. The rule is laid down in the regulations. 148. Can you explain the reason which guided the Senate in selecting Greek and science as special subjects of examination for third-year scholarships ? —No : I can merely conjecture. 149. Eeferring to the regulation respecting third-year scholarships, Calendar, page 50, Eegulation VIII., which provides that these scholarships shall be awarded to those students "who shall have obtained tho highest number of marks . . .at the examination for the B.A. degree," will you state whether it was the intention of the Senate that third-year scholarships should be awarded for marks obtained in the degree examination only, without additional papers or additional questions . —I think without additional questions. 150. Professor Drown.] Was the third-year scholarship intended to encourage candidates to go on for honours ? —Tes. 151. And the scholarships were to be decided on the pass papers ?—Tes. 152. The Chairman.] Can a third-year scholarship be held concurrently with a senior scholarship ? ■ —I should say that they cannot be held concurrently. The rule is that the senior scholarship can only be held for one year. It may bo carried on in the case of honours, but the rule is that it should only be held for one year, namely, until the third year; and then begins the third-year scholarship. So I presume it is the intention not to allow the senior scholarship to go on for the fourth year. 153. Are any conditions required to be observed by holders of senior or third-year scholarships during the fourth year of their University course ?—Clause 10 of the regulations imposes conditions ; but practically there are no conditions. 154. Professor Cook.] In tho case of a candidate for honours 1 think a seuior scholarship may be held during the fourth year ?—Tes. 155. And did I understand you to say that the third-year scholarship could not be held also during that fourth year ? —I should think that the Senate would not allow it to be held concurrently. There is nothing in the regulations to prevent it. 15G. The Chairman.] Was any intimation given to the examiners for senior scholarships at the last examination that it was desirable that the examination should be of a less difficult character than it had been in former years ? —No. 157. Professor Shand.] I observe that in the last examination the papers on mathematics are confined to the limits prescribed for the B.A. degree, whereas in former examinations they always extended beyond the limits prescribed for the degree. Can you account for this circumstance ? —No. 158. The Chairman.] " The University Act, 1874," empowered the University to grant degrees in science: by the Amendment Act, 1875, that power was withdrawn. Can you state the reasons for the alteration ? —The Act of 1875 brought the law into conformity with the charter of the University, which did not recognize degrees in science. 159. In the charter of the University degrees in science aro omitted from the list of those which are to receive recognition. Is it desirable that the New Zealand University should combine with the Australian Universities in seeking to obtain the recognition of degrees in science ? —Tes, I think so. IGO. In the negotiations which took place with the New Zealand University prior to the affiliation of Canterbury College and the University of Otago, did the Senate undertake that tbe standard of acquirements required for the B.A. degree should be not lower than the Melbourne standard for the same degree ?—Tes. [See also Question 284.] 161. Did the Senate, in pursuance of the undertaking referred to in my last question, draw up and print in the Calendar for 1875 certain " Recommendations and Announcements " which had the effect of regulating the B.A. degree examination ? —Tes. Not in consequence of that agreement, because we did not know exactly what it was: but the Senate did draw up certain announcements as carrying out the agreement, whatever it might be. IG2. Has the Senate, in framing or altering regulations or " announcements " respecting examinations for degrees, been assisted by the advice of professional persons? —Tes—of those engaged in teaching. 163. Professor Shand.] "Was this the case in regard to the regulations for the M.A. degree and also for the degrees in law ? —No. 164. Was care taken in framing these regulations that they should fit into the general scheme of the University of New Zealand, or were they simply transferred from the calendar of another University?— There was great discussion upon them. 165. (Handing the witness a copy of the Melbourne University Calendar.) As a matter of fact I wish to know whether these regulations, that were drawn up without professional assistance, were framed so as to fit carefully into the scheme of the University, or whether they were simply transferred from another calendar ? —lt would appear from a cursory view of this calendar that they were transferred; but I was not aware of it. 166. The Chairman.] Are not all the present examiners for degrees connected with the Melbourne University ? —Tes. 167. Was any intimation given to them that the Senate desired the Melbourne standard of acquirements to be maintained in the degree examination ? —No ; there was no standard given. 168. Will you state what steps were formerly taken with the view of obtaining the assistance of the London University in providing examiners, and with what result ? —I wrote to the Eegistrar of the London University, who replied to the effect that they did not undertake to appoint examiners. 169. Has the Senate abandoned the iutention of obtaining the services of examiners in England ? —I think not. 170. Dr. Hector.] When the Council of the London University said they could not undertake to appoint examiners, did they not also state that, at the same time, they would be happy to place examiners at the disposal of the University if it would involve no official responsibility on the part of the London University ?—Not exactly that. They said that it might be done indirectly—that we might obtain examiners privately, in fact.

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171. In other words, that the University examiners might be available, although not under the official authority of the University ? —Tes. 172. The Chairman.] Is there, in your opinion, any insuperable difficulty in the way of obtaining the services of examiners in England ? —-The great difficulty is the delay in receiving the results of the examinations. 173. In the announcements respecting examinations in natural science, printed on page 68 of the Calendar, it is stated that candidates " will be required to show a practical acquaintance, by means of specimens, with the subject." What arrangements are made with the view of securing compliance with this rule ? —-There have been none ; it was found to be impracticable. 174. Professor Cook.] Has any attempt been made to carry out the latter part of the clause— " and a candidate in any one of the three latter subjects must possess a competent knowledge of the general principles of biology " ? —I am not aware that there has. The practice has been that the attention of the examiner has been drawn to the announcement, and the examination has then been left to him. 175. Dr. Hector.] Has a case arisen yet—has any one taken up natural science in the' B.A. examination ? —Tes. 176. Do you see any practical difficulty in giving effect to the condition referred to ?—No, except with regard to the specimens. 177. Are you aware that it is constantly done in connection with the Cambridge local examinations, which are held all over the world —that the examination papers emanating from one centre require also examination by means of specimens, and that it is always done without any difficulty ? —I was not aware of that. 178. The Chairman.] Do examiners for degrees report to the Chancellor independently, or as a Board ? —lndependently. 179. Are candidates required to pass in every paper, and in every subject ? —They must pass in all the subjects, compulsory and voluntary : not in every paper, because there are generally three papers in each subject, and there are four iv mathematics ; but the examiners in that subject are requested to say whether they think the candidate ought to pass on the whole. 180. Professor Sale.] Then your answer would be that he must pass in every subject, but not necessarily in every paper ? —Tes. 181. The Chairman.] Can you state what percentage of marks has been required by examiners for degrees as the minimum for passing the examination ? —No. 182. "Will you state what course has been followed by the Senate in prescribing text-books and selected portions of authors, periods of history, &c. ? —The Senate has appointed committees, consisting of its own members, who have sat during the recess and considered those things. 183. Dr. Hector.] Have there never been conferences, directed by the Senate, with persons engaged in practical tuition, for the purpose of selecting text-books ? —I think not. 184. The Chairman.] What precautions are taken to insure that the amount of work so prescribed shall be kept within nearly equal limits from year to year, and that the books selected shall be procurable by students ? —I do not think any precautions have been taken. "With regard to the last part of the question, in order to obviate any difficulty as to books, the subjects of examination are determined two or three years beforehand, in order that the students may be able to get the books. 185. Professor Drown.] Have any books been prescribed of which there are no available editions ? —I could not say. 186. The Chairman.] As the Senate has not, in the Calendar, defined the scope of the M.A. degree examination, will you state what definition was given for the guidance of the examiners at the last examination, and how that definition was arrived at? —The only way in which that was determined was under the regulation. 187. Professor Cook.] I presume you refer to the regulation in page 65 as follows : " The subjects of examination for the degree of M.A. shall be divided into four schools : 1. Language and Logic ; 2. Mathematics and Physics; 3. Natural Science; 4. History and Political Economy—in any one of which candidates may pass." That does not give a definition of the scope of the examination?—lt is only a general scope ; but then the candidates propose books to take up, and the examiner may or may not examine them in them. 188. Professor Shand.] Does that mean that the candidate himself defines the scope of his own examination ?—He finds the book, and indicates the line of study he has been pursuing and wishes to be examined in ; but his examination is not confined to that book. I should say that, if the candidate sent, for instance, history and political economy, the examiner might put any questions he liked. 189. So that, practically, the examination is left to the discretion of the examiner ?—Tes. 190. The Chairman.] Can you state whether it was purposely or by oversight that the Senate, in drawing up regulations for examinations in law, made no provision for holding honour examinations ?— I do not know. 191. Professor Cook.] Does the Senate regard the LL.B. degree as a pass degree on all fours with the B.A. degree, or is it looked upon as an honour degree and as something superior ? —I should think it superior, because the course of study is more severe. 192. I suppose it was the intention of the Senate, then, in drawing the regulation at the foot of page 55 of the Calendar, that a candidate for the degree of Bachelor of Laws should, at the end of his first year, pass in a series of subjects which would entitle him to get the B.A. degree, although he would be allowed three years, if he were an Art student, to pass the same examination ? "Was it really intended by the University that there should be such a tremendous examination for the degree of LL.B. at the end of the candidate's first year, or was it an oversight ?—I think they meant it. The succeeding examinations —that at the end of the second year, for instance—seem hardly to square with the first examination. As I understand, the first requirement is that the candidate should give evidence of having received a liberal education, and the other is as regards the special faculty. 193. "Were these regulations drawn up on the model of the Melbourne regulations ?—I think 2—H. 1.

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not; it is merely a matter of opinion. There is a great deal taken out of the Melbourne regulations. 194. Were they used ? —I do not know. 195. Professor DrownJ] By passing the B.A. degree is the candidate for the degree of Bachelor of Laws exempt from passing the first two examinations ? —I do not think so. 196. The Chairman.] Is it usual for the Senate to appoint a committee for the purpose of compiling and arranging the University Calendar ? If not, to wliom is this task intrusted ? —The task is intrusted to the officers of tho University —myself and the Eegistrar. 197. Have you come to any conclusion as to the general effects produced by the University on education? If so, will you state your conclusions, and the main grounds on which they are based ?— I believe the general effect has been beneficial, and my reason for thinking so is that in the schools in the colony, so far as I am aware, the range of subjects has been increased, and the teaching has been improved. 198. Has the income of the University been sufficient hitherto to enable it to discharge properly the duties which it has undertaken ? —Yes, I think so. 199. At what rate are examiners remunerated ?—For each paper set they receive a fee of £5, and for each candidate's paper of answers, above the number of 20, an extra fee of ss. 200. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is that a lower scale than was in force in former years ? —No, I think not. 201. The Chairman.] Do you think that scale of remuneration sufficient to enable the University to secure the services of suitable examiners ? —Tes. I may perhaps mention that there was some discussion about the remuneration. Some of the recipients thought it too high;, they returned some of the money; and there was an idea of reducing the scale in consequence. The only thing is that in some subjects the amount comes out rather lower than in others. If you have a uniform rate there is a difficulty in adjusting the payments. 202. Professor Shand.] But the same payments are made to the examiners for drawing pass papers as for drawing honour papers ? —Tes.

Mr. Tancred.

Feb. 3,1879.

Wellington, Tuesday, 4tii February, 1879. Present : Mr. G-. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Dr. Hector, Professor Cook, Dr. Macdonald, Mr. Cutten, Professor Sale, Hon. W. Gisborne, Professor Shand, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Tllrich. Mr. H. J. Tancred was further examined. 203. The Chairman.] Are the present examiners appointed by the University of Melbourne ? or are they appointed by you on the recommendation of that University, or on the recommendation of the officers of the University acting in their official capacity ? —They were appointed by me on the recommendation of the Vice-Chancellor of the Melbourne University, the Chancellor being absent at the time. 204. Dr. Hector.] Is the Melbourne University responsible for the examinations, directly or indirectly ? —No. 205. The Chairman.] Can you give the Commission any information respecting the present position of the reserves set aside for the New Zealand University ? —No, except as regards those which are mentioned in the Minutes. There has been a large amount of correspondence with the Government, and they have been requested to define the reserves, which were riot defined when they were made ; and I have no official knowledge of tho state of these reserves. I may mention, perhaps, with regard to one reserve—that at Patea—that I have lately been in correspondence with the Government concerning it. Hearing that the surveyors were laying out lands in that direction, I requested the Government to define the reserve on the Whenuakura Eiver, but I received an answer saying that they would take my letter into consideration. 20G. Will you give your views regarding the establishment of a medical school or medical schools in New Zealand ? —I may say, in reference to that, that I have lately obtained several documents on medical education ; and as I did not feel competent, not being a medical man, to give an authoritative opinion on the subject, I requested the Medical School at Christchurch to favour me with their views upon the bearing of the legislation in England. 207. Dr. Hector.] Tou have received documents from England in consequence of the action of the Senate, and you are having them examined and reported upon ? —Tes. 208. The Chairman.] What relation should such school or schools hold to the University ? —My opinion is that all professions are outside tbe ordinary University course. The University course, to my mind, leads up to them. They are faculties in the University ; and it would be very desirable, I think, to have a central school for these faculties, which could be taken advantage of by those who had previously obtained a liberal education—faculties of law, medicine, and other professions. It would be very desirable, I think, to have a thoroughly good school for them, but only open to students who had obtained a liberal education. 209. Professor Shand.] Should these faculties be established within the University or without ? —I think they ought to belong to the University, but not be part of the ordinary course. 210. Professor Cook.] Such a course of general education would in fact be a faculty of arts ? —Tes; I call it a liberal education. 211. The Chairman.] To what extent ought the University to undertake, or to be intrusted with,

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the entrance examinations to tne legal professions?—l think the legal profession ought to be connected with tho University, and that the students ought to be ordinary students of the University. 212. Professor Cook.] Do you mean that they should be made to graduate in arts?— Perhaps not necessarily to graduate in arts, but they ought to prepare there. 213. Professor Shand.] But you think they should pass a certain University examination before entering the profession ? —Tes. 214. Professor Cook.] A certain University education in subjects of a liberal education —arts ? —Tes. 215. Professor Shand.] And also in law ?—I think tho University examinations ought to be the basis of an admission to the practice of the law. 21G. Dr. Hector.] Do you allude to the granting of a law degree, or to the granting of a right to practise law ? —I think both. 217. Then you would make the University the only gate into the legal profession ? —Tes ; there would then be a uniform standard of acquirements for the profession. 218. The Chairman.] But would it not be very hard to make it compulsory on every young man who went into a lawyer's office to go through the University ? —No, I think not. The University might carry on examinations and not give degrees. Instead of the present system under which each Judge in his own district, with a different standard, admits to practice, the University would have a uniform standard. 219. But has the University got a legal staff capable of conducting the examinations which are now held by the Judges ? —They would have if they gave legal degrees. 220. I speak only of admission to the Bar, not of giving degrees of LL.D. ?—What I mean is that in order to prepare students for degrees the University would a fortiori have persons competent to examine candidates for practice in the law —persons who would have a legal knowledge. 221. Do I understand you to mean that lawyers going in for degrees, such as LL.B. and LL.D., should get their B.A. previously, or that all lawyers should bo subject to the same course? —I do not mean the latter. I mean that those who now present themselves to the Judges should present themselves for examination to the University. 222. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I understand you to propose that the University should undertake the task of examining those who are not its own undergraduate members, for tho purposes of a law examination ? —Tes. 223. Dr. Hector.] That is to say, that the administration of the Law Practitioners Act should be handed over to tho University ? —Tes. 224. Is such a practice adopted in any other country ?—I cannot say. 225. Professor Cook.] Do you know that in Victoria, before a man can be admitted to the Bar, unless he has been previously admitted in England, ho must have gained the degree of Bachelor of Laws at the University of Melbourne ?—That is rather a wider question. What I referred to would merely be carrying out the present law of New Zealand, only in a different way, by substituting a different kind of examination. 220. The Chairman.] What, in your opinion, ought to be the relation between normal schools, schools of practical science, of mines, of engineering, of agriculture, &c, and the University ? —My idea is that the first work of tho University—l mean the first in time —is to give a liberal education, and then I think it would be very desirable to establish schools such as those indicated. But Ido not think the University could undertake the normal-school teaching, because there is the practising department as well as the training department, and the University could not undertake the former. 227. Professor Drown.] Could there not be a chair of pedagogy similar to what has recently been established in the Scotch Universities ?—I should think it would be better to have that in the normal schools ; it would be more convenient. Ido not think the University could undertake that. 228. Dr. Hector.] Do I understand you to mean that the teaching iv these schools of mines, and the other schools referred to, should be under the superintendence of the University, and simply confined to University graduates, and not extended to persons who were not connected with the University by matriculation ? —No. 220. The Chairman.] To what extent is it, in your opinion, desirable and practicable to establish such schools at the preseut time ? —There are some schools now in existence. We have got a School of Agriculture in Canterbury, and a School of Mines is about to be established in Otago. I think these institutions might be established. 230. In what parts of the colony do you consider that such institutions can most advantageously be placed, having regard to the requirements of different districts, and to the means of instruction already existing?—l think they ought as much as possible to be centralized; I cannot say in what part of the colony. 231. What relations ought, in your opinion, to exist between schools for secondary education and the University ? —I should prefer to answer that question at a later stage of the inquiry. [See Questiou 283.] 232. Hon, W. Gisborne.] Do I understand you to recommend that the University should give degrees in engineering and mining ? —I think it would be very desirable that it should give some sort of certificate. Whether it should be a degree or not I cannot say. 233. The Chairman.] Do the present circumstances of this colony, in your opinion, require that other relations should subsist between the institutions for secondary and for superior instruction than those which exist in other countries ? —Tes, I think so. The colonization of New Zealand has been carried on in a very peculiar way —from different centres, which has not been the case in other colonies; and it is not a populous country like England. 234. I observe that the 25th clause of the University Act gives power to grant certificates of proficiency. Has this clause been acted on in any way ?—No. 235. Are you acquainted with the systems of education provided by the Universities of Sydney, Melbourne, and Adelaide? —Only imperfectly.

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236. Are you in a position to say whether the class of education provided by the Australian Universities is inferior or superior to that provided by the New Zealand University ? —I could not say. 237. Tou stated in your evidence that the existing law prohibits the New Zealand University from becoming a teaching body ? —Yes. 238. Did the original Act of 1870 contain that restriction ? —No. 239. "Was the alteration in the law made at the instance of the New Zealand University ? —lt was by agreement with the Otago and Canterbury institutions that that alteration was made. 240. AVas the agreement to this effect: that the Otago University should continue a teaching body, while the New Zealand University should be reduced to being merely an examining body ? —Yes. 241. Had amalgamation with the Otago University taken place, do you think the New Zealand University would have continued a non-teaching body ? —No, I think not. 242. Have you, in your capacity of Chancellor, considered the question of establishing private ladies' colleges giving the same standard of education as is given in the Universities ? —No. 243. What I wish to know is, whether you would be in favour of having established in this colony ladies' colleges, such as the Girton College, near Cambridge, and tho Queeu's College, London, where the professors of the University lecture and examine, and submit the same papers to the ladies as are being submitted to the students in the Colleges at Cambridge ? —I have not considered that question. 244. Bey. W. J. Habens.] As far as your knowledge goes, is there reason to be satisfied with the arrangement by which ladies are admitted to lectures along with other students, and also to degrees ? — I think it is satisfactory. 245. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Was not the University, in 1573, deprived by law of all landed endowments as well as of its power of teaching ? —No, I think not. Tho University, I think, never had the legal control of the endowments. 24G. In 1874 the University was deprived of its teaching power: all the lands vested in it, or purporting to be vested in it, by law were taken away, and dealt with in the following manner : Lands which were vested iv it in the Province of Otago were vested in the University of Otago absolutely; all the other lands in the different provinces were reserved for the purposes of higher education within those provinces in such manner as the General Assembly might from time to time determine ? —-Tes. As I understand, the original endowment was under the Endowment Act of 18G8, and the AttorneyGeneral gave it as his opinion that tho University had no power to deal with the lands under that Act. 247. Professor Shand.] Were there any reserves in the Province of Otago vested in the University of New Zealand? —No, never vested. There were 10,000 acres in -Southland set apart for the University. 248. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Was it not the case that in 1874 the University of New Zealand was sent out into New Zealand without the power of teaching, without landed endowments, with only £3,000 a year as an endowment from the Treasury, and with the power of examining and conferring degrees ? Was not that the position of the University ? —That was the position then. 249. All the means out of which it could give scholarships was the endowment of £3,000 ? —Tes. 250. That was all its sustenance ? —Tes. 251. And all its power was to examine, and confer degrees ?—Tes. 252. And it was required to give scholarships and other rewards ? —Tes. 253. Has not that crippled the proceedings of the University in a great measure since 1874 ? — Considering that the functions are merely examining functions, I do not think it has. 254. I did not mean crippling it as far as the limited functions that were given to it arc concerned ; but as a University —as what you generally understand by a University —was it not put into a crippled condition ? —Tes, I think it was. 255. Are you of opinion that it would be desirable to have an exhibition which should be used in the English Universities by scholars in New Zealand ? —No; I have always opposed that. I gave evidence on that subject before a Commission which sat in 1807, aud whose report appears among the Parliamentary Papers. 256. What is your opinion of a plan which would enable scholars, by means of scholarships and exhibitions, to rise from primary schools up to tho highest degree of education that can be conferred in New Zealand ? Do you sec any objection to that ? —No ; I have always favoured that plan. 257. To have an ascending scale so as to give an opportunity to a boy in any primary school to rise up ?—Tes. 258. Dr. Hector.] Up to the present time have all parts of the colony enjoyed an equal share of the advantages of the University of New Zealand ? —Tes, I think so. 259. Are any portions of the colony in a better position to take advantage of the University system as it is at present than others ? —I think so. 260. Owing to what reason?— Owing to the institutions that are established there. 261. Had ".The University Endowment Act, 1865," been given full effect to, would that irregularity have existed to the same extent?—l think not. Those which are most deficient now—for instance, Taranaki and other places—would have had very rich endowments. 262. Did all parts of the colony take action under "The University Endowment Act, 1868"? Did they respond to the invitation of tho Assembly to set aside reserves for a New Zealand University ? —No, 1 think not. 263. Do you remember the exceptions ? —Canterbury was one. Ido not remember any other. 264. Did Otago set aside any reserves ? —Not under the Endowment Act. 265. The endowment that was made in Southland was made at a time when Southland was a separate division of the colony from Otago, was it not ?-.—l forget the date ; but the reserve was made before the union with Otago, which took place in 1872. 266. Professor Cook.] Tou said that Canterbury declined to set aside any land under the Act of ISGS?—No, not declined ; I think neglected. 267. Are there not 1.500 acres mentioned in the Calendar ?—Tes; but they are not defined. There has been no grant.

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268. Then practically there has been no land set aside ?—No. 269. And the endowments made in Canterbury and Otago for University purposes were not made in pursuance of the Act of ISCS, and had no connection with it ?—No ; except the Southland land. 270. I think that in your evidence yesterday you said that several institutions affiliated to the University received £300 a year from the University with the view of enabling them to give suitable University instruction ?—As a contribution towards enabling them to do so. The £300 a year would not provide all, but would supply what was wanted —what was insufficient. It was a contribution in aid, in fact. 271. That contribution in aid has been withdrawn, I believe ? —Tes. 272. Do you imagine that its withdrawal will affect the efficiency of the schools as University institutions ?—I think the £300 a year wa. useful in nursing them up to their present condition. Ido not think the withdrawal will impair their efficiency now that they have grown from what they were. 273. The Chairman.] _ Tou are aware that a sum of £220,000, or thereabouts, is granted for elementary education iv this colony, and that a sum of £3,000 is granted for University education: do you think that is a fair apportionment of tho public funds iv consideration of the benefits conferred respectively by primary education and University education ?—I suppose that if a certain sum of money is sufficient for a particular purpose there is no claim for an additional sum, however small the proportion may be compared with the sum devoted to another object. 27-I'. I said " compared to the benefits conferred by each system respectively" ? —I do not see how the University could expend on its own purposes more than it gets. 275. That is, if it exercises its proper functions ? —Tes. 276. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you find apathy aud irregularity in the attendance of members of the Senate of the New Zealand University at its annual meetings ? —I should say there was apathy and irregularity. 277. How has the power of voting by proxy worked ? Do you think it advantageous to the interests of the University ? —I think it is advantageous. 278. Does it not lead to tho absence of members ? —I do not think so. 279. Professor Cook.] At the present time, is a proxy given by a member a general proxy to be used on all questions that arise at the meeting of tho Senate, or is it given to be exercised on a specific question ? —There are general proxies and specific proxies. 280. Hon. W. Gisborne.] The only restriction is that a proxy does not last from one session to another —a restriction which has been recently made ? —Tes. 281. The Chairman.] Do you think that the University, as it now exists, has assumed the form best suited to the circumstances of the colony?—My answer is in tho affirmative, meaning that further development should be development of the system now in operation, the principle upon which that system is based being understood to be that the facilities for higher education should be distributed among as many centres as possible. 282. Will you furnish the reasons for your opinion ? —My reasons for holding this opinion may shortly be summed up by saying that it is desirable to bring the benefits of higher culture within the reach of tho great mass of the population. I think that the sons of less wealthy parents ought to receive the first consideration, and that the learning as well as the distinctions and emoluments of the University should be so regulated as to be within the reach of any students, poor no less than rich students, who may show an aptitude for study, or who may be ambitious of distinction in literary pursuits. It is quite obvious that, if the University teaching is confined to one place, no student living at a distance, and not possessed of considerable private means, would be able to avail himself of that teaching. The expenses of travelling to and from the University, and the cost of living while in attendance, would absolutely debar a student, placed in such circumstances, from attempting to follow the University course. I think, moreover, that, in considering a scheme of higher education for this colony, it is of the utmost importance that the way in which the country has been colonized should be taken into consideration. The colonization has proceeded from several different points, and, consequently, several different centres of population have been formed, all of them equally entitled to share in the benefits of University education to which all contribute. But, if all have a claim upon the funds on the score of justice, it appears to me that they have equally a claim on the score of expediency, and that, if that claim is not satisfied, not only will a great injustice bo committed, but also a great evil will arise. The whole of the higher learning in the colony would be gathered into one focus, while the other parts would be compelled to content themselves with a lower —almost elementary—course of instruction. I am, of course, putting on one side all consideration of the requirements of the wealthier classes: these can very well be left to take care of themselves. It might, no doubt, suit these best to take advantage of a central institution furnished with every appliance and equipped with a large number of professorial chairs. In their case tho want of means would not make itself felt. It is very doubtful, however, how- far the rich would avail themselves at all of a distant colonial institution, however well equipped. It is more than probable that, if they sent their sons from home for the purposes of a University education, they would send them to a University in the Old Country. It is tho more necessary to insist upon the expediency of considering tho poorer class of students, because the traditions of the Old Country, which have a tendency, more or less, to bias our minds, are directly opposed to any such consideration. It seems to be assumed in the older countries of Europe that the benefits of higher eduiatiou are the exclusive privilege of the rich, and that those who cannot afford a very considerable outlay iv the education of their children are not entitled to these advantages. This may possibly be a reasonable view in such a country as England, where the people are, as a general rule, not taxed for the maintenance of the Universities, or for that of institutions established for the promotion of higher education. I need not, however, enter further into this question, and I merely refer to it for the purpose of suggesting that a system which, in England, may be just and reasonable, might, in New Zealand, be in the highest degree unjust and unreasonable. Ido not say that the system now in operation actually accomplishes all that it ought to accomplish ; but that its failing to do so is to bo attributed not so much to tho system itself as to the imperfect development

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which that system has as yet received. I can, however, say with some confidence that the action of the University has done much to stimulate and encourage higher studies in all parts of the colony. In order properly to develop the system, I should wish to see those large endowments, which have been set aside for University purposes, utilized in establishing or fostering institutions at different centres. I believe that, if properly managed, these endowments might be made the means of placing the affiliated institutions now in existence (or at least the required number of them) on a proper footing, besides establishing others at other places, capable of preparing students for a degree in the University : for instance, at Taranaki, Hawke's Bay, Marlborough, Southland. If this were done, the means of pursuing liberal studies would be fairly distributed over the whole colony, and the great mass of the population —poor as well as rich—would have opportunities of gaining those distinctions and those rewards which, in the nature of things, can only fall to the lot of those who have had the advantage of a liberal education ; and, still more important than this, the tone of the whole would bo raised. It may be that the teaching power in these institutions would not be so complete as it would be if all the resources of the colony were concentrated upon one particular point. A central institution would undoubtedly present a greater variety in the subjects of instruction, thus allowing to the students a wider choice ; but it would not necessarily insure more effective teaching in particular subjects. The plan which I here advocate, and which the University of New Zealand has adopted, is not an untried plan. I believe that it is almost identical in its leading principles with the University system which has long been in operation in France. In that country the whole of the higher education is under the control of the University of France ; but the actual teaching and preparation for degrees is carried on by subordinate institutions scattered about in different parts of the country. These institutions are I believe called " academies." It is only in a very few of these academies that the whole curriculum of study recognized by the University is gone through. The greater number teach only portions of it. I think the College or Academy of Paris has nearly two hundred professors, each teaching a different branch of different subjects, while others have as few as ten or eleven professors; but all are recognized as institutions capable of preparing for degrees. I believe that some change has taken place in late years in the organization of the University of France, but in what direction that change has been made I cannot say —I am not sure, indeed, that I have accurately represented the exact nature of the University organization as it existed before that change took place. I have rather referred to the subject as one the study of which might furnish suggestions worthy the consideration of the Commission. "Whatever the exact nature of that system may be, I think that any one who has mixed much with the different classes of French people will agree with me in thinking that intelligence, mental culture, and general information are more widely and more evenly diffused in France than in any other country, and this, I take it, is what any system of higher education ought to aim at in this colony. I would, therefore, with this object, encourage as large a part of the population as possible to engage in liberal studies, without making it an indispensable condition that students should complete or even begin the University course : at the same time I would insist upon the highest attainable standard of excellence before any student should be entitled to claim from the University a testamur of excellence in the shape of a degree. It has been suggested that the injustice which the restriction of the University to one place would inflict upon students living at a distance might be remedied by the establishment of scholarships of sufficient value to cover all the expenses of travelling and maintenance. These expenses would, I presume, be considered as the measure of the value of the scholarships. I think it will be seen, from what I have already said, that such a plan would in no way accomplish the object which, as I think, the University ought to have in view. It would not bring University teaching within the reach of all. It would not benefit the population as a whole. It would only make that teaching a monopoly for a few clever young men. As lam opposed to any plan which would make the privilege of pursuing liberal studies the monopoly of an aristocracy of wealth, so I am equally opposed to one which would make it the monopoly of an aristocracy of talent. It is the general standard of education that I should wish to see raised. Besides this, there is an objection to the proposal on the ground of expense. I suppose that, on an average, the outlay incurred by scholars coming from a distance would be not much, if at all, less than £100 per annum. So that, supposing only 100 such scholars to attend the central University from other parts, an expenditure of £10,000 per annum would be required to put them on a par with those residing on the spot. I suppose, however, that the number would not be limited, but that as many as possessed sufficient proficiency would be entitled to the benefit of University training. If I am correct in this assumption, then the expense would be indefinite, and might largely exceed all reasonable bounds. If lam not correct, then University training would be denied to all of average capacity, and thus young men of good ability, though not of very distinguished excellence, who might be desirous of following a liberal course of stud}', would be prevented from deriving any benefit from the University. It is to my mind quite clear that the interests of the State lie in an exactly opposite direction to this. It is the interest of the State that the whole community should be elevated, not that a few exceptionally clever individuals should attain distinction. It is too much the custom to assume that the sole end and object of a University is to pick out the cleverest students on whom it can confer degrees and bestow other rewards and honours, leaving the rest of the community to grope in the dark. In my opinion, the conferring of degrees and other distinctions is not at an end in itself, but merely a means to an end, that end being the diffusion of learning and culture over as wide an area as possible, and the establishment of University education upon a really national basis. 283. "What relations ought, in your opinion, to exist between schools for secondary education and the University ? —I do not think that the University should have any relations with secondary schools as such. There are, however, secondary schools which, besides undertaking the ordinary course of a high school, undertake also to prepare students for their degree. The University should, I think, in these cases, only so far interfere with these secondary schools as might be necessary for the purpose of directing the studies of its own students. 28-1. In the negotiations which took place with the Xew Zealand University, prior to the affiliation of Canterbury College and the University of Otago, did the Senate undertake that the standard of acquirements required for the B.A. degree should be not lower than the Melbourne standard for the

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same degree ? —This was already answered [See Question 160] in the affirmative (after time being given for reference to the records), and I may add that, in order the more surely to give effect to this undertaking, in accordance with the intentions of those who required it, the Senate, in deciding upon the subjects of examination, was assisted by professors from the institutions concerned. Practically, I may say that all the suggestions made by the representatives of these institutions were adopted, and that any modifications which may have been made in the original proposals were concurred in by them. 285. Is there any other point on which you desire to give evidence or to offer suggestions ? —I should wish to suggest that a very desirable improvement might be eifected by tho appointment of a body of distinguished gentlemen to act as examiners for the University, whose duty it should be not only to conduct all University examinations, but also to visit and report upon the efficiency of the different institutions affiliated to or recognized by the University as capable of preparing for degrees. I think it very necessary that an independent body of examiners, unconnected with any local institution, should conduct these examinations. It is quite obvious that this is the only way in which the attainments of all would be equally tested ; for it is clear that a student who had been instructed by a teacher in any particular institution would, in the case of that teacher being appointed University examiner, have a great advantage over another student of equal or possibly higher attainments, who had been under the guidance of some other teacher. But the appointment of such a body of examiners would be desirable for other reasons, which apply even supposing the whole teaching of the University to be carried on at one place. They would supply an outside and independent test of the efficiency of the teaching at that place. At present this can be judged only indirectly from the results of the examinations of those who choose to compete. The adoption of the plan as suggested would bring all under review. At present, with the exception of the partial and indirect information supplied by the results of examinations, we have nothing by which we can judge of the general efficiency of an institution, but the opinion of the teachers themselves: I need not say that that opinion may be unconsciously a biassed one. I should think that examiners of very high attainments in their several departments might be obtained if the remuneration were sufficient. In such a matter as this I should be inclined to make the remuneration very liberal. I think that in instituting a scheme of University education a distinction ought to be observed between the two courses of study which I may distinguish from each other by calling them " liberal " and" special or professional," respectively. By "liberal" education I mean an education which gives to the student, generally, a cultivated taste, which trains him in habits of accurate thought, which develops his reasoning powers, and which thus incidentally gives him a capacity for applying his mind to any special or professional study. It is, however, to the interest of the State that a liberal education should be given to as large a portion of the community as possible, independently of the pecuniary advantages which such an education confers on each individual. It is to the interest more immediately of tho individual concerned that he should acquire skill in his particular calling or profession. That is to say, it is of importance to the State that the tone of the whole community should be elevated and refined; while it is more especially of importance to the individual that his career in life should be successful. Por this reason the view which I take, as to the duty of the State to bring facilities for pursuing liberal studies within the reach of all, does not apply to the case of special or professional studies. Probably a central institution alone, in the present circumstances of the colony, would be capable of giving a complete course of professional study. The various branches of knowledge which are required of a medical practitioner or of a barrister or solicitor could probably only be acquired at some institution at which the services of professors in all these various branches were available. It would, moreover, be quite fair that those who proposed to gain a direct pecuniary advantage from the prosecution of special studies should contribute at all events a fair proportion of the expense of their instruction. Mr. "W. M. Haskell sworn and examined. 286. The Chairman.] Tou are the Eegistrar of the _S*ew Zealand University? —Tes. 287. How long have you held that office P—Since 1876. 288. Will you furnish the following documents and papers : Set of copies of the Minutes and Proceedings of the Council and Senate, with the exception of the Minutes for the October session of 1871. Complete set of Calendars issued by authority of the University. Copies of all examination papers set by authority of the University in the year 1878. Copies of all reports received from examiners for the last two years. Copies of instructions forwarded to the mathematical examiner for the year 1878 (as a specimen copy showing the nature of the instructions usually given to examiners). Copies of the summaries compiled by the Chancellor of the results of the University examinations during the past two years, Eeturn of the number of candidates in each year (1) who have competed for, and (2) who have obtained, junior scholarships, and showing the subsequent career of the latter in the University. Eeturn showing the number in each year of senior or third-year scholars (1) who have notified their intention of studying for honours, and (2) who have obtained honours. Eeturn showing the number in each year of successful and unsuccessful candidates for junior scholarships, senior scholarships, third-year scholarships, degrees, and honours, and the place of previous education of the several candidates ? —Yes. 289. So far as the Eegistrar's Office and the custody of records is concerned, does any practical inconvenience arise from the Senate changing its place of meeting from year to year ? —No practical inconvenience has arisen so far. I imagine that whatever inconvenience there might be would be of a nature that would increase from year to year, as it is necessary to take to the meetings of the Senate every paper that may be supposed to be required, and of course every year the number of papers and documents increases very largely. Up to the present time, however, there has been no practical inconvenience. 290. Is it the case that the composition of the Senate varies largely from year to year in consequence of the changes in its place of meeting ? —Tes, the attendance of members varies a good deal. 291. Professor Cook.] Do you find that wheu the Senate meets, say, at Auckland, there is a pre*

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Mr. MasTcell.

ponderance of Auckland members present ? —The local members attend more largely than those at a distance. 292. The Chairman.] Is the business of the Senate affected by this change in the composition of the Senate ? —I should imagine that it must affect the policy of the Senate a good deal. 293. Have there been frequent alterations in the regulations ?—Tes. 294. Do you think these alterations have been in any considerable degree due to the change in the composition of the Senate ?—I am hardly able to answer that. Ido not know to what cause to attribute the alterations. 295. Do you find that students frequently have difficulties in interpreting the regulations ? —Tes; interpretations are frequently asked for by students. 296. In cases where students apply to you for interpretations of the regulations, how do you deal with their application ? —lf there is any doubt, I refer tho questions to the Chancellor; but not in formal matters. 297. Are your replies to such applications collected and preserved in a convenient form for reference, so as to secure uniformity of interpretation ? —They are all in the usual letter-book, and accessible at any moment. 298. Has it been the case since your appointment as Eegistrar that junior scholarships have been awarded to all candidates who have obtained the minimum number of marks prescribed ? —I cannot speak with regard to the earlier years of the University, but since I have been Eegistrar there has never been a sufficient number of successful candidates to come up to the number of scholarships offered by the University. 299. Professor Shand.] That means that every one who obtained the minimum did get a junior scholarship ? —I think so ; but without reference to the number of marks I cannot speak positively on the point. 300. What is the minimum ?—Eifty per cent. A candidate for a junior scholarship may take two or more subjects, not exceeding four. He must obtain 50 per cent, in at least each of two in order to obtain a scholarship. 301. Eeferring to the list of junior scholars, Calendar, page 109, &c, will you state on what principle the place of previous education in each case is determined and described? —The original list was in existence before I made up the Calendar, but of late years I have inserted the name of the institution, as far as I knew, from which the scholar came —the place where he received his last instruction. 302. Professor Cook.] What means do you take to ascertain that ? —I have the applications of the candidates. They send me their names when they enter for competition ; and after the examination is over, in informing them of the result, I have only the address they have previously given to indicate where lam to write to them. If then lam told that they have changed their place of tuition I take a note of it; but, unless they inform me of any change, I have no means of knowing it. 303. Professor Sale.] Then it is only the address of the candidate which is your guide in these cases ?—Tes. 304. Dr. Macdonald.] Do they make any statement as to where they have been educated, and for what length of time they attended the school ?—No. 305. The Chairman.] Are they not, previous to the competition, furnished with a certificate by the schoolmaster who has educated them?— No. 306. Professor Cook.] If no school is given in the letter of application, then you put down " private tuition " ? —Tes ; if they do not tell me I have nothing to go by.

Feb. 4,1879.

Auckland, Monday, lOrn Eebeuaet, 1879. Present : Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E,, in the chair. Professor Brown, Professor Sale, Professor Cook, Professor Shand, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich. Dr. Hector, Mr. Daniel Austin Tole sworn and examined. 307. The Chairman.] You are the Commissioner of Crown Lands for the Provincial District of Auckland ? —Tes. 308. How long have you held that office ?—Since ISG9. 309. How long have you been connected with the Lands Department of the Province of Auckland ? Over twenty years. 310. There are certain large endowments given partly for educational and partly for religions purposes in the neighbourhood of Auckland. Are you familiar with the lands that have been set apart for those purposes? —Tes. Pirst, there is an endowment called the "St. Stephen's School Endowment," situated in Parnell, in the suburbs of Auckland. It contains 67 acres 2 roods 10 perches, and is comprised in three grants. The first of these grants is dated 23rd September, 1850, and was issued under the hand of Governor Grey; it was made in trust to the Bishop of New Zealand, and the area is 40 acres 11 perches. It is what is termed a "free grant." The terms of the trust were these: "Iv trust for tho use of and towards the support and maintenance of a school at Taurarua, for the education of children of our subjects of both races, and of children of other poor and destitute persons, being inhabitants of the islands in tho Pacific Ocean, so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall bo given to youth educated therein or maintained thereat." The second grant is dated 23rd September, 1850, and was also issued under the hand of Governor Sir George Grey. It was made in trust to the Bishop of New Zealand, and the area of the land is 18 acres. This grant contains a recital with regard to payment. It states that out

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Feb. 10,1879.

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of certain funds given by the Government for the establishment and support of this particular school, St. Stephen's, the Bishop of New Zealand paid for the land £220 Is.; nevertheless, it is stated that the grant is in trust, and the terms of the trust are the same as those in the one previously referred to. 311. The Chairman.] The money was paid?— Yes, £226 Is. was paid; but it was out of funds given ior the establishment and support of that particular school. 312. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Out of funds supplied by the Government for that purpose?— The recital is as follows : " And whereas the Government have given funds for the establishment aud support of the said school, and out of the funds so given the Eight Eeverend Father in God George Augustus, Lord Bishop of New Zealand, hath paid the sum of two hundred and twenty-six pounds one shilling (£226 Is.) for the allotments or parcels of land hereinafter described." The concluding part of the grant then states that it is in trust, and the trust is set forth. 313. The Chairman.] Do I understand that the Government found the money to purchase the land ? —They gave funds for the establishment and support of this school, and then, out of those funds; this particular sum was paid for the land—paid back in fact. Then the third grant, which completes the whole, is for 9 acres 2 roods 5 perches. It is dated the 14th April, 1851, was issued under the hand of Sir George Grey as Governor, and was made in trust to the Bishop of New Zealand. There is a similar recital in this grant with regard to the payment of money under the same arrangement. The sum of £114 13s. 6d. was paid ; and the terms of the trust are maintained in this grant as in the previous ono. 314. The Chairman.] Are the allotments contiguous to each other? —Yes. I have a plan showing their position. (Plan produced.) 315. Professor Cook.] Have there been any country lands granted as endowments to St. Stephen's College ?—No. 316. The Chairman.] I understand you to say that as far as you know no grants have been made for the institution beyond those you have mentioned? —I am not aware of any. 317. There have been none since Sir George Grey's first governorship ? —No. 318. Do you know anything about the state of these lands at present ? —I do not. I have not visited the institution. 319. Are they farmed by the institution, or are they leased to tenants ? —I have no information on that point. 320. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you able to form an estimate of the value of these lands? —I think land there would be worth fully £200 per acre. That amount, I think, might be taken as the average value per acre of the estate. 321. Can you tell us who is the present trustee and in whom the property now vests ? —I do not know. 322. The Chairman.] Could you tell the Commission on which of the allotments the building is erected ? —I do not know, having never visited the place. I understand that the land is exceedingly well adapted for building sites ; but it is rather poor and not suitable for agricultural purposes. 323. Professor Drown.] Are there any buildings on the land ? —I believe the land has been divided into building sites, and a number of buildings erected. 324. Besides the school ? —Yes, independently of the school. I believe there are private dwellings, but I cannot speak from personal knowledge. 325. The Chairman.] With regard to the Three Kings Institution, the Commission would like to know how much land the Wesleyan body has got at the Three Kings for educational purposes ?—This endowment is situated in the suburbs of Auckland, Parish of Waitemata, and contains 824 acres 1 rood 24 perches. 326. In one block ?—ln detached parcels. There are five grants, and they are all made to the Superintendent of the Wesleyan Mission, New Zealand. The terms of the trust are precisely the same as in the grants to the Church of England, the same wording being adopted. The first grant is dated in 1845, and is for 192 acres 3 roods 12 perches ; it is under the hand of Governor Fitzroy. The next grant is dated 31st August, 1850, and is for 20 acres ; it is under the hand of Governor Sir George Grey. The third grant is dated 15th October, 1850; it is signed by Sir George Grey, and is for 527 acres. The fourth grant is dated 19th June, 1852, and is for 19 acres 1 rood 6 perches; it is under the hand of Lieutenant-Governor Wynyard. The fifth grant was made ou the 20th June, 1854, and is for 65 acres 1 rood 6 perches ; it is also under the hand of Governor Wynyard. 327. Are these allotments nil contiguous ? —I can show you their position ou the map. (Map produced.) 328. Were these all free grants ? —Yes. 329. What is your estimate of the value of these lands ?—Lot 14, section 13, being part of the 527 acres, is worth about £3 an acre, and Lot 87 is worth from £15 to £20 per acre. The whole of the property described in the five grants would average about £21 an acre. 330. Professor Sale.] Is the institution described as a school ? —The grant simply says in effect, " Whereas a school has been established at the Three Kings, and to promote the objects of that institu* tion these lands are given." 331. The Chairman.] Can you inform the Commission whether any other reserves have been granted to the Wesleyan body for semi-educational and religious objects ? —Yes; I find noted here that there are three other grants to this body. One is for 6 acres 3 roods, and is situated in the suburbs of Auckland. It is in trust for the general purposes of a Wesleyan Native institution. The reserve is at the top of Grafton Eoad, nearly opposite the residence of the late Captain Beckham. There is a church erected on the land. 332. Professor Cook.] What were the terms of the trust ?—lt was given in trust for the general purposes of a Wesleyan Native institution. Then there is another reserve of 402 acres situated at Aotea, at Eaglau, on the Wett Coast. It is granted in trust as an endowment and site for a Native school. The third reserve consists of 169 acres, and is situated at a place called Waiharakeke. The terms of the trust are the same as in the last case. 3—H. 1.

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Feb. 10, 1879.

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333. The Chairman.] Are these three grants you have last mentioned, including the Grafton Eoad one, for the purposes of a Native school ? —The first one is for the purposes of a general Native institution. 331. What is the date of that grant ? —IS44, and it is issued under the hand of Governor Eitzroy " in trust for the general purposes of the aforesaid Wesleyan Native institution." 335. Professor Shand.] Can you tell me the value of that land ?—I do not know its value. 336. Professor Cook.] Is it town land ? —No; but it is just on the borders of the town, and is worth a considerable sum of money. 337. Professor Sale.] Would it be valuable as building land ? —Very valuable. It is excellently suited for such a purpose. 338. But it is not yet built upon?— Not that I am aware of; except that there is a church upon it. 339. The Chairman.] That is all you know about grants to the Wesleyan body ? —Tes. 310. Professor Sale.] Could you say anything about the value of the other two reserves you spoke of ? —No, I have not been able to determine their position on the plans. 341. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you give us any information as to the persons who now hold these trusts ?—No. 342. The Chairman.] Are there any other educational grants to the Church of England besides the St. Stephen's endowment ? —I find that there have been seven other grants made to that body. The terms of tho trusts are precisely the same. The first grant is for 870 acres, at a place called Otawhao, near To Awamutu, in the Waikato. The words of the grant are, " Whereas schools have been established under the superintendence of the Bishop of New Zealand for the education of children of our subjects of both races, and of children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of the Islands of the Pacific Ocean: and whereas it would promote the objects of the said institutions to set apart certain pieces or parcels of land therefor: . . . Now know ye that we ... do hereby grant ... in trust nevertheless and for tho use and towards the support and maintenance of the said schools so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language be given to youth educated therein and maintained thereat." The only difference in the wording is that the word " schools "is substituted for " the school at Taurarua," which is St. Stephen's. The date of that grant is 1850. 343. Have you any idea as to how that land was acquired by the Government, so that they were enabled to make a grant of it ?—I do not know. 344. Was it a gift from the Natives for the purpose? —There is no explanation about that in tho records. 345. Had the Government, as far as you know, any land in that district in the year 1850 which they could grant, unless there was a gift from the Natives ? —I am not aware that they had, but I cannot say positively. 346. But from your general knowledge, in connection with the Land Office, had the Government any land beyond the Waikato at that date P—My impression is that they had not. I may say, before leaving this reserve, that the land is very good, and is said to be worth about £10 an acre. The second grant is for 280 acres, situated at a place called Kohanga, in the Waikato. That grant was made on the 28th October, 1853, or about that date. The terms of the trust are precisely the same as in the previous grant. 347. Can you tell us the position of this reserve ?—lt is ou the Eiver Waikato, between the Heads and Cameron Town. 348. With regard to this grant, was it a gift from the Natives, or a pure gift from the Govern* ment ?—The grant is from the Crown direct. 319. Had the Crown, as far as you know, any adjoining land to dispose of ?—I am not aware that it had. 350. Have you any idea whether the land at Kohanga is occupied or lying waste ?—No. I estU mate the full value of this land at from £2 to £3 per acre. The third grant is for 133 acres at Taupiri. The terms of the trust are the same as in the last grant. The value of the land is said to be about £4 an acre. The fourth grant is for 470 acres somewhere above Kohanga, on tho Waikato. The land is said to be fair, open land, worth from £2 to £3 an acre ; and the terms of the trust are the same. It is on the south bank of the river. The grant is dated 1853. The Taupiri grant is also dated in 1853. Then there is a grant of 1.355 acres at a place called Pcpepe South. Ido not know the value of this land, as I could not determine its exact position on the map. The deed was dated in 1853, and the terms of the trust are the same as in the other cases. There is another grant, but the terms of the trust are slightly different. The area is 175 acres 38 perches, and the land is situated at Otawhao, on the Waikato. The terms of the trust are, "to bo used by the Church Missionary Society as a site for a missionary station, place of worship, or for schools." The date of the grant is 1850, and it is under the hand of Sir George Grey. I think the land is worth about £10 an acre. 351. Professor Sale.] Has it been used as a mission station? Has any missionary building been erected on it ?—I do not know. I understand it has been enclosed. There is also a reserve of 318 acres 2 roods 10 perches at Eotorua, near the Hot Lakes. The terms of the trust arc precisely the same as in the last case. The land is worth about £1 an acre. Those are all the grants that lam aware of. 352. The Chairman.] Were all these grants made to the Bishop of New Zealand ? AVas Bishop Selwyn the trustee ?—No, I think the grants vary. The first, second, third, fourth, and fifth grants described were made to the Bishop of New Zealand. The reserve of 175 acres 38 perches at Otawhao—given in trust to be used by the Church Missionary Society—l find was granted to the Yen. Archdeacon Williams, Archdeacon Brown, and the Eev. Messrs. E. Maunsell, E. Taylor, E. Burrows, G. A. Kissling, 0. Hadfield, E. Davies, James Hamlin, Thomas Chapman, I. Matthews, and W. Colenso' as trustees. The grant of land at Eotorua was made to G. A. Kissling, John Alexauder Wilson, and Eobert Yidal.

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Feb. 10, 1879,

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353. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know of any reserve at Maketu granted under the same or similar terms to tho Church Missionary Society? —I do not know of any at the present moment. 354. Would Maketu come in your district ? —Yes. 355. There is an endowment of 10 acres there which appears to have been granted for exactly the same purpose as the last two reserves you have referred to? —I will inquire into that. 350. Professor Cook.] Those form the whole of the grants to the Church of England ?—Tes, as far as I am aware at the present moment. 357. The Chairman.] "Will you state what educational endowments have been granted iuthe neighbourhood of Auckland to the Roman Catholic Church ? —There was a grant of 370 acres 1 rood 28 perches of land at the North Shore, in the Parish of Takapuna, near the Lake. It is known as the St. Mary's School Endowment, North Shore. It was conveyed by grant dated 19th August, 1850, and made to the Roman Catholic Bishop of Auckland. The grant is a free grant, and the land is to be held in trust as follows : " For the use or towards the support aud maintenance of the said school [St. Mary's School] so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to youth educated therein or maintained thereat." 358. Can you inform the Commission what has been done with that endowment ? Has any building been erected upon it ? —I do not know ; I have never been there. 359. Professor Shand.] Do you know the value of the laud ? —I believe it is worth about £10 an acre. It is inferior land, and suitable, I think, for depasturing purposes only. 300. P?'ofessor Cook.] Is it sufficiently near town to be adapted for building purposes? —Not at the present time. 301. The Chairman.] Have you any idea how it is occupied?— No. 302. As far as you know, the building known as the College is not situated upon this land? —I think it is not. 303. Have there been any other grants to tho Roman Catholic body ?—I find that there have been two others —ono at Freeman's Bay, in the suburbs of Auckland, of 4 acres 3 roods. The terms of the trust are precisely the same as in the case of the North Shore property. 301. Is that land made use of at present for any particular purpose ?—A very large schoolhouso has been erected upon it. 305. Is it used as a school at present ?—I believe so. The grant was made in 1853. I should think the land is worth at least £00.) per acre. The building which has been erected on the land must, I should think, have cost over £1,000. Then there is another grant to the Roman Catholic body of 191 acres situated at Rangiaohia, in the Waikato. The laud is good, and said to bo worth about £5 an acre. 300. As far as you know, was that land a gift from the Natives, or was it acquired by the Government and granted by them to the Roman Catholic body ? —I imagine that it would have been acquired in precisely the same maimer as the lands granted to the Church of England. I think the date of the grant was 1857. Those are the only grants made to the Soman Catholic Church. 307. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know anything of a reserve of half-an-acre at Waitemata, Lot 19a, Section XXV., City of Auckland, granted for school purposes ?—My attention has not been directed to it, but I fancy it is the site of the ordinary day school (St. Patrick's) in Hobson Street. 308. The Chairman.] Are those you have mentioned the only religious bodies which have these semieducational grants, as far as you know ?—Yes. 309. Have the Presbyterians had any grant ? —None that I am aware of, except their ordinary church and school sites. 370. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you tell us what reserves have been made for the Auckland College aud Grammar School, and who are the present trustees ? —There have been granted, as endowments for the Auckland College and Grammar School, thirty-three sections in the Town of Auckland, fifty-one sections in the suburbs of Auckland, and three rural sections in the Parish of Takapuna. The grants all appear to have been made in trust to Andrew Sinclair, Colonial Secretary ; William Swainson, Attorney-General; Alexander Shepherd, Colonial Treasurer; and "other the person or persons for the time being respectively discharging the duties of the said offices." Subsequently, by an Act entitled " The Auckland Hospital and Grammar School Reserves Act, 1850," the whole of these lands were vested iv the Superintendent of the Province of Auckland. Still later, they vested in the Auckland Board of Education; but now, by virtue of " Tho Auckland College and Grammar School Act, 1877," they vest in the Board of Governors appointed under that Act. 371. What are the terms of the trust ?—They are as follow: "in trust as an endowment for or towards the maintenance of such college and grammar school or schools, or as an endowment for or towards the maintenance of such grammar school _r schools, as aforesaid, and to pay and apply the rents, issues, and profits of the allotments or parcels of land hereinbefore named for or towards the maintenance of such college or grammar schools." A copy of the grant will be furnished for the information of the Commissioners. 372. The Chairman.] Can you tell us when these grants were made, and what extent of land is covered by them ? —The grammar school estate is comprised in four grants, the dates and areas of which are the following:—(L.) 21th October, 1850, for 4 acres 3 roods 10 perches of town land, 30 acres 2 roods and 208 acres of rural land. (2.) 2Sth October, 1850, for 33 acres 3 roods of suburban land. (3.) oth March, 1851, for 3 acres of suburban land. (1.) 29th December, 1853, for 4 acres of town land. 373. Since you have been connected with the Laud Office have these grants been in any degree supplemented by further grants from the provincial authorities for the purpose of aiding the Grammar School? —With the exception of tho plot of ground on the Grafton Road reserved as a site for the College and Grammar School, no additional grants whatever have been made in the interest of this trust since I have been connected with the Land Department. The site for tho Grammar School was reserved by the Provincial Government in 1871, and contains two acres. 374. Do you know whether any of the endowments before referred to have been utilized in any

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Feb. 10, 1879.

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Mr. Tole.

way ? Have they been let P —l believe a great number of them have been let, particularly those in the town aud suburbs, which I think have all been let. Rents are being derived from nearly the whole of them. 375. Professor Cook.] In a return presented to the House of Representatives in 1877 there is a series of educational endowments held by various religious denominations, the particulars of which— namely, the area leased, the present annual value, and the particular objects for which the lands were reserved —are stated as "not known:" are these the endowments of which you have given us an account this morning ? —1 believe they are. 376. Those are the endowments held by the Roman Catholic Church, tho Church of England, and the "Wesleyan Church ? —Yes; I find that the areas correspond, and I conclude they must be the same. 377. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In the return to which reference has just been made I do not observe any mention of certain reserves made under " The University Reserves Act, 1875." Can you explain why 30,000 acres reserved by that Act are not mentioned in the return? —No; nor do I know by whom the return was prepared. 378. Can you give us any information as to tho present value of the reserves made by that Act ?— Throe University reserves were made in this district, each containing 10,000 acres. One is situated at Taupiri; it is confiscated land, and of very poor quality, not being worth more than ss. an acre. The second reserve is at "Wakatane ; the character of it is forest-land somewhat broken, worth about 7s. 6d. an acre. The next reserve, situated at Karamu, is of a similar description —forest land and broken, worth about 10s. an acre. 379. Referring to "The University Reserves Act, 1875," section 3 and Schedule B, can you say whether the land at Kaipara, Parish of Ararimu, was defined by Proclamation by the Governor within six months after the passing of the Act ? —I am not in a position to answer that question. 3SO. Can you say whether it has ever been defined ?—ln answer to this and the previous question I am now enabled to state that the laud at Ararimu was defined by Proclamation within six months after the. passing of '' The University Reserves Act, 1875." The Proclamation is dated 13th April, 1876, and may be referred to in New Zealand Gazette No. 23, of that year. 381. What is the total amount of reserves set apart for secondary education in this provincial district under "The Education Reserves Act, 1877"? —5,593 acres 2 roods 26 perches, classified as follows: —Town lands, lot acres 3 roods 7 perches; suburban lands, 217 acres 38 perches; rural lands, 8,544 acres 2 roods 21 perches. 382. Professor Cook.] Do I understand that these 8,^93 acres do not include the reserves of which you have given us an account this morning?—No ; they are quite distinct; they are vested in the School Commissioners. 383. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you prepared to give an estimate of the probable annual value to let of these reserves? —I am afraid it is not possible to do so yet. I have got the annual rentals derived from both primary and secondary reserves, but it would be impossible to divide them. I find that 25 acres of town lands for primary and secondary education have been utilized, and that the yearly rental received from them is £378 ; 358 acres of suburban lands, yielding an annual rental of £384 12s. Bd. ; and 1,930 acres of rural land, which returned an annual rental of £333 2s. 6d. : tho total area leased being 2,314 acres 1 rood, and the total annual rental £1,195 15s. 384. Professor Cook.] And only one quarter of that is available for secondary education? —Yes. 385. Bey. W. J. llabens.] Can you state approximately what proportion of the reserves are now under lease? —In August, 1878, there were 2,314 acres, out of a total of 33,180. 386. Are there any circumstances that render it difficult to bring the others iuto the market? —Yes ; the fact of a great many of them being of comparatively little value at the present time. In fact, the Education Reserves Commissioners simply deal with those for which they have applications made to them: that is to a great extent their guide in dealing with them. A number of them also are situated in very remote localities, whilst other are densely wooded, or difficult of access. 387. Professor Brown.] But there seem to be a large number unlet amongst the town sections ? —There are some.2s acres let altogether iv the town. 388. And are there any circumstances which prevent the others being let ? —They are in distant little townships which merely exist on paper, so to speak. 389. The Chairman.] Do the bulk of these unlet lands lie north or south of Auckland ? —Chiefly in the north. 390. Do you know anything about the intention of the Government as to reserving 10,000 acres in tho Parish of Tauranga for the New Zealand University, which are said to have been omitted?—l believe it was originally intended to set apart either 10,000 or 20,000 acres of land at Tauranga for the object stated, but am unable to explain why that intention was not carried out, and the official records at my disposal afford no information on the subject.

Feb. 10, 1879.

Auckland, Tuesday, 11th Febbi'abt, 1879. Present: Mr. Gt. M. O'Eorke, M.H.R., in the chair. Professor Brown, Professor Sale, Professor Cook, Professor Shand, Eev. "\V. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Dr. Hector, 1)r. "Wallis. The Right Rev. "W. G-. Cowie, D.D., Bishop of Auckland, was sworn and examined. 391. The Chairman.] As successor of the late Bishop Selwyn, you are the bishop of this diocese? —Tes.

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Feb. XI, 1879.

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392. You are aware that a piece of land known as St. Stephen's was granted to your predecessor ?— . Tes. Ido not know on what conditions. The Eev. Mr. Burrows, who has the books, will be able to give you all information concerning this hind. 393. Then on this matter you would refer us to Mr. Burrows ?—lf you please; he has all the documents. 304. Who compose the governing body of St. Stephen's ? Is there any special governing body over it? —The Board of Management Trustees ; they make all the arrangements. The Bishop and the Principal are specially intrusted with the educational part of the work—with superintending the education ; the other trustees have to look after the management of the property chiefly. 395. Mr. Burrows would be able to furnish us with the names of the trustees, I presume ? —Tes. Mr. Burrows was himself appointed Principal by the trustees, although one of the trustees. It is an unpaid office, and we were only too glad to obtain the services of Mr. Burrows, who lived close by and understood the Maori character. 39G. There is an Orphan Home established on a portion of the land, is there not? —Tes. 397. Under whose control is il ? —lt is on land held by the same trustees, but the Home is not managed by the Church Trustees. It is managed by a voluntary committee, and is supported by subscriptions from the whole community of Auckland. A capitation allowance is made by the Government for all children sent there by the Believing Officer. 398. What is tiie capitation allowance ?—I am not sure what the amount is. Mr. Pierce is secretary to the Orphan Home, and he would be able to give you detailed information. 399. There are other endowments held by the Church of England, large endowments in tho Waikato : would Mr. Burrows be the proper person to give us information respecting those ?—Tes ; he can give you full information about them all. 400. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Will Mr. Burrows be able to give information concerning those trusts that are held by the Church Missionary Society? —Tes, he only. 401. The Chairman.] Does Mr. Burrows represent the Church Missionary Society iv your diocese ? —He is tho local secretary, and has the management of all their secular affairs here. 402. Prom whom does he hold the appointment ? —He holds it from Home ; not from me. He has no connection with us at all as secretary of the Church Missionary Society. He acts in conjunction with a Conference which meets here occasionally, sometimes not so often as once a year ; but 1 am not, as Bishop, acquainted with anything they do. lam not even a member of the Conference. They invite me sometimes to their meetings, but they are not bound to do so. 403. AY* it li regard to Sr. John's College, is that directly under your control ?—lam one of the trustees and one of ihe governors. There is a body of trustees holding tho estate, and a body of governors managing the educational part of tho College. 401. To whom would you refer us in order to ascertain how that institution is being conducted ? —To Mr. Burrows ;he is the secretary to the Board of Governors, and Colonel Haultain is secretary to the Board of Trustees. Colonel Haultain will tell you all about the property, and Mr. Burrows about the education; though I should probably be able to answer any question as to the educational arrangements. 405. Is it a school for general instruction, or is the education confined to theology?—lt is for general education. The trustees are directed by the Synod to appropriate the sums available for scholarships chiefly to candidates for holy orders. Whenever we have a candidate for a theological scholarship we appoint a theological student; but if ihere happen to be no candidate for a theological scholarship we appoint a youth intending to study for the law, the Civil Service, or any other calling. 406. Then 1 understand it is not exclusively a divinity school ? —Not at all. 407. Have you any idea what stall' of masters are attached to the College ?—There is only one master, the Bey. Dr. Kinder. 408. Do you know how many pupils are attending at present ? —Seven. 409. Do they live on the premises ? —Tes, the College being so far from Auckland there is very little hope of any day scholars. It is six miles from Auckland. 410. Professor Sale.] "What is the age of the pupils? —Above sixteen. I may say that Dr. Kinder is a distinguished scholar himself. He was a Wrangler, and a scholar of Trinity College, Cambridge, and has kept up his reading since, so that he is a very good classical scholar. Sir William Martiu had a very high opinion of his classical attainments. 411. Apart from scholarships, is there any condition attached to tho admission of a student ? — No, none whatever. 412. It is not the case, I suppose, that all students are scholars? —At the present time there are none but scholars; but now and then we have students who are not scholars. 413. The Chairman.] Could you inform the Commission what object St. John's College had in view when applying for affiliation with the University of New Zealand? —We hoped to obtain some help from the University Council towards providing additional teaching. The funds of the College are so small that we cannot pay a second master, and the College is so far from Auckland that we have no hope of any day scholars, and the community here does not comprise a large number of people able and desirous to keep their sons at school after the age of sixteen years. 414. Did you receive any pecuniary aid from the University? —None at all. 415. Was an application made for aid such as I have reason to know was granted to the Auckland College and Grammar School?—I think there was some informality in the application. I think it arrived too late. Mr. Carleton, who was one of the governors, was to see to this matter for us, and I think, owing to his absence in Wellington, he did not forward our application in time. I think that was the cause of our getting nothing —our application never having been before the University Council. 41G. Has St. John's College been open as a place of tuition ever since you came to the colony ?— No, it was closed for some time. 417. Was it closed when you arrived in the colony ?—Tes. 118, Have you any idea how long it has been open since you came ? —lt was opened again, I think,

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Bishop of Auckland.

■in 1871. Before it was closed in 18G8 or 1869 the trustees had, I believe, been receiving a grant from a Church society in England, which had enabled them to keep it open. They received, I think, £200 a year from the Society for the Propagation of the Gospel, and when that was discontinued tho College was closed. 419. Is there any connection between St. John's College and the Parnell Grammar School ?—The only connection is that the trustees of both institutions are the same people ; and the same remark applies to the governors. The trustees are not authorized to expend any of the funds of St. John's College Trust on the Grammar School. 420. Are there any undergraduates of the University of New Zealand at present studying at St. John's ?—Yes ; I cannot say how mauy, but I believe there are two. Mr. Burrows will be able to give you that information. lam not quite certain whether they matriculated this last time or not. 421. Have you any idea how many pupils are attending the Parnell Grammar School ?—There are seventy-eight at present. 422. That school is also affiliated to the University. Could you inform the Commission what was the object in seeking affiliation? —They hoped also to obtain some pecuniary grant from the University Council to enable them to increase their staff of masters. 423. Did they receive any aid ? —I think not; for the same reason that the College received none —the application was not made at the right time. 424. Has that school got any endowments to assist it in carrying on its work ? —Yes, about £60 a year. 425. From what quarter does that come? —From a house in Shorthand Street. 426. It was not a Government endowment, was it ? —!Nfo. I understand from the secretary that none of the St. John's College or the Grammar School endowments come from the Government. 427. Has the school then nothing to maintain it but this small endowment of £60 a year and the pupils' fees ?—That is all. It owns a schoolhouse, and, I think, a very small piece of land adjacent, producing a merely nominal rent. 428. I think you have a schoolmaster's house ?—No ; the schoolmaster rents a house from other trustees. 429. Has the school been crippled iv any way for want of funds ? —Yes ; if we had more funds we should appoint an additional master. 430. Are there any undergraduates attending the Parnell school ?—I think not at the present time, but I cannot say positively. 431. What are the school fees ?—Unless they have been altered this term they are £10 a year. 432. Has there been any change in the charge for tuition at the Grammar School at Parnell since you came to the colony ?—-I think not. 433. Tou said you thought there were no undergraduates at the school: can that fact be attributed to the competition of other schools in the neighbourhood?—l think so. 434. Is there a staft'of teachers at the Parnell school sufficient to train persons for entering the University of IS'ew Zealand? —I think so. 435. And for passing University examinations, and going through tho University course?— They have at present two Bachelors of Arts of London and Cambridge respectively, and therefore I think they are quite competent to prepare young men to take degrees; but the great difficulty they find is in having so small a staff for such a large number of scholars. 436. "What is the staff?— Only three masters, not including the drawing master and the master iv botany. 437. Does not the Kohimarama estate belong to the Church of England?— Yes. 438. At present, I think the whole estate is leased for the purposes of a training institution ? —Not the whole estate; the farm that is generally called the Kohimarama Farm is leased to tho Government. 439. About how much land does it contain ? —I cannot say. 440. Was it in any way an educational endowment?—l cannot say on what condition those estates were given. The Rev. Mr. Dudley will be able to tell you all about the estate. 441. Professor Drown.] Is Dr. Kinder employed in giving both theological instruction and arts instruction ?—Yes. 442. Can you give any idea of the average expense "of undergraduates attending St. John's College?—Tho ordinary charge is £60 a year for board and tuition. 443. "What remuneration does Dr. Kinder receive for teaching undergraduates?—He receives £265 a year—that is his stipend ; and then he gets £15 a year tuition fee for each student. 444. Professor Sale.] Are the students all training for holy orders ? —Not pledged to holy orders, but it is expected that they will enter the ministry of the Church. 445. They are theological students ?—We do not ask them all to make any promise when they go there, but we generally have an idea that they will become students for holy orders. The last one appointed, for instance, has gone there without saying at all what he intends to be. 446. And have you had at any time students who were not intended for the clerical profession ?— Yes ; several such. 447. Do you think that, apart from the money assistance which you expected to derive from your connection with tho University, St. John's College derives any advantages from being affiliated ? —I am not aware of any. 448. And the same with regard to the Parnell Grammar School ? —Yes ; I am not aware of any advantage. 449. Dr. Hector.] You mentioned incidentally, my Lord, that there were a botany lecturer and some other science lecturers employed: to what extent is science taught in the Grammar School? —Mr. Cheeseman attends regularly and teaches botany, and the pupils are examined in botany at the annual examination, just as in any other subject. 450. Is that in order to conform to the terms of affiliation ?—I suppose so. Mr. Watkins teaches drawing.

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451. If affiliation with the University were to cease, would these classes be maintained as part of the ordinary course?—l think lhey would. 452. Professor Cook.] Is botany the only natural or physical science taught at the Parnell Grammar School P—ln the ordinary course the headmaster may give instruction iv other branches of natural science, but I am not able to say particularly. 453. You could not tell us how many hours a week are devoted to botany ?—Xo. 454. Could you give us any idea what remuneration is paid to Mr. Cheeseman for his lectures on botany ?—Xo. 455. Do you know what staff of lecturers and teachers St. John's College had at the actual time of its affiliation with the University ?—I think Dr. Kinder was the only teacher, but lam not certain about that. 456. Your impression is that, when it was affiliated, St. John's College had only one regular teacher ? —Yes. 457. And do you know what staff was attached to the Grammar School when it was affiliated with the University ? —I believe there were three masters. 458. As at present ?—Yes. 459. When these institutions were affiliated, did the University make any conditions as to the amount of teaching that should be given, or anything of that sort? —I believe there were some conditions, but I am not able to say what they were. 460. I suppose you would not be able to tell us whether those conditions have been fulfilled ?— I believe they have been. 41S1. Are there any scholarships at the Parnell Grammar School ?—Yes. 462. How are the funds provided for the scholarships ?—Prom the endowment of which I have spoken—of about £60 a year. 463. Is all that sum devoted to scholarships ? —Yes, when we can afford it. Sometimes we cannot afford to give as many as six scholarships of £l 0 each in the year. The school buildings sometimes require repairs, and then we spend part of the money in that way, and give away the balance in scholarships. 464. But is no part of the £60 given in aid of schoolmasters' salaries ?—Xo. 465. The Chairman.] Do you think it would be desirable for the State to institute a free system of secondary education ?—I think it would. 466. You think it would be desirable to have it free, as the primary schools are ?—I think so. lam decidedly of opinion that there should be a free system of education up to a certain point. Ido not think the State should be called upon to pay for the special preparation of young men for the law or for the calling of architects or surveyors. Special instruction Ido not think should bo provided free by the State. I think it would be well for the State to provide a general education for the youth of tho colony. 467. And that it should not provide special professional education ?—Exactly. 468. Are there any scholarships maintained at tho Parnell Grammar School by Government funds ? —Xo. At present we do not quite see what advantage it would be for our young men at the Parnell Grammar School to obtain Government scholarships. They would have to leave the school. 469. Professor Cook.] Could not the Board of Education scholarships be hold at the Parnell school ? —I believe not. 470. Xor at St. John's College ?—I think not. 471. Professor Shand.] That is due to a regulation of the Education Board, I presume ?—Yes. 472. The Chairman.] Do you think that a sufficient number of scholarships leading from the primary to the secondary schools have already been instituted ? —Xo, I don't think so. 473. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Will you indicate your idea of tho number that ought to be provided, as compared with the present number?—l think there ought to be such a number that promising youths in the country might have a fair chance of obtaining scholarships : such a chance young people in the country have not at present, and I think the awarding of the scholarships should be so arranged that the people in the country should not be at the great disadvantage that they are at present. A young man in the country, however industrious or gifted he may be, has a very small chance of obtaining a scholarship at present, competing with the pupils of town schools, who have a great deal of help beyond that given by the ordinary teachers at the school. In towns, if they choose, candidates can have private tutors and attend classes in the evening, which assistance it is quite impossible for the majority of our people in the country districts to obtain. 474. Do you think that scholarships from the primary schools, to be held in the secondary schools, should be of such an amount as almost to cover the expense of living?— Certainly. That is a great difficulty with people in the country districts. To the north of Auckland —and I know most of the settlers in the Xorth—the people are generally very poor, and when I try to encourage the parents to send their more hopeful boys to Auckland they say directly, " How can I afford to pay for the child's board ? I have no friends in Auckland, and I canuot afford to pay for his board in any suitable house." 475. Professor Drown.] And would a larger number of scholarships provide for those boys in the country?— Yes, if there was some regulation allotting a certain number to the country districts. 476. The Chairman.] Do you think that the scholarships offered by the University of Xew Zealand are sufficient in number and value? —I think they are at present. 477. Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability of a general system of inspection and examination of secondar}' schools, and as to the character and extent of such inspection and examination?—l am' decidedly of opinion that the secondary schools ought not to be examined by any one connected with the schools —they should be independent examiners. As to the inspection, I think the Inspector cannot be too independent of the district in which the school is situated. 478. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do I understand then that you are in favour of a general system of inspection—that is, of a national system of inspection —of secondary schools ?—Certainly.

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479. And you think that both inspection and examination should bo provided for in such a scheme ?—Yes. 480. The Chairman.] Are there regular annual examinations held at the Parnell Grammar School? —Yes. 4SI. By whom is the examiner appointed ?—By tho governors. 482. Professor Cook.] You said you were iv favour of a national system of examination and inspection of these secondary schools throughout the country P—Yes. 453. Do you think tho University ought to undertake, or be intrusted in any way with, this work ? —I think it would be well. I think the Inspector and the examiner would then be more likely to be unconnected iv any way with the districts in which they examined and inspected. 484. Dr. Hector.] There is a machinery at present for inspecting primary schools: could that machinery be applied to the inspection of secondary schools with advantage, or would it be better that the inspection should be conducted by the University ? —I think, in the case of the secondary schools, the inspection aud examination had better be conducted by the University. 485. Professor Cook.] In England, within the last three or four years, for the purposes of an annual examination of schools, there have been established at Oxford and Cambridge two Boards working in conjunction with each other, and if a school wants to be examined it applies to these Boards to be furnished with examiners. Do you think, as the University of Xew Zealand grows stronger, that a system of that sort might with advantage be established here ? —I think so, for the secondary schools. 486. The Chairman.] Are you familiar with the working of the Xew Zealand University ? —I do not know that I can call myself familiar with the working of it. I take a great interest iv it, and read all that comes before me on the subject. 487. Do you think the present mode of appointing the members of the Senate, and the Chancellor, is a satisfactory one ?—I think that the educational attainments of those appointed to the Senate should be almost the sole consideration in such appointments, and that members should not be appointed merely for the sake of not appearing to favour one religious body more than another. Ido not think any consideration should be had as to what branch of the Christian Church a man belongs to when a vacancy is being filled up. 488. Do you think the appointments to the Senate ought to be made by the Government; or would you suggest any mode of election ?—lt seems to me necessary that the Government should at present have a voice in the matter, and that the Senate should have a voice. 489. It is proposed to have a body in connection with the University called the " Convocation," and under the law as it at preseut stands ad eundem graduates will be excluded from participating iv that Convocation. Do you think the ad eundem graduates should be allowed the privilege of participating in the rights to be conferred on the Convocation when it comes into existence ?—Until there is a sufficiently numerous body of those who have taken their degrees in Xew Zealand, it appears to me necessary that the ad eundem members should have a vote. 490. Have you heard whether any practical inconvenience has arisen from the arrangement whereby the Senate sits only for one month in each year ?—Xo, I have not. 491. With regard to the matriculation examination, how ought that to be conducted ? At present I believe it is conducted by the respective schools or colleges?—l would certainly prefer the system which obtains at my own University—Cambridge. Each college should be allowed to conduct the matriculation of its own scholars. We do not want to exclude any young men from our colleges, though they may not be able to take degrees, or may have very little hope of ever being able to do so. We wish to encourage as many as possible to enter our colleges and schools. We know how great the loss would be to England if no young men were allowed to matriculate at Oxford or Cambridge unless they were likely to take a degree. 492. I understand you to say you do not think the University of Xew Zealand should undertake the task of examining for matriculation ?—Certainly. 493. Professor Sale.] What would be the minimum age at which you would admit undergraduates ?—I am in favour of seventeen. I say so from what I have seen of the result of young men being admitted too early at Oxford and Cambridge. 494. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Assuming that the colleges should conduct the examinations for matriculation, do you think there would be an advantage in the establishment by the University of an examination at an early stage of an undergraduate's course, which might be called a first examination, and before which time should not count as to keeping terms ?—I think so, as long as there are no colleges and no residence is required of undergraduates at any particular place. To call a man a University man who has only had his name on the books a 3'ear or two seems to be imposing upon the public ; whereas, if there were a college for a man to reside in, his mere residence there for two years would be beneficial, and he might be called a member of the University. I think that, as long as we have no college in which the student can reside, until such a preliminary examination as you speak of has been framed he should not be called a member of tho University. 495. The Chairman.] Do you ihink that the present University of Xew Zealand fulfils its functions as a University? —At present the University does not profess to be more than the University of London is—merely an examining body. As far as lam aware, as an examiniug body it does perform its functions satisfactorily. 496. The Commission would like to ascertain your opinion respecting the proper functions of the University with regard to providing instruction ? —I have thought a good deal lately of the importance of the University providing all the great centres, like Auckland and the other chief towns, with the instruction that our young men are desirous to obtain for the purpose of carrying on their higher education. Ido not think that young men should be obliged to leave Auckland, for instance, because they cannot get the instruction they need, when that higher instruction might be provided by the University. 497. Dr. Hector.] Do you mean by the central University, apart from the affiliated institutions ? —I mean that if we had f uiids there should be public teachers who would have the imprimatur of the

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Feb. 11, 1879.

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University—men approved of by the University, who would lecture on engineering, or whatever the subject might be. 498. Do you think it desirable that the University itself should undertake any teaching work, or should that be done through affiliated colleges, as at present ? Should the University have direct teaching functions as well as examining functions; or in your opinion can a University in a colony like this fulfil its functions, having only examining powers ? —No, I certainly think it could not. If they had the funds I think they should also have direct control over the teaching. 499. Professor Drown.] Would it be better to have a single teaching body in each largo centre, or several ? As for instance, take the case of Auckland : do you mean that there should be only one central grammar school, as there is now, or that the University should have teachers in two institutions, say one in the centre of Auckland and another in some other convenient place for the population ? Should the University put its imprimatur upon more than one institution ? —I think so. I do not see why a school at Parnell, which gives just as good education as the central school, should not be encouraged in every way by the University. 500. But suppose the University were able to provide funds sufficient to make a complete University institution, do you think it should assist other institutions as well ?—I think so. 501. As well as establishing this completely fitted and equipped institution ?—I think so ; because the very existence of a second institution shows that one is not enough. But I do not see why a second institution—a smaller one like our own at Parnell —should be without help from the University. 502. Professor Cook.] Supposing a college —not a grammar school called a college, but a college bona fide, such as, say, the University College of London, in Grower Street —were established here, do you not think that one would be ample to supply all the wants of Auckland —I mean, not a school of boys, but a college for youths over seventeen, that being the limit of age you proposed to fix ? —lt is rather difficult to say whether it would be sufficient. 503. Do you think it would be desirable to establish more than one such institution in Auckland ? —I can scarcely say Tes or No to that. I certainly do not think it would be desirable for the University to establish two institutions of its own of that kind for higher education ; but I do think that, whilst the University appoints teachers to make one institution thoroughly complete, it should also at the same time assist another institution whose object is to give the same kind of education. 504. Even if one was a college in the strict sense of the term, and the other was only a grammar school ? —I do not see how you can draw a distinction very well. We have boys sometimes in our school just as old as they have at the central institution. 505. I am not speaking of any particular institutions now existing in Auckland, but stating a supposititious case : supposing the University were to establish, independently of these grammar schools, such an institution, say, as the University College, London, do you think that, besides supporting that institution, it should support the grammar schools already existing here?—l think it should ; but to what extent would be another matter. I think it is certainly the duty of the University as far as possible to encourage every educational body that comes up to its standard —not to the same extent as it would help the one institution you referred to like Gower Street, for instance, where there is a complete staff of masters and professors; but, where there is another college existing which comes up to the required standard, I do not see why the University should not also help it. 506. Professor Drown.] Then, supposing a primary school were able to train for a scholarship or for a degree in the University, do you think it should be assisted by the Government iv the same way :—in getting a secondary or a University staff? There has been an instance of a primary school training for the University, or of boys, either as pupil-teachers or as scholars, attending there and still trying to take the degree. Do you think such a school should have similar assistance to those secondary institutions you speak of—those grammar schools ? Should there be any limit drawn to the supply of funds to schools that are able to train for the University ? —lt is not commonly supposed that these primary schools would be able to do so. 507. The Chairman.] What is your opinion of the present standard for the B.A. degree at the University of New Zealand ?—I think the examination for an ordinary B.A. degree is quite all that should be required. If there is any mistake about it, I think it is more rather than less than should bo required for an ordinary B.A. degree. 50S. Professor Sale.] If there is anything excessive at present in the examination, in what part of the examination do you think the excess is shown ? —I think in what is called the scientific part of the examination. The papers I saw of our last examination appeared to require more than would bo required of an undergraduate at Cambridge to take an ordinary B.A. degree; and we do not want to discourage our young men from taking degrees. 509. Dr. Hector.] Do you judge of the character of the examination from the prescribed course, or from having seen the examination papers ?—From having seen the examination papers. 510. The Chairman.] With regard to the M.A. degree, do you think it should be conferred as a senior degree, or should it be made the subject of a higher examination ? —I think it should not be a senior degree. 511. Of course that means that there should be an examination for the M.A. degree?—Tes, 512. Professor Cook.] And of a higher character than the B.A. degree? —Exactly. But I do not see why Bachelors of Arts, two or three years after having taken their degree, should not be admitted to certain privileges, as they are at Cambridge, on payment of a certain fee, but without becoming Masters of Arts. There are privileges as to the internal administration of University affairs to which only those who have taken the higher degree should be admitted. As, for instance, at Oxford and Cambridge all members who have taken their M.A. degree have not the right to vote at the election of certain professors. 513. The Chairman.] Do you think the examiners for degrees should be appointed from persons resident in the colony, or from persons outside the colony? —Not necessarily from residents in the colony. I think the University should be at liberty to appoint any examiners it liked until we have a. 4—H. 1.

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Feb. 11, 1879.

Bishop of Auckland.

sufficient body of men whom we have trained ourselves. It has been a complaint made to me several times, in reference to examinations held here, that the examiners did not know how to examine, and it has been quite evident to me, when I have looked at their questions, that they did not. Some of the questions looked as if they had been taken from Colenso's "Algebra," and books of that kind. 514. Dr. Hector.] Are you aware that the University has appointed local examiners for Auckland ? —I am not certain. 515. The Chairman.] "What is your opinion of students being allowed to pass through a University by merely passing examinations without attending the lectures of the professors ? —I would not discourage any young man who wishes to take a degree, but I think it a great pity that any young man should go through his course without having the opportunity of attending tho lectures of professors appointed by the University. If a young man had prepared himself at home with the help of his father, and was able to pass his examination, I would not reject him. 516. Professor Sale.] Although you would not exclude people from graduating in that way, still you think it desirable that in all cases they should attend a systematic course of lectures ? —Tes. 517. Professor Ulrich.] "Would you favour us with your opinion as to the desirability of establishing technical schools in New Zealand, such as schools of mines, agricultural schools, schools for engineers, aud so forth ? —lt is very desirable generally that such schools should be established, I think ; but at the present time, in a new country, with limited funds, it is not, in my opinion, the first duty of the Government to provide special instruction. 518. Would you limit an agricultural school to a special agricultural district, and a mining school to one mining district?—l think that at the Thames, for instance, it would be a good thing to have a mining school for young men. "Whilst I do not think the Government is called upon to provide special instruction, I am of opinion that it should carry on a young man to the higher branches of a general education. 519. Dr. Hector.] Tou told us that in the case of secondary schools you thought education in them should be provided free ? —Tes. 520. And you think that assistance from the Government should cease where the education becomes special ? —Tes. 521. Where would you draw the line between secondary education and education leading towards a degree ? How far would tho degree of B.A. be looked upon as special professional education, in which case it would not be fair to charge it against the State ?—I do not consider any of the subjects for an ordinary B.A. degree special. 522. Should this support, which the State would give towards secondary education, be direct, as in the case of primary schools, or should it be by exhibitions and endowed scholarships ?—I think by both. 523. And in case of scholarships being given towards a B.A. degree, do you think it would be undesirable that similar scholarships should be given towards a degree of any other nature than aB.A., provided it was supplied by the University ? Should a person who is going to take a legal or a medical degree, for instance, receive a scholarship ?—lt appears to me that, if a man is going to prepare specially for the medical profession afterwards, still the same standard should be required of him up to a certain stage in his preparation as in the case of candidates for a B.A. degree. 524. A kind of limited arts degree?—Tes. 525. And it is up to that point that you would give State assistance ? —Tes. 52G. But not up to the full degree of B.A. ?—I think help should be given to all who wish to qualify themselves for the ordinary degree of B.A. Of the subjects required for that degree, Ido not call any special. If a man afterwards prepares himself for the law or for the army, I should consider that preparation special. But all those who are able to qualify themselves to take the ordinary B.A. degree should, I think, receive State help for that purpose. 527. Are you acquainted with the system of polytechnic schools for teaching science to those who are not undergoing a University course ?—I do not know much about them. 523. Do you think it would be desirable to establish such teaching machinery in this colony for giving higher education to those who are not in any way connected with the University, and who are engaged in employments during part of their time?—lt is difficult to say beyond what point the instruction becomes special. I think the general education should be provided by the Government as far as possible. Anything special, in the present state of the colony, must be provided by the people themselves. 529. "Without any endowments ?—I do not consider that you are now asking me what should be douc if we had unlimited money, but, iv our present circumstances, and with our limited means, how it would be best to expend that money; and I think that what we have first to do is to provide general education for all our people, and encourage as many as we can to take their B.A. degree ; but when theyembark upon a special department of study, however desirable it might be to help them, I do not consider there is a primary claim upon the Government. At the Thames, for instance, special instruction might be required for young miners : that would be a necessary part of their education ; but, as it would be given in their youth, such special teaching would be only elementary. 530. Professor Cook.] With reference to these classes of which Dr. Hector was speaking, I think you also mentioned something about evening classes. Do you know of the existence of any evening classes in Auckland for the promotion of either secondary or higher education ? —I believe there were such classes. They were not at all successful at first, I believe, and have been abandoned. I think there are one or two such classes now, but not very well attended. 531. For secondary education ? —Tes, I think so. 532. Do you think they are getting on better lately ? —Tes, but I have not inquired lately. 533. W There are they held? — One of them is held in the City East School, I think, and is conducted by Mr. "Worthington. 534. The Chairman.] Is there anything of the kind in connection with the Parnell school ?—No. 535. Have you been at any time a member of the Council or Senate of the University of New Zealand ?—No.

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The Eev. Robert Bueeows was sworn and examined. _ 536. The Chairman.] The Bishop of Auckland, who has just been under examination, has referred us to you, Mr. Burrows, for information with regard to St. Stephen's School, St. John's College, and the Parnell Grammar School; and I propose to examine you first with regard to the St. Stephen's institution. Tou were a witness, I think, before a Commission which sat in Auckland with respect to religious and educational trusts some ten years ago?— Yes, with Sir "William Martin; we wero examined together. 537. Has there been any material change in the condition of tho St. Stephen's institution since that time ?—Since then we have obtained power from the Government to lease for sixty years on building leases, and we have let some forty acres of the estate on building leases. We could not lease until we got an Act to enable us to lease for a longer term than twenty-one years, and since then we have been leasing. We leased a certain quantity, and we are simply waiting until the buildings are put up, so as to add value to the other portions, when we shall try to lease more, and so in time get the whole of the estate leased. 538. Do you recollect in what year the Act was passed enabling you to grant these extended leases?— About six years ago, I think ; but Ido not know exactly. 539. What is the amount of rental arising from these building leases ? —£l7l Gs. is the annual rental at present for about forty acres. 510. What is proposed to be done with the remainder ?—To lease it in the same way. We leased these by auction. We think it will be preferable to wait a little while until the buildings are up on the allotments already leased, so that the other portion will lease on much better terms. 641. And what proportion do you propose to keep reserved for tho institution ? —We have reserved five acres for the Native institution, and five acres for the Orphan Home. 542. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does tho Orphan Home stand upon the five acres reserved ?—Tes. 543. Professor Cook.] And it holds the land at a nominal rent ? —Tes. 544. For a period of twenty-one years, which expires in 1885, I think ? —I think so. 545. Is it contemplated that tho Orphan Home should still remain there after that date ?—Tes. We look upon it as part of the whole establishment, and, as a proof of that, after we have supplied the necessary funds out of the revenue for keeping the buildings and fences of St. Stephen's in repair, the surplus is equally divided between the Native school and the Orphan Homo. 546. That is new since 1869 ?—Tes. . . 547. Because it was then stated that the Orphan Homo was supported by private subscription ?— Since then an application was made by the Orphan Home Board, and it was recommended by the General Synod, under whose direction we act as trustees. That is the state of the case at present. The balance is equally divided after St. Stephen's School buildings are kept in repair, and £40 has been paid to the master of St. Stephen's School. The Government give the master a salary of £100 a year, and we give him £40 out of the estate, making his salary £140 a year. 548. How many pupils are under his charge ?—Fifty-three. He returned forty-seven in his report yesterday, but six of last year's pupils came iv last night, so that we have now fifty-three, and expect about five or six more. 549. Are the pupils Natives ?—Natives and half-castes. All, I think, sent by the Government. 550. They are distinct from the children in the Orphan Home ? —Quite distinct. 551. Professor Shand.] What sums have been paid over to the Orphan Home by the trust ?— About £40 or £50 a year; but this has only been going on for about two years. It is only recently we have had any funds at all; for many years the estate brought in nothing. 552. The Chairman.] Does the Government contribute anything towards the support of tho Orphan Home ?—I think not, The Provincial Government did. For any orphans they sent they gave at the rate of £10 a year. 553. Are the Natives at St. Stephen's taught in English ?—Tes; the masters do not know Maori at all. That is one of the conditions. The Government give a capitation allowance on all the boys they send. . . " 554. And they merely contribute tho £100 for the master's salary ?—Tes, and the capitation allowance of £18 per head for each pupil they send, or who is admitted on the authority of the Government. We have some ten or a dozen supported by private funds. 555. What proportion of these fifty-three are sent by the Government ?—Fully forty of them. 556. And you get £18 for each ?—Yes. 557. Professor Cook.] That, I suppose, is for their board and residence ?—Tes; it just meets the expenses of the board, and nothing more. 558. The Chairman.] Would you name the trustees of tho St. Stephen's institution ?—They are a general trust. The Bishop is the chairman, I am one, Mr. Pierce is a third, Mr. Cochrane a fourth, Mr. Jackson at Onehuuga a fifth, Mr. Mitford six, and Mr. Hill. Colonel Haultain is not ono ;he was formerly, but now there is a general Trust Board, including not only St. Stephen's but a number of other trusts. . 559. And does the legal estate vest in these trustees ?—I think the whole oi the trustees hold the estate, but I fancy that by the Act they can transfer their trusteeship to others. 560. Who were tho old trustees ?—Sir William Martin, Colonel Haultain, the Rev. Mr. Chapman, myself, and another. They were the trustees of 1867. 561. Professor Cook.] Those five trustees still hold the legal estate ?—Tes. I do not think the estate has been transferred legally. • 562. The Chairman.] How many pupils could you accommodate at St. Stephen s ?—One hundred now. We have just received £250 from the Government to build a new schoolroom, which is now finished, so that we have much more room. The former schoolroom we have turned into a diningroom, and what was before a dining-room we have for dormitories. 563. Dr. Hector.] The £250 came from the Native Department ?—Tes. ' 564. Professor Cook.] All the pupils board and lodge on the premises ?—Tes, and they arc all

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'. bedded, and all their school material is found, also a part of the clothing. "Wo get the parents to clothe them whenever we can, but in many cases they do not do it, and we are obliged to keep them as well as wo can. I have a copy of the last report drawn up by the first master, which I can read if the Commission desire it. (Report read. See Appendix IX. c). 5G5. The Chairman.] What steps are taken in order to teach the pupils-trades, or what trades are they learning at present? —It is a most difficult thing. I bave managed to apprentice two of the boys to a carpenter who lives in the vicinity; and the Government have called away several lads, sons of chiefs. There is one now at Oamaru employed in the Telegraph Office. There were two in Wellington in the Government offices, but one of tliem died not long ago. 566. At present I understand you are only teaching two boys trades ?—Only two in connection with the institution. Those two boys earn their own board, but we give them their lodgings. They still remain with us, but they are no expense to the institution. lam referring to the two boys who are apprenticed to the carpenter. Our difficulty is that we do not know what to do with the boys when they grow up. They get so attached to the school that they would stay there, I believe, until they were old men. At the last breaking up of the school, before Christmas, I had to tell six of tho bearded young men that wo could not have them back again. We did not know what to do with them, and they did not show any extraordinary talent. I think the best thing to do would be to put them to work on their own land: all of them wero sons of influential Natives, with abundance of land. I have over and over again pressed upon the Government the question of what to do with these youths. They have no wish to go back to their native homes. 567. I was under the impression that you had trained up some in printing offices ?—We had a printing office, but there was only one Native who could be taught, and there is a half-caste employed in Napier now who was taught printing at St. Stephen's. Some two or three applied themselves to the occupation, but their health failed them, and it was quite evident that it was an occupation which did not suit their constitution. 568. At present there are none learning the trade of printing?— No. 569. Dr. Hector.] Do you think, looking to their future prospects, that placing them in tho institution was mischievous rather than beneficial ? —lt leads to this : that there is a difficulty to know how to keep up the positions they have gained. They learn European habits, and it becomes a serious difficulty to decide what to do with them. 570. It unfits them to return to Maori life, and there is no other outlet for them ? —Tes. Although they may go back to their own people you see a difference. They do drop into Maori habits again to some extent, but any stranger can see at once that they have had a different training from what they would have received in a Maori settlement. There is a great desire at the present time on the part of Maori parents to get their children educated, especially to be taught English. 571. The Chairman.] Are any of these pupils trained up for holy orders ? —We have not had any from amongst the boys at St. Stephen's School yet, but I have my eye upon two or three who, I hope, may be of use to us in that way. Up to the present time we have not taken one direct from the school for that purpose. 572. Dr. Hector.] Have you ever thought of anything that could be done for them after they leave the school?—I have always thought it would be a good plan if something like a model farm could be laid out, to which these boys might go at a certain age. They would then have more industrial training than we can give them, and their education might still be carried on to some extent. But the parents generally have a great objection to their sons being worked too much. Most of the boys who are sent to St. Stephen's School are sous of influential men —chiefs and others—and when it comes to a question of planting potatoes, for instance, they say, " They can. plant potatoes with us. We do not send them to school to do that; we send them to school to learn." 573. The Chairman.] I think, under the trust, you are expected to provide education not only for members of the Native race, but also for Europeans. Has anything been done at the institution with regard to giving Europeans education ?—We have two or three destitute boys in the school, and it is open for day pupils. Besides these we have some ten or twelve pupils from the neighbours around. The parents make application, and we always receive the boys. 574. Do you teach them gratuitously ? —Tes. 575. Along with the Maoris ? —Tes. 576. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have the trustees found the terms of the trust sufficiently explicit for their guidance ?—I do not think any difficulty has arisen. 577. Is it your opinion that the conditions of the trust are being duly fulfilled ? —I think so, as far as wc can possibly do it. 578. Do you think that, having regard to the probable selling value of land, the present income by way of rental is as much as ought to be expected from the estate ? —lt is not what could be obtained if the estate were sold and the money invested, nor a quarter, I suppose, because the property would doubtless realise a very large sum if it could be sold. 579. Would you think it a wise thing to turn that property into money and devote the proceeds to the same purpose in another form ? —I certainly should advocate it very strongly if I thought it could be done. 580.^ And do you think that the objects contemplated by the trust are such as to make it desirable that the income should be made as large as possible ? —I think so. 581. Tou think they are all worthy objects ?—All worthy objects, I should say. I think that the terms of the trust if carried out would bo a public benefit, and the more the trustees had to spend, if it were spent in terms of tho trust, the more good would be done. 582. Do you think that any change in our relations with the Natives, or in the condition of the country, since the date of the grants, has in any way rendered these objects less necessary than they were ? —There have been some very considerable gifts from the Natives themselves for educational purposes, and, although the education of the Natives now is of as much importance as ever it was, yet there are

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not so many to be educated, and there are other lands coming in for that purpose ; so that I should say that in the course of j'ears there would be a very large income for the education of the Natives. 583. Professor Cook.] Tou mean apart from St. Stephen's ?—Yes, at present lying idle. There are no fewer than three estates up in the Waikato which are bringing in very little at the present time, but which twenty years hence may be valuable properties. 584. Tou said, I think, that you had not done very much in the way of carrying out industrial education at St. Stephen's ? —We were doing more in Sir Donald McLean's time ; but some of the chiefs complained of their sons being too much worked, and Sir Donald came to the institution and said he thought we should be carrying out the terms of the trust, with regard to industrial training, if we simply made the boys look after their own bedrooms and keep the place clean outside, and used them as stewards and cooks. Sir Donald said he himself would be quite satisfied with that as the industrial training. 585. It has not been only from want of funds that that portion of the trust has not been fully developed ?—I did not gain anything by it; I lost considerably by trying to grow anything on the land ; it is so very poor. The very year when Sir Donald came to me about it and wished that the boys should not be worked so much in planting potatoes, I gave £10 a ton for the seed, had to put iv a quantity of bonedust, and had a very bad crop ; so that I really lost by tho industrial training for that year. 580. The Chairman.] The Commission would like you to state what you know of the land that has been set apart for educational purposes in tho Waikato ?—There are three blocks. The one nearest the Heads is Kohanga, consisting of about 470 acres, given by the Natives to the Government, and it was conveyed by Sir George Grey to the Bishop in trust for educational purposes, 587. It was a gift from the Natives ?—-Tes. It is on the left bank of the Waikato. 588. Do you recollect what the trusts were when it was conveyed to the Church ?—The ordinary trusts which Sir George Grey had inserted in all these grants. 589. Professor Cook.] Is the trust the same as St. Stephen's ?—-Just the same. 590. The Chairman.] What is being done with this Kohanga property at present ?—Nothing is being done with it; it is lying entirely waste. Dr. Maunsell, before the war, carried on a very prosperous school there, which however was broken up when the Native disturbance occurred, and the buildings have not been occupied since. lam now under an engagement, with a person who has made an offer for it, to go with him to see what state it is in before anything is decided. But at present it yields no revenue at all, and all that has been offered by the person I have referred to has been to lease it for twenty-one years, seven years at £5 per annum, seven years at £10, and seven years at £20. It is very poor land and in a very poor district. It is below Mercer, and there is no encouragement for persons to settle there. 591. Are the buildings of any value ? —Scarcely any. There is a church there, but that is all. 592. Professor Shand.] Could tho land be sold if there was power to sell it ?—Ton could, no doubt, sell for a certain sum. I suppose it would fetch about 10s. an acre. It is a wretched district. 593. Professor Cook.] Tou do not think it would fetch from £2 to £3 an acre ? —No, I do not. 594. The Chairman.] What is the next reserve ?—The next is Hopuhopu, which is situated on the right bank of the Waikato, about five miles below Newcastle, and contains about 1,385 acres. Mr. Ashwell is living there. It is about midway between the Taupiri Mountain and Newcastle. Nothing has been done with it, except that Mr. Ashwell has a lease of about five acres, with five or six years to run. All the rest is lying waste. I was up there some time ago, aud met four or five individuals who had offered for separate portions, and when I returned I recommended that none of their offers should be entertained. 595. Was this endowment a gift from the Natives ? —Tes. 596. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you see any prospect of its being made available for its original purpose ?—I think so, in time; but we must wait until the lands around are taken up. It is poor land, and people are now looking above the junction for land, knowing that that is where good land is to be found. The estate is a very poor one indeed. 597. The Chairman.] What is the other endowment ?—The other endowment is further vp —at the far end of the confiscated boundary :in fact, one boundary of it is the confiscated boundary. It is called Puniu, and is situated between Te Awamutu and Alexandra, but further in the interior. It contains 870 acres. Otawhao is the name of the district, but the proper name of the estate is Puniu. 598. Is that where the llev. Mr. Morgan used to reside ? —No; Mr. Morgan lived at our mission station, Tc Awamutu. Puniu has been leased for twenty-one years, eight years at a nominal rent, and since the expiration of that term, about two years ago, £100 a year has been paid for it. It was leased in its rough state, and it is now in a good condition, and is producing £100 a year. Some of it is very good land, and other portions very broken. 599. To what purpose is that £100 devoted ? —Only recently the Board has voted £7 a year each for eight Native boys, who have been sent from tho King country by Mr. Sheehan or Sir George Grey. The Government give a capitation allowance to the Board of £18, which makes £25 for each lad. They are nearly grown-up men, and I complained that £18 a year would not feed such men and find all that was necessary for them —school material and bedding, and, in fact, clothing—for, coming from the King country, they brought no clothing with them, and their friends did not supply any. 600. Is the whole of the £100 devoted to providing for these Native youths ? —At the present time only £56 of it. On my recommendation the rent was confined to the Natives from that district. We thought it was better, so that in time to come we could show to the Natives themselves or to the Government that we wero. really using those rents for Native boys from that locality : because the land was originally given with the expectation that buildings would be erected upon it, and an industrial school established. 601. I understand that the whole of tho £100 is devoted to educational purposes ?—lt will be. We have now two or three more Native boys, each one of whom will require £7, so that the whole sum will bo pretty well swallowed up this year.

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602. Bey. W. J. Habens.] The balance of the £100,1 suppose, is reserved for such purpose?— Just so. 603. The Chairman.] Is there any other property held by the Church of England on the same terms and conditions as those three parcels of land you have mentioned ? —There is a place called Pepepe on the left bank of the river opposite to Hopuhopu. The area is 133 acres. There has been nothing done with that either. 604. Are there properties held by the Church Missionary Society outside the Church of England ? —The Church Missionary Society holds in Now Zealand through trustees appointed by themselves in the same way that they hold properties in other countries —that is, for the general purposes of the Mission. Two pieces, of which Otawhao is one, are held by the trustees of the Society for school purposes under grant from the Crown. Sir George Grey got his clause inserted as in other school reserves, although 100 acres of the Otawhao land were purchased by the Society, and used for years as a mission station, just as we purchased all the rest of our land many years ago ; but the late King Potatau added 70 acres for educational purposes, and Sir George Grey, in issuing tho grant, applied his clause to the 100 acres as well as to the 70, so that it is not exactly independent of the Government: that is to say, we cannot do as we can with our other properties—sell or exchange them, the same as a private individual may. At the same time we purchased the first 100 acres with our own means, and had a mission station there for some fifteen years before the 70 acres were given. 605. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is that the 175 acres granted to Archdeacon Williams and others for a mission station and like purposes at Otawhao ?—Tes. 606. Professor Cook.] And the 318 acres at Eotorua —is that the same ?—Just the same. That was a direct purchase, but it was before I came into office. Sir George Grey would have dealt with some of the other properties of the Society in the same way, but Crown grants on those conditions were refused. 607. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you allude to the property at Te Ngae ?—Tes. 608. Is it of any service now ? —lt is leased for twenty-one years at a rental which begins at about £12 and ends at £60. We have several Native boys from Eotorua—Arawas—and the proceeds when received will bo applied for the benefit of those boys. We have taken some trouble lately to explain to the Natives the way in which we are using any rents, and they seem not only satisfied but very much pleased. 609. The Chairman.] I understand generally that none of the proceeds from these endowments are expended in maintaining clergymen ? —None. 610. Professor Cook.] There is another property on the list—2Bo acres at Kohanga?—lt appears that we have a separate piece, I suppose adjoining the 400 acres, of 280 acres. 611. Would that be a gift from the Natives ? —I think so. Nothing has been done with it. 612. The Chairman.] I do not know whether we have anything to do with the Kohimarama property, but, as a matter of inquiry, perhaps you will tell us under what trust that property is held?— lam quite ignorant of that; but I believe it is under the Melanesian Trust. I think it was a private purchase for that trust. 613. What is your connection with St. John's College ? —I am one of the governors of the College. The trustees and the governors are two distinct bodies. There is a Board of Trustees to manage the estate, and the Board of Governors simply manage the money from the estate by appointing scholars, and carrying on the educational part. 614. Was the property held by St. John's College an endowment ? —No, it was purchased. Ido not think there was a single endowment from the Government. The land was all purchased, I believe, by the late Bishop of Lichfield. 615. In that case all we can ask you about is as to tho position of the College as an affiliated institution ? —We have at our disposal between £700 and £800, given to us by the trustees of St. John's College estate, which we devote to scholarships. We have founded eight scholarships of £60 a year each, and we have four scholars at the Church of England Grammar School holding exhibitions of £10 a year each. That amounts to £520. Then we have the Master to pay, who receives, I think, £266 a year. At all event., we find it just as much as we can do to get along with the £750. 1 • 616. Is that all the Master gets as salary ? —He is supposed to get something from the pupils. He gets the whole of the £60 for their board. He receives £266 a year, and has the privilege of boarding the pupils at £60. 617. Professor Cook.] There are seven there ?—Tes, and there is one to come, which will make eight. 618. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are any of them undergraduates of the University of New Zealand ?— I think one or two of them are. I know Davis is intending to go up for a degree, and I fancy one or two of the others are. 619. The Chairman.] With regard to the conduct and management of the College, would you suggest that we should examine the headmaster to ascertain precisely the form of education?—We have no headmaster at St. John's. Dr. Kinder is the master; he has no assistant. I should think it would be very well to examine him, and also Mr. Adams, of the Grammar School. I brought copies of the papers upon which both St. John's College and the Grammar School have been examined, and I can leave them with the Commission. The Eev. Mr. Nelson was the examiner in both cases. 620. Professor Shand.] What remuneration was paid to the examiner? —£10 for tho Grammar School, and £5 for the College. 621. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What are the objects aimed at by the two institutions ?—The object of St. John's College is to afford theological training for the ministry, and the Grammar School is a general school, the same as the Auckland Grammar School. 622. Are these institutions, in your judgment, accomplishing the purposes for which they were founded —fairly realizing their aims ? —1 think the Grammar School is, certainly. As one of the governors of St. John's College, my individual impression is that it might be improved. 623. Professor Cook.] Improved in what way ? —I should make it more general, with the view

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of making it a larger establishment. I think it should he put on a better footing, and be made a sort of general institution for boys, for instance, to be drafted from tho Grammar School. 621. Dr. Wallis.] Is anything else taught at the College besides theology ? —Oh, yes; the languages are taught, and mathematics. 625. Professor Cook.] It is not necessarily confined to theological students, or even to scholars ? —No ; our endowments are chiefly for theological scholars. If we can get them, they must take the first place. "We have two or three students at the College now who have not in any way pledged themselves to be theological students or go into the ministry. If we should get sufficient theological students whom we might think it desirable to encourage to enter the ministry the others would have to give way to them, because the endowments were given specially for theological training. 626. They would have to resign their scholarships to make way for the others ?—Tes ; it has been done in two or three cases. 627. The Chairman.] By whom is the governing body appointed ? —By the General Synod. Each member is appointed by one of the Bishops —I, for instance, represent the Bishop of Wellington—but the appointments are made under the direction and by resolution of the General Synod, which decides that each Bishop shall appoint a governor. 628. Each Bishop in the colony appoints a governor ? —Tes. 629. And do those persons compose the whole body ?—Tes. 630. Professor Shand.] Are they governors of the Grammar School as well as of the College ? — Tes ; there is the same governing body for both institutions. 631. The Chairman.] "When they are appointed, what term of office is assigned to'them ? —-There is no fixed time for them to remain as governors. They are obliged to resign if required. They can resign at any time, or be requested to do so by the Bishop who appointed them. If the Bishop who appointed me were to ask me to resign I should do so at once. 632. The governors, I presume, appoint the headmaster of the Grammar School. By whom are the other masters appointed ?—The governors appoint the headmaster, who appoints the second and third masters. 633. Professor Cook.] Has he the power of dismissing them, too ?—Tes ; the governors have nothing to do with the second and third masters. 634. The Chairman.] By whom is the curriculum of education prescribed ?—That is left pretty well to the headmaster, but he is under correction at any time. 635. Professor Cook.] And the same at St. John's College r —Tes. The governors consider themselves at liberty to direct what kind of education should be given. 636. The Chairman.] I presume whatever is done by the headmaster is subject to the approval of the governors ? —Quite so. He gives a half-yearly report to the governors, and they are at liberty to make any suggestions they think proper. 637. As far as you know, is the power of keeping up discipline in the school vested solely in the headmaster ?—I suppose it is. Any complaints will come before the governors, and they will, if necessary, remonstrate with the headmaster and request him to make any alterations they think desirable. He is quite amenable to the governors. 638. Do you think that the present curriculum at tho Parnell Grammar School is a satisfactory one ? —As an individual member of the governing body I should like to see a little more commercial training and a little less of classics. 639. Is the Parnell Grammar School freely open to all children whoso parents wish to send them there and who belong to the Church of England ?—Tes, or who belong to any Church. It is quite open. 610. I thought, under the terms of the trust, you were restricted to taking pupils belonging to the Church of England ? —No, I think not. lam quite sure there are scholars there whose parents do not profess to belong to the Church of England. 611. Bey. W. J. Habens.] With regard to the social position of the parents, have you been able to form any opinion as to the classes who use the school ?—They are generally of the middle, and perhaps what we may term the higher, class. There are also some boys who are sons of mechanics. No boy is excluded on tho ground that the social position of his parents may not be on a par with that of the others. The school is freely open not only to all classes but to all denominations. 612. The Chairman.] What salaries are given to the masters at the Grammar School? —Mr. Adams gave his second master, Mr. Bates, £100 a year as a morning teacher. 643. What does Mr. Adams get ?—Whatever he receives from the pupils; he gets no salary from the governors. 614. Bey. W. J. Habens.] He receives all the fees and pays all the masters ?—Tes. 615. Have you any means of knowing whether the remuneration to the masters is adequate?—l do not think that we hay that they stay. 616. Dr. Hector.] It is purely a private school, is it not ? —As far as the maintenance of the school is concerned we have no endowment whatever, except the four exhibitions. Of course we pay Mr. Adams £10 a year for each of tho four boys. 617. The Chairman.] But, beyond that, does the Church of England body contribute nothing towards the maintenance and support of tho school? —Nothing. 618. Mr. Adams, I understand, has 78 pupils. He receives £10 a year for each pupil, and has to carry on the whole school with the fees and pay two masters ?—Tes. 649. Professor Shand.] Ho pays no rent for the school buildings ?—No; ho has to pay rent for his own house. 650. And does he maintain the school buildings in repair? —No; we do that. We have a small endowment with which we are just able to keep the buildings in repair. 651. The Chairman.] In the event of a vacancy occurring in the position of assistant teacher, is any difficulty found in filling it up? —Mr. Adams has just now found considerable difficulty. Mr. Bates resigned on account of ill-health, and there has been some difficulty in obtaining an eligible successor.

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G52. On the whole, does the remuneration given to the. masters at the Parnell Grammar School fall very far below that given in the Auckland College and Grammar School ? —I fancy it has not been so much. But Ido not know what Mr. Adams is giving now. lam not quite sure whether Mr. Bates as second master received £100 or £150, but I do not think it was more than £150. 653. With regard to the annual examination, who appoints the examiners ? —The governors. 651. Bey. W. J. llabens.] Do you know if there has been any matriculation examination at St. John's College ?—I think there have been one or two. 655. In that case I understand tho governing body would appoint the examiners ?—Tes. I do not know what the law of the University is now. St. John's College is affiliated to the University. 656. The Chairman.] Do you think it would be advisable that there should be an inspector for the secondary schools, just as there is for the primary schools ? —I think it would bo a very good thing. 657. Do you think the appointment of such an inspector ought to devolve upon the Government or upon the University of New Zealand as an examining body ? —I should think the University would be best. I have more confidence in the University than in the Government. 658. Dr. Wallis.] In what respect would the appointment of such an inspector be advantageous ? —I think it would help to keep the schools up to the mark. 659. But do you not think that the money required for an inspector would bo far more usefully employed if devoted to the schools? —It would depend upon circumstances. Ido not think you could tell until you had tried the experiment. 660. You are in favour of such a trial being made ?—I think so. I think the more our educational establishments are open to the public, so that they may really know what is going on there, the better. 661. The Chairman.] As far as you know, have St. John'i College and the Church of England School at Parnell derived any advantage from being affiliated to the University of New Zealand ? —There has scarcely been time yet, I think. It has given a sort of impetus to the two establishments ; I think they have been looking up rather. Perhaps the Master of tho College has taken more interest in his pupils, knowing that they were likely to como more before the public than previously ; and I think, also, that Mr. Adams himself is desirous that the Grammar School should have a position, and be known in connection with the University. The Eev. Thomas Buddle was sworn and examined. 662. The Chairman.] The Commission wish to obtain some information from you, Mr. Buddie, with regard to the endowments granted to the Wesleyan body at the Three Kings. Are the terms of the trust, as far as you know, being carried out in that institution ? —I believe they are. 663. What is the position of the property ? Is it let? —It was divided into small farms, and let by public competition. 664. Is the bulk of the estate being utilized in that way ? —All but forty-five acres, on which the buildings are erected, and where we are now carrying on our operations. 665. What rental do you derive from the farms that are let ? —£299, I believe, is the total amount. 666. How is that money expended by the Wesleyan body ? —lt is being expended in the support and education of Natives—Native teachers whom we are training in the institution. 667. How many Native pupils have you got ?—Wo had eight last year. 668. And how many teachers have you for the Natives? —We combine with it a training instition for our young men for our ministry, and they assist me in conducting the work of teaching. The English students are supported entirely from other sources. 669. Are not the English students supported by the funds arising from the endowment ?—-Oh, no ; not at all. I can show you exactly what our expenditure has been in connection with the institution. We have expended during the three years £3,163 14s. 2d. The total sum derived from the endowment was £1,111; the balance of about £2,000 we obtained from other sources. Prom the Wesley College, which is private property purchased by us for educational purposes, we get £125 a year, it being let at a rental. We get that sum towards the support of the English students, and we get £150 from the Auckland Wesleyan congregations. We also receive about £200 per annum from the funds of the Wesleyan Conference, and the students themselves contribute a portion of their expenses. In addition to the annual expenditure I have mentioned, a sum of £900 has been spent in putting the building in repair. Only £150 of that came from the rentals; £758 was supplied from other sources. 670. Within what period ?—Within the last three years —since we opened the institution. We began in 1876. 671. What staff of masters have you got ? —I am the Principal of the institution, and employ my time in teaching as well as in superintending the studies of both Natives and Europeans. We have Dr. Kidd as classical and mathematical tutor, and the English students assist in teaching the Natives the elements of an English education. 672. Has the institution at Three Kings derived any advantage from being affiliated to the University of New Zealand ? —The Natives have not derived any particular advantage from it —not as yet. 673. I mean the institution itself. Did you receive any monetary aid?— Not a farthing. Our sources of income are what I have already told you —namely, the rentals from the land, the rent from the College building in Auckland, the sum of £150 a year from the Auckland Wesleyan congregations, a sum from the Wesleyan Conference funds, and contributions from the English students themselves. 674. But all the income arising from the endowments is devoted to educational purposes ?—Tes, exclusively to Native education. 675. Dr. Wallis.] Is there a definite sum required from all the English students who attend ?— No. Our Conference generally makes up the sum of £80. A sum of £80 a year being required, the

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students contribute what they are able, and our Conference pays the balance. Some of the students have paid the whole of their expenses. 676. Professor Cook.] Are these eight scholars the Native teachers you are training ? —Tes ; we are training them with the view of sending them out as teachers or ministers. We have sent out three, but one of them died. We have one engaged now at Hokianga, and we are sending out another this year. These young men are placed under the superintendence of an English missionary in a large district, and are to be located in the Native villages. 677. Tou have no boys or girls as scholars in the ordinary way ?—No. We are intending to extend our operations that far bv-and-bv. 678. Dr. Wallis.] Does Dr." Kidd teach these eight Natives ?—No. 679. Then they arc not taught the rudiments either of classics or mathematics? —No; they are not sufficiently advanced. Wo get them from the Native kainga, and of course have to begin with them in elementary English. 680. The Chairman.] Do you get any contribution from the Government in aid of the institution ? —No. 651. Not for these Native pupils ? —No, not a farthing. 652. We have just had it in evidence that in the case of the Church of England school at St. Stephen's the Government gives a contribution of £18 a head. I understand you get nothing from the Government ? —Nothing. At St. Stephen's they have a large school of boys. Our institution has been simply a normal training institution, and we have not asked for any help from the Government, but simply appropriated the rents from the land. 683. Who are tho trustees of the Three Kings at present?— Captain James Stone, Auckland; Mr. Thomas Eussell, solicitor ; Mr. James Heron, Shortland ; Mr. Frederick Lambert Prime, Auckland ; Mr. John Edson, Auckland ; Mr. William Griffith, Auckland; Mr. Edward Allen, Mount Albert; Mr. Joseph Liston Wilson, Auckland; Mr. John McEfEer Shera, Auckland; Mr. Eichard Hobbs, Auckland. 684. And tho legal estate vests in them ? —Tes. 685. Are there annual or half-yearly examinations held at tho school?— Annual. 686. Is a report made to anybody ? —The report is made to our Conference. I may say that since the institution was affiliated to the University we have had three non-resident matriculated students who passed the annual examination Inst year. They passed the matriculation examination last July. The papers have gone down to the Eegistrar. 687. Dr. Hector.] Was permission for non-attendance given by the Chancellor in respect of these non-resident students ? —No ; there was no special leave applied for. I did not know that it was necessary, and understood that it was provided for in the regulations. 688. Professor Cook.] Did they attend lectures ?—They attended regularly on Dr. Kidd. 689. Professor Sale.] At the school ? —No ; they regulated their attendance, according to convenience, at Dr. Kidd's own residence. C9O. Professor Cook.] Does your institution of the Three Kings regard that as sufficient attendance under the regulations ?—Tes. 691. Professor Sale.] Is the payment to Dr. Kidd on that account made by you, or by the pupils themselves ?—I make the pa3 rment from the funds of the institution. 692. Professor Cook.] Not from the funds arising from the endowments? —No; from the other funds. 693. Professor Shand.] Do you prescribe a minimum amount of attendance in this way, or do you leave it to the students themselves ? —They are to attend Dr. Kidd twice a week for two hours each time. 694. Tou consider that sufficient ? —Tes. 695. Have you sent up any students to the University examinations—l mean for degrees ? —-No. "We have only been in existence three years, and we were only affiliated to the University twelve months ago. 696. Bey. W. J. Habens] Can you describe the matriculation examination in the institution as to its standard and scope ? —lt embraced examination in classics, mathematics, English grammar, arithmetic, algebra, and history. The Latin paper was prepared by Dr. Maunsell; the Greek paper was prepared by Dr. Kidd, and also the mathematical papers. 697. Was there any minimum percentage of marks required for passing? —There was nothing fixed in the papers that Dr. Maunsell sent. They were returned to him, and he sent back a certificate to the effect that the students had passed. There were no marks fixed in the papers he furnished. 698. Professor Shand.] Have you got copies of these papers ?—No; I sent them on to the Eegistrar. 699. The matriculation papers ? —No, the papers for the annual examination. I did not send the matriculation papers, which 1 have and can furnish. 700. The Chairman.] Under the terms of the trust you are either required or allowed to carry on industrial training : has anything been done in that branch ?—We have no industrial training.—nothing beyond our agricultural operations. We employ the Natives every afternoon from two o'clock until five in gardening and farming. We have a small farm, grow our own mutton, keep our own cows, make our own milk and butter, and grow our own vegetables. 701. But I understand that there is no attempt made to teach special trades ?—No. I do not know whether you are aware that the first grants received were made to us for the special purpose of such an institution. We had not the slightest idea, when we began, of going beyond the objects of a training institution for teachers. The first grant of 192 acres, which we received in Governor Eitzroy's time, was for a Wesleyan training institution for training Native clergymen and teachers. Tou will find those grants all referred to iv the Blue Books of 1869, when some evidence was given before a Commission. 702. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I believe you had five grants. There are only four set forth in the Blue Book, and I think the original grant is the missing one; it is not printed with the others? —It may not be printed. 5—H. 1.

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703. Professor Cook.] Can you give us a copy of the purposes of that grant ? —Tes ; the terms of the grant are these : " Whereas it is desirable that a portion of ground should be set apart in the vicinity of Auckland, to be used for the purposes of a Wesleyan institution, and that the same should be vested in the Superintendent of the Wesleyan Mission in the said territory for the time being: Now knovf ye that we, of our special grace, &c, do hereby grant unto the Eev. Walter Lawry, Superintendent of the Wesleyan Mission, &c. [Here follows the description of the boundaries, &c, comprising 192 acres 3 roods 12 perches.] In trust for the general purposes of the aforesaid Wesleyan Native Institution: to hold unto tho said AValter Lawry, Superintendent of the Wesleyan Mission, and his successors for ever." 701. Bey. W.J. Habens.] And how would the Wesleyan body itself define a Native institution ? —lt was a Native training institution for preparing Natives for teaching and ministerial work. I cannot tell why it has been thus described in the deed —only that the land was granted to us for this special work. 705. By a training institution do you mean an institution for training ministers ? —Tes, for training Native ministers for our Native work, not for the European work. I commenced it. I came down to Auckland from the Waikato in 1844 and brought with me about twenty Native young men, who had been engaged as Native teachers in our work in the country, in order to train them for further usefulness. We collected money from the public in Auckland, and erected buildings in Grafton Eoad for that object, and there I carried on the institution for a few years. When Governor Grey came he saw what we were doing. He visited the institution, and said to me, " Tou are doing a good work. I think you might extend it. If you are willing to take in connection with your training school a Native school, I will make further grants ;" and hence the grants that Governor Grey made to us. 706. Dr. Wallis.] Then the original intention of the trust was purely for a religious purpose ? — Purely so. The fact is, we had no idea of any general school when we began the Native institution. 707. And the industrial tuition was tacked on by Governor Grey ? —Tes. 708. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the present Three Kings Institution upon the site of tho first grant from Governor Fitzroy ?—Tes, it is a part of it. That grant included 192 acres: we are occupying forty-five acres ; the rest is leased. 709. And has it been found practicable of late years to comply with the terms of the trust in the case of the other four grants?—We consider that we are complying with the terms of the trust now as far as we are able ; for you should also be informed that in accepting these grants there was sent to us a memorandum from Governor Grey, a copy of which I have here. It is as follows: — " Sic,-— ll Auckland, New Zealand, May 13,1853. It having become necessary for me to recommend for the sanction of her Majesty's Government the mode in which I propose that the public funds reserved in this country for Native purposes should be applied, I have the honour to state that I am prepared to recommend that the sum of £1,600 per annum should be placed at tho disposal of the Wesleyan Church in New Zealand for educational purposes in the two northern provinces, and the sum of £700 per annum for the southern provinces of New Zealand, and for the support of schools in connection with that Church which are already established, or may be hereafter established, in these islands : provided these funds are applied in conformity with the principles stated in the enclosed memorandum. When you have fully considered the plan thus proposed I should feci obliged by your informing me if it meets with your approval, and if the body which you represent are willing to accept the proposed annual grant on those terms. " The Eev. Walter Lawry, " I have, &c, " Superintendent of Wesleyan Missions in New Zealand, &c." " G. Giiet. "Memorandum. —1. New Zealand shall be divided into convenient districts for educational purposes connected with the Wesleyan Church. 2. All schools in such districts which receive any portion of the Government grant shall be conducted, as heretofore, upon the principle of a religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language forming a necessary part of the system pursued in such schools. 3. The schools which are aided from the Government grant may bo of three kinds —first, colleges; second, central schools; third, primary schools. Each educational district shall have at least one central school, which is to be made in as far as possible the means of multiplying primary schools in that district which shall bo regarded as being connected with the central school to which they belong : 4. So, generally, allowing that the most promising scholars from the primary schools shall have the option afforded them of being received into the central school with which they are connected. 5. In this manner the most promising scholars in the central schools will be eligible for election as pupils into the college of the district in which they are situated, when it is hoped that ultimately it may be found practicable to qualify Native teachers for the ministry. 6. Maori or halfcaste children, or tho children of inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean, as well as orphans or destitute children of European parents, are to be eligible for admission into any schools which may be supported from the Government grant, upon such conditions as may in the case of each school be determined by the Auckland District Meeting. 7. Any grants of land, for the support of schools will be made upon the usual trusts to the Superintendent of the Wesleyan Missions in Now Zealand. 8. The annual grant given by the Government shall be applicable to the three following purposes, in such proportions as the Auckland District Meeting may determine : —First. To the support of existing schools, and the establishment of new schools. Second. To provide the means of educating in the colleges, or in the central schools, scholars to be trained as teachers, who, in addition to the other duties allotted to them, shall teach in the primary schools. The total number of scholars to be educated as above shall, as soon as practicable, bo made up to twenty, and shall, if possible, be maintained at least at that number. Third. To provide for tho payment of sums (which, it is proposed, should not for the present exceed £10 per annum) in part payment of the salaries of accredited teachers who shall have passed an examination before, and have received a certificate from, the Auckland District Meeting, or such persons as they may appoint. 9. It is proposed that, as soon as practicable, at least twenty teachers in primary schools shall each receive this annual allowance of £10. 10. The funds appropriated to the purposes of schools supported from the Government grant shall be administered by the

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Auckland District Meeting. 11. An annual report of the state of the schools, and of the mode in which the annual grant has been distributed, is to be furnished to the Governor by the Auckland District Meeting. " G. Gbet. "May 13th, 1853." 710. I understand that that refers to grants of money. The immediate question was about these grants of land, and the trusts to which they arc confined, and which seem to be for the education of children ? —lt says *" any grants of laud for the support of schools," which includes both lands and money. The words are, " Any grants of land for the support of schools will bo made upon the usual trusts to the Superintendent of the Wesleyan Missions in New Zealand." 711. To what extent does that document identify the purpose to which the land is devoted with the purpose to which certain annual grants of money are devoted ? —I consider that we received the land and the money for tho same object, aud we havo used both for the one simple object of carrying on, so far as we have been able, Native education. We have never employed the funds for any other purpose. I was connected with all these arrangements originally, aud furnished annual accounts. I have copies to this date of accounts stretching from 1817 up to 18C0 and 1870 —annual reports and accounts furnished to the Government, all of which you will find in the Blue Books year after year. Before the school was broken up by the war, we had an annual inspection by inspectors appointed by the Government, whose reports can also be found iv the Blue Books. Mr. Carletou was one, and Mr. Taylor also acted for several years. 712. Professor Cook.] Then you ceased operations on account of tho war ? —The war broke up the establishment. The Chairman will recollect how all the Native schools were dispersed when the war occurred. The estate at the Three Kings was afterwards let for £250 a year. The Native pupils all left, and were scattered over the country, and we sent tho money after them—distributed the rents that came in among the missionaries residing at Kawhia, Eaglan, Aotea, Waipa, and Hokianga, and these schools were carried on throughout the war, some of them by Native teachers under the superintendence of our missionaries. The money went in that direction when the school was closed and the estate was let. Now that an improvement in Native affairs has taken place, we feel that we should do something towards resuscitating our Native work, and we believe the most efficient way to do it is by training Native teachers and ministers to go and act as miuisters and schoolmasters in the Native villages, under the superintendence of an English missionary. 713. The Chairman.] I understand you to state distinctly that whatever proceeds arose from these educational endowments were strictly devoted to educational purposes, and that none have been devoted to Church purposes ? —Most distinctly. The fact is that from Church funds we have been deriving considerable assistance. Our Missionary Society in England supplied a very large amount of money. For several years, we received £500 a year from our society in London to assist in carrying on the Three Kings. They paid Mr. Reid's stipend the whole of the years he was .Principal there, besides allowing us £500 a year top assist in carrying on our Native education. £200 of that amount was devoted towards the training of the young men we had at the institution, and the £300 was distributed amongst the Native primary schools out in tho country. 714. At whose expense were the buildings erected at the Three Kings?—l think partly by assistance from the Government, and partly by assistance from the English missionary society. We had as many as 150 Natives as pupils at the institution at one time—children and young men. We had several young men as teachers and monitors among the children. The ages varied from eight or ten to thirty years. 715. Professor Shand.] Did they reside in the institution ?—Yes. The present building is a large building, which the young men under the direction and superintendence of an English carpenter erected. The house I now live in was also built in the same way. 716. The Chairman.] Were the 150 pupils all boarded at the institution ? —Tes. We then had the whole of the land in our own hands, and kept a farm servant, who superintended and conducted the farming operations, and, of course, wc raised a good deal of produce, and sometimes sold produce in aid and support of the institution. 717. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do I understand you to maintain that these reserves, set apart for the education of children of both races, are now devoted to that object indirectly, by being applied to the training of Native persons who are to be teachers of the Native children?—l consider that we are employing the funds in perfect accordance with this memorandum by Sir George Grey. You perceive the distribution is placed in the hands of the Auckland District Meeting. We had no New Zealand Conference then. VV'e were part of the Australasian Wesleyan Conference, and our District Meeting was our supreme ecclesiastical court in this country. Now we have our Conference, and the matter is in the hands of our New Zealand Conference. 718. Then, do I understand that you rely rather upon the trusts expressed in the memorandum you read than on the trusts expressed in the deeds of grant ? —I rely upon both. I consider that an agreement was made between us and the then Governor of the colony. He states certain conditions, and asks us if we will agree to carry on the work on those conditions, and if we will accept the grants ou the conditions specified in these documents. We agreed to do so. We conceived that we received the grants of land for the same purpose ; and while it is required that both children of destitute English parents and children from the Pacific Islands shall be eligible to be admitted, yet Sir George Greyjleaves the selection with the District Meeting—" upon such conditions as may iv "the case of each school be determined by the Auckland District Meeting." 719. Then in effect you propose not to read the Crown grants by themselves, but in connection with the memorandum ? —Yes, and in connection with our model deed, which gives the trustees perfect power. 720. Do I understand that you maintain that, whatever may have been the trusts impressed upon these lands by the Crown grant, those trusts may be at any time shaken off by bringing the lands under the model trust deed ?—They are under the model trust deed; but we consider ourselves morally bound to carry out the terms of this memorandum, and apply any proceeds that may arise solely and exclusively to Maori education, or, if there are no Maoris, to educate of course the other parties interested.

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721. Still, I understand the position is that you maintain that, by the bringing of any property under the model trust deed, the original trusts are merged in the general trusts expressed in the deed .—Yes, legally they are. At least we are so instructed. 722. Professor Cook.] Tour estate at tho Three Kings comprises, I think, 192 acres, granted by Governor _F itzroy in 1845 ? —Yes. 723. In 1850 you received two grants—one on the 31st August of 20 acres, and one on the 15th October—of two blocks comprising together 527 acres ? —Yes. 724. "What was done with those ?—Those are the blocks that were cut up into small farms, and from which we are deriving tho revenue I have spoken of, and with which we are supporting our present institution. 725. The revenue amounting to something like £299 a year ? —Yes. 72(5. "What land is reserved for the Three Kings itself as an institution ? —Forty-five acres, being part of the 192 acres. 727. Are the other 150 acres let ? —Yes. 725. There are two other grants of 19 acres and G5 acres ?—All those lands were let by auction, and they yield an annual income of £299. 729. The first grant that appears to have been made to the "Wesleyan body bears date 7th of October, 1844 ? —Yes; that is a grant of land in the Grafton Eoad, where we had our first institution. 730. "What were the trusts declared on that? —Precisely the same as in the case of the 192 acres. 731. The general purposes of a "Wesleyan Native institution? —Yes. 732. "Was that given by Governor Fitzroy ? —Yes. 733. "What is being done with that property ? —lt is leased, and tho funds come into our institution revenue, and are added to the £299. We receive £299 per annum from the Three Kings property, and £14G per annum from tho lease of the Grafton Eoad property, making a total of £445. 734. Is £146 all the rent you receive for the 6} acres ? —That is all. 735. Do you know when tho leases are likely to fall in ?—I think the leases are for twenty years. We publish an account of our income and expenditure every year. We render an accouut to our annual Conference, and it is published. 736. The Chairman.] Was the Grafton Eoad endowment granted as a church site, or as an educational endowment ?—As an educational site. 737. Not specifically as a church site ? —-No. It was granted for Native purposes. When wc lived there, of course, we had a church on the spot for Natives, and had a Native congregation there. 735. Professor Cook.] Was this Grafton Eoad property let by auction ? —lt was let while I was away, but I think so. 739. Do you not think that an income of something less than £300 a year is a very small income to be derived from about 800 acres of land ?—I cannot pretend to judge. As the land was put up at auction I suppose it brought its market value. 740. Do you think it would be to the benefit of the institution if the Wesleyan body had power to sell the laud and invest tho money ?—I am not prepared to say that it would be. I cannot tell. It might be. 741. Supposing the land were sold and the money funded, would it be likely to return more than £300 or £400 a year in interest?—l have not sufficient information to answer that, but I fancy not. It must be remembered that a good deal of the land is covered with scoria. It is, in fact, part of the volcanic hills and a large swamp of 2SO acres. 742. Dr. Wallis.] Does it include the caves ? —Yes, and all that stony land round about. 743. The Chairman.] Is not a portion of your endowment on the shores of the Manukau ? —Yes ; there is a strip on the shores of the Manukau which is let for £10 per annum. It is comparatively valueless as land. 744. It is the piece containing 227 acres, I think?— Yes. It was granted to us originally for supplying firewood, and for a fishing and bathing station for the Natives. It is only bringing in £10 per annum. 745. From your general knowledge of tho value of that class of land, what would you estimate to be its value per acre ? —I cannot pretend to put an estimate upon it. 746. Has the Wesleyan body had any other endowments for educational purposes ? —-Yes. There are others in the country, but lam afraid they are of very little use. Wo had one at Aotea, but that is in the hands of the llauhaus. It was granted by the Natives themselves. It was not from the public estate. The Natives reserved it for educational purposes in connection with the Wesleyan body, and the Government gave a grant for it; but we cannot use it. The area is 402 acres. 747. Is there any other endowment in a similar position? —I think there is another piece of land at Waiharakeke in the same position, also in the hands of the Hauhaus. We had a mission station there which was purchased by our society in the early times from the Natives ; it was not Government land. 748. Dr. Hector.] Have you a grant at Mokau—there is an old mission station there ? —The Natives made a reserve for educational purposes. 749. The Chairman.] You alluded in your examination to a model trust deed: could we see a copy of it ? I understand it is some formal document ?—Yes ; it is a very long document setting forth the trusts under which the properties are to be held. 750. I do not suppose it in any way overrides the Crown grant in regard to the terms of the trust? —So far as I understand it, it gives power to the trustees to use those properties for such purposes as are set forth in tho model deed— i.e., such religious objects as are set forth. 751. But in these trust estates are not the bodies bound by the terms of the trust expressed in the grants signed by the Governor of the colony?—lf these trusts be recognized, as they have been, by " The Eeligious, Charitable, and Educational Trusts Act, 15.6," which recognizes the model deed, I suppose that that is our legal quide —the model deed, enrolled in the Supreme Court.

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752. Then do you consider that these trust properties arc governed by the model trust deed to which you refer rather than by the terms of the Crown grant ? —Tes ; I think you will find that that is really the legal position of them. All the Wesleyan properties are held under the model deed mentioned in the Eeligious and Charitable Trusts Act of 1350. 753. Has your institution derived any benefit from affiliation up to the present time ? Have you sent any pupils up ? —No, not directly from our theological students; only those three young men I have spoken of, who are teachers in some of the Government schools and are studying for a degree. 754. Do you think that the present mode of appointing the Senate of the University of New Zealand is a satisfactory one ?—I am scarcely prepared to give an opinion on that subject. 755. Was there any special agreement made with tho Three Kings about affiliation ?—No. I made application to the Senate, by authority of our annual Conference. It will be found in page 18 of the Minutes of Proceedings of the Senate for IS7B. 750. Dr. Hector.] Are lectures given on physical and natural science ?—We have not required them ; we have had a gentleman ready to give them. 757. Professor Cook.] What object did the Wesleyan Conference suppose they would gain for the institution by affiliation?—lt was simply this: Wo supposed that our young men studying for our ministry might, if they chose, study for a degree iv our own institution without having to enter any other college. That was our object. 758. The Chairman.] You are a member of the Senate of the University of New Zealand? —Yes. 759. As a matter of opinion, do you think that institution meets the University requirements of the colony at the present time ? —I have always regarded it as being the best arrangement for meeting the educational wants of the colony in the present state of things. I would prefer its existence as an examining body to its being made a teaching institution. 700. Up to tho present time you have sent no candidates from the Three Kings for a degree?— No. None of our own young men who are residents and studying for our ministry have gone yet. 701. Are you preparing any students for becoming candidates for the B.A. degree ? —Yes, the three matriculated students already referred to; aud we hope that some of our theological students will reach that far. But owing to the great demand we have had for ministers we have been unable to keep them long enough in the institution. 702. Up to the present time I understand there have been no matriculated students ? —Not from our students in theology resident in the institution. There are three matriculated students whose names are upon the books of our institution, but they are not residents. 703. Professor Shand.] And they do not receive any instruction at the College ? —No, they receive it from Dr. Kidd as a matter of convenience—from Dr. Kidd as representing the institution. 704. Dr. Hector.] I understand that these students have been examined, and that their examination papers have been forwarded to the Eegistrar ? —Yes. 705. The Chairman.] Where do they receive instruction from Dr. Kidd? —At his own house. They are engaged in teaching throughout the day, and go to Dr. Kidd when they can find time. 700. Professor Shand.] Are you aware of the subjects in which Dr. Kidd gives them instruction ? —He gives them instruction in Latin, Greek, and mathematics. 707. And the time, I think you said, was two evenings per week ? —Two hours twice a week—two evenings a week. 708. Professor Sale.] Do they all attend Dr. Kidd at the same time? —Yes, I believe so. They are pursuing their work together. One of them is a young man who is preparing for the English Church, aud is teaching in St. Stephen's Native School. Another young man is also a teacher at one of the schools in town; a third is au articled clerk to a solicitor. 7G9. The Chairman.] Does the Wesleyan institution remunerate Dr. Kidd for teaching these three students? —No, they pay their own expenses. 770. Professor Cook.] Then is it part of his duty to teach these students although he receives no remuneration for it ?—The students pay him. 771. But is it part of his duty as connected with the Three Kings to teach them although he receives no remuneration from that institution for doing so? —Yes ; that is our arrangement with Dr. Kidd. 772. The Chairman.] What salary does Dr. Kidd receive as a teacher at tho institution ?—He gets at present £75 per annum, visiting us two days a week, from 11 o'clock until 1 o'clock. 773. Do you yourself conduct the rest of the education ? —Yes ; I spend all my mornings there, generally from about 9 o'clock until 1 o'clock, besides having occasional classes iv the evening.

Sett. T. Buddie.

Feb. 11,1879.

Wednesday, 12th Febeuaey, 1879. Present: Mr. G-. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Professor Sale, Professor Cook, Professor Shand, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Dr. Hector, Dr. Wallis. His Honor Mr. Justice Gillies was sworn and examined. 771. The Chairman.] You are the Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Auckland College and Grammar School ? —J. am. 775. Previous to your being appointed to that office, I think you were connected with the school as Superintendent of the province ? —1 forget in what capacity, but it was simply as Superintendent that I had to do with the management of the institution. 770. What funds are available for the maintenance of the school, independent of fees ? —-I might explain that originally certain properties were set aside in trust for the establishment of a college and

Judge Gillies.

, Feb. 12, 1879.

H.~ 1.

grammar school, and for many years the income from these properties was allowed to accumulate, until some few years ago, when the Auckland College and Grammar School was started, and when it was thought that there wero sufficient funds to provide an income. If I remember rightly, there is a sum of about £7,000 of accumulated capital lent out on mortgage. That, and the rentals from some properties held in trust, are the only sources of income possessed by the College and Grammar School. 777. Professor Sale.] Set aside by the Provincial Government ? —No. The properties were principally set aside by Sir George Grey at the original foundation, and subsequently I thiuk some properties were set apart by the Provincial Government. 778. The Chairman.] Perhaps you could state the amount of income derivable from these mortgages and properties ? —I cannot do so from memory. 779. Has the Grammar School had to contend against any difficulties in regard to having proper buildings ?—Exceedingly great difficulties. In fact it has been a wonder how the school has managed to survive all the difficulties it has had to undergo for want of buildings. Originally, when the school was started, it was carried on in what is now used as the Industrial Homo. That was found to be inconvenient, and it was removed to a stone building in the Barracks, where it was held until last year, when the Improvement Commissioners turned us out; and now a part of the school is being held in the District Courthouse, another part in a Wesleyan chapel, aud another part in a schoolhouse attached to the Scotch Church, so that the school is absolutely broken up into three different portions, having no proper playgrounds attached; and of course it is a very great disadvantage to the school to be broken up in that way : the masters not being together, and the scholars also being separated, the Headmaster cannot exercise that supervision over them which he ought to do. But the reason of all is that ihe funds have just been barely sufficient to pay the staff, and that, if we had taken any of the capital to put up a building, we should not have been able to pay the masters, and the work of the school could not have gone on. 780. What were the objects for establishing this Grammar School—the trust objects ? —I think you had better get that information from the trust deed ; I forget. There are some five or six items in the trust deed —principally for establishing a college or grammar school or schools on tho isthmus of Auckland. I think that is the principal trust; and then it goes on to detail the branches of learning, and to state also that there shall be eveniug classes. 781. Speaking generally, are the objects of the trust, so far as you know, being carried out reasonably ? —So far as lam aware they are—only defectively because of the want of funds. Originally, when the school was started, I think there were only about fifty scholars, and now there are over two hundred. 782. Are the aims of this Grammar School being fairly attained as far as you can judge ?—So far as I can judge by results, they seem to be. The boys seem to get on well, and the public seem to appreciate the school. It is always increasing, and the success of the boys who have left the school has been very general. Two of my own boys, if not educated at the Grammar School altogether, were taught under the same master, partly at the Grammar School and partly when he was a private teacher, and I know there are a large numbar of the Grammar School boys in banks and in mercantile establishments. When these establishments want to fill up vacancies they are very ready to take a boy who comes from the Grammar School. 783. How are the members of the governing body appointed ?—Three are elected by the Education Board, three by the members of the Assembly for Auckland, and the Mayor of Auckland is a member ex officio, making in all seven. 78-1. Tor what period of time do these members hold office ? —One of the members elected by the Education Board goes out annually, and one of those elected by the members of the Assembly goes out annually. 785. So that the term is for three years ?—Yes. 786. Dr. Hector?\ Are they elected or nominated ?—Elected. There is an elaborate procedure for election. There is a poll open from niue iv the morning until five in the afternoon—a most elaborate machinery. 787. How many members of the Assembly for Auckland are there ? —Sixteen representatives, I thiuk —about twenty-four members of both Houses. Those who retire from the Board are eligible for re-election. 788. Does " The Auckland Collego and Grammar School Act, 1577," supersede any conditions in the original grant ?—Xo. It specially provides that it shall be under the same trusts. 789. The Chairman.] Previous to tho constitution of the Board of Governors, who controlled the Grammar School? —I think the Superintendent of the province was the trustee. After the abolition of the provinces I think the Board of Education had charge of it for about a year ; and before that the Superintendent and his Executive Council. 790. Are you aware of the extent of power intrusted to the headmaster?—l am not aware that there is any special power. He has the general control and management of the school. 791. ln whom does the power of appointing and dismissing the other masters rest ?—ln the Board. Of course the Board invariably consults the headmaster as to the eligibility of the candidates, but the appointment itself rests in the Board. 792. By whom is the curriculum of study drawn up ? —By the headmaster. 793. Is the time-table prepared by the Board of Governors or by the headmaster ?—By the headmaster. Of course, if there are any changes, they are submitted by the headmaster to the Board for approval, but in reality it is done by the headmaster. 794 i. Professor Cook.] Does the headmaster submit the time-table for the approval of the Board quarterly or annually, or at any time when ho makes important changes?—l cannot say, because the present Board has not been long enough in existence. We have only been about one year in office. When the school was removed from one place to another, some changes in the time-table were rendered necessary by the alteration in the buildiugs, aud the headmaster simply made those alterations, and reported them for approval at the first meeting of the Board.

Judge Gillies.

Feb. 12, 1879.

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795. The Chairman.] The headmaster, I think, is the person charged with the discipline of the school ?—Tes. 796. Do you think that the present curriculum of study is best fitted for the education of the youth attending the school ? —I am not competent to judge. 797. Is the school open to all classes of the community ? —Yes —that is to say, to all who can pay eight guineas a year. It is not confined to any particular class or religious denomination. I know that boys of all denominations attend. 798. Professor Shand.] Is it generally attended by boys of all classes of society ? —Tes. I should mention that there are a certain number of free scholars from the primary schools who have scholarships from the Education Board. I forget how many, but there are a considerable number. 799. Dr. Hector.] Are fees not paid by the Education Board ?—I think not. 800. Professor Shand.] And the school does not charge fees for these boys ?—Xo. 801. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Then the whole amount of the scholarship allowance goes for the maintenance of the boys, apart from their education ? —Tes, in reality. 802. Is this relation between the Education Board and the Grammar School a survival from an earlier state of things ? —lt survives from the time when the Education Board had the management, last year. 803. And it is not by any special arrangement with the present governing body ?—No. 804. The Chairman.] Are the masters of the school paid wholly by fixed salaries, or do they receive capitation allowance, or in any way participate in the fees ?—They have no allowances, and in no way participate in the fees, but have fixed salaries. 805. Do you consider the remuneration of the headmaster and the other masters fairly adequate ? —I do not. One reason for thinking so is this : that whenever we have a good master —I am speaking of the other masters, not the headmaster —we cannot keep him, as he very soon gets an appointment with better pay. The constant change of masters in that way has been greatly to the detriment of tho school. 806. Professor Cook.] Do I understand that you think the remuneration of the undcrmasters is not sufficient, but that the remuneration of the headmaster is sufficient ?—I do not think the salary of the headmaster is sufficient, looking to the salaries that are received by the heads of similar institutions elsewhere—in Dunedin, for instance, and Christchurch. 807. Professor Drown.] What is the salary of the headmaster ?—I think it is £700 a year. 80S. Do you know what the salaries are in Christchurch and Dunedin ?—I think I saw lately that the salary of the new headmaster of the Dunedin High School was £800 a year or more. 809. And in Christchurch? —I do not remember; but I understood they were higher. I know, for instance, that Mr. Curnow, who went to Christchurch, was taken from our Grammar School at a higher salary. 810. The Chairman.] I think what you state is this: that several of your masters have been drawn away by getting higher salaries elsewhere ?—Tes. 811. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is there any addition to the £700 a year salary paid to the headmaster ?—No. . 812. No house ?—No. 813. Professor Shand.] Tou think, then, that the Board of Governors would give higher salaries to the masters if their funds were not so limited?—l have very little doubt of it. Last year almost all the masters applied for an increase of salary, but the Board of Governors were unable to accede to the request. They said, "We really have not tho funds. We would like to raise the salaries so as to keep the men, but we cannot do it." 814. The Chairman.] What is the course adopted by the Board of Governors in order to supply a vacancy on the staff? —Public advertisement, both here and in Australia. 815. When these advertisements are published are there generally a fair number of well-qualified applicants ?—There are a great number of applicants, but not generally well qualified. At present the Board are inviting applications for the appointment of English master, and I believe from forty to fifty persons have applied. 816. Whenever a master is required there is notice given in the New Zealand and Australian papers, and ample time given for applications to be sent in ?—Tes. 817. With regard to the examination of the pupils, who appoints the examiners ?—The Board of Governors. 818. Do they get any remuneration for their services ? —Tes. I think they got £15 each this year. 819. Professor Cook.] Do they examine the whole school right through from top to bottom for £15 ? —They do it by printed papers. 820. But do they examine the lower as well as the upper school ? —I think so. 821. Dr. Hector.] Do they conduct the preliminary examination, or is that done by the headmaster ? —By the headmaster. 822. Is the standard for that examination fixed by the Board, or left to the option of the masters? —Left very much to the option of the masters. It is merely to see that the boys can read and write sufficiently well. 823. "The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion with regard to the propriety of having a general system of inspecting these grammar schools throughout the colony, and what the character and extent of the inspection should be ? —I have not thought on the subject at all. I doubt whether any system of inspection would be of very much value. 824. Do you believe that parents are generally satisfied with the extent and quality of the instruction afforded at the Grammar School ?—The best answer to that is, that the school is constantly on the increase, and has been for years steadily increasing. Eesults tell better than inspection reports as to whether a school is well conducted. 825. Could you inform the Commission what was the total income of the school for last year ? —i No. The Secretary would be able to tell you.

Judge Gillies.

Feb. 12,1879.

526. Has the income of the school been sufficient to maintain it in an efficient slate ?—I consider not. The income and expenditure are so closely balanced that we are obliged to cut and carve to keep down salaries, and we have been unable to get a building. Tho grant of £5,000 we received last session of Parliament has enabled us to call for tenders for a new building. 827. Dr. Hector.] Will that building cost more than £5,000? —"We estimate that it will cost about £9,000. 828. How do you propose to make up the deficiency ?—We calculate that we shall require to take the £4,000 from the accumulated moneys out on mortgage, and that by having this new building we shall obtain such an increased number of scholars aud boarders —for there is to be a boarding establishment as well—as will probably make up the difference in the loss of income. £4,000 represents about £300 ayear, and we reckon that there will be such an increase of scholars that the difference will be made up. Besides, we shall have no rent to pay. It costs us now more than £100 a year for rentals, which will be saved. 829. Professor Shand.] Is it intended to put the boarding establishment under the headmaster? —I do not think anything has been talked of or fixed about that. It is intended that one of the masters should take charge of it. The Board would select the most suitable. 830. Can you tell how many boarders will be accommodated? —I think there will be accommodation for forty to begin with, and I think it can be increased to seventy, but I am not sure without reference to the plans. 831. The Chairman.] TJp to the present time has there been any boarding establishment connected with the school ?—None whatever.* 832. Were there any difficulties in procuring a suitable site for the erection of the proposed new grammar school ? —There was great difficulty in getting a site. In fact we are not at ail satisfied with the site on which we shall be compelled to build, but it is the only one we can get at all suitable. There are only two acres, a space which does not allow of a sufficient playground. The only advantage is that it is near to the public recreation reserve in tho Albert Barracks, just across the road; otherwise the site is a great deal too small. The mode in which the site was obtained at all, was by a fight between myself as Superintendent aud Mr. Vogel, as to whether the province or the General Government were to have possession of the ground that had been used hut not set apart as a barrack reserve. I gazetted these two acres as a challenge, and had them set aside, and we had a dispute over it; but I managed to hold the site for the Grammar School. 833. Dr. JHector.] Is it part of the barrack reserve? —It was never properly reserved like the rest of the barrack site, but it was recognized as part. I discovered that it had never been set aside properly, and therefore I held it was waste lands of the Crown subject to provincial disposal. 834. And as Superintendent you made it a reserve for the Grammar School ? —.Yes. I got the Provincial Council to pass a resolution requesting me to set it aside, and it was accordingly reserved. It is the only site we can get now, but we certainly ought to have more moving space. 835. The Chairman.] I think you are aware that the Board of Education applied to the General Government for a portion of Government House grounds as a site ? —I am not aware. 836. I mean the Board of Education, before the Grammar School Board was established ?—I do not remember. 837. Dr. Hector.] Are you aware that a Bill was introduced into the Assembly for that purpose ? —I know that about five or six years ago I gave notice in the Assembly of a resolution to hand over the Government House in Auckland for the purposes of a college, but I found that the proposal was distasteful to the then Governor, and I withdrew the resolution. 838. The Chairman.] Are there any students from the country living in private boarding-houses ?— lam not aware. I know there are a number of day-scholars who come in from out-districts by rail. 839. Do you think the fees charged are reasonable ? —I think they are fair. If anything,l should say they were low. I compared them with fees charged in other places, and found they were generally less. I think they range in Wellington, Dunedin, Christchurch, and Nelson from eight to twelve guineas. In Nelson they are ten guineas. I know that we are the lowest. 840. What are the fees ? —Eight guineas a year. 841. Professor Cook.] Do you think the number attending the school would be seriously reduced if the fees were raised to ten guineas a year? —It would cause a great outcry. Ido notbelieve it would seriously affect tho attendance ultimately, but it would create a tremendous outcry. 842. Dr. Hector.] Do you think, if you had additional accommodation, that lowering the fees would increase the number of scholars?—l do not think I can fairly answer that. 843. The Chairman.] Do you think it would be desirable for the State to institute a free system of secondary education such as the primary system ? —I do not think it would be desirable. 844. I understand by that answer that you think, where there is a secondary education given, the parents should pay by the fee system? —I think so, for this reason: that what costs nothing is very little thought of. 845. Have any special scholarships been founded in connection with the school?—I do not think so —none except those scholarships that come from the Education Board. They were originally instituted by the Provincial Government when it had charge of the Grammar School, and have been continued ever since, having been increased a little by the Education Board. 840. Dr. Hector.] I understand that these scholarships are no source of gain to the Grammar School —that the education is given free ? —Yes. They are a source of loss, in fact. There are about fifteen, I think. 847. Professor Shand.] Is this the only school at which these scholarships are tenable ?—I am not aware of any other school. Ido not know whether the Board of Education grant scholarships to the Parnell Grammar School, but I think not. 848. The Chairman.] Are the pupils of the College and Grammar School admitted to compete for * Since the above evidence was given, the tenders for the new building were received, but proved to be so high that the boarding part was abandoned, and tenders accepted for the school buildings only, at a cost of £5,838. —J.G.

Judge Gillies.

Feb. 12, 1879.

H.—l

these scholarships ?—I think not. The scholarships are granted to boys from the district schools— the inferior schools. 849. Do you think the Grammar School has derived any advantage from being affiliated to the New Zealand University ? —lt did at one time. Affiliation with the University was of considerable use when we got certain funds from the University for a year or two ; and it encouraged a number of the more advanced pupils to continue their studies and to go in for University examinations. It created, in fact, a desire for a higher class of education, and encouraged parents to keep their boys at school longer, with a view to their obtaining a superior education. I know that has been the effect in several instances, and probably the headmaster would be able to give you more definite information on that point. 850. The money grants having ceased, is the school still benefitted through being affiliated to the University ?—That I cannot say. 851. Professor Cook.] Can you tell us how the grant of £300 was applied ?—I do not remember. 852. When the Auckland College and Grammar School applied for affiliation, I think you conducted the negotiations ?—-Tes. 853. The application is signed by you as Chairman of the Commissioners?— There was a Board of of which the Superintendent was ex officio Chairman, and in that capacity I signed the application. 854. You are not aware whether the £300 was given on the distinct understanding that it should be largely used for the teaching of natural and physical science in the school ?—I do not remember. I know that there was an effort made to teach those subjects at the Grammar School. At one time Mr. Kirk taught botany, and one of the masters taught chemistry, and I know that we had a lot of apparatus for teaching physical science. Ido not think it is carried on now, as there is no room. 855. Has the withdrawal of tho £300 had any effect on the efficiency of the school?—lean scarcely answer that, because, until the present year, I have not been intimately acquainted with the working of the school for three or four years previously. I have not been connected with the school for the previous three or four years, and consequently cannot compare its present efficiency with its condition at that time. 856. The Chairman.] Do you think the New Zealand University has assumed the best form, considering the circumstances of the colony, it being merely an examining body ? —-It seems to me that that is the only practical mode of having a University in New Zealand : that is, to have a purely examining and degree-conferring body, with affiliated colleges at the various centres of population as teaching bodies. 857. Prom your general knowledge of the colony, do you think Auckland is giving a fair education in the higher branches as compared with Otago and Canterbury ? —I cannot say. I have no means of comparing the education given in those different places. I know that in Otago and Canterbury there are much larger funds devoted to higher education, and that they have large staffs of professors, teachers, and others, which we have not in Auckland. 858. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Supposing funds were available, do you think it would be desirable to have instituted here a college for higher education, as distinct from a secondary school ? —I should think it very desirable that a college should be instituted, but that it should be in connection with the Grammar School —that, whilst it should be a separate institution, still it should be so connected that the curriculum would be a sort of continuous one from the Grammar School on to the college : not a separate and independent institution altogether, because the one would assist and be a feeder to the other. 859. Dr. Wallis.] Do you know any instance of there being a college and grammar school so connected ? —That seemed to me to be the idea in the affiliation of all these institutions to the New Zealand University—the "Wellington College, the Nelson College, and the Auckland Grammar School —■ because, although the Nelson College, for instance, is called a college, it is a similar institution to our Grammar School, with a similar curriculum and similar studies, and it supplies no higher education than the Grammar School. BGO. Professor Sale.] Tour idea of all of them was that in time they should get established a superior institution in connection with their own ? —Yes, to become in reality what they are now called —colleges. 861. To grow into colleges ? —Yes, with a grammar school below attached to them. 862. Professor Cook.] You think, then, that they should become institutions something like King's College, London, with a school below them ?—I am not acquainted with the constitution of that institution. 863. Dr. Hector.] Should the management of the secondary or grammar school part be in direct relation to the University, or be managed, like the primary schools, by independent governing Boards ? —I think they ought to be in connection with the University, but with independent governing Boards. 864. Professor Cook.] But in a place where two or three grammar schools already existed, how would you apply the constitution you propose ?—Of course I have not thought out the matter carefully so as to devise a detailed plan, but I should think that, in a place where there were several grammar schools, there could be one college having close relation to them all, and they might draft their best scholars into the college. 865. Professor Drown.] This arrangement, I suppose, is intended to prevent any antagonism between the higher institution and the lower ? —Not only that, but there is a difficulty which has been felt here, and I have no doubt has been felt also in Otago to some extent, the difficulty of getting students for the University ; and it is only by leading them on and encouraging them from the lower schools, so that they are brought to look forward to finishing their education in a college or University, that this difficulty can be met. 866. Professor Shand.] "Would you contemplate these colleges ultimately growing into Universities, or would you approve of a single University for New Zealand, as an examining body ? —I have always held very strongly that the University should be purely an examining and degree-conferring, body, having these colleges affiliated to it, they beiDg colleges of the University. 6—H. 1.

Judge Gillies,

Feb. 12,1879.

S.-l

567. Dr. Hector.] Tou are now having regard to the circumstances of the colony ? —Tes ; because, if you do not do that, this colony has so many different centres of population that you will want a University for each. Otago has its University, and wants to be separate ; Christchurch will want its University, and so will "Wellington and Auckland ; aud to have all these Universities conferring degrees would bring the whole thing into disrepute. 868. Professor Shand.] I do not mean now, but looking to the future ? —Of course, if the colony grows big enough we may require more than one University. 869. "When the population increases would you contemplate these colleges ultimately growing into Universities ? —I do not know. It would he a long time before the population so increased. I maybe wrong, but, in my opinion, if the Otago High School had been more closely connected and allied with the University, there would probably have been more students at the Otago University ; and here there is not scope for two or more high schools. That is to say, supposing you instituted another high school at Onehunga, there would not be sufficient population to support it. Tou could not get forty or fifty scholars at the utmost in that district who would go in for higher education. The place is not big enough for more than one at present, but you could certainly contemplate that in the course of a few years you would require more than one. 870. Dr. Wallis.] At present there must be forty thousand people on the isthmus : surely such a population would furnish scholars for more than one high school? —I doubt it very much. 871. Professor Sale.] I understand that what you think would be the best state of things for Auckland would be that there should be a college as in Otago and Canterbury, which college should be grown out of the Auckland Grammar School ? —Tes ; that I take to be the object of the original trust. 872. Do you think there is a better prospect of such a college coming into existence out of the materials furnished by the present Grammar School, than if it wero started as a separate institution with the Grammar School remaining a grammar school ?—lf there were plenty of funds I think that a college would succeed better by growing out of the Grammar School than by being started as a separate institution. 873. And that the Grammar School should gradually drop the Grammar School portion of tho work? —No. I should take, for instance, the higher forms of boys at the Grammar School—those who have advanced to a certain extent of knowledge—and have them put in a separate portion of the building or under separate tuition, and form a college. 874. Professor Ulrich.] It would be similar, in fact, to the Grammar Schools, or Gymnasia, in Germany, where the students that are highest go to the University ? —Precisely ; that is my idea. 875. Professor Cook.] But in the college you contemplate, would the tuition be given by a different staff of teachers from those in the Grammar School ? —Oh, decidedly. Tou would have to have a higher class of men, and pay them better than the masters in the Grammar School, where, of course, the work would be of a lower class. 876. I understand that you do not altogether approve of the affiliation of the secondary schools to the University. —of combining, in the same institution, University work and grammar-school work ? —Not combining the work, certainly ; but what I have been trying to explain is, that the upper portion of the school ought to be doing University work, or college work. 877. But at the present time there are a large number of institutions affiliated to the University, which, as you stated just now, are only grammar schools —Ihey may be called colleges, but they are in fact grammar schools?— The greater part of their work is grammar-school work. Only a few of the higher boys are really doing college work. 878. "Would you like to see that state of things changed ?—I should like to see it improved by having more of the college work encouraged. 879. Professor ZUrich.] Tour idea is that there should be, as it were, small colleges, under one University ? —Precisely. BSO. Dr. Hector.] Tou would think it fair that any profit arising from the teaching of the junior classes should be applied to carrying on higher education belonging to a University course?—We find it so here —that the junior classes pay and the senior do not. 881. Dr. Wallis.] At the same time, do not the junior teachers receive small salaries as compared with the other teachers?—Of course. It does not-require a man of such high attainments to teach junior classes. 882. Those who teach the junior scholars bring income to the institution and receive a small salary, while the others receive large salaries ? —Tes. 883. Dr. Hector.] Is that the nature of the advantage which you see in combining the higher college course of education with the lower grammar-school course ? —I was not looking at it in a pecuniary light at all. I was looking at it in the light of how best to encourage higher education. 884. But do you mean that you would have in that way tho means of employing masters for higher education whom you could not otherwise maintain ? —No ; my idea was not with the view to expense at all. It was looking to the harmony of the thing—that the masters in the grammar school for instance should be virtually part and parcel of the college —that they should be, as it were, the lower portion of the college, working in harmony with the masters and professors in the college, there being a harmonious system of education leading up to the college instead of each man taking his own way. 885. Then you do not merely approve of the present arrangement by which the University is an examining body, with its affiliated institutions partly in the nature of grammar schools and partly colleges—you do not approve of this merely as a temporary expedient in the circumstances of the colony, but you think it best in principle, and even if the circumstances were different?—lt seems to me the best in any case. It is the only practicable form of University in the present circumstances of the colony, unless you are going to make the degrees just as valueless as some of the German or American degrees are. 886. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou would not wish to see secondary schools affiliated to the University simply as secondary schools, but only as portions of institutions each of which would embrace both a college and a grammar school? —Precisely; the upper portion would be the college, and the lower portion the grammar school; and the college might be affiliated to the University, but not the lower portion.

Judge Gillies.

Feb. 12,1879.

H.—l.

887. Professor Shand.] Are you aware what proportion of the pupils of the Auckland Grammar School go forward to University work ?—I do not remember. BSS. Would it be as much as 5 per cent. ? —I think it is very much more than that—of the upper school. 889. I mean of all the pupils?—l do not know. The large mass of pupils are iv the junior branch of the school. I think there would be from sto 10 per cent. 890. .Assuming that about 5 or 10 per cent, go forward to University work, would you have the whole curriculum of the school laid out so as to suit the studies of this small proportion of the school, and not to suit the others ? I put this question because you seemed to contemplate that the studies of the school should be directed entirely to preparing for the University or the Upper College.— _\ ro, not directed entirely to that purpose, but that they should be harmonious with that purpose. 891. I wish to direct your attention to this fact: that, in the secondary schools generally, at least 90 per cent, of the pupils will finish their education there; and that the curriculum of the school should be directed to providing as good an education as possible for the 90 rather than the 10 per cent. ?—ISTo doubt, if the two are antagonistic ; but Ido not see that there is any antagonism. The 90 per cent, can be taught up to a certain standard, and, having that standard, the 10 per cent, can rise 'into the college, and get still higher education. 892. There may not be any direct antagonism : still I think, as a matter of fact, it is usually acknowledged that different courses of study have to be laid down for these two sections of pupils; and, if it is the case that only 10 per cent, at the very utmost can be expected to go forward to tho University, it does not seem very desirable to have so close a connection between the secondary school and the college as you lay down ?—I do not understand that there need be, or ought to be, any difference in the curriculum for a boy who simply wants to finish at the grammar school, and that for a boy who goes on beyond to the college. The difficulty is to encourage parents to allow their children to spend the time necessary to enable them to go on to a college education; audit is only by the personal influence of masters, and strong influence brought to bear upon the boys themselves, as well as upon their parents, that you can get pupils to go on. 893. Professor Sale.] Then I understand your idea is that, say, the small upper form of the Auckland College, as it at present exists, should gradually grow into a superior college, and be separated from the other by being affiliated to the University ? —Precisely. 89-1. And that the lower part of the school should remain a grammar school and cease to be affiliated ?— Yes. 895. Professor Drown.] "Would you allow more than one such institution to be affiliated in one town ? —I think so. If a town is large enough to support two or more I see no reason why it should not. 896. Professor Sale.] Does that answer refer to the present time, or to the future ? —I mean the future : at present there is no room for them. 897. Professor Cook.] Supposing there was a town here double the size of Auckland, it might easily support two or three grammar schools, but would not the expense of supporting a college in the sense in which you use the term " college " be too great to admit of two or three such institutions being established, one in connection with each school? —What I mean is that, in the future, if a town is large enough to have three or four grammar schools, the} 7" ought all to be affiliated with one college, until it gets too large, and then there might be two or more. 898. Professor Drown.] Would you affiliate those grammar schools which had not a superior or collegiate department ? —I should say not. I should reserve affiliation for those doing real collegiate work. 899. Dr. Hector.] Is it your idea that there is more chance of getting boys to take a University course if it is a prolongation of their school life than if it is a matter of their leaving school and going to a college ? —Precisely; you get influences brought to bear, on the parents and on the boys themselves in such cases that you would not get otherwise. 900. Professor Shand.] Would you like to see the same connection between primary and secondary schools ?—To some extent. The idea of giving scholarships in grammar or high schools to boys from primary schools is with that very object, as I understand, and to encourage the best boys to go up from the primary to the grammar school. 901. Is there not the same bond of connection now between the secondary schools and the University in tiie scholarships leading to the University? —.No, for this reason: that most parents desire to give their children a better education than they can get in a primary school, and generally send them to a secondary school if they can ; but there is no desire to scud them on to a college, and that taste for higher education has to be educated aud cultivated. 902. Dr. Wallis.] Tou spoke of the growth of high schools into colleges: would this mode of growth be by establishing professorships of classics, mathematics, and various branches of science ? —lt does not matter -what name you call them by, whether professors or not. For instance, at the Wellington College they created Mr. Kirk into Professor Kirk, and in other places they are called simple Misters. 903. Professor Drown.] Would you establish a separate chair specially devoted to a single subject, with all the endowments and moneys arising therefrom specially applicable to that chair ? —Whenever there was sufficient demand for it. For instance, at first you might have only twenty or thirty boys, and of course you would require few masters, and each master would have to take a wide range of subjects. Tou would probably have the same master or professor, whatever he might be called, to teach classics and mathematics. In the course of time there might be sufficient scholars to support separate masters for different subjects. 901. Dr. Wallis.'] Would all these professors be under the headmaster? —Xo. I am not speaking of the Auckland institution at all. lam speaking generally. 905. I mean in the institution you are speaking of—when the two are joined together ? —There would have to be a head of the college who would have the general supervision not only of the collegiate work, but also of the lower school.

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906. Dr. Hector.] Perhaps Dr. "Wallis wished to ascertain whether you consider that the teachers iv these affiliated institutions should be directly under the control of the New Zealand University, or under the local college ? —-I do not see why the University should have any control over them. I should say that, as the examining and degree-granting body, it would have no occasion to interfere with the management of the college and grammar school; that would be under the Board of Governors. 907. Professor Ulrich.] You would not be in favour of creating two colleges, each with a governing body and a Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor?—These officials are merely part of the old-world rubbish. Tou might safely do away with them, and simplify the thing. 90S. Professor Drown.] Do you think that those higher teachers in the collegiate department should have the same relation to the head of the institution as the masters in the lower school have, and be liable to be dismissed at his recommendation ?—Certainly not. They would be directly responsible to the Board of Governors. 909. And they would have, I suppose, a different tenure of office from the masters of the lower school ? —Probably so ; I have not thought out the details. It is to be presumed that these professors would have a different tenure from the teachers. I think the tenure of office of the teachers is three months' notice. 910. Tou would not get good men out from Home for the higher collegiate department on those terms?—Of course not. 911. The Chairman.] Can you say whether there was any attempt made by the Grammar School to establish evening classes ? —Twice or three times we endeavoured to do so. 912. With what success ?—A failure in all cases. 913. Professor Shand.] What was the object of those evening classes?— The object was to carry out the trust. One of the trusts in the deed is that there should be evening classes, aud, in order to carry that out, evening classes for history, Latin, and mathematics were established. 914. Were the teachers of these classes masters of the Grammar School ? —Tes. We could not afford to pay separate masters. AYe tried them just as an experiment, to see whether there was a demand, and we found there was not. 915. Professor Cook.] In the application for affiliation, it is stated, "Arrangements are being made for the opening, in connection with the College, of evening classes for the instruction of young men in the several branches of learning included in tho curriculum of the University of New Zealand. The number of lectures to bo delivered during the year, and tho subjects of lectures, will depend upon the requirements of tho University Council." Did you seek, by the establishment of these evening classes, to carry out the terms of your affiliation with the University—was that the way in which you sought to prepare your candidates ? —No ; that was a separate and distinct thing. It was supposed by many people that there were a lot of young men who were in business, and would not care to go to school, but who would like to carry on their studies to a higher degree, and who might be encouraged by these evening classes to go in for University education. But we found it would not succeed. 916. Professor Shand.] Tou say the experiment was made more than once? —It was made twice, if not three times. With regard to the last question by Professor Cook, I may say that these evening classes were in addition to the University work done in tbe upper forms of the school. 917. In all cases those classes failed for want of support on the part of those who were expected to take advantage of them? —They generally commenced with a number of students, but the attendance gradually fell off until there were only a few. The headmaster will probably be able to give you the reason better than I can. 918. Dr. Hector.] Were there any lectures established here in connection with the Museum ? — No regular lectures were established. 919. Is the Museum supported as a public institution ?—The support given is purely voluntary. 920. Has it any endowment ? —No. 921. It is open to the public ? —Tes, free, daily. We got a gift of the site from the Provincial Government, and then we got a vote of the Assembly of, I think, £2,000 in aid of the building. We raised upwards of £2,000 by private subscription, and the institution is entirely supported by voluntary contributions. 922. Tou get no annual grant from the Government ? —No funds whatever. 923. Is there any course of instruction given—any lectures ? —No, there has not been hitherto. 924. Does the Museum building cover the whole ground ? —No; there is room for a building twice as large. 925. In the event of a school of science, or a technical school, being established, could it be located there ? —Tes ; there is abundant room. 926. Would the site be suitable as far as position is concerned? —I should think so. 927. Is there any officer connected with the Museum whose services could be utilized in connection with a school of science ? —The only officer we have is the Curator, Mr. Cheeseman, who is a good botanist. 928. Has he instructed in science in any branch, or held any position as an instructor—as a lecturer at the Grammar School, for instance ? —I thiuk he was lecturer either in natural science or botany. 929. Do not his lectures form the ground of the Grammar School maintaining its position as an affiliated institution to the University ? —I do not know. 930. It is necessary, as a condition of affiliation, that science should be taught as one of the branches ?—Mr. Cheeseman lectures at the Church of England Grammar School, I think. 931. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Supposing such a college as you have contemplated were established in Auckland, do j rou think it would be a good plan to bring the Museum into some organic relation with the college for educational purposes ? —lt might, if, of course, the Government found funds. At present the Museum is in just the same sort of struggle as the Grammar School for want of funds. We can only afford to pay Mr. Cheeseman a miserable £100 a year or so, and have very little money to get cases and books. I forgot to mention, in reference to the Museum, that we get a small grant

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every year from the Government —a portion of some library fund —which is to be devoted to books, and which is spent entirely in purchasing books for the library. 932. Professor Shand.] Do you know the amount of this grant ? —I think last year it was about £90. But of course that is not available for the general expenses of the Institute : it is specially applicable to the purchase of books. 933. Do you know whether those are the only funds available for keeping up a public library in Auckland? —The only other public library there is is the Mechanics' Institute, and that, I think, is principally supported by voluntary subscriptions, and open only to subscribers. 934. Be v. W. J. JHabens.] If a public library were instituted in connection with a college such as has been spoken of this morning, do you think the library that belonged to the late Provincial Council might be made available to furnish part of the supply of books ?—I should think so. It has always been the view of those who have taken an interest in the Institute—members of the Institute—to enlarge the library connected with the Museum. It is the nucleus of a very good scientific library, and there are some very valuable scientific works in it. At present the Provincial Council library is deposited in the Museum. The Institute has no right to it, but it is there, and is open to the public free. 935. The Chairman.] With reference to the general-knowledge examination required of law students, do you think it would be desirable to change the examining body from the Judges of the Supreme Court to the New Zealand University ? —lt was changed, I think, by the Act of last session. There was an Act passed last year by which law societies were to conduct the examinations. I think that was contemplated. At present the rules made by the Judges provide that they accept the certificate of any University, including the University of New Zealand, or the certificate of the senior Civil Service examiners, as equivalent to the general-knowledge examination. 936. But, as a matter of opinion, do you think it would be well to require law students to take, say, the degree of Bachelor of Arts before admission to the Bar ? —I think it would possibly not be a bad plan. 937. Professor Shand.] And Bachelor of Laws, say? —Tes; I think it might be a very good thing. Only I would point out that, if anything of that sort were done, you would require to have these college institutions in the different parts of the country, because you would not get men to go and keep terms at the University. 938. And you would have systematic instruction in law as part of the duty of these institutions ? —No, not in law. Ido not think they would learn much law in these institutions. 939. Dr. Hector.] Tou mean for the general-knowledge part of the course ? —Tes. The student must get his law iv a lawyer's office. 940. Professor Shand.] Tou said you thought it would be desirable that students should be required to pass the degree of LL.B. in the University?—l do not think ordinary law students should be required to pass such a severe examination as a condition of practice. All that is necessary is that they should have a thorough English education —a liberal education. 941. Professor Cook.] But do you not think it desirable that men who practise as barristers should have some philosophical knowledge of their profession, as well as of the practice in Courts and of conveyancing? I mean that they should understand something about the broad general principles of jurisprudence, constitutional history, and perhaps iioman law? —No doubt. They would not be of much use as barristers if they did not. 942. Would they learu that sort of thing in a lawyer's office ? —Tes ; they are hound to read it up. There are many who do not. There are many offices in which there is no trouble taken with their pupils, and where they simply griud as much work out of the students as they can, instead of grinding law into them. But in proper offices the pupils have to read regularly and steadily both constitutional law and lioman law. 943. But do you not think they would be much aided in that if they attended systematic lectures ?— I do not know. 944. Dr. Hector.] Do you think a law degree should be a condition of practice either as a barrister or a solicitor, or as both ?—No. 945. Do you think that a degree, the same as the B.A. degree, or equivalent, should be substituted for the present examination in general law? —If the B.A. degree represents twice as much work as the senior Civil Service examination, I think it is too stiff. The senior Civil Service examination is about the average examination in general knowledge for a law student. 916. Professor Shand.] That is, for solicitors —solicitors and barristers ? —Tes, of course ; at present the two are together. 947. Would you be iv favour of instituting a higher examination for the higher branch of the profession ?—There is a higher. There is a much more severe examination prescribed for a barrister. 948. In the general knowledge ?—Tes. 949. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can one who passes the solicitors' examination, and enters as a solicitor, become a barrister without passing the special barristers' examination ? —Tes. Any one who has been a pupil of a barrister for three years can come up for his examination as a barrister, which is much more severe than in the case of a man who has been five years at work and has passed his generalknowledge examination within the first two years. 950. Professor Cook.] Have you formed auy opinion as to the standard of the New Zealand University for the B.A. degree ? —I cannot say that I have formed any very definite opinion. I have seen the papers, and I have seen the work of one of the students who took the B.A. degree last year— Mr. Rattray, my secretary. He was educated at the Auckland College and Grammar School, and then took to law, and at the same time he worked for his B.A. degree. Looking at the work required, I should say it was fairly stiff. 951. Professor Ulrich.] Do you think it would be desirable to establish technical schools, agricultural colleges, mining schools, schools of science, and so on? —I think it would be very desirable indeed. I should like to see more technical education than is given. It seems to be thought that

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Judge Gillies. Feb. 12, 1879.

every boy should be taught the same thing and then turned out of school. It does not matter what his future career is to be, he is to have just the same education. Instead of that, it seems to me that the education ought to be more varied, and suited to the intended future career of a boy. 952. "Would you be in favour of having, in the grammar schools or secondary schools, an arrangement by which boys could, on the one hand, be trained for the University, aud, on the other, go iuto technical schools aud be taught more practical science ? —Certainly. Let the parents have the choice ; they know what they intend their children for. 953. Dr. Hector.] Do you think the bifurcation should take place inside the grammar school course or at its completion? —That I do not know. 951. The Chairman.] It is proposed to establish what is called a Convocation in connection with the University of New Zealand, and, under the law as it at present stands, those who have ad eundem degrees are to be excluded from participating in the privileges of that body. Have you formed any opinion as to whether it is right to exclude ad eundem graduates from the Convocation ?—I have not considered the question. 955. Professor Sale.] Have you considered what would be the effect if the New Zealand University were to give up having affiliated colleges altogether, and simply confer degrees upon examination, letting the students prepare themselves for the degrees in tho best way they could, and letting the colleges provide the best teaching they could all over the country to enable them to do so, but having no other connection with the University than as preparatory institutions for degrees ? Tou are aware that the London University for years had affiliated institutions and discontinued them, and that at the present time it requires no affiliation?—l did not know that. Practically the affiliation in New Zealand is now nothing but a name. 95G. Professor Shand.] There is a restriction, and students must keep terms at some affiliated institution ? —Yes: that I think is a mistake. I approve of a free examination. Let any one who comes to the University for a degree be examined ; it does not matter to the University where he gets his education if he is prepared to stand the examination. 957. Professor Sale.] Then your answer would be that you would be in favour of affiliation ceasing really ? —Tes ; I really do not understand what is the use of it now. 958. It extends a sort of protection?—Tes, but there is nothing else; and even on that ground I see no occasion for affiliation. 959. Professor Cook.] Do you not think that the University should encourage its students to attend a systematic course of instruction —that a large portion of the benefit which a student receives is from the instruction he gets by way of lectures, and that knowledge so acquired, and the mixing with, fellow-students, is likely to be more lasting than knowledge acquired from books for the purpose of passing an examination?— The associations may be better for him, and have a beneficial effect on him otherwise; but for the University purpose —for the sake of taking a degree and having a handle, or rather tail, to his name —all he should be required to do is to pass his examination. As to the real education, that is a different thing. 9GO. I think the University should bo looked upon as an institution which provides real education ? —Tour opinion and mine differ as to what a University ought to be. I consider that a University ought not to bo a teaching body. 901. Dr. Wallis.] Do you think that the general knowledge required of gentlemen studying for barristers or solicitors ought to be higher than it is at present ?—I do. 902. Dr. Hector.] Could law students who propose to practise the profession give up three years to a University course ? —No. 903. Consistently with the performance of the preliminary duties ? —No ; they would not think of doing so. The Very Eev. 11. J. Fynes, having made solemn affirmation, was examined. 901. The Chairman.] I think you are now the head of the Eoman Catholic body in this province, Father F ynes ? —I am merely the deputy. Bishop Morau is the administrator of this diocese, and has been so for the last eighteen months. I have power, as deputy, to act. 905. I suppose you can give us information with regard to the endowments held by the Eoman Catholic body? —As far as I possibly can, lam quite willing to do so. Tou will perhaps allow me to say that I was not connected with the administration of the diocese until the year 1874, although I have been constantly concerned in deliberations as to special subjects; and consequently cannot give that full information, in detail, which you might expect, inasmuch as I was not made acquainted with the nature of the endowments, or anything whatsoever in connection with this special intercourse between the diocese and the Government, until Bishop Croke's departure in 1874, when he hurriedly called upon me to take over the affairs of the diocese. Upon that occasion he handed me only the titledeeds, but no papers, no books, and no records in connection with these endowments. Consequently I have now to give information which I have heard from others. I cannot blame him for not having given records, and for reasons which I shall now proceed to explain. Up to 1805, the objects of the trusts wero duly carried out at the North Shore and Eangiaohia, to the best of my belief, according to the limited means at the disposal of the Bishop for the time being; but after that date, on the ground of economy, Bather Tinay, the then manager of tho North Shore institution, was directed by the Bishop to proceed to Eangiaohia, and, by the conjoint operation of the two establishments, to endeavour to carry out one efficiently. They were each too poor to be carried out separately in an efficient manner, and it was thought that by putting' the two together it would succeed better. Eangiaohia was more likely to be successful than St. Mary's, owing to the facility for getting pupils, and also the property there being more valuable. Shortly after 1805 a fire unfortunately broke out at Eangiaohia, which not only burnt out the priest from his house and home, but destroyed his books and all his substance ; and inasmuch as he had been the Principal of the North Shore institution, whence he removed to Eangiaohia, I presume he took all books and papers with him for his own guidance,

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and, I suppose, moreover, for the guardianship of the same. I have been looking through the books and papers in my possession connected with the diocese, and I have fallen in with no papers that have assisted me in preparing for my appearance before you with the information which you called upon me to give, and which lam fully prepared to give, as far as I can. Tou have taken me, therefore, unpreparedly and unsuspectingly. Should I meet with any information after this, I shall be fully prepared to forward it, and to give it up ; but I am not prepared, I believe, with that information which you might expect. I shall, however, be happy to give any information in answer to questions. 960. If there is any other person connected with your Church who could give the information, perhaps you would refer the Commission to that person? —I do not think you will get information upon which you would be more prepared to rely, or which would better acquaint you with affairs generally, than that which you will get from myself. 967. What is the position of the endowment at the North Shore at present ? Is a school being carried on there ?—There has been no school carried on there since Bishoj) Croko left in 1874 ; but the endowment has been utilized. I may say that the lioman Catholic endowments compare very unfavourably with other endowments. Ido not mention this from any invidious or envious motive ; but the endowments are so very poor that we alone can do very little towards carrying out the objects of the trusts ; and our endowments have been far more largely subsidized by ourselves than has been the case with the endowments of other religious bodies. They have been subsidized by moneys from the Propagation of the Faith Society in Europe, which assists Ihis and other dioceses, and also by contributions. Now I have received none of those moneys since Bishop Croke left. He was supposed to have received those moneys to enable him to bring out clergymen, and to carry out other affairs in connection with this diocese, and, when he came back, also to subsidize the institution at the North Shore, and also that at Eangiaohia. However, he has not returned, and from month to month up to the present time the appointment of a Bishop has been spoken of, but that appointment has not taken place yet, although expected every mail. Therefore I have not received any of those moneys which would be devoted to carry out the objects I have indicated. They amount to a large sum, and will be at the disposal of Dr. Croke's successor for the purposes mentioned. Consequently I have not been able to reorganize the institution at the North Shore. But I have been making preparations to effect that object. The ground there is extremely poor. It does not yield more than £40 a year. It brought in last year about £100, and this year about £90, but it was by a sort of casual providence. There are 370 acres. Owing to its inaccessibility, it cannot be used for building sites, or made use of like St. Stephen's, or the Three Kings. The land is similar to the clay soil of Howick. 9GB. I understand that it is all leased? —No, it is let from year to year. There are no buildings on it at present, except little detached buildings used by the Natives. It is pretty well fenced, and there are about 300 acres of it under a sort of grass which could not be recommended for very great use. There are about 250 acres let, but not on lease —-most of it from year to j'ear. There is only one portion on lease, and that is for seven or eight years. About £200 has been realized from this letting since Dr. Croke's departure in 1874. It would not sell at a higher rate than about £7 an acre. Its actual annual income would be about £40. Last year it produced about £100. Out of the £200, £20 has been given, in pursuance of the terms of the trust deed, to St. Mary's Orphanage Industrial School, Ponsonby. 969. Is the building known as St. Mary's close to the lake?— The building does not stand on the endowment; it stands on freehold property. But I believe that when the building was put up it was intended that it should work with the endowment; and I believe it was put on private property from no other motive than that of convenience. It is more convenient to the water, and adjacent to a stone quarry, from which material was obtained for building it. • 970. Professor Cook.] The building was erected with money supplied by the Government ?—ln part, and by money supplied by the Society I have just referred to for the Propagation of the Faith. I believe about £1,700 were given by the Government, and the rest supplied from the funds of that Society. That was in the time of Bishop Viard. 971. Is the College building of stone?— Yes, and is in existence now. Before long we shall have, I hope, a flourishing place, when the expected funds are in hand. It would take an extra £1,000 to attempt to do anything there ; and, had it not been for the delay in receiving letters of administration since the Bishop's departure, there would, I believe, have been something effected by this time. I hoped Bishop Croke might have been able to effect something permanent when he came. What he was enabled to do, however, was not sufficient to resuscitate the place, nor have I received funds, from that day to this, sufficient to enable me to reopen the institution as it should be. 972. The Chairman.'] I understand that at present the building is not used for school purposes? —Not at present. 973. And the only income you have to maintain such a school is £40 a year, derived from the leasing of the land ? —That is all. 974. What is being done with the rentals you receive ? Are they reserved for school purposes hereafter? —They are being reserved by myself for school purposes. lam responsible for them. At the first opportunity that occurs, should I remain in office, I propose to devote the money to assist in reopening the institution, and to carry out the objects of the trust. It would be impossible to do so at present, and it has been impossible since Bishop Croke's departure, because I have had no other funds with which to administer the affairs of the entire diocese except those arising from St. Patrick's Cathedral, in Auckland. 975. Is all the ground leased ? —There is only one portion leased. The rest is only let from year to year or month to month, just as I can get parties to take it up. 976. Is the land lying waste? —No, it is all being used. There are some Maoris living there who use a portion of it, and for that use they keep the fence in order. None of the land is lying idle. 977. To whom is it leased ? —I believe there are four or five tenants, each having a certain area. It is cut up into small sections. 978. Do you thiuk the rent derived from it is a fair rent?—No, Ido not think it is: still it is as

Very Mev. M. J. Fynes.

Feb. 12, 1879,

good as can be got. It is not a fair rent if tenants could be got who would take a real interest in the land, and endeavour to work it; but they do not do so at present. The time has not come, nor is it justifiable to expect it. It is a difficult place to get to. Roads are being made to it now, and I believe the time is just coming when benefit may accrue to the institution from the land. But heretofore it has been of but little benefit, except when a body of teachers lived there and worked the ground themselves. 979. Dr. Wallis.] Is the original trust deed in existence, and can it be produced ? —I presume so. I think it is under my care. The papers I referred to as having been burnt in the fire at Rangiaohia were the actual accounts and the records of the internal management of the institution, such as a Principal would keep. 980. What is the value of the stone building ? —lt is valued at £2,000. It cost something like that. It was very much improved during the time the school was held there ; but that was done more at the expense of the Catholic body than at the expense of the Government. 981. Did the £2,000 which was employed in constructing the building come from the General Government, or from the Catholic body ? —About £1,700 came from the Government, and about £300 from the Catholic body. 982. Is the house known as the priest's house situated on the property ?—There was no separate priest's house; the priest lived in the College. 983. I mean the house which people call the priest's house, as you turn round to Barry's house ?— That has been put up since at the expense of the Catholic body. That is quite separate from this institution, and when the institution was being carried on the priest did not reside in that house. 984. The Gliairman.~\ In whom does the legal estate of that building vest at present —you said it was erected on freehold property?—l suppose in the Roman Catholic Bishop of Auckland. 985. Is it devoted to educational purposes ? —lt is intended to be so applied. That is what it is being reserved for. I myself for the last month have been on the look-out to get a married couple to take charge of the place, the husband to be the teacher, and to institute a school there. 986. It is empty at present ? —Tes, and has been empty since Bishop Croke went away —empty for want of means. I have got now about £200 in hand, and I have been looking out for a competent master for the last month or six weeks, with whom I shall spend this £200, and when that goes 1 must close up shop again if I cannot get other means. 987. What number of pupils do you expect to get if you open the school ?—I am afraid a very small number at present —unless children of other denominations, as well as Catholics, attend: in fact that is the way in which most of our schools are kept up. 988. Then it would not be conducted exclusively as a Roman Catholic school ? —lf the objects of the trust wei'e carried out it would be, and ought to be. 989. But I understand that if you opened the school you would admit children of all denominations? —I should at present, and until I had a clear understanding that I had funds in my hands —a clear understanding with the Government. If the Government wished me to have all denominations, I should do so. I would ask them to assist me in carrying out the objects of the trust, as they did heretofore. On that ground there would be an expectation of capitation money, which would enable the institution to be carried on in accordance with the objects of the trust. 990. You are fully aware, I suppose, of the terms of the trust ? They are as follow :" in trust nevertheless and for the use or towards the support and maintenance of the said school, so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to youth educated therein and maintained thereat" ? —Tes ; those are the terms of the trust as fixed by Sir George Grey in 1850. That would imply that the pupils should be all Roman Catholics, for it is not to be supposed that I would teach tenets contrary to those I have faith in. 991. The preamble of the grant is as follows: " Whereas a school hath been established by the Government in the Parish of Takapuna, in the suburbs of Auckland, under the superintendence of the Bishop of the Roman Catholic Church at Auckland, for the education of children of our subjects of both races, and of the children of other poor and destitute persons, being inhabitants of the islands in the Pacific Ocean." I understand that the poverty of the endowment will not enable you to carry out the trust at present?— That is the case. 992. And that really the trust is not carried out on that account? —On that ground, and that ground alone. 993. Professor Shand.] How long has this school been discontinued ? —Formerly it was discontinued about 1865, when the Principal left the North Shore and went to Rangiaohia, and joined the pupils of one school with the pupils of the other, and by joining the two he had a good school at Rangiaohia, until the fire occurred which destroyed the property, and the Maoris about the same time became discontented owing to the war, and the pupils dwindled away until at last the school was obliged to be closed. That was about the year 1872 or 1873. 994. Can you tell how many pupils attended the school before 1865 ?■—lt was extremely well attended then, but I have no records or papers. As far as my information will enable me to speak, however, I know it gave satisfaction. 995. Were all the pupils Roman Catholics ? —I suppose they were ; they were Native children. 996. Dr. Sector.'] Are you now talking of Rangiaohia ?—Tes. 997. Professor Shand.] Before 1865 were there many pupils attending the school at the North Shore? —An average number. I was not here then, and had no connection with the place. 998. Tou think they were Roman Catholic pupils ?—I do. 999. Was the endowment at that time sufficient to maintain the school ? —No; the endowment has never been sufficient. 1000. How were the additional funds supplied ? —From the funds that were placed at the disposal of the Roman Catholic Bishop by the Society for the Propagation of the Faith, which funds I ought to have had the use of since 1874, but which as yet I have not received. 1001. Professor Wrick.] If you had power to sell the land do you think you would get a higher

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income from the capital than what you receive now as rent ?—I cannot say, but if I had my way I would expend money on the place, and expect to have a flourishing educational establishment there before long. I would not sell it, because far greater benefit would accrue to the institution, if the members worked it themselves on the spot. Were it sold, you would get a fair amount of money just now to do something : but that benefit could not be a permanent benefit. The object of the Government is to do something permanent, and we are only now entering upon a time to do anything ; because the place will be each year rising in value, and the Catholic population is also increasing. "We have hitherto been in the minority. We are not the most disunited body. We are poor, but united, and a good leader will effect good work. 1002. Professor Cook.] Did you not say that the property was let from year to year only ? — Portions of it. There is one piece at present let on lease, which has a year or more to run. 1003. In a schedule to Mr. Mcllhone's evidence, given before the Commissioners in 1869, it appears that one man has a lease for twenty-one years from the 23rd September, 1863. His lease therefore would run until 1884. There is another, James Fitzpatrick, who has a lease for a similar term and from the same date ; and Thomas Nicholson has a lease dated lst January, 1867, for twentyone years of one hundred acres at £50 per annum for the first ten years, and £60 per annum for the residue of twenty-one years. Those are all leases that ought to bo running now?— They have all fallen through. The tenants paid no money, and the land was taken back. 1004. You think the leases lapsed because the tenants declined to pay the money ? —Tes. 1005. Was no attempt made to recover the rent from them ?—Attempts were made, but they were useless. 1006. Then those leases are not in existence now ?—No. According to the information I got yesterday, there is only one lease in existence. Mr. Tole is our agent, and has been since 1874. 1007. I think you said the College building of stone is not on the endowment ? —No ; it is not. 1008. Does that land belong to the Roman Catholic body ? —lt is vested in the Eoman Catholic bishop of the diocese. 1009. Then the whole of this estate —the land that was given by way of endowment, and the piece on which the stone building stands—is all vested in the same trustee ? —No. The object of the trust would be carried out conjointly by the freehold and the building, together with the endowment given by the Government; but I suppose that if the Government came to claim their share, and somebody else came to claim their share, the Government would only get the endowment. Ido not believe that the building was erected on a freehold from any other motive than that of convenience, and I am sure that those who erected it would be anxious to be free from the suspicion of any bad motive. 1010. As I understand, the buildings consist of the College of stone, a church which can seat about one hundred adults ?—There is no church. The little detached building erected for the use of a few Roman Catholic settlers on the freehold property can scarcely be properly named a church. 1011. And there is a schoolhouse which, in 1869, was described as vacant; and Mr. Mcllhone in his evidence says, " Most of the tenants have erected buildings on their holdings—in all about six— some of wood, and others of brick. The lands are in cultivation as a whole " ? —Those reports refer to a date about which I cannot speak; it is anterior to my time. 1012. But those brick buildings ought to be there now ?—There are no brick buildings ; it must be a mistake. I have not visited the place for many years, but I never saw a brick building on it. 1013. Mr. William Swanson, in his evidence before the Commission in 1869, said, "A portion of the Allotment No. 77, Parish of Takapuna, containing four acres, more or less, and being the site of the buildings of St. Mary's Eoman Catholic College at the North Shore, has been conveyed to me. The land in question was seized under a judgment debt, and was advertised by the Sheriff to be sold by auction on tho 3rd March. I paid off the debt in respect of which it was seized, amounting with costs to the sum of £325, with a view of preventing what I considered discreditable. I bought the land and buildings on it absolutely " —and then he went on to give the terms of the reconveyance. Do you know whether the estate has been reconveyed ?—lt has been ; I gave him the money. He has been paid off, and the land has been reconveyed. 1014. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Will you be so good as to refer to the terms of the deed of grant, and to say if the objects of the trust, as there set forth, are of such a character that it would be in your opinion desirable and practicable to give effect to them now if the income of the estate were sufficient ? —I say, Tes ; and I would be most happy to be the instrument, as I think I could be if funds were available. At the same time, I cannot guarantee, not being the permanent authority, that such would take place. 1015. The Chairman.] With regard to the endowment at Freeman's Bay, consisting of four acres and three roods, could you state how that is being utilized ? —Dp to about six months back, or a little more, it was made use of to assist in supporting the orphan and destitute children at the Industrial Institute in connection with St. Mary's Convent; but funds have now been raised with which a building has been erected upon it, and the object of the trust is being carried out. Heretofore it was merely used as an auxiliary to help and assist the Sisters of Mercy in supporting the destitute children of both races under their care. School is being held there now. 1016. Is any portion of the four acres leased or let, or is it all devoted to the use of the school?— It is all devoted to the use of the school, 1017. There is no rent derivable from it ?—Not now ; there was a small amount some time back. 1018. Professor Cook.] Is the school of an ordinary character, and one in which the rudiments of an English education are taught? —Tes. The trust says, "so long as religious education and industrial training be given " —all these things are given. 1019. Then you give the children industrial training as well?—Tes, we do ; including domestic work of every description daily. 1020. The Chairman.] Have you any idea of the value of this endowment ? What street is it in ? —It is contiguous to St. Mary's Convent —in fact, it adjoins that property. 1021. Dr. Wallis.] The convent, I presume, is not built on any portion of these four acres ? —No, but the school is. 7-H. 1.

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1022. Is it between the convent aud the sea?—Tes. It is considered to be worth about £500 an acre. 1023. The Chairman.] How was the Eangiaohia property acquired by tho Eoman Catholic body ?— It was a gift from the Natives in the first instance, and some years afterwards, in 1867, the Government issued the Crown grant. 1024. So that the Government sustained no loss to their landed estate by making that grant to the Eoman Catholic body ?—No : in fact, they did a good work by means of other men's property. 1025. Is there any person in charge of the College at the North Shore ? —Tes, there is a housekeeper, who receives £l a month for taking care of it. 1026. What is being done at Eangiaohia ? Is there a school being maintained there by the Eoman Catholic body ?—There is a sort of a school there, attended by a few Natives ; but I cannot call it an efficient school, nor has it been so since 1872, when the Principal, Father Tinay, left owing to the difficulty of getting pupils. In consequence of the war, and a spirit of discontent amongst the Natives, no pupils would come, and nothing could be done. Bishop Croke, therefore, merely expended the fruits from the endowment in keeping in repair the house which was erected after the fire, and in fencing the land. Whatever little money came in I understand he spent on the place, and since he left, in 1874, I have received about £100 from the estate, which I am reserving with a view of doing something there also. The estate brings in about £20 a year. Most of the land has been leased to a couple of men, who work it, and from whom it is very difficult to get money, as their expenditure is generally in excess of their income. We have, however, obtained about £100 during the last four years. 1027. Professor Cook.] That is in addition to the £200 from St. Mary's ?—I hold myself responsible for about £180 received from the North Shore property, and for about £100 received from the estate at Eangiaohia, which I intend to do something with when I get an opportunity. 1028. The Chairman.] At present, do you maintain a school at Eangiaohia? —I cannot call it a school. There are a few pupils living there, cared for, as means will permit, by the clergyman of the place. 1029. Dr. Wallis.] What do you value the estate at ?—About £5 or £6 an acre. The land is far better than that at the North Shore, and if the Eangiaohia estate had fair-play it ought to bring in more than the North Shore property. Hence it was that the pupils at the North Shore were transferred to Eangiaohia, with the expectation of making the latter a fine establishment. 1030. These lands were given for tho purpose of educating children of both races : do you understand by that their religious education as well as their general education ? —Certainly. 1031. Education in the opinions and tenets of the Church to which you yourself belong? —Tes. Mr. J. Loga_t Campbell, M.D., was sworn, and examined. 1032. The Chairman.] Tou are the Chairman of the Board of Education in Auckland?—Tes. 1033. Tou are aware of the circumstances under which the Girls' High School was established ? —Tes. 1034. It is maintained, I think, by the Board of Education ? —Tes. 1035. AVho is at the head of the institution at present ? —-The headmaster, Mr. Neil Heath. 1036. What staff of assistants has he ? —I could not say. He has just made two additions to his staff. " 1037. Professor Shand.] Are the assistants appointed by the. Education Board, or by Mr. Heath ? —The appointments are first submitted to the Board for confirmation. 1038. The Chairman.] How many pupils are attending the Girls' School ? —I believe that, with the new additions of the present quarter, they number 199, as many as 66 fresh pupils having entered at the new quarter. 1039. As far as you know, is the institution giving satisfaction to the parents of the children?— Under Mr. Neil Heath I hear it universally spoken of as giving satisfaction. The children themselves seem to take a pride and a pleasure in attending the school. 1040. Professor Shand.] Has the school any endowments ? —An endowment of £5,000 worth of land was made last session of Parliament, but the land has not yet been selected. There is no other endowment. 1041. Out of what funds then is the school maintained? —Out of the ordinary revenue of the Education Board. 1042. Do you get nothing from the School Commissioners administering education reserves ?— The question of the appropriation of that money is now under the consideration of the solicitor for the Commissioners, who desire to ascertain in what manner it is to be divided. We expect to get some funds from that source, but to what extent I cannot say. 1043. Can you tell us the whole sum at the disposal of the Commissioners for secondary education ? —I cannot. That is also a point at present under consideration. 1044. The whole sum is, of course, a fourth ?—Tes ; but the wording of the Act is a little confused, and we have been obliged to refer the whole matter to a solicitor to ascertain in what manner the division is to be made, and the amount to be paid. 1045. The Chairman.] Has there been an examination of the pupils attending the Girls' School ?— There was an examination at the end of last quarter. 1046. By whom was it conducted ? —By Mr. H. 11. Lusk and the Eev. Mr. Eunciman. 1047. Did they furnish a report to the Board of Education ? —They did; it can be obtained from the Secretary. 1048. Ia the present building rented ? —Tes. We took it for two years with the option of continuing it, and hold it now for five years at a rental of £200 a year. 1049. Bey. W. J. Habens.] From whom is the building rented?—l believe from the trustees of the Wesleyan body. 1050. Do you regard the Girls' High School as a secondary school—as distinct from a primary (school ?•—Tes.

Very Sev. S. J. Fynes.

Feb. 12, 1879.

Mr. J. Logan Camplell, M.D.

Feb. 12,1879.

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1051. Has it any technical reference to the training of teachers ?—Not just no v.. 1052. Professor Drown.] Is there any entrance examination? —No. 1053. Dr. Wallis.] Is the school both a primary and a secondary school combined ?—lt is both primary and secondary. 1054. Professor Cook.] Some of the subjects taught in primary schools may be taught in the Girls' School, but are they taught in the very rudiments ? For instance, would they teach the children to read there ? —Children are not taught their AB C. The only qualification for admission is simply being able to read. 1055. Professor Shand.] What are the fees charged ? —£B a year. 1056. Is there a uniform fee? —Tes ; the parents have the option of paying extra for certain subjects —music, for instance, and singing. 1057. Are modern languages extra ? —No ; they are part of the school course. 1058. Dr. Hector.] In some other parts of the colony the question of mixing the boys and girls in one high school has been discussed : was that question debated here at the time of the establishment of the Girls' High School ? —No, because the school originated under some Act or authority of the Provincial Council whereby it was specified that the school should be for girls alone. 1059. Ho you think such mixing of the boys aud girls in one school would be disadvantageous ?— I do. 1000. Professor Droivn.] Have you any female teachers, or are they all male teachers?—We have only one male teacher, but the headmaster is desirous of procuring others. 1061. Dr. Wallis.] What are the highest subjects taught in the Girls' School ? —They are taught algebra, aud other branches of mathematics. 1062. Professor Drown.] Is Latin taught ? —Tes. When the pupils reach a certain form they can continue on or change to some of the modern languages. 1063. Professor Cook.] The school having at present no endowments available, do you think its income is sufficient to carry out its objects ? —lt is not. At the present moment the fees from the pupils will not do more than pay the teachers' salaries. 1061<. Do you think the teachers are adequately remunerated? —-Tes; so far as they have gone. 1065. Tou think the present staff is sufficient ? —No ; I consider that Mr. Heath,'who is a gentleman of indomitable energy, does moro work than he ought to do. 1066. Dr. Wallis.] What are the salaries given to the different teachers ?—Mr. Heath gets £500 a year. There is no head governess just now, but there ought to be one, at a salary of £250. There are other teachers, one of whom receives £150, the rest graduating down. The £500 to Mr. Heath includes payment for the services of his wife as lady-superintendent, &c. 1067. Professor Drown.] How many boarders are there ? —About sixteen, I think. There is very poor accommodation for boarders. 1068. The Chairman.] What is the charge for boarders ? —I think it is £50 a year. 1069. Professor Shand.] Is tbe accommodation for the boarders provided by the Education Board? — It is part of the house rented. Tho Education Board provides a certain amount of funds, and the rest is undertaken by the headmaster. 1070. Bev.W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the school rooms are suitable for the purpose ? —On the contrary, the accommodation has been so inadequate that wo have been compelled to erect a large temporary class-room, otherwise we should not have been able to receive the recent large influx of pupils. 1071. Is there any one class of the community by whom the school is more used than another, or have you any remark to make on that subject generally r —l understand it is used by all classes, from the highest down to the lowest. 1072. Professor Cook.] Does the £50 a year paid by boarders include the £8 tuition fee, or is it paid only for their board ? —I cannot say. 1073. Does the money paid for board go to Mr. Heath in addition to his salary of £500 ? —The money paid for board goes to Mr. Heath. The boarders are taken at such a rate that it is not supposed that there is any great profit. The thing is cut down to the lowest; the fees are also exceedingly low. The questoin was raised tho other day whether it would not be prudent to raise the fees, but the feeling seemed to be agaiust it. 1074. Do you think it would have the effect of diminishing the numbers? —As a rule the Auckland community is not a rich community, and it was considered that where three or four of a family were pupils an increase in the fees might have the effect of preventing the attendance of one of them, and in that way the total number of scholars might be diminished. 1075. Dr. Wallis.] Are the girls found as capable of learning languages as boys generally are ? — I think Mr. Heath would say that he has some girls who are going to beat all the boys. 1076. Are you are aware whether they are as competent to learn mathematics ? —I could not say. 1077. Do you kuow whether, in learning classics and mathematics, the girls as a rule lose their health ? Has there been any report of theirloss of health from study ?—No doubt Mr. Heath could point to some devoted aspirants for fame who have overworked themselves. 1078. Girls as well as boys ?—Tes; it would follow almost as a necessary effect. 1079. Dr. Hector.] If you had better accommodation would tho school be extended ? —I believe so. I should not wonder to see the school run up to three hundred pupils under Mr. Heath's management. 1080. What sum would be sufficient to provide proper buildings ? —I think about the same amount which it is anticipated the new Grammar School buildings will cost —namely, £9,000. That would only give class-rooms and accommodation for about from thirty-five to forty boarders. 1081. Professor Shand.] What sum do you suppose would be required as a permanent endowment for the school ? —I could not give you any idea. 1082. Of course as the number of pupils increased the expenses would also increase? —Tes, but not in proportion ; because the salary of the headmaster would remain the same. The addition of

Mr. J. Logan Campbell, M.D,

Feb. 12,1879,

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fresh scholars might require the appointment of a new teacher, but his salary would not be very large, and all the other expenses would continue the same. 1033. Tou think then that, if there were a sufficient number of pupils, no endowment would be required, as the school would be self-supporting?—lt would approach that. 108_. Dr. Wallis.] Do the teachers all hold certificates ?—Not all; but some do. 1085. Professor Cook.] From the Board of Education?— They may have other certificates. We have great difficulty in finding competent teachers. The Board have been compelled, owing to the great difficulty of obtaining governesses, to appoint uncertificated, but on the understanding they go up for examination. 1086. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Can you state what is the main cause of that difficulty ? Does it arise, for example, from the competition of primary schools for teachers ? —I presume it is owing to the demand for teachers which exists all over the world. It is an increasing demand, which cannot be adequately supplied. Of course if wo were able to give large salaries we should obtain teachers more readily. 1087. Dr. Wallis.] Did you say that this school was to a certain extent a normal training institution ? —No, it has not been. 1088. The Ohairman.] Is the curriculum of study prescribed by tho Board or by the headmaster ? —It is prepared by Mr. Heath and approved of by the Board. 1089. Do you consider the fees excessive or otherwise ? —I think they are extremely moderate. 1090. Dr. Wallis.] Moderate even in the lower classes ? —Tes. 1091. The Chairman.] Are you of opinion that this Girls' School should be assisted by the Government in the same way that primary schools are ? —I am. 1092. Tou think it has a claim upon the Government ? —Decidedly. If the institution is not self-supporting it must inevitably fall to tho ground in the absence of extraneous aid. 1093. Dr. Wallis.] Do you think it right that secondary education in this colony should be entirely free like primary education ?—No, I do not. 109-4. Professor Shand.] Does the Education Board draw any capitation grant from the Government on account of the pupils attending this school ? —-It has up to the present time. 1095. Be v. W. J. Habens.] When in possession of the endowment of £5,000 worth of land do you understand that the Girls' High School will still be entitled to a capitation allowance? —I believe it will not then be entitled to the capitation allowance. 1096. Dr. Wallis.] Primary education is taught in this school at the present time in order that it may receive the capitation allowance ? —I do not think that is the interpretation of the Act. Ido not believe that was intended by the Legislature when it passed the Act. Besides, the endowment of £5,000 worth of land might of course only produce a very trifling income. 1097. Would you consider it desirable that the primary part of the education —the lower branches, tho alphabet and so on —should be discontinued in a secondary school of this sort ? —That opens up the question of whether it is desirable that all sections of the community should go to the public free schools. 1098. It cannot be intended that there should be institutions exacting fees for primary education apart from the public schools ? —The Girls' High School is an establishment to which all classes on paying fees can go and commence their education. 1099. Is this High School, which gives both primary and secondary education, intended to be an aristocratic institution —entirely aristocratic for those who are able to pay, so that the rich may be kept separate from the primary schools ? —No. 1100. Professor Shand.] Is it the intention that the primary education given should lead up to the secondary education which the school is afterwards to provide ? —I think that follows as a natural sequence. 1101. And the primary instruction given there may not be identical with what is given in the Government schools? —No. 1102. Professor Drown.] Do you think the Girls' High School would not be more efficient as a secondary school if the primary part were cut ofF, and an entrance examination, demanding a certain standard, enforced ? —lt would then, of course, assume the character of a more effective secondary school. 1103. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that, taken generally, a girls' high school should be placed on the same footing, as regards endowment, establishment, and regulations, as a boys' high school ? —Tes. 1104. Tou think they are equally important? —Tes. 1105. Dr. Wallis.] Is the Girls' High School affiliated with the University of New Zealand?—l do not think so. 1100. Do you think it would be desirable to affiliate it ? —At present the girls are not excluded from taking honours. 1107. Professor Cook.] If the lower part of the school in which primary education is provided were cut off, do you not think that in tho present circumstances of the school the effect would be to cripple it for want of funds ? —lt would diminish tho number of pupils, no doubt. 110 S. Is it not a fact that the income derived from the lower forms is more than necessary for the teaching of those forms, and that money is gained thereby wherewith to help to teach the higher forms ? —I am not aware that that is the case with regard to the Girta' High School, but I believe it is with regard to the Boys' Grammar School. 1109. It is generally the case, I think ?—Tes. Of course, as pupils become advanced in their education, there is always a certain percentage who are content with instruction up to a particular point, when they drop off, whereas the lower forms are always full. 1110. Do you think that under present circumstances, and until the Girls' High School has a sufficient endowment, the cutting off of the lower forms would absolutely impair the efficiency of the upper? —In default of funds, of course it would.

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Feb. 12,1879.

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1111. The Chairman.] There has been an idea abroad for some time that a medical school, or medical schools, ought to be established in the colony. Do you think the circumstances of Auckland are such as would enable a medical school to be established here?—l am so little of that opinion, that I should question the propriety of having a medical school for the whole of New Zealaud. 1112. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is that opinion founded upon the smali number of students likely to avail themselves of the advantages of a medical school, or rather upon the want of opportunity for the necessary training aud instruction ?—I believe it is utterly impossible to get a sufficient number of students to support a University. New Zealand is not yet far enough advanced for that. If you take the population of the colony at some 400,000, and deduct half for the male population, then deduct the number of adults from that again, and take the percentage of young men from fifteen to eighteen years of age, from whom you must get your students for the University, I question very much whether the whole of New Zealand would give a percentage sufficient to sustain a University. 1113. I understand that your reply refers not only to a medical school, but to a University in general ? —Tes. I do not look at the question as to when would be tho proper time for a young city to commence a University of its own, but merely, meeting the question as you put it, it does not appear to me that there is a population to support a University. Again, as to the opportunities of training medical students here, Ido not see how we could do it. The opportunities of educating them do not exist. 1114. Professor Shand.] Tour objection would of course apply still more to establishing more than one medical school for New Zealand ?—Certainly. Tou require subjects for dissection. In the hospitals you will only find a percentage of ordinary diseases. There is not population enough to fill the hospitals with a sufficient variety of diseases. 1115. Vrofessor Drown.] In saying that New Zealand is not ripe for a University, do you mean a University fully equipped in all departments, or simply a University for liberal culture, such as Oxford or Cambridge? l)o you mean a fully equipped University in some centre?—l doubt if New Zealand has a sufficient population for such a University. 1116. Tou do not mean a University such as the present University of New Zealand?—l am not well acquainted with tho University of New Zealand. lam merely speaking in broad terms as to the advisability of establishing a University or medical school. 1117. Professor Shand.] Tou are judging, I suppose, by the proportion of the population to the number of Universities in the European countries ?—I could not state of my own knowledge the proportion the Universities at Home bear to the population ; but, looking at the question broadly, I can hardly believe that the population of New Zealand is ripe for a University. 1118. "Would you have any objection to state what population, in your opinion, would justify the founding of a University ?—That is a statistical question, and a matter of figures; you can prove anything with figures. It is quite impossible for me to state that, although it is a legitimate question in the face of my statement that I do not believe a population of 400,000 is sufficient. 1119. "Would not a medical student have an opportunity of studying the diseases which most frequently occur in the colony ?—No doubt. 1120. So as to be admitted as a practitioner within the colony ?—That would be, I think, taking a very narrow view of the scope of a medical practitioner's knowledge. As the colony grows older I presume we shall have the same diseases here which occur at Home, although we escape a great many in point of severity. 1121. Dr. Hector.] Supposing there was an endowment existing which could be applied, say for the District of Auckland, to promote medical education, in what form do you think it would be best utilized? In sending the students Home as scholars?—Tes; I should imagine that the same money devoted to the maintenance of a large University would do more good if spent iv sending pupils Homo. 1122. Professor Sale.] Do you think that any part of a medical course'could be effectually learned in the colony —say anatomy, chemistry, or botany ? —Chemistry, yes ; botany, yes ; anatomy, no. 1123. Tou think the opportunities for learning anatomy would be better in the large institutions at Home than in the small instilutions here ?—I do. 1124. Dr. Wallis.] In anatomy do you include dissection ? —Tes. 1125. The Chairman.] Could you state whether anything has been done with regard to the endowment and establishment of a school of art in Auckland? —There is no public school of art in Auckland. 112 G. Dr. Hector.] Has anythiug been done towards getting scholars together so as to test whether there is any opening for such an institution? —I cannot answer that without introducing a personal reference to myself. 1127. I believe there has been an art class established ?—Tes, a Free School of Art—free to the students in every respect. 1128. How many are attending?— About thirty. 1129. How long has it been in operation r —Only some three months. 1130. Is it well supplied with models, &c ? —lt was instituted on the arrival of the donation of Mr. Thomas Eussell, and a certain number of the models were procured. 1131. Is it limited to outline drawing?—Tes. 1132. "Would there be any demand for tuition in engineering, mechanical, and architectural drawing ? —I think so. 1133. I understand that this school has been maintained by the bounty of private individuals, and not by Government funds at all? —I may say that it is wholly and entirely maintained by myself. 1134. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that, in any general scheme of public education, such a school of art should be included at each of the large centres?— Distinctly I do. 1135. And that Government support and patronage should be accorded to it ? —Tes. 113 G. Do you think it probable that such an institution in each of the large centres would command such a number of students as would make it a worthy object of Government support ? — Tes.

Mr. J. Logan Campbell, M.D,

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Mr. J. Logan 1137. And what class of effects upon the public welfare do you chiefly contemplate in saying so ? Campbell, M.D. —The general elevation of character. F b TT^o-q 1138. Professor Cook.] Do you think it would be practicable to teach music in the same sort of ' ' ' way ? Do you think there is in Auckland any demand for a general teaching of music in the schools, or by the establishment of classes ? —lt is a necessary part of the programme of the existing Board of Education, and we carry it out as far as possible. 1139. The Chairman.] Has there been any attempt, as far as you are aware, to establish an agricultural school in this province?—l am not aware of any. Son. Colonel The Hon. Colonel Hatjitain was sworn and examined. Saultain. 1140. The Chairman.] The Bishop has referred us to you with regard to the property at St. John's. Feb. 12,1879. We wish to ascertain whether it was an endowment, or whether it was acquired by the Church ofEngland independent of the Government ?—Altogether independent of the Government, in every respect. 1141. Has the Parnell Grammar School got any Government endowment such as St. Stephen's ? — None whatever. 1142. What kind of education is being carried on at present at St. John's College ?—Solely such education as would be given to theological students —candidates for holy orders. 1143. Has the institution derived any benefit from being affiliated to the New Zealand University? -—Not pecuniarily. lam not aware how many of the students have matriculated, but it is the desire of the governors of the institution that every student who completes his course of study at the College should, prior to being admitted to holy orders, graduate at the University. 1141. I understand then that the ordinary tuition would embrace the course for Bachelor of Arts as well as a divinity course?— Yes. Prior to my arrival in New Zealand, more than thirty years ago, I believe a grant of money was made by Sir George Grey in aid of buildings at St. John's College, at the same time that grants of money were made in aid of buildings at the Three Kings for Wesley College, and at the North Shore for St. Mary's College. I cannot say positively what the amount was, but my impression is that it was about £2,000 for each institution. 1145. By whom is the curriculum of study prescribed at St. John's College ? —By the governors. 1146. Is any prospectus issued in connection with the College, inviting persons to become pupils? —I think not. There is an advertisement published in the Church Gazette, which appears every month. 1147. How many masters are maintained at the College ? —Only one. 1148. What is the charge for boarders ? —The master is allowed £00 a year for each pupil, which includes £15 tuition fee. 1149. What salary do you pay the headmaster ?—He receives, besides the allowance for boarders, £205 a year, in which is included a sum for ministerial duties performed at the chapel. He formerly had an allowance of £25 a year, but there was an objection to that. He is bound to perform certain services in the chapel, and his salary is £2G5 plus the tuition fees, aud the profit he may derive from the boarding of the pupils. 1150. Professor Coolc] Of course he has a house?—Tes. There is ample accommodation there for a very much larger number of pupils than attend at present. 1151. Dr. Hector.] For how many would there bo accommodation ?—1 know that some years ago Mr. Blackman had seventeen or eighteen boarders, aud seventy or eighty boys attending the school. 1152. Mev. W. J. Habens.] Referring to your statement that St. John's College received a money grant from the Government, are you able of your own knowledge to say whether the proceeds of the money so received were devoted to the objects for which it was granted ? —No, lam not. lam not in a position to give any information on that subject, as it is so far back. It was before I came to the colony. I understand the money was expended on buildings. 1153. Can you say of your own knowledge whether the money grant was intended for such an institution as St. John's College now is?—l can only speak doubtfully. I think the money was given by Sir George Grey more especially with reference to Native education. 1154. Could you refer the Commission to a competent authority for information on this subject ? —Mr. Swainson was a member of the Executive Council in those days, and he is still in Auckland. Sir George Grey himself could of course give information. 1155. Practically you have no doubt that the application of the money was according to the intention ? —No doubt whatever. 1150. Professor Sale.] You said that the object of the institution was to furnish such an education as theological students are usually expected to get. Would the governors of the institution look favourably upon the extension of the studies so as to embrace an education which persons not intended for the clerical profession might wish to get ?—Certainly, if they had the means. 1157. Have you ever had applications for admission to the institution from persons not candidates for holy orders ? —For scholarships. 1158. But not for admission otherwise ? —Anybody would be admitted. The funds of the institution—the endowments—are devoted to the education of theological students: that is to say, the scholarships are only given to theological students. 1159. Theological students are preferred as scholars ?—-Yes. 11C0. But you would have no objection to enlarge your operations ?—No, and get other students. Of course, if we did that, we should be able to get additional masters. 1161. The Chairman.] I think you are one of the governing body of the Parnell Grammar School? ■ —That institution is included in the same trust. 1102. What are the school fees there?—£lo per annum, with extras. Drawing and botany are the only extras at the present time. Drawing, I think, is one guinea a quarter. 1163. Has the school been in any degree crippled for want of funds? —Certainly. There is not that teaching power in the under-mastei's that is very desirable. Of course, with sp limited an income,

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the headmaster, who appoints his own under-masters, cannot, offer such high salaries as are obtained in other institutions. Still there are reasons why the Church of England Grammar School should bo able to hold its own better than another institution under the same circumstances. 1164. Does the school get any aid from Church funds ? —No. The school got aid from St. John's College, for the school buildings were erected at the cost of that institution, and other expenses defrayed. Bishop Selwyn took upon himself the cost of bringing the master out in the first instance, and spent a sum of money in building the schoolhouse, which he charged against the St. John's College fund, amounting altogether to about £1,100 or £1,200. The charge was approved of by the General Synod. So that tho Grammar School was not founded solely on its own basis with no endowments at all; it has had some assistance. It was looked upon in the first instance as a feeding institution to St. John's College. 1165. As far as you know, the Parnell School has received no aid from the Government in the way of an endowment of land or in grants of public money ? —No. 11G6. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Could you express in general terms tho distinction between the kind of education given at St. Johu's College aud that given in the Parnell Grammar School ? —At St. John's, the students are all of an advanced age ; at the Grammar School, the boys are all under sixteen or seventeen. But the course of education would be the same. The education at the Grammar School is a common grammar-school education in classics, mathematics, history, &c. 1167. Then is the principal distinction based upon the fact that at St. John's College the students are older than those at the Grammar School ? —Tes ; and being specially trained for holy orders at the preseut time. I may be misuuderstood in saying that St. John's College would enlarge its course of study if it had other pupils who could go there at their own expense. Any number of pupils would be received who wished to go there. Situated as things are at present, there is no desire on the part of young men to go out there. 1168. And I understand that the design of the governors is to make St. John's College a place for college education as distinct from grammar-school education ? —Tes. 1169. Por higher rather than secondary education? —Tes. 1170. Is there any limit of age for admission? —At tho present time there is practically none. There was in former years when the two institutions were in full operation. At that time students under fifteen years of age were not admitted at St. John's College; they had to go to the Grammar School. 1171. The Chairman^] At the present time, would they take a boy at St. John's College of the age of twelve or thirteen or fourteen years ? —There is no limit as to age. I think, if there were boys in the neighbourhood who wished to go there, they would be admitted. 1172. Professor Sale.] As boarders? —Tes. 1173. The Chairman.] Could parents send boys of the age of twelve, thirteen, or fourteen to the institution as boarders ? —I do not think a single parent would desire to do so. It would be rather inconvenient for one or two boys to go to a school where there were no others of the same age. There is nothing in the rules to prevent their being received. 1174. Dr. Wallis.] Are the same subjects, classics and mathematics, taught equally at the two institutions —equally advanced ?—They would be more advanced at St. John's College. 1175. But classics and mathematics are taught at both institutions ?— Yes. 1176. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I observe that St. John's College and tho Church of England Grammar School are both affiliated to the University of New Zealand. Do you consider the same necessity for affiliation exists in the case of the two institutions ? —I think it is very desirable that they should both be affiliated. There are students at the Grammar School who have no intention of entering holy orders, who would be glad to matriculate at the University, but who would be prevented from doing so if the school were not an affiliated institution. 1177. But what would prevent students at that stage of their work from attending at St. John's College rather than at the Grammar School ? —Distance from town would be a very great objection— the chief objection. The great reason why St. John's College is not a more flourishing institution, and able to devote any of its means towards general education, is that students cannot conveniently go out there. 1178. There are, I think, no students there at all except those who are on the foundation? —None but scholars. 1179. I think you are also one of the governing body of tho Auckland College and Grammar School ?—Tes. 1180. "Would you consider the standard of education at that school as approaching more nearly that at the Parnell Grammar School or that at St. John's College ?—That at Parnell Grammar School. 1181. Tou consider the St. John's College standard as higher than that at the Grammar School ?— Certainly; it is intended for students for the Church. 1182. Professor Cook.] Is there any entrance examination at St. John's College?— Practically, no. Men of twenty-two or twenty-four years of age are admitted who are anxious to study for holy orders. They go there for a year or two to complete their theological studies. 1183. Professor Sale.] Not scholars? —Sometimes scholars. The Bishop sometimes has a very promising young man who he thinks would make a desirable candidate for holy orders. The young man might not be sufficiently advanced in his studies, and the Bishop would get him appointed as a scholar for the sake of obtaining one or two years' more instruction. 1184. Dr. Hector.] Aro these scholarships grained as gifts, or gained by examination ? —Virtually, as gifts at the present time. They would be open to competition if there were a sufficient number of candidates. The St. John's College is not an Auckland institution ; its advantages should be distributed generally throughout the whole colony. It is a colonial institution, which was founded by Bishop Selwyn when he was bishop of the whole diocese, and the endowments belonged to all the dioceses in the colony. Each of the Bishops throughout the colony nominates a member of the Board of Governors; and when St. John's College was reopened scholarships were advertised all over the colony, and candidates were invited to offer themselves; but there were no candidates from any of the

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other dioceses, so that, virtually, the benefits of the institution are enjoyed by persons belonging to the Auckland Provincial District rind the DioCese of Auckland. But they are open, and would be made open, if there were any candidates, to all parts of the colony. 1185. The Chairman.] Who compose the present Board of Governors?— The Bishop, as Chairman, Mr. Barstow, the Eev. Mr. Burrows, Archdeacon Maunsell, Mr. W. Atkin, and myself. The Bishop of Auckland acts for himself ; Mr. Burrows, I think, was appointed by Bishop Hadfield, of Wellington ; Archdeacon Maunsell was appointed by the Bishop of Waiapu ; I was appointed by Bishop Suter, of Nelson ; and Mr. Barstow and Mr. Atkin must have been appointed by the Bishops of Christchurch and Dunedin. 1186. Then the scholarships are open to persons, say, down in Dunedin ? —Tes, and persons in Dunedin were invited, some four or five years ago, to compete ; and, if there had been more applicants than there were scholarships to be granted, the appointments would have been made by competition. There were, however, no applicants from other parts of the colony. 1187. The Chairman.] As a member of the Board of Governors of the Auckland College and Grammar School, can you state what was done in endeavouring to establish evening classes in connection with that institution ?—ln June, 1572, there were several evening classes established for teaching history, Latin, chemistry, and mathematics. 1188. Were these all in connection with the Auckland College and Grammar School?—Tes. 1189. Bey. W. J. Habens.] As far as you know, are they the only classes of the kind that have been established at any time in Auckland ?—These evening classes died out, owing to the attendance falling off. Mr. Macrae could give you exact information as to the number that originally attended, the number the classes dwindled down to, and the precise periods when they were discontinued. Since that time I have seen evening classes by private individuals advertised in the papers; but I do not know how they were attended, and do not think they are being carried on at the present time. 1190. Professor Cook.] The Bishop told us yesterday that there were some evening classes conducted by Mr. Worthington. Were those the classes ? —No ; I think Mr. Worthington's classes are for the instruction of teachers under the Board of Education. 1191. Distinct from the Grammar School ? —Tes. They are special classes for the instruction of the younger teachers, who are anxious to obtain the advantage of instruction from a trained man, the Board of Education paying for their instruction. 1192. Dr. Wallis.] Are the evening classes which Mr. Eobertson conducts in connection with the Grammar School ? —I believe not. I said there were four classes established in June, 1872—namely, history, Latin, chemistry, and mathematics. In the beginning of 1873 there were two other classes, logic and French, but I do not think any of them lasted a whole year. 1193. Speaking generally, the attempt was not appreciated by the public of Auckland ?—Certainly not; but the governors of the Grammar School would have considered themselves bound by the conditions of the trust to carry them out. 1194. Do you recollect where the classes were held ? —I think in the. Provincial Government buildings which are now occupied by the Land Office. 1195. Professor Shand.] Were the teachers of these classes paid by salaries, or did they get fees ?— They were teachers of the Grammar School. Each student, I think, paid a fee of ss. a quarter. 1196. Was that the only remuneration they got for this additional work ? —Tes. 1197. Dr. Hector.] Do you think, if there were proper appliances in Auckland for carrying on evening instruction, there would be any students ? Do you think there is any demand for that kind of instruction? —There would be a demand for some kinds of instruction. Ido not know whether evening classes would be well attended for mathematics and classics. 1198. Do you think the former attempt failed on account of the want of proper appliances and proper lecture-rooms and teachers, or was it solely owing to the apathy of the public ?—Tou do not want many appliances for teaching classics and mathematics. The only science that was attempted was chemistry ; the appliances were very limited, and, in fact, only the rudiments were taught. I think a chemistry class here would very likely be well attended. 1199. Do you think that such a class would be better in connection with the Auckland Grammar School, or with some independent institution—say connected with the Museum? —That is rather a difficult question to answer. It is only a matter of opinion. 1200. Financially?—lt would be more economical if carried out in connection with the Grammar School; but it would not be so satisfactory or so complete as it would be if the institution were a separate one. There is no doubt there is a very great and urgent want of technical instruction in this town. At present we have no opportunities or means for affording such instruction. 1201. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that if means of technical instruction were provided a sufficient attendance of pupils could be secured in the day-time, or would it be necessary to have evening classes for such a purpose? —I think it would be necessary to have evening classes. 1202. Dr. Hector.] Supposing such an institution were established, would' the Museum site be convenient? —Tes, I think it would be a very convenient site. Not perhaps the most convenient, for of course a site in the centre of the town would suit the town people better ; but the Museum site is sufficiently near not to be any objection to those who really want instruction. 1203. The Chairman.] Do you know whether there are many persons attending the training class for teachers which is carried on, I believe, by Mr. Worthington ? —I know that there are a large number of persons attending. At the end of last year there were seventy or eighty pupils, and there are more now. 1204. Professor Shand.] Were they all teachers ? —Tes. Mr. Worthington has evening classes for those who reside in town, and on Saturdays they all meet. 1205. The Chairman.] Does he receive any extra remuneration ? —Tes. 120 G. Professor Shand.] How long has this class been in operation ? —I could not say definitely. 1207. I suppose the intention is to supply the want of a normal school in Auckland ?—Exactly. 1208. Do you think it desirable that such a school should be established here ?—Very desirable indeed.

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1209. The Chairman.] Do you know what is being done at the Thames in that direction ?—I think there is also a class of teachers there, under instruction'by one of the Board's teachers. 1210. Dr. Hector.] Are you connected with the Education Board ?—I am a member. 1211. Are you aware of any arrangement recently entered into for the establishment of a normal school ? —Tes ; as a training school. 1212. Can you explain how it lias been done—by consolidating, I understand ? —There were three school districts within the City of Auckland, and the Board of Education consolidated these three into one. They did not like to take from any one of the School Committees its particular school out of its hands, as that would be virtually setting aside the Committee altogether, and they thought it would be better to have one School Committee for the City of Auckland than three. They consolidated the three, and have set apart, as a training school, the chief school, which was kept by Mr. Worthington, who now has a class for training teachers. 1213. The Education Board has retained that school in its own hands?—Tes; it is taken out of the hands of the Committee, and is administered directly by the Board as a training school. 1214. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know anything of the history or the operations of an institution the name of which appears on one of the windows of the Choral Hall as a " Model Training School " ?—I know very little about it, except that, during the time the master, Mr. Martin, was in vigorous health, it was very largely attended. 1215. Dr. Hector.] What were the ages of the pupils?—Erom seven to seventeen —boys and girls. 1216. What number were there ?- —I understood there were as many as 300 on the rolls. 1217. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Was it a private school? —Tes. It was called a Model School, the instruction being given from models. It no longer exists as a separate school, and is now a school under the Board of Education. Mr. Martin's health having failed him, he was compelled to give up the sole management of it. Ido not think it paid him very well: he could not collect his fees. 1218. Professor Sale.] Tou left the impression that, although there is nothing in the regulations to.prevent ordinary students attending St. John's College for the sake of obtaining a liberal education, yet, practically, it is a theological college, and only theological students could get scholarships—only theological students could really attend? —Tes. 1219. is there anything in the training, or in the principles of the place, which would be likely to exclude other than members of tho Church of England ?—The trust says, " Eor the site of, and towards the support of, the said College of St. John the Evangelist, near Auckland, and for the education in the said College of candidates for holy orders, and for the instruction and training in the said College of the youth of both races in moral and industrious habits, and for the education of all the students therein in the principles of the Christian religion, according to the doctrine and discipline of the Church of England." 1220. The Chairman.] Do you think there is a demand in Auckland for University education?—l do not think there is. Ido not think there is any demand at the present time for a higher class of education than could be given at the Auckland College and Grammar School. There is a decided want, I think, for technical education. 1221. Bather than for University education such as is given in Canterbury and Otago?—Tes. We have not sufficient people here. We could not get the number of students that would justify any expenditure on special University education. We have not many of the wealthy class here. There are very few people here, for instance, who, as a rule, could send their sons to England rather than educate them in the colony. . 1222. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it probable that the supply of such instruction would create a demand ? —I do not think so. Ido not think we have the material. We have a great difficulty in keeping boys under instruction after they have reached sixteen or seventeen years of age. 1223. Professor Cook.] May that not arise from the fact that they have risen to the top of the school, which is no longer able to teach them much ? —I think not, because the school has the means of teaching them a great deal more. We have men as masters of the school who could carry them on very much further. But I think it is partly due to the fact that boys do not like to remain at school when their former comrades are out in the world earning their own living aud following professions or callings. A boy after he is seventeen years of age does not like to be called a schoolboy. 1224. But would he not cease to be a schoolboy if he joined such an institution as the Chairman indicated when he asked the last question ? —Tes ; but I think there are so few who would desire to continue their education here. lam speaking simply of this district. 1225. Professor Ulrich.] Tou said you thought technical instruction might be given by means of evening classes. Do you mean higher professional instruction, say in mining and in agriculture, or do you mean a lower kind? The really higher instruction could not of course be carried on in the evening? —I think that if we had the means we might carry on a certain amount of technical instruction in our Grammar School. 1226. Dr. Hector.] What Professor Ulrich wishes to know, I think, is, whether there would be an opening in Auckland for the establishment of a purely technical school, like a school of mines, for the production of professional men —engineers, architects, surveyors, &c. ?—I have not sufficient information to form a definite opinion on a point of that kind. 1227. Professor Ulrich.] I asked the question because you said there was a want of technical education, and I wished to know how you would define that education?—AYhat I meant by technical instruction was instruction in natural science, chemistry, botany, model-drawing, civil-engineering, and navigation. 1228. Dr. Hector.] General instruction in those subjects, with the view of professional use being made of it afterwards ? —Tes. 1229. Professor Cook.] Then, if you had a set of men competent to teach those subjects anything like thoroughly, the addition, say, of a gentleman to give lectures in classics and of another to give lectures in English would about complete your staff, and make a very good college ?—At the Univer--B—H. 1.

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sity classics and mathematics are compulsory subjects; you would not get the students of the technical classes I have referred to to study these two subjects. 1230. Tou said that there was no demand for a college which would busy itself with higher education generally, and yet you say that for technical education, as I understand you to mean it, it would require a considerable staff of men of high qualifications ; and I say that the addition of about two more lecturers would make the institution a complete college?—Tes, but those two are really the. principal part of a University. When I said we did not want University education I was thinking more especially of classics and mathematics. 1231. Tou could not do without mathematics in a technical school such as you contemplate?— There is not much mathematics required in botany and chemistry, and you can teach seafaring men what they require to know as mates and masters of vessels without requiring any high knowledge of mathematics from them. 1232. Apart from that, all that you would require to complete your University staff would be a lecturer in classics and one in English and history ? —We want instruction in technical subjects. I confess I am not able to give you a decided opinion as to whether it would be better to have a separate establishment altogether for giving that instruction, or whether it would be better to graft it on to our present Grammar School. I am rather inclined to think that at the present time it would be safer, and, in a pecuniary view, more economical, to commence, as a tentative measure, by grafting it on to the Grammar School, by giving that institution the means of procuring instructors who could give instruction in the Grammar School during a portion of the day and complete their time by having evening classes. There is a want, but I cannot say I have thought out the question of how that want can be best supplied. 1233. The Chairman.] Do you think that the three scholastic institutions with which you are connected —namely, the Auckland College and Grammar School, the Church of England Grammar School, and St. John's College—have derived any benefit from the New Zealand University in an educational point of view?: —I think that the Auckland College and Grammar School has certainly derived benefit. Its status has been improved. 1234. Professor Sale.] Erom the name of an affiliated institution ?—There has been an advantage in tho name, and some pupils have been encouraged to go through tho University course who otherwise would not have done so. 1235. The Chairman.] Then as regards the Auckland Grammar School, there has been a beneficial effect ? —Tes ; irrespective of the pecuniary advantage which the institution derived, aud which was ■ certainly of some importance. 1236. Would you say the same with regard to the Parnell School and St. John's ?—They have neither derived any pecuniary advantage. I cannot say how many pupils the Parnell Grammar School matriculated —not more than one or two I think—but there will be matriculated students there, and they will derive an advantage in that way. 1237. Then on the whole you think that the establishment of the New Zealand University has been an incentive to these institutions to develop a higher class of education?—l think so. 1238. Professor Shand.] With regard to the Auckland College and Grammar School, has not the time of the teachers been a good deal taken up in giving education to the undergraduates —those who have matriculated in the University and are studying for their degree?—l do not think so. There is no doubt that the expense of tuition for the upper classes is very much larger in proportion than it is for the lower classes. For instance, last year the upper class consisted of eight boys only. They required the undivided attention of one of the senior masters, who received £350 a year ; and therefore the cost of their tuition alone, without including their proportion of the headmaster's salary, and of the contingent expenses, was over £40 per head. 1239. AYe have had it in evidence from the Chairman of the Board that the funds have hitherto been barely sufficient to support the school as a school, and I wish to ask whether the fact that the time of the masters was a good deal taken up with the training of undergraduates would not tend to impair the efficiency of the school as a secondary school ? —There have been so very few matriculated students that I do not think it has practically had that effect. 1240. I presume the class you mentioned as composed of eight pupils consisted of matriculated students ? —No ; they were not all matriculated students. 1241. The undergraduates, then, are really taught along with the ordinary scholars ? —Tes. 1242. Professor Ulrich.] Supposing an institution were established for giving technical instruction of the character you have mentioned—a real school of mines, as it is usually understood, or an agricultural college, or polytechnical school —do you think there would be any students in Auckland who would avail themselves of such instruction? —Very few. 1243. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you formed any opinion as to the effect upon education generally of the granting of scholarships by the Education Board ? —I think the system under which scholarships are grauted in this district has had a very good effect indeed. 1244. Could you indicate briefly the direction in which the benefit is to be found ? —The best boys from the common schools have competed for the scholarships that have been offered, and those who were successful became entitled to free tuition at the Grammar School, with a payment of £30 a year besides. I know that these scholarships are very eagerly sought after. In many instances those who have come from the common schools, holding a scholarship for two years, have afterwards competed for what are called tho open scholarships, and have gained them, and been able to continue their education up to the ago of eighteen. In the upper class of the Grammar School, to which I referred just now, there are at the present time two, if not more, boys—l know there are two —who came from common schools, having gained scholarships there, and afterwards competed for the open scholarships, which they are entitled to retain until they are eighteen years of age. 1245. What effect do you think the system of granting such scholarships has upon the education in the primary schools generally? —I think a very good effect. The subjects of examination for the scholarships are confined to those in which the boys have beeu instructed in the common schools. They are not examined iv any subject outside of the ordinary course of a common school.

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1246. And you think the schools derive benefit from the competition which is induced by the offering of scholarships ? —I think there is a great competition for these scholarships—a great desire to obtain them. Of course there would be some exceptions, but I should say that the whole tone of the schools would be raised by the offering of these scholarships. 1247. Do you think that the scholarship system is at present sufficiently extended in its operations? —I do not think it is. It could be still further extended, in my opinion, with great advantage. 1248. Do you think that the amount of each scholarship is a suitable one ? —I am not sure whether it would not be better to make the amount smaller and incroase the number of scholarships. 1249. Professor Shand.] What is the amount ? —£3o besides a free education.

Hon. Colonel Haultain. Feb. 12,1879.

TiitritsDAY, 13th February, 1879. P-RESENT : Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Professor Salo, Professor Cook, Professor Shand, Eev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Dr. Hector, Dr. Wallis. Mr. Farquhar Macrae was sworn and examined. 1250. The Chairman.] You are the headmaster of the Auckland College and Grammar School?— I am. 1251. How long have you held that position ? —Por very nearly eight years. 1252. How long was the school established before you became headmaster?— Two years. 1253. When you became headmaster where was the school being held? —In Howe Street. 1254. How many pupils were on the roll immediately before you took charge ?—There had been enrolled at the commencement of the quarter which ended when I joined 29 lads, and as far as my memory serves me probably 20 were in attendance ; aud we opened with 150 in the new building. It was known that there would be a much larger number of lads, and this building was the only ono we could occupy. 1255. And your first quarter opened with 150 ? —Yes. 1256. How many are on the roll at present?— Over 200. Our roll for the current quarter is not made up, as many of our boys from the country have not yet come in. Our average last year was 220. 1257. Dr. Wallis.] Was not Dr. Kidd the headmaster who preceded you? —Yes. 1258. When Dr. Kidd ceased to be headmaster then there were only 29 boys on the roll ?—Not when Dr. Kidd resigned ; he was with us two years after I joined. 1259. The Chairman.] What was your educational experience before you received this appointment of headmaster ?—I had been for one year assistant classical master at the Elgin Academy, and was in charge of the boarding establishment as well as doing the work of assistant classical master. Por five years I was the headmaster of a school in Morpeth ; from Morpeth I came out here. In those days there was a proposal to establish a high school in Auckland, and certain men at Home were appointed to select a headmaster. The appointment was offered to mc; I accepted it, came out here, and remained iv the High School from 18G3 to 1871, when I joined the Board of Grammar School Commissioners. 1260. What are the special duties at present devolving upon the headmaster of the Auckland College and Grammar School ?—Such duties as ordinarily devolve upon headmasters of large public schools ; in my own case the additional duties required by our exceptional circumstances during the whole time I have been headmaster, —those exceptional circumstances entailing an amount of work and responsibility on tho headmaster that ordinarily headmasters are free from. In regard to what special classes I take year by year, I vary from one subject to another, from one class to another. Sometimes I have the highest class; frequently I have almost our lowest. I take different classes and subjects as I think may bo best for the general interest. 1261. I understand that you exercise a general superintendence over the whole school?—I know everything that is done, in every class, from the oldest to the youngest. 1262. Professor Cook.] You referred just now to exceptional circumstances which entailed additional duties to those which ordinarily devolve upon a headmaster: what are those exceptional circumstances ?—ln the first place, we have had a singularly unsuitable building all along; and iv the second place, considering the work we were trying to do, and which, to a certain extent, we succeeded in doing, we had a stafi' too small, and consisting to a very large extent of inexperienced men to begin with. 1263. The Chairman.] Perhaps you would inform the Commission now how the school is housed at present ?—We occupy three buildings:—the old District Court, in this neighbourhood; a little building immediately to the rear of the Supreme Court Buildings, once a Wesleyan Maori chapel; and a building belonging to the Scotch Church, situated about 200 yards off, in Symonds Street. Tho District Court we occupy by leave of the Judge of the District Court. For the other two buildings we pay rent. 12G4. What rent is paid for them? —I am not quite certain as to the sum, but I think we pay £30 for the Scotch Church building, aud 12s. or 15s. a week for the Maori chapel. 1265. What are the relations existing between yourself as headmaster and tho governing body?— I am not aware that there has been any absolute definition of the relation of the headmaster to the Board of Governors. I rather think there has been no such definition. But on the other hand I am not aware that in practice any harm has resulted therefrom. I presume, as long as the headmaster has

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the confidence of his governing body, the mere definition of the relation in which the one should stand to the other is not required. 12GG. Professor Shand.] You have not mentioned your tenure of office ?—I was appointed headmaster subject to giving six months' notice if I wished to leave, and receiving six months' notice if the Board should think proper to dispense with my services. 1267. The Chairman.] What are the relations which exist between you as headmaster and the other teachers?—l am, as headmaster, responsible for the arrangement of the work —for the course of study that is to be followed; I settle for each individual master what his particular work is to be, and such arrangements as I make are binding on the teachers. 1265. By whom are these masters appointed ? —They are appointed by the Board of Governors. The headmaster and all other masters are appointed by the Board of Governors. 1269. Dr. Wallis.] Are they not first of all recommended by you ?—There has never been an appointment made by the Board of Governors in which I have not concurred. Ido not think the Board would appoint a man whom I would not like to have. 1270. Professor Shand.] Does that apply also to the dismissal of officers?— There has been nothing defined ; but I should imagine that, as long as I had the confidence of the Board of Governors, they would not retain a man whose dismissal I would recommend. But there has been no occasion for such recommendation. 1271. Dr. Wallis.] In the appointment of masters you take the first step, and the governing body approve of what you do : in the dismissal of masters you are the first to move, aud the governing body approve of what you have done ? —No ; that is not the way. We are advertising now for an English master. Some fifty applications have come in. The Board of Governors will have these applications before them to-day. Ido not know what action they are going to take, but lam certain they will not appoint any man of whom I do not approve. 1272. Professor Shand.] Is it the custom to send you the testimonials of the applicants ? Have you to make a particular recommendation ? —-The testimonials of the applicants are invariably submitted to me, and my opinion is asked by the Board. 1273. You are asked to make a particular recommendation by the Board ? —I can hardly say there has been an invariable practice followed. • 1274. 1 merely wish to ascertain the custom, because it varies at different places ?—And it has varied with us. For instance :we got an English master in June last year. We had many applications. I did not feel at liberty to make any recommendation to the Board. I did not care to take on myself tho responsibility of saying that among the fifty or sixty applicants there was a man who would suit us, and I asked the Board to be relieved from the responsibility of recommending, and I was so relieved. 1275. That seems to have been a special case, and w rould not affect the custom. You asked to be exempted from complying with the usual custom ? —I asked to be exempted from the responsibility of making any recommendation. I have no doubt the Board will ask me to make some recommendation in the case of our present vacancy, and I shall be prepared to make such recommendation. 1276. The Chairman.] Do you think the present arrangement, whereby the governing body appoints the subordinate masters, is a satisfactory one to you as a headmaster ? —Perfectly. I say perfectly, this being understood: that the headmaster has the confidence of his governing body. In my own particular case it has worked to my entire satisfaction. 1277. Under these circumstances, I presume you would not suggest that any alteration should be made in the mode of appointing the masters under you ? —Speaking for myself, No. 1278. Is there a minimum age fixed for admission to the school ?—No. By a regulation of the original Board—a regulation in force before I joined tho Board —a certain preliminary examination was required, and there was a limit of age to ten years. On my suggestion the limit of age was left out, the amount of preliminary education required remaining as it was before. Now it is left to the discretion of the master to say whether a boy under ten years of age, if he can pass the requisite preliminary examination, should be admitted. If he is in good health I exercise my own discretion. Taking the average of the last six or seven years, it is probable we may have each year had ten boys under ten years ot age. 1279. But there is an entrance examination ? —Yes, which I have invariably subjected all young lads to. 1280. What is the nature of the examination?—lt is an exceedingly simple one —to read and write to the satisfaction of the headmaster, and to know the first four rules of arithmetic. 1281. Is there any division of the school into an upper and a lower department ? —-There has been for years past. Wc have had the names of " upper" and " lower" school for a number of years. 1282. Professor Shand.] How many forms are there in each division of the school ?—Until last year there were three classes in the lower school and three classes in the upper school, leaving out University graduates. Last year the three in the upper school became four. This year, I think, our nominal three will be really five classes. 1283. What are the relative numbers in these two divisions of the school ? —Without having the figures before me I can only give an approximate answer. Speaking of last year, for instance, roughly there were 120 boys in the lower school and 100 in the upper. 1284. The Chairman.] Are alternative courses of study offered to the pupils ?—Practically for these years past the lads who have come to us have dene what I advised them. I will give an illustration in the case of Latin. The Board of Governors have not made Latin compulsory, and yet on an average there are not four lads in the school who do not learn Latin if I think it desirable that they should do so. 1285. Professor Shand.] Is there any prescribed curriculum in the school ?—Certain subjects— classics, mathematics, English, and French (and chemistry at times, although not just now) —have been the subjects taught, but there has been no formal fixing of a curriculum in detail. The general

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subjects to be taught"were prescribed, I presume, by authority of the Board, and before I joined them ; but the Board have never interfered in the details of our work. 128 G. There is nothing, then, of what is usually known as a curriculum of study in the school ?— There is, and there has been all along since I have had to do with the school, a regular working according to a plan. That plan is determined in the first place by the necessities of the lads who join us at the commencement of the year, and is, to a certain extent, regulated by the requirements of the University examinations. 1287. I understand, then, that there is no fixed plan, but one that is drawn up at the beginning of each year by the headmaster ?—The work of the year, as far as it may have to be settled early in the year, is settled by the headmaster : invariably, in my case, with the help of my colleagues. 1288. The Chairman.] Practically, tho curriculum of study is left to you to decide upon, and the Board have not prescribed any particular course ?—They have prescribed the general subjects ; they have never interfered with details. 1289. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Are all boys who have reached approximately the same stage of general culture compelled in any one year to take all the same course ? Or do the boys in the school at the same time diverge upon separate lines, according to the desire of their parents, and their probablo future career?— There has been no compulsion in the matter. I have had no authority to compel any boy to learn Latin or mathematics ; but I have seldom, in my seven or eight years' experience, found a parent or a boy who did not follow my advice. 1290. Have you found it necessary to advise that divergent courses should be followed at the samo time ? —Very frequently. 1291. So that in effect divergent courses are being followed at the same time ? —ln a few cases where it appeared to me right in the interest of the boys so to advise it. 1292. In effect, is this divergence an exceptional thing in the case of one or two boys, now and then, or does it give a direction to the studies of the school in general ? —I think I have said already that in practice the wishes of the parents and boys and myself have gone together—that is to say, that they have chosen to put such confidence in my advice that there has been no practical difficulty in the matter. A few lads, for instance, have not learnt Latin at a particular stage when the majority of the class were learning Latin, and a few have been away from mathematics for certain reasons, and a few from English. But these have been exceptional cases. 1293. Professor Cook.] Is Greek generally taught in the school ? —"We had no Greek since 1872 until last year. About four or five months ago a number of the older lads —eight or nine of them— asked for instruction iv Greek, and we had a Greek class until the end of last year. 129 L With the exception of that small number, it is not taught in the upper school?—lt has been deliberately not taught all along. These boys asked for it; they were entitled to have it under our deed of trust, and I was exceedingly glad to find them anxious for it. It was taught by myself, generally out of school hours. 1295. Professor Shand.] As there is apparently no fixed curriculum, does not that necessitate frequent changes in the time-table of the school? —No. In saying there was no fixed curriculum, I simply meant the Commission to understand that there was no formal laying down or saying that this thing is to be done, and that thing is to be done. The general subjects of instruction—classics, mathematics, English, chemistry, and so on —are fixed by the Board, who say that certain things shall be taught, and that other things shall not be taught. In so far as there is a fixed curriculum, the particular work to be done in a particular year is determined by the needs of that year. 1296. Professor Cook.] "Will you explain why Greek was not taught?— Our lads—and I presume they are not different in this respect from those in other parts of the colony —stay so short a time at school that years ago I came to the conclusion that such benefit as might be derived from the study of an old tongue would, during the short time the boys were at school, be obtained better by a close study of the one tongue, the Latin, than by a less full study of Latin and Greek. That is the broad ground ■ —that the purposes of a classical education would be better served by the more thorough study of one than by the less thorough study of the two. 1297. Professor Drown.] You said you had not taught Greek since 1572 until last year. In the University Calendar for 1876 there is an appendix of examinations at affiliated institutions, and I find a Greek paper amongst your papers: was tbis set to an outside student or to one of your own ?—To one of our own students, who took his degree last year. He intends to be a clergyman, and was anxious to learn Greek. He was taught by the classical master after hours —it was done outside. Until this class was started about five months ago, we had no teaching of Greek except to this young man out of hours. 1298. The Chairman.] Could you inform the Commission, as a specimen of the education, what is the curriculum for your highest class at present? —I should like to refer to our summary of work for last year. Eor tho present year I should pass no opinion upon our work; we have just opened for the year. But lamin a position to give you any information you may desire about the work of that class for last year and all previous years. I will speak roughly, not binding myself to be absolutely accurate, of the first class, irrespective of the University department. In Latin they read portions of Horace, Livy, and Cicero, and were occupied in translations from English into Latin, and read certain portions of ancient history. Iv mathematics they did a moderate amount of arithmetic—■ probably spent an hour a week over a general paper in arithmetic. In algebra they used the large edition of Todhunter, the large edition of trigonometry, and spent some time over mechanics. They had Euclid once a week. Probably there might be a revisal of Euclid work. Their Euclid work was confined to a paper perhaps once a month ; but they were in the habit of getting regular geometrical exercises. 1299. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Can you state what parts of the text-books you have mentioned in mathematics were read last year in the first class, which, as I understand, is exclusively of University students ? —ln the first class ? In the first class there are undergraduates of the University, and there are those who are not undergraduates. The exact portions of these text-books done by the members of the first class I shall be able to tell you in a few minutes.

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1300. Professor Cook.] Could you not tell us roughly about where they arrived at the end of the year? —Practically they have exhausted Todhunter's large edition of Algebra. Perhaps my answer will be best understood if I answer in this way : With the exception of those who are undergraduates of the University, and who have certain college examinations to pass, I may say that all through the work of the first class in mathematics was confined to the University junior scholarship examination. We have gone beyond it —mechanics, for instance. 1301. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What text-book were they using in mechanics? —Todhunter. 1302. The Chairman.] I understand you will furnish the curriculum of study with regard to all the classes ? —With all the work done last year aud any year since I joined. 1303. Professor Sale.] I should like to ask whether in each separate class the pupils are supposed to have attained to the same proficiency in all the branches of study which they take together — whether, for instance, a pupil who is advanced to the standard of any particular class in classics must also be advanced to the standard of the same class in mathematics ?—ln the upper school the lads work together in every subject in each class, with few exceptions. In the lower school, provision has been made in this fashion: The lads in three classes of the lower school are classified for their English. There is an independent classification for arithmetic. A lad may be in the fourth class — which is the highest class in the lower school —in his English subjects, and yet so far back in arithmetic that it would be profitable for him to be in the fifth or sixth. The plan is very simple: the arithmetic of the lower school, fourth, fifth, and sixth classes, is taught at the same time. 130-1. Professor Sale. | But there is no such extra classification at work in the upper school ? — The lads work together in the upper school. 1305. In the upper school all the members of the same class do the same work in all subjects ? —Yes. 1306. Professor Shand.] And are the separate classes alw rays taught separately? —No, not always ; we have not the staff to do it. They are frequently put together. 1307. Bey. W. J. Habens.] When two classes are under the care of the same teacher, is the practice followed of allowing one class to prepare work, as it is called ? —Never. 1308. What is your opinion of the practice of allowing one class to prepare work while the other is under direct tuition ? —I have never done it myself, nor allowed it to be done. 1309. Is your practice in this respect founded upon a decided opinion which you entertain ?— Certainly. 1310. Professor Sale.] Does it often happen that a boy is sufficiently advanced in one subject to be moved up into.a higher class, but is kept back by being less forward in other subjects?—ln practice, No. This is the course I pursue: If p, lad is found well up in one subject, say in his Latin, so that he ought to go into a certain class judging of him by his Latin only, he is usually encouraged and aided to work up the backward subjects and to got into the class which from his Latin lie is fitted to enter. 1311. Is no difficulty found iv getting a boy forward in that manner ?—Practically none, except additional work for the masters. All that depends upon the kind of relation between the masters and their boys. 1312. You are aware that in most schools, where of course the staff is sufficient for the purpose, there is a complete division of the work ; the school is divided, say, in the subject of classics in one way, and iv the subjects of mathematics or science in another way, and a boy may be iv a high class in one and low in the other. Would it, in your opinion, be an improvement to have the same distribution of work in your college ? —The question is not one of practice with us. The thing simply could not be done. 1313. Owing to the want of staff ?—Yes. 1314. Professor Drown.] You say that there are five classes in the upper school and three in the lower: would it take eight years for a boy of ordinary capacity to go through the whole school, say beginning at ten ? Is that the meaning of the division, so that they may move up year by year from the one to the other? The ordinary practice is to move up year by year, so that a boy of ordinary capacity would take eight years to go from the lowest form of the lower school to the highest form of the upper school ?—We have had no instance of that. Our boys take a much shorter time than that. And when I spoke of there being probably five classes this year, I was simply answering your question about the number of classes in the upper school. lam afraid our three will become five from the fact of several boys of the first class returning again as they have done this year. 1315. Professor Shand.] Did that include the collegiate department as well as the school strictly speaking ?—I cannot say that I appreciate the difference you make between the collegiate department and the other. 131(5. The instruction meant for undergraduates would belong to the collegiate department of the school?— The instruction meant for undergraduates is given in the first class. 1317. So that those five include the classes for undergraduates as well ? —Yes ; as we are at this moment. 13 IS. Professor Drown.] Is Latiu taught in the lower school ? —ln the upper class of the lower school Latin is taught; it is begun in that class. 1319. The Chairman.] How many different subjects does a pupil study concurrently as a general rule ? —Only two in the younger classes of the lower school—simply English and arithmetic. In the upper classes of the lower school, in addition to those, Latin and French : we do not happen to have French at this moment, but it is part of our scheme aud we are waiting for a master; and above the fourth class, Latin, mathematics, French, and, for years past until last year, one branch of science, ordinarily chemistry. 1320. What study of history is conducted in the school?— The history that is ordinarily taught in schools. 1321. Is it simply English history, or do you teach Eoman, Grecian, and English history in the one class ? —Ordinarily one of the common text-books—that is, text-books for special periods—and in the upper school boys have been reading ancient history.

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1322. Professor Shand.] Do you include geography under history ?—Tes. 1323. The Chairman.] How many hours a week do boys attend the school? —Five hours a day for five days a week. 1324. Do you know whether many pupils receive assistance in the preparation of their work out of school, from others than members of their own family ?—Not many. Sometimes ou my own recommendation parents endeavour to get paid help, but Ido not think it is a common thing. Generally, and in fact almost invariably, they are dependent on the assistance they may get from their parents. 1325. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it desirable, as a general rule, that assistance should be given to pupils out of school?—I think it would be very much better for lads to trust to their own exertions at home, and get such help as they may find from the encouragement of their parents. Let them work for themselves. 1320. The Chairman.] What are the particular arrangements in the school for the teaching of science? —Some years ago, and until Mr. Kirk left and went to Wellington, botany was a part of our regular course of instruction ; and, until April of last year, for many years chemistry was a portion of our course ; but there has been no teaching of science since April last year. 1327. Professor Cook.] By whom was the chemistry taught?—By Mr. Kent, the master of the fourth class, who is an admirable chemist and a successful teaclier of chemistry, and gold medallist of the Sydney University. It was no part of his duty as master of the fourth class, but he taught chemistry and worked hard. His successor, Mr. Heath, who was with us for only three months when he left for the Girls' High School, also took chemistry classes. 1328. Professor Shand.] Have you proper apparatus and appliances ? —No more proper apparatus than we have proper buildings ; but we had apparatus and we made it work. 1329. Is there a laboratory in the school ?—We had one in the old Barrack building. The masters' common room had its little closet of chemical apparatus and appliances of one kind and another. We have no room for one now. 1330. Professor Cook.] Is there provision for a laboratory in the new buildings for which tenders have lately been called ?—I have no doubt there is. I speak with all modesty about this new building. It was determined upon during the last month when I was away from Auckland, and I am not well acquainted with the plans. 1331. Professor Shand.] Have tenders been called for ?—I believe so ;I am not sure. 1332. The plans have not been submitted to you by the Board ? —I saw them before I went away, but it was found advisable afterwards, on the motion of Mr. O'Korke, to alter the plans. 1333. The Chairman.] I think as a matter of fact tho architect was instructed to confer with you before he prepared his plans ?—And did. 1331. I believe you were not here when an alteration was made in consequence of the Board having expressed an opinion that there ought to be a boarding establishment attached to the school ? —No. From what I have seen of the plans I believe there will be ample room for chemical apparatus. 1335. Professor Cook.] But is a room being specially fitted up for use as a laboratory ? —I do not know that the architect's attention has been called to the proper fitting of one room as a laboratory. 1336. The Chairman.] Is drawing taught as part of the school course ?—lt has not been taught during tho last two or three years. 1337. Professor Cook.] AVas it taught before as part of the ordinary school course?— For some years it was taught as part of the ordinary school course. 1338. The Chairman.] Why has it been discontinued ? —The master we had, Mr. Hoyte, went to Dunedin, and we have not been able to get another. On this matter of drawing there is one other thing to mention : Nearly two years ago arrangements were made whereby a master who teaches drawing here got the use of a certain room in the Barracks, and taught such boys as wished to learn drawing, they paying him. 1339. Professor Cook.] Has class singing ever been taught as part of the ordinary school course? —In the youngest classes, until the end of last year. 1340. The Chairman.] Is there a library connected with the school ?—There is about £60 or £70 worth of books, many of them works of reference —books which lads could not get for themselves, and which the older ones and masters make use of. 1311. Are these books accessible to the pupils ? —Yes, when required. 1342. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Must they refer to them in the school, or can they take them home ? —They are always welcome to them if they wish to take them, or ask for them ; and very frequently lads are instructed either by myself or some of the other masters to take them and make use of them. They are there for masters and boys. 1343. The Chairman.] Is there a gymnasium attached to the school, and are gymnastics prescribed as part of the school course? —-We had a gymnasium in the Barracks ; we are in the street now. 1344. Professor Cook.] Is there provision for a gymnasuim in the new building ? —There will be. It is an accident that we are without gymnastics just now : that is to say, the governors and headmaster will, I believe, be anxious to see a regular course of gymnastic instruction. 1345. Were gymnastics prescribed as part of the school course, or were they an extra ?—They were part of the school course during a part of the time we were in the Barracks, and will be again when we have the accommodation. 1346. The Chairman.] Has the curriculum of the school been planned with the object of bringing it into relation with the University course ?—We have had constant reference to the University course in the framing of our curriculum. 1347. What object had the Grammar School in view in seeking affiliation with the University of New Zealand ? —-I can speak for myself. I cannot speak the mind of the governing body at the time. I recommended the Board —the Commissioners in those days —to seek for affiliation with the University, because it was the published intention of the University authorities to devote the sum of £300 a year for a certain number of years to the aiding of educational institutions in different parts of the colony

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Naturally we were desirous to get that money, and the application for affiliation was made and entertained. 1348. How long did you receive that subsidy ? —From 1873 until, according to tho University Act, subsidies ceased to be given. 1349. Professor Cook.] You received the £300 for some time: was it given on condition of any special subject being taught ? I mean, was it given principally to help you to provide for teaching physical science ?—lt was given to us, I doubt not, on the same conditions on which it was given to other affiliated institutions throughout the colony. Ido not know that such a condition as you mention was made. 1350. As a matter of fact, how was the £300 applied ? —ln the years 1872 and 1873, our then Board of Governors on my advice spent a portion of the £300 in evening classes. We had got the money from the University on the understanding that it was to help to do University work, and I advised the Board to see if there was a sufficient number of young men anxious to go on with University work who would study with us in the evenings; and for two years the £300 was spent in part on those evening classes. At the end of the second year I advised the Board to discontinue the evening classes, and to use the £300 in increasing the salaries of such men as we had, and in helping us to get another, which was done. 1351. I suppose the withdrawal of the £300 has merely had the effect of lessening the salaries of those gentlemen ? —There has been no lessening. 1352. Then the withdrawal of the £300 practically produced no result ? —-There would have been £300 more if it had not been withdrawn; but the endowments have increased a little in value, and there has been no lessening of salaries. 1353. Professor Shayid.] Eeferring to your answer as to the conditions on which the £300 was given by the University, I will read the following extract from the letter of the governing body applying for affiliation : "ln the event of affiliation to the University of New Zealand, the headmaster, the classical master, the senior assistant-master, and the lecturer in botany w rill take classes in mathematics, classics, mental and moral philosophy, natural philosophy, and botany and geology respectively. Mr. Hugh Hart Lusk will deliver lectures on general history, and Dr. J. B. Nicholson on chemistry, acoustics, and other branches of physics." Have those conditions been fulfilled ? —Tes. 1354. Are they still being acted upon, notwithstanding the withdrawal of the £300 ? —That was answered some time ago. Evening classes were discontinued after two years' experience of them. 1355. Professor Cook.] Because they fell off in numbers ?—I came to the conclusion, after two years' experience of them, that it would bo a better expenditure for the University if the money were spent on the work of the day, instead of the work of the night. 1356. Professor Shand.] Was this sum used in providing remuneration for the teachers of the evening classes ? —Yes. All of them were paid for the evening work, except the headmaster. 1357. And those classes were intended to prepare students for University examinations ? —Yes. The first year, 1872, I took the evening class in mathematics. I began with thirty students, and in a month I got twenty-four out of the thirty, with their consent, to cease to attend my class. I said to them, "I am here for the one purpose of doing University work. You are not prepared for it. lam very sorry —you must go away." So they went away ; and I continued with five or six students until the end of the year. 1358. Professor Sale.] Were these students undergraduates of the University ?—No. Next year I did not take the mathematical class myself. One of our masters had it. He began with nine students, and ended with two —Miss Edger and Mr. Moss. It was in that way I first became acquainted with Miss Edger. 1359. Professor Cook.] You say that the £300 was applied in the first instance to these University classes, aud afterwards generally to the day work in the College. Can you tell us what remuneration Mr. Kirk received as teacher of botany ?—To the best of my recollection £50 a year. 13G0. That was before affiliation. He got nothing additional after affiliation ?—I am not prepared to say. Ido not remember. My impression is that his salary was not raised. 1361. How many hours per week did he give you ?—lt is seven years ago, and I should require to look into the matter to answer you accurately. Possibly two or three hours in the week. 1362. Had he any share in the evening tuition ?—No. 1363. After Mr. Kirk went to Wellington, and when your chemistry was taught by Mr. Kent, that was the only natural or physical science taught in the school : did Mr. Kent get anything extra on account of this teaching ?—As master of the fourth class it was not his duty to teach chemistry; but he was an admirable chemist, and, at my suggestion, went into that work very heartily. The only remuneration, if it can be called remuneration, which Mr. Kent got for his teaching of chemistry, was a small sum I asked the Board to give him out of their limited funds, in appreciation of his work. It was an honorarium of £25. 1364. Professor Drown.] After the evening classes ceased, did undergraduates who were attending those classes pass into the day-school work ? —1 am not prepared to say that there was a single undergraduate in the evening classes. 1365. I think you mentioned Miss Edger ?—She was not an undergraduate then. 1366. But did she pass into the school ? —ln 1873 the evening class ceased. I went and advised Mr. Edger to send his daughter to us, and she came in 1874. 1367. The Chairman.] Where were the evening classes held? — Some in the Provincial Council Chambers, others in the Barracks. 1368. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you found the presence of female students the cause of any difficulty ? Seeing that the undergraduates are now being instructed, as I understand, in the highest class of the school, what arrangements are made for receiving female students for the University ?— They arc received just like ordinary students. We have no means of making any special arrangement. 1369. Then, in fact, a female student reading with you now would read in the upper class, and attend the class regularly ?—A young lady was doing so during several months of last year, The only

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special arrangement I made was an understanding that she was to come three minutes after the proper hour, and leave three minutes before. 1370. Do you see any objection to an extension of the mixed system, which is thus introduced, to other parts of the school? —I am not prepared to go into the general question of whether mixed schools of boys and girls would be better than separate schools. 1371. Is there in any other part of your school a similar exceptional instance of a girl attending the school ? —No. 1372. The Chairman.] What number of teachers does the governing body allow you to assist in carrying on the school ? —Three masters in the lower school, and three in the upper, and a French master. 1373. Are any of these teachers exclusively devoted to University work ?—Not one. 1374. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are they, in relation to University work, on exactly the same footing with regard to the governing body and headmaster as when they are doing ordinary school work ?—On the same footing. 1375. The Chairman.] How many of the teachers do University work in connection with their ordinary duties ?—I speak for last year—this is a new year. Por last year, the headmaster, classical master, mathematical master, and English master. Four of the staff, I may say, have been engaged in doing University work along with their other work. 1376. How many undergraduates have you at present attending ?—We have none this year; they have not come back yet. Last year, of undergraduates iv attendance, we had two out of ten on our books. 1377. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Did their presence require any division of the studies into higher and secondary work respectively ? —Provision was made for the teaching of the work in which they were to be examined by the University at the end of the year. 1378. Special provision ?—They came there with certain work requiring to be done, and provision was made for the doing of that work. 1379. Professor Cook.] Did the remaining members of the first class do exactly the same work as they did ? —These did something in addition. 1380. The Chairman.] As far as you are aware, had the teachers any previous experience in University work, either as students or teachers ?—They all had. 1381. Professor Sale.] Tou mean that they had been connected with other Universities before they were connected with the University of New Zealand ? —Tes. 1382. Professor Drown.] Can you state what previous experience each of the teachers engaged in University work at your College had in University work, as students or teachers ?—lt will be sufficient if you refer to those of last year. The classical master was a student of the University of Glasgow for four years. The mathematical master was a student at the Sydney University for three years. They have both taken degrees. These, with myself, were the only teachers who did University work for last year. In former years we had Mr. Kent, Mr. Curnow, and others. 1383. I thought there was an English master engaged?— The English master, in the early part of last year, did University work. He was a Bachelor of Laws, with honours, at the University of Melbourne. He was with us some months last year. 1384. The Chairman.] Has your staff of masters been found sufficient to train the undergraduates for the University examinations ? —I should be disposed to say, let the results testify. If you mean to ask whether in my opinion we have had a sufficient staff for the work we have been trying to do, I should say at once, No—that the staff has been insufficient. I speak for the other masters when I say that it is owing to a course of excessive labour, continued persistently for years, that we have been able to carry on. 1385. Professor Sale.] And has there been much additional labour thrown upon you by the fact of your connection with the University as an affiliated institution ? —There has been. 1386. Professor Cook.] Such additional labour as to at all interfere with the efficiency of the school as a school ? —I would not have allowed that. 1387. Dr. Wallis.] I think you said you had only two undergraduates ?—Two in attendance on classes last year. 1388. Professor Sale.] And the additional labour caused by those two produced a good deal of pressure upon the staff? —Oh, no ; but that the University work for these years past, not the last year only, and the demand made upon the staff by the requirements of these University undergraduates, added very seriously to the work which they would have had simply as grammar-school masters. Perhaps you will understand it better in this way: We should have much less work if we had had no undergraduates for these years past. They were here; they wanted education ; if anybody could give it, it must be ourselves, and we did what we could. 1389. Professor Cook.] I suppose the pressure was principally felt by the masters in the way of preparation at home for the teaching next day ? —Partly in that way. 1390. In what other way could it be felt if they were taught in the ordinary school class?— lam talking of last year. They were not all taught in the same class formerly. One boy came before another, one stayed on after 4 o'clock, and so on. It was extra work for us all. I would like to explain about the two undergraduates last year. We had only two. Our grammar school increased in numbers from 200 to 220. I encouraged no undergraduates to come last year. We had not the staff, and we were overworked. I believe under more favourable circumstances we could have had from ten to twelve in attendance last year, but I did not encourage them to come. 1391. Professor Shand.] Supposing you had no University work to do, would the present staff in your opinion be sufficient for the school as a secondary school? —No. 1392. The Chairman.] Are there any affiliated institutions in the neighbourhood of Auckland besides the Auckland College and Grammar School ?—There are three others —the Wesley College, Three Kings, St. John's College, and the Church of England Grammar School. 1393. Do you find that these institutions in competition with you have drawn undergraduate* from your school ?—No. 9—H. 1.

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1394. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I think you have already said that special instruction is given to undergraduates as they need it —as distinct from their position as mere schoolboys ?—We are bound to give special instruction to them. That is to say, if we receive undergraduates at all it is our duty to give them proper instruction. If we could not give it my course would be very plain: I should say, " We are not in a position to give these undergraduates the instruction which they require." 1395. Is there any special instruction given to undergraduates to prepare them for competing for honours in the University—l am speaking of honours as distinct from the pass examination ?— Some of our students went up for the senior scholarship examination, and one went up this last year for honours. 1396. And was special preparation provided for them ?—All the help we could give them in every form was given them. Their reading was deliberately directed to the purpose of going in for these honour examinations. 1397. Professor Sale.] Did they read in the same class with the ordinary first class —I am referring to last year ? —The one who went in for honours at the last examination was a graduate of the year before, and he was acting during part of the year as one of our assistant masters, and studying in private under the direction of those with whom he had worked before. Those who went in for senior scholarship examinations in former years were our ordinary scholars. 1398. Professor Drown.] Are there many undergraduates who are keeping terms without attending at the school—keeping terms simply by passing the annual examination?—We have tenor eleven on our roll. Of course, they may come up at the end of the year for examination, or they may not. They complete a year only when they come up and pass. There are ten or eleven undergraduates still nominally here. My own opinion is that, given a proper staff, and every one of these ten or eleven will yet finish his University course. They are away in business and in offices, but lam not aware that a single one has finally dropped the University course. 1399. Professor Cook.] At your annual examination for undergraduates, do you examine the students separately from the first class, or do they take certain papers in your ordinary school examination ? —We have invariably had an annual college examination, distinct from the ordinary examinations. 1400. Who have examined? —Our own staff. 1401. Por the college examinations ? —lnvariably. 1402. Por the school examinations you have had outside examiners ?—Generally. 1403. Professor Shand.] Can you tell me whether many of your students have been scholars of the University—held junior scholarships ?—Only one has held the junior scholarship under the new regulations. 1404. I mean all through. Tou mentioned that there were ten undergraduates on the roll; I should like to know how many of these hold or have held junior scholarships ? —Only one has held a junior scholarship. I think there has been only one examination. There was a second of which we do not know the result. 1405. Well, I will use the term scholarships ? —ln the year 1874, two scholarships in mathematics ; in the year 1874, a scholarship in mathematics ; in the year 1875, in natural philosophy and chemistry ; in 1875, in mathematics ; general scholarship in 1878; and two senior scholarships in 1877. 140 G. I wish to know the number who have held scholarships, and how many have not ?—Pour separate students have held one or more scholarships, and six have not held scholarships. 1407. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you describe the matriculation examination with reference to subjects, and the scope in each subject? —Of course, in the matriculation examination we are bound by the regulations of the University, which say an examination must be taken in Latin, arithmetic, English, and three other subjects. 1408. Can you define the standard of the matriculation examination with reference to the character of the papers set, and the percentage of marks required?— The University has imposed a very grave responsibility on tho affiliated institntions, in committing to them the matriculation examination. We here have felt this responsibility, and no one has been matriculated who has not shown such knowledge iv his examination as would warrant us in saying, in all good faith, that with fair ordinary work he could complete the first section of his examination in two years. The principle is the same in a yearly examination. A lad with us would not pass his first year who would not show such knowledge as in our opinion would warrant us in certifying to the University that after another year's work, with fair diligence, he would pass his University examination. 1409. Dr. Hector J] How is the examination conducted in practice?—lt is a written examination. 1410. In examining these papers do you affix marks to them ?—We ordinarily do. 1411. Aud what proportion .of these marks do you consider passes—l am talking of matriculation ? —We have not thought it necessary to affix marks in the matriculation examination. Everything depends on the principle on which a man marks. I know my own marks, but lam not prepared to attach any value to the marks of another, whose system I do not know. 1412. Tou have no means of affording the Commissioners information that would enable them to compare your matriculation examination, as far as the standard is concerned, with those held in other places ?—I think it is probable I should be able to furnish the Commissioners with copies of almost every examination we have ever held. 1413. The Chairman.] How often do you hold matriculation examinations ?—We have engaged to hold them four times a year. 1414. Professor Drown.] Do you print the papers each time ? —No. We have never printed the matriculation papers as such, but we have generally printed the undergraduate papers once a year. I should have no hesitation next week in holding a matriculation examination for anybody who wished to come up. 1415. So that you hold the matriculation if any one turns up ?—We are bound to hold it four times a year, and I encourage people to come then only ; but, if there is any occasion for holding it at any other time, it can be done.

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1416. The. Chairman.] Have you made any alteration in the curriculum of study in order to bring your school into harmony with the University of New Zealand ? —We have of course year by year had to make arrangements for the teaching of the subjects prescribed by the University. 1417. Professor Shand.] Is tho plan of study, so far as it has been arranged, or as it is arranged year by year, defined or fixed upon with reference to preparing the pupils for the University course ? —Certainly : not in the youngest classes. I would say, in general, that the function of the lower school is to prepare for the upper school. 1418. My meaning is, whether that is the sole aim of the school as a school—to prepare for the University ?—Certainly not. 1419. Professor Cook.] But I think you said all of the boys in the highest class were doing work such as would fit them to compete for the University junior scholarship ?—That was the work last year. 1420. And is that generally your object from year to year? —No, not always. I think the teacher has a very much higher function than that —to prepare his pupils for life. These things came by the way, and we took them. 1421. Professor Shand.] I think the object of the question is this : Before the University existed the school had certain aims, and those aims were expressed by the plan of study and the time-table of the school. Well, after the University came into existence, was the plan of the school altered in any way in order to adapt it to prepare students for the University ? —The plan of the lower school has not beei^ altered, but the plan of tho upper school has. As the requirements of our students necessitated work of this kind or that kind, such requirements had to be provided for. 1422. Professor Sale.] Take an instance : Has the classical work done in the senior class from year to year been that prescribed for junior scholarships? Tou remember that in the early times, when scholarships were not junior and senior, certain distinct classical work used to be prescribed—certain books, at that time : did your senior class take that work because it had been prescribed by the University for junior scholarships?—l should require to go back to tho record of years to answer you definitely what the first class was doing then. I have no doubt, if there was certain Latin work specially prescribed in former years, we should be doing that work, unless there were good reasons to the contrary. 1423. Did you find that the classical work prescribed during those early years of the University took the boys away from work which they would naturally have done if that work had not been prescribed ?—No. 1424. Professor Shand.] At one time I think candidates were examined for scholarships in a great variety of subjects, and at another time tho number of subjects was restricted to one, I think —at all events to a very limited number : did you accommodate the arrangement of your school to the conditions of these different examinations ? I mean, at the time that the University required an examination in a great number of subjects for scholarships, and at the time when it required only one subject, did the plan of study in your school remain the same, or was it altered to suit those different requirements of the University ? Was your general course of study broad or narrow according as the University prescribed ? —Certainly not. I may add that I have never consciously allowed the claims of any examination whatever to interfere with what I thought would be the best course of education for the boys. 1425. The Chair?nan.] In arranging the course of study, have the wishes of parents been in any way deferred to, or has the course of study been simply left to your own judgment ? —-In general, the course of study is prescribed —it says certain subjects are to be taught. 1426. And parents, I presume, have not interfered ?—There has been no practical interference on the part of parents. 1427. How many of your present staff are University graduates ?—Three, and there is one vacancy in the staff. 1428. Is there any considerable variation from year to year in the number of pupils attending the school, or does the average keep the same?— The attendance has been steadily increasing for the last four years, the largest increase being last year. 1429. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Could you indicate any special causes for the gradual increase ? — The increase has been so steady during these three or four years that I would rather let it speak for itself. 1430. Dr. Wallis.] That being the case, would it not be desirable that we should have more than one grammar school in Auckland ? —That is a general question. I have not entertained it. I should be glad to give my views on it to the Commission after a little thought. I would not be prepared to say right off that two weak institutions would be better than one strong one. 1431. Professor Cook.] Do you not consider that there is a second grammar school in the neighbourhood of Auckland in the Church of England Grammar School, Parnell ? —There is one in Parnell. 1432. The Chairman.] What is the proportion between the number on your roll and the daily attendance ? —I should say, speaking roughly, that, excepting in bad weather, 90 per cent, attend. 1433. Are there any special circumstances affecting the regularity of the attendance?—No special circumstances affecting us that would not affect other schools in Auckland. 1434. Bey. W. J. Habens.] But are there any special circumstances in Auckland which would make it different from otber places ? —I. know of none. 1435. Dr. Wains'] Do you think it desirable that the Grammar School should confine itself to grammar-school work ?—Certainly. 1436. And that there should be a college with a staff of professors and teachers ?—The grammarschool work and the college work we have been doing, because, to be done at all here, it must be done with our staff. 1437. Do you think it would be desirable to have a college here with a regular staff of professors ? —If you mean by that an institution in which there are a number of men who are relieved from the elementary work to do the higher work, certainly.

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1438. I mean that we should have in Auckland the same advantage they have in Christchurch and Dunedin ? —Certainly. 1439. Professor Conk.] And should that college in your opinion be an institution absolutely separate from the school, such as Canterbury College and Otago University ? —Absolutely separate, excepting in this sense: that, as part of a public establishment for education, secondary and other schools should be working up to it. 1440. Yes ; but that there should be no necessary connection otherwise between the two ? —That is to say, that the men doing University work in the college should not, as our men have been doing here, do elementary work besides. I should wish to see adequate provision made for giving higher education here. I should wish to see such public provision that there should be men especially devoted to higher education. 1441. I want to understand whether you would wish this institution to be an upper department of the Auckland College and Grammar School, or whether you think it should be an entirely separate institution ?—I see no reason why it should be the upper department of the Auckland College and Grammar School. 1442. Dr. Hector.] Are you talking of what you would like to see, or do you think, under the present conditions of the Auckland District, that the Grammar School should be relieved from its University work at the present time? —The matter did not present itself in that light at all. 1443. Is that your opinion—that, under the present circumstances of the Auckland District, that is to say, considering the amount of endowments and the extent of the demand for higher education, it is desirable that an establishment should be formed, separate from the Grammar School, for affording University education?—l think that this part of the colony ought to be put in the same position with reference to higher education that the Middle Island is in. 1444. Do you think there is a demand in this district for higher education requiring the establishment of an independent college ? —I think there is a demand for higher education. 1445. Professor Cook ] Such a demand, do you think, as would justify the Government making the necessary provision? —I think that has been shown by the history of all these years past. 1446. Professor Ulrich.] Do you think that the University of New Zealand should continue in its present form as an examining body, or that there should be another University ?—I should say one University for the colony, and colleges in the different centres of population ; the means of getting the secondary and higher education being brought withiu the reach of as many people as possible all the colony over. 1447. The Chairman.] I understand you to mean that there should be only one University granting degrees ? —Tes. 1448. Dr. Hector.] Would you allow graduates to pass an examination without reference to where or how they obtained their education? —Attendance is bound to be required at certain classes, but for the ordinary arts curriculum I should certainly allow anybody to get the University certificate of knowledge who showed that he possessed the knowledge. 1449. Professor Sale.] In that case affiliated institutions would be unnecessary ?—I think it is a great pity there have been affiliated institutions. They always appeared to me to be an illogical addition to an examining body. 1450. The Chairman.] Could you give the Commission an approximate estimate of the proportion of pupils drawn from tho professional, trading, and operative classes ?—Generally, I should say that the school is made use of by all classes ; but I will furnish a detailed statement. 1451. What are the fees charged at present ? —Eight guineas a year —two guineas a quarter. 1452. What arrangement do you carry out with regard to vacations and occasional holidays ?— We have seven weeks vacation at midsummer ; nearly a week at Easter ; barely any vacation at midwinter —a day or two usually, never more than a week; and beyond the usual public holidays an occasional holiday, which does not occur very often. 1453. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it desirable that the work of the school should go on with so little interruption, in the form of vacation, from Easter to Christmas ? —I think it would be very much better to have a longer break between Easter and Christmas than we have had. I think it would be better for the health of the boys, and for their education. 1454. Professor Shand.] Would it answer the same purpose if you had a longer vacation in the summer time, when the weather is finer ? —We have a longer vacation than any other school here. I do not think it would be wise, considering the feelings of parents, to lengthen the summer holidays. I do not think it would be judicious to extend the holidays beyond the seven weeks we give at present. 1455. Professor Cook.] Tou are aware that in many places —certainly in Canterbury—it is usual to divide the year into three terms. There is a holiday of about seven weeks at Christmas ; then they work for thirteen weeks, have three weeks' holiday, work thirteen weeks again, have three weeks' holiday, and work thirteen weeks again; so that the year is divided into three terms of thirteen weeks each, with a vacation of seven weeks at Christmas, and two vacations of three weeks each between the other terms. Do you not consider that such an arrangement as that would be much better than the one you pursue here ? —I am inclined to say that that would be a better arrangement, especially as I have heard men who have been working under that arrangement testify that it works very much better than the four quarters. 1456. But you are aware that the practice not only prevails largely in the South, but is coming very much into use in England? —I am not aware. 1457. The Chairman.] In your opinion are the present buildings you are making use of suitable for school purposes? —No. 1458. Is there a sufficient allowance made by the governing body for procuring maps, models, diagrams, and scientific apparatus and specimens?— The governing body are as good to us as their funds will allow them to be. 1459. Do they supply you with maps, models, diagrams, &c?—ln so far as they are asked for, they do. They supply us with all we ask for of these things.

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1460. Professor Cook.] Is your supply sufficient, or are you prevented for asking for more by the knowledge that there are not sufficient funds ? —-We have not sufficient apparatus. 1461. Where is the deficiency? Have you sufficient maps, for example?-—We have quite a sufficient supply of maps ; but the word "apparatus" has been used, which I should imagine means scientific appliances. We have not a liberal supply of these. 1462. The Chairman.] What are the arrangements for the periodical examination of the school ?— There has been almost every year a public examination by outsiders—examiners appointed by the Board of Governors; —as far as I remember in every year but 1877. 1463. Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability of a general system of inspection and examination of secondary schools ?—Tes; I think it would be exceedingly desirable that all secondary schools throughout the colony should be examined by experts. 1464. Professor Cook.] And inspected, as distinguished from examined? —I do not think I would make a distinction : examined and inspected if you like. My opinion is this :An examination by men competent to see into the working of secondary schools is exceedingly desirable, and an examination by laymen is of no value whatever. The secondary schools ought to be examined, but examined by capable men. 1465. Inspection is something different from examination. By inspection I understand an inspection and overlooking of the school during the time of its ordinary work by the masters. I mean an inspection at the hands of a stranger, whilst the masters are doing their ordinary work. Have you formed any opinion as to that being desirable? —Certainly it is. Igo further and say that all men who have any belief in their own work would be glad to have inspection and examination. 1466. The Chairman.] Have you formed any idea as to the authority that should appoint persons to inspect such schools as yours ? By wliom should they be appointed —by the Government or the New Zealand University ?—I am not prepared to make a suggestion on that matter. It is exceedingly difficult to get a competent person. 1467. Professor Shand.] Do you think that more than one person would be required as a rule to conduct an examination of a secondary school ? —I should say it would be desirable that there should be more than one person. 1468. Dr. Wallis.] Would you like to see the whole of secondary education put, like primary education, under the control of the Executive of the day ? —the appointment of Inspectors for instance? —I have already said lam not prepared to suggest how the inspecting and examining officer or officers should be appointed. 1469. The Chairman.] Was your school ever subject to inspection by the Inspector of Schools? — Under " The Education Act, 1877," those holding scholarships under Education Boards must attend at institutions which for that purpose must be open to the visits of an Inspector. We have scholarships from the Board of Education, and therefore the Inspector is at liberty to come to us when he wishes. We are open to his inspection. 1470. Dr. Hector.] But, as a matter of fact, was the school inspected ? —lt has never been inspected by the Inspector of the Board of Education. 1471. The Chairman.] What is the system pursued in awarding prizes in your school ?—For the last throe years the prizes have been determined by the result of written examinations in all subjects, in each class; and three prizes on the average have been given in each of our six classes. 1472. Then it is dependent on the examination? —Such has been the practice for the last three years. 1473. What punishments are in use at the school, and by whom are they inflicted ? —The ordinary punishments. The usual means of maintaining discipline are had recourse to. 1474. Are all masters at liberty to inflict punishment ?—All are. I may add that all punishments are entered in a diary at the end of the hour during which the punishment may have been inflicted. I am directly responsible for any punishment that is inflicted by any member of our staff; and if the men are honest I know every punishment that is inflicted. 1475. Professor Shand.] In extreme cases of discipline, such as the expulsion of a pupil from the school, by what authority would that be inflicted? —Fortunately discipline has been no trouble with us. There has been no instance of expulsion yet. If any necessity arose i should certaiuly not act without consulting the Board of Governors. 1476. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is corporeal punishment ever resorted to ? —lt is. 1477. Is there any system of marks by which a boy would lose something through misconduct ? —No. 1478. Are impositions set? —By some of the masters, but not to any great extent. I discourage impositions and punishments of all kinds. 1479. Would every instance of corporeal punishment be entered in the record to which you have alluded? —Unless the masters were unfaithful to their duty, every instance would bo entered; and I may add that if there is anything done in the way of illegal punishment—-for instance, the head is sacred —it is reported to me immediately. If a master in the heat of the moment struck a boy it would be reported to me at once. 1480. By whom ?■ —It is the duty of the master to report to me at once. 1481. The Chairman.] Do any impediments of a special character exist in the way of the efficiency of the school, and, if so, how can such impediments be best removed ? —I think that question has practically been answered already—our wretched housing, our insufficient staff. 1482. And that state of affairs has existed ever since you became connected with the school ?— Tes. 1483. Are there any arrangements made by the school for the boarding of pupils from a distance ? —No. 1484. Professor Shand.] I think you mentioned that provision was to be made in the new building. Can you tell us the extent of that accommodation ? —For at least forty boys. 1485. The Chairman.] Where there is a boarding establishment in connection with a day school,

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do you think it ought to be placed under the charge of the headmaster, or of another master in the school, or should it be managed by some one unconnected with the school ? —lf circumstances are favourable, I think the headmaster ought himself to take charge of it; if not, one of the senior masters should undertake the duty. lam not speaking of my own individual case, but that is my opinion. Tou cannot have too good a man in such a position. 1486. How many of your pupils board with private families ?—Approximately, between twenty and thirty. 1487. Has this arrangement any advantages or disadvantages as compared with boarding-houses established by the school authorities ? —The only justification for it is the pressing necessity. It is the best arrangement that can be made under the circumstances. 1488. Are there any extras charged at the school ? —No. 1489. If the salaries of the masters be charged against the upper and lower divisions of the school in proportion to the time given to them, what does the cost of teaching amount to for each of these divisions ? —£Boo in the lower school; £1,050 in the upper : the headmaster, I presume, would be put dow yn to both. The headmaster's salary is £700. 1490. Professor Sliand.] What portion of your own time do you give to the lower school and upper school respectively ? —Of my own time, four times as much to the upper school as to the lower. 1491. The Chairman.] Do many pupils come up to your school from the public primary schools ? —Not a large number ; I am not prepared to state the exact number. 1492. How many scholarships are given to the primary schools ? —Eleven were given this year. We have upwards of twenty scholars altogether getting scholarships of £30 a year and gratuitous tuition. 1493. Have you any idea of the number of pupils you receive who have been educated at private schools before coming to yours, as distinct from the Government primary schools ? —The great majority of those who come to us have been educated at private schools. I answer this, however, subject to correction. I should like to look over the roll for some time past before speaking positively, but that is my impression. 1494. Are boys coming from the primary schools tolerably well prepared in their education before they reach you ?—Those who come to us as holders of scholarships are usually very fairly prepared indeed in the work in which they competed for scholarships. 1495. Is there any difficulty in assigning to these boys their proper place in the school ?—A difficulty which recurs every year. 1496. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In what form does that difficulty present itself?—Tho previous work of these boys fits them for entering tho lowest class of the upper school in their English and arithmetic, but they know nothing of the Latin and French, which the ordinary third class learn with us. That is where the main difficulty occurs. 1497. How do you meet the difficulty ?—We have met it in this way : By relieving for a while these scholarship boys from part of the work which they knew best, and working them up for a number of months—often, lam sorry to say, during the mid-day interval —in their Latin. It must be borne in mind that the great proportion of these scholars are older than those in the third class, and, as it is six or nine months before they can profitably join the third class in Latin, this means extra work for the masters. 1498. Does it appear to you that the primary school course is the best preparation for entering a secondary school?—I cannot speak with any definite knowledge of the primary school course in Auckland ; but I would say, in general, that the primary school course is not a preparation for the secondary school course. 1499. The Chairman.] Will you state your opinions regarding the desirability of scholarships leading from the primary to the secondary schools, and of the sufficiency of the arrangements already made for this purpose ? —I think it is exceedingly desirable that there should be these scholarships from the primary to the secondary schools. Those established here were at my own suggestion, and after an experience of seven years I am glad to say that the holders of the scholarships have all benefited, even pecuniarily, by their getting scholarships and coming to us. They have all turned out well. 1500. And do you think there are a sufficient number of scholarships granted for the educational district ?—I think it would be very desirable to increase the number of scholarships. It would be found by the Commission, if they were to inquire, that practically the scholarships are taken by schools about Auckland, and that away in the Far North, on the East Coast, and on the other side, there are no holders of scholarships. lam not prepared to say it would not be advisable to attach certain scholarships, say, to the extreme North or the extreme South. lam certain it weuld be of advantage to increase the number of them. 1500 a. Dr. Hector.] Tou have told us that some of the boys from the primary schools who hold scholarships go up to you too far advanced to work in with the other scholars of the secondary school. Would any good be done by inducing them to leave the primary school at a lower standard than at present ?—I could not advise the lowering of the standard. 1501. Professor Shand.] What is the maximum age ?—Prom twelve to sixteen for these districtschool scholarships. 1502. Professor Cook.] And may anybody between the ages of twelve and sixteen compete for the scholarships?— Anybody who has been a pupil at a common school for the previous six months. 1503. I think you said there were fifteen scholarships : are they all open to competition by anybody between the ages of twelve and sixteen, or are they allotted for particular years ? —They are open for boys between twelve and sixteen without distinction as to age. 1504. Professor Shand.] Do you think sixteen years a proper limit of age, or would you have the maximum lower? Bearing in view the object of the scholarships—namely, to encourage boys to go to a secondary school, and get a secondary education —weuld you not be inclined to lower the maximum age of competition ? —I am not prepared with an opinion on that matter.

*Mr. Farquhar Macrae.

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1505. I think you said that the greater number, if not all, of these scholarships were taken by boys from the Auckland schools ?—Prom the neighbourhood of Auckland. 1506. Is there any way in which you can account for this circumstance ?—Masters are more Successful either in doing their general work or in preparing for scholarships in Auckland than in the country. 1507. May it not arise from the fact that the most promising boys may have left the. country schools long before reaching the age of sixteen ? —I do not know that there is such a difference between boys attending country schools and those attending town aud suburban schools as to warrant such a conclusion. 1508. Professor Cook.] Would you not prefer to see the limit of age fixed at, say, from ten to fourteen instead of from twelve to sixteen ? —I have not thought the matter over in all its bearings, and will not venture to give an opinion upon it. It should be borne in mind that the present limit of age was fixed by the Inspector of Schools here after considerable experience in Auckland, and presumably he has fixed the wisest limit. Eleven scholarships are reserved for district schools, and there are four open scholarships for which the pupils of the Grammar School can compete. 1509. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How long may a scholarship be held?— They are tenable for two years. 1510. Do you know how many are running concurrently with the fifteen you have mentioned? —I think the number is larger this year than it was last year. About eight or nine, I think, has been the average each year. There has been a gradual increase in the number during the last four or five years. I should add that the scholarships are tenable for two years ; but lads have the privilege of remaining, after their scholarships have expired, without paying fees. A number of them have availed themselves of that privilege. 1511. Professor Cook.] Of remaining an indefinite time ?—Several have remained one year, some eighteen months : of course there is a practical limit to the time. 1512. Dr. Wallis.] Tou spoke of district-school scholarships : do you not mean scholarships from primary schools ? —From the primary schools. 1513. Not as distinct from district schools ?—No. " District schools " is the official name for them with us. 1514. Dr. Hector.] Are these scholarships a source of income to the Grammar School ? —They are the reverse : that is to say, the Board of Governors receive the scholars from the Board of Education without charging any fees. 1515. The Chairman.] How many of your pupils have taken University junior scholarships ?— Four, I think, the number was. Mr. James Adams, 8.A., was sworn and examined. 1516. The Chairman.] Tou are the headmaster of the Church of England Grammar School at Parnell ?—Tes. 1517. How long have you held that position ?—Since July, 1872. 1518. I believe the institution has had no endowments granted to it by the Government?— No. 1519. There is a trifling endowment, I believe, from some property in Shorthand Crescent, amounting to £60 a year ? —There is £60 a year altogether. The sum coming to the school at the present time is £30 a year. Three boys get free scholarships, which come to £30 a year altogether. 1520. But there is no money available from that source for the payment of masters ? —No. We only receive £30, and the governors pay an examiner yearly to examine the school, and they give five or ten pounds' worth of prizes. 1521. Then the school is mainly dependent upon fees for its maintenance?—Tes. 1522. What are the charges for tuition ? —£lo a year, or £2 10s. per quarter. 1523. Are there any extras ? —Drawing is 10s. a quarter, and, if there are any boys in the upper class who learn botany, the charge is 10s. a quarter. 1524. What had been your educational experience before you received your present appointment? —I was in a training school at Dublin, and afterwards mathematical and classical master in several private schools, until I obtained the mastership of the Grammar School at Douglas, in the Isle of Man, which I held for six years. The school is similar to the Parnell Grammar School. lam a graduate of the London University. 1525. The Parnell Grammar School is affiliated to the University of New* Zealand, I believe ?— Tes. 1526. When did affiliation take place?—l cannot be certain of the date. It w_9 the same time that the other institutions were affiliated—the Auckland Grammar School and St. John's College. I do not remember any time elapsing between the affiliation of the Auckland Grammar School and that of our own school. Why I think so is that there was a question of endowing St. John's College with £300, and the Secretary, through an oversight, omitted to send in some returns to the Council, and the grant was not obtained. That is what makes me think that the question of the affiliation of all the Auckland institutions was brought up at the same time. 1527. To whom do you refer as " the Secretary "? —The Secretary of the University Council. The Secretary to the Trustees of St. John's College was asked for information with regard to St. John's College, as there was a question of endowing with some £300, and those returns were not sent in to the Senate in time to be discussed, and consequently the grant was not obtained. 1528. I understand you to say that the Parnell Grammar School applied for affiliation about the same time as the Auckland College, but did not obtain it until some time subsequently through some informality ? —That is my impression ; but I do not remember any interval between the publication of our affiliation and that of the Auckland Grammar School. I see, however, that we are not mentioned in the early Calendars ; so that there must have been some interval. 1529. Did your school obtain any advantage from the affiliation ?—No. 1530. I think you succeeded the Rev. Dr. Kinder in the headmastership of the school ?—Tes.

Mr. Farquhar Macrae.

Feb. 13, 1879,

Mr. J. Adams.

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1531. Upon your taking office were any changes effected with regard to the organization, curriculum, and staff of the school ? —There was an entire change in the working of the school, which was made exactly the same as the one I conducted at Home. The books were changed, the time-table was changed, and a regular system introduced which would enable us to give a report at once of what was being done at any hour or time of day. 1532. Professor Cook.] Had it not been a regular systematic school before ?—Not what I should consider a regular systematic school. There was, in my opinion, no regular and proper course of lessons. 1533. The Chairman.] Kow many pupils attended the school when you took charge of it?—l may explain that I came to Auckland with the understanding that I was to obtain the headmastership a year before Dr. Kinder was moved to St. John's College : that would be in July, 1871; and I was master of the Grammar School, and Dr. Kinder of the College. Dr. Kinder was the head. At that time we had twenty-one boys in the Grammar School, and Dr. Kinder had ten. When Dr. Kinder left there were twenty-six boys altogether to begin with in tho Grammar School. The ten boys that Dr. Kinder had with him in a separate room while I was there, went away when he left—-either went with him to the College or left altogether; and there were twenty-six boys on the roll: some went away and other new boys came when I obtained the headmastership. 1534. How many pupils have you at present?— Seventy-eight. 1535. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are the objects of the school the same now as when you took charge, or has there been any change in that respect ?—I think the main design is the same. There was a change in the government when the new Bishop came, but the main design of the school, which was to give a higher education with religious instruction, has been tho same all through. 1536. What duties do you perform in the school as the headmaster ? —The headmaster must know what is done all through the school; he cannot confine his attention to any one particular class. He is answerable for every boy in the school. Of course the higher subjects would devolve on tho headmaster. 1537. Dr. Wallis.] Has he always a special class of his own, as well as the general instruction of the school ? —Tes ; the headmaster must take a part of the school subjects. There are seventy-five boys : these are classified, and there are three masters. The headmaster of necessity has more work to do than any other master. We could not afford to have a supervisor for the school and three masters. 1538. The Chairman^] How many masters have you ?—There are two besides myself, and two visiting masters. The second master is Mr. T. A. Neate, a Bachelor of Arts of Cambridge; and the third master is Mr. J. P. Gradwell, who belongs to the University of London, having matriculated there. 1539. Dr. Wallis.] Are the visiting masters graduates in arts ?—One of the visiting masters is Mr. Cheeseman. who is an excellent botanist, and a fellow of the Linnscan Society; the drawing-master is Mr. Watkins, who is another man of well-known ability. 1540. The Chairman.] Is your Btaff sufficient ? —I think so. Any master who knows how to teach can take twenty-five or thirty boys, if they are properly classified. Of course, if we had more means we would have perhaps a better staff. 1541. Professor Sale.] Would you also have a better classification? —-We cannot have a better classification, because the school is classified according to a system. The lower division is periodically examined, and, as the boys are fit, they are moved up to the second; the second is examined, and, as the best boys are sufficiently advanced, they are moved up into the first. Tou cannot improve upon the classification. 1542. Professor Cook.] Do you not think that in a school containing seventy-eight boys there might be more than three classes, if you could afford to have additional assistance in the way of masters ?—Tou see you can teach together English subjects, mathematics, and Latin—you work these in two or three divisions. Suppose we take the first class, say twenty-four boys : these are in two divisions in mathematics. One division is up getting instruction from the master; the others are at work. As soon as the first division have received instruction, they go down and work at the desks, and the other division comes up for instruction. There might be four or five divisions in mathematics, and a proper master could keep the whole thoroughly well at work, and know what every boy was doing. Then, in English subjects, a class of twenty-five in history is all the better, because some of those who are backward in mathematics or Latin are well up in English subjects. 1543. Then, on the whole, you think you do not require any more assistance ? —I think not. 1544. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou are aware that it is ordinarily found in grammar schools that six forms are required. What are the exceptional circumstances with regard to your school that make it possible to put them into three ? —There are six divisions. There is the first class, which is worked in two divisions, as far as mathematics and Latin are concerned ; the second class is worked in two divisions ; and the third class is also worked in tw ro divisions. 1545. Then practically it is an economical arrangement, rather than any special difference between the boys in your school and those in other schools, which accounts for the difference?—l do not know of any schools where they would have a master for ten or twelve boys. They could not afford it, and, even if they could, I should think it would be a disadvantage. A large class that is properly taught works a great deal better than a small one, if properly classified. 1546. The Chairman.] What relations exist between you, as headmaster, and the governing body as regards the tenure of your office ? —There is an agreement for cither six or three months' notice on either side. The governors pay no salary. They do not pay any rent. It is more an honorary engagement than anything else. 1547. What are the relations between you and the subordinate masters ? —I engage them and pay them. 1548. The governing body do not interfere with the arrangements you make with the masters ?— No. Generally I like to consult the governing body, in order that there may not be any one appointed of whom they might not approve; but they do not offer any suggestions.

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1549. Does this system work well in practice so far as your experience goes ?—I think that under any mode of government it is the only thing to do. It is the only system that will work well. 1550. Professor Sale.] Tou think that in all schools the headmaster should be supreme over the others, and should have their appointment and dismissal in his hands? —Tes; the masters will like it better. I have had my present masters with me for several years, and have never had any trouble or any question about anything. 1551. Dr. Wallis.] Supposing the under-masters received their salaries from the governing body, and were altogether independent of the headmaster, would it be desirable, in your opinion, that their appointment should be iv the hands of the headmaster ? Take for example the Auckland College and Grammar School: would it be desirable that the headmaster should have the sole appointment of undermasters, without reference to the Board of Governors ?—I think the system would work a great deal better if the master had a certain payment, had to give account of fees, and paid his own masters ; because when the under-masters are paid by the governing body they feel independent of the headmaster, and no school can be worked if there are differences of opinion on such a question as that. I have never had actual experience of a school where the masters received payment from endowments independent of the headmaster. I should think the masters would feel themselves very much more independent. , 1552. The Chairman.] Is there a minimum age fixed for admission to your school ? —Boys do not come, as a rule, until they are a little over nine years of age. They must be able to read, write, and do some arithmetic. 1553. Is there an entrance examination held?-—No. The boys usually come from some preparatory school, and wheu they are considered fit by their parents they are sent. If a boy is unfit to go on with the class w re ask that he may be withdrawn, and sent to a preparatory school uutil he'is able to go on with us. We have no formal examination for entrance. 1554. Is the school divided into upper and lower departments ?—There are three classes. These classes are ranged for mathematics and classics into divisions. In English subjects —in geography, history, and Scripture —the boys are taught together, that is, in classes and not in divisions. 1555. By whom is the religious instruction given ? —By the three masters. 1556. Is the school visited by a clergyman for the purpose of religious instruction?— No. 1557. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the attention of one master confined to one class, or is the work distributed according to subjects ?—Each master is responsible for his own class. The headmaster must know everything that is done in the school, and be able to examine in everything. It is expected that the second master should be able to examine in everything done in the departments below him, and that the third master should prepare for the second department. 1558. What time and opportunity has the headmaster, looking after the highest class, to see what is done in the other classes ? —There are some days on which he exchanges with the second master, and takes the second class ;he may take it two days in the week, according to the way it works. Then in the third division, when there are such subjects as Euclid and dictation in the first class, the third master takes that, and the headmaster takes the lower class. 1559. On what principle are Euclid and dictation mentioned together in that answer ? —Because they take the last hour and a half on Tuesday and Thursday. There is Euclid from half-past 10 until half-past 11, and dictation during the last half-hour ; and those two subjects the third master can take. 1560. Professor Cook.] Not that you think Euclid necessarily easy to teach?— Not at all; but as far as the text of Euclid is concerned the master must be very ignorant if he cannot teach it. Of course, in preparing geometry, the exercises are taken either by the headmaster or the second master. , 1561. The Chairman.] What are the school hours ? —From 9 to 12, and from 2 to 4 —that is, twenty-five hours a week, Saturday being a holiday. 1562. Bey. W.J. Habens.] Have you formed any opinion as to which method is preferable—closing altogether on Saturdays, or giving only a half-holiday on Saturdays and another on Wednesdays ?— The reason our school closes on Saturday is because many boys come from some distance —from Onehunga, Otahuhu, Ponsonby, Kohimarama, &c. —and if we only closed for half a day on Saturdays and Wednesdays they would have to travel a considerable distance for only three hours' work. The circumstances of locality make it a better plan with us. 1563. Professor Cook.] Is class singing taught in the school ? —No. There is no singing unless it is out of hours. 1564. And charged for as an extra, I presume ? —lt is not connected with the school at all. The regulation we make is that there are per week about eight and a half hours devoted to English, nine hours to mathematics and science, and seven and a half hours to classics. 1565. The Chairman.] What is the present course for classics?—lt generally coincides w rith the senior Civil Service examination; but there is Latin poetry and prose. There is either Horace, Livy, Virgil, Sallust, or any other of the school classics. 1566. What are the head classes learning at present in Latin ?—Virgil, at present. We are guided by the Civil Service examination at the end of the half-year. 1567. Professor Cook.] What Virgil ?—The First Book. It is the course laid down this year—the First and Second Books of the _Eneid, and Sallust. 1568. The Chairman.] Is Greek taught in the school?—Tes. 1569. What do the first class study in Greek ? —At tho end of the year they were reading the Anabasis of Xenophon. There is only one boy now reading the Anabasis. 1570. Have you got a library in connection with the school ?—No. 1571. Is there a gymnasium attached to the school ? —We have a parallel and a horizontal bar, but nothing else. 1572. Professor Cook.] Is there sufficient ground for cricket and football ?—We are close to the Domain, and have plenty of ground ; the Domain is just across the road. 1573. The Chairman.] What is the area of the ground on which the school stands ? —-I think it is 10— H. 1.

Mr. J. Adams. Feb. 13, 1879.

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about half an acre. The railway tunnel runs underneath part of our ground, and there is a portion of the playground lying on the other side of the road, where Mr. Mason's place is. The part we have for the use of the school is about half an acre. The proceeds of the land through which the railway tunnel passes purchased the house from which we receive £60 a year. 1574. Tou have stated that the curriculum of the school is generally planned in order to work in with the Civil Service examination ? —That agrees with the matriculation for the University, and that is the object of it. 1575. Has the curriculum of the school been planned with the object of bringing it into relation with the University course ? —On reading the minutes of the last meeting of the Senate in Auckland, I observed that some of the members mentioned that the senior Civil Service examination would correspond with the matriculation examination; so that I have passed as many of the boys as possible for the senior Civil Service examination, in order to bring the course into accordance with the University. 1576. Professor Sale.] Tou prepared them ?—We have already passed four for the Civil Service. 1577. Professor Cook.] If they have passed the senior Civil Service examination, do you consider they have also passed the matriculation examination ?—Tes. 1578. Then, in fact, the senior Civil Service examination is your matriculation examination ?—lt is. We cannot get boys to look to the University, because there is nothing definite to be obtained. If they pass the Civil Service examination they are sure of employment, andean be exempted from the preliminary examination for the law ; but there is nothing gained by merely passing the matriculation examination. 1579. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you compared the senior Civil Service examination with the demands of the New Zealand University for matriculation, so as to see that they do agree ? —Tes. 1580. Professor Drown.] Are there set books in Latin or Greek in the Civil Service examination ? —There were this time, but not before. Each school could choose what subjects it liked before, which was much better and suited us better. 1581. Then there was no at-sight translation?— No. 1582. It does not exactly correspond with the University matriculation, because in that you must have " at-sight" translations in Latin?—l understood that the at-sight translation was in the general scholarship examination. Until the last time we could select our own books out of a certain number mentioned. 1583. Dr. Hector.] But notice had to be given which book was being used ? —Tes. 1554. Professor Cook.] On page 116 of the Calendar for 1878 there is a list of local Boards of Examiners for matriculation, the members of which, I suppose, have to be regarded as University officers, although they are appointed by the institutions. For instance, under St. John's College, Auckland, are the following names: Eev. J. Kinder, D.D.; Eev. C. M. Nelson, M.A. ; Yen. L. Pritt, 8.A.; Eev. K. S. Hassard, M.A.; James Adams, Esq., B.A. Does not the College undertake to the University that those gentlemen should form the Board of Examiners for matriculation ? —lt is a difficult thing to get men to really go to the trouble of drawing up papers and examining boys properly. It is a most laborious thing, and I do not thiuk any honorary Board of Examiners would do it. The only examination we could really have is the one at the end of the year. 1585. Professor Sale.] Have you at any time had any students matriculated to the University of New Zealand ? —We had one on one occasion; but the mistake was, it hindered the boys from competing for a junior scholarship. 1586. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you say whether the New Zealand University has requested the Grammar School to appoint a Board of Examiners for matriculation ?—lt has requested the Bishop. There was some communication, I remember, when my name was placed on the Board of Examiners given in the Calendar. 1587. I observe that St. John's College, Auckland, has a local Board of Examiners for matriculation, and that your name is down; but in the Calendar there is no list or statement concerning a Board of Examiners for matriculation in the Church of England Grammar School. Do you know whether you have ever been asked to appoint a local Board of Examiners ?—I suppose it is considered that the other Board is sufficient for both institutions. 1588. Is there, in your view, such a connection between St. John's College and the Church of England Grammar School as that the appointment of one Board of Examiners at the request of the University authorities suffices for both institutions ? —Although the two institutions are separate, St. John's College having an endowment and the school having none, and they cannot give us any assistance if they wish to do so, yet many of the boys of the school have obtained scholarships at the College. There is some connection in that way, but the two institutions are not one—they are distinct. 1589. Eeferring to the one ease of matriculation of which you have spoken, by whom was that student examined ?—By Archdeacon Pritt. He passed the senior Civil Service examination, and passed very high ; and then I wished him to go in for a scholarship, as is usual in the London University, where after matriculation you go in for honours; but I found that I was wrong, and that after matriculation he was unable to go in for a scholarship. It was the fact of his standing so high in the Civil Service that made me feel satisfied he would do well. 1590. Did he matriculate by passing the Civil Service examination ?—No. 1591. He was examined by Archdeacon Pritt ?—Tes. 1592. Who appointed Archdeacon Pritt as matriculation examiner ? —The Bishop asked him. I did not like to undertake the examination myself. 1593. Did the Bishop act in this manner as representing the Grammar School ?—I should think so —as governor of the Grammar School, and head of the examining body which was referred to. 1594. Did the University accept the examination conducted by Archdeacon Pritt as a matriculation examination ?—Tes. 1595. Professor Cook.] Do you consider that a local Board of Examiners has ever been appointed for conducting matriculation examinations at the Parnell Grammar School ? —I think they have been appointed by the University.

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1596. Who are they ? —Their names are published in the Calendar. 1597. Those are the examiners for St. John's. Do you think a Board of Examiners has ever been appointed for the Parnell Grammar School ? —I do not think there has been a Board appointed for the school, which I know was separately affiliated. Archdeacon Pritt recommended Barstow as a student who matriculated, so that the Board for St. John's College would do duty for the school. 1598. The Chairman.] Has any change taken place in the curriculum of your school in consequence of its affiliation with the University?— No. 1599. Professor Cook.] Tou told us just now what the highest class did in classics: can you tell us what they do in mathematics?—Plaue trigonometry and mechanics. 1600. What book of plane trigonometry ?—Todhunter's small book. Boys going up for junior scholarships read the large book at times with me. 1601. How far do you get in algebra ? —Colenso, up to tho binomial theorem ; but, as that is not required, they do not generally go further than the end of quadratic equations. 1602. I observe on your time-table " physics :" what do you mean by that? —That is in the first class. It is in Stewart's larger Physics; so far as is required in the physical part of chemistry. 1603. In reference to the upper class, do you mean the atomic theory and the elementary principles of heat and electricity as introductory to chemistry?—Tes ; subjects like specific gravity, latent heat, and other purely physical parts. This is when we take up chemistry as a subject. 1604. Dr. Hector.] Do you take chemistry as one branch of regular tuition for all your pupils beyond a certain standard?— All the boys of the first class. It is part of the curriculum. 1605. Have you any apparatus to conduct experiments ?—We have for any experiments required by Eoscoe's larger book. 1606. And you have the necessary apparatus for illustrating ?—Tes : in fact, we make from the sulphuric acid, and a few other bodies, nearly all the other things that are required. 1607. Tou mean Eoscoe's Manual ? —Tes. 1608. Professor Cook.] Who teaches this chemistry ?—I do. 1609. Dr. Hector.] Do you teach any branches of science in the school ?—Physics and chemistry ; and there is botany, which is taught by a separate master. 1610. How is it taught ? —We have charts ; the boys make a collection of plants and describe them, and the master takes them into the Domain and classifies the plants. He also, perhaps, takes them over to Orakei, to the bush, and they arrange the specimens, classify the plants, and describe the trees. They use Oliver's text-book. The master possesses in himself a fund of information. 1611. Is there any zoology taught in the school ? —No. 1612. Professor Cook.] How often does Mr. Cheeseman visit the school ? —Once a week. 1613. Is he paid?—Tes, 10s. a quarter for each boy. There are twelve boys learning. Botany is an extra. 1614. It would come to about £24 a year ? —Tes. Of course it is too little for a man of his attainments, but he is willing to take it. 1615. The Chairman.] Is the course of study in the school prescribed according to your own views, or in deference to the wishes of the parents ? —Entirely according to my own views. 1610. Have you formed any opinion as to whether boys and girls should be taught together at secondary schools, or in separate establishments ? —I think in separate establishments. 1617. How many of your staff are University graduates ? —The second master is a graduate, the third master is an undergraduate, and I am myself a graduate. 1618. Has the number of pupils been increasing from year to year, or decreasing, since you became headmaster ? —The first year the number was twenty-six ; a short time afterwards it went up to forty, and it has remained steady during the last four years at between seventy-five and eighty ; it has been seventy-two, and as high as eighty-one. 1619. Dr. Wallis.] Do you not think that, in addition to the grammar schools in Auckland, the place would bo much benefited by the establishment of a college with a regular staff of professors ?— We want a central school where special subjects would bo properly taught. 1620. Would it not be desirable to have such an institution in the neighbourhood of Auckland ? — We w Tant a place where young men, after leaving school, could go amongst young men, and where there would be a higher class of education, with masters taking special subjects —a college. 1621. Would it not be desirable to have a similar institution in Auckland to those which exist in Christchurch and Dunedin ? —We shall never do anything until we do have it. 1622. In that case, then, these grammar schools would necessarily cease to be affiliated to tho New Zealand University ? —They would have scholarships at this central school. 1623. Professor Cook.] Do you think that within a reasonable time there would be a sufficient number of students to make the establishment of such a college desirable ?—There would be from thirty to forty scholars, besides additional young men reading for the University who would not be scholars. The whole institution could not consist of scholars. In my opinion the town would supply thirty scholars, besides the additional members who would wish to read. 1624. Professor Drown.] That is to say, there would be a far larger number of undergraduates than there are at present?—l should think so. But the University must do something definite. We must have something definite for an examination. If the matriculation carries with it a law examination, or an appointment to any office, young men will very soon matriculate ; but at tho present time it does not carry anything, and is valueless for professional work. Tou want some definite examination. 1625. Eather, an examination with a definite purpose ?—Tes. 1626. Dr. Hector.] It has been proposed to identify the matriculation and junior scholarship examinations with the Civil Service senior and junior examinations ; to combine them, and separate the subjects by the manner in which the papers should be drawn, so that, in going up for one examination, the result would depend upon the amount of work done by the student. Would you be in favour of such a proposal ? —Tes, if we might take the Civil Service examination papers for this year, which were better than usual. They would be a very fine standard for matriculation,

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1627. Professor Drown.] How would they compare with the London University matriculation examination ? —They are, I think, quite up to the mark—except in English and history. 1628. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the number of subjects required in both cases the same ?—I think they are about the same. 1629. Dr. Hector.] What is your opinion of this proposal: "1. That the examination for matriculation be made identical with or similar to the senior Civil Service examination. 2. That the junior scholarships be awarded on extra questions appended to the matriculation examination papers. 3. That two-thirds of the senior scholarships be awarded on extra questions to the B.A. examination papers of the second year. 4. That one-third of the senior scholarships be awarded to students in the third year on any branch of study who have passed the B.A. examination or are holders of junior scholarships, and be held during a fourth year of study only "? —That is what I was working for. That is the reason why I contrived to pass as many boys as possible for the senior Civil Service examination. 1630. Do you think such a scheme as that proposed in the two first paragraphs would be practicable, and be beneficial to education ? —-Tes ; because it is not the difficulty of the paper which tests a boy's knowledge; it is the thoroughness of the paper. I think it would be a far better plan all through. 1631. Professor Cook.] And you think a matriculation examination would be hard enough to separate those who were candidates for junior scholarships ? —Tes, with extra questions. 1632. The Chairman.] Tou are aware that there has been an attempt to combine University education with grammar-school education in the same institution. Do I understand that you are of opinion that those two branches should be dissociated, and that the grammar school should be held in one institution, and the collegiate education given in another ? —I should think so. There should be a place where young men, when they leave school, should be able to go aud carry on their studies. There is no such place now. Several young men have recently left me to whom I should like to be able to recommend some place where they could go and hear lectures, as in London, and carry on their studies ; but there is no such place. 1633. Do you find that the daily attendance at your school is very nearly on a par with the number on the roll ?—The attendance is very regular. 1634. Is your school patronised by persons of all classes of the community?—We have sometimes people of all classes ; but a boy, unless he is brought up by intelligent parents, cannot carry on the work; and so he leaves after a short time. It is only professional men, and men of high education, who will keep their boys continually, year after year, at the school. There have been cases of people with scarcely any education keeping their boys a long time at the school, but I do not remember any cases where those boys came out well. As far as I can see, it is only the sons of men holding responsible positions who come out well. 1635. Dr. Wallis.] Very few tradesmen's boys persevere to the end of the course ?—There are some tradesmen, intelligent men, who keep their boys on at great sacrifice, but comparatively few. 1636. Professor Sale.] Then the bulk of your boys would belong to the more wealthy classes ? — Tes ; the bulk are from those who associate together as friends —men in responsible positions. The school is open to all classes, but it is only the boys of the better educated who remain a long time, so as to attain any standard —with some exceptions. 1637. The Chairman.] What are the arrangements in the school with regard to keeping terms, and also with regard to vacations and holidays ?—The terms are arranged so that there shall be two months and twenty days in each quarter. The last term of the year is from September to January. That takes in more than three months. A term would begin on January 27th and extend to April 12th, two months and tw-enty days ; another would run from April 12th to July sth, and the next from July sth to September 27th. The last term wrould of course be a very long one, four months. 1638. What is the vacation ? —Six weeks at midsummer. This year it was from the 22nd December to the 3rd February. 1639. Bey. W. J. Habens.] At what points in the year do other holidays come ? —There are only the holidays given in the terms, except a week in midwinter. 1640. Then from the end of the Christmas holidays to the beginning of the next Christmas holidays you keep straight on, with the exception of a week ? —Tes, with the exception of Good Friday, Easter Monday, and the other public holidays. 1641. Do you think it advisable to put so constant a strain ou pupils and teachers ?—The only time you could make would be at Easter, which is too near the other long holidays, and in midwinter the weather is too bad. 1642. Have you ever contemplated the division of the year into three terms rather than four quarters ?—No. 1643. The Chairman.] Does the present school building afford sufficient accommodation for the pupils ? —Tes. Of course we should like a much better building ; but there is plenty of accommodation as far as room is concerned. 1644. Dr. Wallis.] There is no boarding establishment in connection with your school?— No. There are some boys I take in my private house. 1645. Professor Sale.] What becomes of the other boys who attend school from the country and do not board with you ?—There are many private houses iv Parnell aud in town where they board, and some live with their friends. 1616. The Chairman.] Do you get any assistance from the Board of Governors to procure maps, models, diagrams, or scientific apparatus i —We had ono grant when I joined, but that was the only assistance, and I think a point was strained then. There was a complete set of maps procured. The chemical apparatus I have procured myself. 1647. Has anything been done by the governing body with regard to periodical examinations ?— They appoint the examiner, who sends in his report. 1648. Is there an annual examination of the school ? —Tes. 1649. Who was the last examiner ? —The Eev. Mr. Nelson.

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1650. Did he examine in all branches ?—Tes. 1651. Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability of a general system of inspection and examination of secondary schools ?—We ought to have an examiner who understands school work and understands all the subjects. We can get no examiner who can examine in all subjects. There should not be amateurs who do not understand school work. The Government will never get proper reports until they have proper examiners. 1652. Professor Cook.] I understand that in your opinion the Civil Service examination is a properly conducted examination ?—First-rate. The last one was a very good one. 1653. The Chairman.] If you think there should be a periodical inspection and examination of the school, by whom, in your opinion, should the inspector be appointed ?—I prefer, as far as my own school is concerned, to have a quite independent Government examination, as independent as the Civil Service examination. 1654. Tou would have the appointment made by the Government then ?—Entirely by the Government. 1655. Dr. Hector.] Would you prefer that the University or the Government should have control of the inspection and examination? —I do not care, provided it is unconnected with us; because, no matter how severe our examinations may be, the fact of our only having a clergyman to examine, or some one connected with the town, gives them the appearance of having been bolstered up. We want tho school to have an independent examiner who thoroughly understands scholastic duties. 1656. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think any value attaches to inspection as distinct from examination —I do not mean to the exclusion of examination, but as distinct from it ?—A man goes into a school, and a class is handed over to him to be examined. Well, in ten minutes he can tell exactly what the class knows —what they have been doing and what the master has been teaching. I think that to go into a school and see the masters teaching w rould be very tiresome work : besides, they would be made up for the occasion; and, again, the best teachers might at such a time do very badly, and the worst teachers might do very well. The great mischief in all the schools is cramming. A man knowing his work can tell exactly how much the class really knows, and what they can produce. That is what is wanted. 1657. The Chairman.] Are you provided by the governing body with any funds for giving prizes for the results of the examinations ? —Last year the Board gave the whole of the prizes. Before that they gave £5, and I contributed the rest. Last year they gave £10, which purchased all the prizes. Some gentlemen have been accustomed to give prizes every year, which are additional. 1658. How are these prizes awarded ? —According to marks. The boy who obtains the highest number of marks gets the first prize, and so on. 1659. Professor Sale.] During the term, or at the examination ?—The marks are awarded by tho examiner. The master has nothing to do either with the awarding of the exhibitions or with the prizes. 1660. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are they given according to the subjects or according to the work of a class as a whole ? —According to the number of marks obtained at the examination. 1661. Dr. Hector.] For the whole of the subjects? —Tes. 1662. Dr. Wallis.] Is there any religious teaching at the school ? —Tes. We take some portions of the Scripture for the year—for instance, the history of the Jews during their captivity, or the period from the end of the Prophets to the New Testament; and all that history is explained in lessons. 1663. Dr. Hector.] Daily lessons ?—Tes. On Monday morning there is an explanation of the Collect and Gospel. On Friday mornings there are generally doctrinal lessons on the Catechism: But the Scripture lessons are all in history —the life of Christ, or something of that sort; and the whole of the doctrinal part is simply the Catechism. 1664. Do all the boys belong to the Church of England? —I never inquired. There is no distinction made. 1665. Dr. Wallis.] Do you begin with the Lord's Prayer in the morning ?—Tes. 1666. The Chairman.] It is not exclusively a Church of England school ?—We have had boys of all denominations, and still have, I suppose. I have never inquired. 1667. Professor Drown.] How have you managed with regard to this religious instruction?— There is no difficulty at all about it. I have never had any difficulty, and it is a wonder to mo what the difficulty is in this matter. 1668. The Chairman.] How many of the pupils who attend your school from the country districts are boarded in Auckland and at Parnell ?—I can only count eleven out of eighty-five. 1669. Do many of your pupils come from the common schools? —Very few. In fact, the boys must begin at the very lowest part of the school to pass the senior Civil Service examination, and they have to go through the whole course. If a boy comes late to us from a primary school, it is only to go into business, not to enter a profession. 1670. Then I suppose most of your pupils have been prepared at private schools ? —-They have either been at some lady's school, or at the Auckland College aud Grammar School, or some other school where classics were taught. 1671. As a matter of fact, do you get pupils from the Auckland Grammar School?—We have pupils from that school—several. 1672. Have you any knowledge of the course of education prescribed for primary schools ? —No, I am not familiar with it. 1673. Are there any scholarships held by pupils in your school ? —None, except those exhibitions of £30 each awarded by the governors. We do not obtain any scholarships from the common schools. 1674. Have any of your pupils taken University junior scholarships?— No. We have only had two who tried, and the results in those cases have not yet been published. The youths at our school have other objects in view—professions, the Civil Service, or something of that kind.

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Feb. 13, 1879.

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1675. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the number of junior scholarships offered by the University is sufficient ? —Tho more the better, I should think. 1676. Professor Drown.] Do you know that there were ten offered last year, and only five awarded? —But the pap>ers, although very good, were unusually difficult. 1677. Not more difficult thau the previous year? —I thought they were. I thought the French was very difficult, and the arithmetic, and especially the Euclid, which was more of the character of geometrical exercises than mere propositions. 1678. There were ten offered the year before, and only four taken, with quite a sufficiency of candidates too ? —There is a higher standard every year. There is no doubt the University scholarships have done good. There is a very much higher standard of education now than there was some few years ago. The change came in with the new regulations. 1679. The Chairman.] Has your school felt the competition with the Auckland Grammar School to bo a severe one, seeing that the Auckland Grammar School is endowed and your school is not?—Of course we get no advantages. It is scarcely fair; we get nothing. We supply quite as good men, and as good teaching, and we get no provincial scholarships, no endowments, or anything else; it all goes one way. 1680. Professor Drown.] Did your school obtain any advantage through being affiliated to the New Zealand University ? —No. 1681. Of course, we know it had not any pecuniary advantage : had it any other ?—We did not increase in numbers. 1682. Supposing you had undergraduates, have you a sufficient staff to make a separate course for them ?—ln the Grammar School you never have anything more than undergraduates. Tou must have a college. There may be some schools where they will take a degree, aud young men stay at the school for various purposes ; but they are exceptional cases. 1683. Professor Cook.] Tou say you cannot, at the Grammar School, have more than undergraduates : do you conceive that the Grammar School can efficiently prepare for degrees ? —Tes; I should think so. 1684. Professor Drown.] Without having any separate course ? —Tes. There is nothing except some mechanics to do, and higher English. 1685. And no more Latin or Greek than is asked in the matriculation and Civil Service examinations ? —A little higher, but no more. I suppose the chief thing is to write some English extracts in passable Latin prose. 1686. There is no increase of work in any way ? —I do not think so, for a master. 1687. It is supposed to be a great deal higher work, and would need separate classes, as the work is different ?—We could not prepare for a degree at the present time at our school. What I meau is, that a grammar school would not get boys of a higher grade than undergraduates. 1688. Tou think that the present affiliation of three or four institutions is injurious to University work here—that it impedes the progress of University work, such as it would be if there was a real college ? —Tes ; it is nothing like a real college. If you get the young men who have reached a certain standard, say the senior Civil Service examination, passing in classics, mathematics, and English, and place,; them at a college, then you will obtain some high men ; but at the present time there is no place for such youths to go to after leaving school. In the Grammar School there are perhaps one or two boys who, the others having drifted away, are left behind with the purpose, perhaps, of entering the Church, or some other object; but these are exceptional cases. 1689. And you think it would do a great deal of good to the secondary schools if there was a higher college for which they might prepare ; and that the secondary schools should be on a level and attend to their own work ?—Tes. But if the work were done they ought to be all on a level as far as endowment goes. There should not be one school with endowments and another school without any. 1690. Professor Cook.] Are you acquainted with the present form aud constitution of the University of New Zealand ?—Tes. 1691. Do you think, looking to the circumstances of the colony, that that form is the one which is best adapted to the colony ? —No. 1692. What form of University institution would, in your opinion, be most suited to the colony ? —An institution on the model of the London University —an examining body. 1693. Merely an examining body, without any affiliated institutions ? —We should do away altogether with this farce of a matriculation examination : there is nothing done—the examination conducted by each institution. If they wish to have students they must have a genuine examination for everything by the University—first year, second year, and so on. At the present time it is most unsatisfactory. A Board of Governors passes a youth who wishes to matriculate after his second year. There is no examination. Then he goes up for his examination and fails, perhaps. He is utterly disheartened ; he has done nothing. The University should conduct them from the first. 1694. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What, in your opinion, is tho leading difference now between the constitution of the New Zealand University and that of the University of London ?—The type of the London University must be modified a little. The object of a University is to encourage the schools. The University of London does not seem to take any interest in the schools; it is more for raising the standard of teachers in colleges. But what I mean with regard to the London University is that there should be an examination for matriculation appointed by the University. No boy or young man should be admitted on the books of a University until the University is satisfied, by its own examination, that he is fit for it. 1695. Professor Cook.] Then do I understand that the main difference you see is that the University of Loudon examines itself for the matriculation, whilst here it is left in the hands of the colleges ? —Tes; that is the main difference. 1696. Professor Drown.] It leads to sham matriculations, you think ?—There is no clue to the University course. If you go up for the London examination to matriculate you know pretty well what work is required. If you are well up with tho matriculation you are not afraid of your first-year

Mr. J, Adams.

Feb. 13, 1879.

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examination ; and if you are well up in your first B.A. examination you know what is coming for the second B.A. examination. Now, a youth going up here passes the matriculation examination. He has not come in contact with the University as yet. He waits for his second year. Then he comes in contact with the University, and finds that all his preconceived notions are overturned. There is no preparation for the first examination. 1697. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou are aware that opinions are divided as to the best form for the University of New Zealand —whether there should be one strong central institution which should provide instruction at one centre and there only, and there confer degrees ; or whether there should be several teaching bodies in different parts of the colony, each one being a University in itself, with tho power to confer degrees, and quite independent of other such institutions in the colony ; or whether there should bo local institutions for instruction, all of them subject to a central University which should be simply a degree-conferring body. As between those three types, which do you think is the most suitable for the colony ? —-What I should like to see is this: that there should be a central institution which should have, as it were, the care of the different educational institutions in the various towns; that these schools in the towns should reach a certain standard, and that the central body should examine them ; and that degrees should only be conferred from the centre. That agrees, I think, with the third type you mentioned. If you place an examining body at any central point, with able men capable of conferring degrees, there will in time be lectures given as in London. The London University will become more of a teaching body in the course of time, because there will be lectures given. But at the present time I think an examining body is what is required in this colony. 1695. Professor Cook.] Do you think the type of the London University is better for New Zealand than that of the Queen's University ? —Tes. 1699. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you considered the question whether ad eundem graduates should be admitted to Convocation cm equal terms with other graduates?—lt excludes us altogether. It is a great piece of tyranny, I think ;it shuts us all out. We have no chance of ever getting into the University, or having a voice in the Convocation. 1700. Tou think ad eundem graduates ought to have a voice ?—Tes. 1701. Professor Droivn.] Do you not think they would swamp the native graduates ? —I think the more educated men there are in the Convocation the better. 1702. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it better that the Government should continue to have the control of the University, or that it should be handed over to graduates, even although a large proportion of them —the majority, at first—be ad eundem graduates ? —lt would remove some dissatisfaction if power were given to the graduates ; and it would come to tho same thing as before, because few would meet in Convocation. 1703. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you familiar with the present regulations and standard for the B.A. degree in the New Zealaud University ? —I have read them. 1704. Are you able to express an opinion as to the sufficiency or otherwise of the standard, as compared with any course elsewhere? —Speaking from memory, I should say the examination is rather unequal. 1705. Professor Drown.] That is to say, some subjects are too difficult and others too easy ?—Tes ; and that spoils the candidate going up :he does not know what to do. The great fault of the University examination is the English :it puts English out of the question, it is so difficult. It is too indefinite. 1706. Professor Cook.] Which do you consider the difficult parts ? —I find the examination does not agree with the London examination, and that is the point I dislike about it. The mathematics I consider easy. The Latin, if made a compulsory subject, is, I think, what most candidates would fail in ; and the English is not beyond the average. But the mathematics is very easy. 1707. But what is your opinion of the whole standard for the degree, taking the average subjects ? —It is not equal to the London degree; not so difficult. 170 S. Professor Drown.] So that the standard is not too difficult? We have a great many complaints that the standard is too high ?—lt is not up to the London standard. There is metaphysics, and logic, and moral philosophy ; they are compulsory in London. 1709. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you formed any opinion a3 to the appointment of examiners for University purposes —whether they should be appointed from persons resident in New Zealand, or from persons beyond the colony ? —I think the papers would be better from examiners in New Zealand. 1710. Have you formed any opinion as to the supply of examiners, and the kind of persons who should be appointed for that purpose ?—There is no use appointing a person as examiner unless he knows something about college work. 1711. Do you thiuk there would be a sufficiency of such men in New Zealand ? —I have not formed an opinion on that point. 1712. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that, if a number of colleges were established in different places, a joint Board, comprising the professors and teachers of those institutions, would form a prorier Board of Examiners ? —They could select examiners from the body. 1713. Do you see any objection to such a course ? —The difficulty is, masters examining their own boys ; there is always a difficulty there. 1714. Do you think that, in the case of granting degrees, where there was no competition, that objection would have much weight ? —I do not think the teaching body should have anything to do with the examination at all. 1715. Would it be satisfactory if the services of the examiners for the London University could be obtained ? Would there be any real practical hardship owing to the time that would elapse'in consequence of the papers having to be sent Home for their inspection ?—I do not think so. There is no doubt that, if the examiners are to be selected from persons out of the colony, it would be better that they should be selected from London than any place nearer. Ido not know that there would be any hardship in waiting six months or three months for the result of an examination. I suppose the matriculation examination could be very well conducted in the colony, and also the junior scholarship examination,

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Friday, 14th February, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the Chair. Professor Brown, Professor Sale, Professor Cook, Professor Shand, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Dr. Hector, Dr. Wallis. Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Mr. J. A. To_e, M.H.E., was sworn, and examined. 1716. The Chairman.] Tou are a solicitor practising in Auckland?—Tes. 1717. The Eev. Father Fynes, when under examination, told us you could give information with regard to the letting of the lands comprised in the St. Mary's College endowment at the North Shore. Could you inform us how many tenants are occupying the property? —-I may state that my connection with the property is of a very limited, and at the same time purely honorary, character. When Dr. Croke, the Eoman Catholic Bishop, left New Zealand in 1874, he empowered me to receive what rents might become due in respect of the property, and I have been doing so ever since that time. The tenants number about four, I think, and are mostly holding from year to year. Originally, Bishop Pompalliergave leases for terms of about twenty-one years; but, owing to the very poor return which the land yielded, the tenants, long before the expiration of their leases —indeed after three or four years' occupation, and in some cases ten years' —were very glad to be relieved of their tenancy. In fact, before Bishop Croke left, one of them came and begged to be let off, offering a compromise, and he was allowed to go. I think there is only one original tenant left, Mr. Melville, who holds under an old lease, which has about six years to run. I have not hitherto been able to collect rent under this lease, because the lessee gave a sort of foregif tto Bishop Pompallier for the earlier period of his term. He has just now become indebted. He paid, I think, for the first eleven or twelve years. I think he has, by his lease, to pay, for the residue of the term, about £5 a year for thirty or forty acres. Of course, under the circumstances —that is, in the absence of Dr. Croke's permanent successor —I did not feel justified in advising Father Fynes, or any deputy administering the diocese, to lease for any lengthened term, not knowing how far it might interfere with the designs of any new bishop, whose arrival has been for some time expected. My position is that of custodian of the money, and all that I have received I have deposited in the Savings Bank. Under instructions from Bishop Moran, who is the administrator of the diocese, and under whose ecclesiastical jurisdiction the diocese is at present, I paid £20 of the money to the Industrial School at St. Mary's. 1718. That is the only sum you have expended out of the rents you have received ?—Tes. 1719. Professor Cook.] Do you know what became of this money which Mr. Melville appears to have paid to Bishop Pompallier ?—I do not. It was given as a foregift—about £30 —many years ago. 1720. Dr. Wallis.] I think Father Fynes said beheld all the money in his possession, to the extent of £180, and that he was responsible for it. Is the money which you have distinct from that ?—No, it is the same. It is in my immediate control, but I should not feel justified in interfering with it, except under express instructions from Bishop Moran. I wrote to Bishop Moran on the subject, because, in the event of a new bishop coming, I was anxious to be in a position to disclose authority for my action as holder of the money, and he (Dr. Moran) instructed me to give a portion of the money to the institution I have mentioned, as it would be in accordance with the terms of the trust. I therefore gave £20, which I thought a fair proportion. 1721. Have you ever been on the land at the North Shore? —No; I have been on ground adjoining. 1722. Could you give the Commission any information as to the value of the land?— Only from hearsay. lam told that it is worth about £6 or £7 an acre to sell. 1723. What is the amount of rental derived from it?—l think there are now about 260 acres let. One tenant was paying for 112 acres £28 a year; but latterly the rent was reduced to £20 per annum, as the tenant said he could not continue to pay so much and hold the land on so short a tenure—that unless he could get a long lease he would not attempt to plough the ground, or do anything of a substantial character with it. He is a butcher, and uses it merely for grazing purposes. For about 70 acres another man is paying £11 per annum. Then another tenant is paying about £5 or £6 for about 40 acres ; and Mr. Melville, who has his lease intact, pays according to the lease, namely, £5 a year for the remainder of the term. 1724. What is the total amount ?—Over £40. 1725. Does this land adjoin the building known as St. Mary's ? —Tes, I believe it does. I think the College ground is severed from the trust property by a creek. I have been on the College ground, but do not know its exact relation to this land. It is no portion of the endowment, and lam given to understand by old residents that the stone college which is on it was built before this trust property was granted. Those who by their long residence know the facts told me that such was the case. I think it was Mr. Dignan who informed me that, although public funds were, he believed, granted in aid of the erection of the building, yet the College land was acquired before the trust property was conveyed to the Catholic body. 1726. Professor Drown.] Was the stone building erected out of moneys given by the Government ? Not entirely, I believo. I understood a sum of money was granted by the Government, but Bishop Pompallier supplied the rest from what is called the " Propagation of the Faith Fund," a fund then contributed by the Marist Institution on the Continent. 1727. And the trust was afterwards given to support this building?—l can only presume it was given as an endowment for the support of any school which, according to the terms of the trust deed, afforded " religious instruction, industrial training, and instruction in the English language to children of both races."

Mr. J. A. Tole.

Feb. 14, 1879

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1728. The Chairman.] Could you state by whom the rents were received previous to your being appointed to receive them by Bishop Croke? —No, 1 could not. 1729. Professor Cook.] Do you think that, if this land at the North Shore were sold, the proceeds would return a much larger income than seems likely to be obtained by merely leasing the land ? I mean sold, and tho money invested in good securities ? —I do not think so. The price obtainable for it would at present be very small. The land is of a very inferior description. It would be better to give tolerably long leases, at the expiration of which the property would become more valuable, and might thus be utilized to greater advantage by remaining as an endowment. 1730. Do you thiuk that within a reasonable period it is likely to become valuable for building sites? —I do not think so. 1731. There is some property also held by the Catholic body at Freeman's Bay ?—Tes, I believe there is a small allotment there, but 1 have had nothing to do with it. 1732. Is that a valuable endowment?—l suppose it is worth about £-100 an acre. 1733. Tou can give us no information about that property ?—No; except that it contains about four acres, is worth about £400 an acre, and has a large schoolhouse erected upon it which cost about £800. 1734. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Who is the present trustee of the North Shore property?— That depends on the grant. I suppose the Eoman Catholic Bishop for the time being. 1735. There being no Catholic Bishop here, how does it stand ? —Though the bishopric is at present vacant, there is nevertheless a person fully authorized lo administer the ecclesiastical affairs of the Diocese of Auckland—namely, Bishop Moran—who would therefore he constructively tbe Eoman Catholic Bishop of Auckland for the time being. Moreover, by an Act of the General Assembly passed in 1876, known as " The Eoman Catholic Lands Act," lands such as this is become vested in the duly-appointed administrator of the diocese, who is interpreted by that Act to mean the Bishop for the time being, except that he is not a corporation sole. 1736. Can you inform us in whose hands the accounts of the estate for former years now lie ?—I do not know. 1 suppose they are in the archives of the diocese. 1737. Professor Ulrich.] Do you know whether the quarry adjacent to St. Mary's is of any value, or likely to become so, for building purposes? —It is considered to contain exceedingly good stone, in fact about the best quality of stone around Auckland. I have no doubt however that if the quarry were opened ihe adjoining property would be deteriorated in value. The estate is not easily accessible by water, the approach to it being a narrow, shallow, and tortuous channel through mud flats, extending almost for miles. 1738. Would there be easy access to the quarry?—No; tho approach would be as I have just described. Mr. E. H. D. FEiiGtrssO-T was sworn and examined. 1739. The Chairman.] Have you attended any agricultural school, or had any experience of such an institution ?—Two years ago, whan in England, I went to see Cirencester College, in Gloucestershire. 1740. Did you ever attend an agricultural school as a student ?—No. 1741. What did you see going on at Cirencester College when you were there?—l was not at all pleased with what I saw. There was a good deal of lecturing, and Professors telling the students all about the properties of grasses, but they did not seem to get at the practical part of the work. 1742. Professor Cook.] Do you mean that they did not begin at the practical part, or that there was no practical work?— There was no practical work that I could sec. 1743. Professor Shand.] Was there not a farm attached to tho school?—Tes. 1744. And do the students take part iv working the farm ? —I think not in the actual work of the farm. They attend classes more, and are instructed in the properties of land, and what should be done, but 1 do not think they actually do it themselves. 1745. Professor Ulrich.] Do you know of your own knowledge that this practical work is not gone through ?—Merely from what I heard. I was not there long enough to watch everything, but irom what 1 heard I understood that the practical work was not done. 1746. Professor Shand.] Was there a body of labourers then ? —Tes. There appeared to be at any rate some labourers. , 1746 a. Professor Cook.] Have you ever come in contact with any young men who have been educated there, so that you could form an opinion as to whether or not the students do learn agriculture practically as well as theoretically ? —1 have; and I understood from all the young men I have spoken to on the subject, and who have been at ihe institution, that they do not learn agriculture practically— that it is mere theoretical instruction which ihey receive. 1747. The Chairman.] Do you know the length of the course of study at the school ? —No. 1748. What staff of teachers is there ? —I believe there are a number of farmers as teachers, but I cannot say for certain, or how many. 1749. Dr. Wallis.] Is agricultural chemistry taught at the school ? —Tes, I believe it is ; I am not sure. 1750. The Chairman.] Is there a diploma, or a degree of any kind,, conferred ?—Tes, I believe there are degrees of some sort. Ido not know about the diploma. I think there are scholarships. 1751. Professor Ulrich.] Do you know whether any arrangements are made by which, after a student has obtained his theoretical training and leaves the school, he can get practical training somewhere else ? —I do not know, but I think not. 1752. The Chairman.'] Do you think such a school would be useful, if established in New Zealand ? —Tes ; I think that, if worked and managed in a proper way, it would be : that is to say, if you were to begin teaching the young men what to do practically, and let them learn the theory afterwards. 1753. Dr. Wallis.] Set them on the farm as farm labourers ?—Tes; I would make them do everything from the beginning. 11— H. 1.

Mr. J. A. Tote.

Feb. 14, 1879.

Mr. Ferffusson.

Feb. 14, 1879.

1754. The Chairman.] Are you aware that there is an agricultural school in Canterbury ?—I heard that one was to be started there, but I did not know that it was in operation. 1755. Do you know whether tho site selected is a suitable one ?—I am not acquainted, with it. 1756. I think you have stated that the students should be taught the outdoor branches of farming as well as the indoor ?—I think they should learn everything, from tho very beginning—that they should, personally, be able to do anything that may have to bo done on a farm. 1757. Would you look at the Canterbury College Calendar for page 74, where the course of instruction for the School of Agriculture is prescribed, and say whether, in your opinion, such a course is a proper one?—Tes, it appears to be very good. It is easy to print these things, but it seems to me that the carrying of them out would be more difficult. 1758. Professor Cook.] Still, the school is only coming into existence; and you think, as far as agriculture is concerned, that that is right ? —Tes, I think so. 1759. Professor Shand.] Do you think that part of the business of a school of agriculture should be to make experiments in farming—to find out what crops are suitable to certain soils, the effects of manure, what trees will grow, and so forth ?—I think so, on a small scale. Ido not think it would do to make the establishment an experimental farm. 1760. It ought not to be an experimental farm? —Not the whole of it; a small portion might be used for that purpose. 1761. Dr. Wallis.] Would this be your idea of an agricultural school: a farm, say, of 500 acres, with a learned professor appointed to be the chief farmer, and the students to do the work of labourers on the farm, and to be indentured after the third year; tho professor to be acquainted with practical agriculture, as well as agricultural chemistry? —Tes. I do not know about the indentures, but I think the other part would be very good. 1762. Professor Cook.] What is your opinion of the rest of the course prescribed in the Calendar, besides practical agriculture ? —I cannot say anything about chemistry. 1763. Do you think the other subjects mentioned should be taught as part of tho agriculturalschool course ?— I think so, especially land-surveying. 1761. Is there anything you would suggest which might be added to tho course? —No ; I think the course, as laid down in this Calendar, appears to be a veiy good one. 1765. Then you approve of that as a complete course ?—Tes. 1766. Professor Ulrich.] Tour opinion, in a few w rords, is that you w rould have the students first learn the practice, and afterwards the theory ?—Tes. 1767. The Chairman.] Do you think there ought to be more than one agricultural school iv the colony ?—I have no doubt it would be a very good thing if there could be one at each of the principal centres —Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin ; but I think that at present the colony could hardly afford to maintain so many, and that, in attempting to do so, the whole scheme might be spoiled. There might be one very good school, instead of three or four indifferent ones. 1708. Do you know how the Agricultural College in England is maintained ?—No. 1769. Do you know whether it is supported solely by the fees, or receives Government aid ? —I could not say without reference to some papers which I have on the subject, and which I shall be glad to let you see. 1770. Professor Cook.] Do you think that the circumstances of the North Island—the quality of the land, the presence of ferns, and so forth—are such as to render it desirable that there should be a school for the North Island, as well as one for the South ? —No, I do not think so. 1771. Professor Drown.] Do you think the Canterbury School could be utilized for teaching purposes for the rest of New Zealand ?—Tes. It would perhaps be a good thing if the students had to travel a little in other parts of New Zealand sometimes. 1772. Added to the course? —Tes. I thiuk something of that sort might be beneficial. 1773. Travel under some practical instructor ? —Tes. 1774. Professor Ulrich.] Instead of the system which you advocate, of practice first, and theory afterwards, do you not think it would be better that students should attend the school up to a certain age, and then, after an examination, be apprenticed out to qualified farmers, and learn demonstration, as well as the practical farming—a system, in fact, similar to that which obtains both in Germany and France, where agriculture is like a profession, and where the students first learn the Iheory, aud afterwards the practice, and then become managers of large estates all through Europe?—Tes ; I think if they were apprenticed in some binding way, it would be a good thing. But I should be in favour of teaching them the practice first, and letting them learn the theory afterwards; because I thiuk the chances are that, if a man learns a lot of theory, he loses his taste lor the practice. 1775. Professor Drown.] Do you not think the two could go on concurrently ?—Very well, I think. 1776. Professor Cook.] For instance : During a considerable portion of the year there is not so very much active out-of-door work to be done on a farm, and could not that time be used for lecture purposes ?—No; I think that on a farm there is very little time when one has not got plenty to do. 1777. Professor Sale.] Tou said that the Canterbury scheme looked well on paper, but seemed to be a little doubtful how it would turn out in' practice. Is the difficulty, do you think, likely to arise from the fact that the students might probably be young men of some small means, and unwilling to undergo the drudgery of the details of a farm labourer's occupation?—Tes; I think that is one reason. 1778. Is that the reason you thought operated at Cirencester?—No. The reason for my thinking that it would be difficult to carry out is that it is a very difficult matter to get a professor who is a practical man as well as theoretical. 1779. And that is the difficulty you think existed at Cirencester ?—No, not exactly, although to a certain extent. I did not think the institution was well managed in many ways. 1780. Professor Shand.] Tou could not give us any idea of the expense of conducting the school ?—No.

Mr. Fergusson,

Feb. 14,1879.

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1781. Dr. Hector.] In the course laid down for the Canterbury Agricultural College, is there any part of the chemistry that could be omitted? —I could not say. 1752. Is there anything special in the natural history that is needed for an agricultural college? I a«k because it appears to me that what is jotted down under the head of agriculture is chiefly the practical part of the course, and that it does not require any theoretical or scientific knowledge.—l think all the subjects mentioned in natural history are very useful, although I do not think they are absolutely necessary. 1783. Could not all those preliminary scientific branches be taken quite as well at an establishment that would also serve for other purposes besides agriculture?—l think so —perfectly well. 1784. And leave the agricultural college to deal purely with agriculture?—No; I think there should be a certain amount of theoretical work —-I mean chemical work. 1785. If it was found to be more economical, would there be any objection to have that taught at a chemical school, where other professions besides agriculture were in progress?—l think there would be if the teaching were given at a different period of the year. The students ought to be on the farm all the year. 1786. Professor Broion.] Would not one session of theory and another of practice do ?—I think not. 1787. Or one session of practice followed by a session of theory ?—No ; I think the two ought to go on almost together, or else that all the practice should be finished first, and then the theory taken. 1788. That tho students should have their practice on the farm, and then go into tho college for their theory ? —Tes. 1789. Professor Cook.] Do you not think that a man who teaches agricultural chemistry requires to devote his attention specially to that particular branch of chemistry ? Do you think an analytical chemist would be competent to teach agricultural chemistry? —I do not know. 1790. Dr. Hector.] I wish to discover whether it would be necessary to establish a separate school for agriculture, if there were the means of acquiring a knowledge of chemistry and natural history at another place, —if it would not meet the requirements of the colony if the students were indentured to farmers who were able to give the practical information? —Yes ; that might do very well. 1791. Dr. Wallis.] Eeferring to the question of Professor Ulrich, do you contemplate a profession of scientific farmers who would have students apprenticed to them, the same as a master carpenter has apprentices who learn the business ?—That might do, but it is difficult to answer off-hand. It would be a very large scheme. 1792. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Is it absolutely necessary, in your opinion, that the students should learn the practice of fanning in connection with the college, or should they learn only the theoretical part there—for instance, so much of agricultural chemistry as would enable them to find out the properties of soils ? —I should consider it absolutely necessary for them to learn the practice first. 1793. Professor Cook.] What do you think is the most convenient and suitable area for a farm for the purposes of an agricultural school ?—I should think that 500 or 603 acres of mixed soil ought to be quite sufficient. Of course you would have to be guided very much by the character of the land. Tou would want hills, fiats, swamps, and every variety you could get —the more mixed tho better. 1794. I think you said that the students at Cirencester did not learn practical agriculture sufficiently ?—I think they did not. 1795. Was that owing to tho character of the students themselves, or was it the fault of the institution ?—I do not think it should be owing to the class of men, because there were students there of every class : in fact, I believe there are sons of peers there and sons of ploughmen. "1796. Do you think that the character of the students likely to be obtained in New Zealand would be a cause why the place should fail ?—I do not think it should be. 1797. Professor blrich.] Do you know what becomes of the students at Cirencester after they leave the college ? Do they go on farms and learn the practice of farming?—l do not think they are bound to do so. I think a good many of them get employment as stewards and bailiffs on gentlemen's farms and large estates. Some of them become farmers: in fact, one finds them in all lines of life after they leave Cirencester. Mr. E. J. O'Sullivan was sworn and examined. i 1793. The Chairman.] You. are the Inspector of Schools for the Auckland Education District? —Tes. 1799. How long have you held that office —irrespective of changes that have taken place in the law ?—Since the latter end of 1869 or beginning of 1870. ISOO. Could you give the Commission any information with regard to the establishment of normal schools in this educational district ? —The Board is about to establish a normal school in accordance with the wishes of the Central Department. At present there is no such school in Auckland. There are evening classes for teachers, and the teachers of course practise in the schools in their ordinary work, but we have not what is called a normal school here. 1801. Tou do not consider this class, which is conducted by Mr. Worthington, a normal school? —It does somewhat similar work, no doubt. 1802. Does that school get any aid from the Board of Education ?—Tes; Mr. Worthington and his assis'ants are paid by the Board of Education. 1803. Professor Sliand.] Does the Government make a special allowance for tho purpose?—Tes ; an annual grant, I think, of £2,000. 1801. Dr. Wallis.] Are there not two training classes —one at the Thames and one at Auckland? —There are classes at; the Thames similar to those in Auckland. 1805. Professor Cook] What is the nature of the instruction given at these classes? I mean, is it preparation for passing the examination for a certificate, or is it instruction in the art of teaching— lectures as to method ?—lt is almost entirely instruction in the subjects for examination ; they only get the other teaching incidentally.

Mr. Ferguston.

Feb. 14, 1879.

life. o'Sullivan,

Feb. 14, 1879.

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Mr. O'Sullivan,

1806. The Chairman,.] By whom is the £2,000 you mentioned granted ? —The grant is made by the Central Department in Wellington. 1807. It does not mean £2,000 for this district, I presume?—lt is made for the purpose of carrying on normal schools in this district, and I believe a similar provision is made in other districts. 1808. Professor Shand.] What allowance is made to Mr. Worthington and his assistants for giving this instruction to teachers ?—I am not quite sure as to the exact sum, but I think Mr. Worthington gets £Lsl) a year, aud his assistant £50. 1809. Bey. W. J. Habeas] And that is in consideration of work done in tho evenings and on Saturdays ? —ln consideration of that, and also for work which is done for country teachers who communicate by letter with Mr. Wonhington, and work papers, which they send to him for correction. 1810. Professor Shand.] How is the rest of the voto of £2,0)0 expended ? —I cannot say definitely, but a portion is supposed to go to the Girls' High School, which has a training class also. A large portion goes in allowances to probationers. 1811. The Chairman.] Can you say what portion of the money is expended on the Thames Normal School ? —I think about £ 100 a year. 1812. Bey. W. J. Habens] Will you give the Commission a general description of the whole scheme for training teachers as it has hitherto been carried on in Auckland ? —lt has consisted of these classes for teachers which I have mentioned, and also a class for people whom we call probationers — persons whom the Board think likely to be useful as teachers from their attainments and character, but who possess no experience as teachers. We have had several of these who have been drafted from time to time into country schools. In addition to the expedients for training teachers which I have already explained, I have drawn up, at the desire of the Board of Education, minute instructions as to school organization and discipline, and as to methods of teaching. These instructions have been found useful, especially to inexperienced teachers. ISI3. Then I understand that the Board has sought to raise up a class of trained teachers by applying a part of the Government vote to the payment of probationary teachers engaged in work at the various schools in town, in order that they may, by practice, acquire proficiency there ? —Tes. 1814. And, so far as you know, the two principal directions in which the vote from the Education Department has gone have been these: first, to the payment of teachers in Auckland and at the Thames who hold evening and Saturday classes for communicating instruction to teachers; and, secondly, to tho maintenance of probationers who are teachers in the various schools?—Tes. 1815. Those are the iwo principal items of expenditure out of the vote? —Tes. 1816. Do you think that the existing method of training teachers is a satisfactory or a sufficient one—l mean the method which has just been described?—l do not think it is at all a sufficient one. In a certain rough way it may be called satisfactory, as in the absence of a normal school it enables the Board to supply the wants of country districts and small schools, which otherwise it would not have been able to do so well. For instance, in this district the population is very scattered, and there are a great many places where the children arc very few, but at ihe same time it would be a great hardship to leave these children without education. In such cases the salary is not sufficient to induce a trained teacher to take an appointment, and if we had not this system of probationers we should be obliged to take people without any training at "all. The system was adopted in order to meet those pressing wants in a rough way. IM7. Then I understand that from ihe class of probationers you have been accustomed to draw a supply of teachers for these schools ? —Tes. 1818. When the probation was finished? —Tes. Until lately, there were no means fo provido anything like a normal school here. 1819. Will you describe the plan which it is now proposed to adopt for the training of teachers ? —The plan is similar to that adopted in Christchurch and in Dunedin. It is proposed to build rooms for students, attached to a practising school, and the establishment is to be carried on in almost a similar manner to the mode adopted at the Christchurch and Dunedin schools. The Board may possibly be obliged to follow tho Dunedin plan of making allowances. 1820. Has any arrangement been made for securing the services of a Principal for such an institution ? —Nothing has been done yet; but the Board proposes to advertise. There has been some difficulty in obtaining land and getting a site, also in arranging matters generally, on account of the way in which tho town was divided into school districts, each with a Committee. The Board did not see the necessity for building a practising school; they thought it would be better to enlarge one of the present schools and make use of if. It appeared rather hard to take the only school of any importance undir their control from any one Committee. This difficulty has been got over by the amalgamation of the ihreo city districts into one. 1821. Dr. Wallis.] Do you contemplate two sels of buildings, ono for practising and the other for training, the two being distinct ? —The sets of rooms wi.l be distinct, but tho building need not bo detached. 1822. Rev. W. J. ITaben*.] I suppose what you speak of as a separate building for training would really be rooms for instruction to the students? —Exactly. 1823. It is not proposed to attach to that another school for children, but to use existing schools for children as the practising school of tho normal school ? —Tes. 1824. Professor Shand.] Where docs the Board propose to get funds from for these additional buildings? —I think they propose to take the money out of tho ordinary Building Fund. It is not contemplated that the building will be very expensive. Only the rooms for the classes will be requited at first. 1^25. What is the estimate of the cost? —The Board have not received any estimates, but I should imagine that a sum of £1,000 would do what is necessary at first. 1826. Professor Cook.] Are you aware whether the Board has considered the question as to the suitability of its school buildings at present existing in Auckland for the purpose of practising schools, having regard to the necessity of building such schools in accordance with modern ideas and

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with all the recent improvements? —To a certain extent they have. The practising school is to a great extent like an ordinary district school, but in seme respects of course it is different. 1 fancy it would require more class-rooms, for instance. Some of the rooms we have are perhaps too large, and would have to be divided. 1827. Then, in addition to the buildings described as training rooms just now, you think other alterations in the school would be necessary to make it thoroughly fit for the purpose? —Tes, I think some alterations would be required. 1828. Is that included in the estimate of £1,000?— No. 1829. Professor Drown] Is this new building to be added to the school which has been chosen as the practising school, or is it to have a distinct site? —It is proposed to be added to the school—to get laud adjacent to the present school, and erect the rooms there. 1830. Dr. Wallis.] Do you think the £2,000 which has been voted would be sufficient to carry on the institution?—lt would be quite sufficient, I think, if the Canterbury system were adopted of not paying the students. I understand that in Dunedin, where they do pay, they do not find tho funds sufficient, and have to supplement them out of their ordinary revenue. Whether the Board here would be able to do that, I am not quite sure. 1831. Bey. W. ". Mulgan.] Is this normal school for training teachers from the commencement, or is it, as in Ireland, for probationers, who as they exhibit good qualifications are drafted up, and who are maintained while they are there?—lt is not intended to train teachers from the beginning; they would require to pass a certain examination before being admitted. 1832. I think you said that at Dunedin they are maintained while attending the school, but that at Christchurch they are not? —They pay some of them in Dunedin, not all. 1833. Do they pay them, or merely support them? —They make an allowance. I understand it is generally £1 a week. 1834. Professor Shand.] That sum is allowed for maintenance, I think ?—Tes, I think so ; in the same way as we make an allowance to probationers. 1835. Bey. W. E. Mulgan] And do you think that would be required here? —I am inclined to think it would be, to a certain extent. 1836. In that case the money you mentioned would not be sufficient ? —I doubt if it would be sufficient; but the Board might be able to carry on iv the same way as they did in Otago. 1837. Professor Shand.] What is the attendance of pupils at the school proposed to be used as a practising school ? —I think the number now* on the roll is 600, and it is capable of accommodating 650. I may mention that tbe Board think of adding to that school. 1838. Then, if you take the capitation grant allowed by the Government for attendance at this school, would not that leave a considerable balance over the expenditure in teaching the school which might be applied to normal-school purposes? —Tes. Of course the larger the school the greater ihe balance. It is proposed to provide room for 1,000 with that view. 1839. ~i\\ that way you could get a considerable amount of additional funds?—Tes. 1840. Professor Cook.] Tou said that this normal school is not intended to train teachers from the very beginning. I presume, then, you thiuk there ought to be an entrance examination for this school ? —Tes. 1841. What, in your opinion, should be the nature of this examination? —I am inclined to think it should be an examination such as is prescribed in Class E. 1812. Some such examination as that prescribed in the Sixth Standard under the present regulations ?—Tes. I should think any one who could pass the Sixth Standard could pass the examination in Class E. 1843. Supposing a college were established in Auckland, with a staff of gentlemen to give lectures on various subjects, do you think it would be desirable, or possible, that a large part of the instruction which the teachers would receive at the normal school could bo given at such college ?—I think a good deal of direct instruction might be given in that way; but that is not the whole duty of a normal school —the master has to organize the, practising of these teachers. 1841. But lam speaking of the instruction ? —I do not see why the instruction might not be given in that way. 1845. Would not that largely lessen the expense of a normal school ? —I should say it would somewhat lessen it. Still, I think you would require some one to organize the practising part. 1846. Tes; but he would act as headmaster of the district school as well, and so would fairly come under the £3 15s. arrangement ?—Tes ; that might be managed, I think. Possibly some difficulties might arise in practice, but I do not sec any insuperable difficulty now. 1847. Dr. Wallis.] Do you think a good professor of the art of education would be a great advantage in Auckland?— Certainly. I ought perhaps to explain that iho Board contemplated having a training class in connection with the Girls' High School. They thought that there they would not require to make any payment, and they would get a class of girls whom it would be desirable to have, and who would be well instructed and prepared. 1848. Bey. W. J. Habens.] The desirability of tho appointment of a professor in the art of teaching being admitted, which do you think the preferable mode —to attach such a professor to the staff of an ordinary arts college, or to place him in charge of a training school, with its attached practising department? —I should imagine his instruction would bo more concentrated if ho were in charge of the training school. 1849. And, from your knowledge of candidates for appointment as school-teachers in the earlier stages, how do you thiuk their usual course of study would compare with the proper course of st ndv for undergraduates in a University college?—l should imagine tne latter course would be very suitable for supplying the higher class of elementary teachers. 1850. Do you think thore ought to be instruction given to persons intending to follow the profession of teaching—instruction in the normal school—of a more elementary character than such an arts college would provide ? —I am inclined to think it would be necessary.

Mr. o'Sullivan,

Feb. 14, 1879.

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1851. But that in some of the higher subjects, and for some of the moro advanced pupils in such a training school, the University college might be useful? —Tes. Wo constantly find people with a great aptitude for teaching:, who can never get any very high amount of scholarship. 1852. Professor Cook.] Supposing such a college were started wit h Class D or matriculation examination as a basis on which its lectures would proceed, do you think there would be many teachers in Auckland at the present time who would be competent and able to avail themselves of the lectures in the college?—A good many of the better teachers would ; but lam afraid you would not get a very large number to start if you made Class D the preliminary. lam afraid that would limit the number of students very much indeed. 1853. Dr. Hector.] Would it be any advantage to the older teachers—would it lead to any higher employment, or be any pecuniary advantage to them, to attend such a college course ? —Not uuder the present arrangements, or at any rate very little. 1854. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you mean under the present arrangement made by the Board, or by the Central Department ? —I mean particularly by the Board, as regards payments. 1855. Professor Shand.] Would they not be more likely to get better schools if they were highly taught than if imperl'ec:ly taught?— Undoubtedly they would. There would be that advantage. 1856. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that such examinations as are prescribed by the University of New Zealand for the degree, and in progress towards a degree, can be fairly utilized for the purpose of tho classification of teachers?—l think they could be utilized for a certain number of teachers, but there are many who could not avail themselves of them. 1557. Professor Shand.] Do you mean they could not attain to any grade under those regulations ? —I think so. The inducements are not sufficiently great. We must always have a large number of teachers for small schools in the Province of Auckland, and the salaries in those cases must always be smali. Ido not know that there is sufficient inducement for them to undertake the amount of study and training that would be required for the examinations you mention. 185.. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that in the classification of teachers any value ought to be attached to the fact that a man has taken a degree, or holds a certificate of having made cerlain progress towards a degree ? —I think that, where a man has a certificate as a teacher, the certificate ought to be a guide to those who wish to employ him, as to his teaching power ; and if an indifferent teacher, because he has a University degree, is put iv a high class, I should consider his certificate was deceptive. 1859. Could you give any idea of the proportion in which you would attach value to practical skill on the one hand and to accurate learning on the other? —I do not know that I could say offhand ; but I should give considerably more weight to the practical skill in teaching. 1860. Do you think that the practical skill in teaching is capable of being as accurately gauged and recorded as the amount of knowledge that a man possesses ?—Certainly not. 1861. Professor Drown.] So that that part of the certificate would be apt to be deceptive too?— It might to a certain small extent. But skill in teaching can be gauged with sufficient accuracy for all practical purposes. The kind of deception I spoke of w ras that iv which a man was taken as a superior teacher merely because of his having a degree. 1862. Professor Shand.] But would not his certificate, under the new regulations, show exactly the grounds on which he obtained his certificate —show the amount of his scholarship as well as his skill in teaching?—Of course the amount of his scholarship must have considerable weight. 1863. But would not his certificate on the face of it show the ground on which it was awarded? —That would depend, in general, upon the form of the certificate. Ido not know that it is usually shown on the certificate.* 1864. The Chairman.] Does it come within the sphere of your duties, as Inspector of Schools, to inspect the Girls' High School? —No; I have never been asked to inspect the Girls' High School. The Board asked me to advise with tho headmaster about various matters, and in that way I have some connection with the establishment. My duties in connection with the elementary schools are so much beyond me that I have had no time to do more than occasionally advise with the headmaster. 1865. Have you ever visited the school, and seen the work of instruction going on ?—Tes. 1866. Can you inform the Commission how long it has been established ? —About two years. 1867. AVhat staff' of teachers are attached to the school ? —There are the headmaster, and, I think, five female assistants. The headmaster is Mr. Heath, who was taken from the Grammar School. 1868. Could you give the Commission any information with regard to the curriculum of study at the school ? —I did go over it with the headmaster, but cannot describe it from memory. 1869. Do you know whether they train any persons specially for teachers at that school at present ? —I cannot say that they do. There was a sort of training class attached to the school before Mr. Heath was appointed, but it was never recognized by the Board. It was beforo I was consulted about matters in connection with the school. There was an irregular class there, which, on my advice, the Board closed at the end of the year. Now they are awaiting the consent of the Central Department, before making this other arrangement to have a real training class. I^6. a. At present the institution is only an ordinary girls' school, for teaching, except the training branch ?—Yes. 1870. Have you any idea how many pupils atlend tho school?—I think there are nearly 200. 1871. What are the fees? —£1 10s. a quarter for the junior pupils, and £2 for the higher class. I believe the Board pays for stationery. 1872. Are any extras charged ?—Yes ; music, and so on. The Board supply the pianos for practice, but the pupils pay the fees. * In the certificate under the new regulations the letter is supposed to sliovv a man's attainments, and tho number his ability to teach. If all degrees were of equal value, tho letter, so far as degrees are concerned, would correctly indicate his attainments. The number is decided by l.ngtk of serrice as well as ability to teach. Thus the number is often no certain guide as to a teacher's competency. As a rule, Committees, when consnlled, would be influeuced by the letter.—X. J. OS,

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Feb. 14, 1879.

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1873. Rev. W. J. Habens.'] In what respect will the instruction to be given to the so-called training class differ from the instruction given to other classes in the school?—lt is proposed that it should be of a higher kind —that none should be admitted into the class who cannot pass a certain examination. I do not know that it is proposed to exclude from the class ;\ll that do not intend to become teachers. 1874. Is it proposed to give any technical instruction in the art of teaching ? —Yes ; it is proposed that Mr. Heath should arrange to give some instruction in that way. 1875. What opportunity would girls in the training class have for practising the art of teaching ? —It is proposed that they should come anil practise in the same way as they would in^any other training school, as they are directed, and also that they should sign the same agreement to continue teaching as is signed in other places. 1870. Then is it the intention of the Board to make the normal school a school for male students only ? —No, that is not the intention. It is thought that a class will be obtained in the Girls' School who will not require an allowance for support, and who will be a desirable class to have. Of course there is nothing decided. It was simply proposed to the Central Department. 1877. Do you know if the Board has it in contemplation to facilitate the progress of girls from the primary schools to a secondary school, in some such way as boys are now advanced from the lower to the higher schools ? —Yes; I believe it is their intention to throw open their scholarships to girls as well as boys. 1878. Would these scholarships then be held in the Girls' High School ? —Yes. 1879. Do you think there are some districts around Auckland where a secondary school, in the strict sense of the term, cannot be founded, but where secondary instruction, to some degree, is required?— Yes, I think there are. 18S0. Have you any opinion as to the best way of providing Ihat secondary instruction in such districts ? —1 think it might be provided in the manner which the Education Act contemplates. 1881. That is, by the erection of certain district schools into district high schools?— Yes; they would bo renllv district schools with higher classes. 1882. Can you suggest how this secondary instruction may be best imparted without interfering too much with the work of the primary department of the school ? —I am inclined to think it could not best be done by the headmaster, as it would take linn from his work of supervision, and that it would bo better to give him a qualified assistant for the purpose. It would be undesirable, I think, to interfere with the supervision which the master ought to exercise. 1883. Professor Shand.] You would not have any part of the instruction given by the headmaster himself? —I do not know that I would preclude him altogether from giving the instruction ; but 1 think it would be undesirable that he should do so as a regular part of his work. 1884 Would it not be objectionable, on the other hand, for the higher work in the school to be done by a subordinate master? —I am considering the primary instruction first. IhBs. AVould it not have a bad moral effect in the school if the headmaster did not take part in the highest instruction given in the school ?—I do not contemplate that he should not take part. If he supervises it, looks after it. and examines it, he can hardly be said not to take a part in it. 1 think it would be undesirable that the assistant should be a better qualified man than the headmaster. 1880. Rev. W. J. Ilabenx.] Having regard to the fact that primary education is not considered by all competent judges to be the best preparation for secondary education, do you conceive that any serious difficulty would arise in district high schools and other schools similarly constituted, on that account? —I think that in those schools it would bo necessary that the pupils should not begin at an early age, but at a comparatively later period. 1887. lteferring to the standards of inspection and examination in schools, could you indicate the points in that scheme at which the secondary instruction might be allowed to begin without detriment to the general work of the school ?—I have not considered the question ; but, looking at it off-hand, I should say, after completing the Fourth Standard. I say that, however, without much consideration. 1888. Then, in that case, do you think that, for the pupils receiving secondary instruction, there should be, say in the Fifth and Sixth Standards, some variation allowed, so that they should not be examined by the same standards? —Yes ; I certainly think that would be requisite. 1889. And you are inclined to think that for district high schools some alteration might be made in perhaps the two highest standards ? —Yes. 1890. Do you think that, instead of an alteration of the standards in that part of the school, it might suffice to allow two years' interval between the passing of the Fourth and Fifth, and two years between the passing of the Fifth and Sixth, in consideration of extra subjects being taken at the same time? —I think it might be done in that way. 1891. Either that, or new standards arranged for the secondary part of the school ? —Yes, either one way or the other. Ido not see why either plan might not be made to work. 1892. Dr. Wallis.] Does not the headmaster of a primary school at present always take classes, and teach them ? —Yes, he always teaches classes at present. In the larger schools, we are reducing that kind of work as much as posible. It is intended, when the school grows to a good size, that the headmaster should not teach at all, directly. 1893. Is there any reason why the highest classes of the school should not be given to his special teaching ? —lf the headmaster devoted himself much to the higher part of the school his sympathies and attention would be very much diverted from the primary instruction. 1894. Professor Shand.] But is it not the object of a district high school to promote secondary, as well as primary, instruction ? Is it not part of the duly of the headmaster to promote the one as"well as the other? —Yes; but the secondary instruction should be given without injuring the primary instruction. I look upon these schools as simply a makeshift. 1894 a. Tke Chairman] Have you such a school as a district high school where the two classes of education, secondary and primary, are combined ?—No. 1895. Professor Shand.] Are there any schools in your district in which secondary instruction is given by way of extra classes held out of school hours ? —I think I may say there are not. I believe there are some small classes taught from time to time at Tauranga.

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Feb. 14, 1879.

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1896. As a rule, that practice does not exist in the district ? —No. The Board endeavoured to get it adopted at the Thames and one or two other places; but people did not seem to agree about it; they thought it would stand in the way of their getting a high school. 1897. Do you think that, if there was a master, in the country, competent to give instruction in some of the higher branches, such as Latin, French, and mathematics, it would be desirable to open extra classes for the more promising of his pupils?—l am inclined to think it is rather dangerous to take a master away from his duties in the primary school : it is apt to be injurious. 1898. Ido not propose taking him away. I propose that this class should be outside of school hours ? —I meant anything that would occupy his attention. At the same time, I would never think of preventing it at a place where there was a want to be supplied. I would not approve of it in a town, for instance, or in a place where there was no absolute necessity for it. 1899. I understand you to say you would rather it were not done in towns where secondary instruction could be obtained ? —Y res. 1900. But in country districts, where there are no other means of supplying secondary instruction, do you think it should be encouraged by Education Boards? —Y res ; but I think they ought to be careful to prevent its being done unless where there is a real necessity for it. 1901. Professor Caok.] What are the limits of age for the Auckland Board of Education scholarships?— Between twelve and sixteen. 1902. Having regard to the fact that a plain primary-school education is not, in all respects, the best preparation for a secondary school, do you not think that the limits of age should be lowered, and made, say, between ten and fourteen or ten and thirteen ? —I have always been opposed to lowering the age. Ido not think it would be desirable to do so. It would lead to cramming, and have an injurious effect on the children. 1903. The Chairman.] Are these scholarships competed for generally by the country schools ?— There has always been a number of candidates from the country schools, some of whom have been successful. I will ascertain the exact number, and supply the Commission with the information.* 1901. Professor Shand.] Could you give us an idea of the standard of examination for the scholarships?—We have had two classes of scholarships, one confined to district schools, and the other called "open " scholarships. The examination for those from the district schools is in the ordinary English subjects, and similar to Class E, except that we specify particular periods of history, and we have also included some knowledge of Shakespeare, and one or two things of that kind. But, in a general way, the examination is very much the same as what might be expected from candidates in Class E. Eou the open scholarships, mathematics, Latin, French, aud some branches of natural science are required. I do not think they have Greek. 1905. Are the candidates at liberty to take the whole of these subjects, or only a limited number ? —They are obliged to take the whole of certain subjects ; there are some others that are optional— optional so far that they may take two out of the number. 1906. They are not allowed to take more than two? —No. 1907. The Chairman.] Can the Auckland Grammar School pupils compete for these open scholarships ? —Yes; they have been principally won by boys from the Grammar School: I think always, except in two instances, when there were no candidates from that school. 1908. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do all the candidates being between the ages of twelve and sixteen compete on equal terms as to age?—Y'es ; it is so now. The Board departed from the practice once, so far as regards open scholarships, hut it was not found advantageous to do so. I may sav,as regards district schools, that the younger boys have the best of it —that here, at all events, the older boys are at a disadvantage, because for a long time the education system had lapsed in Auckland, and there was really very little provision for education of any kind. I find that the boys who have begun within the last few years have an advantage over the older ones. I do not consider this an argument for cramming very young children. 1909. Do you think that, as the education system becomes more firmly established, it will be advantageous to make a distinction between boys under fourteen and boys under sixteen ? —I doubt it very much. If all boys were equal in intellect, and in maturity of intellect, and had the same surroundings and associations, a distinction might be made. As things must be, age is but one element. 1910. Professor Cook.] Who are the examiners for these scholarships?— The Board generally employ gentlemen in the town for the purpose. They have generally left the management of the matter to me. 1911. Professor Shand.] Do you know whether evening classes have ever been held in Auckland— Ido not mean in connection with the normal school ?—I believe there was an attempt to hold evening classes in connection with the Grammar School, but that it failed because pupils would not attend. I do not state that from my own knowledge. I know generally that there is a difficulty in maintaining evening classes ; the boys attend at first owing to the novelty, but almost invariably drop off. 1912. Do you know the object of those evening classes held under the auspices of the Grammar School ?—I think they were only started in order to comply with the conditions of the trust deed, which provides that evening classes shall be opened. 1913. What sort of instruction were they instituted to give?—l canuot say of my own knowledge, but I imagine the object was to enable boys who might wish to prepare for the University, for the literary examinations for legal students, and the like, lo make use of them. 1914. Do you think that if classes were opened with tho object of giving ordinary instruction to lads in shops and working establishments they would be well attended? —I think it would be very desirable to fry them, but I have considerable doubts as to their success. The Board did establish an evening class tor some time, and had a special master for it. It was attended pretty well for a while, * From 1873 to 1879 (both yeiu. included) 37 scholarships have been awarded, and of this number 10 were gained by pupils from country schools, _ by pupils from suburban schools, 3 by pupils from the Thames, aud 20 by pupils from Auckland City.—R. J. OS.

Mr. o'Sullivan.

Feb. 14, 1879,

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but soon fell off. I scarcely think, however, that the system was given a fair trial. I think it is a very important point, and that the attempt ought to be made over and over again, and every means exhausted to see if it could not be made successful. Mr. Frederick L. Peime was sworn and examined. 1915. The Chairman.] I think you are one of the trustees of the Three Kings Wesleyan Estate ? —Tes. 1916. How long have you held that position ? —A great number of years —something less than twenty. 1917. Arc you conversant with the terms of the trust under which the grant was made to the Wesleyan body ? —Not of my own knowledge. 1918. Having heard the terms of the trust read, can you say whether its objects are being carried out at present ? —I believe so. Every penny derived from the endowment is spent for the benefit of the Three Kings institution, and at the present time the proceeds of these trusts are devoted to the support of Natives sent there from several mission stations. 1919. As far as you are aware, none of the funds arising from this estate are merged in the general funds for the maintenance of the Wesleyan clergy ? —None at all. 1920. We had it in evidenco that, to some extent, this trust deed may bo overridden by what is called the " model trust deed " of the Wesleyan body. Do you know whether the model trust deed does in any way override the terms of this trust ? —I could not say. I know there is what is called a model deed registered in the Supreme Court, in respect of a chapel at Parnell, under which all our deeds are registered; and in 1856 the Keligious and Charitable Trusts Act was passed expressly to carry out this provision, some properties being named. 1921. Do you think this property was brought under the terms of the model trust deed by the legislation of 1856 ? —The Wesleyans have no property anywhere that is not brought under that deed. Every trustee holds his trust under that model deed ; there is not a single exception. 1922. Do you know how the property at the Three Kings is being managed at the present time ? Is it being utilized by being let?—lt was let by public tender about three years ago. There were a great many tenders, and generally, if not in every case, the highest tender was accepted. It was let then for seven and ten years, and the rental derived is £299. 1923. Bey. W. J. Habens.] The original trust sets forth as the object of the grant the education of children of both races, and of other persons inhabitants of the islands in the Pacific Ocean ? —That was carried out some years ago to the greatest possible extent. Before the war drove the scholars away a large number of Natives were maintained there, for -whom the General Government paid _. 10 a year each. Subsequently the Provincial Government sent a number of children, city Arabs, for whom they paid money towards their maintenance ; but the funds* fell off and tho children had to be sent home. Of course this sum of £299 could not keep many children and provide persons to look after them. 1924. I understand that, at present, no children are taught at tho Three Kings ?—The only pupils who are there now are some Native lads who are being trained as teachers for their own people. Several have been trained in that way, and have gone out amongst the Natives, and some are in course of training there now. 1924 a. When you say trained as teachers, do you mean as teachers and pastors, or as [schoolmasters ?—As teachers and schoolmasters, whichever they may turn out to be. 1925. What, in the view of tho trustees, is the justification of their present application of this trust to the purposes of the training of teachers, whereas the original terms of the trust stated that children were to be educated ?—I think that under the terms of the trust it is held that the trustees should administer it under the direction of the Auckland District Meeting, which has decided that the Natives shall be instructed or trained at the institution, and the trustees of course carry out that object. 1926. Then do we understand that the trustees now take this view: that they are legally exonerated from the original terms of the trust as expressed in the Crown grant ? —lt is generally understood that the model deed and the Charitable Trust Act override everything. 1927. Is it on that ground the trustees are acting ? —lt is on that ground. The model deed empowers the trustees to appropriate these funds for any Methodist purpose whatever, but the trustees have taken up the ground that they would not appropriate one penny except to Native purposes. In consequence of the war some years ago, the Native children were all sent adrift, and it was years before pupils could be again obtained. It has been through no fault of the trustees that there have been so few Native inmates at the institution. 1928. Then I understand that not only do the trustees hold themselves exonerated from the strict terms of the trust by subsequent legislation, but that they also consider they are going as near to the original purpose as in the altered circumstances they can go to it ?—That is their object —they want to go as near to the trust as possible. 1929. Professor Sale.] Is it intended that all the lads who are being trained at the institution should be licensed preachers ? —No, not all. 1930. Some would be teachers and some preachers ? —Tes; I do not know that they will be teachers. Some, supposed to be the best lads, the missionaries have under their care at the mission stations at Hokianga, Kaipara, and Kaglan ; and those boys are trained at the Three Kings, under Mr. Buddie, the Principal. 1931. Then, I suppose, the answer to the question would be that it is not definitely decided that they should pursue either ? —That is so. At the last Conference it was urged that the missionaries should send the best lads—those from about twelve years of age. But it all depends on the amount of the available funds, as every boy costs something for his maintenance. No portion of these funds goes towards the tuition of the pupils ; they are simply for maintenance. 12— H. 1.

Mr. O'Sullivan. Feb. 14,1879.

Mr. P. JL. Prime. Feb. 14, 1879.

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1932. Professor Cook.] Do the trustees think they could legally apply those funds to any Wesleyan purpose whatever?—lt has been so advanced, but the trustees do not take that view. 1933. I mean legally as distinct from morally?— The trustees have been advised that it was the opinion of Judge Eichmond that they could do so ; but whether they can or not, I am not able to say. The Eev. J. Kinder, D.D., was sworn and examined. 1934. The Chairman.] Tou are the master of St. John's College ?—Tes. 1935. How long have you held that position? —Between seven and eight years. 1936. St. John's College, I believe, is affiliated to the University of New Zealand ? —lt is. 1937. What object had it in view in applying for affiliation ?—I have a difficulty in answering the question. Ido not know what advantage arises from affiliation ; but I presume the reason was because, if students of the College wished to study for a degree, it was necessary that they should do so at some affiliated institution. lam not aware of any other advantage which was contemplated by the Board of Governors. 1938. Did the College receive any pecuniary aid from the University, such as was granted to the Auckland College and Grammar School ? —None that I am aware of. 1939. What is the curriculum of education in the College ?—The curriculum has to be regulated by the intentions of the parents of the young men, and of the young men themselves who come to the College. It is exceedingly wide : that is to say, it is intended to embrace the training of young men in the higher branches of education, a course of instruction in such subjects as are required for University scholarships, for the Civil Service, and preliminary legal examinations. That is as laid down in the usual advertisement inserted in the papers. Besides that, the curriculum is especially intended for preparing young men for holy orders. 1940. How many pupils are there at present at the College ?—Seven. 1941. Are they all being prepared for holy orders ?—They are all young men who are either themselves candidates for ordination, or whose parents are favourable to their becoming candidates at a sufficient age. 1942. Is there any limitation of age for the admission of students to the College ?—I am not aware of any age having been fixed, but practically no students are admitted until they are sixteen or seventeen years of age. 1943. Has any endowment been received from the Government, in the shape of land, for tho maintenance of the College ? —None at all. 1944. Dr. Wallis.] What classical books do you read in the College ? —At the present time I have one young man preparing for a degree who is reading Plato, Sophocles, Livy, and Virgil. He has also read with me portions of Horace and Terence, Herodotus, and Homer, besides practice in Greek and Latin prose composition. 1945. To what extent do you conduct the student in mathematics ? —To any extent required by the University. That is our guide in the matter. The studies of the students who contemplate going into the University course are regulated by what the University requires. Any books therefore required by the University would be read at the College. 1940. Do you mean required by the University for the degree of B.A. ? —Tes, the first degree. 1947. The Chairman.] Have you any assistance in conducting the College?— None. 1948. At the present moment have you any undergraduates of the New Zealand University attending your College ? —I have one undergraduate. 1949. How many of the pupils of St. John's College have matriculated to the University since affiliation ? —Only one, strictly speaking, from St. John's College. One has come to me who matriculated at the Auckland College. He was with me for a year and a half, and took his second degree examination from St. John's College. 1950. Professor Brown.] Did you send in no record of this change of the residence of the student to the Eegistrar of the University ?—I did not. I refrained from doing so at the student's own request, and at the request (as I understood) of the headmaster of the Auckland College, but chiefly because I did not wish to seem to monopolize the credit of a young man passing his degree from tho College, when he had already passed his first examination at the Auckland Grammar School. He had passed his first degree examination w 7hen he came to me :he came to me to prepare for the second examination, and took bis degree from the College. 1951. Professor Shand.] Is he now a graduate?— Yes. 1952. AVhat were the subjects of the first examination—the compulsory or the voluntary* ?—The subjects were Latin and mathematics. 1953. In what subjects did he prepare at your College for the second examination ? —Greek, French, and physical science. 1954. Do you remember what branch of physical science? —Electricity and magnetism, I think. Those he did not read with me; but he had, I believe, some knowledge of them when he came, and perfected himself in them while he was at St. John's, from books. 1955. Have you apparatus at the College for teaching those branches of physical science—heat, electricity, and magnetism ? —No. 1956. Do you know how the student acquired his knowledge? Was it simply from books?—l believe from books. He may have had some knowledge when he came. But he is a remarkable instance of a young man of extremely studious habits and considerable ability. 1 claim no credit whatever for preparing him for his examination in physical science. He came to me chiefly for his Greek, and I assisted him also in some slight degree with his French. 1957. And you cannot tell the Commission whether he obtained his previous knowledge of physical science from books alone, or whether he attended systematic instruction? —I cannot say positively; but I do not thiuk he could have attended regular instruction elsewhere, because he hardly had time for doing so. It is not as if he could have gone backwards and forwards frequently for instruction from the masters at the Grammar School.

__>. F. L. Prime. Feb. 14, 1879.

Rev. J. Kinder. Feb. 14,1879.

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1955. Professor Drown.] Was he resident in the College?—Tes; and that is a considerable distance from the town: therefore, what assistance he got elsewhere must have been slight. He may have had some assistance in a casual way, but he could not, I think, have had any regular assistance. 1959. The Chairman.] Are your present pupils boarders or day scholars ? —They are all boarders. All holding scholarships on the foundation are required to be boarders. 1960. Is there any population in the neighbourhood of St. John's that would be capable of supplying day scholars ? —Hardly any. 1961. I understand that you have only one matriculated student? —-Besides the general course for arts, there is the special subject of theology. Most of the subjects are prescribed by the Board of Theological Studies, appointed by the General Synod. The following is the curriculum of the Theological School: most of the older students arc pursuing this course of study; others are not old enough to matriculate yet with advantage :— Board of Theological Studies —Grade 1., 1879 : 1. Book of Exodus; 2. Gospel according to St. Luke; 3. Whately's Evidences ; 4. Church Catechism ; 5. History of the Church, first three centuries ; 6. Order of Morning aud Evening Prayer, not including Holy Communion. Grade II.: 1. Kings of Judah and Israel, subsequent to Solomon ;2. The Acts of the Apostles, chapter xiii. to end; 3. Sermon ou the Mount (English); 4. Paley's Evidences, Parts i. and ii.; 5. Articles of the Church, i. to vi., inclusive ; 6. Ecclesiastical History, general, fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries ; 7. Ecclesiastical History, English, prior to Eeformation; 8. History of the Church of New* Zealand, English aud Maori; 9. Services for Baptism and Confirmation; 10. Supplementary : Juellii Apologia (Latin) ; 11. Sermon on the Mount (Greek). Grade 111. :1. Post-Captivity Prophets, with Ezra, Nehemiah, aud Psalms cxx. to cxliv., inclusive ; 2. Gospel of St. Johu (Greek and English) ; 3. 4. Epistle to Colossians (Greek and English) ; 5. Butler's Analogy, Part I. ;6. Hooker's Ecclesiastical Polity, Book i.; 7. Ecclesiastical History of Middle Ages—Hardwick; 8. Beda. Historia Ecclesiastica, Books i. and ii. ; 9. Hooker, Book i., v. to xlix.; 10. Order of Holy Communion in Book of Common Prayer, with Articles xxi., xxiii., xxv., xxvi., xxviii. to xxx. inclusive. Grade IV.: 1. Scripture —Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Judges; 2. Epistle to llomans (Greek and English); 3. Psalms i., ii., xxvii., ex., cxi., and Jonah, in Hebrew; 4. Sermon on any passage of Scripture selected by examiners; 5. Augustine, De Civitate Dei, Books i. to x., inclusive, also Book xxii.; 6. Butler's Analogy, Part ii.; 7. Pearson on the Creed, Articles iv., v., vi.; 8. Extracts from Eusebius, in Analecta Christiana ;9. Bishop Butler's Sermons, i., ii., iii., xi., xii., xv.; 10. History of Canon of Scripture—Westcott; 11. Eeformation Period of Church History; 12. Eow's Jesus of the Evangelists; 13. Constitution aud usages of ancient Councils and Synods, as bearing on the present constitution of the Church of New Zealand ; 14. Hooker's Ecclesiastical Polity, Book v., chapter 1. to end. * 1962. Professor Shand.] What proportion of the time of the students is given to the theological studies, and what proportion to general knowledge ? —lt varies altogether according to the different cases. 1963. Could you give us the limits of variation ? —My plan is this : I give the junior students a class every morning for an hour before breakfast in the New Testament, English and Greek. That I believe to be about the amount of distinct theological teaching which the juniors receive, except from sermons in the College chapel, which all attend. The rest of their time is employed in getting up their general subjects —their classical knowledge, history, arithmetic, Euclid, algebra, &c. lam no advocate for their spending their time in the study of theology at present, to the neglect of their general education. With regard to others who are preparing to pass examinations in both branches, they must give a larger portion of their time to theology. I generally give the afternoon to it, taking tho morning for the general subjects—classics and mathematics. With regard to tho undergraduate I have mentioned he is not at present reading any theology, because he is preparing for his degree, and I do not like to interfere with his University studies by giving him other work to do ; but he has previously passed with great credit the examinations for Grades I. and 11. by the "Board of Theological Studies," the subjects of which are given in my last answer but one. 1964. Has he passed any of the examinations for the degree ?—He has passed the first annual College examination, and with credit. 1965. Professor Drown.] Is it long since he matriculated ?—ln the course of last year. He went up for his first year's examination last Christmas. 1966. Professor Cook.] In the case of those students who are not candidates for degrees, what is the standard at which you aim iv their general studies ? —That depends entirely upon their own ability and their proficiency when they come to me. I try, of course, to get them as high as they can go. 1967. There is no definite standard to which they must attain—you simply get them on as far as you can ? —Tes. 1968. Dr. Wallis.] Is it your opinion that any course of higher education is satisfactory which totally ignores all biblical and religious knowledge ?—Certainly not. 1959. The Chairman.] Do you think the present New Zealand University system meets the requirements of the colony ? —I have had so little occasion to consider that subject that I can hardly answer your question, having had only oue undergraduate at the College, and another young man fo*r a part of his time, who took his degree with me ; but as far my impression goes the examination papers which are set are rather calculated to show the cleverness of the examiners than the knowledge of the pupils. 1970. Professor Cj ok.] Do you think, then, that the standard is too high ?—I do not think it is too high. I think it embraces too great a variety of subjects. 1971. Professor Shand.] Do you mean that five subjects is too great a number to be examined on for the degree ? —When those five subjects are brokeu up into different branches I do consider the number somewhat excessive. 1972. How many do you think would be right ? —I cannot give an opinion. I only think that at present there are too many. 1973. Professor Cook.] In what way do you think the papers have been of a character calculated

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to show the cleverness of the examiners ? Tou say the standard is not too high: where then does that peculiarity appear ? Have catch questions been set ?—I am merely giving my general impression. I have never had occasion to go into these papers minutely ; but my impression, on looking at them and reading them, has been that, without going too high, they have been altogether of a very difficult character, and very often —I am not speaking with regard to the later ones ; there may be some improvement in that respect; but with regard to the earlier ones—simply to involve a knowledge de omnibus rebus et quibusdam aliis —anything hooked in that could be regarded as bearing on the subject. 1974. Professor Shand.] Does your criticism apply to the examinations for the degree, or to the examinations for scholarships, or to both ?—My observations are with regard to both. 1975. The Chairman.] Are the present buildings sufficient for the number of pupils attending the College ?—Tes; we have got accommodation sufficient for the present, and there is a great deal more that might be made available if required. 1976. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you consider that any material increase in the number of students would require, at a very early date, the addition of other teachers ?—A considerable increase in the number of pupils would undoubtedly necessitate additional teachers. 1977. Do you think that for the present number of pupils your own single exertions suffice, without undue labour on your part ? —I do not wish to overvalue my own abilities or powers. I should certainly be very glad if I had some one to help me in some subjects. Ido not mean on account of the labour ; but, take physical science, for instance, which has just been mentioned—l do not prof ess to teach that subject at all. If, therefore, there were any funds for the purpose it would be very desirable that the trustees should appoint some one to teach physical science. It is not likely under any circumstances that he would have many scholars, and it would never pay : still, if there were only a single student studying the subject for his degree, it would in the abstract be desirable. 1978. Are you in a position to offer any opinion as to the best form for University institutions in New Zealand to take?—l do not see how, in the present state of things, any other system than the present can be well adopted. It seems to me that, upon the whole, the University acting as an examining body is calculated to have a beneficial effect upon all the various institutions for higher education throughout the colony. 1979. In what direction, in your opinion, is the extension of the present University system most urgently required?—l have not thought upon the subject sufficiently to give an opinion. 1980. Professor Cook.] Tou said just now that, under the present circumstances, you regard the existing form of the University as the most desirable one. Will you state what those present circumstances are ? Do you refer to the peculiar circumstances of Auckland, or to the circumstances of the colony generally ? —lf the University became a teaching body it would then require to be fixed in some central position. Possibly that might be a great advantage to Wellington, or some central point in the colony, but I question whether it would be much of an advantage to the places at a distance. What is wanted is really good local institutions, and not one great central one. 1981. Dr. Wallis.] Tou are no doubt aware that there is a college with a staff of professors in Dunedin, and another college with a staff of professors in Christchurch. Do you not think it would be a great advantage to Auckland to have a similar college here also, with a staff' of professors ? —I am inclined to think it would be. If, however, you have professors in Auckland, Christchurch, and Dunedin, then it comes very much to simply multiplying the collegiate system. 1982. Might not all these colleges be united into one University, like the Queen's University in Ireland ? Would you approve of that ? —Tes ; I see no objection to that. 1983. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou are aware that the present University Act provides for a Convocation, to be composed of the graduates, but that ad eundem graduates can only be admitted to that Convocation if elected by the other graduates. Do you think that distinction should be made between graduates who have passed their examinations in the University of New Zealand and ad eundem graduates ?—I have not thought about it. 1984. Professor Shand.] Are you aware whether in other Universities the ad eundem graduates are admitted to a share in the government of the University ?—I think not. lam not an ad eundem graduate of any University, and therefore cannot speak of my own knowledge ; but I believe ad eundem graduates at Oxford and Cambridge have no voice in matters affecting the University —no vote, or anything of that kind. 1985. Dr. Wallis.] Considering the small number of New Zealand graduates, might it not be desirable as a provisional step to extend to ad eundem graduates the same privileges as are given to the New Zealand graduates? —There is always a risk of any provisional measure of that kind growing into a regular institution, otherwise I should be inclined to say Tes, under present circumstances. 1986. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you any opinion as to the authority by which the governing body of the University should be appointed ? —No. 1987. The Chairman.] Could you give any further information with regard to the position and objects of St. John's College ? —I might read to the Commission the following resolution passed at a meeting of the General Synod, held at Nelson in January, 1877: "That this Synod is of opinion that the main object of St. John's College, Auckland, is the preparation of candidates for holy orders. That the Trustees of St. John's College be requested to give effect as far as possible to the above resolution." I will add that St. John's College is under the authority of the General Synod. 1988. Is there any connection between St. John's College and the Church of England Grammar School, beyond their being under the same Board of Governors ? —I am not aware that there is any other connection. 1989. Are there any scholarships tenable in the Parnell School that could be held at St. John's College ?—No; they are not tied in that way. There are no scholarships at St. John's for students from the Parnell School. We often have students from that school, because, being under the same Board of Governors, and both being Church of England institutions, there is some connection in that way, but no definite connection. 1990. Tou were for a long period, I think, connected with the Parnell Grammar School ?—I was headmaster for many years.

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1991. Are there any scholarships granted in tho Parnell School ?—There are exhibitions. Being in town the scholarships are hardly required. Exhibitions covering the expense of tuition are more satisfactory to a school in that neighbourhood. 1992. Do they merely consist in free tuition at the school ?—They cover the fees for tuition ; but the fund for those exhibitions is not derived from St. John's College.

Rev. J. Kinder. Feb. 14, 1879.

Monday, 17th February, 1879. Present: 'Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Dr. Wallis. Mr. H. H. Lusk was sworn and examined. 1993. The Chairman.] Tou were recently the Chairman of the Auckland Board of Education ?— Tes. 1994. In that capacity you were connected with the Auckland College and Grammar School ?— Tes. We were practically Governors of the Auckland College aud Grammar School. 1995. The Bill dissociating the two Boards was introduced and conducted through the House of Eepresentatives by yourself?—lt was. 1996. Tou have been recently an examiner of the Auckland College and Grammar School ?— Tes. 1997. Did you find the standard of education laid down in that school up to the mark of grammar schools at Home, as far as you have had experience of them ? —lt was in some respects, and not in others. 1995. In what respect did there appear to you to be a deficiency?—Jn using the word "deficiency" I am speaking entirely having in view what I remember of the standard of schools iv England, not as compared with what might be expected here. I think the standard stands well as compared with what might be expected; but as compared with English schools, and my knowledge of them, both from remembrance and from what I have heard of them since I left England, I should say that both the English department and the classical department were deficient. Tho mathematical department, I think, is quite up to the standard of anything I have known in grammar schools in England. 1999. Professor Sale.] Have you any particular English schools in view in saying that ?—No ; it is a long time since I was in England. 2000. I did not know whether you referred to the more classical schools ?—That was no doubt in my mind when speaking of the classics, because those schools which I knew in England were mainly classical schools. 2001. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability or the possibility of successfully blending in one institution secondary education and the higher, or, more properly speaking University, education ? —I have certainly thought of the matter, and my impression is that, while it may be possible, it would be very difficult indeed to accomplish it. 2002. Professor Cook.] Are you prepared to say you thiuk it undesirable ?—I do not know exactly, because its- desirability would depend very much on whether anything better could be had. What I mean is, that if I saw that secondary education could be entirely divided from what might be called " collegiate " education, and that a fair opportunity would be given to the same students to have the collegiate education after the other, I should certainly say it would be desirable to have them divided ; but I am not prepared to say how it is to be done. 2003. Professor Sale.] Do you think that the quality of the education given in the lower part of the Auckland Grammar School is such as ought to be given in a school professing to bo a grammar school ?—I think not: that is to say, I think there ought to be a higher grade to begin with. The effect of the present system is that there are a large number of boys who are doing very elementary work indeed, which would be quite as well done somewhere else, and which, if done somewhere else, would leave men free to do work which they are fit for of a higher class. 2004. Do you think that, with the present means at tho command of the governing body, that change could be made ?—The only way in which I can conceive of the change being successfully made would be by obliging all boys presenting themselves for admission to go through some examination, and the effect of that would be to throw elsewhere a large number of boys who now form the lower school. Ido not know that the governors of the College and Grammar School could provide for them if they shut them out, as it were, or how they could even be called upon to provide for them. 2005. I suppose you would say that at present the lower school pays in a great measure for the upper school ?—Certainly. 2006. Would not the removal of these younger pupils therefore impoverish the school ? —lt would, of course. 2007. Could you make the school a distinct grammar school, teaching only boys, say, from twelve years of age, without seriously interfering with its moans ? —No, of course not: that is to say, the total funds would be reduced considerably; but, in proportion to the number of scholars that would be taught at the school, Ido not know that there would not be ample funds at their command still. Ido not profess to know exactly what the funds amount to now r, but my impression is that they could be made to do the work very well. That was the impression I had when I was intimately acquainted with the state of things. If you fixed a mere " age" limit, I should think that would be very undesirable, because some boys in the lower school are as old as many in the upper —backward boys from the country ; and lam afraid that always will be the case in a place situated as this is. There are boys who are kept at home for one reason or another until they arc thirteen or fourteen years of age.

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:, 2008. Do you think an entrance examination would be preferable to fixing a limit of age ?— I think so. 2009. Dr. Wallis.] Apart from those examinations which you have conducted, have you had an extensive practical acquaintance with the actual work of teaching? —Certainly not. 2010. Supposing we had, in Auckland, a college similar to those established in Christchurch and Dunedin, do you not think that, with such a college along with one of our grammar schools, we should be in a much better condition with regard to education than we are in now ? —Certainly. 2011. Do you think that the teaching of young men who are undergraduates of the University must necessarily interfere with the carrying out of the proper work of a grammar school ? —As a matter of fact, I have no hesitation in saying lam sure it does. Supposing you bave three or four or half a dozen young men who are undergraduates, perhaps in the second year : These pupils require the whole attention of at least one master; in fact, they have a large part of the attention of three masters, and they absorb an immense part of the teaching power of the school to themselves. 2012. Professor Cook.] Would you say that the efficiency of the Grammar School is really impaired by the presence of these undergraduates in the school?—My impression is this: that the highest tuition given in the Grammar School is not higher than the highest tuition given in the higher class of grammar schools at Home. I mean to say that the sixth form in one of our best schools at Home would have read more classics, and quite as much mathematics, as the boys in the upper class of the Grammar School, whether undergraduates or not. 2013. Professor Shand.] And I suppose you think that if the school were simply a grammar school, and had nothing to do with preparing students for degrees, it ought to carry its most advanced pupils quite as high as it does now ? —I think so. 2014. Bey. W. JE. Mulgan.] What subjects do they read in the Auckland College and Grammar School ? How far in classics do they go ? —There is no Greek taught in the school at all, and in Latin they take up all the ordinary books. In the highest division, of course, their work is laid down—they must take what is in the Calendar of the University; but, generally speaking, the higher classes read Horace, and it may be Lucretius, and one or two other authors. I think they were reading the Georgics and some other things of that kind, but not Greek. Ido not know whether it is because nobody wants to learn Greek, or whether it is because they do not profess to teach it. 2015. Dr. Wallis.] Do you think that the boys and girls here are more precocious than those at Home ? —My only experience of examinations at Home was as one being examined, so that I cannot speak with any degree of certainty about tho comparative merits in that way ; but I think that young persons here, more particularly girls, are precocious in their intellectual development. 2016. Professor Cook.] Supposing such a college as Dr Wallis has referred to were established here, what do you think would be its prospects of success ? Can you give us any idea, roughly, of the number of students it might have within, say, four or five years ? —I think it would succeed. Of course it would depend on the efficiency of the persons conducting it; but I think if it were conducted by suitable persons in whom the public had every confidence there would be no difficulty in getting from fifteen to twenty students in a very short time. 2017. Undergraduate members of the University ?—Tes. When I say "in a short time," I mean iv the course of a couple of years or so. I know of many who would very much like to be put in a position to attend lectures in the proper sense of the word, who do not go to the Grammar School, and for one reason and another would not go, but who would like to be able to attend lectures. 2018. Professor Shand.] Do you think such a college would be largely attended by persons who did not wish to become graduates, but desired to attend special classes and study special subjects, simply for their own improvement ?—Tes. I think it would be used in that way by a good many. Of course there are a number of young men who are preparing for professions, aud who would be very glad to have an opportunity of studying special subjects—young men who at present have to get private tuition, being too old to go to school. 2019. The Chairman.] Tou are acquainted with the principles under which the University of New Zealand is established: do you think such a University meets the requirements of the colony ?—I am acquainted with the principles on which it is established ; but I am not clear that there is anything in those principles to shut out the colleges at each of the centres of population as a part of the University ; and it seems to me that the University might perform all the functions required if there were colleges, properly so called —affiliated colleges—in the different centres of population, distinct from the grammar schools. 2020. Professor Shand.] Besides colleges for general education, would you be in favour of establishing special colleges for educating young men for professions, such as a law school or a school of mines?—My impression is that we are hardly advanced enough yet; our population would hardly justify the establishment of such colleges at present. No doubt it would be most advisable by-and-by ; but, looking at it from the point of view of Auckland, I do not see where there is sufficient demand at present. Tnere has been a good deal said about a school of mines, but I very much doubt whether it would be largely taken advantage of if it were established. 2021. Dr. Wallis.] Could you suggest any mode by which the education given to law students could be improved ? —My own impression is that the education which best fits a man to be a lawyer is that liberal education which fits him best to take any other active part in life. Ido not think he requires a special training from his earliest boyhood to become a lawyer, because I think the tendency of law studies is rather too much to narrow people down, and it is perhaps as well that there should be as little of the narrowing process done at an early ago as possible. It would be better if a candidate for the law were obliged to pass an examination which would really test whether he had received a liberal education up to a certain point. 2022. Would you approve of every person studying for the law being a 8.A., an M.A., or something of that kind ? —I should very much like to see it. It might perhaps be a hardship in many cases, but, at the same time, if nobody were taken advantage of by the sudden change, I do not think it could be objected to at all. In many places in other parts of the world it is practically insisted upon. Of course, the profession in New Zealand being still undivided, the same rules do not apply in all respects as apply

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in other countries wdiere they are divided ; but in the other colonies no one can be admitted as a barrister unless he has either a B.A. degree, or submits himself to an equivalent examination before going up. It appears to me there is no valid reaaon why a different rule should apply to a barrister from that which applies to a solicitor, because in these colonies, or at all events in New Zealand, the solicitor does all that the barrister does aud vice versa, so that really there should be no objection to make them subject to the same rules. 2023. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Before a man can become a solicitor must he serve a certain number of years m a solicitor's office ? Must he be bound ? —He must be bound for at least three years. 2024. Supposing he took a degree at a University, could the time be abridged ? —I think it might be abridged. 2025. Professor Shand.] Can you tell us how* students are prepared for their examination in law ? —They prepare themselves as far as they are prepared. They get no assistance unless they happen to be in the office of some person who takes an interest in them. 2026. Do you not think it would be desirable that there should be some means of giving assistance to such students ?—Very desirable indeed ; it would be a great advantage. To that extent, of course, I would say at once that a school of law would be most desirable. When I spoke before I was thinking of a regular department of a University or college established here, and of course young men who are working in lawyers' offices could not be regular attendants, except at evening lectures or something of that kind. 2027. Professor Cook.] Do you not think it desirable that in any college, such as Dr. Wallis referred to just now, there should be not only lectures on technical law, such as the law of property, the law of procedure, and so on, but also lectures in what could be described as the more philosophical department of law, such as Eoman law and general jurisprudence ? —I. certainly think so. I think the great defect of the legal education obtained by young men generally who enter the profession, is that it consists of nothing more than the technical branches ; they have never been taught anything of the underlying principles of law. 2028. Professor Shand.] In the case of a young man who attended a systematic course of lectures on such subjects, would it not be safe to reduce the time of his apprenticeship, so as to give him time to attend such lectures ?—Tes, I think it would be very safe. The only question is how the lawyers would look at it, whether they would be willing to take articled clerks if they did not have their services for the full time. Iv New Zealand, or at all events in Auckland, people do not care to pay large premiums for their sons, as is done at Home, and the work of ihe young men is taken by the lawyers as payment for the advantage obtained by being indentured ; and if you were to attempt to cut away the advantage from the solicitors, and give the advantage to the students, the former might put an obstacle in the way. I do not think they would in all cases, but of course it would make some difference. 2029. Professor Sale.] Tou said you would be in favour of insisting upon the qualification of a B.A. degree for candidates for the legal profession, but that in some cases it might be a hardship ? —I mean that there are young men who have already begun the ordinary course of becoming indentured for five years. Their rights I think should be respected ; they have come in under a certain arrangement, and should not be placed in a false position through any subsequent legislation. 2030. Tou mean we should respect existing rights? —Tes ; and I suppose it may safely be trusted that the Legislature would never pass an Act to do aw ray with the rights of these young men. 2031. I was thinking rather of future cases, —whether it might not in some instances be a hardship to compel a young man to attend courses of lectures during the day ?—I was not looking upon that as a hardship, because it appears to me that if a young man proposes to enter a learned profession it is no hardship to insist upon his being learned. 2032. Then you think that to insist upon candidates for the legal profession going through a regular University course of studies would not be a hardship ?—Not at all. 2033. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] In both departments ? —Tes. I. should certainly say it would be a great mistake to exempt one department. 2034. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How would that act iv parts of the country where there would be no opportunities of attending lectures ? The students would in that case have to get their legal education iv the centres of population? —But is not that precisely the case with other things? If a man wants to be a doctor he must get his education somewhere where there is a hospital. 2035. The Chairman.] Do I quite understand you that every candidate for admission as a solicitor should be compelled to acquire a degree from the University of New Zealand or some other University ?—I think that, respecting all existing rights of persons who have already entered upon the existing course, there would be no hardship in that, but that there would be a great advantage to the profession. 2036. Professor Shand.] Would it in your opinion be an advantage to the community as well as to the profession ?—A very great advantage. 2037. Professor Sale.] Tou mean by raising the tone of the profession ? —Tes. 2035. The Chairman.] Would it not impose a great deal of extra expense upou candidates for admission to be obliged to go through the University course ?—Only in those supposed cases of the outlying districts, where a young man might otherwise qualify, but could not do so living there, owing to the want of a college. It would not impose any considerable extra expense upon such a student if he were living in town. There would be no expense beyond the University fees, which I presume would be made as light as possible. 2039. I think I understood from a previous answer that you were of opinion that passing the examination would be sufficient without attendance on lectures? —I do not consider that to pass an examination somehow is equivalent to the advantage of having the training which a regular attendance at lectures might give. At the same time, until everything was done to enable people fairly to attend those lectures, I think every advantage should be given to those who merely produce the necessary knowledge. If lectureships were established, it would not make any difference, if every one were obliged to take a degree, whether they attended those particular lectures or other lectures. I

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mean, there could be no reason why they should not attend those lectures, and there would be every reason why they should, if it were in the way of their profession, so that I do not see why there should be any hardship. 2040. Tou are aware that at present the New Zealand University provides no lecturers whatever? —I am quite aware of that: that is, as a University ; the University is not a teaching body at present. But I was rather supposing, from the tenor of the questions, that the idea was that in some way, either directly or indirectly, it should become a teaching power —that that was in the mind of the questioner ; and it was only viewing it in that light that I gave the answers which I did. Of course I know they could not do it as at present constituted. 2041. I understand, then, that your opinion is that, if there was a college with a staff of professors established at Auckland, law students should be required to attend the lectures and pass the examinations of such college, supposing it to be subordinate to the New Zealand University ? —Certainly; that is my meaning. 2042. Professor Shand.] Do you know of any sources from which such a college could be maintained iv Auckland? —There is an endowment to the extent of 30,000 acres of laud in this province which is really, and, I suppose, solely, applicable to such purpose —10,000 acres in the Waikato, and 20,000 acres at two different points on the East Coast, all of which I believe to be very excellent property. Some time ago a letter was written to me, under the impression that I was Chairman of the Board of Education, or some other Board, asking whether I could not get a lease of one of these blocks for a man who wanted to rent it —one of the blocks on the East Coast. I made some inquiries, and I ascertained that the man has been using the land for years, running his sheep upon it, and paying nothing, no one seeming to have any power to do anything with it. He absolutely offered a yearly rental of 9d. an acre for the whole block of 10,000 acres, and he is still using the land and paying nothing. , 2043. Tou think, then, that an immediate revenue could be obtained from these reserves ? —I am certain it could. Ido not know exactly how much, but I am quite sure that sufficient to form the nucleus of a fund could bo got almost at once. 2044. Professor Sale.] Do you know anything of the other two reserves ? —I know the Taupiri reserve. I have been on it and seen the land. Some of the land is good, and some of it is not. I should say on the whole it was a valuable endowment. 2045. Do you think the land at Taupiri might shortly be made available ? —I feel sure it might. 2046. The Chairman.] From your knowledge of what is being done with regard to giving University education in Otago and Canterbury, are you of opinion that this portion of tbe colony is ripe for receiving similar instruction in University education?—My knowledge of what is being done in Otago and Canterbury is very limited. I know of course in a general way that these colleges have been established with professorships and lectureships and so on, and that there have been some students, but how many I have no idea, nor what would be considered a sufficient number of students to render it desirable to have a college established here. But I believe that if from fifteen to twenty regular students, besides those law students who might by any Act of the Legislature be compelled to come in, would be considered sufficient for the establishment of a college similar to either the Otago or Canterbury one, that number could be secured here within a very short time. I believe lam speaking quite within the mark. The Eev. Samuel Edgeb made an affirmation and was examined. 2047. The Chairman.] The Commission wish to ascertain your views as to the present working of the New Zealand University ?—I am not sure that I can give an opinion on that point. I have my opinion on the question of education in all its branches, but I have not had much practical acquaintance with Universities since I took my degree, thirty years ago. 2048. Do you think that the New Zealand University has tended to advance education in the colony ? —Tes, I have no doubt on that point at all. I think that the admission of my daughter to University honours has given an immense impetus to female education. My own prejudice—perhaps it is a prejudice —has always been very much in favour of home or family education as a basis. I have always seen strong objections to gathering together a very large number of boys without any union with giyls, or a very large number of girls without any intercourse with boys. I have always been a strong advocate of mixed education —-training the boys and girls together; because my views, thought out carefully through life, have induced me to give greater prominence to the moral part of education than is ever given to it. I think that the intellectual education cannot be properly conducted without considerable attention being given to the moral education of the child. That is one strong reason why I have always advocated home education. My own children have all been educated at home, almost exclusively. 2049. Dr. Wallis.] Do you not think that the moral education can be given sufficiently well in public schools ? —Yes, I think it could, but I think it would require a very superior class of teachers. I am afraid we have not the teachers who are disposed to attach sufficient importance to the moral aspects of education ; otherwise, I do not see why they should not be able to do it, although I still think that the boys would need the softening and elevating influence of the girls, and the girls would need the strengthening influence of the boys. 2050. I suppose you discriminate strictly between moral education and religious education ?—By moral education I certainly do not mean denominational education. I am as strong an opponent of denominational education as lam an advocate of moral education. By moral education I mean teaching children to exercise their finest feelings, and to act from a sense of honour, which I am perfectly convinced can be done with regard to both the boys and the girls. 2051. The Chairman.] Could you tell us whether iv the United Kingdom the system has prevailed up to the present of teaching boys and girls in the same secondary schools, or even in the Universities ? —I do not think it has been tested in England ;it has been in Scotland, where, I believe, it has proved eminently successful. I believe the same may be said of Switzerland, where universally, I think, boys

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and girls arc taught together ; and I think the results produced in Switzerland are as high and as satisfactory as in any country in the world. 2052. Dr. Wallis.] In the primary schools in Scotland boys and girls are taught together; but are you aware whether that is also the case in the secondary and higher schools ?—I cannot say I know how far it prevails. 2053. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] In taking boys and girls together in these schools, is it done intentionally or is it a matter of necessity ?—I believe in Switzerland it is done intentionally—it is part of their system. 2054. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you been able to form any opinion as to the comparative powers of boys and girls in regard to mathematical subjects ?—I believe that the girls are fully as capable as the boys. Ido not consider that my own children have any unusual powers at all, but that their success is attributable to careful education at the first and throughout. It is in mathematics I think especially that they have excelled. If I were asked to give my opinion as to what is necessary to forward what might be called University education, I should say these two things: First of all, a guarantee to the public, throughout all our secondary schools, of efficiency in the teachers —thorough competency to impart an efficient education—either in the shape of being able to take a degree or to take a high-class certificate. I think that is greatly wanting, especially in our girls' schools. The schools should also bo subjected to inspection and examination. And it appears to me that what are greatly wanted in a place like Auckland are special classes, just for the few —for there are a few, and always will be —who are capable of entering upon a University course, —special classes adapted for all who could be gathered together from the different secondary schools in Auckland, and who perhaps altogether might constitute a score. If provision could be made for the finishing off of their education before they became connected with the University, a w rant would be supplied. 2055. Dr. Wallis.] In other words, you believe that there is a great need in Auckland for a college, such as exists in Dunedin and in Christchurch, with a staff of professors, which should be open to both sexes ? —Tes; only lam not sure that we should need a separate collegiate institution. For instance, I would take the Grammar School here : The teachers there are perfectly competent to give what it seems to me is necessary, and they are very much wasting their powers over a number of boys who are not capable of appreciating them. If their energies could be directed, say, to the twenty or thirty more forward of the scholars in Auckland who are capable of taking a high standard, both boys and girls, I think that would answer all the requirements of the place, without going to the expense of setting up a fresh educational establishment. 2056. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that such an institution as you have now referred to would be sufficient for the whole of an undergraduate course ?—I do. 2057. Including preparation for honours as well as for degrees ?—Tes. I may put it in this way : Of course I know most about my own children, and what they have wanted has been a kind of finishing to the groundwork of higher education they have received at home. It stands to reason that if they are to enter upon a University course they require something more than they can possibly get at horne —something which they might get at special classes instituted for such a purpose ; and I think that the forward scholars from the different schools are in just the same position. 2058. Dr. Wallis.] Considering the extent of the population of Auckland—upwards of 30,000— do you think one grammar school would be sufficient, or should we require several grammar schools ?— I think one would be quite sufficient, if it were confined to its legitimate purpose of preparing for the University the more forward scholars. 2059. I am speaking of an institution that aims solely at preparing students for the University. Would you approve of such an institution ? —Tes; only I should wish to avoid running into any unnecessary expense. A great many scholars entering upon the University course would not be content with just matriculating': they would say, "I should like to take a scholarship." Now it requires very nearly as much preparation to take a junior scholarship as it does to pass the B.A. degree; in some respects the junior scholarship examination is more difficult than that for the B.A. degree. I am sure it was more difficult than the B.A. degree examinations in the English Universities. 2060. Professor Shand.] Are you aware of the extent of the requirements for honours in the University of New Zealand ? —Tes ; I know they are very extensive indeed. 2061. Do you consider the present institution would be quite sufficient to train undergraduates for honours ? —As far as I know, I think the masters of the Auckland College and Grammar School could train them for honours. 2062. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In saying that the examination for the junior scholarship was as severe as the examination for the degree of 8.A., did you refer to the old standard for the 8.A., which the University has abandoned, or to its recent standard ? —I presume it would be the old standard, as I have not much acquaintance with its recent proceedings. 2063. The Chairman.] Did you say that, in your opinion, there was rather too much of elementary education given in the Grammar School as compared with grammar-school education ? —No ; I did not mean to convey that impression. What I meant was that the capability of teaching in the College and Grammar School here is beyond the capacity of the scholars, taking the bulk of them; so that a good deal of the teaching power is really wasted by not being applied to its very best purpose. 2064. But does that not arise from some of the teachers being obliged to devote their powers to elementary education ?—Tes, I presume it would. 2065. On the whole, do you think that University education, as we understand it, can be combined with the teaching in the present Grammar School, or ought there to be two distinct institutions —one for secondary education and one for higher or University education ? —I certainly think it would be for the advantage of every one that they should not be combined. 2066. Professor Sale.] Then what I understand you to mean is, that you think the present staff of masters are quite capable of conducting a college giving a University education, and you would wish to see them giving up their grammar-school work, and turning the upper part of the Grammar School into such a college ?—That certainly would be my feeling. 2067. Then what would become of the Grammar School properly so called ?—I hardly know. 13— H. 1.

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2068. It is clear the masters would not have time for both? —No, they would not. I think they are even now taxed beyond what is proper. What I want to convey is, that I see a need of special instruction for the advanced scholars. 2069. Dr. Wallis.] Considering the circumstances of the colony, would you prefer that the University should remain as it is, a purely examining body, or that there should be two, three, or four collegiate institutions, each with a staff of professors, which, associated together, should form the University of New Zealand ? —My preference always has been in favour of its being an examining body, supposing that all the large centres of population could be supplied with special instruction for advanced scholars. I think what we mainly want is to give a guarantee to the public that the education shall be thoroughly up to the mark, and wo have that guarantee in an examining body. 2070. Professor Sale.] Do you see any advantage in the teaching institutions being affiliated to the University ?—No, I cannot say that I do, especially as I am so strong an advocate of home education. The plan I have indicated would answer all the ends, for, if special provision were made for higher instruction, such as I have mentioned, it would of course be compulsory on all entering the University that they should pass through that education. 2071. I asked you whether you saw any advantage in affiliation. By affiliation it is implied that, as a rule, the course is to be gone through; but, if there is no such thing as affiliation, then the student gets his education wherever he can —it may be at home or anywhere else ? —lf that affiliation merely means passing through a certain course of study, my opinion would be in favour of it; but Ido not see that that implies affiliation in the more ordinary sense, in connection with a certain institution. 2072. By the rules of the University, affiliation means that certain institutions are recognized by the University as supplying the necessary instruction, and, except in exceptional cases, where the student obtains permission from the Chancellor, he has to attend the course and to pass the annual examination. It' a student were allowed to present himself for examination without going through any such course, affiliation would be no longer necessary —it would disappear?— The question is a very difficult one. I have two feelings, in opposite directions, you may say. For instance, a number of institutions are affiliated with the University which I cannot feel at all guarantee the sort of education that I think any one should have received who becomes a graduate of the University. On the other hand, it appears to me that it is not enough that a scholar should be able to pass a certain examination. He should also be able to guarantee that he has really gone through a certain course of education ; because it is one thing to pass an examination, and a very different thing to be really a scholar. I can see that there are great difficulties in carrying it out satisfactorily. 2073. Dr. Wallis.] If there was such a college in Auckland for higher teaching, do you think there would be found twenty or thirty young men to attend it ? —I do not think there would at present. I think there would in the course of say four or five years. There is a great impulse now in that direction. 2074. Tour opinion is that few opportunities have hitherto been given to the people of Auckland of studying the more advanced parts of education ? —Very few ; none whatever for the girls. 2075. Professor Cook.] Would you prefer as a University for New Zealand such an institution as the London University, the graduates of which, as you are aware, get their education as best they can, and merely pass examinations; or a system of affiliated colleges, one in each of the large centres of population, such colleges, as iv the case of the Queen's University, Ireland, composing the University ? —1 think the great want is to have a body of examiners, to secure to the public by the examinations a really high-class education. But I can see, on the other hand, that we do want these opportunities of more advanced study of which I have spoken. As to the practical method of carrying that out, lam hardly prepared to speak. 2076. Do I understand that you do not think y rourself qualified to give a definite answer to the question I put, because under either system it might be possible to provide a very competent body of examiners ? —lf it is put in that bald way, as to coming to a decision between those two systems, I should hardly like to give a fixed opinion. 2077. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I believe you are a graduate of the University of London ?—Tes. 2078. Tou are aware that at the time when you graduated it was necessary that a man should be an alumnus of an affiliated college ?—Tes. 2079. You are also aware that that practice has since been done away with ? —Tes. 2080. Do you think that the former practice of tho University of London, or its later practice, is to be preferred ? —I have really had no experience of its later practice, as I have been out here all the time; but I should hardly like to give an opinion. I think I have pointed out clearly what my feeling is: that there is a want —an unquestionable want —for high-class education for the advanced scholars, to be provided in some way or other. I should not care whether it was provided through the University, or separate from that institution. Supposing the Government undertook the whole business, and said, " We will constitute a University purely on the examination principle, and confine it strictly to that; and then, altogether apart from the University, we shall secure this other end of finding higher education for the advanced scholars," I might be disposed to say I would prefer that, and keep the one quite distinct from the other; but lam quite sure the two are needed. Mr. D. L. Murdoch was in attendance, and examined. 2081. The Chairman.] Tou are one of the governors of the Auckland College and Grammar School?—Tes. 2082. Is it your opinion that the education given in that institution, which is the highest given in Auckland, is sufficient for the requirements of this portion of the colony ? —I do not feel quite competent to answer that question. 2083. Tou are aware that in Otago and Canterbury there are establishments for education above grammar-school education: do you think that if such an institution wero established here it would be patronized ? —I should think it would, largely.

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2084. In your capacity as Inspector of the Bank of New Zealand you are in the habit of getting youths from tho Auckland College and Grammar School ? —Tes. 2085. Do you find them fairly educated in arithmetic, such as you require in the Bank ?—Tes; fairly. 2086. Would you state whether you think the present buildings at the disposal of the Grammar School are adequate for the purposes of the school? —-I have not seen the actual rooms that are being occupied by the school, two of which I have never been inside of, but I have a general knowledge of the buildings, and I think the present arrangement is most inconvenient and inadequate. There is one very great drawback, which is uniformly noticed by all having children at the school whom I have spoken to, and that is the want of a playground. The boys are obliged to play in the public street. This is a want which it strikes me will be equally felt when tho new school is built. There is no room at the proposed site, aud no playground for the senior boys, unless they go on to the common ground in the Barrack Square, which is open to other schools as well. 2057. As one of the governors of the Grammar School, you are aware that it is proposed shortly to have a better building erected for the school?—Tes. 2088. And you think that even then there will not be a sufficient playground? —Certainly not. 2059. Professor Shand.] Tou said there was sufficient space in the Barrack Square: is that near the site of the new building?—lt is within one hundred yards of it. 2090. And would form a commodious playground? —Tes; but open to any one who chose to occupy it. There would bo constant collisions between the schools for occupation of it; it is not sufficiently large to accommodate all. 2091. Are there any other schools in the neighbourhood?—Tes; there is a very large public school, and another large school at the Choral Hall. 2092. What you wish to express is this: that you think a grammar school, such as is about to be erected, ought to have a playground exclusively for the pupils of the school, and that that cannot be provided for on the present site?— Certainly. I may say that there has been an intention on the part of the governors to make an application to the Government for a grant of a part of the Domain, immediately below the intended school, which would be very well adapted for a playground. It is within three minutes' walk from the school, and is a piece of land to which not much value can be attached by the Domain Board. It is level, and very well suited for the purpose. Ido not thiuk any application has yet been made. 2093. Dr. Wallis.] Is the piece of land you refer to a portion of the present Bowling Green ?— No, a distinct piece of ground. 2094. Professor Shand.] Would it be competent for the Domain Board to set aside part of the Domain as a playground for a school ? —Under authority from the Government I think it would be. 2095. It would not require an Act of the Assembly? —There was apparently no difficulty iv the way when the matter was talked of, and we have only been waiting to see whether the site in question is to be the site for the school before making application. 2096. Professor Cook.] Supposing no such piece were set aside, it would still, I presume, be open to the boys in the school to use that as a playground ? —I should think it could not be exclusively used by the boys of the school. 2097. Still they could use it as forming part of the Public Domain ; they could use that portion of the Domain as a playground now ? —No, they could not do so now, because it is otherwise used. 2098. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would there be any serious difficulty in the way of securing a larger site for the building ? —A very great difficulty, in a convenient position. Every available site that could bethought of was examined before it was determined to adopt this site.i 2099. Do you think the attendance at the school would be seriously affected by its removal to a district in which a sufficiently large site could be obtained ? —I am not aware of any site sufficiently large that would be at all central; to obtain one you would require to cut off one end of the town or the other, and there would be a serious objection to depriving either part of the town of the advantages of the school. 2100. Dr. Wallis.] Contiguous to the site I notice there is a paddock of about three acres, upon which no building stands ? —That is private property. It would cost a very much larger sum of money than we arc in a position to expend. 2101. Professor Shand.] Has the Board of Governors any fund available for purchasing land ? — None. In fact they are at their wits' end now for money to go on with the new building, and without the aid of the Government it would be impossible to go on under the present plan. 2102. I understand that a certain amount of money had been set aside —£5,000? —Tes. 2103. And the interest on that is part of the present revenue of the school ? —No. There are about £7,000 of invested funds which the school has, but tho expenditure and the income are just about evenly balanced at present. Then we applied to the Government for a grant in aid of the building, and they granted us £5,000. That sum we now find will be quite insufficient. According to the plans we have received, the building is estimated to cost considerably over £10,000 —£11,500, I think, with an allowance for extras —and, although the school has £7,000 of invested fuuds. if we took those invested funds to pay for the building we should be deprived of so much of the ordinary income, and should be on our beam-ends for money. 2104. Is it the intention of the Board to use any part of these funds for building?— Had the amount beyond the £5,000 been inconsiderable, we should not have made another appeal to the Government if it had been within £2,000 ; but it is so much in excess of that that we should be quite incompetent to proceed with tho building unless we obtained further assistance. 2105. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Could you state what proportion of the sum you have named as the probable cost of the building is to be applicable to the school, and what proportion to the boardinghouse ?—The original plan did not provide for a boarding-house, and the estimated cost of that was £5,500 ; but, according to the tenders we got for the subsequent plan, the cost of that original plan w rould have been about £7,500, the architect having apparently been quite out in his estimate, in consequence of an increase in the price of material. Then we instructed him to draw a plan providing for

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boarding accommodation, and his estimate for that was £7,800. The lowest tender we have received for that building is a little over £10,000. 2106. Dr. Wallis.] Are you speaking of the school and boardiDg-house as being made with brick ? —Wood. The brick would cost about £1,600 in addition. 2107. Professor Cook.] This £5,500 was not a tender, but an architect's estimate ? —Tes. I may say that the plans have been drawn with strict regard to economy —economy both of money and space ; but, if there is to be a boarding-house attached to the school, it cannot be done with less accommodation than is provided in the plans —accommodation for about forty boarders. 2108. Dr. Wallis.] When this sum was asked from the Government, was any hint given that a boarding-house was going to be established ? Did the Government have any idea that there was to be a boarding-house ?—I rather think it was in consequence of hints from members of the Government that the idea was made a practical one. 2109. The Chairman.] As a matter of fact, are you of opinion that a necessity exists for a boarding establishment in connection with the Auckland College and Grammar School ?—I am aware that a great many of the scholars attend the school from a very inconvenient distance, and I have heard that a good many would take advantage of the boarding school if it were in existence. 2110. Professor Cook.] Do you not think that difficulty might be overcome by merely allowing the headmaster, or the headmaster and second master, to take boarders, finding their own house accommodation, if they thought it worth their while to enter into this boarding arrangement ?—I am not aware of any place that they could secure in Auckland which would enable them to keep a number of boarders likely to prove remunerative. 2111. But they might build, surely?— That is another question. I do not know how it is in the South, but I do not think our masters are in a position to put up such houses. 2112. Dr. Wallis.] Are you aware that there are any boarding establishments in connection with the grammar schools in the South ?—I understand so —in Nelson, Wellington, and, I think, in Christchurch. 2113. If it were decided to establish in Auckland a college similar to those in Dunedin and Christchurch, with a staff of professors, and that the present Auckland College and Grammar School should continue to perform grammar-school work, would it be necessary to have this expensive institution consisting of a grammar school and a boarding-house ? —lf the school was to be looked upon as the most efficient—and the prevailing idea is that it ought to be —I think the same necessity which exists now for a boarding establishment would exist in the event of a college being established. 2114. But would you not prefer two institutions —one a collegiate institution with a staff of professors, and the other a grammar school— to an institution combining the two together ?—Tes. Still, as a parent living in the country, and at a distance which would make it inconvenient to send my boys to the Grammar School, I think while they were at that school I should like to have the opportunity of fixing them by board. I think the same necessity for a boarding-school will exist even in the event of a college being established. 2115. Professor Shand.] If the Government were to give you funds for erecting a boarding establishment, would the Board, in your opinion, be willing to give a guarantee to the Government that only reasonable terms should be charged for the board ?—I should think so. 2116. Have you any idea of the amount ?—Well, it has only been talked of so far. I think the suggestion was that the charge should be £50 per annum for each boy —assimilating the charge, I think, as nearly as we could ascertain, to the charges in the South. There has been no resolution or definite terms named. 2117. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou said, I think, that a portion of the Domain could be procured as a playground ? —I apprehend it could. lam not aware of any difficulty. 2118. Is it near the present site of the school ?—lt is within three minutes' walk of the site. 2119. If a place for a playground could be procured there, could not an additional portion be obtained, so as to have the new grammar school and boarding-house built on the Domain ground ? — That, I believe, was Sir George Grey's idea—that the school ought to be there; but it is a most unhealthy site, being exceedingly low and badly drained, and tho foul smells there sometimes are enough to breed a pestilence. 2120. And that could not be remedied ?—I do not think so. It would be very expensive. 2121. Would it make a good playground then ? The boys would only be there for an hour or so during the day ? —I do not think it would interfere much with their play ; but, as a place to live in, it would be most objectionable. The present site is on the height. 2122. Professor Sale.] Tou know that within the last year the College has endeavoured to supply both University and school education. Do you think it desirable that it should do that ? Do you think it can do it without interfering with its work as a grammar school ?—I have really had so little time to devote to the work of the school that I am not qualified to express an opinion. 2123. As being connected with the Bank of New Zealand y rou employ a good many young men ?— Tes ; a great many. 2124. Do you find in candidates for employment any deficiency which is more common than others ? What defect do you generally find ?—Nothing but what may be attributed to the boys leaving school too early. I think it is a common failing in the colony —that parents and children are both anxious that the boys should quit school too soon. 2125. Then you think that usually their general education all round has not been carried far enough when they come to you? —Not usually. I notice particularly that the lower branches of education have apparently not been so well attended to as the others. I very rarely meet with a good writer, for instance ; spelling is fair, usually r; but the handwriting is generally very defective. 2126. This is in boys of fourteen and upwards ? —Sixteen and seventeen. 2127. Professor Shand.] Does the Bank give any preference to applicants who have passed some public examination, such as the Civil Service examination ? —Not a preference ; but, all other things being equal, a preference would be shown to such a lad. But really the demand for boys has been so

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great that we have not been able to lay down any special rules for their admission to the service of the 1 Bank. Wo are only too glad to get eligible lads in whatever shape they are—whether they pass an examination or not —if they have received a fair education. 2128. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Doe 3 your experience here afford you any opportunity of instituting a comparison between boys admitted here and those admitted at Home ?—I think the colonial boys will compare fairly with the average of boys coming from Home. We have not many boys coming from Home about whom my observation would enable me to express an opinion. It is usually men of more advanced years who come seeking employment; but the few lads I have seen from Home, with whom I could compare the colonial youth, I do not think are much in advance of the boys here. Mr. F. A. Whitaker, M.H.R., was sworn and examined. J 2129. The Chairman.] I think you have boon connected with the profession of the law in New Zealand from the foundation of the colony ?—Tes. 2130. And you have held for several years the position of Attorney-General?—Tes. 2131. Have you given any consideration to the question whether the University of New Zealand should be made use of in any way as an examining body for admission to the practice of the law? —I have not. 2132. It has been stated to us in evidence that candidates for admission to the Bar should be compelled to undergo an examination by the University up to the B.A. degree. Are you of opinion that they should be compelled to take the degree of B.A. in the University of New Zealand ? —I think the time has now arrived when persons before being called to the Bar in New Zealand should pass an examination —whether by the University or any other body —equal to a B.A. degree, as usually granted by the Universities. As to the details, the best mode of conducting tho examination in order to suit the convenience of all the parties—that I have never considered. 2133. I understand you to mean that the examination should be in general knowledge, distinct from legal knowledge ?—Yes, —that there should be an examination in general knowledge and also in law. 2134. Professor Shand.] And the standard for the examination in general knowledge would be equal to that usually required for the B.A. degree ? —I think so. 2135. The Chairman.] You think that should be made applicable to all candidates for admission to the position of solicitor ? —No, I think not. At present every solicitor has a right to be a barrister, and every barrister to be a solicitor. The Act now on the Statute Book was drawn by me when I was Attorney-General in 1861, upon my own responsibility. I think it was all that could be done then, but the time has arrived when an alteration should be made ; and it appears to me that it would be desirable that those who wish to be called to the Bar should be subject to this examination ; that there should be a lighter and easier examination for those who are solicitors, but that every barrister should pass the higher examination, and be able to act also as solicitor. 2136. Dr. Wallis.] A complete separation between the two branches ?—No ; I would allow every man who passed the higher examination for a barrister to act, if he pleased, as a solicitor, but a man who passed only a solicitor's examination should not be permitted to act as a barrister. 2137. Professor Shand.] Would you make that proposal in the interests of the profession, or in the interests of the community ? —ln the interests of both—of the profession and the community. The community, I think, would be interested even more than the profession, but the change I propose would be an advantage to both. Of course proper notice should be given, so as not to take people by surprise who are now looking forward to be called to the Bar as solicitors under the present regulations. The matter now rests entirely with the Judges, and I imagine that the examination in one part of the country may be of a very different character from that in another part. I think it should be uniform throughout the colony, and I think the same examiners should examine all the candidates in law. 2138. The GhairmanJ] Are the examinations now conducted solely by the Judges ?—I believe so. 2139. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that, in places where colleges connected with the University arc established, it is desirable that special instruction for law students should be provided? —I think it would be desirable. 2140. And do you think that, in connection with that, there should be a faculty of law iv the University—a course in law instituted ?—Yes, I think that would be desirable. 2141. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Do you thiuk that solicitors should uudergo an examination in general and legal knowledge as well as barristers ?—Yes, only in a milder form. 2142. Professor Cook.] Supposing a student wanted to qualify only as a solicitor, and did not propose to take the higher examination in law, and supposing, as a preliminary, he were to graduate as a 8.A., do you think it w rould be desirable to lessen the term of his articles ? In England the apprenticeship is reduced from five to three years-under these circumstances. —Yes ; I think some encouragement might be given in that way. 2143. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that, in such a case, a solicitor would require a larger premium ?—I do not think solicitors get premiums in New Zealand —not to any extent: at all events, I can answer for this part of the colony. As a rule, I think that is one of the great objections to the present system. Clerks are taken because they are useful, and they get their articles in consideration for their services. That has been carried to an extent which has been very mischievous, and it is still going on. 2144. Professor Cook.] Tou think too much of their time is given to clerical services, and not enough attention paid to the study of their profession ?—That is very much the case. For instance, a solicitor finds that a clerk is very convenient; he finds, also, that he can reduce the expenses by giving him his articles instead of a salary, and, at all events, if he does not withdraw the whole salary, he pays him a smaller one ; and that practice, I think, has been carried to an excess. 2145. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What is tho principal objection to such a system as that ? —A man who has had no education whatever can be articled, and at the end of the time can be admitted to practice, subject to a very light examination. Previously to the institution of an examination, of course he

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could get admitted without having any education of any kind, beyond being able to write a good hand. That, however, is not the case now. 2146. The objection, then, as I understand it, is that usually the man who obtains his articles in this way is a less educated man ?—Not, I think, sufficiently educated for the purpose of practising the profession. 2147. The Chairman.] As a citizen of Auckland, the Commission would like to hoar your opinion as to whether the present system of education as regards University education is sufficient for this portion of the colony, as compared with the education being given in Dunedin through their University, or in Christchurch through thoir College ?—I can hardly answer the question satisfactorily, because I have never gone into the matter in reference to the Otago University or the Canterbury College ; but my own impression at present is that it is very inferior here, and that it ought not to be so. I think that these things should, as far as possible, be uniform throughout the colony. 2148. Tou are aware that at present an attempt i 3 being made to combine Ehiversity education with grammar-school education in the Auckland College and Grammar School. Do you think that combination is a satisfactory one, or should the two systems be dissociated ?—I w ras not aware that it was being done, and I have never given it any consideration. 2149. If a college—by which I mean a superior educational establishment to the Grammar School —were established in Auckland, do you think it would be freely patronized ? —-Well, I can hardly say; I do not know any reason why it should not be. 2150. Dr. Wallis.] Supposing there are twenty undergraduates attending each of the colleges in the Middle Island, do you think about twenty would attend a college in Auckland ?—I could hardly express an opinion on that point. 2151. Professor Shand.] Supposing the degree of LL.B. of the University were made a requisite to entering the law as a barrister, how many law students do you think this part of the country would furnish ? —Very few, I should think. It would depend upon the regulations of the University—whether the students would be compelled to live in a college or be allowed to be taught at an outside school. Because, if you mean that you are going to establish a college on the system of Oxford and Cambridge, and compel people to reside in that college, Ido not think you would have many students; the expense would be too great. 2152. It was in the light of the Chairman's last question. Qf course Ido not contemplate that they would reside in the college, but that they would attend lectures at the college, the whole expense varying from £10 to £15 a year ? —I think then you would. But if you put it that residence would be required, as at Oxford and Cambridge, the expense would be not less than £200 or £250 a year, and I do not think there would be. 2153. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou said that the system of giving articles instead of salary was not a good one, because it brought into the profession a less educated class of men. Could not an examination be insisted upon before the articles are signed ?—I think it would not be a bad plan to have a moderate examination then.

Mr. F. Whitdker,

Feb. 17,1879.

Tuesday, 18th February, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Professor Sale, Professor Cook, Professor Shand, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Dr. Hector, Dr. Wallis. Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Mr. Neil Heath was sworn and examined. 2154. The Chairman.] Tou are the headmaster of the Auckland Girls' School ? —I am. 2155. How long have you held that office? —Since April last. 2156. Had you had experience before in conducting a girls' school ? —Not purely a girls' school; I had conducted a mixed school. 2157. Is the system of placing girls' schools under masters instead of mistresses prevailing now at Home to any large extent ? —I think they are disposed to have masters for the senior girls. 2158. Did you bring a copy of the prospectus of the school with you ? —Tes. 2159. Does it show the curriculum of study ? —Tes. 2160. What number of pupils have you at present ? —We had 206 this morning. 2161. Are any of these boarders ?—Seventeen are boarders. 2162. What is the fee for boarders? —£50 a year for the quarterly boarders. Then we have boarders who are called weekly boarders, who go home on Friday night, and the charge for them is £8 10s. per quarter. 2163. Is £50 found to be sufficient to pay for the maintenance of a boarder ? —lt is barely sufficient, and leaves very little remuneration for the increased labour and the trouble and anxiety. 2164. I observe that Mrs. Heath superintends the boarding department?—Tes. 2165. Does she receive any salary ?—No. 2166. What is your own salary ?—£soo. 2167. I think, previously to your taking charge of this school, you were one of the masters in the Auckland College and Grammar School ? —Tes. 2168. How long were you there ?—I was there about five months. 2169. How many assistants have you in conducting the Girls' School ? —I have six assistants who are on the staff, who teach the various subjects mentioned in the curriculum peculiar to the lower school, but only two of these who can assist me in some of the subjects in the upper school. Then I have a lady who assists me with the French for ten hours a week, and gives me six hours a week with German.

Mr. Neil Seaih,

Feb. 18, 1879.

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2170. Professor Cooled] How many assistants have you in the lower school ? —Four. 2171. And only one in the upper school? —Two in the upper school. The fourth form is the lowest form in the upper school. I have a lady partly engaged in that, and partly engaged in the lower school, and the lady who assists me in tho fifth form takes the Latin in the fourth form. The lady who takes the English in the fourth form is unable to take the Latin ; consequently I have to get those in the institution who are capable of doing it. She takes them four days in the week, and I take them the fifth. 2172. Professor Shand.] Does the number you have mentioned include the teachers in the extra branches ?—No. I have only two teachers in the extra branches—not including the piano. I take the singing myself, so that we have no singing-master. The lady who takes the German is now assisting in the French. Mr. Watkins gives four hours a week drawing. 2173. The Chairman.] What special duties do you discharge ? Do you teach the highest class ? — Perhaps the better way would be for me to read tho time-table so far as my own work is concerned. I take the sixth form, which is divided into two, in English for the first hour every morning. On Wednesday we have a lecture on health. On Friday, composition : that is done in the school. The subject is given out at the beginning of the week ; the girls are allowed to read up, and the writing is to be done on Friday, in my presence, leaving me Saturday to correct it. Errors in composition are only indicated. The pupils correct with myself, and do so one by one. Then I put the fifth form along with the sixth, because I feel that the children require to be more under my hand than they were last quarter. So that I really take the first hour with seventy children, reading Shakespeare's " Tempest," and going through Morris's Historical Grammar, and the first hour during the five days in the week I have got the two forms—the sixth and fifth —combined, numbering about seventy on an average. I cannot get satisfactory assistance, and therefore have to take them all myself. Then I do the same with the Latin. We have got sixty-eight girls in these two forms who do Latin. The lady who assists me takes the fourth form, who are commencing Latin, and number forty-four. 2174. Was there any Latin taught in the school before you took charge ? —No ; I commenced the Latin. There is a bifurcation in the time-table at the fourth form. The girls must, unless in very exceptional circumstances, take the Latin up to the end of the verbs. Those who do not wish to go on with Latin can take up the German, and encouragement is given to them to persevere with study. Those who wish to continue Latin do so with me. Then we have French. I take the French grammar and composition in the sixth form on Monday and Wednesday, and on Tuesday aud Thursday I take French grammar and composition in the fifth form. ■ Then on Friday I take them altogether—a general revision in French grammar and composition. So that I have an hour of French every day in the week. Then in the afternoon I take the sixth form through arithmetic, and they have an hour in arithmetic three times a week —Monday, AVednesday, and Friday ; —and for an hour in the afternoon I take the Euclid and algebra of the fifth and sixth forms, numbering seventy. They began algebra when I went there in April. On the Tuesday afternoon the drawing-master comes, and the children do nothing but drawing for the two hours in the afternoon. On the Friday afternoon, immediately after dinner, at half-past one o'clock, I take all the girls in the upper school, numbering 107, in singing. On the Tuesday afternoon at tho same hour, while the upper school are getting their drawing, Igo to the lower school and take them in singing. The second hour of the afternoon is the only hour I have really free to examine into the condition of the other classes. I have not a moment to spare from the beginning of the week to the end, and there are never less than eighty-six scholars in the upper school, and they are nearly all over the age of fourteen. I have about seventy girls over the age of fourteen. 2175. What is the limit of age for admission to the school ? —There does not seem to be any limit of age so far as lam aware. If they can read intelligently a leader in the newspaper or a paragraph, I admit them. Generally the age is about eight or nine. 2176. Professor Cook.] Do I understand you to say that you have six assistants, and are obliged to do so much class teaching yourself ? —Tes. The lowest form consists of thirteen children. One of my assistants has charge of that form entirely, with the exception of the French, when the lady who assists me in French takes that form one hour a week. During tho remaining hours of the week the French is taught by the lady who is specially appointed for the class. The second form numbers twenty-seven, and I find it a very hard matter to get a lady who can manage these twentyseven children. I come now to the third form, which is so large that I have to divide it into two : the upper division consists of thirty-five girls, and the lower division of twenty-four, so that I require really two assistants to do the work that was done last quarter by the lady who helped me, thus making four assistants. Then I come to the fourth form, with another assistant, and the fifth form, with another, making six. in all. I may say, with regard to the time occupied by those assistants in teaching, that we have five hours' teaching a day, and I have tried to make an arrangement by which each lady would have four hours' teaching, one hour to be left over for the correction of exercises in the presence of the children : that would leave four hours' good hard teaching. 2177. The Chairman.] What salaries do your assistants get?—l have two assistants getting £150 a year each ; two who are getting at the rate of £80 a year each ; and two who have been appointed just now, and whose salaries have not yet been settled by the Board —who are there, as it were, on probation. 2178. Do you think these salaries are reasonable?—l think they are for the work I get. 2179. Professor Cook.] Tou said just now you had some difficulty in getting a lady who could manage twenty-seven children ?—Tes —to my satisfaction. 2180. But if you were in a position to pay a higher salary, do you not think you could get a lady who could easily manage twenty-seven ?—I believe I could. 2181. Professor Shand.] Are these salaries higher or lower than the mistresses at primary schools get ? —I am not in a position to answer that question. I cannot state it as a fact, but I think that the lady who came to me and now gets £150, got £150 at a primary school. 2182. Do you know if any of the primary school mistresses are paid as low as £80 ?—I believe some of them are paid less than that sum.

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Feb. 18, 1879.

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2183. The Chairman.] Would you inform the Commission what has been done with regard to the school being conducted as a training school ? —-Very little has been done beyond discussion. Perhaps it would be well that I should tell you what I found when I went to the school. When I went there I found that the then lady-principal had been authorized by the Board to introduce into what she called a training class any girl she thought worthy. I think lam right in saying the lady-principal lectured to all these girls on some subject connected, with education once or twice a week, but the girls never taught. There were only two of them who I thought would make teachers. The others were incapable mentally, and did not seem to me to have any of the teaching power that is requisite. So I first wrote to the Board stating I thought it would be wise to review the conditions on which this training class existed, and suggested that whoever were appointed to the training class should receive their appointment through the Board and not through me —that they should first apply to the Board of Education ; that the Board should then send them to me, or to any other person, to be examined ; and that on the result of that examination, and the general work of the girl, the Board should determine whether or not she should join the training class. That is the condition of matters at present. The Board have, in addition to that, made arrangements for the girls in this training class being employed in the practice of teaching in one or other of the district schools. Up to the present moment no girl has been sent to a district school, and my training class only consists really of one girl, who is coming up for examination in March, and who has been teaching in the school before. 2184. I believe that up to the present the Girls' School has been maintained solely by the Board of Education ? —I think so. 2185. As far as you are aware they had no endowments during the last twelve months to assist them ?—As far as I am aware they had not. 2186. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do I understand that the Board of Education has recently made arrangements for pupils in the training class to go and practise as teachers in the primary schools ?— They have intimated their desire to do so. They have made arrangements, but those arrangements are not being executed. 2187. What is the distinction in regard to the work done as between the sixth form and the training class ?—They are doing exactly the work of the sixth form at present. The girl who is going up for examination happens to live in the house with me, and is doing extra work with me in the evening, with a view to her passing the examination. 2188. Can you tell us how the work of the first form compares with any part of the primary-school work that you could easily define ? —I think about the Second Standard. 2189. Is there any examination to pass in order to rise from the lower school to the upper ?— They are all examined, and they must satisfy me that they are capable of being promoted. 2190. But you do not design to make any broader distinction between the third and fourth forms than between any other consecutive forms ? —I do not. 2191. Dr. Wallis.] Do you find that females are as efficient teachers as males ? —No. 2192. Would that in your opinion justify the payment of smaller salaries to females than to males ? —To a certain extent it would. Of course lam assuming that the salaries paid to those ladies or gentlemen are given to them in proportion to their value to the institution. 2193. Then, if a gentlemam receives £300 a year and a lady £150 a year, you would say that the gentleman is twice as efficient as the lady as a teacher ? —He ought to be, in my opinion. 2194. Do you find that girls are as capable as boys of learning classics and Euclid and algebra ? — I think more so. 2195. More so in classics ?—Tes. 2196. In algebra and Euclid? —Not so much in those. 2197. Does their study of algebra, Euclid, and these initial branches in any way impair their health, so far as you are aware ? —Not to the slightest extent, as far as I am aware. 2198. Their health stands the strain of study as well as that of the boys, in your experience ? — Tes. The main difficulty is to prevent their enthusiasm making them overwork themselves ; but if they simply confine themselves to the work I give them they remain strong and healthy. 2199. It is your opinion, then, that girls are as capable of making progress in all departments of study as boys are ?—That is my opinion. 2200. Do you approve of the complete separation of the sexes in education ?—I think it better. 2201. If they are equally capable of making progress in study, on what ground would you separate the sexes ? — The morale is different. On the ground of the morale. Not because the one cannot do the same amount of work as the other—the girls can do as well, perhaps better; but I think as a general rule I would prefer to have the young people separate —especially with colonial girls and boys. I can scarcely answer the question very definitely on the spur of the moment; but I have a very strong conviction that, unless under very judicious management, it is wise to keep the two separate. 2202. Especially the higher classes? —Well, I should not so much condemn it in the lower classes or in the higher classes. In the middle classes, iv the case of girls whose ages would vary from eleven to sixteen, I should certainly keep the sexes separate. 2203. Do you think the morale can be best cultivated when the two are apart ? —Tes, I think so —until the boys and the girls arrive at years of discretion and are under very judicious management. 2204. Do you think males or females are the best and most successful teachers ? —I think that females are the best teachers of young girls, and that males are the best teachers of the older girls; and I should define the older girls to be those from fourteen or from thirteen upwards. 2205. Are you preparing any girls for matriculation?—l believe some of them intend to matriculate. 2206. What sources of revenue has the school ? —The fees. 2207. Do you not get any capitation allowance from the Education Board ?—I do not know of any. We must get funds of some sort, because our revenue is not equal to our expenditure ; but I am not aware of the particulars. 2208. Have you a treasurer—one who looks after the accounts of the school ?—I collect the fees and send them to the Board of Education.

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Feb. 18, 1879,

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2209. Dr. Hector.] How would you propose that these girls should matriculate if they succeed ? In connection with what institution would they matriculate ? —I presume iv connection with the Auckland Grammar School, as Miss Edger did. 2210. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou said that ladies were not as efficient teachers of the older girls as men: does that arise from their being incapable of becoming as efficient teachers, or from tho education and training they have received previously ?—I thiuk it arises to a large extent from the absence in the female of persistent powers of discipline. 2211. That deficiency is inherent in the female ? —Tes ; I think it is in most cases. 2212. But they are as capable of acquiring kuowledge as males? —I think so. 2213. But not as capable of enforcing discipline? —I do not think they are. 2214. Professor Cook.] Supposing you had an entrance examination to your school equal to the Third Standard, which consists of reading, spelling, writing, and arithmetic—the first four rules simple and compound, excluding long division of money — with a corresponding knowledge of geography and history, what effect would it have on the attendance ? If you applied such a test as that as an entrance examination, how many would it exclude ? —I think if it had beeu in force it would have excluded all those in the first and second forms. I have had seventy-seven new scholars this quarter, and I think you might say it would exclude about fifty-three or fifty-four. 2215. What effect would that have had on the efficiency of the remaining school? Would the absence of these fifty have so reduced the funds of the school that the upper part would have been rendered less efficient, or would the funds still at the disposal of the school have been sufficient to make the upper part of the school more efficient than it is? —If I had not had these children I should not have had the teachers in the lower school, and I should not have had the fees. I think we should have been very much in the same position as far as the revenue goes. I require the same teachers in the upper school that I have, because I have the same or nearly the same numbers in the upper school. 2210. Tou think that, on the whole, cutting off the fifty girls from the lower school might somewhat have impaired the efficiency^ of the upper school?—lt would certainly have impaired the efficiency of the school if these fifty had joined later, because then much would require to be undone. That is the only sense in which it would have impaired the efficiency of the school. Of course, I naturally look to the lower forms for my future school, and take more interest in them, if possible, than in the other divisions. 2217. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Regarding the work of the lower forms as preparatory for the higher ones, do you think that the school gains in efficiency by keeping this work of preparation in its own hands ?—Tes, very much so ; I hold a very strong opinion on that point. . 2218. Do you think that, if the preparation were made outside, the principal defect in it would be want of thoroughness up to the point required, or want of symmetry ?—Want of both. If I get the children from public schools I feel comfortable; but if I get them from private schools it is very hard uphill work. 2219. The Chairman.] Where do you get the bulk of your pupils from?— From private schools. 2220. Could you state roughly what proportion of your pupils come from the primary Governmeut schools ? —I could not say. I should say that I have about ninety or so from the primary schools. 2221. Do you know if it is the intention of the Board to give you further assistance by appointing a male teacher in lieu of some of the female teachers ?—I believe they would give me a male teacher if they could get a good one. 2222. Have you applied for such assistance ?—I bave written twice to the Board. 2223. Professor Cook.] Are the Board of Education scholarships tenable at the Girls' School?— They are to be so in future. 2224. What do you think of the limit of age prescribed by the Board of Education for the scholarships ? —I am not aware of the limit of age, and know very little about the scholarships. 2225. Dr. Hector.] Do you know the different standards in the primary schools? —Tes. 2226. At what period of their education would you be prepared to take scholars from the primary schools ?—The Third Standard. 2227. That is not the highest standard ? —No ; as low down as possible. 2228. Would you state your reasons ? —Their previous education suffers from want of symmetry and thoroughness, and in some cases it is half a year before you undo what has been done. lam speaking of those who come from private schools. 2229. I am talking of primary schools ?—I cannot say, because I have never noticed any of the girls from primary schools who joined the fourth form —they were generally young children capable of entering the third form, and I have been very favourably impressed with them. But the other girls who have joined me from the private schools have principally been girls between fourteen and eighteen years of age. I have had to put them in the fourth form, aud it has caused me a great deal of anxiety and trouble to get them on. 2230. If your school could compete for scholarships the same as primary schools, at what stage do you think you could do most good with them, and how could that best be effected—-by a limit of age", or by confining the competition for the scholarship to a certain standard of instruction ? —I should say a certain standard, and that Standard No. 3. 2231. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What is the average age of the girls in your fourth form ? —I should say about thirteen. 2232. Is that higher than it ought to be ? Do you expect to work to a better state of things in that respect ? —Certainly. I shall be perfectly satisfied if I get girls of thirteen and fourteen in the fourth form, girls of fifteen aud sixteen in the fifth form, and girls over that age working for the University scholarships, or wishing to matriculate in the sixth. 2233. Over what number of years on tho average do you think the course, as shown in the syllabus, should extend, from the first form to the sixth ? —For a fairly intelligent child, I should say about eight years. 2234. And your idea would be that it should be from about ten to eighteen?— From about nine to seventeen. 14-H. 1.

Mr. Neil Keath.

Feb. 18,1879.

H.—l.

2235. Tiie Chairman.] Have you any knowledge, as a professional teacher, of what is being done at present in England with regard to giving girls a thorough University education ? —I have. 2236. Would you state what you know on that subject —I mean a University education as distinct from a secondary education?—No University education is given at the ladies' colleges that I know of, with the exception of Girton College and Nuneham. 2237. What class of education is given at Girton College?— Very much the same as that given at the various colleges at Cambridge: there does not seem to be much difference. 2238. I believe, as a matter of fact, the examinations are conducted simultaneously, and by the same professors ?—I believe so. 2239. When you. took charge of the Girls' High School, had the pupils received any previous instruction in Latin ? —No ; none whatever. 2240. And what is the most advanced class now learning in Latin ? Are they still in the grammar ? —They are doing Ca?sar and Abbott's Latin Composition. 2241. What are they doing in mathematics ? —The advanced class did yesterday the third proposition of the Third Book of Euclid, and they use Todhunter's smaller Algebra. Both subjects occupy four hours a week. 2242. Were these branches taught previous to your taking charge of the school ?—No. 2243. What amount of fees did you receive last year ?—I could not say. 2244. Is the building you occupy a suitable one? —Far from it. 2245. Is it too small, or is it not in a proper position as regards the convenience of the pupils ? — It is in a very delightful situation, fairly central, and in a very healthy situation indeed ; but the roof of the main schoolroom, and of all the rooms, is very low—B feet, 7 J feet, and 9 feet. I have got seventyseven children in a room which ought not to contain more than forty-five. 2246. I think the Board are about to do something to give you better accommodation ?—They are going to build a school outside, 70 feet long by 20 feet, which will accommodate all my upper school. Then I shall have the brick building set apart for the younger children. 2247. Have you sufficient accommodation for boarders ?—I have had to convert my bedrooms into schoolrooms. I cannot take any more boarders than I have. 2248. Is there any system of inspection carried out in regard to the school by the Board of Education ? — The Inspector, Mr. O'Sullivau, went once with Mr. Habens ; and the school was examined by two gentlemen selected by the Board at the end of last quarter—Mr. Lusk and Mr. Eunciman. 2249. Did the examiners make a written report ?—I think they did. 2250. Were there any prizes awarded ? —Tes ; two prizes to each form, and three to the third form. 2251. Dr. Wallis.] Did the Education Board pay for the prizes ?—Tes. 2252. Are the examiners paid for examining the school ?— I do not know. Mr. Farquhar Macrae was further examined. 2253. The Chairman^] Has tho connection existing between your Grammar School and the University been a satisfactory connection up to the present time ? I mean, has it feuded to advance the class of education in your school in any way ? —Most certainly. 2254. I presume you allude to the scholarships acting as a stimulus to the higher class of education? —Partly to that fact, and partly to this other consideration: that the temptation which most young people feel in this colony to give up direct instruction early was counterbalanced in a number of instances by the encouragement offered to protracted study by the hope of getting a University degree. 2255. Have you any suggestion to make with regard to tho future as to the connection which should exist between the affiliated institutions and the University ?—I have always had one opinion on that matter —that there should have been no affiliated institutions at all. 2256. Do I understand that, whilst you disapprove of affiliation, you are in favour of the scholarships being continued to be held out to secondary schools? —Certainly. Or rather, put it in another way : I am in favour of scholarships being given to students who win them at examinations without reference to the place of their education. 2257. Do you think the mode of appointing the members of the Senate of the University and the Chancellor is a satisfactory mode ?—That is a question which, if I give an opinion at all, I should like to answer in writing. It appears to me that the important matter is not the mode of electing the members of the Senate, but the getting of proper men on the Senate. 2258. Tou are aware that a body called the Convocation is about to be called into existence when there are a sufficient number of graduates ? —I am. 2259. And I presume you are aware that under the present law it is proposed to exclude ad eundem graduates from that body ? —Under the present law I am aware that ad eundem graduates are not admitted members of the Convocation. 2260. Do you think that is a satisfactory arrangement ?—A perfectly satisfactory arrangement, I think. 2261. Tou approve of the preseut law, excluding ad eundem graduates ?—Tes. 2262. Do you know whether any inconvenience has arisen from the meetings of tho Senate of the University of New Zealand being held in different places from time to time? —-That is part of a very general question which I can hardly answer except in considerable detail. If you asked, Would it be better that the annual meetings of the University Senate should be held in one place rather than in many places ? I would answer at once, Tes, if such meetings suited the conformation of the country. To put it in another way: The Senate of the University of Melbourne naturally meets in Melbourne. 2263. Of course you are aware that the Melbourne University is a very different University from that existing in New Zealand. It is a teaching body with its staff of professors, and with lectures going pn in the University ? —Or more correctly, Mr. Chairman, it is a teaching body with a staff of professors,

Mr. Neil Heath.

Feb. 18, 1879.

Mr. F. Macrae.

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and also a jwwt-examining body. That is to say, it fulfils the functions of a teaching University, but has also taken to it the functions of an examining body, such as the University of London. 2264. Are you aware on what model the Melbourne University is formed?—-I am not acquainted with the history of the growth of the Melbourne University, but I thiuk I know the working of it during the last few years. It was established, I believe, as a teaching body. It developed, lam not prepared to say at what date, into what I would call a body. Tho University of Melbourne, as I am informed, examines students who do not attend lectures, but who, on passing certain examinations, receive their degree just as if they had been students attending lectures in the University. I call it at the same time a quasi-examining body, because, to my mind, the immense benefit which might be derived by admitting those to examinations who study anywhere is, to a very large extent, neutralized in the University of Melbourne by this unfortunate fact: that the professors of the University are the examiners not only of the students attending the University, but also of outsiders, and outsiders in this way are put to a considerable disadvantage as compared with students attending lectures. That is one reason why it appears to me that the number of studeuts who graduate and do not attend lectures in Melbourne is comparatively small. Another reason is this : that until lately, and, I presume, up to the preseut time, students not attending lectures had to pay fees just as if they did attend. The very fact of having so to do, I presume, must have been a serious objection to going up for examination on the part of poor private students. 2265. Do you think such a University as that existing in Melbourne would be better suited to the requirements of New Zealand than the existing University of New Zealand ?—I am of the same opinion as that which I expressed in 1867, and which is recorded in a letter to the Chairman of a Committee of the House of Eepresentatives which sat in that year —nameh r, that the one University suited to our circumstances is a purely examining body; and the added exjierience of these years has simply confirmed me in that opinion. 2266. In your opinion, is the present mode of matriculation a satisfactory method of examination ? —It appears to me that all the arrangements consequent on the affiliation of institutions to the University are unsatisfactory—that is to say, not simply the holding of matriculation examinations, but the aunual examinations of affiliated institutions. 2267. Professor Shand.] By whom do you think these examinations should be conducted for the University?— All examinations, from the first to the last, by the University. It is a fact that young men have been able to write themselves down matriculated students of the University of New Zealand who have completed one year, two years —who have completed three years in the University of New Zealand, and have never passed a New Zealand University examination, and probably never will pass one. 2268. The Chairman.] Do you think that the value of the University scholarships is sufficient at present ? —I think so. 2269. Do you think the present course proscribed for junior scholarships is sufficient or insufficient ?—Accepting the mere schedule, I do not think there is any great fault to find with the programme for junior scholarships ; but, in practice, everything would depend on the manner in which this programme was interpreted by the examiners. 2270. Professor Cook.] Did you say " accepting " tho schedule ?—I accept the programme as satisfactory ; but the character of the examination under this programme depends entirely, at least in anew University, on the examiners. 2271. Dr. Hector.] Would not that be the case with any programme?— The traditions of older Universities compel them to follow in a particular fashion. Even the Melbourne University is already to a considerable extent bound by its practice of twenty different years. 2272. Professor Shand.] Have the examinations as actually conducted under this programme been, in your opinion, satisfactory ?—The last examination papers I. have not yet had an opportunity of seeing. I would prefer, if the Commission wish it, to give in writing my opinion of the character of tho previous examinations. 2273. The Chairman.] How many of your pupils have obtained junior scholarships in the University of New Zealand ? —One. There have been two examinations, and one of our pupils has obtained a scholarship. 2274. Has that pupil proceeded to take a degree ? —She has completed her first year. 2275. Professor Cook.] Was she a pupil of the Grammar School at the time she took the scholarship ? Did she get; the scholarship from your school ?—-She did ; she was a pupil there. 2276. Professor Drown.] For hon r long ? —I should not like to say absolutely. Certainly for the year previous to going up for the scholarship. 2277. The Chairman.] Mr. Edger has told us that his daughter received all her education at home before going up for examination for the junior scholarship. Can you explain the discrepancy between his evidence and yours with regard to her attendance at the Auckland College and Grammar School? —I reply that either Mr. Edger or myself is committing a blunder unintentionally in the evidence given, and that! shall take the earliest opportunity of putting official information of the matter before you, which I shall furnish in writing. 2278. How many of your pupils have matriculated? —I believe sixteen. 2279. Professor Shand.] Were they all pupils of the College previous to matriculation?— All of them ;—I speak subject to correction. There may have been more than sixteen. There may have been outside students, whom I may have forgotten to enter, though Ido not think it probable. I may say that, of the sixteen, all except one have been at least one year with us. lam still subject to correction about the younger Miss Edger in saying so. 2280. Professor Brown.] How many students matriculated in 1878 ?—None. 2281. How many candidates for junior scholarships have you at present? —Five or six. 2282. And last year ?—I speak of the year 1878. 2283. But this present year, 1879? —Those who entered for December, 1878 —five or six, 2284. How many for December, 1877 ? —Probably one or two more —six or seven.

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2285. Dr. Wallis.] How many ot your pupils in all, since the beginning of the University, have become graduates of the University of New Zealand? —Three. Three have taken the degree of Bachelor of Arts, one under the old regulations aud two under the new regulations. 2286. Do you know what proportion this number bears to all who have graduated in tho University of New Zealand?—l speak with reference to tho examinations of 1877. For reasons which I hope the Committee of this Commission who are to inquire into the working of the College and Grammar School will learn, last year was quite an exceptional year with us. Practically, little University work was done. But, speaking up to that time, I think that, of all the College students—in whom lam most interested—of all students belonging to affiliated institutions, four have obtained the degree of B.A. in the University of New Zealand by passing examinations of the University of New Zealand, and, out of the four, three belonged to the Auckland College aud Grammar School. 2287. Do you mean to say that all the graduates of the University of New Zealand up to the end of 1877 amounted to four, and that three of them were produced by one institution ?—I speak of those who have come up from colleges. Three at the examination of 1877 —three private students, I believe— obtained the degree of B.A. ; and I speak here on the authority of the University Calendar. 2288. Professor Drown.] Cau you account for the paucity of graduates from the rest of the affiliated institutions ? —With all deference, I think that is a question which should be asked of the other institutions. 2289. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have the peculiar circumstances to which you referred as existing in 1878 interrupted intending graduates iv their career, as well as interfered with the work of your school?— Not only interrupted intending graduates in their career, but prevented me from encouraging young men to matriculate. 2290. But the question I want to get at is this : But for the disadvantageous circumstances to which you referred, what number of your students do you think would have graduated last year ? —■ One, lam certain, would have gone up for his degree and would have won it; and two others, I believe, would have gone up again for their compulsory section. 2291. Professor Droion.] Were they prepared for this work ? Were they prepared sufficiently at the end of the first year that with one year's study they would have gone up, the one for the final examination and two for the compulsory ?—The one—if we had been able to attend to our University students as we had attended to them in former years. I believe that the young man who in 1876 passed his first section for the B.A. degree would iv this last year have passed his second section for the B.A. degree. 2292. Professor Shand.] Eeferring to your answer to Dr. Wallis's question, I find by the Calendar that two Bachelors of Arts were admitted in 1876 —Peter Seton Hay and Alexander Watt Williamson; and that two were admitted in 1877—Kate Miliigan Edger and Saul Solomon. These were all that were admitted up to the end of 1877: which of them belonged to the Auckland College ? —The examination of 1877 was the last to which I referred. The actual admission of course did not take place until 1878. 2293. There were two Bachelors of Arts admitted in 1876, two in 1877, and in 1878 there were Fitchett, Hill, Newton, Eattray, and Tisdall. Tou said there were only four altogether : how do you explain that?—l will endeavour to be plain. I spoke of students belonging to tho colleges who obtained the degree of B.A. by passing the examination of tho University of New* Zealand. 2294. And you say that some of those I have mentioned did not do so ? —As far as I am aware, one did so in Otago, and three did so in Auckland. I am aware of no others. I speak of course subject to correction: so I read the University information at all events. 2295. The Chairman.] Do you wish to make any statement with regard to the reply you made to Dr. Wallis's last question, and the line of examination that has taken place since ?—I see no occasion at present to make any statement. I was simply desirous to answer the question of the Commission in the form in which it was put by Professor Shand. 2296. Dr. Hector.] As tho Calendar does not publish the information, would you name the graduates who have obtained their education at the Auckland College and Grammar School ? —Kate M. Edger, Eobert Henry Eattray, and William St. C. T. Tisdall. 2297. Professor Drown.] I think Dr. Kinder said, with regard to Mr. Tisdall, that during the last year of his course he studied at St. John's College, that he really took his degree from St. John's College, but that, by your advice, he did not change the name from the books of the one institution to the books of the other. Can you explain the discrepancy between that statement, and your statement that the three persons just mentioned were trained in the Auckland College and Grammar School ? — If it is not out of place to make a suggestion to tho Commission, I should ask that Mr. Tisdall be called to give evidence on this matter. Ido not wish to appear to differ in any way from the master of St. John's College. 2298. The Chairman.] I think you might inform the Commission whether you know as a fact that Mr. Tisdall received portion of his education at St. John's College? —If you will allow me, not wishing to enter into any matter of personal controversy with Dr. Kiuder, I would suggest that you call Mr. Tisdall for this one matter only, and I am certain his answer will be explicit. 2299. Professor Shand.] Did Mr. Tisdall attend the College and Grammar School in the last year of his undergraduateship ? —Under arrangements made by me, Mr. Tisdall came up regularly at certain intervals, which cau be ascertained by reference to my books. I have so many things to think of that I cannot tell you just now —but he came to us regularly at certain intervals, all during the year, in the three subjects in which he intended to go up for his degree. 2300. What were those three subjects? —Greek, French, and two branches of physical science. 2301. Professor Drown.] All the connection Mr. Tisdall had with the Grammar School, then, was by examination ? —He was constantly working under the supervision and direct instruction of the masters who had previously taught him and myself. 2302. Attending the College and Grammar School ?—Tes. 2303. Professor Cook.] And you think his attendance was such as would satisfy the requirements

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of the University on the subject of attendance at an affiliated institution ? The regulation is to this effect: "provided that, in the case of students who shall claim exemption from attendance upon lectures in an affiliated institution, it shall be shown to the satisfaction of the Chancellor of the University that circumstances preclude them from such attendance." Did Mr. Tisdall give such attendance at the Auckland College as in your opinion would satisfy the requirements of that regulation?—l would answer in this way : that Mr. Tisdall gave such attendance upon our masters as made me confident that he would pass his B.A. examination at the end of the year; that to the best of my recollection this particular clause of the University regulation was not in my mind; that lam not aware whether Mr. Tisdall got or did not get exemption from full attendance at lectures, under this clause, from the Chancellor. 2301. Ido not think you have quite answered my question. It is clear from that regulation that, although the University at present does not insist upon attendance at lectures, yet it regards nonattendance as an exceptional circumstance, in which special exemption is to be claimed, and given by tho Chancellor if he thinks it is necessary. Do you think Mr. Tisdall gave such attendance at the Auckland College and Grammar School as would bring him within the requirements of that Statute ? — Certainly such attendance as I believed would be found necessary to enable him to take the degree. 2305. The Chairman.] I think what wo require to know is, whether it was such attendance as would conform with this regulation ?—The amount of attendance given at the different affiliated institutions varies so much ; no definite amount of attendance has been prescribed by the University; and, as I have already repeated, I cannot recollect that this particular clause of Section 11. entered my mind. It is quite possible it was done, but I do not recollect. 2308. Professor Cook] Tou said Mr. Tisdall came up from time to time: what do you mean by that?—l shall be able to tell you exactly at what times he came up, and will furnish the information. 2307. The Chairman.] Is the course prescribed for the matriculation examination in your opinion a sufficient course?—lt depends entirely upon the manner in which it is interpreted by the affiliated institutions. 2308. By whom are these matriculation examinations conducted ?—The names of those who conduct them with us are given in the University Calendar —practically the masters for the time being in the upper school and myself. 2309. Is there any percentage of marks fixed for the answers ?—The percentage of marks is purely arbitrary. 2310. Do you think there should be a minimum age for the matriculation ? —I think that fifteen years should be the minimum. 2311. Professor Cook.] Would you prefer sixteen or seventeen ? —I certainly would not make tho minimum sixteen. 2312. Would you keep it at fifteen, as it is now ? —I would not raise it. lam not prepared to say it ought to be reduced. 2313. The Chairman.] What is your opinion of the present regulations and standard required for the B.A. degree ?—lt will be observed that in page 65 of the Calendar, where the list of subjects for the final examination is given at length, there is, in the first four sections—Greek language, Latin language, English language, and modern languages —no means of ascertaining anything like the amount of work iv the respective languages which is required to be done by students. 2314. Professor Cook.] Is it not stated at page 82 ?—That prescribes for tho current year. lam not so iutimate, for reasons already referred to, with the University work of last year. I speak of the examinations with which I became familiar. I say nothing of the last examination ; but, with regard to the previous ones, the amount of work required of candidates for degrees in the University of Now Zealand was far in excess of the amount of work required of candidates in any University of which I have been able to obtain information, except the University of London. I speak, of course, of the cases in which it is possible to compare the work of this University with the work of other Universities. 2315. Have you taken account of the fact that Greek is not compulsory here, while it is so in nearly every other University? —I am aware of the fact that Greek is not compulsory here, and lam aware of the fact that it is not compulsory in the University of Sydney, aud that there is a tendency to make it not compulsory in other Universities. I believe that it is practically not compulsory even in the University of Oxford: that is to say, there is a preliminary examination iv which a moderate amount of Greek is required. 2316. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the arrangements by way of standard and schedule for the B.A. degree are satisfactory in view of the circumstances of New Zealand?—l should take it for granted that there ought to be good reason indeed shown for making the degrees of the University of New Zealand —-the degrees in Arts —much more difficult of attainment than those of other Universities. 2317. Professor Sale.] Would you point out what part of the examination scheme for the B.A. degree you consider of unusual difficulty to a student ?—lt appears to me that the amount of difficulty in the attainment of a degree in the University of New Zealand is to be ascertained not by going to the general regulations in the Calendar, but by a careful study of the questions that have been actually set at previous examinations, and a comparison of those questions with questions set at examinations for degrees at other Universities. 2318. It is not in the scheme, then, but in the w-ay in which tho scheme has been carried out that you think the difficulty has arisen? —The general regulations laid down would be determined by the particulars under them. " Selected portions of the works of one prose and one verse author "iv one University, and portions which might be selected under this head in another, might be very different; the work in one case being perhaps three or four times greater than in the other. 2319. Do you think the selected portions of Greek or Latin verse hitherto prescribed have been excessive in quantity ? —I speak not of this year, but of former years with which I am familiar —I have not even seen the papers for this year : excessive—very much in excess of those iv other Universities. 2320. Professor Cook.] In giving that answer do you take account of the fact that there is only

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. one University examination in Latin here, whereas at Oxford a man would have two, or, if he chose classics, he would have three examinations ? Do you say that the amount of Latin exacted here is more than would be exacted during the entire course at Oxford and Cambridge ? —lt is more than passmen are ever examined in at Oxford and Cambridge. 2321. Eight through their whole course ? —Holding an examination all at once is quite another matter from spreading it over a period of years. 2322. I would like an answer to this question i Do you think that the whole amount of Latin exacted from an undergraduate for his degree in the University of New Zealand is more than the whole amount of Latin exacted from an undergraduate at Oxford or Cambridge during the whole of his course? —I am not in a position to answer that question : that is to say, Ido not know the amount of Latin which is required of students at Oxford and Cambridge during their whole course, nor do I know the amount of Latin wise teachers would require of the students of the University of New Zealand in their whole course. 2323. The amount required by the University in each case ?—I am not aware of the amount required by the University of Cambridge--2324. Do you think that the difficulty of the Latin here is inordinately great owing to the fact of its being exacted all at once ?—That adds to the difficulty. But if the standard of other Universities be accepted there is a difficulty in the mere quantity. 2325. Professor Sale.] Is it in the undue amount of prescribed work of selected portions of authors that the excessive difficulty of the examinations consists, in your opinion ?—That is a portion of it. The character of the questions set for the ordinary degree, and the length of the examination, are other elements of difficulty as compared with other Universities. 2326. Professor Cook.] With regard to the amount of mathematics required, are you aware whether it is more or less than is usually required ?—I would answer generally, in the first place, that I have not had occasion to consult for nearly eighteen mouths the calendars of other Universities, and therefore I should as much as possible be unwilling to answer questions as to the amount of work in other Universities without going to my authorities again. 2327. But you made a particular statement just now that, on comparing the work with that of other Universities, you found it was more difficult? —I almost think this would serve your purpose: Take the examinations of the University for the degree of Arts, with which I am acquainted : I have found these examinations, in the subjects in which they can be compared with those of other Universities, much more difficult. Now it appears to me that the value of that answer can be tested simply by a comparison. I give the answer from a careful comparison made by myself and a number of others. 2328. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you thiuk that a University which is simply an examining body ought to be more exacting in its examinations than a University which is responsible also for the training and general culture of the students? I mean by an examining body such a body as we have here in New Zealand, or as the University of London is. In your opinion, has a University like that a right to be more exacting in its examinations just because it has not the opportunity of knowing what its students are doing, and has not the oversight of their general culture ?—Every University, it appears to me, has a right to fix its own standard for examinations, subject to the Queen's Charter. It cannot fix the standard below that indicated in the charter. A University which is only an examining body might profitably establish a somewhat higher standard of examination than ordinary teaching LTniversitics ; but this would not justify the extreme severity of the New Zealand University examinations, as they existed formerly. 2329. Professor Brown.] What is the particular force of your saying "as they existed formerly " ? —Because I have not seen them for the last year. 2330. Tou referred to the new regulations ? —Tes, —to those of 1876 and part of 1877, with which I am familiar. 2331. The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion as to the propriety of the New Zealand University appointing its examiners outside of the colony rather than from persons resident in the colony ? —After the experience of two years ago it appears to me that there was nothing for it but that tho Senate should go outside the colony for examiners. 2332. Have students been allowed to keep terms by merely passing annual examinations in the Auckland College ? —I speak subject to a reference to documents. Three students, I think, passed the annual examination with us who were not regularly attending the College. 2333. What is your opinion of such a practice ?—I am so anxious to see young men encouraged to pursue a higher education, that I should offer every facility for their obtaining a recognition of knowledge acquired, without reference to the place of instruction. 2334. Professor Drown.] Did the students you referred to obtain the necessary psrmission from the Chancellor to remain away from the lectures ?—On this matter I have to answer as before. lam not prepared to say that I have not, in the multitude of things to attend to, omitted to do this, which was simply of course a formal matter. 2335. Dr. Wallis.] Is the Auckland College and Grammar School the only institution affording higher education in Auckland ? —The Auckland College and Grammar School is the only publicly established institution for secondary and higher education north of Wellington. 2336. Is provision for higher education in the North Island anything like adequate?—lt is to my mind utterly inadequate; and I anticipate that the main benefit from what I hope will be the minute inquiry into the working of the College and Grammar School by the Commission will be the pronouncing of the provision made here in Auckland as utterly inadequate. 2337. To what extent is your school at present subject to inspection and examination ?—lt is nominally open to inspection by any one who chooses to enter it while at work. It has been examined almost every year since I joined it, by examiners appoiuted by the Board. 2338. What would be tho best method of examiniug your institution, say annually, at certain times ? —The only inspection and examination of a public educational institution which, in my opinion, is of any value is an examination by experts. If Dr. Wallis means what inspection and examination

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of the Auckland College and Grammar School by a Committee of this Commission would be of value, then I should say that examination, and that only, which would enable the Committee to report to the Commission on the actual work done during the several years in which it has been in existence as an affiliated institution, to know the numbers who attended it, the standard of knowledge of those who entered it, the length of time they were under instruction, the work which was actually done, the means of testing that work, and the results of it. In other w rords, to know the work of the Auckland College and Grammar School the Committee would have to make an inquiry, not such as could be done by walking down into the buildings now and seeing them as they are at present, but such an inquiry as would satisfy them as to what work had actually been done during the several years that the institution has been working as an affiliated college. 2339. Professor Shand.] How could a Committee obtain such information ?—A very large amount of material for such examination is ready at hand in my possession—such material as would enable any competent person to form an approximately accurate conception of the work which has been done in the institution. 2340. What sort of material? —The examination papers, and the examination working of past years: that is, ordinary examination papers, which were never intended for public inspection—the examinations, for example, which I, as headmaster, felt bound regularly to make of the several classes in the school which are capable of being examined on paper. These papers, aud the results of them, have been kept for some considerable time. Mr. Vincent E. Eice was sworn and examined. 2341. The Chairman.] Tou are at present Secretary to the Auckland Board of Education? —Tes. 2342. How long have you held that office ? —Two years. 2343. Previous to that you were a public servant under the Provincial Government for a considerable number of years ? —Tes ; ten years. 2344. The Commission would like to ascertain from you, as Secretary to the Board of Education, what you know about tho establishment of the Girls' High School. When was it established?— The school was established by the old Auckland Education Board under the authority of a Provincial Act passed in 1874. It was not until the end of 1876, however, that everything was arranged, and the school organized, and it opened in 1877. It continued until the passing of the Education Act in 1877. That Act left the school, as I understand, nowhere —made no provision for it —and therefore in 1878 the Auckland Girls' High School Act was passed by the Assembly, and the school now continues under the authority of that Act. 2345. When was the school established in the Wesley College, Upper Queen Street ? —ln January, 1877. 2346. And it has now been two years in existence ?—Tes. 2347. And the establishment of the school there was under a Provincial Act ? —Tes, under the 23rd clause of "The Auckland Provincial Education Act, 1874," which says, "It shall be lawful for the Board to establish aud maintain in any populous part of the province a school for the higher education of girls, under a lady-principal, and such number of duly-qualified masters, governesses, and assistants as the Board may consider necessary, and the said High School for girls shall be entirely under the superintendence and control of the Board, and shall be maintained and supported, and all salaries and expenses connected therewith paid, out of school fees as fixed from time to time by the Board, from voluntary contributions, and from any funds voted for that specific purpose by the Provincial Council." 2348. Then under the authority of that Act the Education Board rent the present premises in Upper Queen Street? —Yes; and it was under the authority of that Act that negotiations were made. Of course, before the school was actually opened, the Abolition Act came into force. 2349. Was there, as far as you know, a want felt for a higher —I mean a secondary —class of education for girls in Auckland and its neighbourhood ?—A very great want had been expressed for many years previously. 2350. Do you think the present establishment has, within reasonable limits, supplied the want that was felt ?—I think so. 2351. How is the school maintained at present? —By fees, and out of the ordinary revenue of the Board. 2352. What contribution out of the ordinary funds devoted to education in the Education District of Auckland does the Board make to the Girls' School? Does it treat it as a primary school in regard to granting it capitation allowance?— The Government have hitherto paid the capitation allowance of £3 15s. 2353. For all pupils ? —On the average attendance. 2354. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Has it been represented to the Government that the attendance there, for which the capitation allowance is claimed by the Board, is not attendance at a public school within the meaning of " The Education Act, 1877" ?—I am not sure. I believe something of the kind was represented recently during Mr. O'Sullivan's visit. I may state that the Board were under a misapprehension about the school. They thought it was what is called a high school under the Education Act, but the Central Department explained that that was not the case, and steps were then taken to get the Act of last session passed. 2355. Professor Cook.] Does the Act of last session alter the position of the school or the Government in any way ?—-The only way in which it would alter the position of the school appears to be by deciding that it is not entitled to any capitation allowance under the Act of 1877. That affects the school very much. 2356. Professor Shand.] Did the Board get any authority under the Act of 1878 to expend its ordinary revenue in maintaining the school ? —No such authority has been specially given to the Board.

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2357. Has the contribution of the Board towards the expenses of the school been greater or less than the sum they received from the Government as capitation allowance ?—During the two years it has been greater. 2358. Do you say that the Board have expended more money than they have received from the Government ?—I ought perhaps to explain that during the year 1877 the Board received from the Government whatever it asked for—whatever it estimated it would require. That was before the present Education Act came into force. The total receipts for the year 1878 amounted to £1,314 55., and in 1877 £501 os. was received for fees. 2359. What was expended out of tho education grant that year?— The whole expenditure of the school during 1877 was £1,229 7s. 4d. In 1878 the fees were £791 10s., and the expenditure £1,767 3s. 4d. Then for 1878 I calculated the capitation allowance at £522 155., which, of course, should, be added to the fees as really being paid in respect of the school. The actual amount which the Board has expended during the two years in excess of capitation allowance and fees has been £1,181 Os. Bd. 2360. The Chairman.] According to what you state I understand that the school could not be supported by fees alone ? —No. 2361. I presume you have read the Act of last session. What assistance in a pecuniary way do you receive under that Act ?—The endowments have not yet been made available. The Act of last session gives an endowment of £5,000 worth of land. I believe the Waste Lands Board have had the matter under their consideration, but they have done nothing definite yet. 2362. Is that endowment to come out of general country land, irrespective of any endowments for educational purposes? —No; it is to be taken out of the reserves for education. 2363. But have not these reserves for educational purposes been already allotted to primary and secondary education under the Act of 1877 ? —All the reserves that were gazetted up to the end of 1877 have been so dealt with, but now 5 per cent, of all lands are reserved before the lands are dealt with for education ; so that there is a supply of reserves continually accruing. 2364. And it is from that source that you expect this £5,000 worth of land is to come ?—Tes, I believe so. 2365. Have you any idea whether that source would at present yield the £5,000 worth of land dedicated to the Girls' High School?—I should imagine not. 2366. As a matter of opinion, when do you expect to see something provided under the Act of last session for assisting the Girls' High School?—I should think within six months' time. Within that time I think the endowments could be put into the hands of the Board, so that they might let them, as they have power to do for twenty-one years. Of course this answer and the one I gave previously are only matters of opinion. 2367. Is it part of your official duty to visit the school in any way ?—No. 2368. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know whether any one has the authority of the Board to visit the school for the purpose of inspection ?—The school is under the inspection of the Public School Inspector. 2369. How long has that been so ?—For nearly twelve months, I think. 2370. The Chairman.] But, of course, Mr. O'Sullivan had no authority to go and inspect under the Act until a few months ago ? —No, not until the Act was passed. I believe, however, that " The Education Act, 1877," contains a clause empowering the Inspector to act. 2371. Professor Cook.] Do you know how much money is available for secondary education, as held by the School Commissioners ? —I believe that at the end of December a sum not exceeding £200 was available. 2372. Will that be £200 a year?—lt will be more for the year, but I cannot say how much without reference to the books. 2373. Would not the Girls' School be entitled to a share of that ?—Tes. 2374. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Can you form any opinion as to the probable annual income from the reserves which by the Auckland Girls' High School are to be set apart ?—lt would be impossible until it was known wdiere the reserves are. 2375. But there should be some relation between £5,000 value in money of land, and the income in the shape of rental. Are you at all in a position to form an opinion as to what might be returned in Auckland from such a source ? —No, lam not; but it would be very little, judging from experience of these lands. Lands which are said to be valued at £1 or £2 an acre are frequently of no present value, and cannot be utilized. The Board, in dealing with reserves, had in some cases to let them for fourteen years without any rental, on condition that the tenant would improve the land; and that occurred after public competition. 2376. Do you think that you could depend on an income of £100 a year from such a source as that ? —I should think so. 2377. Professor Shand.] Supposing the capitation allowance were withdrawn, which I suppose would be the case if the school had any endowments, what amount of revenue from endowments alone, in addition to the fees, would be required to keep the school going efficiently ? —There has been a large increase in the number of scholars, and I fancy the fees this ye_r would be about £1,300. The expenditure last year was £1,757 ; I do not think this year it will he less than £2,000. 2378. Then you think you want £600 or £700 as permanent revenue ? —I am sure that would be required this year. 2379. And probably in the future ?—lt is impossible to say, because the accommodation is so limited that if the numbers increase there is no place to put the scholars. 2380. If the fees were raised, could you not do with a smaller permanent revenue ?—lf the fees were raised a revenue of something like £1,500 might be relied upon. 2381. Professor Cook.] Tou are aware that the fees charged here are decidedly less than those charged elsewhere ? —Tes, I am aware of that. 2382. If the fees were raised to an average, say, of £10 a year, and you had two hundred girls, that would give £2,ooo—would that be a judicious or injudicious step ?—I think that would be too large an increase at present.

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2383. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What do you think would be the immediate effect of imposing fees at that rate ?—I think that certainly more than thirty scholars would be withdrawn. 2384. Professor Cook.] But would the school be rendered self-supporting at the same time ? —I hardly think it would. 2385. The withdrawal of thirty scholars would leave 170 remaining, wdio, at an average of £10, would return an income of £1,700, which is about the amount you want this year ? —I should explain that in the expenditure for 1878 there is only the headmaster's salary for a portion of the year, the ladyprincipal's salary at half the amount being charged for the other portion. That, of course, makes a difference. 2386. Bey. W. J. Habens.] It has been stated to the Commission that the Board intends to make an addition to the building. Can you state what is the estimated cost of that addition ? —£3oo. 2387. And from what source does the Board propose to defray that cost ? —I am not aware of any special fund applicable to the purpose. 2388. The Chairman.] Have tenders been invited for supplying the extra accommodation?—Tes; but no tender has been accepted yet. 2389. Bey. W. J. Habens.] For how many pupils is it proposed to make accommodation in this additional building?—l do not recollect. 2390. It was stated in evidence this morning that the proposed building is to be 70 feet by 20 feet: does that agree with your recollection ? —Tes. 2391. And the cost you say will be about £300 ? —That is the estimate. 2392. Can you say how this estimate for a building of that size compares with the Board's outlay on other buildings of similar dimensions, say, for primary-school purposes ? —lt is about half the usual cost. 2393. The Chairman.] Is the same architect being employed for this addition to the Girls' School who is usually employed for the primary-school buildings? —The same architect who is employed for the city primary schools designed this temporary building. 2394. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In what way do you account for the disproportionately low cost of this building as estimated ? —I believe there is to be no lining, and I think there are no fireplaces. Then, of course, it is only an estimate. 2395. The Chairman.] As Secretary to the Board of Education, could you inform the Commission whether any attempt was made to establish evening classes in connection with tho Auckland Grammar School ?—Not within my experience. I believe an attempt was made some five or more years ago, but that was before my connection with the Board. 2396. But up to about twelve months ago you were aware of course that the Grammar School was under the Board of Education just as the primary schools are ?—Tes. 2397. And you were Secretary to the Board for twelve months at least during that time ?—Y res. 2398. And during that time you are not aware of any attempt having been made to establish evening classes in connection with tho school?— No. 2399. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it advisable to endeavour to make use of University examinations for tho purpose of distinguishing between teachers of different degrees of usefulness in primary schools ?—I think so. 2400. Dr. Wallis.] Have you had any practical experience in education yourself? —Not to any considerable extent. 2401. The Chairman.] While you were Secretary to the Board of Education when it had the management of the Grammar School, had you any personal knowledge of the style of education administered in the school ? —No ; it was no part of my official duties to visit the school. 2402. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you given any consideration to the question of the desirability of establishing some college for higher education in Auckland —above grammar-school education ? —No, I cannot say that I have given tho matter any great consideration. Mr. T. M. Phiiso-T, M.D., was sworn and examined. 2403. The Chairman.] You have been a long time engaged in this portion of the colony in the practice of medicine ? —Tes. 2404. Tou have held the office of Provincial Surgeon for how many years? —Nearly twenty. 2405. There has been an idea afloat for some lime that a medical school or schools might be established in the colony, and the Commission would like to know whether you have given the matter any thought, or arrived at any opinion on the subject ? —The question has arisen so suddenly that I have not given much attention to it. 2406. Do you think a medical school could be established in Auckland iv connection with the hospital ? —Tes. 2407. I mean one that would give full education in the general medical system?— The best medical schools are always in connection with hospitals. The hospital would be as it were the nucleus or centre ; but in addition to that there would have to be teachers in the various branches—the hospital alone would not be sufficient. 2408. I mean as regards having subjects for anatomy?— The hospital would answer for anatomy, I should think. 2409. Professor Drown.] Would there be a sufficient supply of patients and of subjects?— Last year there were ICO deaths, say two a week. A groat many, of course, would be claimed by their friends. Still, there is a considerable surplus that nobody is interested in. 2410. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] There would be no difficulty in procuring subjects?—l do not think there would. 2411. Professor Cook.] Is there a sufficient number of patients in the hospital to enable a student to acquire his clinical education there ?—I think so. Our average number throughout the year is between eighty and ninety, all the beds being filled. 15— H. 1.

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2412. Professor Shand.] Can you tell us how many lectureships would require fo be established to give efficient medical instruction ?—You would require anatomy, surgery, materia medica, chemistry, the practice of medicine, midwifery, &c. 2413. Would you require pathology ? —I fancy that would be comprehended in the practice of medicine. 2414. Dr. Wallis.] Is not the supply of medical practitioners quite sufficient for the wants of the province ? —I think so ; scarcely in the country districts, perhaps. There is a great lack of medical men in the outlying districts. The towns are well supplied, but the outlying districts are sadly deficient. 2415. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Could the different Chairs you mentioned be combined ?—Frequently they are. 2416. Professor Cook.] But does not the general course of medical education in England require that there should be a definite number of teachers or lecturers —some ten, I think —before they will recognize a school ? —That may perhaps be so in England; but such a school would be a very extensive one. 2417. Then you think it would be desirable to establish a school here on such a basis that its qualification would be such a one as the general course of medical education in England would recognize? —I think you could scarcely found a medical school on a hospital of eighty beds. It would be a very paltry affair, compared with the Home schools. 2417 a. I thought I understood you just now to say that eighty beds would afford ample opportunity for a student to acquire his clinical education ?—As in the provincial towns in England, you might have a system of education, but not to the full extent. More is required than clinical instruction. 2418. Then I suppose you think it would not be possible to establish in Auckland, in connection with the hospital, a medical school that would give a full course ? —I doubt it. I think as far as anatomy and surgery go you might. ' 2419. Professor Shand.] Do you contemplate that the teachers in anatomy, surgery, and the other branches should be general practitioners, or that they should devote their whole time to the instruction of the students? —I think they might be general practitioners. 2420. Would not general practice interfere with the time at their disposal? —No ; all the professors in the Colleges at Home have private practice. 2421. The Chairman.] As far as you know, has there been any demand on the part of young men in this portion of the colony to get an opportunity of studying the medical profession ? —Tes; several young men have expressed to me a wish that they could get instruction here in anatomy and surgery. 2422. Do you know whether any young persons have been obliged to go Home in order to get a medical education ?—Tes, several. 2423. Professor Shand.] Would it be sufficient, in the meantime, if one complete medical school wero established at any centre in the colony ;or would you like to see several ?—I think perhaps one for each Island would be sufficient. 2424. And supposing there wero not funds enough to provide two fully-equipped schools, would one be useful in either the one Island or the other ? —I think it would certainly be better than having to send students Home. 2425. Professor Cook.] But, if you could not give them a complete medical course, how would you propose to supplement tho instruction they would receive here ? They would have to go Home for the more practical part of their profession ? —I think that they might learn, within the bounds of the colony, almost everything that requires to be learnt for colonial practice. 2426. Dr. Wallis.] Tou see as great a variety of diseases at ibis hospital as medical men see in hospitals perhaps five times as large ?—Tes ; we get patients from all parts of tho province. 2427. Is there any medical association in Auckland for professional purposes ? —No ; there have been several attempts to form such an association, but they have all collapsed. 2428. Professor Shand.] If you had very ample means of instruction in the way of professors and lecturers, would that mitigate to some extent tho difficulty of not having a sufficiently extensive hospital? —If funds were available, and persons could be'engaged for these various branches, a medical school might be established; but I should imagine it would be a very expensive thing, i.e., on the Home model. 2429. Could you give us any idea of the cost of an efficient medical school for New Zealand ? — No, I could not. 2430. Would it cost as much as £5,000 a year ? —I cannot say. 2431. The Chairman.] Do you know anything about the attempt that is being made to establish a medical school in Dunedin ?—I have heard of it, but have no precise knowledge of the matter. 2432. Dr. Wallis.] Might not medical practitioners here take students and educate them in the the profession to a certain extent, after which they might go Home for a short time ? Would that tend to promote the interests of the medical profession in this country? —I think sb. 2433. It has never been done here, I think ?—No ; there has never been any attempt so far as I know to study anatomy or surgery in Auckland. 2434. In reference to higher education, do you not think that Auckland should be treated just as well as the other parts of New Zealand, and that we ought to have a college here, with a staff of professors, as is the case in Christchurch and Dunedin ? —Tes. 2135. It would be advantageous to Auckland to have a college similar to those in Christchurch and Dunedin, separate from the Grammar School ?—Yes. 2430. I am speaking of a school of arts, and regular education in that department ?—Yes. 2437. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] At present the supply of medical men for the colony comes from Home ?—Altogether from Home. 2438. Is the supply at all equal to the demand ? —I do not think it is—not in the country districts at least.

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2439. If a medical scho >l were established in some place in New Zealand, would not the studen' > looking forward to the employment they would get throughout the colony, be able to afford considerable revenue in the way of fees ?—I do not know about that. But I always thought it a great pity that, while lawyers can be manufactured here wholesale, we cannot turn out a doctor. 2410. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What proportion of the complete course of medical study do yon think could be accomplished here?—l should think that, as matters stand now, anatomy, surgery, the practice of medicine, and pathology, could be very well taught. 2141. Do you think it would be necessary to supplement that by further study iv one of the older countries ?—No ; I think that pharmacy, botany, and midwifery might all be learnt here, if there wero a botanic garden and a lying-in hospital. 2442. And you think we might be able to rear in the colony a supply of medical men for ourselves ? —I really think there is nothing impracticable in it. 2443. Professor Cook.] Tou are aware, perhaps, that at Christchurch and Dunedin there are collegiate institutions, in a moderate way, with a Faculty of Arts, in each caso tolerably well equipped : do you think it would be a good thing if a similar institution could be established in Auckland?— Certainly. 2441. Can you tell us, from your general knowledge of the place, what number of students might reasonably be looked for in the course of three, four, or five years ? —I could not give a definite answer to that question. 2415. Dr. Wallis.] Tou could suppose that Auckland, with its large population, would be able to supply twenty young men who would matriculate at the University with the intention of devoting three years to the course ? —Tes ; I think there ought to be that number.

Mr.T.M.Phihon,

Feb. 18,1879.

Friday, 21st February, 1879. Present : Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Dr. Wallis. Mr. W. St.C. T. Tisdall, 8.A., was sworn and examined. 2446. The Chairman.] You are a graduate of tho University of New Zealand ? —I am. 2417. Would you inform the Commission where you received your University education ? —The principal part, I might almost say the whole, was received at the Auckland College. 2448. What portion of your University education did you not receive there ?—I think I shall have to answer that question a little fully. I passed tho examination for the University in two sections, compulsory and optional. Taking two subjects in the compulsory portion, Latin and mathematics, I passed them before I left the Auckland College. In the optional section, consisting of three subjects, of which I took Greek, French, and physical science, I depended altogether upon help received at the Auckland College for two of the three, namely, French and physical science. In the third I had four Greek plays and four books of Greek prose to prepare, and in that subject I received help—very little help—in one book of prose and three plays, from Dr. Kinder; but the amount of help I received from him was not sufficient to carry mo through in that subject. 2449. Would you inform the Commission what attendance you gave at the Auckland College and Grammar School during tho last year? —I could not say exactly how many times I either saw the masters or wrote to them ; but during the last four months of the year I attended or wrote twenty-seven times, and not less in proportion during the other months of the year. 2450. What do you mean by saying you wrote ?—When I had not time to come in from St. Johu's College, I wrote to some of the masters and asked their advice or help, or got examination papers from them. 2451. Do I understand that you were residing at St. John's College during this period? —I was, except of course during vacation. 2452. Asa student of the College ? —Yes. 2453. Dr. Wallis.] What were the four books of Greek prose ? —The first four books of Herodotus. 2454. Professor Cook.] Under whose direction did you prepare yourself for Latin and Greek prose? That would form part of the examination, I think?—ln Greek prose I was helped by Dr. Kinder, and also by Mr. Anderson, classical master at the Grammar School, who set me some papers in it. 2455. Did you not get any help from Dr. Kinder in French? —Not the least in the world, except that Dr. Kinder lent me some books in French, which were of use to me. 2456. Although you were a resident student at St. John's College, the only instruction you received from Dr. Kinder was a partial preparation in Greek ? —I received, of course, instruction in other subjects, for instance in Latin, but not for the B.A. degree, having passed in Latin before going to St. John's College ; and I received help in theology. But for tho B.A. degree the only subject in which I received any assistance from Dr. Kinder was Greek, and that very slight. 2457. The Chairman.] Did you hold an exhibition at St. John's ? —Yes ; I held a scholarship of £60 a year. 2458. Where was that acquired ? —The governors have several scholarships in their gift—and they gave me one—theological scholarships. 2459. How many years did it last ? —I held it for one year and two quarters. 2460. Was it granted to you while you were a student at the College and Grammar School? —■ Tes ; they gave it me at the vacation at the end of 1876.

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2161. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Had you to pass any examination? —No ; the scholarships are purely in the gift of the governors, especially for the benefit of those who wish to become theological students. 2462. The Chairman.] And holding that scholarship, were you required to be resident at St. John's ? —Tes, it was necessary ; in fact, the scholarship is simply residence and tuition at St. John's, nominally valued at £60 a year. 2463. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What was the last annual college examination you passed at Auckland College?—At the cud of 1877, before going up for my final examination for the B.A. degree. 2464. Professor Sale.] In the classical subjects in which you were examined for your degree, did you find the amount of book-work excessive ?—Well, I did not find it excessive for myself, but I thought it was rather too much. I could do it, and did succeed in doing it. 2465. I mean in comparison with the rest of the work ? Did you find that the proportion of the selected portions of authors engrossed an undue portion of your time? —I think it did. 2466. Have you looked at any of the papers that have been set since that time ? —I could not accurately state what the work for this and succeeding years is to be ; but I think that for the coming year the work is not so hard, although perhaps of the same quantity as previously. What I mean is that they have appointed four books of the Iliad, instead of four plays of Sophocles. 2467. Would it, in your opinion, be an improvement iv the examination if the quantity of selected portions of authors were reduced ?—I think it certainly would. 2468. And do you think that would have the effect of giving more importance to the general study of the language ? —I think it would ; students would be able to devote themselves more to the study of antiquities, ancient history, philology, and kindred subjects. The Eer. S. Edger was re-examined. 2469. The Chairman.] Tou recollect telling us on the last day you were hero that your second daughter received her education wholly at home ? —Tes. 2470. Do you recollect the University Calendar being shown to you, in which she was set down as haying come from the Auckland College and Grammar School ?—Tes. 2471. And do you recollect the remark you made ?—Tes. 2472. It was to what effect ?—That it was incorrect. Moreover, I might have added that, although I never felt inclined to notice the mistake myself, my eldest daughter at Christchurch pointed it out to Mr. Maskell, the Eegistrar, and he promised that it should be altered in the next Calendar. 2473. If there is anything you would wish to say in reference to this matter, of course the Commission would hear you.—l should like to say a few words, because it has become a public question as to whether my daughter Lilian was really educated privately or through the Grammar School, and of course Mr Macrae is interested in it. Now, Mr. Macrae has made a mistake in allowing her name to appear in the Calendar as a student of the Grammar School, but it came about very naturally, and without the slightest suspicion of there being any mistake. The fact is, both of the masters of the Grammar School had for some time taken a very great interest iv my daughter's education. Lilian passed two examinations before there was any thought of her competing for University honours. She passed the district examination under the Provincial Board in 1874. 2474. Bey. W. J. Habens.] For a scholarship ?—No ; simply for a certificate of proficiency. She passed also the open scholarship examination in 1876, very considerably ahead of all the boys in the province. Being a girl, she did not obtain the scholarship. It was that which led us and Mr. Macrae to think she might as well follow in the steps of her sister; and from that date —Christmas, 1876— she was in frequent communication with Mr. Macrae, acting under his advice. He forwarded her name to the Chancellor as a candidate for the junior scholarship, and "it is from that he got the impression that she was really a scholar connected with the Auckland College and Grammar School— lam sure without the slightest intention of making any mistake in the matter. On the other hand, I stated it rather too absolutely when I said that she received no help at all extraneous from home. For eighteen months previous to her eldest sister Kate going to Christchurch, she had conducted her mathematical and classical education, the rest being conducted by a lady who has been with us for a great many years, and myself. When Kate went to Christchurch we felt it desirable, if possible, to get a little extra help, and we obtained the consent of Mr. Anderson for her to prepare Latin composition exercises for the space of about three months. This fact had entirely escaped my memory when I was here before ; I only found it out yesterday from questioning Lilian very precisely as to the different circumstances of her education. With that exception, and the fact that we obtained examination papers from all quarters where we could obtain them, amongst which were about half a dozen papers which Mr. Macrae gave to his boys, and which she answered at home, that is the whole of the extraneous help she received. 2475. 1 understand that, as a matter of fact, she was never on the roll of pupils attending the Auckland College and Grammar School ? —No. 2476. The services which Mr. Anderson rendered with regard to Latin prose composition, did he give as a private friend ? —Tes. 2477. And with regard to the examination papers from the Auckland College Grammar School which your daughter worked at, were these corrected by the authorities at the Auckland College Grammar School, or simply used by you as a test of her proficiency ? —Sometimes Mr. Macrae corrected them, sometimes he did not, —sometimes he was too busy ; but he was acting as a private friend. Mr. Farquhar Macrae was further examined. 2478. The Chairman. J Do you think the mode of appointing the members of the Senate and the Chancellor of the University of New Zealand is a satisfactory mode? —1. Holding the opinion that the essential qualification to be looked for in members of the governing body of the University is

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proved zeal for the interests of higher education, and that all parts of the colony should be fairly represented on the Senate, I do not regard as satisfactory a mode of appointment which has resulted iv a small attendance at the annual meetings, the frequent recurrence of vacancies from failure to attend for two consecutive sessions, and the inadequate representation of the North. 2. I am of opinion that the Chancellor should, as at present, be eletecd by the Senate. 2479. Have the examinations, as actually conducted under the programme for junior scholarships, been in your opinion satisfactory?—l am of opinion that, if the matriculation examination wore conducted only by the University, and in, say, five or six compulsory subjects, and the junior scholarships were awarded to the best candidates who passed that examination with honours, the effect on secondary education would be much more satisfactory than that of the present system, and the cost of the scholarship examinations would be greatly reduced. 2480. What do you mean by saying that Mr. Tisdall came up "from time to time"?—Mr. Tisdall, I believe, has answered that question for me. After comparing notes with Mr. Tisdall on tiie matter, I am certain that during the last year of his undergraduate course he must have been in communication with our staff over sixty times. 2481. Do you mean communication by letter?— Much more frequently oral communication. 2482. Is that your complete answer ?—The substance of the answer is, sixty times during the year. 2483. Is that the ordinary course pursued by persons attending their terms in the College and Grammar School ?—No. 2484. How long was Miss M. F. L. Edger at the Auckland College and Grammar School before she was examined for a junior scholarship?—l inadvertently committed an error in my previous evidence on this matter. I said that Miss Edger had been with us, I thought, a year. I was reminded ten minutes after I left this room by the other masters that she had come up to us simply for papers in Latin and mathematics the year before her examination. But I had met Miss Edger so frequently during the year, that after the lapse of so many months I had forgotten that she had not been in attendance at our classes. 2485. Professor Cook.] By "papers" you mean examination papers? —Tes, examination papers given her. 2486. Professor Sale.] What do you mean by "the year"?—l find, on inquiring of Miss Edger this morning, that her impression is that she came up for the last three months of the year. Tho impression of the classical master is that she came up about four months. 2487. Professor Cook.] How often did Miss Edger come up to your school for examination papers during the last three or four months before she went in for the examination for a junior scholarship? -—On an average, I should say, once a week, for Latin and for mathematics. 2488. Did she come in pursuance of an arrangement with you or with your masters?—An arrangement with me. 2489. And will you kindly state in what subjects she w:as examined or otherwise assisted by means of papers ?—Latin aud mathematics. 2490. Were these papers always corrected and returned to her for her guidance ?—The papers of the classical master, to the best of my knowledge and belief, invariably corrected ; mine, from want of time, not always. 2491. The Chairman.] What examination papers were these you used to supply to Miss Edger? Were they your own examination papers which were submitted to pupils of your College ? —To tho best of my recollection they were the papers ordiuarilyr given to our first class. I speak of the mathematical papers. 2492. Tou do not allude to the annual examination papers, I presume?—l do not allude to the annual papers, but to papers given in the course of our ordinary work. 2493. Are these submitted to your pupils weekly, monthly, or quarterly? —At stated periods examinations are held on different subjects all through the year. 2494. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you have any objection to state how frequent those periods are? —Taking the average of the last three years examinations have been held at least once in six weeks in all subjects of study in the upper school. 2195. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Do I understand you to state that Miss Edger camo up and received from you papers in Latin and mathematics, that she took these back with her, answered them, returned them to you and Mr. Anderson, and that they were corrected by you and Mr. Anderson?—The papers on mathematics were given by me. The Latin work was dove with Mr. Auderson. The papers in Latin, to the best of my recollection, were the exercises from one of the ordinary Latin exercise-books. 2496. Done by her at home?— Done by her: the Latin papers I believe invariably corrected by Mr. Anderson ; the mathematical work corrected, and gone over with Miss Edger herself in my ow-n room, as long as I had time to carry out the arrangement. 2497. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Did you understand that you and Mr. Auderson were in this matter acting in a private capacity, or as representing the institution to which you bidouged ? —Acting, as we have always endeavoured to act, in helping in education those to w:hom we could give help. 2498. Do you object to answer to answer the question as I put it? Did you understand that you and Mr. Anderson were acting in this matter in a private capacity, or as representing the institution to which you both belong?—T did not consider the question whether the headmaster or Mr. Macrae was helping Miss Edger. 2499. The Chairman.] If she was receiving the assistance you state from your school, ought she to have been liable to pay the usual fees ? —No. 2500. Why not ? Does not every one attending the school pay fees ?—Sho was not on our books. She came to us once a week for certain help, but she was not entered as a pupil of the Auckland College and Grammar School. 2501. And you were aware of that at the time she was getting this assistance? —Certainly. 2502. The next question is, do you think that the University', as it now exists, has assumed the

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form best suited to the circumstances of the colony? If so, will you furnish the reasons for your opinion ?—The University is, by Act of Parliament, declared to be established " not for the purpose of teaching," but as a purely examining body. lam of opinion that this is the form of University best suited to the circumstances of tho colony. Tho time for the establishment of a teaching University has not, it appears to me, yet come ; and for the following reasons : 1. Students would not offer in sufficient numbers ; and without large numbers the special advantages of a teaching University cannot be obtained. 2. The great cost of such a University would bo more profitably incurred in aiding the development of existing secondary schools and colleges, by providing additional men for advanced work as they may be required, and by increasing the remuneration of those who have proved, or may prove, themselves zealous and successful teachers. 3. There is no centre for such a University; and, therefore, if it were established in any of the large towns, students of limited means would be unable to attend its classes. 2503. Will you also suggest what direction any further development of the University should take, or what improvement in its organization you think desirable? —I would respectfully suggest as improvements in the University organization and working : 1. The abolition of the affiliation of schools and colleges to the University, and, consequently, the holding of all examinations by the University examiners only. 2. That students who win scholarships be allowed to hold them although they may be unable to attend the classes of any educational institution. 3. Such conduct of the work of the Senate as would make annual sessions unnecessary, and changes in the rules and regulations and in the prescriptions of the subjects of study of rare occurrence. 4. That tho University examiners should hold office for at least three years. 5. That the Eegistrar, as chief executive officer of the University, and directly responsible to the Senate, should be charged with duties similar to those performed by the Eegistrar of the University of London. 2504. Have you any statement to make or any opinion to offer affecting any part of the subjectmatter of the inquiry with which the Commission is charged? —I respectfully express the opinion that, in the interest of higher education, it is exceedingly desirable that steps should be taken to obtain a report from a British Commission, to be selected from men who may have acted as examiners in Arts in, say, London, Cambridge, and Edinburgh Universities during the last few years, on the following : 1. The regulations specifying terms to be kept and examinations to be passed for the B.A. degree. 2. The regulations specifying conditions to be fulfilled and examinations to be passed for obtaining honours. 3. The recommendations and announcements made under authority of the above regulations since 1875. 4. The character of the examination papers set since the beginning of 1876 for degrees in Arts, junior and senior scholarships, and honours. 2505. The Chairman.] I think you expressed a wish to be re-examined on a certain portion of the evidence you gave on a former occasion: would you state what portion of the evidence it is?— The portion referring to the propriety of establishing colleges such as those of Canterbury and Otago in Auckland and other places. 2506. I understand that you desire to make some addition to the evidence you gave as to the question of establishing a separate institution for higher education in Auckland. To what part of your evidenco do you desire to make such addition, and what is the statement you would like to make ?—I have for years objected to the establishment of colleges such as those of Otago and Canterbury on the following grounds among others : That the annual cost would be great—out of proportion to tho results ; and that students would not offer in sufficient numbers. First, in support of the statement that students would not offer in sufficient numbers, I should like to give the Commission the numbers attending lectures in Arts at the University of Melbourne from 1804 to 1874, both inclusive. They are as follows : 27, 35, 36, 43, 45, 39, 80, 51, 45, 47, 71. The B.A. degrees conferred during tho same period were as follows: Before 1864, 19 ; and in the other years, 8, 1, 6, 6, 5, 7, 11, 6, 5, 12. And I would remind the Commission that the University of Melbourne is situated in a populous city in the heart of Victoria. In the University of Sydney, between 1857 and 1874. both inclusive, 96 students took the degree of Bachelor of Arts; and the average attendance of students at the University of Sydney has not been, I believe, oTer 30. The following is a summary of the attendance at the Otago University during the period from 1871 to 1877 : — 1871. 1872. 1573. 1874. 1875. 187 G. 1877. English literature ... ... 21 ... 7 ... 4 ... 3 ... 3 ... 4 ... 11 Latin ... ... ... 32 ... 23 ... 20 ... 12 ... 19 ... 17 ... 18 Greek ... ... ... 18 ... 9 ... 8 ... 2 ... 7 ... 0 ... 0 Mathematics ... ... 31 ... 30 ... 24 ... 21 ... 26 ... 24 ... 36 Mental and moral philosophy ... 19 ... 9 ... 12 ... 11 ... 9 ... 9 ... 13 Chemistry ... ' ... ... 0 ... 33 ... 29 ... 16 ... 15 ... 10 ... 11 Geology" ... ... ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 13 ... 3 ... 4 ... 4 Law ... ... ... 0 ... 0 ... 18 ... 5 ... 12 ... 10 ... 10 Anatomy ... ... ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 4 ... 1 ... 0 French ... ... ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 6 ... 7 ... 0 Italian ... ... ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 1 ... 0 ... 0 German ... ... ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 13 ... 8 ... 7 Botany ... ... ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 0 ... 1 Total of pupils ... ... 81 ... 70 ... 70 ... 50 ... 69 ... 55 ... 76 Of whom matriculated students 0 ... 7 ... 12 ... 5 ... 6 ... 8 ... 9 The falling off in the total attendance of pupils in the second year would have been greater, but for tho fact that in that year a new class—that of chemistry—opened with thirty-three pupils. In 1873 a new class —that of law—was opened with eighteen pupils, and yet the total attendance remained the same —seventy. In 1874 a new class—that of geology —was opened, and yet the total attendance had diminished from seventy to fifty. So far in confirmation of the statement that students would not offer in sufficient numbers. The next ground of my objection is that the annual cost would be great. The annual expense in the University of Melbourne from 1864 to

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874 was £12,500. In the University of Sydney the expense for 1872 —the only year for which I have a return —was £7,265 10s. The annual expense of the Otago University can be easily obtained from the official reports, but it is some thousands a year. The annual cost would be out of proportion to the results. lam of opinion that a much better return could be got for the money spent in the Universities of Melbourne and Sydney, and in the Otago University, by another kind of expenditure—a much better return than that of the small number of graduates produced. I forgot to add to the statement of students not offering in sufficient numbers, the number of graduates produced by the University of Otago —that is, who have passed the examinations of the University of New Zealand. Taking the whole statement —the number of students at these teaching colleges, the annual cost, the small number who complete their undergraduate course —I am of opinion that the money of the country would be much more profitably employed in less pretentious work. It appears to me that these colleges should grow, and not be started into existence with large staffs; that, considering the limited amount of money at the disposal of the country for the purposes of higher education, it cannot, while the provision for even secondary education in the North Island is utterly inadequate, afford to pay professors in such colleges for doing the small amount of work which the experience of Melbourne, Sydney, aud Otago show they would have to do. 2507. Professor Ulrich.] Tou stated that the annual expense of the University of Melbourne was about £12,000. Are you aware that in that sum is included the cost of a Chair in engineering, a number of lectures in anatomy and surgery—in fact, that there is a perfect medical degree given by the Melbourne University —that it includes also the cost of a great number of lectures in law, and that the students of the University altogether number close upon 300, instead of the limited number you have stated? —I was not aware that the expense of all these faculties was included in the £12,500, but lam glad to be assured of it on the statement of Professor Ulrich. Ido not think it will affect my argument in the least. 2508. Professor Cook.] In your statement you said there were nine matriculated students attending the Otago University in 1877 ? —Tes. 2509. Is that the total number of matriculated students who were attending in 1877, or is it the number who joined the University in that year? —So far as I am aware, and as I read the official accounts, the number in actual attendance. 2510. Eeferring to the question of Professor Ulrich, can you tell us how many students pass their annual examinations at the present time in the University of Melbourne in all subjects ? —I cannot. 2511. Have you a similar return with respect to Canterbury College ? —No ; I endeavoured to find one, but could not. 2512. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Arc you acquainted with the provisions of the Civil Service examinations ? —Generally, I am. 2513. Have the requirements of those examinations at anytime affected your curriculum? I mean, have you at any time made the requirements of that examination a guide for any class in the school? —To the best of my recollection, to this extent only: that the reading of a class in Latin may have been directed to one book rather than another for a short time, when, but for the requirements of the Civil Service examination, it would have been a matter of indifference what selection of book was made. Mr. TnEoruiLus Kissling was sworn and examined. 2514. The Chairman.] Tou are a member of the legal profession, and hold the position of Eegistrar of Deeds? —-Tes. 2515. Tou are acquainted with the fact that certain reserves were granted to the Wesleyan body for religious and educational purposes at Three Kings ?—I am aware that there were certain reserves granted at the Three Kings for the Wesleyan Mission. There were four grants dated respectively the lst April, 1845, 15th October, 1850, 31st August, 1850, and 19th June, 1852. 2516. We do not ask you for a legal opinion, but can you say whether, according to your books as Eegistrar, the terms of the trust are the same now as when the grants were originally made ?—My answer to that would be simply to state what there is iv the register —namely, a Crown grant, a conveyance from the Superintendent of the Mission to the trustees appointed under the model deed, and a subsequent appointment of fresh trustees. 2517. Under what authority of law did the model deed come in as a secondary element in dealing with the estate? —Under "The Eeligious and Charitable Trusts Act, 1856." But I may state that this is under the deeds registration system, and that system simply secures priority of title by registration. The fact of those documents being registered would not change the trust. If the party had no power to alter the trust, the original trust would still remain ; the registration would not alter it. 2518. I think you said tho model trust deed was registered under the Act of 1856 ?—Tes. It was not registered against the properties at the Three Kings, although the appointment of trustees was made under it. 2519. Are you aware whether any opinions on the efficacy of that deed are among the records of the Land Eegistry Office ? —There are none to my knowledge. 2520. By reference to the Eegistry Book I suppose you could tell us what variation with regard to the trusteeship arises from the registration of the model deed ?—There is a conveyance dated 7th October, 1857, from the Eev. Walter Lawry to John Williamson, Captain James Stone, Henry White, Thomas Eussell, and others, wdiereby Mr. Lawry conveys to the persons named all those pieces of land included in the grants " upon such and the same trusts, and to and for such and the same ends, intents, and purposes, and with, under, and subject to such and the same powers, provisoes, declarations, and agreements, as are expressed, contained, and declared or referred to in and by a certain deed of conveyance bearing date on or about the thirty-first day of October, in the year one thousand eight hundred and fifty-six, and made or expressed to be made between Henry Matson, therein described, of the first part, the Eeverend John Eggleston, also therein described, of the second part, aud Edward Bull, George Lovett, Eobert Lovett, Captain James Stone, Henry Ellis, James Heron, Eichard Matthews, Alfred

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Boon, Henry White, and Archibald Somerville, therein respectively described, of the third part, and enrolled in Her Majesty's Supreme Court of New Zealand, at Auckland aforesaid, on the fourth day of November, one thousand eight hundred aud fifty-six; being a deed made for the settlement of a piece or parcel of land and chapel or place of religious worship, with the appurtenances, situate at Parnell, in the suburbs of Auckland, Parish of Waitemata, and County of Eden, in New Zealand aforesaid, for the use of the people called Methodists, in the Australasian Connexion, and to, for, and upon no other use, trust, intent, and purposes whatsoever." 2521. Does that refer to all the endowments? —It refers to Lots 86 to 93, 119 and 124 of Section 10, 14 of Section 13, and 87, at Titirangi. 2522. Are you quoting from the model deed ?—No; from a conveyance made, as I presume, under the authority of the model deed. 2523. What is the habendum under the model trust deed? —It is as follows : [Habendum read.] 2523 a. According to your books, in whom does the legal estate vest at present? —-This is a memorandum of appointment under the hand of Mr. Buller, who, I think, was Chairman of the Wesleyan Conference: "Captain James Stone, merchant; Thomas Eussell, solicitor; James Heron, timbermerchant ; Frederick Lambert Prime, sharebroker ; John Edson, chemist; William Griffith, accountant; Edward Allen, farmer ; Joseph Liston Wilson, printer; John McEffer Shera, merchant; and Eichard Hobbs, draper." 2524. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the office of Eegistry of Deeds responsible to see that any deed of conveyance to new trustees is so drawn as to secure due respect to old trusts ? —No. 2525. Has the deed of conveyance to the new trustees, which has now been referred to, been brought under the Land Transfer Act, or is it simply in the Eegistry of Deeds? —It is still in the Eegistry of Deeds. Mr. Thomas Peacock was sworn and examined. 2526. The Chairman.] Tou are the Mayor of the City of Auckland, and a member of the Board of Governors of the Auckland College and Grammar School?—Tes. 2527. As a long resident in the City of Auckland you may probably have formed some opinion with regard to the state of secondary and superior education in the city ? —I have, of course, devoted a little attention to the subject as Chairman of the Committee of some of the district schools, but, unless the Commissioners are desirous of obtaining my opinion on any one point, I do not know that I have any special remark to offer. I may say, however, that the establishment of district schools in the suburbs of Auckland has had the effect of interfering with private secondary schools. There is now some difficulty in having secondary schools taught by private individuals on account of the attractions of ordinary primary schools drawing off the children. What lam referring to is this: Of course there are many people who do not desire to take advantage of the free education given in the primary schools, and who prefer to avail themselves of schools conducted by private individuals, until their children have reached such an age as would enable them to be admitted into the principal grammar school. Such private schools are in some measure becoming a failure on account of the paucity of attendance, and it will become a question as to whether residents in suburban districts will not be compelled to take advantage of the free education until their children can be admitted into the Grammar School. I have instances in my mind in which the parents find that the attractions of the common schools, which are now being so very liberally attended to by the Board of Education, are such as to deprive the private schools of the support of even those who are willing to pay for the education of their children. 2528. Dr. Wallis.] It is your opinion that primary education being free has exercised an injurious effect upon secondary education in this district ?—ln the way I have described it has had that effect upon private secondary schools. 2529. Would that effect be diminished if the education giveu in primary schools were to cease, and people had to pay ?—Of course, there is a feeliug among many that it is an advantage to have free education, but they are willing to pay for the education of their children, and are deprived of the opportunity of doing so by the fact that the number of pupils attending the private schools is so small that it would not pay to carry them on. The result will be that in the suburban districts there will really be no schools in which the children can be taught prior to their admission into the Grammar School, which can only take place when they have reached a certain age. 2530. Is it your opinion that Auckland has been unfairly treated in comparison with other districts of the colony in regard to secondary education? —I am not capable of forming a judgment with regard to the other parts of the colony. As far as the Grammar School in Auckland is concerned, we are all aware of the very insufficient accommodation, and the great necessity that exists for greater assistance in the Grammar School. 2531. At present, and for some time past, the Grammar School has done partly grammar-school work and partly college work: do you not think it would be desirable to have a grammar school doing grammar-school work, and a college, with a staff of professors, doing college work? —Yes; I am of that opinion. If I understand the proposition right, it is this: that the Grammar School should be confined in a great measure to teaching the higher branches of education, and be made to occupy an intermediate position—that it ought not to be a part of the duty of the higher grammar school to give so much of rudimentary education, but rather to follow up the education imparted in other schools. 2532. Is it your opinion, as a long resident here, that the Auckland College and Grammar School has been satisfactorily conducted ? —I cannot say. From what I have heard from others, who perhaps have a personal knowledge of the matter, I confess there seems to be a feeliug of dissatisfaction. Personally I am not in a position to give an opinion. 2533. You could not state the points ou which the dissatisfaction has arisen ?—Of course, anything I have heard has been in regard to the management. I have heard remarks made, which I am not prepared to verify, to the effect that the management of the Grammar School might be improved, and that there has been a want of cordial co-operation amongst the teachers.

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Feb. 21, 1879.

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2534. Do you refer to the tuition, or to the management by the Board of Governors ?—I refer to the management by the teachers —the general control of the school. 2535. Is the present mode of appointing the Governors one of which you approve ? Three are appointed by the Auckland members of Parliament, three by the Board of Education, and the Mayor is a member ex officio: would that form a good body for the management of a school? —I am not prepared to give an opinion, not having given the matter sufficient attention, and until I could suggest a better system I should not be prepared to say the present is not a good one. I believe myself that it is a good thing to have representatives appointed by the Board of Education, because those gentlemen would be able to bring some experience to bear upon the deliberations of the Board of Governors. 2536. The members of Parliament being so scattered, do you think they are proper persons to have anything to do with the Grammar School ? —Speaking just for the moment I cannot say exactly that the members of Parliament, merely from their being connected with the Legislature, would necessarily form the best governors. I have, however, not given sufficient consideration to the matter to feel justified in giving a decided opinion. I apprehend that the appointment of the Mayor as an ex officio member of the Board is beneficial, inasmuch as there are other questions besides those relating to mere education, which he would be able to give an opinion upon. 2537. If we had a college here analogous to what they have in Christchurch and Dunedin, do you think a sufficient number of young men and women would offer themselves as students ?—I feel quite sure on that point. 2538. I understand that there are about twenty undergraduates in Christchurch, and about the same number in Dunedin : would Auckland produce as many? —I feel quite sure of that, if a college were established. 2539. Professor Cook.] Supposing such a college as Dr. Wallis referred to were established in Auckland, ought it, in your opinion, to be absolutely independent of any school already existing here ? —I think it ought to be a distinct department altogether. 2540. But do you think it ought to be a distinct institution, entirely independent of any of the schools already existing here, having no connection with them, excepting so far as it formed a higher institution to which they would all work up? —I think it ought to be distinct in that sense. It ought not to be considered as specially belonging to any one school. 2541. In the early part of your examination you spoke about parents being willing to pay for the education of their children at private schools, and said that those schools were not able to keep open owing to the primary schools being liberally provided for in different parts of the country?— Yes. 2542. If children are taken away from these private schools in any large numbers to go to the district schools established by the Government, would not those private schools be rather in the nature of private primary schools than private secondary schools ? —lt is usually the case that these private schools aim at giving a higher education than the primary schools. There is another reason why parents would prefer an efficient private school, and that is, that the number of pupils would not be so large, and therefore greater attention would be devoted to the boys individually than would be the case at a large primary school. 2543. The Chairman.] Have you any knowledge of the University or collegiate education given in Otago and Canterbury ? —I have not. But I have a general knowledge of the existence of those institutions, and the character of the education they are supposed to give. 2544. As far as you know* of the City and the Province of Auckland, do you think they are ripe for such institutions for giving collegiate education as exist in Dunedin and Christchurch ? —I think Auckland is quite ripe, and that such an institution as you refer to should decidedly be established. 2545. Dr. Wallis.] Is there uot a great need in Auckland of the opportunities of acquiring technical education ? —Yes ; although I confess my own opinion is that there is sometimes too much attention given in primary schools to subjects of that character, which are much better deferred until the pupils are more advanced. I have sometimes seen a considerable amount of injury done by endeavouring to impart too much scientific knowledge to pupils at a time when they would be better employed in being thoroughly grounded in the essential elements of a general education. 2546. I mean that at present there are no opportunities in Auckland for the study of optics, for instance ?—None, except occasional popular lectures. I am aware that in the Auckland Grammar School there is a chemistry class; but of course the facilities for acquiring a thorough knowledge of scientific subjects are not to be found in Auckland. They are very much greater in some other colonial cities. 2547. The Chairman^] From your long residence in Auckland, you could perhaps express an opinion as to the difficulties the Auckland College and Grammar School has had to contend with owing to the waut of suitable buildings ?—Yes ; it is a matter of general knowledge. Every one is aware of the discomfort and inconvenience to which the pupils have been subjected ; and I suppose there are few places where the facilities for imparting a good sound education have been less than in Auckland. There is no doubt that a first-class building, with all the necessary accessories, is very much wanted. 2548. You might state, in a few words, how the Grammar School is at present housed ? —Tho different classes are apportioned off to various buildings. lam aware that last year there were great complaints from the parents. It was said that some of the boys had fainted ; and there was generally a feeling of apprehension that the health of the pupils would suffer if they were continued to be packed together as they then were. I myself visited one of the classes, and thought that the number of boys that were crowded into the small schoolroom was very much too large—that there was not anything like sufficient air-space ; and that, altogether, the state of things would have a prejudicial effect on the progress of higher education. 2549. Are the buildings at present occupied by the Grammar School inferior or superior to the schools provided for primary education in the City of Auckland ? —Very far inferior. 2550. Dr. Wallis.] Is the sum of £5,000 sufficient or insufficient for a grammar school in such a town as Auckland ?—1 think, looking to the wants of the district, that £5,000 is not sufficient, and that the Government might fairly be asked to increase that amount by at least 50 per cent. 16— H. 1.

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2551. Professor Ulrich.] Tou stated, in answer to Dr. Wallis, that you thought there was too much technical education given in the primary schools, and that it ought to be left to the grammar schools. Is it, then, your opinion that in the grammar-school course there should be more scientific education— that there should be more physics, chemistry, and so on?—I do not know that I would say that. In referring to schools in which, in my opinion, too much prominence was given to technical education, I had one school in my mind in particular. As to the teaching of science in the grammar school, I think it would be more suitable there, and it would be still more properly taught in such a college as has been spoken of, if one were established here. It seems to me that these subjects are of a kind that would more fitly come after the general education has been pretty well perfected. 2552. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou mentioned that £5,000 was not sufficient for the Grammar School, and that it ought to be increased at least 50 per cent. Do you mean that it should be expended on school buildings, class-rooms, &c. ?—Tes. That is the great want Auckland has suffered from —want of proper school accommodation, and I think it should take precedence of all other things. As to whether it would not be advisable to have a grant for more efficiently carrying on the education after the buildings are erected, of course that is another question. But in the meantime the great want in Auckland is for a thoroughly good building for the Grammar School; and I think, on that ground, the Government ought to assist, and make a larger vote than has been promised. 2553. The Chairman.] As far as your knowledge of the Grammar School goes, has it been fairly open to all classes and all denominations irrespective of rank or religion ?—Yes. The Eev. C. M. Nelson, M.A., was sworn and examined. 2554. The Chairman.] Tou are the clergyman of St. Paul's, in the City of Auckland ? —Tes. 2555. And you are a graduate of Cambridge University ?—Tes. 2556. How long have you resided in Auckland ?—For nearly nine years. 2557. During that time you have probably given some attention to the subject of education as it has come under your knowledge from time to time? —I have constantly done so. 2558. I thiuk that, in conjunction with Mr. Lusk, you have recently examined the Auckland College and Grammar School ?—I have. 2559. What opinion did you form of tho style of education given in that institution as compared with that given in grammar schools at Home? —I can hardly answer that question in one piece, because I examined in certain subjects and Mr. Lusk in certain other subjects, aud I hold a very divided opinion with reference to the results attained in the two subjects in which I examiued. As to one branch I feel very well satisfied, and as to the other I do not think that the standard has been attained which should have been attained. 2560. With what branch were you satisfied ?—Classics. 2561. How was the work of examination apportioned between you and your co-examiner? —We had classics and mathematics, history and French, audi gave Mr. Lusk his choice of subjects, he being senior to myself and having examined before, and he preferred taking the mathematical examination throughout tho school, which he accordingly did. I took the classics and likewise the history and the French, although, as you will hear afterwards, there was no examination made in the latter; aud, as a set-off, considering the different number of subjects in mathematics which Mr. Lusk had to take in the lower division of the school, I took the geography. So that my portion of the examination was the classics of the whole school, the history of the whole school, and the geography of the lower division of the school; I also prepared papers in French which were distributed, but there was no examination in that subject. 2562. Where did the deficiency in the education to which you have alluded occur? —Principally in the subject of history. 2563. AVhat histories did you examine in—Grecian, Eoman, and English?—ln the first division the subjects set were —Eoman history for the first class (I cannot say, speaking from memory, whether it was the whole or a portion of the history) ; Grecian history for the second class; and periods of British history for the other. For the lower division the subject was elementary British history. 2564. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In expressing satisfaction with the classical work of the school," do you refer to the quality of the teaching, or to the range of the course of study, or to both ?—I think that for boys of the age the range was sufficiently extended for the colonies. Ido not know whether it would be more extended in England than here —hardly, I should think; but the work was throughout fairly well done. There were no great gaps. All the different classes seemed to be well up one after the other; and in some instances the work was exceedingly well done. 2565. What was the highest kind of work done iv classics when you examined?—l suppose the highest test—there the pupils failed most, as I was prepared to think they would—would be composition, putting easy English into Latin. At that they made the least show, but I was not at all surprised to find that that was the case. I believe the subject of composition is only of recent introduction into any of the schools in Aucklaud. But in the matter of translation I was very much pleased; in most instances there was an amount of accuracy displayed that I was hardly prepared to hope for. 2566. The Chairman^] Was your examination conducted solely by papers, or was it viva voce?— Entirely by papers. 2567. Dr. Wallis.] There is in Auckland at present a Grammar School which unites also college work. Do you thiuk that that combination should continue—that our Grammar School should do both grammar-school work and college work —or is it your opinion that the two branches ought to be separate, and that ihero should be a grammar school doing grammar-school work aud a college doing college work ? —I think there can bo no two opinions about that, aud I have no divided opinion on the point. I think, personally, that it is decidedly injurious to the work of a college as a college that there should be grammar-school work going on at the same time ; and I think it would be fairer to the examiners that there should be different examiners for both departments.

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2568. It would be desirable, then, in your opinion, that there should be a college established in Auckland, such as exists in Dunedin and in Christchurch, with a staff of professors? —I do not know anything of those institutions in the South except what I have read of them; but if one may take what is written of them, I should think it would be decidedly advisable to establish such a college here for higher education. 2569. On an average there are about twenty undergraduates at Canterbury College, and twenty or thereabouts at the Otago University. Do you think that the Province of Auckland would supply an equal number of undergraduates in the course of a few years? —I think there would be no difficulty in doing that, always presuming that they would remaiu longer at such an institution than they are likely to remain at the Grammar School at present. 2570. What is your idea of the form of University most suited to New Zealand? Should it be based on the London University, the Queen's University in Ireland, or any combination of these ? —I feel that I have hardly sufficient knowledge of the subject to give an opinion that would be worth much. I should think, however, from what I know of it, that the London University would be more likely to meet the present wants of New Zealand. 2571. I understand that in the colony at present there are at least two lines of thought on this subject. Some people are in favour of having a University at Otago, another at Christchurch, another at Wellington, and another at Auckland. Do you not think that one University, embracing the whole colony, and being an examining body, would be preferable to such a large number of Universities?— Most decidedly. Still, one might favour the idea which at present exists, or is supposed to exist, of affiliated colleges. 2572. Professor Cook.] That is not the London University model?—No ; but, as Dr. Wallis said, a combination. 2573. I do not know whether you are aware of the constitution of the Queen's University in Ireland as distinct from that of the London University. The London University is an examining body, pure and simple. It says to its undergraduates, " Get your education where you can, and if you pass our examination we will give you a degree." The Queen's University in Ireland is an institution composed of three colleges—one at Cork, one at Belfast, and one at Galway. Each has its teaching staff, the same as tho colleges at Cambridge have; and these three colleges together form tho University. Now, supposing a collegiate institution were established at Auckland and one at Wellington, similar to the two already existing in the Southern Island, do you think the London University model or the Queen's University model would be preferable ? —My former answer I gave in partial ignorance ; but I thiuk, if that be the idea, and if it were feasible here, it would meet my views more than anything else —I mean the Queen's University in Ireland. 2574. You think that would be the preferable model ?—Tes, provided there were such collegiate institutions. My first answer was given with the idea that there were no such institutions, because, though they nominally exist, they do not exist really —not in the North. Of course I know nothingabout the South Island at all, and my first answer, that the Londou University model would be better, was having regard to the present condition of the North. 2575. With reference to the classical part of the examination at the Auckland College and Grammar School, in your opinion is the standard attained in Latin equal to that attained at English grammar schools ?—No ; I doubt whether it is quite equal. 2576. Tou qualified one of your answers by saying what you had been " led to expect." I did not know whether you referred to anything you had heard about the school, or to anything the masters had told y rou ? —I was fortunately in a position to give an unbiassed opinion, for I knew nothing about the school, and had had no conversation with the masters whatever. What I was led to expect wras simply from newspaper reports. But Ido not look for the same standard in Latin as I should expect from English boys. 1 had long given up that idea. 2577. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou prepared examination papers in French, and were led to believe there was a French class ? —I believed so. I prepared two papers —one a higher test, and tho other an elementary test. 2578. Do you know how it happened that there was no examination? —As far as I was given to understand, it was in this way : The examination of the school extended over a long period; tho subjects were many, and they were taken to suit tho convenience of the examiners and the masters. My paper in French had been prepared a long time, and it was printed aud sent to tho authorities. But other papers intervened, and they came on the days on which the French paper should have been done, until it was driven into the second week —Monday, and on that day there was some other examination coining on, either for the Civil Service or for something else of that kind, and the headmaster of the College and Grammar School said that several of his best French pupils would be occupied with that examination, and he took upon himself to say that the examination in French should not take place. I have his letter to that effect. The papers were prepared, printed, and in the hands of the school authorities, and I was ready to do the work. 2579. And, so far as you know, it was merely because other examinations interfered with the examination in French ? —Yes. 2580. Dr. Wallis.] You have said that you were disappointed with the historical knowledge displayed by the scholars. In what respects was it defective?— There were eight boys in the first class. I examined their papers in Eoman history, and I returned one boy as having done an. exceedingly good paper, and as to the rest I noted that they had little knowledge of the subject at all; aud that was my opinion. 2581. Were they deficient in facts, dates, or principles?—-With the exception of one boy, they were deficient in all. 2582. Professor Cook.] You have had some experience as an examiner of schools ? —Tes ; I have had constant experience here, and in the Old Country before I left. 2583. What is your opinion as to the value of history as a school subject at all? —My opinion is that it would depend entirely upon the capacity and ability of the teachers.

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Sev.C.M. Nelson,

2584. The Chairman.] Did you form any opinion as to the suitability or otherwise of the buildings in which the Grammar School is being held?— There is very little doubt that the buildings are utterly unsuitable. 2585. I think you have been examiner for the Parnell Grammar School for some years ? —Tes, three years out of four. 2586. What is your opinion as to the proficiency iv that school, say, in regard to classics—not in comparison with any other school ? —The work at the school is very uneven indeed. Some few of the pupils do their Latin very well, but, with the exception of a few, I should regard Latin as rather a weak subject in the school. 2587. Did you examine that school in mathematics ?—Tes. I would say, with reference to the Latin, that there was an improvement this year as compared with previous years : still the Latin was a weak subject. In mathematics the results were reasonably fair. I had the advantage this time of being allowed, through the kind permission of Mr. Lusk, to see the papers which he set for the Auckland College and Grammar School, and which, with two exceptions, were used simultaneously for the other school. 2588. Have you any general opinion as to the sufficiency of the staff of the Parnell School —I do not mean the efficiency of the masters —for instructing the number of pupils ?—I think that, to do justice to the school, they should have another assistant. las much as intimated that in the report which I presented to the Board recently. The school is divided into three divisions —an upper division, a second division, and a lower division—and the bulk of the pupils are in the second division, which I think, for the efficient teaching of the school, ought to be subdivided, and have two teachers. 2589. Is it a fact that that school is dependent entirely upon the fees from the pupils ? —I believe it is. 2590. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] How many masters are there ? —At present there is a vacancy, but the staff when complete comprises three masters —the headmaster and two assistants—and there is a visiting master who teaches drawing, and another who instructs in botany. 2591. How many pupils are there ? —About eighty, I think. 2592. Bey. W. j. Habens.] On what grounds have you come to the conclusion that we must not expect as good work in Latin from boys iv the colonies as from boys at Home ? —Experience ; hitherto I have found it so. Ido not mean to say that we ought not to hope to get the standard as high as we find it in England, but eight years' experience in Auckland has taught me that boys here of the same age do not know so much Latin as they do in the Old Country ; and, when we know they do not, it is useless to expect the standard to be as high. 2593. Dr. Wallis.'} Have you any experience of the knowledge possessed by girls in Auckland of Latin and mathematics?— None whatever, with the exception of the singular instance of Miss Edger, who replied to my papers in Latin at the Auckland College and Grammar School, and whom I had no hesitation in placing first. 2594. Which Miss Edger ? —Miss Lilian Edger. She did better than the best boy, who did very well. Her papers were really a pleasure to read. 2595. Professor Cook.] The examination she underwent, I presume, would count for her annual examination to satisfy the requirements of the University ? —I am not aware. The papers were simply sent to me ; I suppose they were something special. The list of pupils was sent, and there was a line drawn, and Miss Edger's name was put underneath ; but the standard was the same. 2596. Have you formed any opinion as to the desirableness of a general system of inspection and examination for the whole of the secondary schools in the colony ? —I have not thought on the subject; I have not dreamt of the possibility of it even. 2597. Tou are possibly aware that some time back it was the fashion for schools in England to get their examiners from the Universities iv a haphazard sort of way, but that within the last three or four years a joint Board from Oxford and Cambridge has been formed, which, on application being made from schools, appoints the necessary number of examiners for them. Do you think we might gradually work up to some such plau as that, with the view of examining the whole of the secondary schools in the colony systematically ? —I think it very possible indeed. If we had the men of the same standard it would be advisable ; and I should think there would be plenty of good men found for the work in New Zealand. 2598. The Chairman.] I think you are an ad eundem graduate of the New Zealand University?— Tes. 2599. Are you aware that under the present law it is proposed to exclude ad eundem graduates from the Convocation which is to be established? —I was not aware of the fact. I should think they might do better than exclude some of those who have taken ad eundem degrees. 2600. As far as your knowledge extends, has the University of New Zealand conferred upon the colony those advantages which might be expected from a University ?—I am afraid not.

Feb. 21, 1879.

Saturday, 22nd February, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich. Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Mr. J. F. Slosian, 8.A., was sworn and examined. 2601. The ChairmanJ] Tou are one of the masters in the Auckland College aud Grammar School ? —Tes. 2602. How long have you held the office of master in that school?— For seven years.

Mr. J. F. Sloman,

Feb. 22,1879.

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2603. What position do you occupy in the school ?—At present I hold the position of mathematical . master. 2604. Previous to joining the school what was your experience as a teacher ? —lmmediately previous to joining the school I attended the University of Sydney. Before that I had been connected with the Ipswich Grammar School in Queensland, and prior to that I had passed my apprenticeship as a pupil-teacher in the national primary schools of New South Wales. 2605. Tou graduated at the Sydney University? —Yes. 2606. What was the course you had to pursue as an undergraduate of the University ? Had you to be in attendance on lectures ?—Yos ; we attended lectures at the University in classics, mathematics, and physics, chemistry or geology, according to the subjects we took. 2607. How many years had you ?—Three years. 2608. And how many terms each year ? —Three terms. 2609. As a resident in New Zealand have you formed any opinion as to the efficacy of the present University of New Zealand as an educational institution ?—I think it likely to do good work; it has not been in existence long enough yet to show much work. 2610. Has it, in your opinion, had a beneficial effect on the Auckland Grammar School?—Tes. 2611. In what way ? —lt has acted as an incentive towards higher education. 2612. From your knowledge of Auckland do you think there would be scope for establishing a separate collegiate institution for higher education distinct from the grammar-school or secondary education? Tou are aware that in Canterbury and Otago they have distinct collegiate institutions : in your opinion, would Auckland supply a sufficient number of students to warrant the establishment of a college distinct from the Grammar School ? —At present I think the number of students would not justify that. 2613. I understand you, then, to say that, in your opinion, Auckland is not ripe for having University education bestowed upon it as distinct from grammar-school education ?—I did not intend to say that exactly ; but I think it is not ripe for an institution of its own devoted simply to University work as distinct from grammar-school work. 2614. Professor Cook.] Tou think Auckland ought not to bo deprived of some share in the advantages of the University ? —Certainly not. 2615. How do you propose that the University education should be given? —In the same way that it has been given ; we have given University education hitherto. 2616. Do you think that has been a satisfactory method in all its bearings ? To make the question more definite, do you not think the presence of students in the Auckland Grammar School, who are trying to do University work, has overtaxed the powers of tho masters ? —Certainly it has been hard work for the masters. 2617. And you think that that state of things should be allowed to continue?—No, not to continue; but University work would gradually be developed from the grammar-school work, and the institution would grow. 2618. In what way would it grow ? In wdiat possible way could it grow ?—As a demand was shown for University work, men could bo put apart for that work. 2619. But do you know of any instauce in any part of the world where a University has grown out of a school in that way ? —I cannot say I remember any instance. 2620. Does it not appear to you, as a University man, that the kind of work to be done is so essentially different in character that it could not possibly grow out of a school? For instance, the lectures you were accustomed to attend at Sydney were, I should think, of such a kind that they could not possibly grow out of school work ?—I think to some extent the Sydney University grew out of school work, because I know that the mathematical professor in the early days taught vulgar fractions, decimal fractions, and soon. 2621. Tes, but the University was not, I thiuk, developed out of a school? I want to know how it is possible for the one to grow out of the other ? —The University students at the Grammar School form a class by themselves. They are not taken with the boys who are merely following grammar-school work; they form the highest class in the school, and consequently their lessons or lectures are given to them apart from the others. lam speaking here of what took place in 1876. 2622. But we have had it in evidence from Mr. Macrae that the University undergraduates merely received their instruction in the sixth form with others who are not undergraduates. We have also had it in evidence from Mr. Nelson that no special examination was held, at any rate last year, for the undergraduates —that there was the ordinary school examination? —There was a distinct examination for the undergraduates, for I set a paper myself ; but Mr. Nelson certainly only examined the school. I think he had a paper from one of the undergraduates, but not as an undergraduate of the University. 2623. But is it not a fact that undergraduates are taught, and always have been taught, as part of the upper form ?■—They do form part of the sixth form with certain pupils who are fit to w rork with them, but who do not wish to go into tho University course. 2624. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] How many are there attending what you call the University class, and receiving University education at the present moment? —There are two undergraduates at present connected with the school who have not yet returned this year, and there are five others, not undergraduates, who will have their education along with them, 2625. Do these additional five intend to go up for a degree?—Tes. I cannot answer for every one of them, but some of them do. 2626. Professor Sale.] The only distinction between the five and the two is that the five have not yet matriculated ? —-Tes. 2627. Are they fit to matriculate? —Tes. 2628. Aud do you expect they will matriculate on the next occasion ?—Yes. 2629. Then your idea is that the sixth form should gradually cease to be a sixth form, and become a class devoted solely to University education?—Tes.

Mr. J. F. Sloman.

Feb. 22,1879.

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2630. Can there be anything gradual in such a process as that ?—I think so, inasmuch as all education is gradual. 2631. Tes; but I mean in tho step of converting a sixth form into a set of students receiving University education, and in converting part of a school into a college, can there be anything gradual? Must it not be a complete step ? —Certainly it is a complete step, but I do not think an abrupt step. 2632. Rev. W. J. Habens.] Is the form you are speaking of that which, under Mr. Tisdall's guidance, was reading Virgil when I visited the school with the other Commissioners the other day ?— A. part of that form consisted of those lads, but there was another class with them on that occasion—a lower class. 2633. So that the class of which you expect the members soon to become undergraduates were reading then with the class below them ? —On that occasion. 2634. Is that an ordinary arrangement ? —No. 2635. Do you know of any special circumstances on that day which led to that arrangement?—-I think I may quote two circumstances : First, our staff of masters was incomplete, from tho absence of an English master ; and, secondly, our time-table for the year was not then made up. 2636. The Chairman.] Is it customary to have a time-table such as was made up recently ? Had you such a time-table in the previous year ? —Tes. 2637. Was it simply that the time-table was not prepared this year ?—Tes ; the classes take some little time at the beginning of the year to classify, and the time-table is drawn up then to meet the exigencies of the classes which may- be formed. 2638. But I understand you to say that during previous years you have always had a time-table ? —Tes. 2639. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What, in your opinion, are the principal difficulties with which secondary education has to contend in Auckland ? I mean grammar-school education in general?—l cannot say that w re have any special difficulties in Auckland —none have struck me. 2640. Do you find that as a rule boys stay at school long enough to avail themselves to the fullest extent that is desirable of a grammar-school course ? —As a rule they do not; but that is not a difficulty peculiar to Auckland. 2641. The Chairman.] Do I understand you to state, Mr. Sloman, before this Commission, that the present system of giving University education in Auckland is satisfactory?—lt has difficulties to contend with. Do you mean, Mr. Chairman, the nature of the education given? 2642. I mean the opportunity rather of giving University education ?■ —It certainly requires a staff of lecturers, or professors, or teachers to carry it out. 2643. As a University graduate, and as a teacher, do you think the opportunities of receiving a University education in Auckland are satisfactory or unsatisfactory ? —I should say that on the whole they are satisfactory —that is, so far as those who have received the education are concerned. 2644. And as a natural consequence you approve of the present system of blending grammarschool education with University education ? —Tes, as we at present carry it out; but the results have been attained with too great an expenditure of labour. 2645. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou spoke of difficulties—what difficulties? —One of the difficulties we have to contend with at present is want of accommodation. We have had to devise plans to keep the University pupils by themselves. We have suffered chiefly from want of accommodation. 2646. Professor Sale.] Have there not been difficulties in finding time to take the undergraduates separately ? —We have had difficulties which have been met by certain masters of classes meeting outside of what we call the usual school hours. 2647. At what hours in the day?—A class was held from half-past S until half-past 9 in the morning on particular days. lam not quite sure on that point; but I think almost every day in the week at one time. 2648. Any in the evening ? —None in the evening. 2649. Any in the ordinary hours of recreation ? —Not in the midday recess. 2650. At any other time of the day ? —That was the only time. 2651. Is it possible in one hour a day to prepare a student for all the work he has to do in preparing himself for a University degree ?—I do not wish you to understand that the class was only held at that hour, but that was one hour at which it was held. It was held also during the three hours of the morning, of which this was one, the other tw ro being in the ordinary school hours. 2652. Exactly. Then at the other hours it was not a distinct University class ? I understood from you that this class was taken from half-past 8 to half-past 9 as an extra hour —taken for the University undergraduates only. At what other time of the day were the University undergraduates taught by themselves ? —They continued there from half-past 8 until half-past 11. 2653. But I understood you to say " along with others " ?—By themselves. This was an arrangement made in the year 1876. Last year other lads, who were fit to do so, worked with the undergraduates. 2653 a. Working by themselves without assistance ?—No, with a master. 2654. Then is the time-table arranged so that one master can be devoted solely to University work for four hours every day ?—So that one master of course might; but one has the Latin, another mathematics, another the chemistry, and so on. 2655. Were there four masters ?—Three masters in the upper school and a chemistry master. 2656. Then every day each of these four masters devoted one hour to special University work ? — Some time to special University work ; I am not sure how long. 2657. And took the University students by themselves ? —Tes. 2658. Do you think it is satisfactory that the ordinary school work should be interfered with to this extent ?—The classes of the school would not be interefered with under such an arrangement as that. The master who had that form had to attend au hour earlier, and he was allowed that time at some other part of the day. He had his five hours'work during the day—the ordinary course of the school, so that if he attended an hour earlier in the morning it meant an hour off' at some other part of the day. The work of the school was .not interfered with.

Mr. J. F. Sloman.

Feb. 22, 1879.

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2659. Then it simply entailed one hour's additional work on each of these masters ?—Hardly one hour additional; really one hour out of the usual time. 2660. That is in addition, is it not ?—Not if the hour is taken oft' afterwards—for instance, if the master left at 3 o'clock instead of at 4 o'clock. 2661. Then, if he leaves at 3 o'clock instead of 4 o'clock, does not the school suffer to that extent? —I think it possible that the time-table could be arranged so as to prevent any loss to the school. 2662. The Chairman.] What is the prescribed time for opening the school?— The usual hour is half-past 9 o'clock. 2663. Then do I understand that for the purpose of conducting the tuition of the University students the school opens at half-past 8? —Not at present. That was a means which we took to meet the University students. 2664. And how many masters would attend at half-past 8 ?—One. 2665. Who would that master be —the headmaster or the second master ?—I think I took the class one day in the week, and the classical master took it the remaining four days. 2666. Was there any special remuneration given to the masters for doing this voluntary work?— None. 2667. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I understand that each master was released from one hour's ordinary school work during the day as a kind of compensation for the ejtra hour?—Tes. 2668. Professor Cook.] I am not quite clear what, happens to the undergraduates after half-past 9 —they stay on for another two hours under the direction of a master?—Tes. 2669. By themselves, or mixed with another class ? —By themselves. lam speaking here of what took place in 1876. 2670. They never work with the ordinary sixth form then: I mean, in a general way, do they work with the sixth form ?—They had five forms below them. Of course a form being divided into two parts for different work does not interfere with the five forms below. They formed what you would call the sixth form. 2671. Then your ordinary school consisted of only five forms?—At first of six forms, but the sixth form gradually grew into the University class. 2672. But you never had in it at any one time any very great number of undergraduates, I think? What was the greatest number, speaking roughly? —I think we have had five there at a time. 2673. And do you think it was a satisfactory arrangement that a school consisting of something like 200 scholars should only be divided into five forms —a school as distinct from the undergraduates? —I cannot say that the school suffered under that arrangement. 2674. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou seemed to convey the meaning that one hour might be given to the undergraduate class, but at the same time the masters would only have to teach five hours. That would in my mind imply that one hour was to be taken off every five, and that four hours only were to be devoted to school purposes ? —The man who had the extra hour had four hours in the school, but the ordinary five hours' work of the school was conducted by the other masters. 2675. Professor Sale.] Was that done by putting two classes together?—ln some cases, yes. Mr. C. A. Boburtson was sworn and examined. 2676. The Chairman.] You are one of the masters at the Auckland College and Grammar School ? —Yes. 2677. How long have you held that office ? —Five years and six months. 2678. I think that previous to that you were also engaged in educational matters?—l have been a trained schoolmaster for eighteen years. 2679. What position as a schoolmaster did you hold before coming to the Grammar School ?— Previous to my appointment here I was headmaster of the Thames District School. 2680. How many pupils did you number there ?—540. 2651. And what position in the Auckland College aud Grammar School were you appointed to, on taking office under the Board ?—Junior master. 2682. Are you still in that position ?—Tes. 2683. You have received no promotion ? —I have not. 2684. Neither in the way of an advanced class nor additional salary ?—No change of status whatever, cither in respect of salary or work. 2685. Have you formed any opinion as to the bearing the New Zealand University has had upon the Auckland College and Grammar School ?—I thiuk the taking of University work in a grammar school such as ours has been a serious drawback to the effective educational work performed by the Grammar School before. 2686. Have you ever been called upon to administer University education to any of the pupils? —No. Of course I simply express my opinion in regard to that from what I have seen. 2687. How many boys are there in your present class ?—Thirty-seven this quarter. 2688. Have they to pass any preliminary examination before being admitted to the school?— There is a standard of some sort; it is difficult to define. Indeed the test for admission depends very largely on myself —in this way : The sources from which we chiefly obtain these pupils are a number of private schools, in which to a large extent the education is irregular or not uniform ; and iv some cases I may get boys who are pretty well up in arithmetic but very deficient in spelling, and others who are very fair spellers, but know nothing about arithmetic, &c; and I have to measure their capacity, to judge whether it would be profitable for them to join the class. lam not able to make any standard. It has always been understood that they should be able to do the simple rules of arithmetic ; but in many cases I have taken pupils wdio could not do the simple rules of arithmetic, because they showed sufficient capacity otherwise, and that they would very soon learn. 2689. They have always been able to read and write before being taken at the Grammar School? —Ecad, to a certain extent; in some cases not able to write. I may say that the lowest qualification in reading has been to read monosyllables.* * For " monosyllables " the witness desires to substitute " easy narrative."—Sec. E. Com.

Mr. J. F. Slomah.

Feb. 22,1879.

Mr. C. Robertson.

Feb. 22, 1879.

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2690. Professor Ulrich.] What are the drawbacks which you say you have observed as resulting from the combination of University education with school-work ?—To illustrate my meaning I will take the English department. For the most part, in our school, the work is such as a well-drilled or a fairly trained schoolmaster could do effectually and well; the classes are large, and the work is such that it requires a good teacher. Now, in order to secure an English master, it is necessary that he should be able to do the higher work in literature —he should know the structure and so on of the English language, as it is laid down and required by tho University ; and I think that the general teaching of that department has suffered, from the fact that it has been necessary to select young men who had little or no experience in teaching, but who, nevertheless, gave evidence that they had gone through a curriculum of higher work. That, I think, is very detrimental to the general teaching. On the whole, there are not more thau eight or ten boys out of a hundred who require this higher literary work. 2691. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] How many pupils have you in the lower school ? —This year, as nearly as possible, 120 in what is termed tho lower school. There are two classes in which there is nothing more than the elementary work taught, and no Latin. In the fourth class elementary Latin is taught. And this class, that is, the fourth class, is included in tho lower school. There are two classes with eighty-five or eighty-seven boys. There are about eighty boys who are simply learning the elementary work —reading, writing, spelling, geography, and history of an elementary kind. 2692. Did I understand you to say that there was a standard to which boys must attain before being admitted into the lower department ?—I can, of course, only speak as to what is done in my own class. I have already said that there is a standard prescribed, but that it is of a very general character, and, as it is not possible to follow it, it is not applied strictly. The standard, so far as it is prescribed, is simply that they should be able to do the four first rules of arithmetic. 2693. Does that enable you to receive pupils iv the Grammar School who otherwise would belong to a primary school ?—They are to all intents and purposes primary-school boys, and you cannot call them anything else. 2694. So that, strictly speaking, they could scarcely be admitted into a grammar school properly so called ? —They are not fit to begin higher w'ork —not fit for anything more than elementary work. 2695. Professor Cook.] I thiuk you said that sometimes you admitted boy Ts whose qualification in reading was that they could only read monosyllables ?—-I said that in reference to another remark I made, that I have to judge of the general capacity of the boy to learn. 2696. Then I suppose those boys who could only* read monosyllables knew nothing of arithmetic ? —In some cases they did. 2697. Could they do long division ?—No, not always. 2698. Can you remember, in the instances in which you have admitted boys to the school who could only read monosyllables, what they could do ill arithmetic ? —Probably they knew the multiplication table, and could do multiplication. 2699. And in writing ?—Very poor writers. Sometimes they can write well and cannot spell. 2700. But I want to confine your attention to those boys who could only read monosyllables. I want to know what their other qualifications were. Toil say that in arithmetic they probably knew the multiplication-table, and might do multiplication. Now, what would be the qualification of these same boys in writing?—l think very poor —any of those I can briug to memory at preseut. 2701. Then you admitted boys to the school whose qualifications were that they could write monosyllables, knew the multiplication-table, and could do multiplication, and whose writing was that of mere beginners ? —Tes. 2702. And they would probably* know nothing of geography or grammar ? —Nothing whatever. 2703. The Chairman.] What are the hours for opening and closing the school ?—lt opens at halfpast 9 in the morning, closes at half-past 12, opens again at 2, and closes at 4. 2704. Has it ever been the practice, as far as you have been concerned, to open at an earlier hour than half-past 9 for any special purpose ? —Not for my class. Some year or two ago some classes of the higher school opened at 9, but I cannot speak positively on the point. 2705. Is your tuition confined exclusively to the one set of boys throughout the whole of the day ?—Tes, entirely to one class. 2706. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it desirable that a grammar school should take charge of boys at the very early stage of their education which you have described ?—I do not think so myself. I think that the grammar-school work ought to be limited to higher work. That is my opinion generally as a teacher, and from my experience here. But I think, on the other hand, that, if a grammar school took elementary work at all, it ought to begin at the beginning, and take the very youngest, and not commence at an unknown stage, and thus render the junior work very unprofitable. 2707. The Chairman.] If you would wish to make any general remarks on education as it exists in Auckland, the Commission would bo glad to hear those remarks. —Since receiving notice to attend I wrote a short memorandum, containing some points which I conceive to be of general interest. The notes I have made are as follows : I have been eighteen years a trained teacher, and eight years in secondary schools. I should recommend a modification of elementary system, so as to allow of higher work being carried on alongside of the more elementary in the same school (required more especially for schools in thinly-peopled districts). Schools established for secondary education only should be limited to higher work, and ought, as a rule, to be self-supporting. Scholarships should be established on some general system, and not as relating to particular schools (successful competitors to select school they wish to attend). All endowments out of the public estate for secondary education ought to be thrown into a common fund, and some plan of general distribution established. All secondary schools ought to form a coherent part of a general Stale system, and be subject to periodical inspection under the authority of Minister. Appointments to secondary schools ought to be approved of by Minister ; dismissal on same basis. Masters iv secondary schools ought to be graded according to some general principle. Tho University, to be effective, ought to combine functions of examining body and teaching body; one

Mr. C. Robertson,

Feb. 22,1879.

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important function of teaching body should be the education of those who are to become teachers, whether of secondary or elementary schools. All teachers ought to know elementary physiology, and psychology, and moral science. Elementary science ought to be systematically taught, being better adapted to evolve and build up the natural powers of the mind at an earlier stage than literary subjects. History, as usually taught, is not a profitable subject for young pupils —as an educating means suitable for advanced pupils in higher classes only, in the form of lectures. In geography, as a rule, there is a great deal too much topography insisted on —crammed, to be forgotten. Elementary physical geography can be taught successfully and profitably to comparatively young pupils (developing intelligence). Grammar should form a part of reading lesson, and is not a suitable subject for systematic teaching to any but advanced pupils. (Should be imparted incidentally, or empirically, to young pupils.) Cost of higher education about £24 per annum in highest classes. The system of secondary education ought to be so regulated as not to exclude voluntary schools (on the general ground of liberty). None should be permitted to take charge of a school without a license or other authority from Minister (as in the case of surgeons, physicians, aud lawyers). Some provision ought to be made for evening classes for secondary education as a part of system. Classes should never exceed thirty. 2708. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the district high schools proposed by " The Education Act, 1877," would blend primary and secondary education in the way you desire?— No. 2709. Wherein does the scheme under the Act differ from a scheme of which you would approve ? —In this way: that it would hardly bo workable in a very large number of districts, and there would be a large number of children in those districts to whom it would fail to secure secondary education. 2710. Then I understand you would recommend the addition of some elements of secondary education to every primary-school course in couutry districts? —Tes. 2711. In fact, you would recommend an approximation to the Scottish parish school system ?— Something of that sort. 2712. When you say you think that tho holders of Government scholarships should be allowed to select their own school, do you think that any supervision would be necessary — any measure of guidance or control in assisting them in the selection?— Ido not think so. I base my opinion on this idea: that parents on the whole are pretty good judges of the schools in which they think their boys would get on best; and they might not wish always to send them to the one school. My remark on this point refers as much to the Board scholarships as to any others which may be given, either by the University or under any system which may be established. I think that scholarships should not bo given so that the pupil who obtains the scholarship should be compelled to attend a particular school— that it should be optional with him wdiat school in the colony he should attend. 2713. Professor Cook.] Unless, of course, the scholarship is given by that particular school ?— Tes. 2714. Bey. W. J. Habens.] To what source would you look for a supply of teachers for evening classes ?—I am not quite certain about that—whether it would not bo better to leave it to a voluntary source, such teachers coming either from the common schools or from the secondary schools ; any teachers who chose to volunteer. 2715. Do you think the expenditure of energy by a teacher over an evening class would subtract from his efficiency in tho ordinary work of his day school ? —I am compelled to admit that it must. 2716. Professor Ulrich.] You said that you were in favour of substituting elementary science for literary subjects in schools. Would you be in favour of extending that system a little more in grammar schools, and of having in the highest class two divisions —the one going in for more technical education, and the other, perhaps, for arts ? —Yes ; I am quite iv favour of that in a secondary school. In training for a schoolmaster, 1 had, myself, to pass in chemistry ; and I have since experienced the advantage of having gone through that course. I have becu able to give elementary lessons in science, and I have always found it a profitable subject to teach, as being better adapted thau literary subjects for developing the mental powers, even with very young pupils. Mr. George Newell Phillips was sworn and examined. 2717. The Chairman.] Do you hold any public position iv educational matters at the Thames ?— I am tho headmaster of the Kauaeranga Boys' School. 2718. How many pupils attend that school ?—We have 430 on the roll. 2719. How long have you held the position of head teacher? —Two years. 2720. Has anything been done yet at the Thames with the view of establishing a high school under the Act of last session ? —Thc Board of Governors, I believe, have held one meeting. 2721. You think there would be sufficient pupils to warrant the establishment of the school? —I think so. It is understood that it is to be for both sexes, and we have about 1,100 children on the rolls of the Government schools. There is also in existence a private school, called St. George's Grammar School, which was, I believe, two or three years ago very numerously attended; but the numbers have declined since owing to the erection of my new school in the vicinity, and the consequent transfer of a great many of the scholars from it. But I believe there are about thirty pupils now attending tho St. George's School. Then there is what is called a superior school attached to the convent, which has been largely taken advantage of by girls not belonging to the Catholic Church. 2722. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that, from the population resident at the Thames, any considerable number of students for a collegiate institution, as distinct from a grammar school, would at any time be sent to Auckland ?—I think there would be, eventually. The place is in an exceptionally depressed condition now, but I thiuk, if we look a little ahead, there can be no doubt of it. There will be a considerable population, it is to bo hoped, in the Thames Valley, in a very few years. 2723. The Chairman.] Has anything been done under the Act of last year ? —I understood from the Chairman of the School Board that he had received a communication from the Government to the effect that the endowment could not be handed over at present, or for some time to come. I supposo it is part of the lands that have only just come under the control of the Government, or perhaps not yet completely so, in the Thames Valley. 17-H. 1.

, Mr. C. Robertson. I , Feb. 22,1879.

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2724. And, as far as you know, there is not an immediate prospect of establishing the school ?— There is no immediate prospect whatever, I understand. They have no funds. I might mention, perhaps, that there was so strong a feeling, about three years back, among the inhabitants of the Thames, in reference to getting the means of a more advanced education, especially for girls—for, although a great many people avail themselves of the Convent School, yet there will always be a large number who will object to send their children to a strictly denominational school—that a subscription was raised, and a plan formed for setting a school on foot. The movement did not come to anything, but there was about £100 subscribed for the purpose, which is still iv the bank; and there have been some communications between the Board of Governors and the managers of this fund, as to whether the latter would be willing to hand it over for the purposes of the proposed high school; but nothing has yet been decided. 2725. Bey. W. J. Habens^] Do you think that any advantage would arise from the temporary establishment, in your neighbourhood, of a district high school under the Act ? —Yes, I think so. If such an institution were opened, I think a considerable number of people would send their children there at once. One of the district schools could be temporarily erected into a district high school, under the Act. That is only my own opinion. Perhaps I might say that ever since I have been at the Thames I have been holding classes by permission of the Auckland Board of Education and the local committee. They grant me the use of the school, and I hold classes for elementary Latin, French, Euclid, and algebra, out of the ordinary school hours. But I need hardly say that the time given is very short, and therefore the teaching is very elementary: still, the classes have been in operation for two years. I have about twenty-five pupils, and have no doubt all those lads would attend a high school. I believe they would be sent; and that, if the high school were started, it would close the school I spoke of as St. George's, and there would be a large proportion of girls from the Convent School. 2726. Professor Sale.] The memorial which you have presented to the Commission states that the inhabitants of the Thames District are in favour of the establishment of a college in Auckland devoted to giving higher or University education. We have had several witnesses before us who propose that such an institution should really form part of, or perhaps eventually grow out of, the present Auckland College and Grammar School. Are you in favour of such an institution as that ?—No ; my instructions are not to speak in favour of that. 2727. You wish for a separate institution, to which scholars from all sorts of grammar schools •could be removed for higher instruction?— Yes; in which a complete course of instruction could be given, such as would enable them to obtain the degrees of the University of New Zealand. A college with a staff of professors, similar to Canterbury College, is what the Thames peoplo are thinking of— unattached to any grammar school. 2728. Professor Cook.] And such a college as the pupils of the Auckland Grammar School would leave their school to attend ?—Exactly. 2729. If one of the schools at the Thames were temporarily converted into a district high school, as suggested, do you not think the effect might be to impede the establishment of the Thames Girls' and Boys' High School, as provided for by the Act of last session? —I hardly think so, if care were taken to make it thoroughly well known that it was a temporary expedient, and that no permanent appointments would bo made. 2730. And you think the inhabitants of the Thames would be satisfied that such an expedient should bo resorted to? You think they would not feel that it would have the effect of injuring the prospects of establishing a permanent school ? —As far as I can judge, if it were made clear to the public, and they thoroughly understood that, owing to the difficulty about the endowment, the new high school could not be immediately built, a staff' appointed, and everything set going, I think they would be very glad to accept some such expedient as that. 2731. The Chairman.] Are you, as one engaged in scholastic matters, in favour of the attempt to blend grammar-school and University education in the one establishment ? —No, I am not. 2732. Are you aware that that attempt has been made in the Grammar School in Auckland ?—I have understood so. 2733. Professor Ulrich.] Tho Commission understood that there were normal classes established at the Thames : do you know anything about them ? —There is one which has been in operation, 1 think, for about three years. I should tell you that tho regulations under the Auckland Board are not yet published, and therefore I cannot speak with certainty on this point; but I understand that this class is to come to an end in March, the close of the present quarter ; and that teachers at the Thames, at any rate, are to be answerable for the passing of their own pupil-teachers, as used to be the case in Canterbury. 2734. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know whether the so-called training classes at the Thames were anything more than classes for the instruction of younger teachers in the ordinary subjects of their education ? —Only for that, I think. 2735. There was no technical instruction in the art of teaching?— None whatever. We are supposed to give that as far as we can, but from various causes it has been impossible to keep the staff of our school up to such a point as would enable us to give much of such teaching. For a time, personally, I had a sufficient staff to relieve me from being obliged to take charge of the senior class, but that is not the case now. 2736. Professor Ulrich.] I understood you to say that besides early morning classes you had occasional evening classes ?—I have an evening class of about thirty. 2737. What do you teach there? Is the education more of a technical or scientific character, and of a character to be useful to the miuers ? —lt is rather a composite arrangement. I have a few lads who have passed the Civil Service examination and so on, taking algebra, mensuration, and Latin, and three in elementary Greek ; and then I have nine candidates for the pupil-teachers' examination in March, who are just preparing in Standard sof tho primary-school cou.Ke. Then I have others who are just following behind —working themselves up in arithmetic and so on. The great difficulty about the school is that there are so many stages—it takes up so much time. Myself and the second master conduct it between us.

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2738. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I understand that your expression of opinion in favour of a district high school, as a temporary expedient, is to be regarded Bimply as your personal view?—-Yes. 2739. Supposing such a district high school to be established, which do you think would bo the best building for tho purpose ?—The school, called the Thames School, which ia now being erected to replace an old school. It will be capable of accommodating five hundred children, and is being built very much on the model of Mr. Worthingtou's school in Wellesley Street. It would be much more suitable than cither my school or the Tararu school, which consists of one long room. 2740. The Chairman.] I understand your opinion is, that it is only as a temporary expedient that the grammar-school and primary-school education should be given under the one roof?— Certainly, and that it should be clearly made known that such is the case. If I thought it would interfere in any way with the establishment of the high school I should be very sorry to advocate it; but it is only because it is the best that can be done under the circumstances. Archdeacon Maunsell, LL.D., was sworn and examined. 2741. The Chairman.] I think you are a graduate of Trinity College, Dublin?—Tes. 2742. And you have been settled in New Zealand for a great number of years ? —For forty-four years. 2743. The Commission would bo glad of your opinion upon the point as to whether students of the University of New Zealand should be allowed to pass the prescribed examination without attending lectures at the colleges ? —I am inclined to be in favour of the system which obtains at Trinity College, Dublin, where the student is not required to attend lectures at the college. 2744. Have you formed any general opinion as to whether tho present system of University education in New Zealand is sufficient ?—No, I have not. I have not studied the question of University education in New Zealand at all; but, from the little experience I have had in examining some of the students, I have felt that it would be desirable that the examination should be conducted by the University and not by the college. 2745. Professor Cook.] What examinations do you refer to ?—Those of tho undergraduates who are examined by the college once a year. 2746. Do you think the annual college examination and matriculation examination should be in the hands of the University ?—I think so. 2747. The Chairman.] Tou are probably aware that at present there is an attempt to combine University education and grammar-school education in the one establishment iv this city ?—Yes; I suppose you refer to the Auckland College and Grammar School. 2748. Do you think it is a satisfactory system to combine those two branches of education in the one building and under the one staff of masters?—Tes, I think so. 2749. What I want to lead up to is, whether there ought not to be established in the City of Auckland a college superior to the Grammar School, and giving tho same education as is given in Canterbury College and the University of Otago ? —Tes ; that is a point I feel very strongly upon, and I have thought a good deal over the question. I think the present system in Auckland is bad. They sweep into the institution little children without any previous examination or qualification, and it cau be shown that these children absorb a large portion of the funds of the College. That is what I object to—their absorbing a large portion of the funds of the College, which takes them at too cheap a rate, and thus becomes a rival to the other schools in the neighbourhood, and extinguishes those schools and keeps them down. 2750. Are you of opinion, as far as you can judge, that elementary education is given to too great an extent in the Auckland College and Grammar School—that too much attention is devoted to that branch ? —Tes; I think that, being an institution supported by public funds and endowments, it ought not to bestow so much attention upon mere elementary education. 2751. I think you have stated that, as a matter of fact, the Auckland College and Grammar School swamps private schools on account of the low rate of the fees charged ? —Tes; the whole course they have pursued has been unworthy of them. They first of all establish an institution ; they take a gentleman—a man who distinguished himself as a scholar and a thinker, and who had a flourishing school —they take him into the school first of all as Principal, and then make him become a second master ; then, after they have got him in aud extinguished his school, they turn him out. They do the same with the master of another flourishing school iv Hobson Street; they get him into their college, extinguish his school, and then turn him out. Since that time there hasjieen no revival of the school system here, and the system now in operation I consider to be a depressing power upon education generally. 2752. Did any school survive the depressing effect you speak of?— Our grammar school at Parnell has survived and prospered. It is a Church school, and is assisted in other ways. But a private school, now, has very little chance of rising and prospering as long as this grammar school exists to keep it down. They are now establishing a monopoly of education, and are keeping down education in Auckland by means of this grammar school. 2753. Professor Sale.] I understand, then, that you think, if it were not for tho great proportion of elementary education given at the Auckland Grammar School, the combination of University work and school work iv tho same institution would not be objectionable?— Not at all. 2754. Tou are aware that, in the University scheme, students have to prepare themselves, or may prepare themselves, for honour examinations and for the degree of M.A.: do you think that that work could be done in a school whose main object was to give grammar-school education ? —I do not see why it should not. 2755. Do you think it could be done in other grammar schools besides tho Auckland College and Grammar School ? —lf they had money to appoint masters, of course it could. 2756. We had it in evidence this morning that the people of the Thames District are anxious to have a high school established. Do you think it likely that they will be able to give a University

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Feb. 22,1879.

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education in their high school, if they have one?—lt all depends upon the endowments —whether they are wealthy or not. 2757. Looking at the probable case, do you think it is likely they will ever be able to train candidates for all the University examinations ? —Tho Thames seems to be going down, and the population not to be increasing, so that they may not be able to maintain an institution of sufficient power to do so. 2758. Well, being unable, do you think they would bo willing to transfer their more promising students who wish to get University training to other schools which were able ? —The students themselves would not ask their consent; they would come. 2759. And the people generally in the Thames District would not object to that?—No ; I think they would go wherever they would get the best supply. 2760. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Supposing an institution were established in Auckland for the purpose of giving University education, how many do you think would avail themselves of it ? —I think that is a very important question. First of all, I may say that what I contemplate with regard to a collegiate institution here is, that there should be a head establishment—a kind of head and friend, over all the educational establishments in the province ; not rivalling them or crushing them, but helping and fostering them. Two difficulties will then arise with regard to the establishment —first, will you get scholars sufficient ? and, second, will you find sufficient employment for men who are paid large salaries ? Those are the two great difficulties in the case. In Sydney, for many years, it has been fouud that they cannot get a proper number of young men to go to the University. Even at the present time lam informed they have ouly got sixty students at the University. At any rate, as long as you make the main object of the institution to be preparation for degrees, I do not think you will get many here. If you want to get scholars, and to have your institution properly suited to the students you want to teach, you must consider the condition, prospects, and future employments of the young men; the various works they will be engaged in—mining, engineering, navigation, and so on — and you should largely devote your institution to these subjects. Of University men you will not get any number at present. 2761. By University men you mean simply students who are going through the Arts course ? —Tes, going to the University. I may say that, talking to my friend Mr. Mulgan about these matters the other night, and under the impression that I was not going to be examined, I thought it better to put down my ideas in writing, and, if you will allow me, I will read the letter which embodies the ideas I have given expression to, and perhaps puts them in a clearer form. It is as follows : — " Parnell, 21st February, 1879. " My dear Mulgan,—ln reference to our conversation, I beg leave to submit in writing to you my views as to the position which a high school, maintained by the Government, should occupy amongst us. I wrote to Sir George Grey some time ago on the subject, and he replied that your Commission would sit in course of time, and that my evidence would be taken before it. I could not, as you are aware, wait to be examined, and this liters scripta is, I consider, better than a statement iv words. In establishing that institution you should, I consider, bear in mind the future employments of our young men. If you meet their wants you will solve one great difficulty that we considered —namely, is there any chauce of getting a sufficient number of students? Very few go to the learned professions. Tho lawyer is satisfied with a small amount of Latin and less Greek. Tho wants of candidates for tho ministry will be supplied at the theological college. "In this new and rising colony the knowledge most desiderated is geology, engineering, hydrostatics, surveying, mechanics, agriculture, book-keeping. Few, perhaps, will go deep into the the ultimate principles of these branches, but these are the baits by which you will draw our young men. Tou propose lectures on law and medicine. I add, on history, and also what is called technical training, navigation, astronomy, chemistry, logic, rhetoric, English composition. Tour building, therefore, should be so arranged as to meet those requirements—lecture-rooms, with a library, and other rooms supplied with the apparatus necessary for the subject of the lecture. " All these cannot be done at once, but the plan should be so laid as to admit of additions as the need may arise. " The Government, I submit, should consider which branches are likely to be most popular, and begin with them. For a long time the medical department was the maiu department in the London University. "2. Tho College should promote and help the work of education in the province by supplying examiners, giving prizes to schools, aud, particularly, scholarships. "At present it is a rival, seeking to extinguish ; sweeping children of all ages and all degrees of knowledge into its net; 'underselling' the other schools, and seeking to establish a Government monopoly of education. " 3. It should prepare for the University, aud should only admit as students scholars of a certain age, and who have passed a certain examination. "4. It should prepare for Civil Service examinations. " I would beg most earnestly to protest against the way in which the Grammar School Board propose spending the Government grant. They propose, I believe, to build a boarding-school. You can imagine tho number of et-ceteras that this will involve. The men do not seem able to rise above the level of a common grammar school. It is not so much a grammar school we want, or a boardingschool, as a school which will befriend and help the various schools in the province. It is not a boarding-school wo need, but rather those lecture-rooms and all those appliances that are needful for a higher education. " The £2,000 which, I believe, they get annually from endowmeuls would, with the fees, go far to meet the wants of the institution in the way of salaries, prizes, and contingencies. " I am very anxious to see a helping hand stretched forth to the other schools of this province. " I have, &c, " E. Maunsell,

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" Objections to proposed boarding-school: 1. These not the proper work of the Government in the matter of education, and are better done by individuals or Churches {e.g., Sydney). 2. AVill absorb funds that ought to be employed in fostering education in the province." 2762. The Chairman.] Having expressed so strongly your objection to a boarding-school, would you state what provision ought to be made for the children of parents residing in remote parts of the country, the parents being desirous of giving them a grammar-school education ? —There would be two courses to adopt. One would be —as they have done in Sydney —for the Churches themselves to establish boarding-schools, and receive their young men into their own institutions ; and the other—as I believe they do in Eton—to have certain boarding-houses recognized and kept under the control of the master of the institution. 2763. Professor Cook.] Then you think the masters ought to provide their own boarding-houses ? —Tes. 2761. The Chairman.] What opportunity have country settlors of availing themselves of the present grammar school in Auckland ? —They send their children in aud they board at private houses; a large number of them board in Parnell. 2765. And do you approve of their being boarded in private houses, scattered all over the place, rather than having them together under the control of the master ?—I would much rather that there were establishments for them under some kind of control and inspection, which would afford a guarantee to the parents of the character of the boardiiig-houscs. But we have never heard any complaint at Parnell about the young men who are boarding in private houses, and who are in twos and threes in different places. 2766. Professor Ulrich.] With reference to your ideas with regard to technical education, do you think technical education should only take the shape of a kind of rudimentary science in connection with the grammar school; or are you in favour of the establishment of faculties —such as the School of Mines —as they exist in Germany ? —My ideas have not assumed any definite shape in these matters. I think you should begiu simply, and work up to a higher elevation. My idea is that the Government can only use largely such teachers as are found on the spot. Of course, these men cannot be equal to the professors at Home. The Government might give them a certain small allowance for lecturing iv the building which would be erected. For example, the Government now have a teacher of navigation here. Ido not see why that teacher of navigation should not become part of this college, and lecture there upon navigation. Then there is another eminent man here —an engineer; I think the Government might employ that gentleman, at a small salary, to give lectures in engineering. All these subjects should be taught in the institution. 2767. I suppose you have read Matthew Arnold's report on the institutions iv Germany, France, and Italy ? —I have read large extracts from it, and read reports of Mr. Pattison about it. 2768. Tou have probably read there that, in what in Germany are called the gymnasien, which corresponds with our Grammar School, tho highest secondary school hero, there is a division of the upper branches into the humaniora, or Faculty of Arts, and the rcalia, the technical faculties. Is it your opinion that a similar division would bo applicable here, by which more science would be taught ? —At present we are very unformed here, and must walk before we attempt to run. I would strongly recommend very cautious proceedings in the beginning —wo should be simple and unpretentious. The German system and the English system are of course very good for those highly advanced nations ; but I am not quite sure that you could have such systems here, particularly in this part of tho colony. 2769. But would not the system I have referred to, of having a division of the upper branches, with teachers of drawing, physical science, chemistry, aud so on, be much cheaper than regular schools of mines, agricultural colleges, &c, which would require a staff of professors ? Would that be your opinion ?—Tes. That the school should teach in its higher forms the various subjects required by the young men. 2770. Professor Sale.] And you would select the Auckland College aud Grammar School as a suitable institution for these purposes, because it is now in existence and has a sufficient endowment ?— Tes. The Government are bound to do something ; they are bound to stand at the head of education and help in this work. It is more their duty to do that than to establish boarding-schools. 2771. But the institution which you propose is something totally different from the Grammar School as it now exists ?—Tes. 2772. And, excepting for the matter of endowments, it might be a totally separate institution from the Grammar School?— Nearly so. Some of the branches would be retained ; the Greek, Latin, and mathematics, I suppose, would be retained. 2773. Then, if you made use of the Auckland College endowments, and turned the Auckland College into such an institution, your first step would be to do away with all elementary education in the school ?—Yes. 2774. To do away in fact with the lower half of the school ?—Yes ; more than the lower half. They have 130 in the lower class; I would do away with all that. 2775. And even more than that ? —All the others would have to pass a certain examination before admission to the school. 2776. Would you look at what is prescribed in the University Calendar for the matriculation examination? The students make a selection. Three of tho subjects —namely, Latin, English and mathematics —are compulsory, and there are three others which they can choose. Would such an examination as that be the sort of entrance examination which you would propose for this institution? —I think so. 2777. Then, in reality, this institution would be converted into an institution providing the higher grammar-school education, University education, and technical training in various subjects?— Yes. 2778. Bey. W. E. Mulgan^] In reference to the residence of young men during their attendance at college, would you approve of tho system adopted in connection with tho Queen's College, Belfast ? There there are licensed houses for the purpose : certain persons in the town apply to the authorities of the College, stating that they are willing to receive as boarders young men attending the College.

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These persons are examined into, and, if approved of as persons who would exercise a sufficient supervision, in the opinion of the heads of the College, their houses are licensed and the students live in them ; and a member of the Board is appointed, who occasionally visits the different houses. Do you think that system would work here ?—I think it would work very well. I think that as soon as you establish a head iustitutiou of this kind all these subordinate appliances will grow up as a matter of course. 2778. Do you think that young people being sent up from the country, and residing in these licensed houses, would be equivalent to residence in a boarding-house, under the direct superintendence of a master ? —I do, as far as my experience goes. 2780. Professor Cook.] Supposing the lower department, and, perhaps, a portion of the upper department, of the Auckland Grammar School were done away with, do you think its endowments would be sufficient to enable it to carry out the work of an iustitutiou such as you propose ? Would it be able to pay the class of men who would be necessary for carrying on successfully the work of tuition ?—The endowments, so far as I can make out from the newspaper statements—l have not seen the reports—amount to a little above £2,000 a year, exclusive of fees, which amount to £1,000,1 thiuk, and of course the endowments will improve in value as time goes on. Besides, my plan would not contemplate getting out a number of professors; but I would suggest that there should be appointed, say for Greek, Latin, and mathematics, two distinct professors. 2781. Where would these come from ? —Wherever it is thought best —I suppose from England. 2782. You would get two men —one for classics, and one for mathematics —from England?—Tes. Then I was thinking that, for the other branches I was speaking of, we might get gentlemen who would be living iv Auckland, or who might bo induced to come to Auckland and reside, with the prospect of getting their labours here supplemented by the Government: for example, you might have the Government Analyst here, who would teach chemistry, and so on. 2783. I do not see wherein that differs very much from the arrangement at the Sydney University ? —I think you must have one or two professors as a nucleus; the other teachers you can bring in from outside. 2784. In fact, you want a small number of highly-trained men, such as you would not be likely to get in the colony, as a nucleus, and you would supplement their teaching by lecturers, who would be procured in the colony ?—Exactly. These men would be of great service here. For instance, an analyst would be of great service in the town, and he might get £100 a year for lecturing; and so with regard to other branches. 2785. Are you acquainted with the constitution of the Otago University and the Canterbury College ?—No. The Eev. E. Kidd, LL.D., was sworn and examined. 2786. The Chairman.] Tou are a graduate, I thiuk, of Trinity College, Dublin ?—Tes. 2787. And you have had experience in education iv this province ? —Tes, and at Home. 2788. Would you state briefly what your experience as a teacher has been ? —ln Dublin I assisted students in preparing for University examinations. I was for some years classical master of the senior classes in Mr. Homan's school, near Dublin. Afterwards, I was partner in what was called the Collegiate School, Belfast. Iv this colony, I have been taking pupils for a great many years. I had a school of my own for some years, which I discontinued on the establishment of the Auckland Grammar School. I was for a time headmaster of the Auckland Grammar School, in its early stage, aud subsequently classical master in the present College and Grammar School. Since that time I have been taking pupils privately, and am also connected with the Wesley College, Three Kings. 2789. From your scholastic knowledge are you of opinion that the present system of secondary and University education in this part of the colony is satisfactory?—l cannot say that I am. 2790. Are you satisfied with the present system, whereby it is attempted to blend grammarschool education aud University education in the one building, and under one staff of teachers ?—I must say, decidedly, "No," to that question. 2791. Has it ever occurred to you what ought to be done to give a proper University education in this part of the colony, as distinct from grammar-school education ?—I have formed the opinion that it would be expedient to use the funds of the Auckland College and Grammar School endowment for a real University college, having high-class professors; taking in, of course, the old branches, classics, mathematics, &c, and adding modern science—say, four high-class professors. lam of opinion that after a time this would be of great service to this part of the colony; and I consider, as to the school education, that for this purpose a much less subvention of endowment funds would suffice. 2791 a. Do I understand that you would go to the length of abolishing the Grammar School as an institution supported by public endowments ? —No; but I think that a good grammar school might be almost self-supporting. Before the opening of the provincial Grammar School there were good schools here which were altogether self-supporting. While I was headmaster of the Auckland Grammar School —only a year or so —it was self-supporting, or very nearly so, although the building in which the school was conducted was unsuitable. There was no fire iv the schoolrooms, and they were not weather-tight. 2792. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] What boys were admitted into the school in your time ? What degree of proficiency had they to attain before being admitted?—l am not aware of any change having been made in the rule. I thiuk the minimum ago was nine years, and some rudimentary knowledge in arithmetic was required, as well as reading and writing. 2792 a. There was no particular staudard ?—There was no defined standard, further than I have mentioned. 2793. Tou said the school in your time was self-supporting: had it two departments ?—There was no distinction then. It was not called a College and Grammar School; it was called the Auckland Grammar School. 2794. Was there a great preponderance of those who had just entered, as it were —those in the lower classes ?—No, not a preponderance.

Archdeacon Maunsell.

Feb. 22, 1879.

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2795. Merely a fair proportion?—ln fact the private school of which I had been owner was a much larger school, and the pupils of the Grammar School were composed chiefly of young people coming from that school. 2790. Professor Cook.] Then, if a college were established here, such as the one to which you have referred, you think a considerable portion of the present endowment of the Auckland College and Grammar School might be applicable to that purpose ?—That is my impression—that that would be, or would have been, a more desirable appropriation of the funds. I judge so partly from these circumstances : that there are young men engaged during the day who would be glad to get higher education ; that there is an opening here for University classes, and that the plan has never had a fair trial. I reside three miles from town, and eight young men come to me for evening lessons. That Beems to me an indication that, if well-organized classes were established in town, young men would avail themselves of it. I know* several who would come to me but for the distance being too great. 2797. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Are these young men preparing for the University?— Three have matriculated, but there are others who are preparing—who are reading with a view to entrance upon a University course. One or two others have discontinued because the distance was too great. 2798. Have these pupils come to you from a distance of three miles? —I live three miles from town, and they come from different parts of the town, or its neighbourhood. Two of them come from Parnell, and they are the nearest. 2799. And you think a great many more -yould attend such classes as yours for preparing young men for University education if there were facilities given to them to attend in town ? —lt seems to me only reasonable to infer that such would be the case. Ido not advertise in any way. 2800. The Chairman.] Does the present Grammar School afford proper facilities for country settlers getting their children educated at the school ?—I am not aware that there is at present any boarding establishment connected with the Grammar School. 2801. Do you think it would be advisable to have a boarding establishment so as to enable country settlers to send their children to the school ?—I should think so. When I closed my school I had twenty boarders, and every week fresh applications were coming in. At present lam not personally acquainted with what is done, but I suppose the boys from the country are at lodgings in the city and neighbourhood. 2502. Do you not thiuk that these boys ought to be under the control of the master, rather than be scattered about in different parts of the town in private lodgings ? —I am decidedly of that opinion. 2803. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the present University of New Zealand meets the requirements of the colony as a University ?—I should not like to give an opinion upon a question so wide as that. lam firmly of opinion that its establishment and its operations have been and are very useful; but as to wdiether anything better could be substituted I would rather not take upon myself to pronounce a judgment. 2804. Have you any knowledge of the Queen's University in Ireland? —Tes. 2805. And its different colleges ?—Tes ; I was offered many years ago a professorship in one of them, which I was obliged to decline on the score of health, and at that time I made myself well acquainted with them. 2806. Have you ever reflected whether such a system might be beneficially introduced into this colony—namely, a University with colleges in the large centres of population ?—I should be disposed to consider that the present system is a sort of representative of that—the University haying its affiliated teaching institutions and a central Senate. The Otago University, the Canterbury College, the Auckland College, aud the others are colleges of tho New Zealand University. 2807. But, as far as you know, is the Auckland College and Grammar School conferring that class of education which a collegiate institution affiliated to the University should be giving?—l am compelled to say that, in my opinion, it certaiuly is not. The Queen's Colleges with their professors do real University work, and the Convocation and the coming together of the students do in some measuro realize the advantages of a large University. 2808. Quite distinct from mere grammar-school work ? —Oh, yes. 2809. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the University of New Zealand has acted wisely in affiliating institutions which cannot do work above grammar-school work ?—No ;if they affiliate institutions that cannot go above grammar-school work I should say that is not wise. lam under the impression that the institutions affiliated profess or are considered to be capable of going boyond grammarschool work. 2810. The Chairman.] Are there any general remarks you would like to make ?—I was asked about tho University. This is a very small matter, but I think it is a mistake for the University to make Greek altogether an optional subject. lam of opinion that in tho compulsory subjects should be included a portion of Greek —not that it should be necessary to read Greek plays, and get up that kind of work ; but so that a man could use his Greek dictionary, aud also know the etymology of the English language more thoroughly. lam also inclined to think that the Civil Service examinations and the preliminary law examinations ought to be connected with the University. I think it would be advantageous for the matriculation examination to be conducted by the University, and not by the local institutions; and so it might probably take the place of the Civil Service examination. 2811. Are you conversant with the present matriculation examination ?—I am acquainted with the regulations on the subject. 2812. Do you think it is sufficient or insufficient?— The matriculation examinations throughout the colony are not uniform, and they furnish no public certificate of a certain grade of attainment. In fact, my impression has been that the only practical restriction on the local bodies is that, if matriculated students are not likely to persevere and succeed in the University examinations, the results would be likely to bring discredit on the bodies admitting them.

Sev. S. Kidd.

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Monday, 24th February, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Dr. Wallis. Mr. Williah Aitken was sworn and examined. 2813. The Chairman.] Tou are a land agent?—Tes, and I have followed that pursuit for twenty-three years. 2814. Under instructions given you by the Commission you have made a valuation of certain properties ? —Tes. 2815. Professor Cook.] Supposing these properties were put into the market at the present time, what would they be worth? —In my report I have given the present selling value. In fact, Ido not take into account the prospective value at all. 2816. How* much do you think ought fairly to be realized from these reserves —how much per cent. —let as they are now? They are let principally for agricultural purposes? —I have taken both into consideration ; the properties, being in close contiguity to the city, have two values. 2817. But I am speaking of the annual rental which,they might be made to yield? —The annual rental will not return an amount equivalent to the interest on the value I have estimated them at. Tho properties in the list are of three descriptions. The St. Stephen's property, for instance, is solely and purely a property deriving a rental for building purposes. The property at the Three Kings would bo partly adapted for agricultural purposes and partly for building purposes —sites for suburban residences. The suburbs of the city are rapidly extending in the direction of the Three Kings: in fact, there are houses on tho way to that property at intervals, the longest interval I should say not being more than a third of a mile ; and within the last year a very large number of houses have been erected within two miles of the iustitutiou. Another thing which gives that property an increased value, beyond its marketable value for farming purposes, is the fact that the Mount Albert railway station will be within one and a quarter miles of the most inferior description of the land. Otherwise, the larger portion of the property would not have been worth within 50 per cent, of the valuation I have attached to it. But, believing that what the Commission wanted to get was not a report of wdiat might be, or what has been, but of what is at the present time, I have given you, as fairly as I could represent it, the value which I conscientiously believe that property would realize if placed in the market to-morrow. 2818. Having regard to these institutions as educational institutions, do you think it would be a good thing to put these properties into the market and sell them, aud invest the money with the view of getting a greater income ? or do you think the prospects of Auckland are such that, in the interests of tho institutions, it would be better to hold on to these estates, even although they return a comparatively small rental now ?—As the question involves a matter of opinion, I will give you a reason why I hold the opinion I do. If you have had an opportunity of judging of the district of Auckland, and of observing its situation, you must have come to this conclusion : that it is a mere handful of land, a very narrow isthmus extending across from one sea to the other. The progress which the place has made within the last five or six years has been of such a character as to warrant me in saying that the whole of the lands situated between the Manukau harbour aud the Auckland harbour must within a very few years be utilized for purposes other than those for which they are used at present. That is to say, you will find that people who are residing in the town at present will want to get a little further out, that they may keep a cow, enjoy the advantage of purer air and exercise, or something of that kind; and they will go out and take four, five, or six acres of land, and build upon it. Well, land of that character, instead of yielding a rental of 10s. or £1 an acre, will bring some £3, £4, or £5 an acre, according to the situation and quality. So that I anticipate that iv a very few years the whole of these lands will be very much increased in value, from tho circumstances which I have mentioned. I have been a land agent here for twenty-three years, and have been in the province about twenty-five years altogether, and I know that the progress of tbese lands has been exceedingly slow until within the last few years: so that, in answer to the question, I have, with the explanation I have made, to say it would be an unfortunate circumstance to dispose of these estates and sell the freehold at the present time. I would wish to remark further, in reference to the property at the North Shore, that the value which I have attached to that estate might be considered more than it is in reality worth at the present time; but the same remarks which I have made in relation to the Three Kings apply also to that property. Lauds within a very short distance of the property, held by the Eoman Catholic Mission, have been selling as low as £1 an acre ; but, at the same time, I only think it right to tell you that as this property possesses a considerable extent of water frontage, and that, as land at Stokes Point, inland of the sea-board, has been lately selling at from £15 to £30 per acre, —rather more accessible land with regard to the back country, —I thiuk I was justified in attaching some importance to the fact that it would be sooner or later required for building purposes ; and on that account I valued it at more than it is really worth for agricultural purposes at tho present time. 2819. Bey. W. J. Habens.] The present rental of these 376 acres, forming tho St. Mary's estate at the North Shore, is about £40 a year: do you think that is a fair return? —No; it is not. In my experience, I have not found property in the possession of either private individuals or public bodies that has been worse looked after than that property has. I will not use too strong language, but it is not as it ought to be. 2820. Professor Cook.] Is there stone on the North Shore property that might be used for building purposes, and which would add value to the land ? —lt might be utilized; but, when you take into consideration that Shoal Bay is a shallow harbour, and only navigable at high tides, I question whether the quarry could be utilized to advantage. There is similar stone all rouud Auckland. 2821. What rental do you think the piece of land of 227 acres, facing the Manukau Harbour, aud being part of the Three Kings estate, ought to fetch if the tenant undertook to fence it?—l should say it was worth from £10 to £20 year.

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2822. The Chairman.] If that particular block were put up for sale, what do you think it w rould realize per acre at the present moment? —The land is very broken in character, and would only be suitable for being cut up into small sections. If you were going to utilize if, and make it return the largest amount of money, the value I should attach to it would bo from £3 to £4 per acre. The Eev. E. Kidd, LL.D., was re-examined. 2823. The Chairman.] I understand that you wish to explain some evidence given by you when previously under examination. If you would state the question and the modification you wish to make, your remarks will be recorded. —The question I forget, but the answer was that a middle-class school in Auckland, under efficient superintendence, ought to be nearly self-supporting. That answer did not, perhaps, express with sufficient distinctness the meaning that I wished to convey. The work of education in general may be distinguished into three portions : First, the education of the poorest sections of society ; secondly, the primary and intermediate education of other sections ; and, thirdly, University education. Of these three portions, the first and third appear to be practically dependent on State aid or on endowment —the first, because of the poverty of the recipients; the other, both because there may be desirable students not in circumstances of affluence, and also because, in any case, the number of University students is comparatively small, while the teaching and examining staff suitable for this grade of education is necessarily of such a kind as to require a larger amount of expenditure than the aggregate of such students can be reasonably expected to defray. As to schools of secondary education, on the other hand, the case is different, and the support of such schools is found to be tolerably well provided for by the operation of private demand and supply where other resources are absent. If, indeed, after due provision being made for the education of the poor, and also for University education, there are, moreover, means available for subvention to secondary schools, such grants, being well administered, will probably be, on the whole, beneficial, notwithstanding the drawback that the competition of private enterprise is apt to be thereby extinguished. But if a given endowment for education other than primary be inadequate, both to supply University instruction of the best kind, and also to support education of the middle grade, in such a case I consider that the first requisite is to provide adequately for tho high-class education. I have assumed in these remarks that the institution of bond fide University education is an object of public importance to the whole community, so that it is right and expedient that public funds or endowments should be appropriated to the securing of that object. This assumption, I suppose, would be disputed by few; and, at all events, it is not necessary for me hero to specify the grounds on which it is based. It was with reference to these considerations that I expressed the opinion, in answer to a question, that in certain circumstances a middle-grade school ought to be nearly self-supporting. I did not answer quite to my own satisfaction on another subject —namely, the reasons for anticipating that there w-ould be an increase in the number of University students in Auckland. I merely wish to say that I think the recent regulations with reference to teachers of Government primary schools, which I admire very highly, tend to bring an increase to the number of University students. I find that the best portion of the teachers, especially the younger ones, have begun to study with reference to the University since these regulations were promulgated. I may mention that, of the young men who come to me for private instruction, half the number are teachers in Government schools. Mr. D. A. Tole further examined. 2824. The Chairman.] Will you be so good as to look again at the plan of the Three Kings estate, and say if it is correct ?—I see that one part which the draughtsman ought to have tinted is left plain. I will have it altered.

Mr. W. Aitken. Feb. 24, 1879. '

Rev. R. Kidd. Feb. 24, 1879.

Mr. D. A. Tole. Feb. 24,1879.

Nelson, Monday, 31st March, 1879. Present : Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Sale, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Shand. The Eight Eev. A. B. Suter, D.D., Bishop of Nelson, was sworn and examined. 2825. The Chairman.] Tou are the Bishop of the Nelson Diocese?—Tes. 2826. How long have you held that position ?—Since 1806. 2827. What estates which have originated in Government grants, directly or indirectly, are held by the Church of England in this province ? —I thiuk that the Whakarewa estate, situated at Motueka, is the only one which is, strictly speaking, of that character. 2828. What is the area of that estate ? —lt would perhaps save trouble if I were to refer the Commission to the report of the Commission on Eeligious, Charitable, and Educational Eeserves, published as an Appendix to the Journals of the House of Eepresentatives for 1869—A.-3. At page 30 there is a full description of the holdings, which gives, practically, a correct statement of the acreage. No doubt the Crown grants would be found to include rather more land ; but there are river-beds aud other waste portions, which will make up the balance. 2829. In whose custody is the Crown grant of this property ?—ln mine. 2830. In your opinion, is the estate being utilized in terms of the trust ? —Certainly, within the last few years. There was a time when it was in abeyance ; but within the last few years the terms of the trust have been carried out. 2831. What is the rental of the estate ?—ln the last annual report on this institution which I submitted to the Diocesan Synod I state, on this poiut, " Taking tho rental of 1577, the gross amount is £334 18s. This will be a little augmented as new leases are granted, but not to such an extent as expected, on account of the lamentable destruction and depreciation of the value of property by last 18— H. 1.

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year's floods." In the report of 1809, before alluded to, the rent was then stated at £346 14s. ; and it was estimated that the probable value to let in 1881 would be £761 Bs. 6d. Now, a great change has taken place in the property since that estimate was made, and I hold in my hand a report from the bailiff, giving an account of the various properties, and the destruction caused by the floods. The first property mentioned in the list, which was let at £50, has been re-let at £52, instead of the estimated rent of £100 ; and the Commission will not be surprised at this fact when they hear the following: — " The holdings that have sustained the greatest injury are Atkins, Croucher's, and Holyoak's. On Atkins holding of 100 acres, about five acres of the low land at the west end has been covered so deeply with sand and shingle as to ruin it; and over the greater part of the remainder there is a deposit of soil and sand varying from a few inches to about three feet in depth, the greater part of which is fertile, though it is inferior to the soil it has covered ; but there are strips of clean sand, where the current was strongest, covering five or six acres, which are sterile. I consider this holding worth £20 a year less than before the flood, but believe it is still worth the rent he pays —viz., £o0 per annum." That has been increased to £52 a year, according to the estimate of the Eoad Board, and a special valuation I had made; and in five years' time it will be £55 —a very great difference from the £100 estimated to be its probable value to let in 1881. This is the worst case, but there are others. One small holding, in the occupation of a tenant named Taylor, has increased from £5 to £10; and, of course, there are others away from the locality of the floods ; but, unfortunately, several of the larger holdings are situated in exposed positions. 2832. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What means are employed to secure that the properties are let at the highest possible rent ? Are they exposed to auction ? —No. They are coming in by degrees. A few of the leases have been renewed by myself on the recommendation of the solicitor, Mr. Adams, and the bailiff', Mr. Greenwood ; and, after taking into consideration the special valuation made by my direction, and the valuation of tho Eoad Board, and also taking into consideration the improvement of the property, I did not think it was right that those who had improved their holdings should not have the advantage of such improvement. Some of the tenants have built very excellent houses, and I think it would not be at all encouraging to them for the next few years if we did not give them some advantage on that account. So that I did not estimate anything more than the improvement in the land, but certainly not the houses that were put upon it. 2833. Professor Sale.] At what date were most of these leases granted ?—The first were granted in 1857, and nine of them expired last year ; the leases were for twenty-one years. 2834. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Did the original leases contain any covenant about renewal or compensation ? —Tes; some of the tenants were entitled to renewal. 2835. Professor Sale.] Not at the same rent, I presume ?—I believe they were to be decided by arbitration, provided for in the leases. 2836. Can you say whether, in the case of any of the more important holdings, the present occupants are the original lessees or not ? —A great many of the leases have been transferred. I have very frequently had to agree to transfers recommended by the solicitor. 2837. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know whether the transfers were frequently for valuable consideration ? —ln several cases it was simply a transfer of property because the man was insolvent. Scarcely in any case that I can remember was the transfer effected for the purpose, as it were, of getting money, but simply because it was necessary, iv connection with other property, or on account of the persons leaving the district. 2838. Professor Sale.] Are you always acquainted with the circumstances of the transfer of leases ? —Tes ; I always make particular inquiries from the solicitor to the trust. 2539. So that money could not be paid for a lease without your being aware of it?— Not openly ; no. 2540. Not openly ?—For instance, I know that leases have been transferred as security for money lent. 2841. That comes to the same thing, I think ? —Well, it does not appear on tho face of the transaction. That is only, however, with reference to small holdings. 2842. Professor Shand.] I think you stated that the leases were renewable at the expiry of the twenty-one years : are they renewable indefinitely, or is any period mentioned? —I should prefer to send to the solicitor for copies of the old and new leases. I believe I refused to grant new leases for a period longer than fourteen years, and I observe among the papers a note to the effect that a payment has first to be made in advance, and another after seven years. My opinion was that it would be undesirable to renew* for a longer term than fourteen years. 2843. The Chairman.] How is the revenue which is derived from these holdings expended?—On the maintenance of a boarding and day school, the salary of master, and expenses of boarding and clothing as many as the funds will allow, giving industrial training to the girls and boys so far as is possible. I refer to the statement laid by me before the Nelson Diocesau Synod last year, to which I am responsible as trustee. [See Appendix IX. —I.] 2844. I understand that all the revenue arising from the estate is expended on the school you have just alluded to ? —Tes, for teachers' salaries, repairs to some of the properties, and the boarding. 2845. How many pupils are at the school ?—Five girls, who are boarded, and there is a fluctuating day school, consisting of children of both sexes. 2846. Professor Sale.] Are they all Maoris ? —Tes. Mr. Baker, in his last report on the school, refers to the condition of the Maoris, and to the fact that their Hauhau prophet had been amongst them and disturbed their minds, setting them against the school and education for the time being. Mr. Baker says, " Some of the Maoris are very anxious that we should receive more boarders, but I have to tell them plainly that we cannot. They see their children cannot derive the same advantages as day scholars that they would as boarders ; when living at home they are under the influence of innumerable relatives. For the sake of the children themselves I should like to be in a position to board as many as would come, for lam fully convinced that is the ouly way of reclaiming them. A

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Maori prophet here has tried to induce one of our girls to go and place herself under his teaching." I am happy to say they are dissatisfied with him now, and are gradually drawing away from him. 2847. Professor Shand.] Could you tell us the average number of day scholars ?—-The attendance varies very much indeed, ln fact, Ido not attach so much importance to tho day school, it is so very irregular, but I rely more upon the boarding. We are able to do something with those who board at the institution, but very little, comparatively speaking, with the others. Thero are very few Maoris now at Motueka. 2848. Bey. W. J. Habens.] AVas the account for 1878 a similar ono to the account for 1877 ?— Tes, exactly the same. I may mention that five new rooms are being added to the house now occupied, which is a private house. The school used to be held at a place called "The College," three miles away from tho town, but the Maoris had an objection to sending their children there, and it was moved into the village, since when it has been much more successful, being nearer to the Maoris than formerly. 2849. Professor Sale.] And is this house you now occupy rented for the purpose ?—Tes, the rent appears in the accounts —" Rent of building, £20." 2850. Professor Shand.] Is the school conducted as an ordinary primary school, in regard to the subjects taught?—lt is more like a boarding-house. The girls are all together in the same house; they ha vo their lessons regularly —just the simple subjects, and they are taught needlework and have industrial training in the house. It is almost impossible to get them to do anything beyond a little house-work. I may mention that one of tho girls trained at this institution was recently married to Mr. Parkes, and she affords a good illustration of what can be done with Maori children when they are taken in hand thoroughly. The wife of the teacher, Mr. Baker, who comes from the North, is a very valuable person, and both she and her husband are thorough Maori scholars. Maori is spoken throughout the house, but the girls have their lessons in English from Mr. Baker. 2851. They are just taught reading, writing, and arithmetic ? —Tes ; they are examined once a year, either by myself or the Eev. J. S. Grace, jun., who speaks Maori very well; and the Eev. S. Poole visits the school occasionally. 2852. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What is approximately the average length of time during which the pupils remain in tho boarding-school ?—I could not answer that. 2853. Be v. W. E. Mulgan.] Is there any age at which children are admitted ?—We are so anxious to get pupils that we take them at almost any age —very young ; but we have declined to take one or two because they were too old. 2854. Professor Sale.] Practically, then, there is no limit so far as youth is concerned ? —No. 2855. But you have occasionally objected to candidates for admission on account of age ? —Tes. 2856. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] You mentioned, I think, that one girl was married from the school ? —Yes. 2857. Professor Sale.] To what age do you keep them at the school, as a rule ? —As long as we possibly can. 2858. Until they are grown-up women ? —Yes ; we keep them as long as we cau. Of course we have not had the chance yet of keeping them for such a long period as you mention. 2859. How long has the school been in good working condition ? —About five years in its present state, but it has been doing good work at intervals for eighteen years. A good many of the pupils have been taken away to the North Island, and they are constantly moving, so that it is difficult for me to answer directly without a register of the names of those who have come in and gone out. 2860. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I suppose you have not accommodation for teaching boys as well as girls, except little boys ? —No. We made our choice between the two, years ago. The school used to be chiefly composed of boys. I have met boy*s at Pelorus who were educated there. I married a young man at Pelorus who was educated at the school under Mr. Tudor, wdien he was head of the institution fifteen years ago. I should like to mention with regard to this institution that, in my opinion, it is a case deserving of assistance from the Maori funds. It has proved to be efficient in the training of girls with the existing staff and under present circumstances, and at a cost of £20 each. If the numbers were greater we could wholly maintain, clothe, and educate these Maori girls, even at a less cost than the sum I have mentioned. 2861. The Chairman.] Do I understand that you get no aid at all from the Government ? —No aid at all. I applied to the late Sir Donald McLean, who made a kind of verbal promise that something would be done, but we have received no assistance whatever from the Government. 2862. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that if there were a larger income there would be a greater demand for the kind of education which the institution supplies ?—Decidedly ; I am sure of that. 2863. Professor Sale.] Then the Maoris themselves are not dissatisfied with the institution ? — Some, not all of them, are a little dissatisfied with the original grants, but they are not dissatisfied with the institution, except that some of them say just now it is bewitched. They are very much attached to Mr. and Mrs. Baker. 2864. What did you mean by saying they were dissatisfied with the original grants? Did you mean that they were dissatisfied that the land should have passed away from them for this purpose ?— Some of them are; but that is controverted. Mr. Tudor, if he were here, would be able to show that it was not the case; because the persons wdio really made over the land in question are still living. That was merely a little matter of prejudice, and has blown over now. 2865. The Chairman.] Do I understand that the Maoris were the donors of the estate ? —Of certain portions. 2866. Professor Shand.] You mentioned, I think, that you had some difficulty in obtaining pupils: is that on account of the small number of tho Maori population? —Y"es ; for we have taken pupils who were staying with their friends on this side of the Bay, but who really belonged to the North Island; and we have also two from Collingwood. 2867. If the income were increased to enable you to maintain more pupils, would not that

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difficulty be increased as well ? If you have a difficulty now iv filling up the school would it not be still more difficult to get a larger number ?—We have no difficulty in filling up the institution with boarders. It was when we only had day scholars that the difficulty was experienced. 2868. Professor Sale] How long has the school been a boarding school ?—Ever since Mr. Baker went there, when we began to take boarders at onee —five years ago. 2869. The Chairman.] I would like to know, my Lord, in what way you arc connected with the Nelson College ?—ln no way whatever. 2870. It did not form part of the educational endowment granted to tho Church of England ?— No. 2871. Under what conditions is the Bishopdale Theological College held? —In answer to that I may be allowed to hand in a paper which I have prepared for the information of the Commission, and which will show exactly what the position of Bishopdalo College is. It will show that while the institution benefits by trust funds, it is not a trust itself. Paper put in and read. [See Appendix VI. —C. Bishopdalo Theological College, p. 31.] 2872. Professor Sale.] You state that a sum of £3,000 is invested : how was that obtained ?—lt was given by Bishop Hobhouse under the title of the " Clergymen's Eeplenishment Fund," and it may be applied in any way the Bishop thinks right for the replenishment of the clergy, by education or otherwise. It might be applied, for instance, in sending clergymen to England to be educated. The money was given by Bishop Hobhouse. Not one penny of it need necessarily be applied to the purposes of this institution. It might bo devoted, at the discretion of the Bishop, for instance, to paying the passages of clergymen from one part of the world to another. It gives, nevertheless, an element of fixity to the College by securing its continuance. 2873. Professor Shand.] Not necessarily if the funds can be applied in any other way ? —At all events it is a proved possibility of the permanence of the institution. 2874. Professor Sale.] Is there any part of the revenue of the Bishopdale College which is derived from public sources? —-None whatever. I suppose the link of connection between the Commissioners and myself, in reference to the College, is merely the question of affiliation to the New Zealand University; and, of course, I must show that there is a reasonable probability of the institution being carried on. 2575. You mention that there are three undergraduates at present in residence ?—Yes, two in actual, and one in occasional residence. 2876. Have any of these gone up for the University examinations ?—No. 2877. Did they matriculate at the College ? —They were examined by the Board approved of by the Chancellor. 2878. By the Matriculation Board attached to the College ?—Tes. Consisting of the gentlemen mentioned in the paper just read. 2879. Professor Sale.] Then two of these students have passed annual examinations in accordance with tho University regulations ? —Tes. 28S0. Bey. W. J. Habens.] —Are these undergraduates already in orders ? —Tes ; one in deacon's orders and the other in priest's orders. 2881. And when you say one of them is engaged in teaching elementary work, do you mean in instructing the other students who are coming on —that, being, in fact, comparatively a senior student himself, he is helping the juniors ? —Tes. 2882. What is the connection between the Bishopdale Theological College and the Bishop's School ? —None, necessarily. 2883. I ask the question because I observe that the Bishop's School department is represented in the University Calendar as being part of the institution of Bishopdale Theological College ?—There is no organic connection. 2884. Professor Sale.] Is Bishop's School affiliated to the University separately ?—No. 2885. Then it is not an affiliated institution ?—No, not separately. 2886. It should not appear in the Calendar ? —I do not know. 2887. Professor Shand.] Is the headmaster of Bishop's School the Latin tutor at Bishopdale College ? —Not the present master. Mr. Chepmell has just left the Bishop's School. Last January he was appointed to one of the town schools —the first town school—but still continues to lecture on Latin at Bishopdale. It was hoped by the founders of the Bishop's School that it might be an institution the elder scholars of which might become students of theology ; but that is not the case yet, or likely to be at present. 2888. Could you tell us the number of hours per week during which the Latin tutor gives instruction in tho College ? —I have just arranged for him to come for two afternoons in the week—that is to say, for about two hours and a half in the afternoon, and one hour on another afternoon—about three and a half hours a week altogether. 2889. Then, with respect to the lecturer on botany and physiology, how many hours' instruction does he give per week ?—One hour and a half. 2890. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I notice that your Lordship is put down as teacher in classics : is the instruction you have just spoken of all tho instruction in classics which is given iv the institution ?— By no means ; I myself teach between 9 and 1 every day. In fact Mr. Chepmell only comes, as it were, for Latin composition ; I hear all the Latin and Greek. 2891. Professor Shand.] And you take also the mathematics and general literature ? —Tes. 2892. Then you are occupied from 9 to 1 every day? —Tes; I give my whole time to it as far as I possibly can, believing it to be important. 2893. And Dr. Boor attends for an hour and a half ?—Tes ; generally two hours. 2894. For how many hours in tho week is Herr Harling employed ?—Mr. Grace has been his only student, and has been teaching the others, who have only just been doing the preliminary parts. 2895. He does not visit the College ?—-No, except for examinations. I shall very likely scud them to him this quarter, but it is uncertain.

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2896. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you regard Bishop's School as strictly speaking a grammar school, . or is it rather a combination of the primary school and the grammar school? —I may say that it is in a very unsatisfactory state at the present time. A great many of the elder boys left last year to go to the College, and we had a change of masters, which is always a great drawback, and Mr. Chepmell was removed to the school in town. He teaches Latin, and, of course, on that account would draw off some boys. Consequently, the school just now has to be begun all over again. Hitherto it has been a superior grammar school, and objection was made on the Central Board to the establishment of a high school, on the ground that the Bishop's School supplied what was wanted —the Bishop's School and the College between them. 2897. Professor Sale.] Where is the institution?—ln the town, in a building near the Church Hill. It only consists of one large room and a small playground; it was tho first school in the place. 2898. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How many masters are there now?— Only one, Mr. Harkness, who was a scholar of the New Zealand University. 2899. Does he receive a larger emolument than when in his former position of assistant ?—He simply receives what tho school produces. This is not a Government grant. The property is diocesan property, and it is put at the disposal of the Bishop for the purposes of a school so long as he can maintain a school. 2900. Professor Sale.] What class of boys do you get at the Bishop's School—l mean socially ? Are they mixed ?—They are rather superior ; they have included sons of ministers, lawyers, bankers, and people of that class, and the better sort of tradespeople. Some of the boys come five or six miles to attend the school, and others from the country. 2901. I suppose it is open to all who choose to attend. Is there any restriction?— The headmaster and the Bishop have the absolute right of declining to receive any boy, aud that right has been exercised, but, of course, for sufficient reasons. 2902. The Chairman.] The Commission would like to know whether, in your opinion, the present University of New Zealand is giving that degree of University education which is commensurate with the demands of the colony ?—My view has always been that it would be desirable for the present that it should follow in the steps of the London University, and not be a teaching body at all, but only an examiuing and testing body. And, the better to carry that out, I should be glad to see the matriculation examination common to the whole of New Zealand, instead of being in the hands of the various institutions. I should like to see free trade in teaching ; that any institution which, owing either to personal influence or pecuniary or other advantages, could give a better education, should have its influence only iv virtue of what it offered, and should be open to all. But I should be sorry to see auy restrictions upon persons offering themselves for degrees who came from isolated institutions, or without any University training whatever. I think it would be rather hard upon certain individuals, who might have opportunities of training their sons, if they could not get degrees for them without sending them away from home. It seems to me that the University degree should be open to all who attained a certain standard, and presented themselves at a certain place at a certain time. I have been thinking of the matter for the last few years and have come to that conclusion with reference to it. That would not at all interfere with the very high development of any college in any particular spot, either North or South. All that I should hope would be that there would bo no exclusive privilege, and the University need not trouble itself with scholarships, only degrees. 2903. Professor Shand.] Is your opinion based upon the present circumstances of New Zealand ; or do you hold that persons in all countries should get degrees simply on examination without necessarily having gone through a University training? —My opinion is based very much upon the state of things in England, where they have the local Universities, and there is also a demand for the degree alone ; and so I think there would be here—there would be a demand for the local University, and the degree through the help of the local University or college, and there would be also a demand for the other. That would be the case, I think, for some time to come, perhaps always. I can conceive that the circumstances of many people would be such as would require that arrangement. But I should like it to be distinctly understood that my feeling is that it would not at all interfere with the very high development as collegiate institutions of any number of such institutions. 2904. The only improvement you would be inclined to suggest in the working of the University then, would be the institution of a general matriculation examination, conducted, I presume, by the University ? —Tes ; that is one special improvement, and the opening of degrees to all comers eligible for them. 2905. Bey. W. J. Habens] With regard to the appointment of members of the Senate, do you think that tho present mode of appointment is satisfactory; or have you any suggestions to make as to the manner iv which members of the Senate should be appointed ?—I have not looked into that matter. 2906. The Chairman.] W rhat is your opinion as to the standard for the B.A. degree, and the working of the examinations hitherto ?—Of course a great deal would depend upon what the idea of the authorities of the University was, as to what the standard should be. But it appears to me that for an ordinary degree the number of subjects, and the amount necessary to be read, is very much larger than, at all events, my remembrance of what was required in the University of Cambridge. 2907. Do you mean that the subjects are more numerous? —The subjects are more numerous, and the books required to be studied for an ordinary degree seem to me to be much more voluminous. 2908. Professor Sale.] Tou are speaking now simply of tho details of examinations that have taken place ?—Tes. 2909. That the amount, for instance, of Latiu has been 'unusually large ?—Yes ; the number of books, both in Latin and Greek —Homer, Virgil, and so on. 2910. You are complaining, then, rather of the examinations that have taken place, than of the regulations with respect to examinations? —I am rather complaining of tho excessive quantity that has been prescribed uuder the subjects of examination than of the regulations respecting examinations.

Bishop of Nelson,

March 31,1879.

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At the same time I think that, for an ordinary degree, there ought to be some means of giving a degree in four subjects. 2911. Professor Shand.] Tour opinion, I presume, is, then, that the standard for the examination has been too high ? —A little too high, but not much, both iv quantify and quality for an ordinary degree. 2912. Professor Sale.] Do you approve of Latin and mathematics being compulsory? —Tes; it is a very salutary provision. 2913. Professor Shand.] Would you have any other subject made compulsory?— No. 2914. Professor Sale.] You stated that you are iv favour of the Newr Zealand University following in the steps of the London University, by granting degrees solely upon examination. Would it also be desirable, do you think, to do awray with affiliated institutions altogether, and leave them entirely independent of the University ? —I should like to see some plan devised by which the University could, to a certain extent, encourage attendance at a collegiate institution, and yet not exclusively so. 2915. For instance, you know that one important function of the University at present is granting scholarships : would you make the institutions at which scholars pursue their studies in any way dependent upon, or liable to supervision from, the University?— Yes, certainly. 2916. In what way?— That they should bo able, according to the conditions of affiliation, to show that there was a probability of their being able to carry the students who have obtained scholarships further on. But that would not apply, of course, to candidates for ordinary degrees. 2917. TheD your remark with regard to free trade in education would apply solely to the obtaining of degrees ? —I think that a scholarship might be offered, and if obtained the individual might choose where he would take advantage of it; but it should be under such circumstances as would give a probability of his being able to make further progress —that is to say, I should not contemplate giving a scholarship to a person residing at home. But the best way would be to let the colleges give scholarships, and the University leave them alone. 2918. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] He must pursue his studies in some affiliated institution? —Yes, I think so, if the University continues to give scholarships. 2919. Professor Sale.] Therefore you think it desirable that the existence of affiliated institutions as at present should continue? —Yes, as at present. Ido not go further than that —that the privileges under affiliation should be continued; the privilege, I mean, with regard to the degree, not necessarily the privilege with regard to scholarships. There is a privilege under the degree, and I should not like.to include both. I should certainly like to see tho affiliation continued with reference to the possibility of persons getting degrees at institutions in which they can at present. I should not like to see the privileges at present existing removed, so as to compel persons to go to any particular college for the purpose of getting a degree. 2920. You mean that the present institutions which are affiliated you would like to see remain affiliated ? —Yes. 2921. You know that in the list of affiliated institutions several are included which are simply grammar schools?— Yes. 2922. Would you like to see them still remain as affiliated institutions?—lt is a difficult question to answer, because you cannot exactly draw the line between many of these grammar schools and colleges—you cannot say they are grammar schools exactly. For instance, Nelson College is a grammar school, but at the same time it is perfectly able to carry on boys to a degree. 2923. Professor Shand.] Do you approve, then, of secondary education aud higher education being combined in one institution?—No, perhaps not, if you are establishing it for the first time; but I think that if an institution has grown up to a certain condition, owing to the circumstances of its foundation, aud so forth, it would be rather arbitrary to alter it. 2924. Professor Sale.] But none of these institutions, surely, have grown up as affiliated institutions ? —But I allude to Nelson College. That has grown from a superior primary school, as it were, into a secondary school, and there has been no link missing between its former state and its present. Owing to the increase of population, and to the increase of its funds and success of its teaching, it has been gradually developed from a superior primary school into being a primary and secondary school. If you were founding Nelson, or any other place, I should certainly say establish distinct primary schools, and distinct secondary schools. 2925. And you think the same institution should also, if it is capable of doing so, grow* into a college providing University education as well ? that, in fact, it might be all three—a primary school, a secondary school, and an institution providing University education, all in one? —I think some means should be provided whereby that could be allowed, when it had arisen out of the circumstances. Logically it is not right, but I think that practically it would work well. 2926. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Was Nelson College ever a primary school?—No; but it was doing that work pretty much when it first started, and, in fact, at the present time in its lower classes it is giving primary education. There are, indeed, boys iv our State schools who are in advance of some of the pupils in the lower classes at the College. I rather hesitated in my answer to Professor Sale's question in reference to the desirability of continuing the existing affiliated institutions, because I did not wish to shut the door against anything like real bond fide collegiate training. 2927. Professor Shand.] In fact, if the circumstances admitted of a separation between secondary education and higher or University education, you would approve of its beiug done ? —Theoretically I should, but it might be expedient not to do so ; in the process of doing it you might injure valuable institutions. That is my difficulty—theoretically I certainly think so, but practically it might be inexpedient to do so ; you might, for some years at all events, lose more than you would gain. 2928. And by saying that you approve of the principle theoretically, I presume you mean that both secondary education and higher education would be improved by the separation, if it is to be accepted generally ? —Yes, undoubtedly they would be improved by separate institutions.

Bishop of Nelson.

March 31, 1879,

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Mr. Oswald Curtis, M.H.E., was sworn and examined. 2929. The Chairman.] You were for a great many years Superintendent of the Province of Nelson ? —Yes. 2930. For how many years ?—Ten. 2931. Could you tell us wdiat endowments were made in this province for educational purposes, exclusive of those made for primary education under" The Education Beserves Act, 1877 "? —No endowments were made that I am aware of, leaving out those of the New Zealand Company. 2932. How was the Motueka endowment granted ? —That I consider to have been for primary education. The institution was called a college; but it was chiefly for the education of Maori children, and children from other islands in the South Seas. 2933. Professor Shand.] We wish to hear even about endowments for primary education, except those under the Act of 1877 ? —I know of no endowments which I should class as endowments for secondary education in this province—none whatever. Of course, there may be a question with regard to the Motueka estate, as it was called a reserve for a college ; but, practically, I think it was simply intended for primary education, and it has been so applied. 2934. We have got to inquire into such endowments, even though they be for primary education ? —Then we had a certain endowment for primary education, being 5 per cent, of the proceeds of all sales of land—" one-twentieth," I think, were the words of the Act. 2935. That is, the Act of 1877 ?—No ; I am speaking of an old Land Act relating to the Province of Nelson —an Act passed in 1563, which provided that one-twentieth of all land surveyed for sale should be reserved for the purpose. Practically, we devoted the money received from the sales to the purposes of primary education. 2936. What has become of these funds ? —They were expended annually in the support of the schools. 2937. None of these funds accumulated, and there were no reserves purchased ?—There were a number of reserves iv the different townships which were chiefly intended to provide sites for schools. 2938. The Chairman.] Were there no landed estates granted to religious denominations here in the olden times, as was the case in Auckland ? —No ; there was a certain amount of money from the funds of the New Zealand Company ; but no land granted, that I recollect. 2939. Professor Shand.] Was that money invested for the purposes of education ?—lt was divided amongst the different religious bodies, and vested in trustees. It was not for the purposes of education, in a secular sense, but for theological purposes —for the support of their Churches. 2940. Was it not for educational purposes, as well as for religious purposes ? —I am speaking from memory only*, but, as far as I recollect, it was simply money for the religious bodies as such, to be devoted to the support of their Churches. 2941. At all events, so far as you are aware, none of these funds are devoted to educational purposes ?—Not specifically. 2942. Do you recollect whether the amount of these funds was considerable ? —No, it was not very large ; I cannot recollect what it was—perhaps £10,000. 2943. Could you tell us who the trustees are ? —They are the governing bodies of each Church ; they are different in the case of the different Churches. 2944. And these endowments arc still held by the respective Churches, I suppose ? —I know nothing of what has been done with the money, beyond the fact that it was distributed amongst these different bodies. The money was vested originally in a Board of Trustees ; those trustees divided the money amongst the different religious bodies, and wound up the trust. 2945. Have any endowments been made for secondary education ?—No ; none whatever. 2946. The Chairman.] How is the Nelson College maintained ? Has it any endowments, or is it dependent on the school fees ? —There was an endowment made by the New Zealand Company out of the proceeds of the sales of land. A certain proportion of the receipts from the sales of laud which were made in England was paid into a separate account by theNNcrw r Zealand Company, and vested in certain trustees. Ultimately, wrhen the affairs of the New Zealand Company were wound up, and the Imperial Government assumed their liabilities, the money was paid over to a Board of Trustees in the colony. 2947. What sum was so paid over ? —I think it was about £25,000 for secondary education. 2948. And that sum was invested in the purchase of the present endowments of the College, I presume ? —lt was appropriated for building tho College, and the balance of the money was invested, generally speaking, in mortgages upon real property, the proceeds of which go to the support of the College. 2949. Professor Sale.] Then does the College possess no landed estate ? —They have made some exchanges of lands. They do hold a certain amount of land in the Amuri and at Eiwaka, but without reference to books I could not tell you the quantity, nor exactly how it was obtained, but it was part of the proceeds of the funds I have mentioned. 2950. It was not a Government graut, but it was purchased or exchanged ? —Tes. There were one or two small blocks of land set aside by the New Zealand Company for the same purpose, in addition to the money, but the Secretary to the College would be able to give you the details of all these matters. 2951. Professor Shand.] Was the College founded under any provincial Ordinance?—No; the Constitution Act expressly precluded either the General Assembly or Provincial Councils from dealing with this question. 2952. Then how were the purposes of the College defined ? —Power was afterwards taken to define them by an Act called " The Nelson College Act, 1858." 2953. Was the school established before that Act was passed? —It w*as in operation before that to a certain extent; but I had nothing to do with the College in those days, aud am speaking entirely from memory, and without any official connection with the matter.

Mr. O. Curtis.

March 31,1879,

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2954. Tou are one of the Board of Governors of the College, I think ? —Tes; I have only been so for a few- years. 2955. Have you found the funds sufficient for the support of the school ?—Of course the funds being small has limited our operations a good deal. We could have done much better if we had had a larger amount of funds —we could have enlarged our institution considerably. 2956. In what respect?—We are now making an addition to the building to accommodate sixteen more boarders, and building a large new class-room, but we are doing so out of the savings of our last year's operations. 2957. If you had had funds available, you could have done that sooner, and would have done so, probably ? —Tes. 2958. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I notice that the Commissioner of Crown Lands, in making a return of reserves in this district, states that there are reserves belonging to the Nelson College—vested in the governors of that institution—of which I have a list. Can you say how* these were acquired ?— As far as my knowledge goes, they were all acquired long before I had any connection with the College, and, with the exception of a few acres in the town, they were acquired from the funds of the New Zealand Company. 2959. Professor Sale.] They were purchased, then?— Some were purchased, and some exchanged. I am hardly able to say. 2960. Professor Shand.] I think there are some scholarships in connection with the College: how were these established ? —Some by private donation, and some by votes of the Provincial Council, which are now* continued by the colony. 2961. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know in what way the colony now contributes to the support of these scholarships ? Is there a direct vote taken from year to year for the Nelson College ? —I do not recollect. It is a very small sum—l think about £160 a year —which was given by the Provincial Council, and which, I believe, is continued by r the General Assembly in some shape. 2962. Professor Shand.] Is there any capital fund in connection with these scholarships?— There is no special capital fund; there is merely the capital fund of the College. 2963. I understand that the scholarships are not paid out of the capital fund of the College—that they were the gift of private individuals or came from the Government: in the case of those coming from private individuals are they contributed year by year? —No; the individuals paid a certain sum of money, which was invested as part of the funds of the College, and the scholarships are provided for from the interest. 2964. There are scholarships provided by the Education Board; these are tenable at the College, of course ?—I cannot say, unless you refer to those I have already spoken of as originally instituted by the Provincial Government. 2965. Bey. W J. Habens.] Do you know anything of a society called the Nelson School Society ? —Tes. 2966. Can you give any information as to its original purpose ?•—I think it was established to provide primary education simply. There was at the time no provision by the Legislature in any way, and this society* merely made some temporary provision for primary education. Then, after provision was made by the Provincial Council of Nelson, their schools were taken over —so far as their use for day schools was concerned —by the Provincial Government, and some, or all of them, were retained as Sunday schools by the Nelson School Society. 2967. So far as you know is the Nelson School Society, in holding these properties as Sunday schools, fulfilling any part of its original purpose ?—I am not able to answer that question. 2968. Professor Sale.] Tou are one of the governors of Nelson College ?—Tes. 2969. What do you consider is the main object of that institution ? —I presume it was founded for the purpose of carrying out the usual functions of a college, in the general understanding of the word. That is what we are aiming at. 2970. By a college do you mean a grammar school, or do you mean a University institution?— Well, we aim at the University institution, and arrive as near to that point as we can. 2971. Combining the two ?—Tes, combining the two, in fact. 2972. And do you also include primary education ? —No. 2973. Is it the case that the lower forms in the school are really receiving what would be called primary education ? —Tes, I think that must be the case. 2974. Is any limit fixed as to the age at which boys are admitted to the College?— Nine years is the age. 2975. And is there any entrance examination ? —I do not think there is any very formal examination ; there is a certain examination, I know, but what the nature of it is I am unable to say. 2976. What objects had the governors of the College in seeking affiliation with the University of New Zealand? —To obtain for the students the advantages which a University is generally supposed to confer upon a college. They got certain funds at first, but, apart from that, they obtain a certain amount of supervision—that is to say, it is necessary in order to comply with the rules of tho University to give certain instruction, which, perhaps, they might not otherwise have given. 2977. Tou mean that affiliation would force the College to put forth more efforts in the way of instruction ? —Exactly. 2978. And has that been the case ?—I think so, decidedly. 2979. Have more funds been expended iv paying instructors since affiliation? —No; we have not had more funds, except those which at one time were provided by the University itself. 2980. Professor Shand.] Can you tell us on what particular object the i'unds provided by the University were expended ? —I am unable to say; Ido not thiuk I was governor of the College at the time. I have only been a governor for a few years. Mr. J. W. Barnicoat was sworn and examined. 2981. The Chairman.] Tou are one of the governors of the Nelson College?— Yes.

Mr. O. Curtis,

March 31, 1879.

ilr.J. Barnicoat.

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2982. How long have you occupied that position ?—From the beginning. I have been a governor ever since governors were appointed ; I was going to say ever since the College was established, but it was established before the governors were appointed. 2983. How long has the system of governors been in existence ? —Since 1858. The deed of trust which provided for the election of governors is dated 1858. 2954. Was the College established long before that time ?—Some few years before. 2955. When the school was established was it as a primary school or as a grammar school?—lt was called a College, and not a grammar school, and it was what we should now call a secondary school. 2986. It was not established as a mere elementary school ?—No ; although tho deed of foundation allows of pupils being admitted at the age of nine years, and with a low qualification—that of being able to write with facility from dictation, and of knowing the first four rules of arithmetic. I think those were the exact terms of tho Act of 1858. 2987. Professor Shand.] The school was in existence before that date: how was it conducted before that, and who formed the governing body?— The Trustees of tho Nelson Trust Funds. 2988. They were appointed in 1854,1 think ?—The first body of trustees existed in 1354 ; but the trustees who founded tho College were an elective body. 2989. Then the foundation of the school goes further back than 1854 ?—lt may be said to have been founded, perhaps, by tho New Zealaud Company in 1841, who accumulated funds from the beginning for the purpose of erecting a college. 2990. I should like to know when it was first brought into operation as a school?—I cannot recollect exactly —a few years before 1858; but the preamble of the deed of trust gives the exact dates, as it contains a long and precise history of the College. 2991. The Chairman.] How was the land on which the present College building stands acquired ?— When the New Zealand Company offered the lands in the settlement of Nelson for sale, they sold at a uniform price of 30s. an acre, and set aside from the beginning a certain portion of that 30s. for one purpose aud another. Five shillings an acre was set aside for collegiate, among oiher purposes ; sometime the term "college" is used, and sometimes the more general term of " educational purposes." They seem to have been treated as synonymous terms; but there was ss. out of the purchase-money of every acre set aside for collegiate and other purposes, and by-and-by it amounted to as much as £30,000 or £40,000. 2992. Bey. W. J. Habens.] £25,000 I think the deed says?— There was also a Steam Navigation Fund, and a Eeligious Fund, included iv the sum I have named. The Eeligious Fund was exhausted. The other funds by-and-by w rere iv common, and the trustees did not administer these separately, but wero allowed to spend any portion of the gross funds for any purpose for which they were trustees. The Eeligious Fund was exhausted by being divided among the religious bodies. The other funds were at first administered separately by the trustees, and by-aud-by became a joint fund; and then tho College portion, or such portion as the trustees chose to treat as the College portion, was handed over, on the terms of the deed of trust, to the College governors. These then became two bodies— the body of trustees aud the College governors; by-aud-by the trusteeship was abolished, and tho College governors remained. 2993. The Chairman.] Do I understand that the ss. deducted from the price of each acre was to be devoted to a collegiate institution, irrespective of primary education throughout the province?— Tes ; this was before the establishment of provincial institutions. 2994. Professor Shand.] And was there no provision made by the New Zealand Company for primary education ? —No, there was not, unless this fund might bo treated as a fund for general education. It is rather doubtful, being sometimes termed an educational fund and sometimes a college fund. 2995. Can you tell us the term ussd in the original deeds ? —I am referring now to the terras of settlement, the terms which the New Zealand Company published, as it were, as the foundation of the settlement of Nelson. 2996. And in those deeds it is sometimes referred to by the one name aud sometimes by the other?—lt is very many years since I saw the original terms aud conditions. Ido not know whether they are to be found, but I think I could lay my hands upon them. 2997. You mentioned a fund for religious purposes: can you tell us whether that fund was for religious purposes only, or for educational and religious purposes? —For religious purposes only. It was divided, aud given to the religious bodies, in proportion to their numbers. 2998. The Chairman.] In whose custody is the grant of the College grounds ?—I presume in that of Mr. Adams, the solicitor to the governors. 2999. Do I understand that this ground was purchased by the governors?— Yes ; the ground on which the College now stands. 3000. Professor Sliand.] Can you tell us what sum was handed over to the Board of Governors constituted under the Act of 1858 ? —I think it was £20,000 ; but it is fully set forth in tho deed of foundation, 1858. 3001. Was that in addition to any buildings that existed on the site of the school?—I cannot tax my memory. There were buildings handed over. The then College buildings wero not those which are now used. They w-ere in a different part of tho town, but they were handed over to the College governors, who bought another site —that on which the College now stands—and erected the present buildings. 3002. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know the block of land, indicated by the letter E, consisting of 331 acres, at Motueka ?—Tes. 3003. Do you know if that is the property of the trustees of tho College ?—Tes. 3004. And can you tell me how that stands related to a section of land which, in other returns, I find described as "Eiwaka, 325 acres"? —They are the same; we have only one block of land at Motueka of about that ar.ea. 3005. The Chairman.] Is the block being utilized ?—Tes; we receive a rent from it. It is leased to several tenants. 19— H. 1.

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3006. Professor Sale,] How was that block acquired?—lt is a reserve set apart by the New Zealand Company. 3007. Professor Shand.] When were the present buildings erected ? —About nineteen years ago. 3008. Do you remember tho amount that was expended on the buildings?—£B,ooo was the limit allowed by the deed of foundation, and that limit was at first adhered to; but, subsequently, other funds accrued, from which the governors added to the building fund. There has been more than £8,000 spent on the buildings, but the original limit was at first adhered to. 3009. W ras the cost of the site included in the £8,000 ? —I think it was. The site was purchased, at all events, by the Governors. 3010. The Chairman.] AVhat revenue has the College at present, independent of school fees? — There is a very large sum lent on mortgage, and wo have some land in the Amuri and elsewdiere. 3011. How was the land in the Amuri acquired ? Was it by purchase, or by gift from the Crown ? —It was acquired in exchange for an acre of land in Trafalgar Square, granted by Sir George Grey, and land at Motupipi. The acre in Trafalgar Square was found to be very iuconvcniently situated as regards the public, as it encroached on the common recreation-ground, and the Provincial Government gave the College governors in exchange for it a block of land iv the Amuri. 3012. What is the extent of the Amuri block?—2,7Bo acres. 3013. How are the members of the governing body now appointed ? —They are appointed by the Governor of the colony. 3014. What is their term of office?— Nine years; there are nine governors, three of whom retire triennially. 3015. What are tho powers of the headmaster of the College with regard to the appointment or dismissal of the other masters ?—The governors reserve the power of appointing the second master, but the headmaster has the appointment of the masters below the second master. The headmaster has no power of dismissal. 3016. Professor Shand.] That, I presume, is not under the Act, but is a concession made to the headmaster by the governors?—Tes; by a by-law. I have rather overstated the power of the headmaster; it is not that of appointing, but of recommending. Virtually it is the power of appointing, but not technically. 3017. Bey. W. J. Habens.] By whom is the curriculum of study drawn up?—By the governors, with the advice of the Principal aud of the second master. 30 LB. And who arranges the time-table ?—The classical and mathematical masters. 3019. With regard to the enforcement of discipline, is the headmaster supremo?—Tes. 3020. Do you think that the present curriculum of study is well adapted for the education of the greater number of tho pupih who actually attend the school ? —Very well indeed, as far as I can judge. 3021. And is it found that all classes of the community avail themselves of the school ?—I think the only objection is the pecuniary one. 3022. Tou do not find any difficulty on sectarian grounds ? —None whatever. 3023. The Chairman.] Are the masters paid by fixed salaries, or do they in any way participate in the fees ? —The first and second masters are paid by fixed salaries, and the headmaster also receives £2 for every boy educated in the institution, and the second master £1 for every boy. 3024. Does that include payment for the daily scholars as well as for the boarders? —Tes ; all who are educated at tho College, except those who have won provincial scholarships, in regard to whom the headmaster and second master forego their capitation money. 3025. Are. periodical examinations held at the school ? —Y'es ; the examination for prizes is held annually at midsummer. 3026. By whom are the examiners appointed ?—By the governors. 3027. Professor Sale.] Have you had any difficulty in getting examiners ?—lt is not an easy matter to get examiners. We have gone to the same gentleman year after year —the Eev. Mr. Poole, of Motueka. 3028. He has acted as examiner for a number of years ? —Yes. 3029. The Chairman.] Does he examine in all the branches of study ?—He has done so generally. 3029 a. Does he receive any remuneration for his services ?—He has received a fee. Last year, I think, it must have been twenty guineas, and before that ten guineas—a fee which is intended to cover his expenses. 3030. Have you formed any opinion as to whether there ought to be a system of inspection for such schools as Nelson College?—My attention has never been directed to the question ; but I cannot think that there is any necessity for an inspection. 3031. Has the Inspector of tho primary schools anything whatever to do in the way of inspecting the College ? —Under the Education Act the governors are required to submit tho College to the inspection of the Inspector of Schools, to enable them to receive scholars who have been awarded scholarships under that Act. 3032. Do you believe that tho parents of the pupils are generally satisfied with the class of education that is being given at the College? —Generally, I think, they are. I think it would satisfy the idea of many better if the education were what is termed more of a " commercial " kind ; but I think it is excellently adapted to the wants of the community. 3033. Professor Shand.] The boarding establishment is under the charge of the second master, I understand? —At present. 3034. Does he receive the boarding fees, or are they paid to the governors ?—They are paid to the governors, who are responsible for them. The master has no trouble in collecting them ; they are handed over to him in full. 3035. Does he receive a salary as master of the school in addition ? —Yes ; £335. 3036. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I notice in the report of last year an abstract of receipts and expenditure, iv which the receipts from boarding fees are set down ot £2.412, aud the boarding expenses at

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£2,001, thus making it appear as if the governors received more for boarding fees than they handed over to the second master ? —There is an extra charge of £10 for those who board from outside the limits of this province and that of Marlborough, which was a part of this province at the time of the foundation of the College. We treat it as a provincial establishment, aud those who take advantage of it from other parts of the colony are charged £10 more than our own children are ; or, rather, as wo put it, the boarding charge is £50, and there is a remission of £10 in favour of our own settlers. 3037. The result being that the Board receives £10, in tho case of such outside pupils, which does not go to the second master ?—Yes. 3038. It is an addition to the funds of the College, in fact ? —Tes ; except that the College sustains all the losses from non-payment, the second master having nothing whatever to do with collecting the boarding charges. 3039. Professor Shand.] In fact, the governors pay the master of the boarding establishment £40 for every pupil ? —Tes. 3040. Irrespective of whether they receive the money themselves or not ?—Tes. Mr. Eobert Pollock was sworn and examined. 3041. The Chairman.] You are Secretary to the Board of Governors of Nelson College?—l am. 3042. How long have you held that office? —For twelve or thirteen years. 3043. How many masters are there at the College ?—There are four masters on the staff besides the foreign language master, who attends a certain number of days in the week; there are five altogether. 3044. Four resident masters ? —Three resident masters, the Principal being provided with a certain allowance for rent. 3045. Could you tell us what salaries the masters receive, commencing with the Principal?— The Principal's emoluments consist of salary, allowance for rent, and a capitation fee of £2 per head per annum, amounting altogether to about £775 a year. Of course the amount varies, inasmuch as the capitation money will increase with the numbers. 3046. What is the fixed salary ?—£soo. 3047. And the allowance for rent ?—£84,1 think. 3048. The rest is made up of capitation fees ? —-There are about 107 boys on the roll now. 3049. How is the secondmaster paid?—He has a fixed salary of £325 a year, but he is also resident master and has charge of the boarding establishment, having the use of the College and furniture, and he is allowed £40 each for the boarders, which is the sum the Governors charge, in fact, and he receives £50 a year each for boarding the two junior masters. What benefit he derives from the boarding I am unable to state, as of course I have no means of knowing what profit he may make. 3050. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is there a capitation allowance to the second master?—No; there was before he became master of the boarding establishment—he used to receive half the allowance wdiich the Principal now r receives. 3051. The Chairman.] What remuneration does the next master receive?—He has £160 a year, and board and residence at the College. The fourth master receives £100 a year and board and residence in the College. The teacher of French and German has £100 a year for two hours' instruction on four days a week, but this sum is about to be increased, —he finds it is too low : however, that is the present salary. 3052. Are there any scholarships in connection with the school? —Yes ; you will find them stated in the printed report. There are four scholarships from the public schools, and there are four endowed scholarships —the Eichmond, Newcome, Stafford, and Fell scholarships. 3053. Professor Shand.] Do you remember the capital sum in each case? —Yes, I can tell that from the interest. The Newcome and the Eichmond scholarships were £300 each ; the Stafford and the Fell scholarships were each £200. 3054. These sums are invested on mortgage?— Yes. W re tried to keep them separate for a considerable time, but found it was impossible to keep them out of the general fund, and therefore the general fund furnishes the interest, and the money is let out as best we can. 3055. Besides these endowed scholarships, there are some others ? —Yes, the foundation scholarships —that is, founded by the governors out of the College endowment. There are the first classical, the second classical, and the third classical, the amounts being respectively £20, £10, and £5. Then thcro are three mathematical scholarships on the same footing, and of the same amounts, for the different grades in the school. 3056. These scholarships are not open to public competition, I presume ? —They are not open to any out of the College. 3057. For how many years are they tenable? —The foundation scholarships are tenable for one year only. The Newcome is tenable for three years, the Eichmond for two years, tho Stafford for three years, and the Fell for three years. 3058. And the competition for these latter scholarships is confined also to the pupils of the College ? —Yes. 3059. Do you know the limit of age ? —lt is set forth in the deeds of endowment. I think the age is over fifteen, with the exception of one case. The foundation scholarships are open without reference to age, excepting the two small ones of £5 each —classical and mathematical—which are confined to the lower class. 3060. Professor Shand.] What are the conditions of tenure? I suppose the scholars must attend the College ?—Tes. The scholarships are paid quarterly, and upon the Principal and resident masters' certificate of attention, and so forth. 3061. Is it necessary for a scholar to become a boarder ? —No. 3062. The Chairman.] How are the scholarships awarded? Is there a special examination for them ? —Tes.

Mr. J. Sarnicoat. March 31, 1879.

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3063. Professor Shand.] Are these examinations conducted by the staff of the school, or by outside examiners? — Outside examiners. Mr. Poole examines. According to the Act, the governors are allowed a guinea or £1 for each attendance, which, instead of receiving, they have for a number of years put aside in a suspense fund, and they have set apart £800 of that fund to endow certain scholarships, called the " Governors' Fees Scholarships," consisting of two for modern languages of £12 10s. a year each, and two for English literature of the same amount, all being tenable from year to year. Then there is the Simmons prize of £100, half of which was subscribed by the old pupils of the late Mr. Simmons, who had left the College, and the other half by the governors, out of their accumulated fees. 3064. And, besides all these scholarships, I suppose the scholarships instituted by the Education Board are tenable at the school? —Tes. There are two provincial scholarships each year, and they are for two years each, so that there are four scholars always in the College. These, of course, do not board. Then there are, also, two each year for the country schools, making four each year always resident in the College. The governors give the tuition fees of £12 10s. a year, and the local Government originally provided the boarding. 3065. Are these scholarships tenable at any other school than the Nelson College ? —No, they are confined to the College. The governors remit the tuition fees, and the local Governments —formerly the Marlborough and Nelson Governments —provided the board, to the amount of £40 a year each scholar. 3066. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Do you know by whom this £10 a year is provided now ? —The Central Board of Education appears to me to have to do with it now ; I suppose they must have a grant from the Government. 3067. So far as you know, it is the Education Board that supplies the money now ?—Tes ; it does not come through me at all, or through the College books. Then w re have one scholarship for Marlborough. There are always two on the books of the college who are also resident. 3068. The governors grant the fees ? —Tes ; and I suppose the Education Board of Marlborough pays the board. 3069. Professor Shand.] And they make it a condition that their scholars shall go to Nelson College ? —Tes. 3070. A condition of holding the scholarship ?—-Tes ; it is a scholarship in the Nelson College. The only thing is that, living at a distance, somebody must find their board, and that, I suppose, is defrayed at the preseut time by the General Government. I do not know of any other source, but formerly the money was found by the Provincial Government. 3071. I suppose you do not know the conditions of competition for the Education Board scholarships ? —No, I do not know much about that. 3072. Do you know the limit of age fixed? —I think the scholars must be under fourteen. 3073. I think you mentioned that the scholarships wero tenable for two years ?—Tes. Tho Simmons prize, as I have already told you. is the produce of £100. That money is at present deposited in the bank at 6^ per cent. Last year tho rate of interest was 6 per cent., and that is why it is put down at £6 for the year. It was to purchase " one or more prizes for English literature." 3074. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you state what is the average number of pupils attending tho College ? —lt has been increasing from year to year. The number was 105 at the conclusion of last year, and the College opened with 107 this year. 3075. I mean the average number of boys in daily attendance? —That may be almost taken at the number ou the roll, because more than half are resident in the College, and the rest live in the neighbourhood, so that the attendance is regular. 3076. Do you know whether the school roll is marked daily ?—I cannot say ; I know nothing of the internal management of tho school. 3077. With regard to the reserves, do you know Block A in the City of Nelson, consisting of seven acres? —No, Ido not; it does not belong to the College. 3078. There was a block described as "A, 7 acres," granted under the authority of the New Zealand Company in 1853 to the trustees of tho College. I find it stated that this has been subsequently exchanged, and added to "12 account," whatever that may mean. Can you tell us anything about tho transaction of exchange? —I do not think I can. I know that laud was exchanged, and I havo some data in my office taken from the original grant, including those lands, but they have not been in the hands of the College since I have been connected with it. 3079. And so far as you know, " Block A, 7 acres, City of Nelson," does not now belong to the College ?—I am quite sure it docs not. 3080. How was the College ground, consisting of about twelve acres, acquired? — Partly by exchange—that land might have been some of the land exchanged—but chiefly by purchase. 3081. Professor Shand.] Do you know what sum was paid for the site?—lt was bouaht from several persons. I could not tell you the exact amount without reference to the deeds; but I see from old minutes that considerable sums were paid for some of those acres, and some were exchanged. They were exchanged through the Superintendent of tho province at the time : they were conveyed to him, ar.d he conveyed other lands to the then trustees. I notice from some of the old minutes that three or four acres were bought of a person named Eidings, who was then living in Nelson, and that some were exchanged by Mr. Fell. 3052. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know a block of land described in a return of 1876 as "Motueka Block E" ? —No; we have no land in Motueka; none has belonged to the College since I have known it but Eiwaka, which is across the river. 3083. I find that, in a return headed " Nelson Eeserves, 1876," there is a block described as " Motueka Block 111., 331 acres, reserved for a college by authority of the New Zealand Company in 1853, and vested in the trustees of the college." Do you"think it at all possible that the reserve which your return acknowledges at Eiwaka, consisting of 325 acres, might be the same reserve ? —I cannot imagine why they should ever have called it Motueka, because it is across the river. It is another district—the district of Eiwaka.

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3084. Is it far from Motueka? —No; the river Motueka divides them. 3085. Of the 325 acres at Eiwaka, how much is let ? —Tho whole of it. 3086. The Commissioner of Crown Lands, Nelson, in a return of reserves sent to the Commis- ■ sion, iucludes Block F, at Opawa, of 800 acres, as a reserve for a College. The Commissioner of Crown Lands at Blenheim iucludes, in a similar return which he has sent, 800 acres at Opawa. Do you know whether the College has two reserves of 800 acres each, described as Opawa? —No, we have only the one. But I can explain that: It was a grant to us, and it was on our plans here in Nelson before the separation from Marlborough took place, and, after the separation, all the plans relating to Marlborough property were sent to the Marlborough Eegistration Office, and therefore you have got the return twice over. 3057. Block B, in the City of Nelson, is returned by the Commissioner of Crown Lands as 17 acres, while your return sets it down as 17$ acres ? —My return is correct; it is taken from the grant. 3088. Then, besides these lands, I understand that the Board of Governors of the Nelson College has a considerable estate in money ? —Tes. 3089. Can you state to the Commission how that estate was created ? —I am not conversant with this matter from the beginning; but, to the best of my knowledge, a certain sum was paid over by the Crown to the Nelson Trust Fund, and they set apart £20,000 for a college. Part of this money went in erecting the College, and the other part formed the endowment which is now let out. In fact, they did not hand over the whole in cash ; they handed over certain mortgages, upon which they had lent money, making up the whole sum of £20,000. 3090. The Chairman.] Amongst the properties belonging to the College, there are some leasehold properties ? —Tes. 3091. Would you state where they are ?—The whole of the Eiwaka sections are leased ; I think I have stated in my letter what they were let at. 3992. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In the granting of leases what means does the Board of Governors adopt to secure the best rental—a rental at market rates ? —By advertising the land for tender in most cases. These Eiwaka leases have not fallen in yet, and the plan has not been tried with them. But the Amuri land, for instance, was let last time at more than double the previous rent, iv consequence of its being put up for tender, and the same with the Opawa property. The town acres were let on building leases. They were let at a very low rent, the land being very inferior, and for a term of ten years. There are two of those acres unimproved and unoccupied ; they have been advertised, and every effort has been made to let them, but without success. 3093. Are these lands let on long leases ? —From ten to fourteen years—fourteen years generally. 3094. Do you think a longer lease of something like forty-two years would be likely to produce an offer? —I think that twenty-one years would be a fair period in a young colony, though I think a long lease would be of advantage to the College. I was of that opinion with regard to the Amuri land, which is let on a short lease. 3095. And, I suppose, you would hold that that would apply more decidedly to town lands than to rural lands ? —I am not quite sure of that. Town lands vary so much, according to circumstances, that I do not think it would be such a great advantage in the case of those town lands; there are only six acres. 3096. But town lands would be usually leased for building purposes ?—Tes. 3097. And it would not be worth any one's while to take them on a short lease ?—I think most of them are leased for fourteen years. We shall not get any more rent for them when the leases fall iv. 3098. I observe that, iv your letter, you say that for some time to come you do uot anticipate any material increase iv the aggregate amount of rents ? —No, I do not. 3099. Is that because the leases will not fall in for a long time, or because you think that the maximum value for some time to come has been obtained ? —Because of the latter reason, which applies particularly to the Eiwaka Swamp. It is subject to floods: in fact, for one of the sections we shall uot receive any rent until the end of the term, which has now very nearly expired, and the present tenant has been promised that if he complies with certain conditions he shall have a renewal of the lease on the same terms. - But it would not do to give him a very long lease at that. The fifty acres were almost submerged in silt and timber, and damaged by perhaps the most disastrous flood that has ever occurred there since it was a settled country. 3100. I observe, by a comparison of the balance-sheets, for the last three years, that the value of the estate has improved by about £1,500. Does that, so far as you know, indicate that tho governors have a larger income than is absolutely required by the work they have in hand ? —I do not think the governors have a larger income than will be required. For instance, at the present time the College requires enlarging; being a wooden building it is constantly requiring repairs, and the increased accommodation now in course of construction will cost fully £600; and there are all the extras. The building will require a considerable expenditure upon it before many years. 3101. So that you would regard this apparent accumulation as being in the form of an assurance or a contingency fund ? —Tes. You will notice that there is no sum set apart for a building fund. I have always urged that there should be a sum set apart annually, because in the course of so many years the College itself wiU want renewing, or very nearly so, if not altogether. It is a wooden building and is perishing continually ;it has now been erected for nearly twenty years. I think whatever accumulatiou there is will be required for the building itself for some time to come.

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Tuesday, Ist April, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E,, in the chair. Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Sale, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Shand. The Eev. J. C. Andrew, M.A., was sworn and examined. 3102. The Chairman.] Tou are Principal of tho Nelson College ? —Tes. 3103. How long have you held that position ?—Something over two years. 3104. What was your educational experience before you received your present appoiutment ?—I have had at different times a good deal of educational experience. To begiu with, I was at a good school myself, and I was undergraduate at a good college of a good University—University College, Oxford. I was for some little time at its commencement one of the assistant masters at the northern Church of England School at Eossall, in Lancashire, which is now one of the great schools of England, and which began to be one of the great schools when I was one of the masters there. After that, on being elected Fellow of Lincoln College, for some time I was a " coach," and took private pupils, some of whom distinguished themselves in the University of Oxford. After that I was Greek lecturer —an office held by John Wesley in former years—in Lincoln College, Oxford. I was then appointed mathematical lecturer, aud was afterwards tutor at Lincoln College, Oxford, for a good many years ; several of my pupils took the highest honours, both in classics and mathematics. I was never public examiner in the University of Oxford, but I had the offer of being put in nomination as mathematical examiner, just when I had made up my mind to come out to New Zealand, aud I declined the offer in consequence of being about to emigrate. But, of course, that does not imply that I should have been appointed examiner, because the appoiutment has to be confirmed by Convocation: still, I never heard of a man being nominated and not being appointed. I may also mention, while referring to my educational experience, that I w ras on one or two occasions examiner for the University of New Zealand scholarships, and that I once went on behalf of tho University on a tour of inspection, to see in what state the affiliated institutions were, shortly after the University commenced. 3105. Have any important changes taken place in tho organization, curriculum, staff, or objects of the College since you became Principal ? —No. Matters of detail have beeu slightly altered, but there has been no change of importance. 3106. AVhat are the duties of tho Principal of the College ? —His duties are to take the general superintendence of all the work that goes on in the College, to take the upper classes himself, and to see that the under-masters do their duty by occasionally examining and taking the lower classes. 3107. What are the relations of the Principal to the governing body ? —The Principal is appointed by the governing body to hold office during good behaviour, and he gives a bond to the amount, I think, of £200, which will be recovered in case ho absents himself or leaves the place without giving due notice. In the same way the governors, if they dismiss the Principal suddenly, would give him £200 instead of the formal notice. In saying £200, I am not certain that I am giving tho correct amount. 3108. Professor Shand.] What is the length of notice required on either side ?—I think it is three months. 3109. The Chairman.] What are the relations existing between the Principal and the other teachers ?—As a matter of law I believe the other teachers are appointed by the governors, but, as a matter of fact, the governors always attend to the recommendation of tho Principal in regard to the appointment or dismissal of any of the other masters. Practically the Principal has the appointment and dismissal of any of the other masters, subject, of course, to the approval of the governors. 3110. According to j rour experience have these relations between the Principal and the other masters worked well in practice ?—Exceedingly well. 3111. Is there a minimum age fixed for admission to tho College?—Tes; the minimum age at present is, I believe, nine years; but I understaud that the governors are about to increase it, although that is a matter which is not yet settled. 3112. Is there any entrance examination, and, if so, what is its nature? —There is an entrance examination —that is, the boys are brought to the Principal to see that they are capable of reading and of writing English from dictation, and have a knowledge of elementary arithmetic. 3113. Is there a division of the school into an upper and a lower department ?—There is no formal division of the school into such departments, although practically there exists one. As a matter of fact those classes which go to the Principal are looked upon as the upper school; but there is no formal rule about it. 3114. Professor Shand.] What forms are those? —The higher classics, tho higher English, and the higher history. 3115. I mean how many forms would that cover?— Two forms, really; but the classes are a little intermixed, from the fact that some of the boys are much farther advanced in mathematics than in classics, and some boys are alternately in an upper and lower division —it arises from the nature of things in the colony. It is unfortunate that it is so, but it cannot be helped as things are. 3116. There is no formal division, then, between the lower and upper?—No ; at tho same time there is a division recognized in practice. 3217. The Chairman.] How many different subjects does a pupil study as a general rule ? —That is a somewhat difficult question to answer, because the number varies a good deal with the general character of the pupils from one year to another ; but I think you will find the subjects taught in the prospectus, which the Secretary will be able to furnish you with. Lessons are given occasionally—when there are students who follow those subjects—in botany and physics, but it is only occasionally. 3118. How many hours in the week does a student attend the school ? —Twenty-six hours. 3119. Is Saturday a holiday?— There is a half-holiday on Saturday and on Wednesday. There are four full days of five hours, and two half-days of three hours.

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3120. Do you know whether many of your pupils receive assistance out of school in the prepara- . tion of their work ?—Those who board in the establishment have with them, during the preparation of their lessons, one of the junior masters, who is supposed now and again to give them some assistance ; and about half the school board in the establishment. 3121. Do you approve of this assistance being given to the students ?—I see no harm in it, but every possible good. Of course it depends on the assistance being given with judgment; but assistance given with judgment is no doubt a very good thing. 3122. I presume there are fixed hours for study as regards your boarders? —The hours in the evening are fixed—there are hours for preparation in the evening. 3123. What arrangements have been made for the teaching of science in the school ? —We have a certain amount of chemical apparatus belonging to the institution, and now and again lecturers have been engaged by the governors to give a course of lectures to the pupils in physics, with experiments. 3124. Is drawing taught as part of the school course? —-Drawing is taught in the school; it is a voluntary subject, and is taught beyond tho hours already mentioned. 3125. Professor Shand.] How many hours per week? —I am not certain, oft-hand, whether it is two or four; but the drawing-master is a painstaking man, and he does not grudge his time to the pupils. 3126. Professor Sale.] It is taken out of the play hours?—Tes. 3127. The Chairman.] Is there a library connected with the school ?—There are a certain number of books, perhaps hardly worth calling a library, but still a very considerable number of volumes — works of reference for the boys, and also some lighter works of instruction and entertainment for them to read and amuse themselves with when they are ill, or on a rainy day. The light reading chiefly consists of modern reviews, and a few of the newspapers, such as the Spectator, and Saturday Beview, and Punch. 3127 a. Are there any special conditions under which this library is accessible to the students ?— The library is under the charge of the resident master, and of courso there are restrictions ; the boys are not allowed to take the books as they like, but must apply to the resident master for the loan of them. 3128. Is there a gymnasium attached to the school?—Tes. 3129. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the use of the library confined to the boys who arc boarded in the establishment? —Not necessarily, but practically it is. 3130. Professor Shand.] Is there a master employed to teach the boys gymnastics ?—Two of the junior masters constantly amuse themselves by sharing in the gymnastic exercises of the boys, but they are not paid for it or professionally employed. 3131. The Chairman.] It is not a compulsory part of the school course ? —No ; but drill is a compulsory part of the curriculum. Drill is not included in the twenty-six hours' work which I mentioned. 3132. Has the curriculum of the school been planned with the object of bringing it into relation with the University course ? —Tes, of the upper school; and of the lower school indirectly, as bringing it into relation with the upper school—of the upper school directly, and of tho lower school indirectly. 3133. Has the curriculum been in any way affected by the affiliation of the College to the University ?—To a certain extent it has. 3134. Perhaps you could say to what extent, and in what direction ? —Affiliation to the University has given the Principal a much better standing, in insisting on Latin and philology being thoroughly taught; also Greek. 3135. Professor Sale.] Do you find that parents, since affiliation, are more willing that their sons should be carried further in those subjects ? —Not having been connected with the institution before it was affiliated, as Principal, I am not able to give an answer to that question ; but I have my own impression, which is that the curriculum has been affected to a certain extent, and that the standard has been raised. 3136. The Chairman.] Are there any respects in which the course of study has been arranged rather in deference to the wishes of the parents than in accordance with your own views ?—As far as Greek is concerned, decidedly so. If parents object to their boys learning Greek it is not insisted upon. The same applies also to French and German—it is optional with the parents whether their boys learn French or German. The same is the case with reference to a certain amount of instruction which, in accordance with tho foundation of the institution, is given in pietate, which, I presume, is religion ; Eoman Catholics and Jews are not required necessarily to be present at the prayers with which the College opens, or to attend the lecture on the Greek Testament. As a matter of fact they do not object; but it would not be insisted upon if they did object. 3137. Are boys of all religious denominations permitted to attend the College?—Tes. 3138. Would you favour the Commission with your views regarding the necessity, or desirability, of maintaining separate secondary schools for girls and boys ?—i certainly think it highly desirable that the sexes should bo kept distinct at an adolescent age ; perhaps at a very early age they need not be kept distinct. 3139. What is the number of teachers employed in the College?— The Principal and three other masters and a modern-master permanently on the staff, and a drawing-master, who attends in extra hours —five, you may say. 3140. I think you said there was a drill-master ? —Tes ; there is a drill-master as well. 3141. How often in the week does he attend ?—Two or three times a week. 3142. Do you consider the staff sufficient for the present number of pupils?— The staff is sufficient, but barely sufficient; it was quite adequate until recently. It will bo more sufficient in the course of a few weeks, when the building at present in progress is completed, than it has been for the last few weeks ; because, owing to the increase in the number of pupils, the place is cramped for room. With ample appliances and room a less number of teachers will do than when boys are crowded, together too much.

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3143. Are any of the staff, exclusive of yourself, University graduates ?—Mr. Mackay, the resident master, is a Master of Arts of Aberdeen, and an ad eundem Master of Arts of the University of New Zealand, Mr. Barnicoat, and Mr. Firth, the two junior masters, were both scholars of the University of New Zealand, but they are not graduates ; I hope, some day, they will proceed to their degree. 3144. What is the number of pupils now on the roll of tho school?— About 120, speaking off-hand. 3145. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is there a daily register of attendance kept?—A register is not formally kept daily; but all boys who are absent have to account for their absence or arc punished. 3146. Is there any record of the absences ? —There is no permanent record ; the record perishes each week. 3147. So that the school authorities are not able to make- a return of the average attendance as distinct from the numbers on the roll ?—Tes ; they are able to make approximately, aud within a very small percentage, a return of the average attendance. The average attendance, of course, varies considerably with the weather. As one-half of the school, or thereabouts, live in the town, and some in the country, as much as eighteen or twenty miles away, the attendance is very much affected by the weather. The attendance on tho whole is quite as good as could be expected. 3148. The Chairman.] Tou have stated the number of pupils at 120—has any considerable variation taken place in the number since you became Principal? —The number of pupils has increased steadily since I have been Principal of the College. 3149. What might have been the number upon your accession to office ?—About eighty. 3150. Could you give an approximate statement of the number of pupils drawn from the professional, trading, and operative classes respectively?—ln New Zealand, in fact in most new countries, the various occupations and means of livelihood are not so clearly specialized as in older and fully developed communities. I fiud some difficulty in drawing a clear line of distinction between the professional, trading, and operative classes. As a matter, however, of approximate and general conclusion, I think that about two-thirds of the names on the College books come from the professional classes and those liable to land-tax. 3151. What are the arrangements of the College with regard to terms and vacations, and occasional holidays ?—The year is divided into four quarters, beginning the lst January, the lst April, the lst July, and the lst October. Theoretically, the holidays during the year are limited to ten weeks, of which, some six or Beven are in the summer, a fortnight in the winter, and a week or so at the other quarters or near the other quarters. 3152. And about occasional holidays?— Occasional holidays, practically, are at the discretion of the Principal, but theoretically they are not. Theoretically they ought to be included in the ten weeks prescribed in the statutory regulations for holidays. 3153. Professor Shand.] Are many such holidays given during the year?— Now and again there are occasional holidays given. It is a little difficult to give a precise answer to that question, because many of the occasional holidays are only partial holidays. Once a month a holiday—if you like to call it so —is given, not to the whole school, but to all the boys who have obtained during that month above a certain number of marks. Now-, that is not a school holiday ; all the boys who do not get up to a certain number of marks attend as usual. 3154. The Chairman.] I presume you found these holidays and vacations established when you took charge ?—Exactly so. 3155. Are they satisfactory to you, as Principal?—Tes; on the whole, they are so. 3156. Does the College building afford sufficient accommodation ? —At present, No ; the week after next it will; the carpenters are at work there at present. 3157. Is there a sufficient allowance made by the authorities for procuring maps, models, diagrams, scientific apparatus, and appliances, &c. ?—Tes. 3158. Are there any arrangements for the periodical examination of tho school? —Tes ; the school is examined by an outside examiner once a year—in December. 3159. Are there prizes given then ? —Tes ; the governors are exceedingly liberal in giving prizes, and most of the masters, as well, give prizes for particular subjects. 3160. Professor Shand.] How are these prizes awarded? —They aro generally awarded on the report of the outside examiner; but, at the same time, good conduct and general proficiency are, to a certain extent, taken into account. For instance, if the examiner reports two boys very nearly equal, and one is a bad lad and tho other is good, the good lad will get tho prize. Ceteris paribus, some allowance is made for the general behaviour. 3161. That is decided by the Principal?— The Principal is always consulted. 3162. The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability of a general system of inspection and examination of secondary schools, and as to the character and extent of such inspection and examination ? —That is a very wide question. On tho whole, lam inclined to think it is desirable that there should be some schools in New Zealand independent of any general Government system of inspection. A general system of inspection is apt to produce too great a uniformity and rigidity in our method, and to bring all schools exactly to the same type, which typo becomes stereotyped. A certain amount of emulation and competition is better kept up by retaining some schools absolutely independent of Government inspection. 3163. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the same objection would apply to a system of inspection conducted by the University ? —I think, if the system of inspection conducted by the University were an absolute necessity, it would. But if the different institutions voluntarily submitted themselves to the inspection, it would alter the case. I think that, to a certain extent, tho independence, at any rate, of some educational institutions is a very good thing. 3161. The Chairman.] What punishments are in use in the College, and by wdiom are they inflicted ? —Well, as a rule, any punishment may be inflicted in the school. As a matter of fact, corporeal punishjuent used to be very common iv the school, but since I have been there it has been almost unknown.

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I have not said it shall not be inflicted —it is a good thing, like hanging, to keep in terrorem— but I have never struck a boy myself, and whenever one is touched—which is tho rarest thing in the world—by any of the other masters, the circumstance is reported to me. Impositions, and the loss of halfholidays, are the commou punishments, and keeping within bounds for the boarders. 3165. Do any impediments of a special character exist in the way of the efficiency of the school ?— I am not aware of any. 3166. What are the arrangements made for tho boarding of pupils from a distance? —The resident master receives boarders into the school establishment. The boarding is part of the school establishment. As long as there is room for them, any boys who are capable of entering the school are received as boarders. 3167. Where there is a boarding establishment in connection with a school, such as yours, do you think it ought to bo placed under the charge of the headmaster, or of one of the other masters, or of some one unconnected with the school ? —lt seems to me that it is a matter about which different opinions might be held; but the present system adopted in the case of tho Nelson College, by which it is under the direct charge not of the Principal, but of the resident master, works very well. 3165. Are any of the pupils attending your College boarded with private families?— That is a question I cannot very well answer off-hand. There are several 'pupils, I believe, who come from a distance, and who live with friends and connections, but on what footing they live—whether their boarding is paid for —I do not know. 3169. Do many pupils come up to your school from the public primary schools ? —A certain number of scholarships are awarded by the governors every year to the best pupils from the public primary schools. These come up, and also some others. 3170. Could you give us a general idea of what proportion of your pupils come from the primary schools ?—The provincial scholars, i.e., those lads who gain the scholarships offered by the governors for competition to the primary public schools, of course come from those schools, and, as a rule, do them credit. Excluding these, by far the greater part of the pupils at Nelson College, say some 75 per cent., are drawn from other sources. 3171. As a rule, do the boys from the primary schools come up well prepared ?—They do ; very well prepared, in the subjects which are taught in tho primary schools. 3172. Is there any difficulty iv assigning to these boys their place in the school ? —There is some little difficulty, from the fact that the dead and modern languages arc not taught in the primary schools, and they are taught in the institution of which lam Principal. I may say that, to some extent, the same difficulty exists with regard to mathematics ; they geuerally come up from the primary schools without a knowledge of algebra or Euclid. 3173. Does it appear to you that the primary-school course is the best preparation for entering a secondary school ? —No. 3174. I think you have already told us that there are scholarships at the College?—Tes; and the boys from the primary schools who get the scholarships do very well, but they are the pick of the primary schools. 3175. Are there any scholarships from the primary schools which may be held at your College ? — The governors of Nelson College award a certain number of scholarships every year to scholars from the primary schools, and those scholars generally turn out well. 3176. Professor Shand.] There are Education Board scholarships in addition to these, I think ?— Ido not know; the Secretary will be able to give that information. 3177. The Chairman ] Could you inform the Commission how many pupils from Nelson College have taken University junior scholarships ?—There were two pupils from Nelsou College who took University junior scholarships at the late examination. Out of three University junior scholarships obtained m New Zealand, two of the pupils who gained them —and none of the failures —came from Nelson College, and one of them, Fleming, was a provincial scholar from a primary school, and two and a half years ago knew no Latin whatever; and I am under tho impression that the other, Harkness, was a provincial scholar too, but I do not like to speak with certainty on that point. 3178. Do you think that the number of junior scholarships offered by the University yearly is sufficient ?—Tes, for the present; for this reason, that there appear to be more scholarships offered than are gained. 3179. Do you think that the examination now prescribed by the University of New Zealand is a suitable one ? —Tes, on the whole. 3180. Have you any opinion to offer as to the relations which ought to subsist between secondary schools and the University ? —I do not know that I have any opinion to offer on that point at present that would be of much value. Of course, everyone has a different opinion about tho business of a Uhiversity. My own opinion of a University in a country like Now Zealand is that abstractedly it is best as an examining body with no necessary connection with any subordinate institution, but that, as a matter of practice, the connection between the affiliated institutions and the TTniversity does do a great deal of good ; that, theoretically, the University of New Zealand, being an examining body, ought to confine itself to examinations, but that, practically, a certain connection between the affiliated institutions and the University produces an amount of emulation, and a feeling that tho upper boys may disgrace the University if they do not read well and study, and so does good. 3181. Bey. W. J. Habens.] As an affiliated institution, does the Nelson College maintain a staff of teachers specially devoted to instruction designed to prepare for the University ? —Tho Nelson College maintains a staff of teachers perfectly capable to give instruction to all the members of tho Uuiversity who are on its books. 3182. There are no special members of the staff who are told off?— There would be if there were pupils requiring it. As it happens, there are no pupils requiring any special instruction. The staff are quite sufficient to give instruction to all tho members of the University who are on the books; but if there were any member of the University who required special instruction in chemistry, botany, or any subject of that kind, a special teacher would be appointed at once for him—lectures would bo provided for him. 20— H. 1.

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3183. What is the number of undergraduates on the books ? —I really cannot say, off-hand, but you will see by the University Calendar ; it is not very many. 3184. I mean, how many students now in attendance at the College are undergraduates? —That question, again, is not very easy to answer. Those two junior scholars who were appointed the other day, I suppose, would not be included in theory—although they would in practice —because they have not yet taken the formal declaration of matriculation. 3185. Professor Shand.] I think you might reasonably include them ? —Still they are not included theoretically, because they are not really members of the University until they have taken the formal declaration of matriculation. 3186. That is a mere formal matter. If you told us the number, including those two, I think it would be the correct answer ?—There are three members of the University at present actual resident students at Nelson College, and there are two other members of the University who are masters in the College, and who, in the course of time, will proceed to their degrees as well. 3187. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Besides those there are two junior scholars ? —No, I am including the two junior scholars. 3188. Professor Sale.] Would you wish to include the masters?— They are supposed to be preparing as far as they* can, and intend to go on to their degree. 3189. Professor Shand.] In a private way ? —Tes, in a private way. There are three, then, actually under instruction at present. 3190. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does the presence of these undergraduates among the pupils require any division into higher and secondary work in the school ? —To some extent it does. They have a standing by themselves, but some of the better boys are put with them. 3191. Do you think that the attendance of undergraduates at the College is at all limited by the small number of the staff ?—No. 3192. Supposing there were women who desired to study for a University degree in Nelson, does your college offer them any facility for study ? —Not that I am aware of —not as a College, not formally and officially. There are one or two ladies in .Nelson who talk of studying for a University degree, and the Principal of the College and the other masters are always ready to help them ; but that is not part of their formal duties. 3193. Is the expense of tuition and of board at the College the same for undergraduates as it is for ordinary schoolboys ?—Tes. 3194. And are they under the same discipline?—Tes. To a certain extent that answer must be taken with some modification, because, of course, young men in the position of undergraduates of the University have a certain amount of liberty allowed them which would not be accorded to the small boys. 3195. Is the income of the College sufficient for tho maintaining of a proper supply of University instruction ? —I must refer you to the Secretary for an answer to that question. 3196. It is rather a matter of opinion. The question is not, simply, Has the College sufficient income? but, Has the College, in your judgment, a sufficient income to enable it to supply University instruction to a sufficient degree? —Yes, for the number of University students who are likely to be found at present; it has not, of course, to an unlimited degree. 3197. Professor Sale.] Practically, I suppose, for your University undergraduates along with a few others, forming the highest class in classics and the highest class in mathematics?—Tes, and the highest class in English literature, the highest class in history, ancient and modern, and the most advanced class in modern languages, and —although just now they do not do so, from the change that takes place in the pupils of a school—they would form, and have formed at other times, the highest class in botany and physics. As might be expected, the undergraduates of the University, as scholars of the University, are higher than the rest of the school in all subjects. 3198. I mean to say, they are simply the same as ordinary classes, only they arc the highest class? —They are not quite the same as the other classes ; they stand on a more intimate and friendly footing with the teachers than tho boys in the lower school do. They stand on the footing of pupil and lecturer far more than that of boy and master. 3199. The Chairman.] Eeturning to tho subject of the University of New Zealand, do you think the mode of appointing the members of the Senate and the Chancellor is a satisfactory one?—l think it would be a very good thing if the University had acquired the number of undergraduates which would entitle it to itself elect a certain proportion of the members of the Senate. And, of course, how far the present mode is satisfactory or not depends upon how far you agree with the Government who happen to be in power. 3200. Then I understand you to mean that, until there is a sufficient number of graduates, the appointments should remain with the Government of the colony ? —I do not see very well how, until there is a sufficient number of graduates, it could be changed ; but I do think it would be an advantage if the ad eundem graduates were allowed to bo on the Convocation, as if they were actual graduates of the University of New Zealand. 3201. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it would be an advantage if affiliated institutions of a certain defined standard had some representation on the Senate ? —As a matter of fact, they have very considerable representation on the Senate. Most of the affiliated institutions have members of their own staff upon the Senate. 3202. Tou would not wish to see that made a part of the constitution of the University, rather than an accident ?—Bather an accident; leave it to adjust itself naturally, as it almost certainly will. 3203. The Chairman.] Do you know whether any practical inconvenience has arisen from the meetings of the Senate having been held in different parts of the colony ? —There is a certain amount of practical inconvenience, from the length of -time required iv members from one part of the colony getting to the most remote extremity from their own places of residence. As a matter of practice, no doubt it would bo more convenient if the meetings of the Senate were held in some central position. 3204. The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion as to what body ought to conduct the matricu-

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lation examination for the University ? —ln my mind, it is pretty nearly an open question; but, at the . same time, if the matriculation examination for the University could be made identical with and equivalent to the senior Civil Service examination, I think it would be much better that it should be conducted by the University, and be general. The question of matriculation examination is a difficult one. It has for a great many years divided the old Universities of Oxford and Cambridge. I dare say Professor Sale could tell you that he was matriculated by private examination ; whereas .Oxford always has a public matriculation examination. 3205. Have auy holders of junior scholarships at your College proceeded to their degree up to the present time? —Up to the present time they have not. 3206. Rev. W. J. Habens] Are you sufficiently acquainted with the history of the junior scholars of past years to say what has become of them ? —Possibly not all of them, but of one or two I think I am. Baruicoat is at present assistant master in Nelson College ; Burnett is a surveyor in the service of the Government; Soy is a surveyor in private practice ; Severne died of overwork ; Harkness is the master of Bishop's School in Nelson ; and Bullard, I believe, is in the Government service. 3207. Professor Bale.~\ Can you explain why so few have gone on for their examinations for the University degree, —that none, in fact, have gone on ?—There are two whom I have mentioned who, you may say, will go on for their degree. The reason, I suppose, why so few" go on is want of means, and being obliged to earn their livelihood ; and of course the occupations by which they have been earning their livelihood have taken up so much time that they have not been able to pursue their studies so as to pas 3 with certainty. 3208. Rev. W. J. Habeas.] Do you think an increase of the amount of each scholarship would obviate the difficulties which have stood in the way of these men ? —To a certain extent, no doubt, it would. If the scholarships were considerably increased in value no doubt more would go on. lam speaking of junior scholarships. But, at the same time, the system of senior scholarships has made a change, and I do not know that it would be necessary to increase the junior scholarships at present, because a lad who does well will, in all probability, get a seuior scholarship which will help him. The system of senior scholarships instituted by the University will meet that objection now. It is a very important practical question, and the University has adopted the solution of awarding senior scholarships. The University has apparently felt the evil, which is evident, and provided a remedy. 3209. Professor Sale.] Have any students matriculated from the Nelson College besides those who took junior scholarships ? —Tes. 3210. Rev. W. J. Habens.] What is the average age of students who matriculate ?—The number is so small that an average would hardly be worth anything —between seventeen and nineteen. 3211. Have you formed any opinion as to the miuimum age at which matriculation might be allowed?— The University of New Zealand itself—and I do not see any reason to differ from its opinion—has come to the conclusion that it ought to be fifteen; its junior scholarships cannot be gained by lads under fifteen. 3212. The Chairman.'] What is your opinion of the present University regulations, and the standard prescribed for the B.A. degree? —That the standard is sufficiently high, and not too high; that the University degree is a really substantial thing. 3213. Rev. W. J. Habens.] And do you think that the degree of M.A. should be conferred without examination, or that it is desirable to require a further examination?— The minutes of the proceedings of the Senate of the University of New Zealand will very shortly be in your hands, -when you will see that that question came before the Senate, and that it was determined that there should be a certain examination for the M.A. degree. 3214. The question was asked rather to elicit an opinion from one well qualified to judge ?— "Well, I am inclined to think there should be an examination of some sort for the M.A. degree, and so thought the University Senate. 3215. The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion as to the propriety of having the examiners for the University appointed from residents in New Zealand?—lt seems to me that it would be much better, if it could be done without exciting local jealousies. But, at the same time, while our population is so small, and the persons capable of acting as examiners are so few, and those few, or most of them, connected with different educational bodies in the colony, practically we have not the men to do it without causing jealousy ; but that difficulty will gradually diminish. There is considerable inconvenience, no doubt, caused by having to go outside the colony for examiners ; but that inconvenience has, perhaps, a less practical importance than the jealousy which would be excited b} r having examiners connected with educational institutions in the colony appointed. But, as time goes on, and we have more men of letters and men of leisure in the colony, there will be no need to go outside for examiners. 3216. Rev. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that all candidates for degrees should be required to keep terms, and actually attend lectures during their whole undergraduate course, or be admitted simply on examination ?—My opinion is that they might very fairly bo admitted simply on examination. But, at tlie same time, I can very well understand other persons holding the opinion that it would be better that they should attend a certain course. It is a doubtful question. 3217. Professor Sale.] Would it not be almost a necessary step, if that course were adopted, to do away with affiliated institutions altogether? —To do away with the affiliation, but at the same time —and again lam speaking partly from imperfect information—l fancy the University of London has institutions affiliated to it, and gives degi'ees on examination, and requires certain attendance on terms, and yet is only an examining body, as the University of New Zealand is. The affiliation may bo nominal, but still it exists; they havo not thought it desirable in the London University to do away nominally with the affiliation to the University. 3218. Professor Shand.] Would you not require University scholars to attend lectures?— Not necessarily; if they came up for their examinations and acquitted themselves with proficiency. 3219. The Chairman.] Do you think the University of New Zealand has assumed the form most suitable to the colony ? —Yes; the only form, in fact, which, in my opinion, is practicable in the colony for a colonial University. Of course there are certain matters of detail in the regulations, and so on,

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of the University of New Zealand which individual members may differ from ; but, as a whole, I think the University has assumed the form best adapted for the colony. 3220. Tou are no doubt aware of the general scope of tho inquiry prescribed for this Commission. The Commission would bo glad if, as a gentleman of considerable experience in educational matters, you would oiler any suggestions which may occur to you? —I am not aware that anything I could suggest would bo of any use to the Commission. I would humbly submit an opinion that constantly altering our educational institutions, even though you alter them for the better, is a practical evil. I am referring to any alterations which may be contemplated in the constitution of tho University of New Zealand. lam quite ready, as a matter of opinion, to state that even the alterations made by the University Senate themselves in many of thoir rules and regulations, and in the subjects of examinations, although they may be alterations for the better, would have been better left alone —that a certain fixity does good. Mr. H. C. Daniel was sworn and examined. 3221. The Chairman.] Tou have been for a very long time a settler in Nelson, I believe ? —Tes ; since 1843 ; immediately after the Wairau massacre. 3222. And I think you were Crown Lands Commissioner for some time? —Tes; until about three years ago —for eleven years previous to 1876. 3223. From your knowledge of the history of Nelson, perhaps you could tell us whether there were any endowments for educational purposes granted in tho province? —The only endowments that the New Zealand Company granted were out of their funds ; they set apart a portion of their funds specially for a college, and that was all they did. The subsequent endowments that were made—some land for the College in Nelson, and some for collegiate purposes at Motueka aud Massacre Bay —were made by Sir George Grey entirely on his own responsibility*. 8224. Professor Shand.] Did the New Zealand Company make no provision for elementary education? —No, none whatever ; nolhing but for this College. 3225. The Chairman.] How was this money procured ? —lt was a certain proportion out of the proceeds of the land sales. Speaking from memory*, I think 75 per cent, of the purchase-money was devoted to emigration purposes, and a certain other proportion to the College, and for religious purposes. 3226. Were there two distinct proportions, one for the College and one for religious purposes?— Tes, entirely distinct, if the scheme of the New Zealand Company had been carried out in its integrity, aud they had really had tho land to sell, and it had produced the sum estimated. Their scheme, as set forth in the prospectus of terms for the purchase of lauds in the second settlement of the New Zealand Company (Nelson), dated 15th February, 1841, was this: "The sum of £300,000 to be received by* the Company as the purchase-money of the lands now offered will be appropriated in the followingjinanner —viz., £150,000 to the exclusive purpose of emigration to this particular settlement. £50,000 to defray the Company's expenses in selecting the site and establishing the settlement: any surplus of this fund to be applied to the public purposes next mentioned. £50,000 for rendering the settlement commodious and attractive ; for such purposes it is intended to apply £15,000 to religious uses and endowments of colonists of all denominations; £15,000 to the establishment of a college in the settlement; and £20.000 towards the encouragement of steam navigation for the benefit of the settlement, by way of bounty. £50,000 to the Company for its expenses, and profit on the use of its capital." But, of course, they* did not sell anything like the £300,000 worth of land, aud, therefore, they could only give ihe proportions. 3227. Will you furnish the Commission with the history, so far as you can, of the foundation of Nelson College? —In the first place, I have given an extract from the prospectus of tho New Zealand Company*, by which you will see that the proposal to establish a college in the Nelson Settlement formed part of the original scheme. Upon the windiug-up of the affairs of the Company, an arrangement was entered into with the land purchasers, and sanctioned by the Government, that the management of any funds accruing under the scheme should be intrusted to a board of trustees resident in the settlement. In pursuance of this arrangement a sum of about £40,000 was, between the years 1852 and 1858, paid by the Lords of Her Majesty's Treasury to duly elected trustees, and, in carry ing out the arrangements, the trustees were not limited to the specific application of the funds to the exact purposes named in the terms of purchase, provided their general application to analogous purposes was maintained. During the year 1856 the trustees, having secured a site and buildings suitable for the purpose, opened a high school under the mastership of the Eev. Mr. Bagshaw*. lv 1857 the trustees came to the determination of handing over to a Board of Governors a certain portion of the funds under their administration, as a permanent endowment for a college, and, in accordance therewith, they did, by a deed of foundation dated on or about the 14th November, 1857, hand over to certain gentlemen named therein as governors a portion of the trust funds amounting to £20,000, together with an acre of land with dwelling-house and school buildings, then used for the p.trpose of the high school referred to above. 3228. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know of the existence of a society called the Nelson School Society ? —Tes. 3229. Is it within your knowledge that certain grants of public estate were made to that society* ? —I think there have been some grants—just sites for schools, no endowments. 3230. Do you know* whether these were intended to be for day schools or Sunday schools ?—lu all cases the Nelson School Society made the condition that the room or the ground should also be available for the use of Sunday schools. I think that was the invariable condition; because, to this day, many of the schoolhouses built on those sites are still open as Sunday schools ; whereas in the case of the other buildings which have been erected out of Government grants that privilege is not allowed, unless the inhabitants express a wish for it. 3231. Do you know whether the society is in any way promoting secular education at present ?— No, they have quite abandoned that; it was all handed over to the Government long ago, when the Provincial scheme came into force.

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3232. Do you know what educational work they arc carrying on ?—Only Sunday-school work. 3233. Aud, so far as you know, they are applying the small income derived from the grants that were made for education to the maintenance of Sunday schools? —I do not apprehend that they have any income from any grants. For instance, the building adjacent to what we call tho eel-pond is a Nelson School Society's building, but they have no revenue accruing from anything, though the Sunday schools are carried on by what may be termed the remnant of the Nelson School Society in accordance with the agreement entered into with the Government when the Crown grant was made. I fancy it has pretty well merged info Mr. Campbell's hands, who was the originator and founder of the society. 3234. Do you know the reserve in the City of Nelsou described as part of Block H, 3 roods iv area ?—Tes. 3235. Eescrved under authority of the New Zealand Company, and granted to the trustees of the Nelson School Society ? —Block H was not originally granted by the New Zealand Company. It was not intended for a school reserve ; the Company made no reserves for schools. But I think it was for the purposes of a market. It is the very piece of land I have now been referring to, and Mr. Fox, when ho was Eesident Agent, did make an arrangement to let them have a portion of that reserve. 3236. Do you know what the area of the whole reserve is ?—No. 3237. Iv a return, which I have, of all the reserves for educational purposes in Nelson, that reserve is stated at 3 roods—simply called part of H. But in a return I have from Mr. Campbell ho only acknowledges 2 roods. Do you know whether any part of that reserve is used for some other purpose ? —No. 3238. Tho probability is that it is the same piece of land differently described ?—Tes, that is it; except that a portion of the old reserve called II would be under water, and Mr. Campbell would perhaps only state the available building portion. 3239. Are you aware that the Nelson School Society has let all its buildings on a long lease to the Board of Education ? —Y^cs. 3240. And does the Nelson School Society derive any income from that ?—Yes. 3211. So far as you know, is that income applied to Sunday-school purposes ?—I do not know what they do with it; it is but a small income. There is only one building that lam aware of, aud that is the one that I have already mentioned. I had forgotten that they did receive rent from the Board. 3242. Are you in a position to say whether the Nelson School Society is carrying out the purposes of the trust under which it holds these lands ?—No. 3243. That means that you are not in a position to give an opinion ?—No, I am not. 3244. The Chairman.] Were you Commissioner of Crown Lands when a certain endowment was granted by Sir George Grey at Motueka? —I thiuk Mr. Domett was Commissioner then. 3215. In your official capacity did you ever ascertain what were the terms of the trust on which that estate was granted ? —No. 3216. Professor Sale.] Do you think the Nelson College, as it is now conducted, fairly supplies the wants of the community with respect to higher and secondary education ?—I think so. 3247. And is it used by all classes of society ?—Yes ; and there are special scholarships open to boys from all parts of the province. Marlborough, being part of tho original Nelson settlement, is also included within the scope of the Nelson College scholarships. 3248. But, irrespective of scholarships, do you consider that the fees are reasonable, aud such as place the College within the reach of parents in an ordinary position? —-Yes, I think so; for a number of persons whom you might not think very well-to-do in the world, but yet who are in comfortable circumstances —men employed in stores, for instance —send their sons there. lam acquainted with one man, a storeman, who has had two or three of his sons educated at the College; and I know of several persons in the country of a similar grade who have done the same. It is not a class school, or, if it is so, the fact is owing more to circumstances which arise, and because people will have class ideas. Mr. Pebcy B. Adams was sworn and examined. 3249. The Chairman.] You are a barrister-at-law ?—Tes. 3250. I think you are aware of the particular matter we wish to inquire into. The Bishop referred us to you to give us information about the leases of the estate at Motueka. Could you tell us what are the covenants in tho leases —I presume the leases are all on the same model?—l forget the number of leases, but nearly all contain a covenaut of renewal for twenty-one years, at an increased rent, if the bailiff should think fit to raise the rent; or, if the tenant objects to pay the higher rent, then it is to be fixed by arbitration in case of renewal. 3251. Professor Shand.] AVas the original period twenty-one years?—No; all the leases have not the covenant of renewal in them. 3252. The Chairman.] Is there any prohibition against sub-letting?—l think the tenant must not assign or underlet without the consent of the Bishop. The leases were all on printed forms, which wero filled,up as required, and I could furnish the Commission with a copy of one of these printed forms. 3253. Professor Shand.] Do you know whether the leases were originally put up to auction ? — I could not say. There was, originally, a Crown grant of all this Whakarewa estate. [Crown grant produced.] 3254. Professor Sale.] Dv the original leases mention the increased rental which the lands are to be liable to ? —No ; there is a clause to the effect that, if the lessor and lessee cannot agree as to the increased rent, the amount is to be fixed by arbitration. 3255. But the increase is in the first instance to be fixed by the bailiff? —I do not think it exactly says tho bailiff', but the person generally interested in the estate, who at present is Mr. Greenwood, who is acting as bailiff, collecting the rents and handing them over to the Bishop. On Mr. Greenwood's instructions we prepare the transfers of leases, and insert the conditions which he tells us. We do not know anything more about it than that. AYe are only solicitors to the trust to that extent. 3256. The Chairman.] As far as you know, the original conditions of these leases were fixed by

Mr. E. C. Daniel

April 1, 1879

Mr. P. B. Adams.

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j. Bishop Selwyn ?—-I believe they were, because this grant w*as iv 1853, and the leases date back to 1859. There was oue grant of 660 acres, and another grant of 418 acres 5 perches. 3257. Have you any idea what was the position of the property between the years 1853 and 1859 ? I think you said most of the leases commenced in 1859?— I think they did; but there must have been some before that. There were evidently existing leases over the land at the time. The deed is made subject to all existing leases, and there is a long list of leases which were over the property at the time. There is one, for instance, for fourteen years from 1855. 3258. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know whether any of these leases have been transferred for valuable consideration ?—I believe some of them have. I spoke to our managing clerk before I came here ou that point, and he said ho thought there had been such transfers some years ago. But if Mr. Greenwood, the bailiff, instructed us to prepare a transfer from oue of tho lessees to somebody else, I should do so, and send the document for the signature of tho Bishop, who would have to sign his consent to it; but that is all we know about it, because no funds pass through our hands in tho way of premium, even although a premium might be given. 3259. Have you sufficient knowledge of tho value of land generally in that district to enable you to say whether the rents that are now being received constitute a fair return ?—I should say they do. The land, and particularly some portions held under these leases, is not very good ; it is held under long leases ; and when a man holds land for a term of twenty-one years, he will put a certain amount of improvements on the land which will remain there when the lease lapses. Therefore I think the rent is not too small, considering the improvements a man will make ; and some of the land, I know, is in a very bad state, tho fences being down and the laud overrun with gorse. That is perhaps owing to the men having long leases. 3260. From what cause are the fences down ?—From the general remissness of the tenant to keep the property in repair, I suppose. Ho is bound by the terms of the lease to yield the property up in good and tcnantable repair, and, as he has not to do that for twenty-one years, he perhaps in the meantime allows the property to go to rack and ruin. 3261. Professor Sale.] Then he is not bound to maintain the property in repair, but only to yield it up iv good order at the end of the term ?—The covenant in the lease is, generally, to yield it up iv " good and tenantable repair." 3262. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know if there is any restriction upon the character of the crops which a man may take out of the land?— None whatever; I should say he is entitled to do whatever he likes with the laud. 3263. Do you know if it is customary in this part of New Zealand for landlords to impose any conditions as to crops ?—No, not iv this part of the colony ; no such conditions, at any rate, have come under our knowledge in drawing leases. In some short leases we insert a provision that the tenant is bound to consume all tho straw*, and provide manure'for the land—in fact, that ho is not to take everything out of the laud and put nothing iv. Mr. Alexander Mackay was sworn and examined. 3264. The Chairman.] What is your position iv tho Government service at present ?—I hold the position of delegate of the Governor under "The Native Eeserves Act, 1862;" I also hold the appointment of Civil Commissioner for the South Island. 3265. Both of these appointments are in connection with Native affairs ? —Yes. 3266. How long have you been in the Government service ? —About fourteen years. 3267. Tbe Commission understand that you have made certain reports, from time to time, with regard to an estate at Motuoka held by the Bishop of Nelson : would you bo kind enough to refer to your reports and quote those parts that bear upon that estate? —I never made auy special report in regard to the estate. The only information in reference to it which I have given, and which appears in print, is the evidence I gave before the Charitable and Educational Trusts Commission iv 1870. 3268. How was the estate acquired ? —Part of it was Crow-n land, and the largest portion was Native reserve land —land that was excepted in accordance with the New Zealand Company's scheme of settlement, 'and set apart subsequently by Commissioner Spain for the use aud occupation of the Natives. 3269. Could you tell us how much belonged to the Native reserves ?—There were 918 acres; that is the proportion of Native reserve estate that was allocated, and which is included in the Bishop's Trust endowment. 3270. Professor Sale.] And the remainder was laud belonging to the Nelson settlement ?—Tes, Crown land. The portion which formed part of the Native reserve estate includes all the valuable part of the endowment. The Crown land was very poor and very hilly laud. I have brought a plan of the endowment land for the information of the Commission. [Plan produced.] 3271. The Chairman.] Do you know whether the action of the Government in taking this Native reserve land for the purposes of the trust was viewed with dissatisfaction by the Natives ? —Tes, it was viewed with great dissatisfaction. 3272. Professor Sale.] Do you know whether, when this land was set apart by Sir George Grey, it w*as occupied and used ?—A portion of it was in the occupation of the Natives, and a portion in the occupation of tenants. 3273. Are you aware whether, at the time when Sir George Grey granted these Native lands for the purposes of the Motueka school, part of the lands were in occupation and yielding a revenue to the Natives? —Tes ; I glean that from the schedule which is appended to the grants, and caunot speak from personal knowledge. 3274. Then was that the chief reason why the Natives were dissatisfied ?—No; they were dissatisfied because they were dispossessed of a portion of the land. They were in actual possession and occupation themselves of a portion of the estate known as Whakarewa, and were dispossessed in consequence of the grant to the Bishop of New Zealand.

April 1, 1879,

Mr. A. MacTcay.

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3275. The Chairman."] I understand, then, that these tenants whose rights were protected when the grants were made, were not tenants of the Crown in the ordinary sense? —No ; they were not tenants of the Crown; they were tenants under the Native trust, and occupying Native reserve lands. 3276. And the rent derivable from their holdings was for the benefit of the Natives ?—Yes. It ■would perhaps give you a bettor idea of the position of the matter at the time, if I were to read a short account of the early history of these reserve 3 : Under the terms of the prospectus of the Nelson settlement, the proportion of land to be set apart as Native reserves in accordance with the New Zealand Company's scheme was 20,000 acres, to consist of 100 town sections of 1 acre each, 100 suburban sections of 50 acres each, and 100 rural sections of 150 acres each. The suburban and town sections were selected in 1842 by Mr. Thompson, the then Police Magistrate, in his capacity of Agent for Native Reserves. These lands were selected in the Town of Nelson, and in the suburban districts of Moutere and Motueka, and the selection was subsequently ratified by Commissioner Spain in 1841. These reserves were made in pursuance of the intention that a proportion of the territory ceded by the Native owners, equal to one-tenth, should be reserved, and held in trust by the New Zealand Company for the inalienable use of the Natives, the proceeds to be applied for the benefit of those Natives who had surrendered the land. The reserves so made were looked on as far more important to the Natives than anything that could be paid to them in the shape of purchase-money, as, however highly they were paid, the consideration given would only afford a brief enjoyment, and, when it had passed away, the recipients be but little better for the gift, while these lands would remain with them as a lasting possession for their maintenance, and for schools, hospitals, and other useful establishments. With regard to the management of these reserves it was intended to vest them in the Governor, the Bishop of New Zealand, and the Chief Justice. After a time the Chief Justice resigned, finding the duties incompatible with his official position, and, subsequently, the Bishop also retired from the management. In consequence of the establishment of trustees for Native reserves, as originally contemplated, not being carried out, the Government appointed Boards of Management, and in June, 1848, Messrs. Poynter, Carkeek, and Tinliue were appointed a Board of Management of the Native reserves for the District of Nelson. The Board retained the management of the property till the middle of the year 1853, when the sole management devolved upon Major Richmond, who was theu Crown Lands Commissioner, and who was ultimately succeeded, in the year 1557, by Messrs. Domett, Poynter, and Brunner, by appointment dated Ist December, 1556, as Commissioners under "The Native Reserves Act, 1856." In 1853 Sir George Grey granted a number of the Native reserve sections at Motueka —in all 91S acres—to the Bishop of New Zealand, as an endowment for an industrial school for the education of children of both races, and of children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean. This grant was looked upon as a violation of the contract on which the settlement was founded, and in contravention of the original intention for which the lands were set apart by the New Zealand Company. A special committee of the Nelson Provincial Council expressed their disapprobation of the grant, and a resolution was passed to memorialize the Secretary of State for the Colonies that the necessary steps might bo taken to set the grant aside; but, although permission was subsequently given to test its validity by a writ of scire facias, the matter was allowed to drop, as other interests were involved, which it was considered inexpedient to disturb. The origin of the numerous grants that have been made in various parts of the colony appears to have sprung from a correspondence in the years 1849 and 1851, between the then Governor, Sir George Grey, and Earl Grey, the Secretary of State for the Colonies, in which the Governor points out the advantages that would ensue to the promotion of industrial schools for the Natives if grants of waste lands of the Crown were made, to provide for the subsistence of the children educated thereat, and suggests that the advantages proposed should be extended to children of Natives of islands in the Pacific Ocean. Earl Grey, in reply, approved of the scheme as being salutai'y and politic, and expressed his satisfaction of the general sufficiency of the instrument by which it was proposed to convey tho lands to be set apart for the maintenance of the schools. Had the original intention been adhered to of setting apart Crown land as an endowment for these institutions, no objection could have been taken to the appropriation of land for so laudable a purpose; but, from some unexplained cause, these appropriations w Tere made to include lands set apart solely for the Natives, under express agreement with tho Imperial Government, under the terms of the prospectus of three of the settlements of the New Zealand Company, and as part of the consideration for the cession of Native territory. The purpose of the reserves was clear and exclusive, and forbade their use for general endowment, and, had the Native Trust Ordinance of 1844 been in operation, these appropriations for general purposes could not have been made, as its provisions expresßly forbade alienation except by lease, and declared all charges or incumbrances on the trust estate to be void. One of the chief causes, as explained before, of tho dissatisfaction continually expressed by the Natives of Motueka concerning the grant to the Bishop of New Zealand for an industrial school was, that a portion of the land included in it was specially allotted for their use and occupation by Commissioner Spain in 1544. In order that the case may be fully understood, it will be necessary to give a short account relative to the dedication of these lands, and the authority under which they were set apart. In accordance with the intention expressed by the Imperial Government to send out a Commissioner, with independent authority to investigate and determine the claims of the Company to land in New Zealand, and to decide upon the sufliciency of the purchasemoney paid to the Natives, Commissioner Spain was sent out from England expressly for the purpose, armed with the full power of the Crown itself. And, as the real consideration held out by the Company to the Natives, on its acquisition of territory from them, was a precise engagement to reserve for the benefit of the Native proprietors :i portion equal to one-tenth of the quantity ceded, it became the duty of tho Commissioner to see that the proportion agreed on was fairly and finally set apart. On the arrival of Commissioner Spain in Nelson, in 1844, to hold a Court to investigate the Company's claims to land in this district, after ratifying the selection of the Native reserve " tenths " made by Mr. Thompson, liß found that the Natives of Motueka were in occupation of eight suburban sections, comprising 400 acres, outside the quantity selected in satisfaction of the "tenths." He therefore directed that a similar number of the Native reserve sections should be exchanged, in lieu of the

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former, in order that faith might be kept with the Natives in conformity with the arrangement made by Captain Wakefield, the Company's Agent, to the effect that the Natives should be allowed to retain a considerable portion of the " Big Wood "at Motueka, then in cultivation by them. In addition to the first-named eight sections, Commissioner Spain added eight more out of the Native reserve estate, making sixteen in all, for the use and occupation of the resident Natives, out of which 350 acres were subsequently included in the school endowment. 3277. Professor Sale.] I understand that the Natives were very much dissatisfied at the time: have they continued to be dissatisfied ever since ? —Tes, up to a very recent date they hay long as any of the elder men were alive. 3278. Bey. W. J. Habens.] When you say that the Natives were dispossessed you mean they were deprived of their own personal use of the land ? —Y'es ; they had to remove to other portions of the estate. 3279. Are you referring now to portions of the trust estate?—Tes, the Native trust estate. 3280. Theirremoval, I suppose, was peaceably affected? —Yes. 3281. The Chairman.] What was the actual quantity of land that was in the occupation of the Natives ? —I could not say positively how much they had iv occupation ; I can only state generally as to the quantity that was allocated. 3282. If that estate had not been taken away from the Natives would it have been under your administration now ?—Yes ; it would be under my control as Governor's delegate. But the Natives suffered an injustice in more respects than that, because this property should have been entirely available to produce a revenue for Native purposes; but, instead of their getting occupation reserves allotted to them, irrespective of the tenths, in conformity with the resolutions passed at a conference held at Wellington in January, 1844, between the Government and the Company's principal Agent, the occupation-reserves were allotted to them out of this estate, which had been set apart for a special purpose. Then their estate was afterwards diminished by the portion included in the Bishop's endowment. 3283. I think you stated there was a memorial from the Provincial Council of Nelson on the subject ?—Tes. 3284. Was it sent Home ? —No. I am under the impression it was sent to the House of Eepresentatives. 3285. Was any action taken by the House of Bepresentatives in respect of that memorial ?—I think not, further than that permission was subsequently obtained by tho Council to try the validity of the grant; but by that time the Council had got lukewarm in the matter, and, being also afraid of interfering with other grants that had been made about tho same time, they took no further step iv the matter. One injustice done to the Natives was making the grant of their own land, which was set apart specially by the New Zealand Company in payment for the surrender of their territory, available for European children and the children of destitute persons in the Pacific Ocean. If it had been confined to Natives alone there would not perhaps have been quite so much objection to it. 3286. AVere the proceeds ever applied to the education of European children ?—The proceeds have never been applied to that object; but the fact remains that it is still available, aud European children could claim admission to any school established under the trust. 3287. Are there any matters within your knowledge, connected with the alienation of the reserve from the Natives, which you think ought to be set before the Commission ?—No ; I do not know of anything else. The trust has been administered, I think, to the best advantage. I think I have stated the points as regards the Native side of the question. 3288. Professor Sale.] I believe the people of the Nelson Province—the European settlers —also objected to the reserve being made, on the ground that it was devoted to sectarian purposes ? —Tes, that was oue of the reasons. 3289. And that view was taken by the Provincial Council of Nelson ? —Tes. 3290. Has any parallel case como within your knowledge of land set apart for the Natives being taken away iv that manner ?—Not lauds set apart as these were. There have been lands in other parts of the colony. There was a case of a somewhat similar character, where the Natives, of their own accord, made over land at Porirua. AYi Parata, and others of his tribe, iv that case, petitioned the House of Eepresentatives two sessions ago, and the matter was referred to the Native Affairs Committee, but it could do nothing. Then, afterwards, Wi Parata tried to upset the grant in the Supreixo Court, and failed ; and he petitioned the House last session to get a vote to cover the expense he had been put to, but the Committee declined to recommend any such vote. It w rould be quite impossible to take any steps in the Supreme Court to set aside these grants, until the decision of the Court of Appeal in the matter of the tenths is set aside. The whole case was tried in AVellington several years ago, and the Court decided that these lands wero lands unencumbered by any trust, and a Bill was introduced into the Assembly to give a legal status to those which were still under the control of the Government. 3291. The Chairman.] What is the Maori population iv the neighbourhood of this Motueka reserve at present?'—l think there are about forty-two Maoris altogether iv Motueka. 3292. Professor Sale.] There was a much larger number at the time when this reserve was set aside for the purposes of the trust? —Oh yes ; between 200 and 300. 3293. Cau you account for the decrease ? —lt has been chiefly owing to migration ; the mortality amongst them has not been so large. 3294. To what part of the colony have they migrated ? —They have gone chiefly to Taranaki. 3295. Are they connected with the Taranaki Natives by blood? —Tes; and they had landed interests there which induced them to return. 3296. The Chairman.] So far as you know, as a Government officer, have any considerable benefits accrued to the Native race through the establishment of this school at Motueka?—No, I do not think so. 3297. AVhat I mean is, have any great number of Maoris becu educated ? —Not of late ; not since

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the endowment has been made. They have always been averse to send their children ; the idea being that it would deprive them of their right to regain the property at some future time. 3295. The desire to regain possession of the land continued for some period after its alienation ? —Tes, for a very long time —until the population dwindled down to a very few ; in fact, until the whole of the elder people, who were first incensed at the property being taken away, had died. 3299. Professor Sale.] Do you know whether the children who are at present being educated at the school are the children of Natives at Motueka ?—No, not the whole of them ; some of the children are from a distance —two or three who were attending were from AVellington, and some from Wakapuaka. There are very few children at Motueka ; only nine under fifteen years of age. 3300. Do you think it is likely, if the revenue derived from the estate were increased, that any large number of Native children might be expected to attend from other parts of tho colony ?—I could not say. It is almost impossible to induce Native parents to send their children to a distance. It is the great difficulty the Government have to contend with in their endeavour to educate Native children. In most instances it is impossible to induce the parents to send their children away- from home. 3301. So far as you have seen of the education that is given to the children at the Motueka school, is it a good one?—Tes, I think so. The school was not inspected last year, but it was the previous year. 3302. The Chairman.] AVho is the inspector ? —The Eev. Mr. Stack, who is in charge of all the Native schools in the South Island. 3303. Is it his duty to inspect all those schools annually ? —Tes. He inspected the Motueka school in 1877 at the request of the Bishop ; he does not go there by order of the Government. 3304. Do I understand that the Government exercises no control over this school in seeing that it is properly conducted ? —There has been no control exercised over it. 3305. Professor Sale.] It is left entirely in the hands of the Bishop ? —Tes. 3305 a. The Chairman.] Does the building afford sufficient accommodation ?—They do not utilize the building which was originally put up for the purpose. The house occupied by the master in the village is used for school purposes. 3306. The building in which the education is being given is not on this reserve ?—No ;itis on European land where the master resides. 3307. Professor Sale.] And what has become of the school that was built upon the reserve ?—■ That is included in a leasehold to one of the tenants. 3308. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is that Te Uwa farmhouse ?—I do not know*. Had the school at Motueka been a popular institution it would, of course, have been available for all the Native children in the vicinity and from the surrounding districts, supposing, of course, there had been no local feeling in regard to it; but, as matters now exist, the trust, besides being deprived of a large portion of its estate, has also been put to the expense of establishing and maintaining schools in other places in order to bring education within the reach of the Native children. When I speak of "the trust" lam alluding to the Native trust, not the Bishop's trust. 3309. Professor Sale.] Then you really think that the creation of this Bishop's trust has done mischief, even to the cause of education amoug the Natives? —Tes, I think so. It has done mischief in this way : that, had the revenue been available in the same maimer as the other revenue belonging to the trust, it could have been allocated to better advantage, for educational purposes, in the various localities, which would, consequently, have been much better for the Natives than setting apart so large a proportion of the estate for a particular object in Motueka, which has never been favoured, owing to the various reasons that have been stated. Mr. John Samuel Browninu was sworn and examined. 3310. The Chairman.] Tou are in the service of the Government? —Tes, I am Chief Surveyor of the Nelson District. 3311. How long have you held that position ? —About three years. 3312. Have you been a resident iv Nelson for a longer period than that? —No. 3313. Are you aware whether there exists in the City of Nelson any provision for the education of girls, such as exists in Auckland, and, I believe, in Dunedin, where there are girls' high schools ?— There is no provision at all, beyond private ladies' schools. 3314. Has the want of secondary and superior education for girls been felt in this city ?—Very much indeed, in my own case, and in the case of several families throughout the place, who have been obliged to send their girls away seeking for higher education ; some have gone to England, and some to Victoria. In my owu case, ou coming to Nelson I found that there was nothing at all to be procured equivalent to higher-class education, and I decided to scud my girls to Victoria, on account of its superior advantages in that respect. Tho want of the means of such education here, I believe, is felt by many persons, and it also deters families from coming to Nelson to reside. I have heard one or two cases mentioned in which families have been prevented from settling here on that account. 3315. Has there been any effort made to establish a girls' high school in Nelson, as far as you know? —Just before I arrived in Nelson a movement was made by several of the most influential families in the place to see whether means could be adopted to provide a higher class of education for girls, but the effort resolved itself simply into a matter of a proprietary school, and fell to the ground. The people with families did not see their way to take the matter in hand purely as a speculation. 3316. In the case of girls being sent to A^ictoria, do they get their education in public or private schools ?—ln my own case they are being educated at a Government school; and I find it is generally so, and that the Government schools there provide high-class teaching for girls, which is largely availed of by the middle classes, who pay fees for extra subjects taught. 3317. Professor Shand.] Do you mean the primary schools in A rictoria ?—Tes, the State schools. There is provision in this colony by which a district high school may be established, but primary education must be taught in the same school. They are also obliged to teach primary education ia Victoria, but they afford a higher-class education to girls who are willing to pay extra fees, 21— H. 1.

Mr. A. Mackay,

April 1, 1879.

Mr. J. Jirowning.

April 1,1879.

H.—l.

Mr. J. Browning,

3318. Are any girls'high schools maintained in Victoria?—l cannot say. The difficulty here is that in almost every lady's private school there is a different system adopted, and therefore girls wishing to avail themselves of higher education have no common groundwork to start upon. There is no uniformity in the system of teaching. 3319. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know if there are any funds available in Nelson towards the promotion of higher education for girls?—l am not aware of any. 3320. Do you know whether the possibility of making provision for girls in connection with the Nelson College has ever been contemplated ?—I cannot speak from personal knowledge, but lam under the impression that some attempts have been made but have failed. 3321. Do you think that the erection of one of the primary schools into a district high school would in any degree meet the want ?—I think it would be very advisable that a girls' school, without primary education, should be established, fees, of course, being charged. The difficulty is that we are not able to obtain the higher-class education although we may be willing to pay for it. 3322. The Chairman.] Have any of the parents of girls in Nelson, so far as you know, taken advantage of either the Christchurch or Dunedin Girls' High School, instead of sending their children out of the colony?—I cannot speak on the point from personal knowledge. 3323. Could you give us a general idea of the number of girls that might attend a high school if one were established in Nelson ? —My time has not allowed me to make inquiries on that subject, but 1 am given to understand, from the Inspector of Schools, who would be a very good authority on the subject, that he is of opinion that, with a proper system of fees, such a school, if established, would be selfsupporting in a very short time. I cannot say as tothe number ; there are a great number of families around Nelson and in the country who would avail themselves of the school. 3324. Are there many private girls' schools in Nelson ?—There is only one for advanced teaching as far as I know-. 3325. Have you any idea what the fees are at that school?—I cannot say ; about three guineas a quarter, I think. I know that immediately that school aimed at higher-class training it was filled at once. 3326. What is the number of pupils ?■ —I think about seventy or eighty. The only other school we have here giving a higher education is the Convent School, and, of course, there are many who on religious grounds would object to send their children there. 3327. Are there many pupils at the Convent School? —They have a large school and offer superior advantages, having a staff' of well-educated ladies. But the want that is felt by the community here is a common ground from which girls could enter into competition with the boys for honours and scholarships. At present there is such a diversity, and so many different text-books are used, that the establishment of a girls' school under the sanction of the Government with a uniform system of training, and using the text-books required by the University and collegiate schools, would meet a want very much felt.

April 1, 1879.

Thursday, 3rd April, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Eev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Sale, Eev. AY. E. Mulgau, Professor Shand. Mr. Joseph Baker was sworn and examined. 3323. The Chairman.] AVhat is your position with regard to the Motueka Native School ?—I am teacher and general manager of the school. 3329. Does Mrs. Baker assist?—Tes ; she assists in the supervision of the school. 3330. How long have you held the position of teacher ? —Since May, 1872, when I first arrived at Motueka. 3331. Could you tell us how long the school has been iv existence ? —No. 3332. How many boarders are there at the present time ? —Five, three girls and two boys. 3333. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you state their ages ? —lt is very difficult to ascertain the age of Maoris ; but, as far as I can judge, the eldest boy is, I think, fifteen, and the next about thirteen ; and the ages of the girls will be nine, eight, and six respectively. 3334. Professor Sale.] Have you convenient arrangements for keeping the boys and girls apart?— AYe have distinct sleeping apartments; but they are together at meal-times aud iv the evening. 3335. You and Airs. Baker reside on the premises ?—Yes. 3336. Will you explain generally the kind of instruction the children receive at the school ?—ln the first place we have to teach them the English language, and we start at the beginning, teaching them reading, writing, arithmetic, geography, and singing, instruction in which is all given in English. 3337. Have any of the children been at the school for any length of time? —Only one, the eldest boy, who has attended, I think, for two years. 3338. Have any of the others received instruction at the school without being regular boarders ? —One girl did so for a few months, previously to becoming a boarder. 3339. And the other three children—have they recently entered the school ?—Two of them commenced in February last, aud the other one in March. 3340. Are all the children natives of the Nelson province?— Yes. 3341. What has been the average number of boarders since the school opened as a boardingschool ?—I think about six or seven. AYe have had ten, six, seven, and five, and occasionally we have had less than five, but only, perhaps, for a few weeks. 3342. In what year did the school open as a boarding-school ? —I think it was in 1873. We commenced with four, but had a few day scholars at the same time. 3343. The school opened as a day school in 1872 ? —Yes, in May, 1872.

Mr. Joseph Baker.

April 3,1879.

162

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163

3344. When it first opened as a day school what number of scholars had you ?—I think there were as many as twenty-nine on the roll at ono time, but generally we had from twelve to twenty. 3345. Professor Shand.] Was that the number on the roll, or the average attendance?— The average attendance at first was about twelve; it fell off afterwards to about eight, and remained at that for some months. 3346. Professor Sale.] But you had as many as twenty-nine at one time ? —Yes, on the roll; they were not all children, some were adults, but they did not remain long. 3347. How many were there at the end of 1872, or before you opened as a boarding-school ?—> The number was then reduced to one. 3318. Can you state tho reason why they all left except one ?—There were various reasons given. AV"e had then a morning and an evening school. For the convenience of the Natives living in different parts the morning school was held in the little Maori chapel, aud the afternoon school in the Church schoolroom at the village. It was complained that one school was too far away from one party, and the other school was too far away from the other party. One complaint was that it w*as too cold in the Church schoolroom where the night school was held ; and thou, afterwards, it was stated that the Natives wished the school to collapse, that they wanted the land to be returned to them—that it had been unjustly taken from them by, I understood them to say, Sir George Grey, who had given it to the Bishop of New Zealand to appropriate as he thought proper, and that they were not satisfied with the appropriation of the estate. 3349. ATas it the parents of the children who stated this to you ? —Yes ; aud that was the chief reason, I believe, why the children did not attend. I do not thiuk the objection originated entirely with the Maoris ; I think they were instigated by the European settlers there; in fact, they quoted the opinions of certain residents in Motueka. 3350. Are you aware, of your own knowledge, whether any of those residents have been anxious to see the school drop through ? —That is my impression, but 1 could not say so positively. I simply know that they were anxious to secure the trust for the benefit of the European children, and that they made application to the Central Board with that view, requesting that body to recommend to the Government to have the trust conveyed over to them. 3351. Then your belief is that the Natives were anxious to recover what they conceived to be their right to the land; and that the European settlers, on the contrary, were anxious to convert the institution into a European school ?—That is my belief. 3352. After the school opened as a boarding-school did any of the Natives send their children as boarders? —Four girls came. 3353. Can you state what object they had in sending their children ? —One, who had no interest in tho estate, was anxious that his daughter should receive a good education, and the others made the remark to me that it was because they wished to cat their share of the estate. 3354. Did you find that they were more satisfied next year?— Yes, much more so. Next year they were anxious that we should take more of the children, aud I reported the fact to the Bishop, who instructed me to take in six more, which I did. 3355. For how long had you as many as ten boarders ? —I think for the twelve months. 3356. Did the numbers fall off after that? —They fell off at the end of tho year. AYe had the four I have mentioned from March to December, and then the Bishop had a suitable building erected for the accommodation of the others. The building was completed in December, and at the opening of the school in January we took ten boarders, including the four. 3357. January, 1574 ? —Yes; we commenced theu with ten, and, I think, continued with that number all the year. But amongst them were a number of delicate children, and one of the girls died; she was taken ill at the school, and her parents took her away aud she died at home. There were, besides, two boys and a girl, belonging to another family. These went to Taranaki, but returned in a worse state of health. They joined the school again, and remained with us until they died ; they were consumptive children. 3358. Has the same feeling of dislike to the school, on the ground of the injustice that was done in taking the land, shown itself since then ? —Yes, the Natives have since referred to it frequently, and, on one occasion, withdrew three of their children from the school. Mr. Alexander Mackay remonstrated with them, and they said the Europeans had influenced them in what they had done—■ that is to say, had recommended them to remove their children from the Native school and place them at the Government European school, where they would be on an equal footing with the English children. 3359. Was any attempt made by the Maoris to place their children at the English school ? —Not that I am certain of; but 1 believe they did apply, for I heard a remark from the Chairman of the Education Committee there, that they could not admit Maoris into their school—that it had been tried, but that the parents of the English children objected, and said that if the Maoris were admitted into the school they would remove their children. 3360. Do you know whether there has been any special influence recently at work to make the Motueka Natives discontented in this matter ? —I cannot say there has been for the last twelve months or more, except that Te AVhiti has induced some of them to remove their children to Taranaki. 3361. How long has that boon going on ?—i can hardly say. The question has been agitated for the last twelve months. They decided to go in the beginning of December, 1878, and siucc theu wo have lost three children at least, who have gone specially to see Te AVhiti. 3362. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have these children gone as parts of families that have removed, or have they been sent over there to school ? —-They went with their parents. In the case of one girl at the school her parents went to Taranaki, and sent over for her, but she did not go until her mother came and took her away. 3363. Professor Sale.] Has there been any considerable emigration of the Natives during the last few years from the Motueka district to the North Island ? —Yes ; I thiuk more than half of them have left.

Mr.JosephßaJctr.

April 3, 1879.

H.—l

164

Mr.Josephßa&er.

3364. Do you know how many Natives there are now in tho Motueka {district ?—I cannot say, having seen so little of the Maoris lately. 3365. But you arc aware that the number has considerably lessened within the last few years?— Tes; but I know that some who have left have simply gone on a visit, as they frequently do. Some have gone to the AVaikato, and returned to Motueka. We have two children now who have just returned from the AVaikato, where they stayed for several years. 3366. But you believe that a considerable number have left the district permanently ? —AVell, they went away with that intention, but Ido not believe myself that they will remain away. I know that they sold off everything they had, including their farming implements, and let their laud ; but I do not think they will remain away*, because they have done the same before on several occasions. 3367. Has there been any other influence at work among them ?—There is amongst them a man whom I believe to be a Hauhau prophet, and he has upset the Maoris very much, so much so that the majority of them have not been on speaking terms with me for several months past. This man has led them astray. 3368. The Chairman.] Is he one of the Motueka Natives? —No; he came there last September from the AVairau —Havelock direction. He has prejudiced the minds of the Natives against our institution very much, and says wo arc simply living there for the sake of getting all the benefit out of the estate, without trying to do any good to the Natives. 3369. Professor Sale] And he has had great influence with the Natives ? —He has had considerable influence with them. He does not actually profess to interfere with the school itself, but he has prejudiced the minds of the Natives against us so much that during the whole month of January we were without any scholars —we did not commence, I think, until the 3rd or 4th February. 3370. And do you attribute the absence of any scholars at that time to the influence of this man ? —Partly. 3371. The Chairman.] Were you ever without scholars, except on the occasion to which you have just alluded ?—Never without one scholar. 3372. Professor Sale.] Then this discontent of the Natives about the land, fostered in the different ways you have spoken of, has been the main cause of the difficulties which you have experienced in keeping up tho school ?—Tes; that is my belief—that is, for tho first three or four years. 3373. Do you think the Natives are more contented at the present time thau they were previously? —I do not think they are. They have been informed by Europeans whom they have consulted that the land will never revert to them again, and that if they do not make what use they can of the trust it will simply fall into the hands of the Government, or into the hands of the Europeans. That is why they are desirous now to keep up the school, even if the scholars are only a few, their object being to keep up their claim upon the land. 3374. Then they are now sullenly taking this as all they can get out of the land ?—Tes, I think that is their case; Ido not think they avail themselves of the school I'rom any great desire to have their children educated. 3375. I think you were born in Now Zealand, and have been acquainted with the Natives all your life ? —Tes. I have been chiefly among tho Maoris, and have seldom been in districts where there were none. 3376. And from what you know of the Natives do you think that if it were not for this feeling of discontent about the land they would be anxious to obtain education for their children ? —I thiuk Natives are generally desirous to have their children educated. At AVakapuaka, where there is no trouble about laud, I believe the school is a groat success. Certainly the teacher there has not had the difficulties to contend with that wo have had at Motueka. 3377. Bey. W. J. Habens.] About how many Maori children of school ago in your neighbourhood do y-ou know of who are not attending school ? —I think there are four or five there now. But there are several visiting their friends in the North Island who are expected to return. AVhat is more, I know that the Maoris of Motueka—whether for the purpose of having them educated, or only of having them at the school, I do not know —have sent to Taranaki for children and have tried to induce children to come from the Pelorus. They say that, if they were allowed to do so, they would bring the children from these and other districts to the school. AVhat their motive is I cannot say, but they wish to maintain the school, for they send their children there in spite of the unpleasantness which has lately existed between them and myself. I cannot say that lam a party to this unpleasantness, for I am not; it has been caused through the influence amongst them of this Hauhau prophet, who has induced tho Natives to leave the Church and discontinue their attendance at the services, and to establish some creed of their own. 3378. Professor Sale.] Do you find the children apt at learning?— Some of them are, but the Motueka children are not so as a general rule. There is some peculiarity about the Motueka children. They are very dull a3 a rule. 3379. AVhat is your best pupil doing in arithmetic? —He is in compound long-division, compound multiplication, and so on. 3380. AVhat are the others doing in arithmetic ?—Simple multiplication, addition, and division. 3381. Can any of them read well?— Fairly*. One girl reads very well. The eldest boy is not so quick at his reading or English as one of the little girls. 3382. And the other three —what are they doing ?—They are simply beginning; they can read words of one syllable, and do arithmetic. 3383. Do you find that they are quick at learning to w*rite ?—A Tery ; they seem to excel in writing, as a rule. 3381. How do they succeed in geography?— Not so well; they do not seem to take any interest in it, or to understand what it is intended for, and, in the case of the pupils we had previously, it was some months before w-e could get them to take an interest in it. 3385. Be v. W. J. Habeas.] Do y*ou think that in that respect they differ much from other children ? —Probably not; I have not had any experience in teaching European children.

April 3, 1879,

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3386. Professor Sale.] Tour own children, I think, learn along with tho Maori children ?—Tes, three of them. 3387. I suppose for their age they are a good deal more advanced than the Maori children ? —One is, but not the others. 3388. I think you said the scholars also learn singing?—Tes ; I used to teach them singing, and I have just commenced with the present pupils. 3389. Do you find that they take much pleasure in that branch ? —They take more pleasure in singing than in anything else. It is their delight to have a singing lesson, and they succeed very well in it. 3390. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Have you regular school hours ?—Tes. When I first went to the institution, seven years ago, the Bishop informed me that there was great dissatisfaction amongst the Maoris, who did not like attending the school; that I wras to give them four hours a day, but had better commence with only two hours, and continue that number of hours for some time. However, I thought.two hours too little, and commenced with three, and the Maoris actually complained that that was too long, but I kept it on for some time until, to accommodate theiri, I reduced it to two hours and a half, when they went to Mr. Mackay, the Commissioner, and complained that I was not doing them justice, and that their children had not sufficient education. I told Mr. Mackay how it was, and he recommended me to increase the hours again, which I did, and they simply left the school. 3391. Professor Sale.] To what date are you referring now ? —That was in 1875, I think. 3392. Was there a good deal of discontent generally with the school at that time ?—Tes. 3393. What are the school hours at present? —Three hours a day —two in the morning and one in the afternoon. There is an evening school besides. At the conclusion of the afternoon school the girls have au hour's sewing lesson. In the evening they are all supposed, as a rule, to be learning their lessons. Mrs. Baker and others take a class in the evening and teach them reading and writing, and entertain them with illustrated papers, pictures, and things of that sort. They are entertained in the evening in that way for about an hour or more. 3391. Have you any adult pupils in the evening?—l have had one, but he has been very busy lately and unable to attend ; he promises, however, to come again. He used to come two evenings in the week to learn English, and worked for about an hour and a half with me. 3395. Do the girls do any other industrial work besides sewing?—No, not the present pupils. There used to be a great deal of fancy work done. 3396. Do they wash their own clothes ? —Tes ; they wash and iron them —in fact, make them. 3397. Do the boys do any industrial work ?—They are not expected to do any. The Maoris sent them on condition that they were not to do any work, and complain if they are even required to carry a bucket of water or a bit of firewood. 3398. Have you any day scholars ? —Not now. Several have promised, but their excuse has been that they have been very busy picking hops. It is a hop-growing district, and the children earn from 4s. to ss. a day, which, of course, is a great inducement for them to keep away from school. 3399. The Chairman.] What salary do you and Mrs. Baker receive ? —£l9o. 3400. I understand the school is conducted in a private buildiug?—The school is on private ground. 3401. Is any rent paid for it?— The Bishop pays rent for a cottage. 3102. What is the amount ? —I cannot say ;it is over £20. 3103. At whose cost is the present addition to the building being made?—Tho landlady's—Mrs. Eearon. 3401. How many boarders can you accommodate at present ? —I suppose we could take ten or twelve. 3405. And how many will you bo able to receive when the addition is made ? —I do not think there will be any material difference in that respect. The present building is being erected by the landlady more particularly as a residence for ourselves, and, of course, partly to afford accommodation to the boarders. Part of the house has been removed, and the present building substituted, only it will be larger. 3406. Had you any experience in teaching Maoris before going to Motueka ? —Tes. I was at a school at Tauranga. It was not a Government school, but was conducted by my father in conjunction with another clergyman, who had a mission school. I used to assist in the school. 3107. Does Mr. Greenwood, the bailiff, reside on the estate at Motueka?—JSTo ; he resides on his own property. 3408. What diet do the children get at the boarding-school?— They have the ordinary diet—meat, potatoes, and bread. 3409. Do they attend church ? —Tes; they attend the Native church on Sunday mornings, and have been accustomed to attend the English church in tho evenings in summer, but not, as a rule, in winter. 3410. Tou stated that there was a jealousy against Maori children attending the European school: how far is your school from the Government school ? —I suppose about a quarter of a mile. 3411. Then, if the Maori children wished to attend the Government school, they could conveniently do so, if there was not this feeliug against them? —What I meant to say was, that our school is about a quarter of a mile from the Government school; but it is not in the centre of the Maori population. 3412. So far as day scholars are concerned, then, the Government school and your school would be equally convenient? — Yea. 3413. Do tho Motueka Natives hold under Crown grant, or by tribal custom ? Has their land been through the jNative Land Court? —I think not. 3414. Tou spoke of their letting their property and going away : do they hold under Crown grant ? —No ; they do not. 3415. Then they hold by Native custom? —I do not know what rule they have. The land is all

Mr.Josephßaher,

April 3,1879.

166

held in trust by the Commissioner, so that the Maoris have no legal title to the land. They are only allowed to let it for twelve months at a time, unless there is some special arrangement made with Mr. Mackay. 3416. Are you acquainted with the different properties into which the trust estate is divided?—■ I know certain portions, but I could not give you much information about them. 3417. Are you acquainted with any part that is overgrown with gorse ? —I know a part that waa overgrown with gorse, which, however, has been cut down, and the land ploughed. 3415. Is there any particular reason why that ground became overgrown with gorse ? —I think the reason was, simply, that the land was so poor that it was not worth cultivating, and tho gorse was allowed to have its own way. 3419. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What is tho greatest length of time that any one pupil has spent at the school?—I think six years ; but, during that time, the pupil —a girl—was occasionally away for a few months at a time, and always returned to the school as her own home. 3420. Are you able to trace the subsequent career of any of tho pupils who have been educated in the school ? —Tes. One of the female pupils, who was at the school for about twelve months, and left recently at the age of sixteen or seventeen, was married shortly afterwards to a half-caste from Wellington, and they are now living at Motueka in European style, and their house is as nice as any in the village. The most promising of our elder pupils, who had been with us for some time, died, and another went to Wellington, [and I have not heard of her for some time. Three of the boys died of consumption. 3421. Ho you think that any of the pupils have stayed in the school long enough to derive substantial advantage, so that they may be said to be educated young men and young women when they leave the school? —No, not entirely. I do not thiuk they have remained long enough. Some have come young and gone away after a little time; others have died —the most promising ; and the girl I have alluded to might have received a much better education if she had remained longer; but it was thought she was too old to stay at school. She still keeps up her English as much as she can, and, I think has derived great benefit from the school. 3422. Are you referring to the girl who is now married ? —Tes. 3423. Tiie Chairman.] Have you met any Maori men who were educated at the school previous to your going there ?—There are several at Motueka who have told me that they were educated at the school. 3424. Professor Sale.] Will you explain how it was that you came to occupy the building which, you now use as a school ?—Previous to my arrival, as my predecessor was away for some time, the Bishop let the College as a residence to Mr. John Saxon, who being still in occupation when I arrived, the Bishop took the cottage for three months. When Mr. Saxon left, the Maoris objected to their children going up so far as boarders. Meanwhile, the Bishop had another tenant in the house; so he said it did not matter —that the rent he was receiving from the College was equivalent to what he was payiug for the cottage in the village; and he thought we were much more central there, for there were Maoris then living in ditferent districts, some about a mile on the south side of us, and others about a mile in the opposite direction. The Maoris themselves also expressed a wish that the school should remain there. However, after this, the Bishop wished us to remove up to the College. That was after we took in boarders. The Maoris said if we went there they would take the boarders away, because the distance was too great. Since then the additions I have mentioned have been made. The schoolhouse was then built on the land by the Bishop, on condition that it might be removed. It has nothing to do with the landlady, and is not her property. 3425. Tour present schoolhouse is placed on the ground with the express condition that it is removable? —With the express condition that it may be removed at any time by the trustees of the estate. I believe that the Motueka College—the \Vhakarewa College as it is termed —is at present uninhabitable, and Mr. Greenwood told me that it would cost as much to keep that building in repair annually as it would to pay the rent of the present cottage. It is a lath-and-plaster building, and continually getting out of repair, the roof being rotten, audi do not think a tenant could be obtained for it on any terms.

Mr.Josephßaker.

April 3, 1879.

-Fim-.-v, 4th Aprtl, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.1.., in the chair. Eev. AT. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Sale, Eev. W. E. Mnlgan, Professor Shand. Mr. Matthew Campbell was sworn and examined. 342 G. The Chairman.] Tou have been a settler in this province for a long time, I believe? —Tes, ever since 1842. 3127. Tou are connected with a society established here called the Nelson School Society ?—Tes. I produce for the information of tho Commission the original grant of a piece of land in the City of Nelson, made to myself and certain co-trustees, and dated the 10th February, 1847, under the hand of Sir George Grey. [Grant produced.] When we first applied, our operations were confined to day and Sunday schools, but we afterwards merged into the School Soeiety —in 1843,1 think. Application was made to Governor Pitzroy at tho latter end of 1812, but it was not granted for some time, although in the meantime the schools were carried on. 3428. Did Governor Pitzroy sanction the granting of this land?—He sanctioned the grant at first, intending to have the deed made whenever he returned to Nelson, and Sir George Grey confirmed his action. 3429. Has the Society been carrying on its operations ever since that time?—Tes; as soon as a settlement was formed in Nelson by the New Zealand Company, a school was opened, and when, at the

Mr. M. Campbell

April 4, 1879,

167

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end of 1843, about eighteen men with their families went to "Wakefield to make their homes, we started . a school there also, and, as settlements wero formed in different parts of the province, schools were established. 3430. Could you tell us, roughly, the greatest number of schools that have been in existence under the Society? —Schools existed in the following places : —Riwaka, Motueka, Wakefield, Eiver Terrace, Spring Grove, Richmond, Stoke, Nelson (2), Hope, Waimea Village, and Suburban North, numbering in all twelve. 3431. How were these schools maintained? —At the commencement of the settlement I built, and the Society was indebted to me for a considerable time, but 1 was paid oil' when the Council met. Then we had subscriptions from parents, who paid so much per week for their children, and when Sir George Grey came, as Governor, he gave £35 a year for six years towards the schools, and a large supply of books and maps; and Mr. Tucket set apart a quantity of land, from which we had rents. 3432. Was it Government land that Mr. Tucket set apart ?—No ; his own land. "We had nothing from the Government but £35 a year, for six years, which was granted by Sir George Grey. The first year the Nelson Provincial Council met they gave £1S0; the second year they granted £400, and granted a sum to the lioman Catholics. The schools were principally maintained by subscriptions and children's fees. I may say that we had then some of the best teachers that have ever been in Nelson. Mr. Smith, the "Westland Inspector, was one of our teachers in the early days, and Mr. Beay was also one of our teachers. 3433. Was any land granted to you to assist in maintaining the schools ? —No. I had grants of three or four pieces of land, and when the Central Board first came into operation, and we handed everything over to the Government, I transferred these grants. We wanted to help forward the school movement as much as possible, and made everything over; aud what belonged to me I handed over to the trustees, so that they could transfer it to the Board, and all might be in the one arrangement. 3434. Would you explain what you mean when you say, " what belonged to me " ?—There was an acre at Hope for a schoolroom ; an acre at Biver Terrace for a schoolroom ; and a piece of suburban land. I think those are the three principal grants I handed over; there were a number of others, but the grants were never completed. 3435. Professor Sale.] Do you mean that you handed them over as trustee, or as a private individual ? —As a private individual. I made them over to trustees, so that all could be given to the Central Board. They did belong to me, but I sold them to the trustees. They were in the hands of the trustees, but were leased to the Central Board for ninety-nine years. 343 G. The Chairman.] Is there no land retained for the purpose of carrying on the Sunday school with which you are connected? —No. We made a sort of provision that we should have the use of the building on Sundays, because we always took a very great deal of interest in the Sunday schools, and where there was not a day school, perhaps, we had a Sunday school for a time, until there were sufficient children for a day school. There is one property in the Town of Nelson which is now used exclusively for a Sunday school. 3437. How was it you were able to retain a portion of the land when you handed over the rest to the Central Board?—Tho Central Board had it for about fourteen years. They introduced into the school building such a large quantity of furniture, not adapted for a Sunday school, that, for some time at first, I had myself to remove all the desks on the Saturday, and I had some little difference with the Board, because 1 re-arranged some portions of the furniture which they had fastened to the floor. Still, everything went on very well, as I had been a member of the Board for thirteen years. At the end of that time they considered that the school was getting out of order, and not at all fit for their requirements, as they wanted larger rooms, and a playground, and it was agreed to forego a certain amount of rent. I may say that the trustees had agreed to let all their school property to the Board for ninety-nine years, reserving the right to use it on Sunday. 3438. Is the piece of ground you now hold the piece which is the subject of this grant you have produced ? —Tes. As the building and the ground were not suited to the requirements of a day school, a more convenient piece of land —I think some Native reserve —was obtained by a process of exchange, and placed in the hands of the Government. The Board, therefore, decided to let us have our piece of land back again, provided we would forego half the rent. Wc let all the property to the Board at first, for a nominal rent of £25 a year, and we agreed to take the piece in question back again, and use it for a Sunday school, and for any other purposes for which it might be required, paying rent at the rate of £12 10s. a year; so we only have £12 10s. a year for all the country property, and retain the use of this piece for Sunday-school and other purposes. 3439. Do you retain any properties in the country ?—No. 3140. Then the whole income arising from your transactions with the Government, as regards these lands, is £12 10s. ?— Yes. 3141. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I understand that part of Block H, in the City of Nelson, was Crowngranted to you for the purposes of the Nelson School Society ? —Tes. 3442. Did you also receive Crown grants for two pieces of land at Waimea South ?—I do not remember at present; I have been looking, but do not see any other grant than this one. 3443. Tou have considered that the Nelson School Society is, by permission of the Crown, the owners of two blocks of land at Waimea South ?—Tes ; they were in the hands of the School Society, and we let them to the Central Board. 3444. I am referring to part of Section 41, 5 acres, and part of Section 147, 10 acres, both at Waimea South? —Tes; they were both granted to the School -Society. 3445. Does the Nelson School Society own, by grant from the Crown, a part of Section G4 at Motueka, consisting of 2J acres ?—Tes. 344 G. Does it also hold at Motueka. by grant from the Crown, a part of Section 154, 2 acres?— I was never acquainted with that; it never came to my knowledge. 3447. 1 ask the question because I find that, iv a return made to the House of Eepresentatives, setting forth the reserves made for education in Nelson, this particular piece of land, part of Section

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154, comprising 2 acres, is entered as having been granted under the authority of the Kew Zealand Company to the Nelson School Society. I understand you to say you do not know anything about that section? —Xo, I have no recollection of it. The school building was never even put upon the two and a half acres, but on some other piece. Of course, land which the School Society leased to the Board was always considered to belong to the local committees for the use of the teachers. We always consider that the teacher has the use of any land adjoining the school. 3448. What is the total annual income of the School Society at the present time? —We have nothing besides the £12 10s. I have mentioned. The lands handed over to us by Mr. Tucket and others, of course, ceased to return auy income when they were handed over to the Central Board. 3449. And how is the £12 10s. expended ?—ln purchasing books for the Sunday school, cleaning the schoolroom, and other similar items, including repairs. There are subscriptions and other things which enable us to meet our expenditure. 3450. Do you consider that the lauds were originally granted to you for the double purpose of carrying on day schools, and of carrying on Sunday schools ? —Tes. 3451. And do you consider that you are carrying out both of those purposes ? —-Tes. With regard to the building I have been speaking of, only Bible classes and such like are held there at present. It has always been used for anything calculated to benefit the young and promote education, and for Good Templar meetings. 3452. Then do I understand that you consider you are promoting day-school instruction by granting the use of your building to the Board of Education at a nominal rent, and that you are promoting Sunday-school instruction directly by your own operations ? —Tes. 3453. What office do you hold in connection with the Nelson School Society ? —Treasurer. 3454. Has the Society an annual meeting?—Tes. 3455. Are accounts presented annually ? —Tes. 3456. Have you any recent annual report, or report of the proceedings of any recent annual meeting, which you could hand in for the information of the Commission ?—Tes ; the reports are always published in the newspapers. 3457. The Chairman.] What denominations attend the Sunday school ? —Mr. Tucket and myself were very careful at first to have it inserted in the deed that the school should be open to all denominations, and we have teachers belonging to the different Churches. 3458. Do children of all religious denominations attend ? —Tes; and they have always done so. We have had Catholics, but, of course, Mr. Garin keeps them away as much as possible. 3459. To what denomination does the bulk of the children belong?—l do not think there is a preponderance of any particular denomination ; the children chiefly belong to the Church of England, the Presbyterian Church, and the Wesleyan Church, Some come to our school iv the morning, and attend the Presbyterian school in the afternoon. 3460. Be v. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou said, I think, that when you leased all this property to the Central Board you reserved your right to hold Sunday schools in the different buildings'?—Tes; but the town school was so crowded that the Central Board found it more convenient to get another building. 3461. Still, you hold Sunday schools in the other schools?—Tes, we hold Sunday schools in the various places, and I visit them occasionally when it is convenient to have an annual meeting. Mr. James T. Catley was sworn aud examined. 3462. The Chairman.] Tou are Eeceiver of Land Eevenuc in Nelson ?—Tes. 3463. How long have you been in the service of the Government ? —Por twenty-three years. 3464. Are you acquainted with part Section 154, at Motueka, consisting of 2 acres?— Yes. 3465. To whom was that granted ? —lt has not been granted. 3466. Is it an error to put it down in the return as having been granted?—Tes. 3467. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know whether it was over intended to grant it?—l cannot say. It appears in our books simply as a school reserve; and, in compiling the list of reserves, it has been treated as belonging to the Nelson School Society. But it was one of the very old reserves made in the time of the New Zealand Company. 3465. And, so far as you know, it has never been applied to any use ? —I cannot say, but I think not. 3469. But the Crown Lands Office has regarded it as a reserve for education ?—Tes. 3470. Professor Sale.] And particularly for the Nelson School Society ? —Tes; it has always been considered as belonging to the Nelson School Society. 3471. The Chairman.] Can you account for its not having been granted or set apart ? —I think the reason w*ould simply be that it has not been required. I suppose they did not intend to build a school upon it. It was simply set apart on the plan and never used. 3472. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Could you indicate the locality of the other site which the Nelson School Society holds ? —lt is a short distance away from Section 154. [Map produced.] 3473. The Chairman.] Are these allotments iv a township?—No; it was considered by the New Zealand Company a suburban settlement.

Mr.M. Campiell.

April 4, 1879.

Mr. J. T. Cutlet/,

April 4, 1879.

Christciiurcii, Saturday, 12ti_ April, 1879. Present : Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand. Mr. William Montgomery, M.H.E., was sworn and examined. 3474. The Chairman.] I. understand you are Chairman of the Board of Governors of Canterbury College ?—Tes.

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3475. How long have you hold that post ?—Since 1875. 3476. Have you been connected with the governing body from the foundation of the College ?— Yes. 3477. In what year was the institution founded ? —ln 1873. 3478. Por imparting what class of education was the College established ?—The preamble of " The Canterbury College Ordinance, 1873," states, " "Whereas it is deemed expedient to make provision for enabling all classes and denominations of her Majesty's subjects, resident in the Province of Canterbury and elsewhere in the Colony of New Zealand, to pursue a regular and liberal course of education, and with that intent to establish and incorporate a college within the said province." 3479. I presume it was established for imparting University education ? —Yes. 3480. And not grammar-school education ?—No. 3481. Have the aims of the College been hitherto fully attained in your opinion?— Yes, I think so. 3482. How are the members of the governing body appointed?— They were appointed and named in the Ordinance of 1873, which also contained a provision that until there should be thirty graduates vacancies should be filled up as they occurred by the remaining members of the Board. The Ordinance further provided that, when there should be thirty graduates of the University who were on the books of the College, all vacancies should be filled by a majority of such graduates. 3483. Professor Droivn.] "VVould ad eundem graduates be included ? —No ; the clause on the subject is as follows : " Whenever there shall be not fewer than thirty members of the College who are graduates of the University of New Zealand continuing on the books of the College, all vacancies thereafter occurring in the number of the governors shall be from time to time filled up by the majority of such graduates, present at a meeting duly convened for that purpose by the Board of Governors." 3454. That does not exclude ad eundem graduates ?—lt would appear so, for the clause refers to graduates " continuing on the books of the College." 3485. The Chairman.] Of how many members is the governing body composed?— Twenty-three. 3486. How many of that number have been elected by the governing body itself?— Fifteen. I may say that some of the members who were appointed originally by the Provincial Council left the province, but were afterwards, on their return, re-elected to fill up vacancies that had occurred. 3487. For what period are the members appointed ? —There is no period mentioned —-for life, or until they infringe the provisions of the Gth section of the Ordinance. 3485. What is the quorum ?—Eight. 3459. Has the business been often retarded for want of a quorum ? —Sometimes we have been unable to get a quorum. 3490. Has the quorum been found inconveniently large ? —I think it is inconveniently large. 3491. Professor Cook.] Having regard to the number of members forming the governing body —■ namely, twenty-three —do you think eight is too large a quorum ? —I think it is too large; there is a difficulty in always getting a quorum, and I would rather the number were reduced to six or seven. 3492. Professor Sale.] Do you think, then, that the number of the members of the governing body itself is too large?—l do not think so, because we do our work very much by Committees. AYe have five standing Committees : a College Committee, an Estates Committee, a Library Committee, a Museum Committee, a School of Agriculture Committee ; besides the Medical Council, consisting of five gentlemen belonging to our Board, who are associated with gentlemen of the medical faculty ; so that in point of fact there are six Committees. 3493. The Chairman.] AVhat institutions besides the College proper are in charge of the governing body? —There are the Museum, the Public Library, the School of Agriculture, the Girls' High School, and the Boys' High School. 3494. Is the Boys' High School in existence ? —The school is being built; the contract is let and the work is proceeding. 3495. But is there at present a boys' high school in existence under the charge of the Board of Governors? —No, but it is about to be established. 3496. Perhaps I interrupted you in your answer to Professor's Sale's question, as to whether you considered the governing body too large ? —I was endeavouring to explain that, owing to the number of institutions under the control of the College governors, it was found convenient, and, in fact, necessary, to arrange the work by means of committees, each committee consisting of gentlemen with special knowledge of the subject with which it deals. It would be difficult, if we had a smaller number to select from, to get sufficient members for the different committees. 3497. Professor Drown.] Do you think that it is advantageous to the College proper that a large number of institutions, which are not altogether of the same nature as the College, should be under the management of tho governing body, necessitating its being a large body?—l think that perhaps the College might get along without the Boys' High School and the Girls' High School, or even the Public Library; but those institutions would require somebody to control them, and I know the professors of this College advocated the establishment of the Boys' High School as a feeder to the College. lam decidedly of opinion that it is advantageous to the cause of education that these schools should be under the one Board of Governors. 3498. And also the Public Library ? —And the Public Library too. 3499. Does it feed the College or help it in any way? —I think it helps the College to this extent: that it contains many books which are valuable to the students of the College. 3500. But would there be fewer books valuable to the students if the Library were under the control of another Board? —I do not know what might be the case under another Board; Ido not know what another Board might do. 3501. Have the students of the College any privileges in connection with the Public Library ?—The same privilege that other individuals have; they can go into the reference library, read tho books, and make notes. 3502. And they would not have this privilege if the library were under another Board ?—I do not know what they would have under another Board. 22—il. 1.

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3503. Tou say they have the same privilege as the public? —Tes. 3504. The Chairman.] What are the resources of the Board of Governors for College purposes solely? In College purposes I include the salaries of the professors and others giving University education. —There are rents derived from reserves set apart by the Provincial Council, and confirmed by the General Assembly; also an endowment for a school of technical science, and for other educational purposes contemplated by " Tiie Canterbury Museum and Library Ordinance, 1870." 3505. Would the proceeds of that endowment be devoted to University education within these walls ?—Tes, part of the proceeds. The endowment consists of 105,207 acres. 3506. Professor Shand.] What salaries, if any, are paid out of this fund? —We first provide for the Museum, and anything not required for that institution we use in assisting the funds of the College and the Library. 3507. The Chairman.] What revenue is derived from the endowment you have just referred to? —The sum of £930 lis. Gd. will be received from pastoral rents this year. 3508. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does that represent the annual rent, or is it simply the amount that was received during a certain period? —It is the rent to be paid on the lst May. We have sold a portion of tho reserve, and the proceeds, which we have invested, yield a considerable revenue; in fact, the interest we receive amounts to more than the rent of the reserve. 3509. The Chairman.] How much of the land has been sold?— The original area was 105,207 acres, and there remain unsold 93,058 acres, so that the quantity sold would be 11,549 acres, which at £2 an acre brought in £23,098. 351.0. Professor Sale.] How is that money invested ? —lt has been invested in mortgages of freehold lands, with the exception of a sum which was invested in the purchase of a piece of land, half an acre, at the corner of Montreal and Armagh Streets, and an amount which has been set apart for buildings. I will give you tho exact figures from the amounts made up to the lst January last. There was an amount of £1,800 paid for land at the corner of Montreal and Armagh Streets, on which it is proposed to erect the Girls' High School buildings. The sum of £1,936 was taken from this trust estate towards the College buildings, in accordance with the terms of "The Canterbury Educational Reserves Sale and Leasing Act, 1876." The sum lent out was £13,900, the rate of interest being 8 per cent. There was a balance in hand of £5,402, which, with the exception of £802, has since been lent out at 10 per cent. 3511. The Chairman.] What is the total income received on account of this trust? —Por this year, commencing ou the lst January, receipts should be £936 lis. 6d. from pastoral rents, and £1,393 interest on loans. 3512. Professor Shand.] How is this income apportioned between the different objects of the trust —the Museum, the Library, and the College proper?— There has been very little revenue to apportion until this year, as we had previously sold but a small portion of the land, and even required grants from the Provincial Council and the General Assembly to maintain tho Museum. It is only this year that we shall be able to take from the trust the proportion which we think it should bear towards the cost of providing the higher education supplied by the College. Previously there was not sufficient revenue to support even the Museum. 3513. Can you tell us what sums are likely to be taken for the different institutions out of the £2,329? —It has not been decided yet; but estimates have been prepared, to be submitted to the Board, which probably will be adopted. I have put down a sum of £1,666 6s. Bd. to cover the salaries and incidental expenses, under the head of " Museum." The salaries are as follows : Director, £600 ; taxidermist (salary for four months), £73 os. Bd. ; first assistant, £137 10s. ; second assistant, £114 10s. ; messenger, £52 ; share of Registrar's salary, £50: making a total of £1027 6s. Bd. The miscellaneous expenses comprise £450 for freight, timber, spirits of wine, cement, chemicals, ironwork, exchanges, fuel, &C, and £109 for insurance on £31,250. There is also a sum of £S0 put down for arranging the botanical collection, Mr. Kirk being employed to come down to classify the specimens, and £150 for models for the department of technical science. We are establishing this department in connection with the Museum, and have sent Home last year £100 for the purchase of models, &c., which are being procured by Sir Julius Vogel. Then there is an allocation from this endowment of £400 to the Public Library. 3514. Is that intended to cover the salaries of librarians and to purchase books? —Tes; in part. Tho salaries and other expenses of the library amount to much more than £400. 3516. How is the balance provided ? —Prom subscriptions to the circulating department of 10s. per annum for each person, and the share of the £5,000 voted by the Assembly for public libraries. 3517. What share of this grant do you receive ? —About £323 this year. 3518. What amount is received from subscriptions ?—Between £500 and £550. 3519. How much is spent annually upon books ?—I may say that the money we have got is not nearly enough to keen up the library as we should wish ; but we have hitherto had grants, and have not exhausted them yet. 3520. Grants from what source? —Prom the Land Pund of Canterbury; the General Assembly voted a sum of money and charged the province. The balance we now have in hand has all been anticipated by orders sent Home for books. My estimate for this year is as follows: Cash in hand for circulating department, £597 10s. 4d ; for the reference library, £610 6s. lid; subscriptions, £550; share of Government grant, £323 ; allocation from the School of Technical Science and Library Pund, £400: total, £2480 17s. 3d. The expenditure for salaries, for maintenance, and for bringing out books will be exactly equal to the revenue, for we intend to get out books to the full extent of the money available. At tho end of the year, therefore, we shall not have any money in hand. The particulars of the salaries I can give from memory. The sub-librarian receives £150 a year, and also £25 as an allowance for assistance in cleaning the library ; the assistant librarian gets £100 a year ; the share of the Registrar's salary, charged against the library, is £75 ; and tho incidental expenses, including gas, which is a large item, newspapers and periodicals, binding, repairs, insurance, &c, amount to £550.

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3521. The newspapers and periodicals arc for the free public reading-room?—Tes; the rest of the income is devoted to the purchase of books. 3522. What is its amount, approximately ?—About £1,580 for the current year, on account of the money in hand at tbe beginning of the year. 3523. Professor Cook.] Then, in addition to the balance with which you start this year, there would be, from the proceeds of the year, about £609 to be spent in books ?—No ; not so much as that. 3524. In a general way, what would you anticipate would be the amount of money arising from the year's income that would be available for the purchase of books ?—The total income, as I have given it, amounts to £2,480 17s. 3d.; the ordinary expenditure will come to about £900. 3525. Then you have about £500 out of the year's income to spend on books ? —Not so much, because from the sum of £2,480 has to be deducted the balance in hand brought forward from last year. The actual income, exclusive of the balance, would be : £550 from subscriptions ; £323, share of the Government grant; and £400, allocation from School of Technical Science, Library, and Museum Pund: making altogether £1,273. Against that are tho salaries and incidental expenses, which, as I have shown, amount to about £900; so that there would be a balance of about £373 available for books. 3526. What other expenditure will be defrayed out of the £2,329, which is the annual income of the School of Technical Science Fund, besides the £1,666 for the Museum, and the £400 for the Library ? —£lso for models, &c, for the technical science department; the balance would go to assist the revenue of the College. At the commencement of the year there was a balance in hand of £782 10s. 3d. It is proposed to devote £250 from this fund as its contribution towards providing furniture for the new wing of the College, particularly in connection with the natural science department. 3527. That will be for purely collegiate purposes ? —Yes, in connection with technical science. The grant was made for the advancement of education, for the purposes of the Museum, the Public Library, and the School of Technical Science. 3528. Professor Drown.] Is any of the revenue in question devoted to the payment of salaries in the College ?—There is no special amount devoted to salaries in ihe College ; but, of course, we consider that the Professor of Chemistry is a part of the School of Technical Science. 3529. Is he paid out of this fund ? —We never had any surplus from which payment could be made until we sold the land in the latter part of 1878, and began to receive interest for the money invested. We did not even have enough money to support the Museum, and had to get Government grants for the purpose. This year the fund is in a position to contribute to the other department of the College mentioned in the Ordinance constituting the trust, aud to the extent I have mentioned. 3530. Professor Shand.] Tou have now, I presume, stated all the items of expenditure which are defrayed out of this trust? —Tes, all from the annual revenue for this year. The sums I have mentioned would exceed the revenue this year, if it were not for the balance in hand at the beginning of the year. Prom that balance I propose to take £387 to assist the revenue of the College. 3531. Professor Cook.] In a general way, it seems that the proceeds from the property of this trust amount to about £2,329 per annum, and that the expenditure on the Museum and the Library is £2,216, leaving a balance of only £100 which could be devoted to other purposes ? —Tes ; that is tho balance available from the annual revenue this year, about £113. 3532. The Chairman.] The general question was, what are the resources of the Board of Governors for college purposes ? and you went on to detail the particulars of this Technical Science Trust. Would you proceed to the next source of revenue ?—101,640 acres of pastoral land were set apart for superior education, subject to public sale at £2 an acre, the money not to be used for maintenance, but invested as prescribed. The pastoral rents due on the lst May next amount to £1,006. Then we have got classical-school reserves. 3533. Professor Cook.] Has any of the pastoral land alluded to been sold ?—1,037 acres have been sold at £2 an acre, producing £2,074. 3534. Has that money been expended, or laid out at interest?—We paid £1,906 for the piece of land in this block, at the corner of Worcester and Montreal Streets. We also devoted £110 towards the College buildings, in accordance with the Act of 1876. I may say that we were empowered by that Act to take out of the proceeds of sale of the reserves mentioned in it £10,000 for college buildings, which we took^ro rata, according to the land that was sold at the time the College made the grants. The College made these grants, which the Governor approved of, and the various reserves were debited pro rata on the days upon which the grants were made. The sum of £110 for the collegiate buildings, and £1,906 for the land, would amount to £2,016, and leave a balance in hand of £58. 3535. The Chairman.] What is the next source of revenue for the College, purely as a college?— There are classical-school reserves, consisting of 8,953 acres of agricultural land, and 11 acres of town sections, the town lands being situated in Timaru, Arowhenua, Geraldine, and Ashburton. The agricultural land, being let on lease, will produce, this year, £1,399 13s. 6d., and the town sections £539 10s. None of this latter land can be sold. 3536. Is there any other source of income for the College? —The School of Agriculture is also a part of this College ; and as the Biological Lecturer, the Professor of Chemistry, and, to a certain extent, also, the Professor of Mathematics, all contribute to the advancement of the School of Agriculture, aud as, besides, the Registrar has a good deal of work to do in connection with the institution, we consider it proper to take £500 from the funds of the School of Agriculture, as its contribution towards the expenses of the College proper. 3537. Would you inform the Commission what money is expended on college purposes ?—The expenditure is as follows : On salaries, £3,160: comprising, £600 for Professors of Classics and English Literature; £600 for Professor of Mathematics ; £600 for Professor of Chemistry ; £150 for Professor of Geology, who is also Director of the Museum, for which he receives £600 per annum ; £250 for Lecturer on Biology ; £100 for Lecturer on French ; £ICO for Lecturer on German ; £100 for Lecturer on Jurisprudence; £200 for assistant to Professor of Chemistry ; £25 for messenger to Professor of Chemistry ; £200 as share of Registrar's salary ; £75 for bookkeeper ; £60 for clerk ; £75 for share of

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porter's salary; £25 for assistant. The College incidental expenses, including fire, lighting, &c, are put down at £550, and the incidental expenses connected with the laboratory at £160. The other expenses are as follows s Insurance of College, £42 ; of laboratory, £29 Is. 3d.; grant to College library, £100; six exhibitions of £20 each, £120; £96 13s. 4d. for inspection of reserves ; and £200 for passage-money of another professor, the Board of Governors having decided to separate the chairs of classics and English literature and appoint an additional professor, his salary to commence on the lst of January next. The total expenditure, including salaries and all other items, is £1,457 1-ls. 7d. I may add that the figures I have given are taken from the College estimates, for the year ending 31st December, 1879. 3538. Professor Sale.] Is the College library you allude to a special library for the use of the students ? —I understand that it is ;it is under the charge of the Professorial Council, and, of course, is not open to the public. 3539. Were the six exhibitions recently founded? —Tes, they were established last year, and the examinations have taken place, and the money will be paid this year. All particulars will be found at page (il of the Canterbury College Calendar. The exhibitions are open to matriculated students attending lectures at the College; the annual value of each is £20, and they are tenable for one year. 3540. Are these the only prizes offered to the students of the College ?—Those are the only prizes they have had hitherto. I should be very glad to see more prizes offered if we had more money. 3541. The Chairman.] Do the professors of the College receive any remuneration besides their salaries ? Do they participate in the fees ? —Tes ; they get the class fees, but not the matriculation fees. 3542. What are the fees charged?— The following is the regulation regarding fees: "1. Every candidate for matriculation shall, previous to examination, pay to the College a fee of one guinea. This fee shall not be returned to him in the event of his failure, but he shall be allowed to present himself at any subsequent matriculation examination without payment of any additional fee. 2. A fee of one guinea shall he paid by each student who, in either term, enters his name for any course of lectures of two hours per week, and, if the lecture be not delivered twice a week, the fee shall be at the rate of half a guiuca per hour per week. 3. Any student who has attended a course of lectures during at least one term shall be entitled to be examined at the annual examination in the subject of that course without payment of any examination fee. The examination fee for all other students shall be half a guinea for each subject." 3543. What would be the full charge per year for a student attending a full course of instruction? —From £12 to £15 a year. 3544. Is there any provision made for boarding students, either in the College building or in houses licensed for the purpose? —No. 3545. Does the Board of Governors contemplate providing proper boarding accommodation for students coming from a distance?—lt has been in the minds of a number of members of the Board that it would be a desirable thing to have licensed houses in which students could reside, but there has been no resolution on the subject, and the idea has not yet taken any practical shape. 3540. Has the want for such establishments arisen yet ? —lt has not been pressing enough to require action. 3547. Professor Brown.] But there are several students boarding in Christ's College, are there not? —At any rate the want has not been brought under the notice of the Board as a matter of imperative necessity, or as requiring present attention. 3548. The Chairman.] Can you inform the Commission what object this College had in view in becoming affiliated to the University of New Zealand? —To obtain degrees —that the students might obtain degrees which would be recognized in all parts of Her Majesty's dominions—degrees of the same value as those granted by the Universities of Great Britain. 3549. Did the College participate in any way in the grant made by the University of New Zealand to affiliated institutions ?—None of that money came into our Treasurer's hands that I am aware of. AYe may have benefited by affiliation indirectly, but we received no money from the University. 3550. Has the College suffered in any way from the competition of other educational institutions ? —I think not; because there is no other institution here that can rival or compete with this College. 3551. How many ladies are attending lectures iv the College? —Eighteen attended last year. This year, the first term having just commenced, fourteen only are attending. 3552. Tou are perhaps aware that, in some educational establishments in the colony, secondary and grammar-school education is combined with University education. Do you think that system of combining the two classes of education is a desirable one ?—-No ; I do not think it is—wherever a college can be established, University education should bo kept separate. 3553. By whom was the curriculum of study in the College drawn up ? —lt was drawn up in conformity with the requirements of the University. 3554. Was it drawn up by the Board of Governors, or by the Professorial Council ?—By the Professorial Council, and approved of by the Board of Governors. 3555. And by whom was the time-table arranged? —By the Professorial Council, under the approval of the Board ; but in this matter the Board have had more to say than in the other—there was a conference between the Professorial Council and tho Board. 3556. Is the present time-table found convenient for the students attending the College ?—I learn from the professors that it is the best time-table under the circumstances. It is a very difficult thing to have a time-table that will suit all the students. 3557. Is it drawn up for the benefit of ordinary college students coming from grammar schools, or secondary schools ?—lt is drawn up to suit the two classes of students —matriculated students who come to pursue a regular course of University education, and also those who do not intend to go iv for degrees, but wish to benefit as much as the time at their disposal will permit, by attending tho lectures of the professors.

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3558. Hare any complaints been made to the Board of Governors about tbe lateness of the hours at which certain lectures have been held ? —Tes ; there have been complaints, and the difficulty was remedied by a conference with the professors, and without there being any material difference of opinion between them and the Board. 3559. Then you are of opinion that the present time-table meets the requirements of all the students ? —Tes, the present requirements ; but I think it is tho feeling of tho Board that the late lectures should be discontinued as soon as possible, and that all lectures should be given during the day. 3560. Professor Drown.] Are you aware that for throe years there was a lecture in English literature given on Monday evenings from 8 till 9 o'clock, which had an average attendance of thirty; and that this year the hour has been changed to from 7 until 8 o'clock, and that the attendance has been reduced to twenty ?—I was not aware of such a reduction in the numbers. 3561. Professor Sale.] Do you think it desirable that the work of the College should bo arranged mainly to suit the convenience of regular students, or to suit the convenience of students who are otherwise occupied during the day? —I think that, as an educational establishment, we should endeavour to make the College available for those who may not be able to pursue a regular course of study, with the view of taking a degree. 3562. What do you think should be the main object in arranging the time-table? —The object should be to make a time-table to suit those who intend to pursue a regular and liberal course of education—that is, matriculated students, and also those others who wish to take advantage of the College course, and who do not intend to go in for degrees. 3563. In case of a conflict betwecu the interests of the students who devote their whole time to study, and those who are otherwise engaged during the day, and devote only a portion of their time to study, what course do you think the College ought to adopt in arranging the time-table ?—lt would depend on the number of students in each of these divisions. If there were only very few devoting their whole time to a regular course of study, and there were a great many of the others who wished to benefit by the instruction given in the College, I think the many should have a great deal of consideration. 3564. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Has the conflict supposed in tho last question occurred in any instance within your knowledge ? —I am not aware of any conflict; it is a little difficult to arrange a time-table to suit both classes, but I am not aware that there has been any conflict. 3565. The Chairman.] What is the present arrangement of the terms in the College ? —The terms are given as follows in the Calendar: "1. The whole academic year shall be divided into two terms. The first term shall commence on the first Monday in March, and end on the third Saturday in June. The second term shall commence on the third Monday in July, and end on the first Wednesday in November. 2. In the first term the lectures shall begin on the second Monday in March, and end on the third Saturday in June. In the second term the lectures shall begin on the third Monday in July, and end on the first Saturday in October." 3566. Are these terms considered satisfactory ?—There has been some difference of opinion regarding them. Some members of the Board thought there should be three terms, and more time given to lectures, and a committee which was appointed to consider the subject held a conference with the professors, whose views the committee acknowledged were in the main correct. I myself held an opinion that it would bo better to change the terms, but I was convinced, by the very cogent reasons urged by the professors, that there were a number of circumstances which stood in the way of an alteration of the terms. The University examination-papers, which are sent to .Melbourne at the end of the year, are not always returned until tho beginning of March, and it is advisable that students should know whether they have got their degrees, and in what position they stand, before another term is commenced. Many members of the Board were strongly in favour of an alteration in the terms, but, after conferring with the professors, they came to the opinion that the best course was to adopt the present arrangement. 3567. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Has the experiment of having three terms in the year ever been tried in the College?—lt was tried, and abandoned. 3568. -The Chairman.] Will you furnish the Commission with a copy of the professors' report on the subject of the terms? —Tes. 3569. Professor Cook.] What portion of the year is devoted to lectures under the present arrangement ? —Twenty-six weeks. 3570. And what time is devoted to examinations ?—One week is devoted to the matriculation examination ; two weeks to the pass examinations ; and two weeks to the exhibition examinations. 3571. Professor Sale.] Do you think it desirable that all the institutions affiliated to the University of New Zealand should follow some uniform plan in dividing the year into terms of study ? —I think it would be advisable in the case of regular colleges ; but there are grammar schools affiliated which are merely ordinary schools, taking in boys of nine or ten years of age, aud, of course, it would not do for such establishments to be closed from the lst November until the beginning of March. There are only two colleges—the University of Otago, and Canterbury College. It would be an advisable thing in their case; but I think each college must, for the present, suit its own convenience. 3572. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you thiuk that the present mode of filling up vacancies on the Board of Governors is a satisfactory one ? —lt has worked very satisfactorily. Tou are aware that when there are thirty graduates of the University belonging to the College they will have the power of filling up vacancies. 3573. Professor Shand.] Do you approve of the members of the Board of Governors being appointed for life?— They are appointed subject to certain disabilities —such as insolvency, and so on. I think it is an advisable thing that men who take a great interest in education should continue to be on the Board, if they do not do anything to disqualify themselves. 3574. But do you not think that, if they were elected for a term of years, men who had made themselves useful on the Board would be sure of re-election ?—I think so. I think it would be better

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,to elect the members for a term of years, but not for a short term. Ido not think there should be anything like annual elections, but that the period should be five or seven years. 3575. Do you think it desirable that the teaching staff should be, in any way, represented on the Board?—l do not think it desirable at present that they should be. When the revenues of the College are sufficient, and we have finished our buildings, &c, it might be different, but at present we require men with business knowledge on the Board. We have a number of highly-educated gentlemen on the Board now. lam not in favour of the professors being on the Board at present. 3576. Is there anything in the present Constitution to prevent a professor being elected a member of the Board ?—No. I may say that the Board consults the professors in all matters connected with the College course ; and, as Chairman, it is always my desire to consult them on all subjects affecting the welfare of the College, and particularly ou those subjects of which, from the nature of their calling, they have a thorough knowledge. We wish to defer to their opinions on all matters on which we know their opinions are valuable. 3577. Professor BroivnJ] Are they consulted about the Library, the Girls' High School, or the Boys' High School-, where their opinions might be of some value ? —The professors have been consulted by me personally on various things connected with the Girls' High School, and two of their number are the examiners of that institution. 3578. Are they asked as a body to give advice ?—Not respecting the Girls' High School, nor the Library, that I am aware of. 3579. The Chairman.] There is a certain endowment for the Agricultural College : will you state what it is ? —lt consists of 100,950 acres of pastoral land, which formed the original endowment. 3580. When that was reserved from the public estate, was it intended for an agricultural school ? ■—Tes. 3551. In what year was it reserved ?—lt was reserved about the same time that the reserves for superior education were made—l think in 1873. 3582. In whom was the estate vested ?—ln the Superintendent. It was intended by the resolution of the Council to be vested in certain persons then named, but afterwards, by " The Canterbury Educational Beserves Sale and Leasing Act, 1876," it was vested in the Board of Governors of the Canterbury College. 3553. Professor Cook.] But previous to that date had it not been administered by the Board of Governors of the Canterbury College ?—There was no administration then, nor anything done. There was nothing done towards the establishment of a school, and no money was expended in connection with it until the Act of 1876 came into force. 3584. But, as a matter of fact, when the Canterbury College was first started, was it not handed over to the Board of Governors as part of their estate, and in connection with the other large reserves referred to in the earlier part of your evidence ?—No, it was not. 3585. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Was not the management handed over to the Board of Governors while the estate remained vested in the Superintendent ?—No ; but from the tenor of a letter dated 12th July, 1873, received from the Provincial Secretary, the Board assumed it would be. 3586. The Chairman^] As far as you are aware, has there been any variation of the trust from the original reservation for an agricultural school? —Since the reservation, the body administering the trust has been changed, but the terms of the trust have not been altered. 3587. What has been done with the estate in the way of selling or leasing it?—Up till the lst January, 1879, 30,958 acres of the reserve had beeu sold, at £2 per acre, yielding £79,910. The unsold portion, consisting of 60,992 acres, with the exception of 5,000 acres, has been leased Jo pastoral tenants, and produces this year a rent of £559 18s., which will be due on the lst May. The 5,000 acres referred to are unlet, the land being of a comparatively worthless description. The pastoral tenants pay at the rate of £1 for every 100 acres. 3588. How has the purchase-money of the land which has been sold been applied?—A sum of £10,055 os. 6d. has been spent in the purchase of a farm, comprising 403 acres. 3589. Where is that farm situated?—At Lincoln. 3590. How has the remaining portion of the purchase-money been applied? —We have appropriated a certain amount to College buildings. 3591. How much ? —lTndor the 10th section of " The Canterbury Educational Beserves Sale and Leasing Act, 1876," we appropriated a sum of £7,954 towards the erection of the east wing of this College, and towards the purchase of the building now used as a Girls' High School, which is to be devoted to College purposes, a building for tho Girls' High School to be erected elsewhere with the purchase-money. 3592. Professor Shand.] From whom did you purchase tho Girls' High School buildings?— From tho College authorities; it is under the College. We had to obtain the sanction of the Governor to this. 3593. Were the buildings erected by the College ?—They were erected under the supervision and control of the College. 3594. And from what funds ?—Provincial funds. 3595. A grant given by the Provincial Council for the purpose?—Tes. 3596. The Chairman.] Has any money been expended on the erection of buildings on the farm ? — Tes ; but we are not expending that out of capital, because it is a question whether wo can do so or not, and we are going to submit the point for legal opinion. We are now putting up the buildings out of income. 3597. What is done with the unexpended balance ?—lt is lent out. 3598. How much ? —The whole of it is lent out with the exception of £1,264 15s. 6d. 3599. How much money is at present invested on mortgage ?—On the 31st December the amount was £43,038, and tho balance in hand came to £L 8,264 15s. od., all of which, with the exception of £1,264 15s. od., has since been lent out. 3600. I understand that generally the money bears 8 per cent. ? —For the last sum of £10,000 we receive 10 per cent., and for the rest 8 per cent.

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3601. "What is the total income produced by the trust ? —£559 18s. will be received this year by way of rents, and £4,040 as interest on £01,302 invested and balance in the bank. On part of this money lent on mortgage there will only be interest for half a year, as the money was lent in January and March, and I am also allowing for loss of interest on proposed purchase-money of 100 acres for the farm. Nest year the amount of interest will be £4,864. 3602. What is the annual expenditure ? —Strictly speaking the institution has not yet commenced as a school. We have purchased the farm; we have done some planting and some fencing ; we have bought some stock ; and we are now erecting a building for the school; but until the school is in active operation, (with students attending, we cannot tell what the annual cost will be. I have called a meeting of the committee, and we intend to endeavour to arrive at an estimate of the annual expenditure, but I do not expect that we shall be able to do so at present within £1,000. 3603. Tou have engaged a teacher? —"We have engaged a director to conduct the farm and teach the students. 3604. At how much per annum ? —£6oo, and residence. 3605. And the buildings are being erected now ?—Tes; the school w-ill contain apartments for twenty students —bedrooms, study-rooms, lecture-hall, laboratory, and residence for director and servants. 3606. At what cost is it proposed to erect this building ?—The contract price is £10,967 13s. 4d. 3607. From what source will the money come ? —AVe have passed a resolution to take it out of the annual income, and we are anticipating the annual income; but I may say that we are going to ask the opinion of the solicitor as to whether we can charge an}* of it to capital account. 3608. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou mentioned that a laboratory would be included in the building: is there any provision for a small museum or specimen-room as well ? —Tes ; there is a room 14 feet by 22 feet for museum and library. 3609. The Chairman.] Is the unsold portion of the reserve as valuable as the portion that has been sold ? —No, not nearly as valuable ; the best land has been picked. 3610. Do you think such a large revenue as is enjoyed at present by this institution is requisite for the maintenance of an agricultural school? —I do not think it would all be required for the maintenance of au agricultural school, but we are anticipating our revenue for three years, and are putting up buildings and purchasing stock. If we could erect our buildings and buy stock out of capital, and start the school fair, it would not take anything like the amount to support the school, or even half. 3611. Professor Cook.] I think you said you had purchased some more land recently for the school ? —Tes. 3612. How much ?—About 100 acres. 3613. Then the farm will now consist of 500 acres ? —Tes. 3614. Do the additional 100 acres adjoin the other portion ? —Tes. I may say that the land we have lately purchased, and a portion of that previously acquired, is some of the finest land in the province. 3615. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have pains been taken to select land of varied quality ? —Tes ; from light land to heavy swamp land. 3616. Professor Drown.] "Was it originally intended that this reserve for the Agricultural School of 100,000 acres should be more valuable than either of the other reserves of 100,000 acres? —There is no evidence of that either in the Act of Parliament or in the resolution of the Provincial Council. lam under the impression that it was considered that the different pastoral reserves would be of equal value, but there is no evidence on the point. 3617. The Chairman.] Did the Provincial Council give as much land for the maintenance of an agricultural school as for the maintenance of this College? —Tes ; as much pastoral land. The College also possesses classical-school reserves, which, being composed of agricultural land, return considerably more annual rent. 3618. Professor Sale.] Referring to the classical-school reserves, which form part of the endowment of Canterbury College, will you state for what purpose they were originally made ?—I am under the impression they were made for a classical school before the question of a college was under consideration—made for the advancement of higher education. 3619. Can you tell us what object the Government had in making these reserves for a classical school, seeing that Christ's College was already iv existence ?—I think the object of the Provincial Council was to have a provincial educational establishment under the control of tho Government, or under the control of a body appointed by the Council. 3620. Tou mean in contradistinction to the institution under the control of the English Church ? —Or any other body. There was a high school besides Christ's College—a high school belonging to the Presbyterian body. 3621. Endowed? — No, not endowed. I did not understand that the classical school w-as intended as a rival school, or to be in opposition, to any other school, but as a school for all classes of Her Majesty's subjects in Canterbury, irrespective of denomination. 3622. Professor Cook.] How did Canterbury College become possessed of this endowment ? —By a Provincial Ordinance of 1875. 3623. Professor Shand.] Tou said that by-and-by, when the buildings at the Agricultural School have been erected, and the farm has been stocked, the income will be more than double the amount that will be required for keeping up the school ? —That is my opinion. 3624. Do you know what the Board proposes to do with the excess of income ? —They have not even considered that yet, because they have not got as much as will pay their way at present. There is a difficulty in paying their way and putting up the present buildings out of the accrued rents and interest. 3625. And you have not thought, yourself, of any useful purpose to which it could be devoted?— Ko, I have not; it is three years ahead.

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.626. Professor Drown.] Do you not think that some departments of the College proper want additional funds ?—I think we require a great deal more for the College proper than we have got. AYe require additional professors —two or three Chairs, I think, should be established to make the College complete ; and the growing wants of the College will be considerable. At present we have only £200 per annum for modern languages ;in my opinion we want a professor of modern languages. Then we want a professor of biology; and we require a professor to teach jurisprudence, constitutional history, and political economy. 3627. Professor Shand.] Could you legally apply any surplus funds arising from the agricultural trust to College purposes proper?—l do not think so, beyond a reasonable amount for teaching certain subjects useful to agricultural students. 3628. Professor Brown.] Which teaching is at present paid for by the College proper ?—Tho teaching is paid for altogether by the College proper, except to the extent of £500, which sum we take annually from the funds of the Agricultural School Trust as a contribution towards the general expenses of the College, part of which expenses are fairly chargeable to the Agricultural School, and as a contribution towards the salaries of the professors and lecturers, whose teaching is in a measure an advantage to those who will become agricultural students. 3629. And is it proposed to bring the Agricultural School into connection with the Canterbury College course in anyway?— That point has not beeu definitely settled. There have been various proposals ; some think it will be necessary to have a complete course of study pursued at the Agricultural School, aud others are of opinion that students could devote one or two half-days in the week to attending lectures at the College. 3630. Do those holding the former view propose to establish separate lectureships at the Agricultural School—different from the lectureships at the College on the same subjects —say, for instance, a lectureship in chemistry or physical science ? —The Director of the school will teach chemistry, and elementary physical science, but the latter not to the same extent that it can bo taught at the College. 3G31. If the students required more advanced work, would the Agricultural School Committee or the Board propose to establish separate lectureships in the Agricultural School, or would they take advantage of the lecturing power in this College ? —lt is not a matter which has been decided yet. The place will not be ready for the students until the end of the current year, and before that time the whole matter will be considered. The Board has not yet seen its way clearly as to how the Agricultural School is to be worked in connection with the College —how far the teaching power of the professors of the College can be utilized for the benefit of the school. 3632. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] "What is the distance of the school from town? —Fifteen miles. There is a railway station near the school. 3633. Professor Shand.] Do you not think it would be possible for the agricultural students to spend a certain portion of the year attending lectures at the Canterbury College, aud the rest of the year at the Agricultural School ? —I think it would be possible for the students to spend a portion of the week here, but not a portion of the year : they could not be away from the Agricultural School for that length of time. It will be necessary for them to be at the school from day to day to observe the operations at the farm ; for it is not intended that they shall merely learn from books —they will have to work, do the ploughing, clean the horses down, and do general work on the farm ; so that they shall not only be able to tell how a thing should be done, but be able to do it themselves. That, I believe, is the intention of the Board. 3634. Professor Drown.] Could not they take the theoretical part of their course in a year, separate from the two or three years of the practical course? —That is one of the questions to which the Board has not seen its way clearly. As we proceed we shall see our way better. In the meantime we have got a Director who is able to teach chemistry, and the elementary portion of the other sciences connected with agriculture; but the question will arise whether he can spare the time to give instruction in other sciences besides chemistry. 3635. Professor Cook.] You said you thought it desirable that a Chair of biology should be established iv this College : do you not think the Board might proceed to establish such a Chair in this College out of the funds of the Agricultural School ? Do you think that would bo going beyond the purposes of the trust ? —I do not think it would be beyond the purposes of the trust for the Agricultural School to contribute a part of the expense ; because agricultural students could avail themselves of the lectures given. 3636. Professor Drown.] Are there any scholarships established, or intended to be established, in connection with the Agricultural School ?—The Board has decided to establish six scholarships. 3637. Professor Sale.] Of what value? —Free tuition and free board. 3638. Professor Drown.] Is it intended in any way to bring these scholarships into connection with an educational course ? Are the students to be examined in any part of a liberal education ? —The Board has decided that it is expedient that these scholarships should be established; but, as to the examination which the candidates will have to undergo, that has not yet been determined. 3639. Professor Shand.] Has it been settled whether the scholarships are to be given by competition or by presentation ? —lt is decided that they shall be open to competition. I cannot give the exact words of the resolution, but I am quite sure I speak the mind of the Board when I say they are to be open to competition from the whole colony. 3640. Will the examination be held in different parts of the colony ? —That has not been decided, but I should think it would, for otherwise the candidates would not all be able to attend. If candidates entered their names from different parts of the colony, the best course would probably be that, in the centres of population, there should be some person appointed to receive the papers and watch the work being done, as is the case in regard to the University examinations, and that then the papers should come to the Board of Examiners. 3641. Tou desire, in short, to make the Agricultural School an institution for the benefit of the colony at large, and not merely for the benefit of Canterbury ?—Tes. 3642. The Chairman.] Have any school charges been fixed for admission to the school ?—No ; the

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fees have not been fixed. The intention is to make them exceedingly moderate. Por tho boarding the charge will be £50. 3643. Has any minimum age been fixed for admission ? —No, it has not 3*et been decided. 3644. Professor Sale.] Is the Director to have charge of the boarding establishment?—Tes. 3645. And to undertake the boarding of students at the rate you have mentioned?—Tes. 3646. The Chairman.] Is there any provision for the attendance of day pupils, or is it to be solely a boarding establishment ?—We expect a good many young men who will board with farmers, and that we shall have a number of fanners' sons ; but there will be provision for twenty boarders, and we hope there will be forty or fifty other students. 3647. Do you anticipate that, in the course of a year or two after starting, there will be twenty boarders ? —I think there will be that number immediately, or shortly after the school commences. I know a good many now who wish to come. 3648. Had the Director any previous experience in the conduct of such an institution ? —Tes ; he got his education at Cirencester College. He is a member of that College, Fellow of the Chemical Society of London, and Fellow of the Institute of Chemistry of Great Britain and Ireland ; and he had the management of a farm in England of 600 acres before he came out: he is a scientific and practical farmer. At the time he applied for the appointment as Director to this school, he held the appointment of Scientific Superintendent and Director of the Experimental Farm and Agricultural College Ueserves in Victoria. 3648 a. Professor Drown.] Tou spoke of something like a matriculation examination for the Agricultural School ?—Tes ; I think there will be such an examination. 3649. Is that examination intended to be in subjects cognate to those taught in the school, or iv the subjects of a liberal education ? —Tho extent and the character of the examination have not yet been decided, but I think it is the mind of the Board that only students who have attained a certain proficiency in general knowledge will be admitted as boarders. 3650. Professor Shand.] With regard not only to the Agricultural School endowment, but also to the other endowments, consisting of pastoral lands, when do the leases expire ? —ln the year 1880; but the term has been extended by the General Assembly until 1890, at an increased rent. That rent has been assessed by the Waste Lands Board. 3651. Does the Board anticipate a greatly increased revenue from its reserves when the leases fall in, in 1880? —Not a great increase, but an increase. A considerable portion of the land is of poor quality, and I understand that some of the tenants say they cannot pay the increase, aud that they may give the land up. Most of the land is mountain country, where sheep do not increase much. I understand some of tho tenants, after severe winters, are obliged to get fresh stock to keep up the quantity the country can carry in summer. 3652. It is only then in the event of a large portion of the land being sold that you would anticipate any great increase of revenue? —-That is all. As far as I can see we shall be very hard upfor money in the year 1880, and shall have the utmost difficulty to scrape along. 3653. Is there any special provision made for the maintenance of the Girls' High School ?—Tes; 5,000 acres of land were set apart for that institution. Of that, 2155 acres were sold at £2 per acre, bringing in £4370 ; the rest of the land cannot be sold. It can be leased ;it is unlet. 3654. What has been done with the purchase-money received for the land sold ? —We lent out £4,250 at 8 per cent., and there is a balance in hand of £120. The interest on the £4,250 amounts to £340. Tiie 2,850 acres, being unlet, yields nothing. The survey of the land has only recently been completed. I have no doubt the Board will take steps to let it as soon as a fair rental can be obtained. Everything is very dull at present, and the land will not probably realize much if let while this depression lasts. 3655. Professor Sale.] Is it agricultural land ? —Tes. 3656. The Chairman.] Has the school no other aid from public funds ? —Tes. Last year it had £300 out of the reserves for secondary education, and the School Commissioners have this year paid over to the College £625 for high-school purposes, and I intend to ask the Board to appropriate that altogether to the Girls' High School, as the Boys' High School is not yet in existence, and the Girls' School wants the assistance very urgently. 3657. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is there any prospect of a similar vote in the future? —No, I think very little. 3658. Why is there no prospect ? —Because that money was the accrued rent received from the secondary-education reserves, before the Canterbury portion of those reserves was passed over to the Boys' High School, and the Timaru and Ashburton High Schools. 3659. In future, then, I understand that the Boys' High School will have a certain proportion of the secondary-school estate, and that there will be nothing left for the Girls' High School ?—lt has got the proceeds of the 5,000 acres. 3660. But nothing out of the School Commissioners' estate ? —Very little, if anything. 3661. Professor Shand.] Were the 5,000 acres for the Girls' School taken out of the reserves for secondary education in Canterbury? —No, they formed a special endowment. 3662. Have the whole of the reserves for secondary education in Canterbury been now given to the Boys' School? —No ; this High School in Christchurch, the High School at Timaru, and the High School at Ashburton, have all participated in the reserves, and they are not yet all exhausted ; there are rents to the amount of £200 or £300 a year still to come to the School Commissioners. 3663. Professor Cook.] Will the Girls' School get no share of that ? —lt is possible that they will, if it be not applied to the purposes of high schools in other school districts iv Canterbury, where at present no high schools exist, and for which no special provision has been made. 3664. The Chairman.] What is the expenditure upon the Girls' High School?— The expenditure which I estimate for this year is as follows: Lady-principal, £400 and house-rent £50, and capitation fee of ss. per head upon each scholar attending school, £25; first assistant-teacher, £300; second assistant-teacher, £200; third assistant-teacher, £160; fourth assistant-teacher, £160; teacher of class 23— H. 1.

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singing, £100; share of Eegistrar's salary, £75; share of porter's salary, £45 ; rent of three-quarters of an acre garden, £75; insurance upon £5,400, £21 10s.; taxes, fuel, repairs, incidental expenses, £369 10s.; two exhibitions to be paid this year of £20 each, and four exhibitions of £10, £80 ; and lecturers on science, £56: making altogether £2,117. 3665. Professor Sale.] How is it proposed to meet this expenditure ? —There was a small balance iv hand on the lst January. £340 will be received for interest, and £280 for half of the rent which I hope to get in this year. I will ask tho Board to appropriate the £625, which has been received for secondary education, to the Girls' High School this year; and I estimate that we may receive about £1,000 in fees. The fees are at the rate of three guineas per term for children under twelve, and four guineas for children over twelve, there being three terms in the year. Extras are paid for by the parents, and do not come into these calculations at all. 3666. Professor Shand.] Do you anticipate that tho income will be sufficient after the present year, when you will no longer have the benefit of £600 from the secondary-school reserves ?—I may say I thiuk "there will be great difficulty in keeping up the school in a thoroughly efficient state, unless we get some additional income beyond the pupils' fees and the existing endowments. Ido not think the existing endowments will be sufficient. 3667. Professor Cook.] Do you not anticipate that these endowments will yield about £900 a year —£340 and £560 ?—Tes ; about £900 a year. This year there is only £280 put down for half a year ; next year the amount will probably be £560. If the number of scholars increase, and we have fifteen or twenty more, that will make an addition of £200. AYe are just at that point in regard to the number of scholars when tho institution is most expensive : in fact, we could take twenty or more scholars without having to appoint any additional scholars. With the present number of pupils, we cannot well do with fewer teachers. 3068. Professor Shand.] How is the teacher of drawing paid ? —By fees. 3609. Do you know what the fees are?— One guinea per term. 3670. Are the teachers of music also paid by fees?— Yes, except for teaching class singing. 3671. "What arc the fees for instrumental music ?—ln the first class, £3 13s. Gd ; second class, 2\ guineas ; third class, 2 guineas. The German is IJ guineas. Dancing and calisthenics, \\ guineas. In the regular school course, class singing and French arc not extras. 3672. The Chairman.] How long has the school been established ?—A year and a half. 3673. How were girls in Christchurch educated before the school was established ?—ln private schools. Many are still being educated iv private schools ; the number of those schools has not lessened at all. 3674. Professor Shand.] You have made no arrangement for boarders? —No. 3675. Is it the intention of the Board to make arrangements? —It is not tho intention of the Board to make arrangements for having boarders on the premises ; but they have considered the question of whether it would not be advisable to have licensed houses —houses the respectability of which they could vouch for, aud over which they could exercise some supervision. 3676. The Chairman.] "With regard to the Boys' High (School, is there any special provision made for the school by way of endowment ? —Yes. There was a reserve of 9,326 acres set apart for the Boys' High School by Act of Parliament in 1878, and part of it has been let, and will bring in this year £922 2s. 4d ; there are 3,542 acres of this reserve not yet let. 3677. Did this endowment form a portion of the former endowments for secondary education?— These reserves were originally made for primary education. By the Act of 1877, one-fourth was set apart for secondary education within the province, and, by an Act of 1878, one-half, or 9,326 acres, out of that one-fourlh were allocated to tho Boys' High School. 3678. Is that the only endowment, or public money, enjoyed by the Boys' High School ? —Yes, as annual income. We have money for putting up the buildings. 3679. What amount have you for that object, and how did you get it?—AVe received a grant from the General Assembly in 1877 of £15,000, a portion of which was to go to the High School at Timaru. The College applied £6,000 of that money to the school at Timaru, aud kept £9,000 for the school in Christchurch. 3680. Was this to come out of any special fund?— Out of the £15,000 voted by the General Assembly and taken out of the Laud Fund of Canterbury. 3681. Is that £9,000 being expended now for the purpose of erecting the building ? —Yes. 3682. Is the contract entered into ? —Yes; the foundations are commenced. 3683. AVhat will be the cost ?—£8,889 Bs. 6d. 3684. AVhen is it proposed to open the school ?—Fifteen months from the date of the contract is the time specified for the completion of the building; the school will not be open for twelve months. 3685. Has anything been done towards obtaining a staff of masters?— No, nothing has yet been done by the Board. The mind of the Board is, I believe, to send Home to England for a first-class man, a good organizer, as headmaster, perhaps at a salary of £800; and probably to send for a second master also. 3686. Do you propose to provide the headmaster with a house ? —No. 3657. Professor Shand.] Do you propose to allow him to take boarders ?—That has not yet been decided; but there is a feeling on the part of some members of the College Board that the headmaster should not take boarders ; that, when that is done, the school becomes a commercial establishment, instead of a strictly educational establishment, and that it is better to pay a good man a sufficient salary and not have his time occupied with butchers' and bakers' bills. 3685. The Chairman.] Then the building in course of erection is not designed for the reception of boarders ? —No. 3689. Professor Sale.] Can you state how the cost of erecting the building used by the Canterbury College was defrayed? —By grants from the Provincial Government. 3690. To what amount ? —College buildings, including chemical laboratory, £9,353 18s. Gd.; east wing of College, now nearly complete, £4,400. The cost of this wing will be defrayed by amount

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appropriated from proceeds of sale of reserves, in accordance witb the provisions of "The Canterbury . Educational Eeserves Sale and Leasing Act, 1576." 3091. What sums of money, other than those which have been already referred to, have been at any time granted by the Provincial or General Government for the purposes of this College, or its dependent institutions?— Site for College, £1,750; fittings for College and chemical laboratory, £1,386 ; amount received for maintenance of College since 1573, £12,063 7s. Museum : Grant from Provincial Government, £13,624 10s. lid. for buildings since 1874 (but previous to that time there was expended by the Provincial Government on buildings about £7,000) ; on fittings, £1,000; and for maintenance and additional fittings since 1873, £6,393. Girls' High School: Buildings, £5,000, and £1,030 for the site, and £800 for maintenance. Public Library: For buildings, £4,000; fittings, £250 ; grant for books, £1,000 for reference department, and for maintenance and books to circulating department since 1873 £3,306 10s. The balances to the credits of the above amounts (particulars of which have been given previously), on the lst January, 1879, are portions of these sums. 3692. The Chairman.] Is there any special endowment for the establishment of a medical school in Christchurch ?—Yes; 5,000 acres were set apart. 3693. What ia the position of that reserve at present ? —lt has only been recently surveyed, and it was found to contain about 300 acres short of the area named. I applied to the Commissioner of Crown Lands for some land adjoining to make up the deficiency, but he informed me that the Government had no power to take any action in the matter. 5,000 acres was tho area mentioned in the Gazette, but there are only 4,030 acres, which we will let as soon as wc can ; at present it is yielding no revenue. 3694. Professor Shand.] What is the character of the land ?-—-It is situated on the plain, and is light land, with a good deal of surface stone upon it. 3695. Is it agricultural land ?—Tes ;it can be ploughed. 3696. The Chairman.] What rental do you anticipate from it ?—lf time 3 were pretty fair we should get 4s. per acre per annum for it for seven years. 3697. And how is the Medical School maintained at present ?—lt is in an embryo state at present, and has no active existence. A committee or Medical Council has been appointed by the College Board, which has this matter in hand aud confers with the medical faculty. When the Medical School is established it will be a department of the College, and under its control; at present we have not got the necessary funds. We nope to see it established very shortly; we have every requisite but the funds. AYe have got a hospital, in which there a sufficient number of beds, and we shall have tho requisite staff to teach everything that is required. It is estimated that £2,000 a year will be necessary to support a medical college properly. 3698. Are any lectures being given at present in the Canterbury College, with a view to fhe establishment of a Medical School ?— No, not beyond the ordinary instruction in chemistry, botany, and biology. 3699. I think there has been some provision made for a Law School?—-No provision has been made, except that law is one of the subjects on which lectures are given in the College. There has been no special provision, because our funds are so short; no doubt we want a professor. 3700. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are any lectures on technical subjects delivered in connection with Ihe Museum, or is the Museum used to illustrate any portion of tho instruction given in any department of the College ? —The Museum is of value in connection with the instruction given in geology, zoology, and botany. 3701. Professor Drown.] Is it the intention of the Board to establish a lectureship in connection with the School of Technical Science ? —That has not been decided; we are getting out models, &c. 3702. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Are any lectures forming part of the College course delivered in the Museum ? —I do not think so ; I think Dr. Haast lectures in the College, but he uses the Museum in connection with his lectures. 3703. The Chairman.] Do you think that tho University of New Zealand, as it at present exists, has assumed the form best suited to the circumstances of the colony'*'—lt is formed for encouraging a liberal education, but not as a teaching body. I think it is better for the encouragement of education, considering the circumstances of New Zealand, that it should not be a teaching body —that it should remain as it is at present. lam not referring to the exact mode in which the members of the Senate are appointed, or anything of that kind ; but, taking the objects of the institution as defined in the 4th section of " The University Act, 1874," my view is that, taking the circumstauces of the colony into consideration, the University in its present form is better calculated to advance higher education than if it were a teaching body. 3704. Professor Cook.] Do you mean by that a teaching body necessarily located at one place?— Tes. 3705. Tou are acquainted with the constitution of the Queen's University in Ireland?— Not very well; I believe there are three colleges forming one University. 3706. Do you think that would be a form of University adapted to the circumstances of New Zealand—a series of colleges at the different centres of population, forming one University ?—Tes. I understand that the colleges in Ireland have individual teaching powers, and are not under the control of the University, but of this lam not certain. The Otago University and Canterbury College are not under the control of the University, provided they conform to certain rules laid down, and the University does not interfere with their internal management, or appoint the professors. By a teaching body, I understand a body that would appoint professors and have the management. 3707. As far as I know each College in Ireland appoints its own officers: do you think that is a form of University adapted to this country ? —Tes. 3708. Professor Sale.] Tou know what institutions are at present affiliated to the University of New Zealand? —1 think I know* them all from memory. 3709. Do you think that all the affiliated institutions now in existence are such as ought to hold the position of aliiliated institutions?—l do not think they should.

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y. 3710. How would you define the sort of institution which you would consider entitled to affiliation? —An institution like the Otago University or the Canterbury College. 3711. Professor Shand.] Tou mean establishments instituted for giving University instruction ? —Tes. 3712. Professor Sale.] It has been advocated in some parts of the colony that institutions which are at present grammar schools should gradually grow into University institutions, and provide University instruction: do you think that is possible without their throwing off the character of grammar schools ?—They might grow into something different from what they are now : that is to say, they might grow from grammar schools into colleges ; but they would have to change their whole course of instruction, and also the mode of admission. 3713. They would, in fact, have to cease to be grammar schools?—Tes; I consider that a grammar school and a college are two distinct institutions. 3714. Tou think it hopeless to attempt to combine school education and college education in one institution ?—Not perhaps hopeless, but I think that, wherever there is a sufficient population to warrant the establishment of a college, such an institution should exist, and, when established, no grammar school in that locality should be affiliated to the University. In a place, however, where the population is not such as to entitle it to a proper college, the grammar school might be affiliated for a time. But those grammar schools would have to be upon a very good footing, and their affiliation should only be a temporary arrangement. 3715. Professor Drown.] Would you approve of the existence of two colleges in one town ? —No. I think it would be inexpedient to have two colleges supported by the State in one town. 3716. Supposing there are two institutions in one town and both consider themselves colleges, do you think they should both be affiliated, or that a choice should be made, and that the LTniversity should only affiliate one?—l would define a college proper to be an institution which gives instruction by means of lectures, and where young men are admitted to matriculate, and can acquire the education necessary to enable them to take degrees; and I should not regard as a college a school for small boys. If the State provided a college in a town, and private individuals chose to establish another, I should have no objection ; but then it should be a college not only in name, but in fact, with all the machinery for teaching that is possessed by Canterbury College or tiie University of Otago. 3717. Where there are two colleges in a town —one a real college, aud the other merely a college in name —should the University put aside the application of the institution which is not a real college ? —Certainly. 3718. It ought to be capable of deciding between the two ?—Certainly. 3719. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Do you consider that the professors of Universities, like those of Melbourne and Otago, receive sufficient salaries?—l do not think they do. The Canterbury College Board has passed a resolution in favour of increasing the salaries of the professors from £600 to £700, which it is proposed they shall receive next year ; and I do not think £700, without house allowance, is sufficient. Of course they get fees, but I think that men possessing the high attainments and having the zeal and energy which are essential iv professors of a college like this should receive liberal remuneration, and I do not think that £800 a year would be too much. 3720. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the University should confine the granting of degrees to students who are on the books of the various affiliated institutions, and do actually keep terms there, or would you be in favour of the granting of degrees to men who come up from private study, and are able to pass the examinations? —I should be in favour of granting degrees to students who could pass the examinations, no matter how their knowledge was obtained—whether privately or at affiliated institutions. 3721. Have you considered what amount of value would attach to affiliation if that principle were admitted —what necessity there would be for affiliation ?—-1 do not know that there would be any absolute necessity for affiliation, but I think it would be very valuable indeed to a college to be connected with the University. 3722. Professor Drown.] Could you define tho special value of the connection —the value, for instance, which results both to Canterbury College and to the University of Otago from their affiliation to the University ? —No doubt the students of the College consider that the education they are receiving is higher than would be the case if the institution were not affiliated to the University. 3723. And is not the same status given to Christ's College Grammar School ? Should not the boys of that school feel the same ?—Probably they would. I have previously expressed my opinion that, where the State provides funds for a college in a town, there should be no other college affiliated in that town, except it has an efficient machinery for imparting higher education, as is possessed by Canterbury College and the Otago University. Therefore Ido not thiuk Christ's College Grammar School should be affiliated. 3724. Professor Sale.] If affiliation wero done away with altogether, would it not get rid of a considerable difficulty which now exists in deciding what institution is fit to be affiliated ? —No doubt it would. 3725. Is it, or is it not, desirable that that difficulty should be got rid of? —I think it desirable that wherever the difficulty occurs it should be met and settled fairly. 3726. Considering the great diversity of the different institutions now affiliated, would it be a serious loss to Canterbury College and Otago University if they ceased to be affiliated? —I think it would injure their status to a considerable extent. I should be very sorry to see this College severed from the University. 3727. Do you think that the class lists would not be a sufficient guide to the public as to which institutions were capable of providing a higher education without the mere name of affiliation? —No doubt they would, if the public looked into the matter; whether the public do look or would look into tiie matter is another thing —they take it for granted that this College is a part of the University of New Zealand,

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Monday, I4_n April., 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Rorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Eev. AY. E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand. Mrs. Ingle was sworn aud examined. 3728. The Chairman.] You are the Lady-Principal of the Christchurch Girls' High School ? — Tes. 3729. How long have you held that office? —Since the beginning of tho last terra, in 1877. 3730. Had you been previously engaged in teaching?—Tes; I had been teaching for some time in a private school, and 1 had private pupils of my own. 3731. Did the starting of the Girls' High School devolve upon you ? —Tes. 3732. How many pupils have you at present? —Eighty-nine. 3733. Have pupils to pass any examination before being admitted to the school?—Tes, they have to pass an easy examination ; they must read fluently, and pass an examination iv dictation, and must know a little of the first four rules of arithmetic. 373-1. Is there any minimum age for admission ?—No ; at first we fixed the age at ten, but, as it was perhaps better to have a forward child of nine than a backward one of ten, we substituted an examination for the limit of age. 3735. Until what age do they generally remain at school ?—I think about seventeen is the average age. 3736. How many assistants have you iv conducting the school ?—Four. 3737. By whom are they appointed ? On your recommendation ? —No ; they are appointed by the Board of Governors of Canterbury College. 3738. Professor Shand.] Does the Board usually consult the Lady-Principal in making the appointments ?—Tes, they did consult me. 3739. In the ease of all appointments ?—Tes ; Miss Edger and Miss Hamilton were appointed about the same time that I was, without any reference to me ; but with regard to the other two teachers I was consulted. 3740. And the Board adopted your recommendation ? —Tes. 3741. The Chairman.] Is there a published prospectus of the school ? —No. 3742. Is there a published time-table ? —No. 3743. AVhat are the fees charged at the school ? —-Three guineas a term for children under twelve years of age, and four guineas for children over twelve. 3741. Is there any provision for taking boarders ?—-No. 3745. Do you think, if you had accommodation for boarders, young ladies would come from the country districts to attend the school ?—Tes, I have reason to think so ; I have had one or two applications—it would be an advantage, I think. 3740. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Under whose control do you think the boarding establishment should be ?—I think it should be under the control of some one unconnected with the teaching staff, because it would be too much work for one person. 1 think that some lady should be authorized to take boarders. 3747. The Chairman.] Are there any charges for extras at the school ?—Tes ; there are extra charges for music, drawing, and German. 3748. What is the charge for music per quarter? —AYe have three different teachers of music. The principal teacher charges three guineas and a half per term ; one of the ladies charges two guineas and a half, and the other two guineas. 3749. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Tou mean instrumental music ? —Tes; nine of the pupils have learnt singing privately. Ido not know what the charge is for that. 3750. Professor Shand.] AVhat is the length of the term ?—Thirteen weeks —there are three terms of thirteen weeks each. 3751. Professor Cook.] The entrance examination is one of the standards of the Board of Education, is it not? —Not exactly. It is something near the Third Standard, but not quite the same. 3752. The Chairman.] Is drawing taught in the school as an ordinary subject, or i 3 it an extra ? —■ Drawing is an extra subject. 3753. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do many girls learn drawing?— Not very many. It rather interferes with the regular course. All the extra subjects are a very great hindrance in that respect, and a good many of tho girls have discontinued them of their own accord, on that account. 3754. Do you find that the music lessons interfere very much with the regular course ? —Tes, they interfere very much indeed. 3755. The Chairman.] Is your present staff of teachers sufficient ? —Tes, I think, quite sufficient. 375 G. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you state what are the ascertained qualifications of your assistants?— Miss Edger has taken a B.A. degree of the New Zealand University; Miss Hamilton, I think, holds a second-class certificate from the Canterbury Board ; and Miss Connon has a first-class certificate, and has also passed the first part of the B.A. degree examination. I think Miss Dunnage has a third-class certificate. 3757. The Chairman.] Does the Board of Governors supply you with maps for the use of the school ?—Tes. 3758. With anything else ? —They supply everything in the way of stationery for the use of the teachers—everything we want; they supply nothing for the pupils. 3759. Professor Cook.] They supply diagrams, models, aud thiugs of that sort? —Tes, everything of that kind.

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3760. Tou think you have sufficient of these ?—Tes. 3761. The Chairman.] Do any of your pupils come from the public primary schools?—Tes, we have several from the primary schools—several who have taken scholarships under the Board of Education. 3762. Are there any special scholarships offered for competition amongst the pupils of the Girls' High School ? —Four scholarships were given last year to the head pupils in each of the first four classes, and three scholarships were given by examination to any one who chose to apply, there being a certain restriction as to age. lam uot certain that the latter scholarships are to be permanent, and that we shall always have them. 3763. Were the winners of these scholarships you have mentioned admitted as pupils into the Girls' High School ?—Tes. 3764. AVhat was the value of the scholarships ? —The open scholarships were £20, and the other scholarships were £10. 3765. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you find that the girls who come up from the primary schools are generally well prepared ? —Tes; they are very well prepared indeed—very much better than the others. 3766. Do you find any difficulty in placing them on account of their want of knowledge on certain subjects that are ordinarily taught in the school ? —No ; I find they learn so well that they easily pick up any new subject. 3767. The Chairman.] AVho conducted the examinations for the scholarships?— Professor Brown and Professor Cook, I think. 3768. Professor Shand.] Are the holders of the Education Board scholarships charged fees, the same as ordinary pupils ?—Tes. 3769. Professor Cook.] Do you know the value of these Education Board scholarships ? —I think it is £40 a year. 3770. Por how long ? —Two years. 3771. The Chairman.] Are there other prizes given in the way of books ?—Tes ; books wore given at the end of last year. They were given to the first three or four in each class; they were not given in the separate subjects. 3772. Were they awarded as the result of an examination, or as tho general result of attendance and learning throughout the year?— They were given as the general result of the examination and of the good-conduct and other marks obtained during the year —everything counted. 3773. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Has there been any remarkable variation from term to term in the number of girls attending the school ?—No, no very remarkable difference ; the numbers last year seemed to come down rather. There were just a few less in the second term than there were in the first, and a few less again in the third term. I think a good many came at first from curiosity, aud, finding they had to work very hard, they left. I accounted for the decrease in that way. 3774. Then, were the girls who leit for the most part the senior girls?— They were girls of all ages. 3775. Professor Drown.] Do you find, with regard to girls who come from ladies' private schools, any difficulty in classifying them, or in getting them into a higher class ? —ln a general way, I find that they are not so thoroughly prepared as those from the primary schools. 3776. Is there a large proportion from private schools ? —Tes ; there are a good many from private schools, and they are certainly not so well grounded as those from primary schools. 3777. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Did you find that most of the girls who came to you were prepared at once to take advantage of what ought to be the highest teaching of a high school? —AVhen they came to us we found that their average attainments were very low indeed. AYe had to do a great deal of preliminary work at first. 3778. Do you think the school has yet reached its proper development in regard to the range of subjects ?—I do not think it has quite done so yet; but it is very much higher now than it was. 3779. And have you any reason to think that the girls who are with you now, making progress, are likely to stay until they have reached what you would regard as the proper standard ? —Tes, a great many of them. I think all those who did not care about studying have left, and nearly all those who are remaining are really industrious, and evidently want to get on. 3780. How long do you think those girls who have been with you from the beginning will have to remain, in order to receive the full advantage of your high-school course —how long from the present time ?—-It depends upon tho class they are in at present. I think the first class this year ought to be the upper first next year. I want each class to advance a step every year, and only to move them at the end of the year ; and when they have reached the upper first class they will be able to attend lectures at the College, and prepare for the matriculation examination; and the second class will then move up, and be the first next year. 3781. So that what you have just called the upper first class will be, in fact, what you would wish to regard as the final class in the school ? —Tes. 3782. Aud you have not been able to reach that stage since the opening of the school until just now ?—Tes ; we have just got an upper first class. 3783. The Chairman.] Are many of your pupils staying at the school with the view of going to the University for matriculation? —I do not know if many of them intend to do so, but it was my idea that they should. Nobody has expressed to me a wish to do so, but I desired to have some examination at the end of the course. I wanted them to work up to some particular point, aud, as we were connected with the College, I thought that would be the best point to fix. 3784. Do any of your pupils attend the lectures given in Canterbury College?—Tes; two. 3785. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are any special lectures given by the professors in the College for the benefit of your scholars exclusively? —Yes. Professor Bickertou is giving a course in natural philosophy. 3786. The Chairman.] Do you find that all classes of the community avail themselves of the school ? —Tes ; I think all classes are represented.

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Professor BickeetO-T, F.C.S., was sworn and examined. 3787. AVhat is your connection with Canterbury College?—l am Professor of Chemistry and Physics. 3788. Perhaps you would favour the Commission by telling us your previous experience in these matters ?—I was a teacher for some years under the Science and Art Department in England, and the Secretary to this Commission told me he had seen my work referred to as having been singularly successful in England. My classes were almost the largest in England ; once or twice, I believe, they rose to the highest percentage of success. 3789. Professor Sale.] In what part of England ? —I taught classes in London, Birmingham, and Southampton ; but in London chiefly. I was also senior Queen's scholar at the Eoyal School of Mines, London. 3790. The Chairman.] And how long have you been connected with Canterbury College? —Since 1874. 3791. Technical schools are included within the scope of our inquiry, and tho Commission would like to know whether you have considered the question of the best means of supplying technical education in this colony?—I have considered the matter in times past a good deal, but not very much recently. My own opinion is that the establishment of a special technical school at the present time would perhaps be premature. I think that the best way in which the progress of technical education would be promoted would be by the introduction of science into schools, and by the establishment of a modified scheme on the plan of the Science and Art Department in England. I dare say you know pretty well the arrangement of the English Science and Art Department. Teachers qualify themselves by passing an examination, and then conduct their own classes under local committees; and they are paid by tbe results of the teaching, the examiners being generally the most eminent men in England. I do not think that it is at all fitting to establish schools for tho special teaching of technical branches —branches of art and manufacture —yet; but by technical education I mean more particularly such a training in geometry, drawing, and elementary science as will enablo the students to understand the principles of the science involved in their afterwork, and I think that such an education might very successfully bo given by means of these evening classes. If we had evening classes of such a kind I do not think there would be a necessity to have anything like the same wide curriculum that they have iv the English Science and Art Department; I. think the number of subjects might be reduced to a considerable extent. I feel perfectly convinced that the population of the colony is sufficient at the present time to permit of the success of such a scheme, and I am very certain that it would be of great use in the colony. 3792. Bey. W. J. Habens.] By what authority do you think that such a modified science and art department as you have indicated should be conducted? —I think it should be conducted by the General Government. 3793. Would you bring it into any relation with tho University ? —I think not. I think it should be purely technical, whereas the University is an institution for general training ; therefore the Senate of the University, it appears to me, would hardly be a suitable body to have the control, not having been selected with that view. 3194. What is your view of the relation of a higher technical training to a liberal education ? —I should say that a fair general education would be all that would be necessary, even for the higher technical training required for a foreman of works or of manufactures. I speak from experience here, for I have known a great many in England who have only had a fair general education, and who have done exceedingly well in some of the higher branches of technical work. 3795. Professor Cook.] When you speak of a modified science and art department, 1 presume you suppose that lectures or teaching should be given in each of the large centres of population ? —Xo ; I mean that that feature of the Science and Art Department should be retained intact which permits classes to be held in any place where a qualified teacher likes to commence them. 3796. On his own account? —Tes. 3797. And paid by results ? —Tes. 3798. Take Christchurch as an example : do you thiuk there is scope here for such a thiug ?— Decidedly. 3799. Have popular lectures been a success here ? —I think they have been. The last popular lecture, or course of lectures, was attended by about forty or fifty persons, nearly all of whom would have developed into students had we continued the classes. There was a strong student feeling among them all; they were constantly asking questions, and after the lecture they would generally stay for nearly an hour asking questions about the apparatus : iv fact, it was more like a class than a popular lecture. 3800. Then you think that, if a properly qualified teacher, with sufficient apparatus, &c, were to start such classes, he might look for an attendance of forty or fifty ? —No, not so many as that, I should think ; but it has always been found with these science and art classes that the whole subject works well together —that if mechanical drawing be taught it will always attract a very large number of artisans to come and learn it, and, after they have been through mechanical drawing, they begin to be interested in other branches, and then other classes are formed, and the thing grows all round. That has been my experience. We generally found that mechanical drawing was the class which students first joined. 3801. Professor Shand.] How would you propose to provide the necessary apparatus?—l would let the teacher look out for himself partly, but give him assistance from the department. 3802. Partly at the expense of the Government, and partly at the expense of the teacher? —Tes ; but the apparatus should be supplied in cheap sets, that would suit tho different branches of science. The Government should have the sets and supply them to the teachers at a cheap rate. 3803. And how would the class-rooms be provided ? —The use of the public schools would be obtained, and various rooms that might be available for the purpose. That is how it is done in England.

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3804. Professor Cook.] Is it the practice partly to supply tho apparatus in England ? —Tes. 3805. Even although the teachers are entirely independent ? —The apparatus in England is not supplied to the teacher; it is supplied to the local committee ; but generally speaking tho teacher has to pay for it, and it remains virtually his property. I think it would be better to let the teacher buy the apparatus at a reduced rate, if he has passed his examination, and is known to bo doing good work. 380(3. Bey. W. J. Habens.] "What service do you think a college such as this should render to the cause of elementary technical instruction ? —My opinion is that a college such as this should give a course of popular evening lectures. By " popular " I mean simply that they should be as far as possible free from such technical expressions as would demand a previous knowledge on the part of the students ; but I do not mean that they should bo other than absolutely scientific —'that is to say, that they should be purely teaching lectures just as much as those given to the University classes. 3807. If this College supplied such popular lectures, would it thereby furnish the kind of instruction which you have been speaking of as properly to bo supplied by a science and art department ? —No, it would not; it would only be an adjunct, just in the same way as my students in London frequently attended the courses of lectures given by Professor Tyndall, Professor Huxley, and others, at the Royal School of Mines. The one is a popular lecture more fully illustrated by experiments than the class teaching would be, and, of course, untutorial—much less tutorial, at all events, than the class would be. They would merely supplement one another. 3808. Professor Cook.] And you thiuk that, in addition to these popular lectures, there is required something more nearly approaching to individual teaching?— Yes. 3809. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How would you propose to rear a race of teachers for the technical classes throughout the country ?—My opinion is that as soon as the scheme was initiated intending teachers would begin to learn by attending lectures provided by Canterbury College and other like colleges. I am of opinion, however, that it would be extremely desirable to supplement this by establishing special classes intended for these teachers. 3810. Professor Shand.] "Tou said you regarded the establishment of technical schools as premature: do you think it is premature to establish a School of Agriculture?—l do not think I have considered that question. The fact is, I have never been iv the slightest degree consulted. Although I was brought out here as Professor of Chemistry, specially in its agricultural features, and did a good deal of lecturing on agricultural chemistry, I have never been consulted in the slightest degree about the Agricultural College, and the matter has consequently not received my attention, and I have not thought much about it. 3811. And, with regard to a school of mines, do you think it would be advisable to establish one in New Zealand ? —I decidedly think that a school of mines might advisedly be established in New Zealand. 3812. "What is your opinion about the propriety of establishing an engineering school in New Zealand?—l think that if an engineering school were established as an isolated school, similar to what has been done in the ease of the Agricultural School, its effect would be injurious, as I believe all such isolated special schools must be; but I believe it might advisedly be established in connection with a college having a large part of the staff that would bo necessary for such an institution. 3813. The Chairman.] Tou have been Chairman of the Professorial Council of Canterbury College: has that body worked satisfactorily in regard to the functions imposed upon it, aud in relation to the governing body of the College ?—lt appears, as far as I know, to have worked quite satisfactorily as far as its functions are concerned. Ido not think any member of the Council has felt perfect satisfaction with its constitution. We have felt that there is a want of vital connection, as it wero, with the Board of Governors, who really have, of course, to do the whole of the work, the functions of the Professorial Council being merely suggestive. A great many subjects are discussed very fully by the Professorial Council which go before the Board of Governors, and, there being no one on the Board who was present at the Professorial Council, the whole of the arguments that tended to produce any definite resolution are lost in the final consideration of the subject. 3814. What are the means of communication between the Professorial Council and the governing body?— The means of communication, as arranged according to the constitution of the Professorial Council, are through the Chairman of the Council. 3815. Is the communication by letter ? —Tes. 381 G. And would a member or members of the Professorial Council appear before the governors to expound the views of that body ? —There is nothing of that sort. The professors are sometimes sent for by the College Committee of the Board of Governors ; but, during the year I was Chairman of the Professorial Council —that is, last year —I have no remembrance of being sent for by the Committee, and I am not aware that any of the professors have been sent for officially to appear before the Board. 3817. Professor Shand.] Has the Professorial Council any legal constitution ? —I believe not; it it simply exists at the pleasure of the Board, and was once abolished for a time. 3018. Does this fact tend to weaken the influence of the Professorial Council ? I mean, would its influence be stronger if it were a legally constituted body ? —I should think so —very much stronger if it had a regular status. 3019. And would that be desirable in the interests of the College?—l should think it would be desirable. I should thiuk anything would be desirable, and to the interests of the College, that gave the voice of the professors more influence than it has at present. 3820. The Chairman.] Have any of the recommendations of the Professorial Council ever been rejected by the Board of Governors without the latter conferring with the Council?— Yes; as an illustration —a recommendation with respect to the mode of the annual College examinations which was made by the professors ; but I am not aware whether they made it as members of the Professorial Council or otherwise. The recommendation was altered without consulting us, and after having stood for two years it was altered back again to our original proposal. 3821. Professor Shand.] Has the Board of Governors been in the habit of taking important steps

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without consulting the Professorial Council ? —Tes. Although the professors were asked by the Superintendent if they were prepared to assist in the organization of the Girls' High School, we were never consulted about the staff or otherwise by the Board of Governors. lam not aware either that the professors were consulted in the establishment of the Agricultural School. In the matter of the library also, I am not aware that they have ever been consulted, nor, as far as I know, with respect to the Boys' High School. 3822. Professor Drown.] In the building of the College originally, was the Professorial Council consulted ?—The professors were put on the Building Committee, and met once or twice. The Committee came to the decision that the building should be erected on the east end of the block, and that the laboratory should be at the back of the building, forming the back of the future quadrangle. The whole of this arrangement was subsequently altered without the professors being consulted ; and in my own case it was only by accident that I discovered that my building would have been left-handed, with all the entrances at the south that ought to have been at the north. 3823. Professor Sale.] I see that the main function of the Professorial Council is, " subject to the approval of the Board of Governors, to fix the course of study, and the days and hours for the lectures and examinations." Have the recommendations of the Professorial Council in these matters been invariably accepted by the Board of Governors ?—On the whole they have been accepted. 3824. Have they also been promptly attended to ? —One of the chief grievances which the professors have experienced has been the waste of time in intercommunication with the Board of Governors. On one occasion, I remember, a prospectus was prepared by us six weeks before the commencement of the sessions, which was not published until six weeks after the session had commenced. 3825. This prospectus, I suppose, contained the arrangement of the work of the term ?—Tes, the advertisement, as it were, of the work of the then proceeding term. There have been a great many cases where this delay has caused unpleasantness. 3826. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you formed any opinion as to the best means of giving to the professors what you would consider their fair share of influence in the conduct of the affairs of the College ?—No, I have not formed any idea. I have, however, felt that if the professors were on the Board, and sat there with the privilege of speaking, the business of the Board would be much facilitated. 3827. Speaking without voting ?—Tes. 3828. Do you think it would be a good plan to allow the professors to be on the governing body, but not to vote on financial questions ? —Tes ; I think that would be a very good arrangement. I would not say, perhaps, all financial questions ; but, certainly, it would be better not to vote on personal financial questions. 3829. Have the Professorial Council ever suggested any means of overcoming this difficulty of intercommunication ? —Tes ; they suggested that certain members of the Board should be members of the Professorial Council, so that they could be present, and hear all discussions, and repeat the arguments to the Board of Governors. 3830. Professor Sale.] Can you suggest any alteration in the constitution of the Board of Governors which would enable it to work more smoothly with the Professorial Council ? —One thing that manifests itself, I think, to every one is that the system of self-election must be exceedingly injurious. One must feel that in the event of there being a clique it could not possibly be destroyed. In the event of there being a large number of members on the Board opposed to the welfare of the College the evil would have to exist in perpetuity. 3831. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you aware that the mode of election to which you refer is only a temporary one ?—I am aware that it is temporary, but the time for its alteration is distant, and the College will then, to a large extent, have crystallized, as it were. 3832. Professor Di-oion.] Is there anything in the constitution of the College which prevents professors being elected to the Board of Governors? —I believe not. 3833. Do you know any reason for the Board not electing professors as members of their body ? —I cannot conceive of any. It has been the greatest matter of astonishment to me that professors have not been elected on the Board. I should never have come to the colony had I known that such would be the case, and that I should have no kind of voice in the management of the institution in which I was to teach. 3834. Have any members of the Board suggested any objection to the election of professors on the Board, or have you ever heard any objection on financial grounds or otherwise ? —No; I have never heard it discussed. 3835. Are there any members on the Board who are engaged in the working of a department of the College?—Tes; Dr. Turnbull and Dr. Coward, who are members of the Board of Governors, are lecturers in the proposed Medical School. 383 G. And do they propose to resign their seats on the Board before beginning their duties as lecturers ? —I think not. 3837. This Medical School has an endowment and proposes to pay its lecturers ? —Tes. 3838. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you consider that the Medical School is as strictly and as properly a department of the College as the different departments of professorial work are ? —lt is a part of the trust, and consequently I can conceive of no difference. 3839. Professor Droicn.] Do you know of any institution for University education in Europe in which the professors have no voice in the management ?—I know of none. I know that iv a large number the professors are the sole managers. In the School of Mines, for instance, the management is entirely conducted by the professors, and I believe that is the case in several Universities. 3840. The Chairman.] As Professor of Chemistry at the College are you supplied with apparatus and appliances sufficient for your work ? —We have a very fine set of scientific apparatus, which was chiefly provided by funds from the late Provincial Government. The only deficiency is in current expenses, and the purchasing of recent illustrations of scientific growth. Of the funds at our disposal 24— H. 1.

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I think at least £150 a year ought to be appropriated for the whole of the special scientific expenses of the chemical, physical, and metallurgical laboratories, and for purchasing new illustrations of scientific growth. 3841. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know what amount the Provincial Government expended upon the apparatus for the laboratory ?—I think that, for apparatus and fittings, the sum was a little less than ..2,000. 3842. Can you say how much of that went for apparatus ?—I cannot say definitely, but perhaps £1,500. 3843. The Chairman.] Are your classes as well attended as you would expect them to be in such a community as this ? —They are as well attended as I should expect them to be, considering the fact that no elementary science is taught in the public schools. They are nothing like so well attended as they should be for the number of inhabitants. 3844. What means would you be disposed to adopt to create more interest in the study of physical and natural science ? —I do not know of anything more likely to elicit an interest than tbe establishment of a science and art scheme, such as I was speaking about just now ; and also the keeping firmly to the new regulations that have been adopted with respect to the introduction of science into the primary schools. 3845. Professor Shand.] If these regulations were carried out, would they not be sufficient without anything supplementary ?—No, I think not. It would only be useful for the very young children at school, because the older children, who are still in the schools, will pass out without acquiring much scientific knowledge, and all those who have already left the schools will, of course, have none. In addition to that, these science and art classes introduce a very much wider scientific study than could possibly be enforced in an elementary school. Therefore the two things are really supplementary to one another. 3846. Have you any female students attending your classes ?—Yes. 3847. How many?— Three, at present. 3848. Professor Sale.] Do you think that such scientific instruction as can be given in primary schools is likely to be of any real value to students afterwards coming up to a college for instruction ? —I think it might be of very considerable real value. I think that the mere learning by rote from textbooks is positively injurious, as I believe all " cram " learning to be ; but if we can get the teachers, and especially the examiners, to ask such questions as will elicit intelligence, a habit of intelligent study, rather than cramming, will grow up in the schools, which will be of great value in future work for the University. 3849. Do you think it is possible, in the present circumstances of the colony, to get teachers in the primary schools who are able to give any instruction at all, except such as is given by merely using text-books r —Only in a few cases at present; but there would be no difficulty in teaching the teachers. 3850. Then do you think that the introduction of science into the schools is premature until such a class of teachers has been trained ?—Not at all, if the examination questions are such that they can only be answered by intelligent teaching. 3851. "What particular branches of scientific instruction do you think should be introduced into the primary schools ? —I think that first a slight outline of chemistry and physics —chiefly physics, with a little chemistry, a small amount of physiology, and a slight idea of classification —should be introduced into the schools. I think that the idea of thoroughness, as it is sometimes called, with respect to science is a mistake. Thoroughness frequently means learning text-books by rote. I believe that all scientific ideas must be a matter of growth, and that science cannot be thoroughly acquired at once, but has to be gradually appreciated and picked up ; aud I believe that the earlier this is commenced the better it is for a clear appreciation of science. 3852. Professor Cook.] Have you had much acquaintance with the class of people who are engaged in teaching in primary schools in this colony ? —I have had a considerable acquaintance with them. 3853. Have you ever examined them ? —Tes, a few. 3854. Do you think they are of a class who are likely to give this intelligent teaching of which you speak ? —There are some who would certainly do so —some four or five among the few I have examined would. I have only examiued a small number. 3854 a. Have you found the teachers who have attended your classes to be very intelligent ?— As a rule I have not discovered very great intelligence among the primary-school teachers who have attended my classes. There are, however, some striking exceptions. 3855. Would you think it advisable that before scientific instruction were introduced into any primary school the teacher should be required to pass some examination which would prove his capacity tor teaching the subject intelligently? —I think such an examination would be very desirable. 3856. And by whom should it be conducted ? —I think by the College professors, they being the only specialists that I am aware of in the colony. I think, however, that a certificate of a teacher having already passed an intelligent examination should serve. 3857. The Chairman.] What classes, and how many, do you instruct in Canterbury College?— Elementary chemistry, advanced chemistry, honours chemistry, and practical laboratory work iv chemistry. Then in physics, at the present time I have junior electricity, senior heat, senior electricity, and honours physics, and practical work in physics. 3858. Are these all separate classes ? —They are all separate classes. 3859. Professor Sale.] At what age do you consider that a student in a primary school should commence scientific study ? —I think that, in the form of object-lessons, scientific instruction might be commenced at about eleven years of age, or even earlier. I have had several students in England who really knew science fairly and intelligently at eleven years of age. 3860. The Chairman.] Do you think the University of New Zealand, as it now exists, has assumed the form best suited to the circumstances of the colony ? —I am certainly of opinion that the establishment of a University as an examining body granting degrees was an entire mistake. Everythingithat

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it could do would have been far better done by extending the scope of the London University to NewZealand. The degree would then have had an undoubted value. The examinations would have been of a definite standard, instead of exhibiting the extreme variation that has characterized the papers of the New Zealand University. The examiners would have been without a suspicion of bias, which is far from being the case at present. They would have been men who understood their subject, and the papers would have commanded respect, instead of raising a smile on the part of the students at the incapacity exhibited. So strongly have I felt the importance of this question that for years I have been of opinion that it would be to the interest of the Canterbury and Otago Colleges to sacrifice the pecuniary advantages of the New Zealand University, and directly affiliate ourselves to the London University. lam of opinion that what was wanted was a central teaching and examining body. The means at the disposal of the country, and the number of its inhabitants, combined with the respect the undoubted position of such an institution would command, all point to this conclusion. On the other hand, there can be no doubt that a number of colleges react most favourably on one another, as is evinced by the wonderful vitality of the small German Universities. But, for some years at least, Sydney, Adelaide, and Melbourne would serve this purpose. Ultimately, of course, several colleges would be required in forming one University. As the matter now stands, from conversations I have had with persons from all parts of New Zealand, I think that the best solution of the difficulty is the establishment of two colleges in the North Island —these two colleges and the two southern colleges to form the University. I think that all the papers should be set by at least two examiners to each paper, either professors from different colleges, or, in the event of one central college being the final form decided on, then one professor and an outsider. By taking the examiners in pairs, and by the whole of the examiners consulting together, an efficient machinery would be provided, possessing the very great merit that the student would know that his teacher's specialities would have a fair share of notice in the examination papers. I have found it absolutely impossible to interest students in original work, even in continuing researches already prolific in results, the students feeling that it is impossible that such work can have any value in the papers of an alien examiner. Thus the most important —the very highest—feature of University work (both as regards the student's education and the utility of the college) is ignored. lam of opinion that the present mode of granting degrees tells most unfavourably upon the study of science. The University grants a degree in which it is not necessary that the student should have the most elementary knowledge of science. To the New Zealand M.A. the world may be flat or a cube, or he may not even have the least idea of the significance of the words " matter " and " energy " ; whilst on the other hand an unfortunate whose rote memory is poor, but who may have the reasoning powers of a Newton, could not take any kind of degree, as he must pass a high examination in Latin and mathematics (chiefly analytical or memory work) before he can graduate. With regard to the affiliation of the schools, the chief result has been that these institutions have attempted to do University work, have consequently neglected real school work, and have accordingly failed in both. That they have so failed in the school work is shown by the fact that formerly a large number of junior scholarships were awarded, whereas, for three years past, schoolboys have been so badly prepared, and so few have made even the minimum of marks, that not more than half the scholarships available have been awarded. That they have not succeeded in college work, the large number of junior scholars who have never gone further in their University work is a sufficient demonstration. But they have succeeded in one thing, which, as the University has made colleges and schools rivals, must be so far satisfactory to the schools. They have doubtless prevented many students joining the college. It is a fact that only one student from Christ's College has passed the matriculation examination of Canterbury College. This no doubt partly depends upon the fact that our matriculation is not held up as a goal to Christ's College boys, and partly that, both being called colleges, parents are quite unaware that there is any essential difference in the two institutions. It thus appears that the action of the University in affiliating these schools has been wholly mischievous. 38G1. Knowing, as you no doubt do, what our functions are, and the scope of our Commission, is there any suggestion you would like to make bearing upon any of the objects of our inquiry ?—I think that the age at which students enter the University as undergraduates might advisedly be raised to sixteen, and also that the work for the degree should be much more specialized than it is at present — in fact, that all compulsory work should be done with at the matriculation examination, for which the minimum age should be fixed at sixteen ; it would then be, practically, seventeen or eighteen, as a rule, before the students would come to college. I am decidedly of opinion that anything like a mature student having to pass compulsory examinations, of rather a high class, in departments of learning for which he is not fitted, acts injuriously upon the training generally and upon the success of the colleges. That is the most important point on which I should like to express myself. 3562. Professor Drown.] Have you any suggestion to make about science degrees? "Would not your purpose be better served by having a special science degree ? —I think that should be the basis on which the degrees should be founded ; but that the degrees should have a name corresponding with the work in which the studenc had passed. 3863. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you formed any opinion as to the age at which junior scholarships should be granted ? —I think that no junior scholarships should be granted to students under sixteen. 3864. Would you be satisfied with sixteen as the minimum ? —I think sixteen is a good minimum, but generally they would be over that age. But there are cases where sixteen would be sufficient, and where, in fact, the student would be wasting his time by staying any longer in the school. 3865. Professor Drown.] Do you think it is possible, in a college like Canterbury College, to do without evening lectures ? —I think, if we were to do without evening lectures, it would be exceedingly foolish to do other than have one college for the whole of New Zealand. To have one college for the whole of New Zealand would appear to me to be sufficient to compensate for the evening classes; but, if there are to be several local colleges, it appears to me that the chief reason for their existence lies in the evening classes. 3866. That is, having students at the college who cannot give the whole of their time to the work ? —Tes.

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3867. That is the chief reason of the existence of local colleges ?—Yes. 3868. As against a central University ? —Tes ; in my opinion the attendance of such students as are not wholly engaged in college work is almost tbe only reason, in the present circumstances of the colony, why there should be several colleges, as a really good system of scholarships would enable students of higb-class intelligence but of slender means to attend the central college ; whilst, without the evening classes, a poor student who had not a scholarship would not be able to attend day lectures, even were there several colleges. Mr. J. V. Colboene-Veel, M.A.., was sworn and examined. 3869. The Chairman.] Tou are Secretary to the Board of Education for the North Canterbury District ?—I am. 3870. What University experience have you had ? —I am a graduate of the Oxford University. 3871. Are you acquainted with the Constitution of the University of New Zealand?—l am generally acquainted with it, but have no official knowledge of any kind on the subject. 3872. But you are generally acquainted with its constitution and working? —Tes, I am generally acquainted with it. 3873. Do you think that on the whole the University has assumed the form which is most suited to New Zealand ?—I think that the principle of the University is that which is most suited to New Zealand. 3874. Tou mean, I suppose, the fact that it is an examining and not a teaching body ? —Tes ; and that the teaching is intrusted to colleges established in the principal parts of the colony, instead of an attempt being made to establish a University in one place, as at Oxford and Cambridge. 3875. Have you thought of any arrangement which would improve the constitution of the University?—l think that the fault, so far, has been that the idea, or what I understood to be the idea, on which the University was founded under the existing Act has not been rightly acted upon. I mean that, instead of endeavouring to establish colleges in the large towns, the University authorities took up with such educational means as existed at the time. That seems to me to be the great point in which the machine has, so far, almost, you may say, broken down. 3876. Professor Sale.] Tou allude to the affiliation of schools ?—Exactly. 3877. Tou mean that the University has affiliated institutions that ought not to have been affiliated?—lnstitutions that cannot do University work. 3878. And would you propose to remedy this by disaffiliating those institutions ? —I think that would be a most desirable step. That alono would not be sufficient, because I should, of course, wish to gee some institutions established which would carry out what I consider to be the original intention. 3879. At the main centres, where these schools are at present ?—Tes. 3880.- Would you indicate the centres at which you think it desirable that colleges should be established ? —-At present probably four would be sufficient—Auckland, Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin. Of course, if required, the system might be enlarged as population increased. 3881. The Chairman.] Do you think it would be advantageous for theso colleges to have a more intimate connection with the University than exists now in the case of the affiliated institutions?— Tes; I think the University should be a combination of the various colleges. 3882. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you any model in your mind in saying that ?—No, I cannot say that I have. 3883. Have you considered the constitution of the Queen's University and the Queen's Colleges in Ireland?— That was, perhaps, in my mind; but I am not sufficiently acquainted with those institutions, and I cannot say that they should be taken as a model. 3884. Professor Cook.] In a general way you think that the University of New Zealand should resemble the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge, excepting that its colleges should not be collected at one centre ? —Tes. 3885. The Chairman.] Do you approve of the present mode of appointing the members of the Senate of the University of New Zealand ? —Not at all. 3856. How do you think the appointments should be made? —1 have never considered or thought out any scheme for the constitution of the University, and am scarcely prepared, off-hand, to answer in detail. I think the governing body of the University might be constituted from the governors and professorial staffs of such colleges as I desire to see established. 3887. Tou have a general acquaintance, I think, with the standard of attainments required for the B.A. degree of the University ? —Tes. 3888. Do you think that standard is a suitable one for New Zealand?—Tes ; I should say it was. 3859. Do you approve of tho practice of appointing examiners from without the colony?—No; it does not seem to have turned out well, and, for my own part, I do not see why the professors of the Australian Universities should be in any way superior to those in this colony. 3890. Professor Cook.] Supposing four colleges were established, such as indicated just now, do you think that a Board composed of the professors of those colleges would bo a suitable Examining Board for the University ? —I do not see why it should not. 3891. The Chairman.] Would there not be some difficulty in having a professor examining his own pupils along with students from other institutions ? —Of course that is the difficulty in the case. Ido not think it is a genuine difficulty. It is a difficulty which has to be encountered in every University. 3892. Professor Sale.] But is not that difficulty reduced to a minimum in large Universities like Oxford and Cambridge, where the examiners can be chosen irom such a large number of teachers ? —Tes, no doubt; what difficulty there is is more obvious in a smaller University, like that of New Zealand. 3893. Is it not the case that teachers who take private pupils, aud who are appointed examiners in Oxford and Cambridge, are in the habit of ceasing the work of teaching before undertaking to

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examine ?—Private coaches in Oxford are not official teachers. I do not know whether there is any regulation on the subject, because such private tuition is not recognized. I imagine it would be rather a question for a man's own personal feeling of honour. 3891. A. matter of etiquette ? —Probably so. Ido not know if there is any regulation. 3895. Does not a professor in an affiliated institution in New Zealand really combine in his person the offices of lecturer and private teacher, such as they exist in Oxford aud Cambridge ? —He may do so, but he does not and professor. 3896. Is it not unavoidable that in this country a professor should be brought into more intimate relations with his pupils than is likely to be the case with a lecturer in Oxford or Cambridge ? —He possibly may be; Ido not think necessarily so. I think that in Oxford or Cambridge the teacher, in many cases, is in as intimate relations with the men of his college, or some of them, as any professor is likely to be in New Zealand with his pupils. 3897. Professor Cook.] Are you aware whether there is any regulation which renders it incumbent on a lecturer at Oxford or Cambridge to retire from teaching for the time being in the event of his being appointed an examiner ?-r-I am not aware of any regulation. 3898. Tou said just now that no doubt the evil to which Professor Sale alluded, of a man having to examine his own pupils along with others, was reduced to a minimum'at Oxford and Cambridge. Is not the reduction of the evil effected by having several examiners on the same subject ?—No doubt. 3899. It is not merely from tho fact that there are a large number of students examined, but principally from the fact that there are several examiners ? —Tes. 3900. Professor Sale.] Tou say " principally " ?—Tes. 3901. Professor Cook.] Then, in the event of four colleges being established here, so that we might expect each subject to be represented by four different men, do you think this evil would be reduced to a minimum in New Zealand ? —I think it probably would. Ido not really think the evil exists myself. It is not so much the fact that any unfairness would occur in the examination as the possibility that unfairness might be suspected: that is the evil. 3902. With several examiners you would nearly get rid of that ?—I think you would. 3903. Professor Sale.] Apart from any possibility of unfairness in an examination, do you not think that a scrupulous and conscientious teacher would feel uncomfortable in having to examine his own pupils in connectiou with others —that he would not feel perfectly free iv the conduct of the examination ? —I think it is conceivable ;I do not think I should feel so fmyself. Ido not see any necessity for such a feeling. 390-1. Do you not think it possible that an over-scrupulous teacher might actually do an injustice to his own pupils ?—lf there were several examiners, that too would be corrected in the same way as any inclination to show partiality to his pupils. 3905. Do you not think that a teacher, in preparing an examination paper, might be tempted to avoid setting questions in which he knew his own pupils would be likely to do themselves credit ?—■ There is a certain amount of difficulty arising from all these considerations, but I think the difficulty in each case is of precisely the same character, and may be obviated in the same way. The fact of each paper passing through the hands of several examiners will counteract any tendency, should such exist, on the part of any one examiner to show favour to particular students. 390 G. The Chairman.] Have you seen the examination papers that have been set by the University examiners for scholarships and for degrees ?—I have not seen the last; I have seen some of tho earlier ones. 3907. Do you consider those papers well suited for the purpose? I mean with regard to the quality of the papers —were they such papers as were well suited for University examinations ? —That maybe considered in some sense a matter of opinion, and it may not be considered that I am competent to pass an opinion with respect to University examinations. I have certainly seen papers which did not appear to me to be at all satisfactory. 3908. Professor Sale.] Are you referring to the degree examinations, or to the examinations for scholarships ?—I can hardly say definitely, without having some of the papers before me. What was in my mind were some of the papers that came from Melbourne. 3909. Professor Droion.] What was the special objection which you had to those papers ?—They gave me the impression of being rather book questions than questions set from the examiners' knowledge of the subject. 3910. Calculated to develop one faculty more than another?—A paper of that character tends to develop memory instead of intelligence. 3911. Professor Sale.] Do you see any serious objection to the examination of the University of New Zealand being conducted by examiners in En<*land through the post office ? —lf I went outside of the colony at all I should go to England ;I am quite clear upon that point. But I certainly should not regard the plan as anything more than a temporary arrangement —a device to get over a temporary difficulty. The complete separation of the examining from the rest of the work is most unsatisfactory to my mind. 3912. If the examination work were conducted entirely by professors in New Zealand, would there not be some danger of tho studies of the University losing all chance of improvement, according to the new methods which might be introduced in England ? —There might be such a danger as that, to some extent. 3913. Would you be in favour of using the funds of the University in bringing out each year one or two examiners to conduct, or assist in conducting, examinations in the colony? —I do not know whether any inquiry has been made into the practicability of that; if it could be managed, I should think it would be infinitely preferable to the plan of conducting examinations through the post office. 3914. Professor Cook.] Would not the danger of falling into a rut be much reduced if there were several colleges of the University, so that there would be several examiners in each subject ? —Tes. 3915. Professor Drown.] And would there not be as great a likelihood of a constant supply of new blood in the professoriat and examiners as in a Home college of the same sort ?—Well, not entirely so :

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the Home college would naturally, by its position, be so very much under the influence of all the new thought of the day. 391 G. I allude to the supply of new examiners. If there were four colleges would there not be as constant a stream of new blood as there would be in four colleges of the same sort at Home ?—Yes, if you mean, by new blood, change in the personnel. 3917. Professor Sale.] At what minimum age do you think students should be admitted to matriculation ?—I think the present age of fifteen is too young, and should be more inclined to fix the minimum at seventeen. 3918. Do you think that the present requirements for the pass B.A. degree are more than should be expected from an ordinary student coming up for his degree at the age, say, of nineteen or twenty ? —Tes. 3919. When you stated your opinion that the present standard was a suitable one, you did not contemplate candidates coming up for examination at so early au age as nineteen or twenty ?—No, certainly not. 3920. Do you think it is a wise arrangement that Latin and mathematics should be made compulsory subjects of examination for the B.A. degree ?—I am not sure that I should be opposed to it. I think there must be some degree of fixity in University examinations, and that too great a range of subjects, and too great freedom of choice on the part of undergraduates, causes a risk of creating a degree of unsettlement and fluctuation which would be unsatisfactory. 3921. Can you suggest any subjects which would be more suitable as compulsory subjects than Latin and mathematics ? —No, I think not. I think Latin a most suitable subject, and have a great opinion of its value. 3922. And you would say the same of mathematics ?—Tes. 3923. Then really your opinion is in favour of the arrangement ? —Tes. 3924. The Chairman.] I believe a scheme of scholarships has been established by the Board of Education : would you tell the Commission the general plan of the scheme ?—There are ten scholarships given every year, tenable for two years. 3925. Are they open scholarships ? —Entirely so. 39216. Tou mean that any pupil may become a candidate ? —Any one within the prescribed age. 3927. What is tho value "of each scholarship ?—£4o a year. The ages are eleven, twelve, thirteen, and fourteen, going upwards by steps of one year. 3928. How do you apportion the scholarships between the candidates of different ages ?—The classes are distinguished by the letters a, b, c, d, — a including candidates under eleven, . those under twelve, and so on. Two scholarships are offered for competition in each class ; the other two are kept in reserve, to be awarded, on the report of the examiners, to any candidates either in a, b, or c who distinguish themselves. 3929. I suppose the Board cannot afford, with the funds at present at their disposal, to institute more than twenty scholarships ?—lt is only by a fortunate accident that the Board is able to do anything like so much. 3930. Do you think it desirable that the funds of the Board should be increased, so as to enable it to establish more scholarships ? —Very desirable. 3931. What conditions do you impose on the holders of scholarships? —They have to attend at some school approved of by the Board, and the quarterly payments are conditional on the production of certificates of good conduct and attention to study 3932. What schools have been approved of by the Board ? Did they in any case approve of a primary school? —Tes, in several cases. 3933. And what secondary schools have been approved of? —Christ's College Grammar School and the Girls' High School. They have had the majority of the scholars. 3934. I think it is a condition that any school at which these scholarships are held must be open to inspection. Has the Board seen that that condition has been complied with ? —-Tes. 3935. Have both Christ's College and the Girls' High School been inspected in accordance with that condition? —The Girls' High School has been inspected, I know. lam not certain about the facts in regard to the Christ's College Grammar School, but I believe the Inspector-General visited the school, and there was some difficulty in the matter, which is in process of arrangement. I must refer you, however, to the Inspector-General for positive information on the subject. 3936. Bey. W. J. Habeas,] When you said you thought it would be very desirable to place larger funds at the disposal of the Board of Education for scholarships, in what direction did you propose that the scheme of scholarships should be extended? —by increasing the number of scholarships, or by increasing the value of each, or of any? —I should not increase the value ; I think they are valuable enough. 3937. Then the answer would be, by increasing the number ?—Tes. 3938. Do you think it would be at all advisable to grant any scholarships of less amount than £40 • —to increase the number of scholarships by dividing the amounts ?—No ; I would rather maintain the value. 3939. I believe you have had large experience of scholarship examinations ?—Tes ; I think that, with one exception, I have taken part in every examination since they were instituted. 3940. And what opinion have you formed of the educational value of the scheme of scholarships ? —I think it is of very considerable value. There has been arise in the standard of attainments, and a satisfactory increase in the number of competitors, and in the number of schools which send up competitors. 3941. What effect do you think the scholarship scheme has had upon the schools from which the scholars come ? —I think the effect has been good. There has been a tendency, in some instances, to pick out promising children and train them up for scholarships, giving them a good deal of extra work at an early age. Of course there are elements of evil about that, but, nevertheless, I think that, on the whole, the effect of the scholarships on the schools has been good. I think they have assisted to raise the tone of the schools.

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3942. Professor Brown.] Do you think that this scholarship system has had a good effect on tho secondary schools, such as Christ's College Grammar School ? —I was thinking entirely of primary schools when I spoke just now. I really do not know how the scheme may have affected Christ's College Grammar School. 3943. Do you know if those who have taken provincial scholarships have gone on to University work afterwards ? —Oh, yes. 3944. And taken junior scholarships in the University ?—Yes ; in many instances. I think most of the scholarship-holders have done well afterwards. 3945. The Chairman.] Do you think it would be desirable to have a general system of inspection applied to all the secondary schools throughout the colony ? —Certainly. 3946. Under what authority would you have that inspection carried out ? —Under the authority of the University. 3947. Not of the Government ?—No. 3948. Tou would, I suppose, propose that the Senate of the University should appoint examiners and inspectors for the colony ? —Tes. 3950. And how would you propose that the expense should be defrayed?—Of course I am supposing, to begin with, a University constituted in such a manner as has been mentioned before, and probably some legislation might be necessary before the alterations could be carried into effect. As to the question of expense, I think it would be well if it were understood that the supervision of secondary education was one of the functions of the University. The University should be endowed with sufficient funds to enable it to perform its functions. 3951. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you be disposed to attach any value to the inspection of secondary schools as distinct from the examination of them ? —I am not quite sure whether you could inspect the secondary schools quite to the same extent as you could the primary schools; but certainly inspection and examination are requisite for a sufficient knowledge of what a school is doing. 3952. Perhaps you would define what you mean by inspection. Inspection as distinct from examination ? —By examination, I am thinking of the process of ascertaining the results of the work upon the individual scholars, by means of questions, papers, and so ferth; but, by inspection, it is rather the teachers who are being considered. The inspector looks to the system on which the school is carried on, the methods of the teachers, the style of working, and so forth. 3953. Professor Sale.] Would it be necessary in order to inspect, iv the sense in which you use the term, that the inspector should be present while the teacher is going on with his work ?—Tes. 3954. And do you think it is desirable that such an inspection should take place at intervals in all secondary schools ? —I am not quite sure that such an inspection would be practicable in the case of secondary schools. I think tho schools would object to it. If it were practicable, I should say it would be desirable. 3955. Would any difficulty arise in the unwillingness of teachers to submit to inspection?—Tes ; that is where the difficulty would arise. 395 G. Are you aware whether any secondary schools in England are liable to such in»pection ?— I do not know what has been done in England lately in that way. 3957. Professor Cook.] Do you think it would have to be feared that such a system of inspection would tend to destroy the individuality of the school, and reduce all schools to the same pattern ?— There might be a tendency in that direction, but I do not think it would operate very largely. 3958. From your experience, do you think the inspection of primary schools has that effect ?—I think that if the master is a capable man —in fact, is something of a born teacher—he will carry on his school well, and produce most satisfactory results, and the inspection will not bring him down to a dull uniformity. 3959. As a matter of fact, do you think any evil results of that kind have been produced in any primary schools in this province with which you are acquainted ?—-There is, as I said before, rather a tendency in that direction. It operates much more strongly in the case of primary schools than I think it would in the case of secondary schools. 39G0. Then you think that inspection of secondary schools is less open to objection than inspection of primary schools, on the ground to which lam alluding ? —I think it probably would be. 3961. Professor Brown.] Do you think it would be advisable for the Government to establish scholarships for teachers which might enable them to attend University institutions and get University education? —Tes ; such scholarships would be extremely useful. 3962. Something like the junior scholarships, but specially set apart for teachers ? —Tes. 3963. Professor Cook.] What would be a suitable value for these scholarships in the event of their being established? —I cau hardly say, off-hand. They would have to be of some substantial value, because the holders would require to come and live at Christchurch for some time. 3964. About the value of the junior scholarships (£45) ? —I should say not less than £50; perhaps even more than that. 3965. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it would be advisable to admit ad eundem graduates to the Convocation of the University, so that Convocation might, as soon as possible, come into active operation ? —Tes ; I think it would be. 3966. Do you think that the objections which have been urged against that are of such a kind that they ought to prevail ? —I have no exact knowledge of what the objections are. 3967. Do you think, for example, that there is any danger of the undergraduates who have passed the examination here being swamped, and their influence being neutralized, by the presence of a large number of ad eundem graduates having the same privileges with them in the Convocation ? —No; I should hardly think so. There would be a greater amount of enthusiasm probably among the New Zealand graduates, and they would work more together. But I think there would be among a number of the ad eundem graduates some knowledge of University affairs, and a strong sympathy with the junior graduates in their desire generally to help the thing along. I have not considered the matter yery much.

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3968. Professor Shand.] Do you think there would be no danger of the administration of the University falling into the hands of a single class or profession —such as the clergy—many of whom no doubt would exercise their privilege if the ad eundem graduates were admitted to the Convocation ? —I am scarcely prepared to answer that question ; it involves a calculation of how many clergymen there are who are graduates, and who would go to Convocation. There might possibly be some risk, but I have not fully considered the point. 3969. Bey. W. J. HabensJ] Do you not think, from your knowledge of the people of Canterbury, that there is a probability that the medical profession would, at all events, have as much influence as the clergy, and that there are many gentlemen in private stations, and engaged in pastoral and other pursuits, whose membership of the University would go a long way to neutralize any class tendency ? —Tes, I am certainly of that opinion. 3970. Professor Drown.] Do you know of any objections to evening lectures in Canterbury College ? —I know* that objections have been taken. 3971. Do you think there is anything in those objections ? —I do not think there is much in the objections. 3972. Do you think that the regular students—that is to say, those who have the time in their own hands—suffer by those evening lectures ? —I do not see how they can suffer by them. 3973. Do you know any of the grounds of the objections which have been raised ? —One of the members of the Board of Governors of Canterbury College has taken a prominent part in opposing the evening lectures, and one reason on which he bases his opposition is that it is objectionable that female students should have to come out at night without proper escort. 3974. Has anything ever occurred wdiich would lead you to think that a real objection ? —I do not consider there is any real objection on that ground. 3975. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Would the fact of the lectures being held in the evening not interfere with the attendance of persons living at a distance who might wish to take advantage of them? —Tes, of course it might. But I think all these things require not so much to be governed by some fixed regulation, as that the programme should be arranged according to what suits the students. If there are a large number of students who cau attend an evening lecture, why not have an evening lecture to accommodate them ? Why make them come in the morning if it is unsuitable for them ? If, on the other hand, there are a number of students who live at a distance, and w*ant to attend a particular lecture, then put that lecture down according as the trains will allow them to come in and attend it. Objections of that kind are mere paper objections, and can be got over very easily.

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Tuesday, 15th Apeil, 1879. Present: Mr. G-. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Eev. W". E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Shand, Bey. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Sale. Mr. J. TV. Hamilton sworn and examined. 3976. The Chairman,] Tou are a member of the Board of Governors of Canterbury College?— Tes. 3977. How long have you occupied that position?— Since June, 1875. I was a member of the Collegiate Union which gave birth to the College, but I have not been a member of the Board from the foundation of the College. I did not follow on from one institution to the other, but was elected after an interval of about a year. 3978. In your opinion does Canterbury College give that satisfaction to the public generally which was expected when it was established ? —I am not in a position to say anything about the opinion of tho public as to the College. 3979. Has it given to you individually the satisfaction that you anticipated when the College was founded?—No, not altogether. 3980. "Would you explain how it has fallen short of what was expected?—lt has disappointed me personally in regard to the hours over which its work is extended—during the day and night. 3981. Do I understand that you disapprove of the time-table? —Tes; I think the time-table should be similar to those of other collegiate institutions, and not spread over the whole day and far into the night. It should be adapted to the attendance of women ; and I consider night hours, or any hour after dusk, quite unsuitable for any woman in this country. There is no protection afforded by the police at this end of the town, and females walking out at night alone are liable to insult. Indecent exposure of the person has not been uncommon here of late, and there have been several convictions for that offence, which has in most cases been committed during or after the hours of twilight. 3982. Do you think the late hours are inconvenient for the boys attending the College?—l do not think the hours inconvenient, but I hold very strong opinions about the loss of health, and think that lads in this country cannot work at hours spread all over the day. I should have been very glad to send two of my sons to Canterbury College if I had considered the hours suitable in regard to health.* 3953. Have you, as a parent, made any report to the Board of Governors with regard to the inconvenience of the hours fixed for attending lectures ? —I have done so as a member of the Board by resolutions offered at one of its meetings. I stated that it affected me personally with regard to my two sons, who were then able to leave the Grammar School. * I estimate roughly the outlay I shall be put to by bring unable to avail myself of Canterbury College for my two sons, thus : —Passages to and from England, each : Home, £52 10s ; out, £52 10s. : total, £105. Both boys, £210. Outfit both ways, each : Home, £-10; out, £_0 : total, £80. Both boys, £100. Three years in Europe, say, at £150 per annum each : For both, £300 per annum, £900. Total cost at lowest for two adults, £1,270.—J.W.H.

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3984. What decision did the Board come to upon that representation ?—There was a Committee appointed, and ultimately it was agreed, on their recommendation, to leave the matter over until this Commission had reported. 3985. Professor Sale.] Tou objected to the hours in the case of male students, chiefly on the ground of health ? —Tes. 3980. And do you assume that if students were not attending lectures in the evening they would not be doing work equally heavy?—l do not think they ought to be. If they worked in the morning and also in the evening, I should expect that they would have proper recreation and healthy exercise in the middle of the day or afternoon. But if they are to have the whole day broken up so that it is impossible to get anything like a full amount of recreation and exercise, I should say the hours are not suitable with reference to the health of the students. 3987. I was referring chiefly to evening work —w*ork betwceii the hours of 7 and 10?— Personally, I have a very great dislike to night-work, and my objection is the result both of reading and of experience in my own family ; and I think the young people in this country cannot stand the work that the English-born can. 3988. Tou think, then, that no work should be done between the hours of 7 and 10, either at home or in the lecture-room ?—I would not have any work for the young people who would attend the College—that is to say, those under twenty—after 9 o'clock at night. I think that is the very latest hour at which they ought to excite the brain unnaturally before sleep. 3989. Does the present arrangement of the time-table shut out the students from proper hours of recreation ? —lt seems to me to do so; because students do not work here under the same circumstances as they do at Oxford or Cambridge. They have no common hall in which to dine; they live at their own homes, which maybe very distant; and the time allotted for dining—-between 12 and 3 o'clock —would be taken up in going and coming between their homes and the College, so that there would be no time left for recreation. 3990. At what hours then would you wish the classes to be held?— Considering the circumstances of this place, I think all lecture work should be over by 4 o'clock at the latest, so as to enable people from the country, if they wished to attend special lectures, to take advantage of the trains, and return to their homes. 3991. Are you aware whether there are many students w*ho come from a considerable distance ?— I thiuk not. 3992. Do you think such an arrangement as you propose would encourage people to come from a distance ? —I think it would, in course of time, for pupils come daily by rail from Amberley, thirty-four miles, to the Girls' High School. These institutions are of slow growth, and I am an advocate for encouraging special students and special lectures, and not simply to consider the wants of matriculated students alone. 3993. Tou are aware that some of the students attending lectures in Canterbury College are schoolmasters ? —I am quite aware of that. 3994. Is it desirable, do you think, that provision should be made for enabling them to attend classes ?■ —I think it is desirable ; but not at the sacrifice of the real student who devotes his whole time to study. I would make his case the first consideration in arranging the time-table, and I would provide for people engaged in active daily pursuits separately, as a supplementary matter entirely. 3995. Professor Brown.] And you think the professors might work all day, and that the students might have all the forenoon and evening to themselves ? Do you think the professors should have double work —work iv the evening for the schoolmasters, and work during the day for the regular students ? —I do not think the professors should be overworked, as I think they are now ; I would have a staff large enough, if the funds would admit of it. 3996. Do you think that the student that has all the time on his own hands should be consulted first ? —Tes: that is to say, I would first consider the young man who leaves school, and is going to get a college education. Those who engage in daily occupations, and have not completed their education, I would take last. 3997. Are there not arrangements for those students at the present time ? Are there not sufficient lectures during the day to get them through their degree ?—I cannot speak confidently upon that point. But I would take such a class as English literature : I think that is a lecture which, if one or two set the example, young women would probably be inclined to attend in large numbers ; but I would not allow a daughter of mine to come here, in this unprotected town, from 7 to 8 o'clock at night, without an escort. If you are going to make the College an institution for educating females, as well as males— which, perhaps, some would call the " fad " of the day —you must have hours of daylight for young women; if you do not, you will have abuses and scandals springing up. 3998. Do you know of anything that has arisen during the last four years to cause such an impression ?—No, I know of nothing which has arisen ; but I am one of those who believe in observing the social laws which regulate the conduct of females, and their hours of going abroad. 3999. And you think there are not sufficient lectures during the day for females ? Do they take advantage of the lectures during the day ?—That I could not say, without reference to the books. In winter-time it is dusk about a quarter to five, and I do not think that is a proper time for young girls to be going about in this town unattended. If it is not proper now, it will be still less so when the place is very populous. 4000. Is there any difference between going to the theatre or to church at night, and going to lectures? —I have never known of any respectable young girl going to the theatre alone at night. 4001. Is it not the custom ? —I would not encourage bad customs in my family, and Ido not think they ought to be encouraged anywhere else. It may be a custom, but I think the end will be that you will have a class of female larrikins in this country, just as you have male larrikins, if you do not observe the old social laws with respect to females. 4002. I think it is the custom at Home, too, is it not, for females to go to church in the evenings, to theatres, and to balls ? —I never knew young girls do so unattended. I make a great distinction, 25-H. 1.

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between young women above twenty-three or twenty-four years of age, who have learnt how to conduct themselves in life, and inexperienced girls of seventeen. 4003. And are there none of twenty-three or twenty-four attending these lectures ?—I think there are. 4001. Professor Cook.] Supposing tho le;tures did cease at 4 o'clock, how w*ou!d you then provide for tho recreation?—l only say I think no lectures should be carried ou after 4 o'clock ; I observe that in the Melbourne University the lectures cease at 1 o'clock. 4005. Professor Sale.] Tou are aware that there is extreme difficulty in arranging the time-table so as to make all the lectures accessible to students?—l am aware there is the greatest difficulty. I quite admit that the time-table has been greatly improved in the direction of my views, and I believe it is intended to improve it still more in the same direction. 4006. Professor Drown.] Tou stated that unmatriculated students should be encouraged. Do you think that cutting off all evening lectures would encourage many unmatriculated students to attend?—No ; I should perhaps make express provision in their case ; but, primarily, I would make the College an institution for tho education of young men going into education as a business unembarrassed by the necessity of earning their daily bread. I cannot believe that these schoolmasters can do themselves justice by working in their schools all day and then exercising the brain on college work at night. lam sure they will break down, either in their health or in the proper discharge of their school duties ; therefore 1 think it is a vicious thing to encourage them. 4007. Professor Cook] Tou say that the time-table has been improved in the last two ot* three years in the direction which you wish. Would you be content to see that improvement go on as the College gathers strength, or would you suddenly stop all the lectures which are held after 4 o'clock? —I would put a sudden stop to no institution which has got into a set routine ; there is always an evil iv that; you must work changes gradually, even though you may have got into a vicious line at first, 4008. Do I understand that you think it would be best to work the change gradually ? —Tes, gradually, but very much more rapidly thau is being done. I would not allow vested interests in the College late hours to grow up, as in the case of certificated schoolmasters. I would fix a year at which all this would stop, and at which I would start a time-table for College students only. If I had only two students in the College I would begin that way. I believe the Melbourne University adopted that plan, and it has been said to me by a Melbourne graduate that the first two students cost them £60,000: now they have got a fine University. 4009. Professor Drown.] Do you know that there were only forty-eight matriculated students in the Arts classes of the Melbourne University last year, and thirty-eight the year before ? By the Arts classes I mean those corresponding with the work done in Canterbury College. —I think that is as large a number of matriculated students as you might expect a colony of the size of Victoria to supply to a University, allowing for those who are wealthy enough to send their sons Home. 4010. If you were to devote the College solely to students who had all the time in their own hands, why should there be local colleges in New Zealand? "Would you object to a central University ? —Tes, because there is not wealth enough in the country among individuals to enable a sufficient number to take advantage of a central University, owing to the expense it would involve. 4011. Professor Cook.] Do you think it would be as expensive to send students from here to the North Island to attend a central University as it would be to send them Home?—No ; but then you have infinitely greater advantages at Home than you would have in the colony. 4012. Tou think that if there were a central University at some distance the question of expense would become so important that parents would rather pay the additional money and send their sons Home? —I think so decidedly; but you would prevent the poor people of different localities from taking advantage of special lectures, and that would, to my mind, be a very serious evil. 4013. Professor Drown.] But I thought you said you would devote the College to even tw*o students who had all the time in their own hands ?—I would make that my primary object; and I would supplement it, as was done, for instance, by the London University, by evening classes, if necessary, and if they w:ould attract artisans and people of small means. 4011. And how would you propose to provide these evening classes ? —lt is a pure .question of money. Tou can do anything with money. 4015. Seeing that we have not the money, do you not think that every class of the community has a certain claim to the advantages of the lectures of the College ?—Tes, provided they have had a reasonable amount of education, and do not look to the College to teach them the rudiments. 4016. Professor Sale.] Tou referred to the possibility of schoolmasters who have been at work in their schools all day injuring their health by attending classes at night: have you known any instances of that kind? —I have no positive knowledge; but lam under the impression that one student who was a schoolmaster suffered in health in consequence. I cannot believe that a schoolmaster, engaged at school-work all day, can attend lectures, and read hard for his degree, without doing both himself and his school injury. 4017. The Chairman.] Do you think that the preseut system of terms in the Canterbury College is satisfactory? —No. Of course I am speaking not from a professorial point of view, as to which I am ignorant, but from the point of view of a parent, aud considering the circumstances of the country, and the peculiar climate here. There is no tutorial system at work here, and there is hardly likely to be a paying demand for it for a long time to come. I think, therefore, that the students require the assistance of lectures spread over a greater portion of the year; that,having no tutors, they must look to the lectures for constant help in their reading. I do not see what there is in this country for students to do in the long vacations of many months. I think it is bad for young men to be idling about, as I should imagine they would be, with no satisfactory sources of amusement, nothing to take them into country life, and no possibility of going on long excursions, as men do from Oxford and Cambridge, to places where the expense is comparatively light. I should like to mention that I have just received a letter from my son, who, after leaving Christ's College Grammar School, matriculated jit the University of Berlin, and I have taken a note of what he told me about the session and length

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of vacation there. He says that the academical year is divided into two. It is supposed to begin on the 15th October, and terminates at the end of August. But lectures do not generally begin before the Ist November. They work on until Easter, when they have three or four weeks' vacation. They begin again on the 20th April, and go on to the end of .August. The schools in Germany discontinue work at the end of June, and the Universities at the end of August. I do not say that the Universities work hard all this time, for I have no time-table from which to judge ; but my son tells me that no day lecture begins at his University before 10 in the morning, or lasts after 2 in the afternoon, and that there are lectures in the evening from 5 until 8. Besides these, there are sixpenny lectures from 0 to 7 and 7 to 8, which I suppose are intended to provide for tho working classes, artisans, and people of small means. 4018. Professor Sale.] Do you know* at what age students usually enter the University?—l do not know, but, when I was at Brussels, the age for entrance to tho University there was about sixteen. But then the teaching abroad was such that I undertake to say they would work up a course of classics in five years, where the English mode of teaching would require seven. It is no wonder, therefore, that lads there should go to the University earlier than lads do from English schools. That is done, however, at the cost of getting up at half-past 5 in tho morning, and working until 9 o'clock at night, with only three hours for meals aud recreation, and only one half-holiday a week. Of course I consider that a great deal too much work, and more than our boys out here could do ; they have not the constitution, and there is not tho hardening winter here, to enable the boys to work as they do at Home. 4019. The Chairman.] What system of terms would you suggest for the academical year in Canterbury College, instead of the existing system ? —This climate is a peculiar one —the summer months are very relaxing—and I would extend the present two terms over quite another month. I would begin earlier in the year, and end later ; and I would have more frequent intervals of rest; instead of one vacation, I would have two. 4020. Professor Cook.] Are you satisfied with the amount of work in the year ? —Tes ; I think the amount of work is sufficient. The summer in Christchurch is not favourable for study. I defy any one to work hard in our wooden houses with the sun's heat beating down on his brain. 4021. Professor Sale.] Putting both periods together, what length of time would you like to see given to vacation ?—I would work the student hard in midwinter. I w*ould not give a midwinter vacation, because it is useless : winter is a period of slush here, and you cannot turn it to account out of doors. Therefore I would work the student then, and throw the vacation on to what at Home you call Michaelmas and Easter quarters. I would do away with tho midwinter vacation altogether, dividing it between spring and autumn vacations, which could be turned to account out of doors. 4022. What amount of vacation would you allow altogether ?—I should like to reduce the summer vacation to about fourteen weeks. 4023. And the Easter vacation ? —-I have not gone into that exactly. I would prefer the academical year to be divided into three terms, instead of two. 4024. Professor Drown.] If you changed tho midwinter vacation into a spring and an autumn vacation, would not that throw a portion of the work of the year into summer, which you say is an unfavourable time for study ?—I would not throw it far into the summer. I would throw the work iuto the summer by beginning about two weeks earlier, and carrying it on about two weeks later, than at present. 4025. And you think the winter is the most appropriate time for work ? —Tes, both oa account of the cold weather, and of the wet. 4026. Do you think, then, it would be better to concentrate the work in tho winter ? —Well, I think the young people of this country require more intervals of rest; that they —I go upon my ow*n observation, and, I thiuk, the experience of others —cannot stand the work out here. There are young men who, when young boys at school here, worked incessantly and gained scholarships, and are now, at twentytwo or twenty-three years of age, good for very little in point of health. I attribute the cause a good deal to the character of our buildings: you cannot work in tho wooden buildings here in the summer, they are so terribly hot. At Home you have an even temperature —you are warm all the winter, and cool in summer—and you can then stand a great deal of work. 4027. Supposing there was a reading-room in the College, which is a stone building, would that improve matters in any way ? —I do not think so ; young men must read at home a good deal; they do not live in College. That is the difficulty :if they lived in College the circumstances would be altered. 4028. Could they not do much better studying in the College library or reading-room ? —They might, but I do not think that would suit. It would not be convenient for those residing at home in town, or boarding with their friends ; it would not suit their meal hours. The impression, I think, here among those who are observant, is that young men do not fill out properly —that they have not the toughness of brain or body at twenty which young men in England have at eighteen, and therefore cannot stand the amount of continuous work ; they are more like the Maoris —they must w*ork in spurts. 4029. Would you raise the minimum ago for entrance to the University ? —I would certainly do so. From what I have seen in my own and other families there is another reason why I should think the age for entrance should bo older in this country, and that is that you do not begin teaching so early, and boys have not the same chance of going to school early, as in England, putting aside the wealthy, who can send their children anywhere. Now, I began school at about eight, and I was in Latin before I was ten ; but they do not begin Latin here at ten. I may say that my remarks and answers are directed to the whole question in the abstract. I admit that there are difficulties in the way of carrying out my views, and a very important one, in regard to the circumstances and climate of Canterbury, is the arrangement of the University examinations, aud the fact of the results being made known here so late that students have begun a fresh year's course. Until there is an alteration in this respect I do not see how we can alter our terms: in fact, we must go with the University, whether our climate and the constitutions of our young people fit in with it or not. 4030. The Chairman.] Do you think that the present mode of appointing the governing body of

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Canterbury College is a satisfactory mode ?—I have hardly considered that question. I think it is at present, as far as concerns Canterbury ; because the elections are in the hands of men who have for years taken an active interest in promoting higher education. But it is quite possible that the Board might deteriorate very much after a time, as the result of new elections. On tho other hand, Ido not know that it would be at all a satisfactory arrangement to let the undergraduates appoint the governing body solely ; I should doubt the wisdom of that in this country. If the undergraduates had such a power in England I think they would be guided in exercising it by the wisdom of their fathers ; but here I do not expect that, in many cases, the fathers would ba educated up to the point of the undergraduates by a very long way. 4031. 1 understand that there are two classes for whose education provision is made in Canterbury College—namely, the ordinary or regular University students and tho students who are otherwise engaged during the day. Do you think the College neglects the regular students in order to give facilities for educating the students who are engaged during the day ?—My impression is that the time-table is designed to suit both classes, aud not primarily, as it ought to suit, the mere student class. 4032. But is an undue preference given to the evening classes as against the morning classes, which, I presume, ought to be arranged for the regular University students?—l would hardly like to assert that off-hand. 4033. Do you think the time is fairly appointed between the two classes ? —No, I do not think it is. The time-table seems to me to work very much in favour of the class who are not purely students. I would like to be allowed to state that I do not speak from any practical experience ; the professors must know a great deal better than Ido about these matters; I speak more as an outsider and one taking a general view of things. 4034. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the voice of the professors is sufficiently heard in the management of the College at present? —-I think so; I think it is very fully heard.

April 15, 1879.

Wednesday, IGtii April, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eoeke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Brown, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand. The Eight. Eev. the Bishop of CiiRiSTcnuRCH was sworn and examined. 4035. The Chairman.] Tou are Warden of Christ's College?—l am Warden ex officio —as Bishop. 4036. How long have you held that office? —Since 1856. 4037. Was the College established before that date? —No. It was in existence in a certain sense —that is to say, the sub-warden had pupils under his charge —but that w-as quite in the early days, and the building used was not the present building. The sub-warden had two or three pupils, who were in the upper department, not in the Grammar School. He had also the charge of the Grammar School or lower department. 4038. Then, practically, the College was founded under your auspices ?—No ; the deed of foundation must have been dated before I became warden. I think the Provincial Ordinance establishing Christ's College was passed in 1855. 4039. Did the Provincial Council grant any endowments? —No; the endowments were entirely from the Canterbury Association. There was a certain quantity of land sold at £3 per acre, £1 per acre of which was to be set apart for ecclesiastical and educational purposes, and the land was conveyed to the Church Property Trustees on the condition that one-fifth of it should be given to the College for educational purposes. I can hardly tell you the amount that was handed over to the Church Property Trustees. It was handed over in land, and, as land was purchased, £1 per acre accrued to the Educational and Ecclesiastical Pund, and additions to the fund were made from time to time, fresh land being given. 4040. Professor Shand.] Was the site of the College buildings part of the donation from the Canterbury Association ? —The College received a grant of ten acres of the Government Domain from the Provincial Council in February, 1857, as a site for buildings and grounds. 4041. Professor Cook.] Had the College commenced operations before 1857 ? —The sub-warden was receiving pupils at that time —three pupils who were supposed to belong to the upper department, aud he was also in charge of the lower department. 4041 a. According to the school-list which is published, some pupils seem to have beeu admitted as far back as 1852? —Those are not the three pupils to whom I have referred. 4042. Professor Sale.] But they must have been boys at the Grammar School ? —No ; they were under the sub-warden's care ; they were not Grammar School boys. 4013. But I mean they were mere boys; they could not have been higher students?— Some of those under the sub-warden's charge were considered to be in the lower school, aud some in the upper. .4044. Professor Cook.] When did the Grammar School commence operations ? —When I came out here at the end of 1856 I found the Grammar School in existence. It was held then at St. Michael's Schoolroom, in what was then called tho Parsonage. 4045. Professor Shand.] Was the College then in operation too ?—The upper department was not in operation; those young men who had come out originally, and w*hom I have already referred to, had left. 4046. When did the upper department —the College proper —commence its operations ?—At a

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comparatively recent date, but I cannot tell you exactly when. There were always some young men receiving theological and classical instruction under the sub-warden ; but we never had a building that we could set apart for the purpose until late years. 4047. Professor Sale.] Canyousaywhether.it was since the establishment of the University of New Zealand? —Yes, it was since then. But there were always pupils, more or less, under the charge of the sub-warden, who was bound to give them instruction in divinity and also iv classics; but they were at his own house. 4018. Professor Shand.] Were the students in this upper department principally theological students ? —There were some scholarships set apart; but they were not intended exclusively for theological students. We are trying to follow out, as far as we cau, the objects of Christ's College, Canterbury, as set forth in a document issued in connection with the Canterbury Settlement in 1850, from •which the following are extracts: —- "It is proposed that this College shall consist of two departments—one for boys of all ages, from seven to seventeen; and one for young men above the age of seventeen." "11. Collegiate or Upper Department. —It is intended that — "1. This department shall comprise four divisions : (1.) Theological; (2.) Classical j (3.) Mathematical, and of civil engineering; (•_.) Agricultural. " 3. The theological division will be confined (with the exception of a few general lectures) to the candidates for holy orders, who will be expected to attain to the standard of theological knowledge required by the English Bishops before presenting themselves for examination for orders. They will also be expected to teach at least one hour in every day in the central primary schools of the city. "3. The classical division will, as a rule, include all the students. " 4. In the civil engineering division it is hoped to give an elementary course of instruction in physics and industrial mechanics, especially such as are applicable to the wants and capabilities of a new country. "5. In a country which derives its main wealth from agricultural produce, it will be obviously desirable to introduce an agricultural element in any scheme of higher public instruction." There were to be two departments —a public-school department and a college or upper department. These extracts are from the original records of the Canterbury Association; but the governing body found, in the early days of the settlement, that it was impossible to carry out the college or upper department then, so we threw our whole strength into the grammar school. 4049. Professor Shand.] How many of these divisions have jo\x been able to take up as yet ?—We have taken up the theological and classical. 4030. The Chairman.] Do I understand that the College was founded for the purpose of combining classical and theological training ?—Tes. 4051. Bey. W. J. Habens.] But not necessarily in one and the same course? —Not necessarily. 4052. Professor Sale.] Is every student who is admitted into the College department required to attend lectures in theology ? —Tes. 4053. The Chairman.] Is admission to the Grammar School or lower department confined to Church of England students ? —No ; practically it is not confined to those students. We have had Jews and Eoman Catholics ; but we do our best to bring all the students under the religious instruction of the Church of England. We have always had a voluntary conscience clause. 4051. Professor Sale.] Have there been a considerable number of boys in the Grammar School who have taken advantage of the conscience clause ? —We have had Presbyterians —one Presbyterian boy carried off the divinity prize; and we have had Wesleyans ; and I know we have had Eoman Catholics, because I recollect giving directions that a boy of that denomination should not attend chapel, when I saw by his behaviour that it was not agreeable to him; but I could not tell you the number who have availed themselves of the conscience clause. 4055. The Chairman.] How are the members of the governing body appointed ?—Vacancies are filled up by the governing body itself, which was originally constituted under a Provincial Ordinance, in which the names of the first governors were mentioned. 4050. What is tho number ?—The number originally, including the Bishop, was twelve. We may have, under our statutes, as many as twenty-five, but there are only twelve at present. 4057. How are the vacancies filled up ? —By the governing body ; the caudidates are nominated and then put to the vote. 4058. Eor what period of time do the members hold office?— For life, unless they leave the country, or incur any of the disabilities mentioned in the statute, such as bankruptcy, &c. 4059. Are the masters of the Grammar School paid wholly by fixed salaries ? —No ; they receive a certain stipend, and three of the masters have houses, aud receive a certain amount from pupils who board with them. 4060. Do they participate in the fees ?—No ; the fees are handed over to the treasurer. 4061. Do you consider that the remuneration of the masters is fairly adequate ?—No, Ido not think it is ; but it is the utmost we can give. 4062. Professor Cook.] Does your remark apply to all the masters, or to any in particular ?—To all. 4063. Professor Shand.] Must the masters be members of the Church of England?—Tes. 4061. The Chairman.] Is the keeping of the boarding-house supposed to be a source of income ?— It is unquestionably a source of income. 4065. Are examinations held annually or half-yearly ? —Examinations are held annually, and also at the end of each term, when they are conducted by the masters themselves. But there is a public examination held by the governing body at tho end of the year. 4066. Professor Sale.] What persons have the governing body been in the habit of employing as examiners ? —Sometimes we have appointed the examiners from our own body, but we are glad when we can obtain the assistance of any one outside. The Dean and Mr. Eolleston have examined in classics; Mr. Tancred has generally examined in ancient and modern history; and in mathematics Archdeacon Willock has generally examined, but ho is incapacitated now.

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4037. Have the examiners usually been selected from the Pellows?—Tes; but we have always been anxious to go outside the governing body for examiners. It is not always easy, however, to find them. The Dean has generally examined in classics. 4035. Have tho examiners' reports usually been of a satisfactory nature ?—They have been for the last six or seven years. Sometimes there have been some rather severe censures passed. 4069. It has been stated by the examiners for the University of Now Zealand that the state of classical learning in the schools in this colony is very low. Have you had anything in the reports from your examiners to confirm that ? —No ; not of late. 4070. Has Christ's College sent up annually a fair number of candidates for junior scholarships? —I think so ; aud, on the whole, I think it will be found that they gained a fair number of scholarships. 4071. They sent up candidates at each of the examinations of the last two years ?—Tes. 4072. Are the examiners who are appointed by the governing body paid for their services ?—• No. 4073. The Chairman.] Have the professors of the Canterbury College ever been engaged as examiners? —No. 4074. Do you believe the parents are generally satisfied with the extent and quality of the instruction given at the school ?—I think so, as a general rule. Of course every school requires to be kept up to the mark; but the young men we have sent Home to England have taken good places at the Universities. 4075. What is the income of the school, independent of fees ?—I cannot tell you without reference to papers. The figures, I thiuk, have all been furnished. 4076. Has the income been sufficient to maintain the school iv an efficient state?—l should be very glad if we could increase our means, in order to pay our masters better, and also to provide more buildings: we have had a difficulty in that respect. 4077. Professor Shand.] How were the funds for erecting the buildings obtained? —Partly, I suppose, by subscriptions in the first place, but chiefly from our own resource?. Under the original Ordinance we were permitted to borrow to a certain amount—£soo; but that money was to ba reinvested, and not sunk in building. 4078. Professor Cook.] When you said " from our own resources," did you mean from the general diocesan funds, or from special endowments? —From the general College funds. 4079. The Chairman.] Do you think the foes charged are reasonable, or is it desirable that they should be raised or lowered ?—They were raised four or five years ago, and I think they are sufficiently high now. 4080. What are they ?—They were raised from £12 to £L 5. 4081. And for boarders? —The charge for boarders has not been raised. 4082. What is the charge for boarding? —I think it is about £50. There was a grant of £1,000 made by the Provincial Council for building the large schoolroom, and, until shortly before the Provincial Council ceased to exist, there was a grant made of about £250 or £300 a year towards the expenses of the school. 4083. Dr. Hector.] Is there any debt on the building at the present time?—No; excepting that for which the governing body are responsible. 4084. Has the building been absolutely clear of debt ? Is there any sum borrowed on interest ? —There is an amount which we have borrowed from other funds, and for which we are personally responsible. 4085. Aud is the interest paid from the current revenue ?—Tes. 4086. Do you happen to remember the amount of that debt ? —No. 4087. Professor Sale.] To what purpose waa the money obtained from the Provincial Treasury applied? —The £1,000 was applied to building the large stone building used as a school. 4088. Por what purpose was the debt incurred ? —Por building and repairing masters' houses, and also for buildings belonging to the collegiate department of the school. 4089. Prom what source was the borrowed money obtained? —In part from the general fund and from the Scholarship Pund. There is a Scholarship Fund which is specially set apart for students iv divinity, and, as no suitable candidate,, offered themselves, the money has been accumulating. 4090. The Chairman.] How many special scholarships have been founded in connection with the school?—We offer as many as we cau. When a scholarship is founded we issue advertisements, and frequently there have been no applications for them. The Buller and Eeay scholarships are two ia number, and of the value of £70 a year each. There is the Somes Student Scholarship of £50 a year, and the Eowley Scholarship of £70 a year, and there is a Dudley Divinity Scholarship. These are all for the upper department. In the lower department there are now current two Somes Scholarships of £40 a year each, and four Sons of Clergy Scholarships of £15 a year each. 4091. Professor Shand.] Are these scholarships awarded by competition? —Tes; all of them. 4092. To what class of candidates are they open ? —The candidates must pass in classics, mathematics, divinity, science, and history. 4093. But, I mean, are they open to all persons ? —To all persons who are members of the Church of England. 4091. The Chairman.] Are they confined to students in the College ?—They are open to every one —members of the Church of England; advertisements are issued in the papers in the other provinces. 4095. Are there any scholarships established by tho Board of Governors? —There are none established by the governors; they are all private foundation scholarships. 4096. I think you said that some of the students of Christ's College obtained University scholarships. Do you think the University scholarships that are offered are sufficient in number and value to encourage University education ?—Tes ; I think so. I should prefer, myself, that the candidates should be older than is the case at present. I think if a boy gains a University scholarship he ought

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to be at least seventeen years of age before he leaves school. With regard to the value of the scholarships, I should think that £45 was too little for a student of the University who had matriculated, and who would have to find his own board. "We find at Christ's College, in the upper department, that £75 is as little as we cau well allow for a student. The expense comes to more than £75 a year, and cannot be less than £80 or £85. 4097. I think Christ's College is affiliated to the University ? —Tes. 4098. What object had it in view iv becoming affiliated ? —I think the chief reason was because the minimum age for scholarships was so low, and we felt it w*as important for boys of fourteen or fifteen years of age still to continue under school discipline and training, and that, if we did not affiliate, we might lose promising boys who would bo taken from the school. Canterbury College was not in existence then. We wished, also, to have any advantages which might be derivable from the examinations by the University. 4099. Professor Sale.] Was Christ's College affiliated before the year 1874 ? —Tes ; as part of Canterbury Collegiate Union, which was affiliated in 1872. 4100. The Chairman.] Do you think it is a desirable tiling to combine secondary or grammarschool education with University education in the one institution ? Do you think it can be worked out ? —No; Ido not think it can be satisfactorily worked out. There have been instances in Eugland where boys at a very early age have got scholarships at Oxford, but they have been sent back from the University for another year, still holding their scholarships. That, however, has been quite exceptional. Ido not think it is desirable; and that is ono reason why I said I thought it was a great pity that tho minimum age for University scholarships was so low. 4101. Professor Shand.] Would you approve of Christ's College Grammar School withdrawing from affiliation if the minimum age for junior scholarships were raised ? —I should uot much care about it; I should not be sorry to lose tho affiliation. 4102. The Chairman] Are there any undergraduates of the New Zealand University at present attending Christ's College?—Tes; in the College department, not in the Grammar School. Originally we had boys holding University scholarships who were in the sixth form of our school; but that is not the case now. There are three undergraduates at the present moment in the upper department and boarding with us, and who are students at Canterbury College. 4103. Are there any special teachers in the collegiate department of Christ's College for imparting University education ? —The classical professor is the only one who supplies University instruction. 4104. Professor Sale.] Tou are acquainted with the conditions of affiliation prescribed in the regulations of tho University at pages 48 and 49 of the Calendar ? —-Tes. 4105. Would the upper or College department be capable, at the present time, of satisfying those conditions?—No, certainly not. 4106. Then, if the Grammar School department were withdrawn from affiliation, it would necessarily follow that the College department would withdraw also ?—I suppose it would. We have only been able to carry out these conditions by the boys being in the Grammar School. 4107. The Chairman.] Do you consider your College staff sufficient to train undergraduates for University examinations ?—The time may come when, with increased resources, our staff may be sufficient, but at present the staff of the upper department only consists of two teachers, who would not be sufficient. The masters of the lower school are competent to supply the instruction, being University men; but they could not be withdrawn from grammar-school work, and would not have the time at their disposal. 4108. Professor Sale.] How then does the institution at the present time get over the difficulty of supplying the three undergraduates now in residence with the necessary instruction ?—-We receive them as boarders in the upper department, and the professor there gives what instruction he can, but it is more as a private " coach " than as a professor ; and they attend the lectures at the Canterbury College. 4109. The Chairman.] Has Christ's College come into competition with any other local institution in respect to the attendance of students ?—I do not think it has. 4110. Is the number of pupils iv the Grammar School increasing or falling off?— Steadily increasing. lam not quite certain, but I think there are 200 on the books ; aud we have provided three boarding-houses at tho College, besides which, Canon Cotterill has a boarding-house of his own, with about eighteen or nineteen boys. There are only five young men in the upper department. 4111. Does either the College or Grammar School make any provision for female students ?—No. 4112. Did the institution in any way participate in the University money which was at one time distributed among the affiliated schools? —No; we have had no pecuniary assistance from the University. 4113. Tou are aware that some institutions received £300 a year for some time?—Tes, but we never did. While Christ's College was affiliated as part of the Collegiate Union, several of the masters of the College became lecturers in connection with the Union, and received payment out of the money granted by the University. 4114. Do you consider that, on the whole, affiliation has been a source of benefit ?—I think it was in the early days, because there were no schools then in which boys of fourteen or fifteen years of age, who had gained University scholarships, could receive their instruction, except schools of this sort; there were none in Canterbury, I know, and affiliation was a benefit in those days. 4115. Is there any special instruction given to undergraduates as distinct from other pupils?—No, excepting by the classical professor ; he is a sort of assistant or private tutor to those who are living in the upper department, but does not hold himself responsible for giving the students under his care full instruction in classics. 4116. Do they receive further instruction in classics at Canterbury College?—Tes. 4117. By whom is the matriculation examination conducted at Christ's College ?—Generally speaking, the appointment is made by the governing body—sometimes the sub-warden, the headmaster of the Grammar School, or tho classical master of the Grammar School.

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4118. Have examiners ever been appointed outside the teachers ?—No, not for the matriculation examination. 4119. Do you think that the New Zealand University, as it now exists, has assumed the form best suited to the circumstances of the colony ?—I think so. I should like to see a little enlargement of its functions. I should like to see either professors or lecturers attached to the University, who would fulfil the office of examiners of the different affiliated institutions, and who might also give lectures occasionally; who would be, according to my view—accustomed as I am to think of Oxford, where there are professors distinct from collegiate tutors —professors of the University. J think many of our professors out here are simply fulfilling the functions of collegiate tutors. The professors in Canterbury College, for instance, fulfil the functions more of collegiate tutors than of professors. But both in Oxford and Cambridge there are certain professors who give lectures to members of the different colleges. Now, I think that such professors should be attached to the University itself, and not to any particular local institution, and that they should extend their usefulness over the whole of New Zealand. I observe that in England instead of multiplying Universities they are making use of men of ability by sending them out to the large towns to endeavour to establish lectures, and foster the efforts of any college or school of sufficient power. The three Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London have combined together for that purpose ; and they evidently intend to send out competent men as lecturers, and to keep up the lectures in any particular town until they are self-supporting. In one or two instances, and particularly in the case of a Cambridge man, Professor Stuart, these efforts have been very successful. The University of New Zealand, as at present constituted, is simply an examining body, but it has no examiners. 4120. Professor Sale.] Tou think it should have a staff of examiners who might be occasionally employed as lecturers ? —Tes ; who might inspect the schools, and go round and examine the different educational institutions. I think it is objectionable to have to go outside of New Zealand for examiners. 4121. Do you mean that they should deliver lectures in the different towns?— They might deliver occasional lectures, but not so as to interfere with the education going forward in any particular locality—general lectures, or, perhaps, what I should call professors' lectures. The lectures given now are nothing more than what we used to have in the tutor's room at the University —nothing more than a higher class lesson. 4122. Then I suppose you mean that the professors should give systematic courses of lectures ia the places they visited ? —-They might if they were able to dossou the particular subject at which they were most at home. 4123. But would you make that a subordinate part of their work ?—Tes. "We want a body of examiners and of inspectors, and a body who might supplement their other work by giving lectures. 4124. Dr. Hector.] "Would you propose that those lectures of the professors should form part of the course for a degree examination ?—I think they would be useful, if they were on subjects which formed part of the University curriculum—science, classics, or English literature. I think they would give a great stimulus to higher education in the different localities. 4125. Professor Sale.] Would you wish to see such examiners appointed for life, or for a short term of years only ? —3. Rom my own experience, and considering that we should have to go outside of New Zealand to find them, I should say for a term of years. 4126. And at what salary do you think we should be able to obtain such men ? —I cannot say ; I have not calculated the expense. The travelling expenses would amount to a good deal, and of course they would have to be first-class men. 4127. How many such examiners would you wish to see undertaking the work ?—That would depend partly on the resources of the University. I should like to have examiners in all the different studies of the students. 4128. "Would you wish thorn to act alone as examiners, or in conjunction with the lecturers from the different affiliated institutions? —There would, at all events, at the present time be a certain amount of jealousy, and I would wish them to act alone for the present, and until our colleges are better established and better known. They have hardly yet gained that footing they ought to have, and will have, no doubt, eventually. 4129. Dr. Hector J] In the event of its being determined to have two examiners employed upon each subject, do you see any objection to one of the examiners being also a professor or lecturer engaged in actual teaching? —-He should never examine the students of his own college, for there would be a difficulty; he should never examine them for a degree or for honours. Therefore you must have a larger number of examiners. 4130. Do you think that under no circumstances is it allowable that a professor should examine his own studeuts for a degree ?—I think not, if there is any competition between students of his own college and those of other colleges. That was always the rule at Oxford and Cambridge :if a Fellow of my own college were an examiner, he always went out, and never asked a single question; and I think that seems to be the fairer plan. 4131. Professor Sale.] Tou are alluding to viva voce examinations at Home ?—Tes. 4132. Dr. Hector.] My question was more in regard to written examinations. If, in the preparation of a paper in one subject, two examiners were engaged, would there be any objection to one of those being employed in practical teaching in one of the colleges?—l should prefer, if possible— I do not know whether the University could bear the expense of it —that they should be quite apart; but, at the same time, by being connected with the University, they would have a very general idea that they were not asking questions beyond the ability of the students to answer, and they would know what was the course of teaching going forward iv the different institutions. That is where I think the examiner in Melbourne or in England must be at fault—through the want of that knowledge; and you must make allowance for the gradual growth of our collegiate establishments. 4133. Professor Sale.] As a temporary measure, do you approve of obtaining examination papers from England, and sending the answers of the candidates?—l do not think it is satisfactory; the examiners cannot form any idea of what we are doing.

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4134. Do you approve of it as a temporary measure?—l do, but Ido not think it is exactly satisfactory. 4135. Professor Shand.] You mentioned that tho English Universities had instituted a system of sending out lecturers to the large towns. Are the.;.' lecturers University professors ? —Not necessarily. I think Professor Stuart is one, but they are not necessarily University professors. The three Universities have agreed together to send out lecturers. 4136. But is it not tho case that by far the greater number of them are not University professors ? —No; but they are University men, and Fellows, resident, I suppose, at the University, who have undertaken the duty partly on their own account, and in some cases with assistance from the University. 4137. And they do not lecture to University students when they visit these large towns ?—No, they do not, but to students localized, or, in fact, any one who may offer to attend the lectures. I believe a certain fee is paid, but T doubt whether it covers the expsnse. Very often, however, in these large towns, such as Newcastle, Leeds, and others, persons are found ready with their voluntary contributions in support of the lectures. - 4138. So that practically there would not be a strong analogy between the lecturers at Home and tho University professors you would propose to appoint here ? —I think not. 4139. Professor Sale.] Would it be hopeless to expect the New Zealand University, or the affiliated institutions, for many years to come, to follow the lead of the English Universities in the way you speak of? —I do not know what the resources of the University are, but it might begin by having two examiners. Tho first part of the professors' duties would bo to examine the different collegiate institutions in the country, whether affiliated or not, and to examine for degrees and matriculation ; and then they might perform the functions of inspectors of all the educational institutions, and give occasional lectures on those subjects in which they were most competent to give instruction. I think they would find full employment. 4140. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it would be a good thing to bring the colleges and the University into closer relations by giving the colleges some voice in the appointment of the members of the University Senate ?—Yes, I think so. 4141. The Chairman.] Are you acquainted with tho efforts now being made in England for giving a University education to young ladies ?—No; I know very little about it. Mr. J. N. Tosswill was sworn and examined. 4142. The Chairman.] You are, I believe, one of the governors of Canterbury College ?—Yes. 4143. And, as such, the Commission understand that you can give us some information with regard to the Agricultural College which is about to be established. What steps have been taken up to the present time towards establishing the institution?—A farm of 400 acres has been purchased at Lincoln, and the Board has virtually completed the purchase of another hundred acres, making in all 500 acres. School-buildings are in course of erection, and stock is being purchased. Plans for the farm buildings are now before the Agricultural School Committee of the College. A director has been appointed, and it is estimated that the school will be in full working order about the end of the year. 4144. Do I understand you to say that the farm is not fully stocked as yet ? —lt is not fully stocked. The Director is purchasing suitable stock from time to time, as opportunity offers. 4145. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the Director living on the farm ? —Yes. 1146. The Chairman.] When is it proposed to commence agricultural operations ? —The Director is in charge of the farm, and he has already commenced operations : that is to say, he is sowing some of the land in grass, and bringing it into what he considers a better state of cultivation. The men who were farming it previously were ordinary farmers, and the Director is bringing it up to what he considers a proper condition for an experimental and model farm. But tho experimental working will not commence probably for a few months. 4147. Has the Director any pupils under instruction ?—He can take no pupils until the buildings are completed, which will not be until towards the end of the year, 4148. Professor Shand.] Is it intended to work the farm to any great extent as an experimental farm ?—Certainly. 4149. And another portion of it as a model farm, I presume ?—Yes. It is intended to work a portion of the farm as an experimental farm, publishing the results of the experiments, and making them a benefit to the whole colony, and, at the same time, to establish a school, which will also be open to the colony, for the training of young men to become advanced farmers. 4150. And, in order to carry out the training of the students, it will be necessary, I suppose, to work part of the farm as a model farm ?—Certainly. 4151. To show them how operations ought to bo performed ? —Yes; that is fully contemplated. For tho purposes of experimental farming, you do not require a very large area. You enclose small portions of the land —perhaps the eighth of an acre —and you try experiments, such as putting in grain in a particular method, aud sowing different kinds of grain, and so on. Tliese crops are reaped carefully and threshed out, and a record is kept. The rest of the land, some 400 acres and upwards, would be available as a model farm. I should imagine 50 acres would be ample for the experimental farm. 4152. Professor Cook.] Is the farm a suitable size for the purpose intended ? —I think we might with advantage add another hundred or two hundred acres, for the reason that it is desirable to get every variety of soil. 4153. That has been borne in mind in purchasing this farm—that there should be a variety of soil? —Yes. But we want a little more light land. Wo aimed at procuring good land in the first instance, but it would be an advantage if we had another hundred or two hundred acres of lighter land. 4154. Professor Shand.] Do you expect to work the farm at a' profit ? —The model farm should pay its working expenses, but of course we could look for no profit from the experimental part. 26— H. 1.

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4155. But would you not expect a model farm to do more than pay its expenses ? —I think it would fully pay its working expenses. I doubt, however, whether you would get very much more from it. Tou must remember that a model farm is worked, not, perhaps, in an expensive way, but at a greater expense than in the case of an ordinary farm. 4156. Professor Sale.] Is this greater expense owing to the sort of labour you employ upon it ?— Tou would do many things on a model farm which, iv the ordinary course of farming, as practised in the colony, you would leave undone. Tour hedges would be trimmed with a little more nicety, and your farm operations -would be carried on with greater finish, than would be the case in the ordinary course of farming. 4157. But would not that greater care pay in results ? —I doubt whether it would show in the balance-sheet. I might explain that the question of profit or loss would depend very largely on whether it was intended to demonstrate to the pupils on the farm the results from different methods of farming, or whether it was simply intended to make the farm profitable. 4158. And, for the purpose of teaching, which of these two plans, do you think, ought to be followed ?—I should prefer to see it made a profitable farm ; but this is a matter which requires very careful consideration. It would be of great value to the students to show the results side by side of different systems or courses of farming, although at increased expenditure and consequent loss of profit. It might be well to show students what to avoid as well as what to follow. This could not be brought out satisfactorily by the experimental portion of the farm. 4159. Professor Cook.] For the purpose of demonstrating the results of a crop sown early, as compared with a crop sown somewhat later, or the effects of deep ploughing as compared with shallow, would it not be sufficient to use small patches of land, like those for experimental purposes of which you were speaking ?—Tou could try it on a small piece of ground, but the result would be somewhat hazardous. 4160. Do you think it would be necessary to conduct these operations on a considerable scale, and in a good-sized field, in order to demonstrate the results fully?—l think it would be desirable. 4161. The Chairman.] Have you formed any estimate as to the cost of maintaining this farm ? —It is difficult to arrive at any accurate estimate, because the plan of management is not fully matured yet, and it is a question what lectures are to be given at the farm, aud what the course will be, upon which the amount of the expense would greatly depend. The Board desires to make the institution as truly national as possible —to make it a school to which lads from all parts of New Zealand may come, and receive the highest possible training iv agriculture, scientific as well as practical. 4102. "What is the present income of the Agricultural School ? —I think it is about £5,000 a year. 4163. When the buildings are all put up do you think that sum will be required for the maintenance of the school ? —Tes, I think it will. The experimental portion of the farm will cause considerable expense. The Director receives £600 per annum. A lecturer on veterinary surgery is about to be appointed. Many other lecturers will be required. The trust contributes £500 per annum towards the expenses of Professor Bickerton's department, and a proportion of the Registrar's salary and the general expenses of the College. It will enable us to establish scholarships. We have already established six scholarships open to the whole colony. 4164. Of what value ? —They cover all charges for board, lodging, and instruction, equal to about £65 a year. Besides the six we have already instituted, I hope to see more scholarships established, and that would necessitate larger buildings and a larger staff, &c. Then, again, the question has already been mooted, whether we ought not to have a branch institution in another portion of the province, and on a different desciption of land, so as to show certain results. 4165. Dr. Hector.] Are the scholarships now open for competition?—A resolution proposed by myself passed the Board agreeing to create these scholarships, and the conditions under which they are to be open are now under consideration. 4166. The Chairman.] For how long are they to be tenable ?—-They are worth about £65 a year, and they are to be held for three years. 4167. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What kind of attainments do you propose to test in the examination for these scholarships ? —Of course everything is not decided yet, but I imagine that boys of fifteen or sixteen would compete, and that they would be examined not so much in technical as in general knowledge. Ido not suppose, for instance, that such a question as their capabilities in ploughing would come into account, or any technical knowledge of farm work: the endeavour would be more to obtain clever, promising boys. 4168. Dr. Sector.] Do you know whether the standard would be about equal to that of the University junior scholarship examination ? —I cannot say : not nearly so, I should imagine. 4169. Professor Sale.] Then one of the principal items of expense would be the fund required for the maintenance of these scholarships?— The first expense would be in connection with the farm itself, and with the experimental department, and it might be considerable. 4170. But supposing the institution to be in full operation, and the farm paying, or a little more than paying, you say it is necessary that it should receive £5,000 a year : would that money be mainly devoted to the maintenance of scholarships ?—A considerable portion of it would be so devoted. 4171. Is it more necessary, do you think, to institute scholarships for the purpose of drawing students to an agricultural school than it is for the purpose of drawing them to any other educational institution ? —I certainly think so. 4172. Why ? —I will not underrate the value of scholarships to any other educational institution ; but the great want on the part of the farmers of New Zealand at the present time is instruction from men who are capable of giving instruction—who are not only scientific men, professors of chemistry and so on, but men with a scientific training and also with practical knowledge. 4173. Are the farmers of New Zealand, as a class, less able to- provide their sons with instruction than any other class of the community ? —-The question is a somewhat difficult one, because, of course, there are many farmers who are well-to-do, and others who are exceedingly poor. Farmers labour under the difficulty of being at a distance from superior schools. As a rule, other classes of the com'

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munity are at the centres, where education can be obtained at a comparatively cheap cost. The farmers, from their isolated position, labour under peculiar disadvantages. From that point of view, I think they are less able to provide their sons with instruction. 4174. Dr. Hector.'] Would these scholarships be open only to the sons of farmers ? —Open to everybody throughout the colony, without the slightest restriction. 4175. I observe in the syllabus of the course of instruction that it is divided into several groups, the second group being under chemistry. I should like to know whether it is intended to take pupils who have no knowledge of chemistry at all, and teach them that part of chemistry which is applicable to agriculture ; or whether it is intended to teach chemistry as a whole subject ? —These are matters that have yet to be considered; no conclusion has been arrived at regarding them. 4176. But, from your knowledge of the subject, do you think it would be necessary to teach chemistry as a complete course of study in connection with the Agricultural College ? —I would teach chemistry as applied to agriculture at the farm. At the same time, I would not give it, or any other subject, such a place as to exclude practical farming : I would put the knowledge of practical farming in the first place. 4177. But could not a general knowledge of chemistry, a general knowledge of natural history, the mathematical knowledge required for land-surveying, mensuration, book-keeping, &c. —could not these be better obtained by the pupil before he came to the College, at other institutions already provided for teaching these branches ? —I think not, because, take chemistry, for example : The instruction which is given in chemistry in institutions such as Canterbury College is of a general character, and not instruction in chemistry as applied to agriculture; there is a wide difference between the two. 4178. Do you think it would be satisfactory to teach one branch of chemistry —its application to agriculture —without also teaching the general principles ? —'Certainly not. 4179. "Would it be necessary to have the general principles of chemistry taught as part of the agricultural course, if the same tuition could be got elsewhere—in fact, to duplicate the teaching ?—I think it is desirable that chemistry should be taught at the farm, and by an instructor capable of teaching chemistry as applied to agriculture, not to the exclusion of the general principles of chemistry, but that the pupil should be thoroughly acquainted with the agricultural side of chemistry, if I may so express myself ; and the instruction should be given on the spot, where there are numberless examples in the ordinary course of farming. 4180. Supposing one of your successful scholars had taken a course of chemistry, and acquired the art of chemical analysis, would it bo necessary, when he went to the Agricultural School, that, as part of his course, he should go through all his work again ?—I think not. 4181. Could he not perform those analyses which are necessary for agricultural purposes ? If he went to the Agricultural School, would it not be sufficient if he applied his knowledge of chemistry in the direction of agriculture ? Take the case of two lads—one who had received instruction at the farm, and another who had received instruction from a professor, say, at Canterbury College. —I think the lad at the farm would be at a great advantage, and the lad from the College would be at a great disadvantage ; because the instruction the former would have received at the farm would have been of a special and technical character. I may say, in addition, that there would be the greatest possible difficulties in sending lads in from the farm to receive instruction at Canterbury College. That idea was fully considered, and there were found to be very great difficulties in the way. 4182. But if a general knowledge of chemistry, natural history, and mathematics were treated like reading, writing, and the other preliminaries which can be acquired before a student enters the Agricultural College, would not that be sufficient ? ■ You might as well, on the same ground, commence at the very beginning of education, and go over the primary-school work again. "What lam driving at is this : If provision has already been made for teachiflg chemistry, natural history, and other branches which you are going to teach at the school, is it necessary to go to the expense of duplicating these lectureships, because that would very materially add to the annual cost of the institution?—l think it is necessary —decidedly; because the young men who would come to us would in all probability be fifteen or sixteen years of age. Their knowledge would not be of a very extensive character at that age, and it would require to be kept up and their instruction continued. It would be of great value to them to continue to receive chemical instruction for instance, so that they might understand why, scientifically, certain results followed from- the application of certain manures, and from certain courses of farming. 4183. That is special chemistry, applied to agriculture; there is no doubt about that. Still, a person can hardly study that without knowing something of chemistry. A person who has acquired a knowledge of chemistry, and possesses the art of making chemical analyses, can proceed to direct his knowledge to the special subject of agriculture at once ? —I doubt whether many of the young men or lads who would come to the farm would be so far advanced in chemistry aa to be capable of making chemical analyses. 4184. You think it would not be well to require them to have some knowledge of chemistry before coming to the farm ?—I think it might; but it would be of a somewhat elementary character. 4185. Professor Shand.~\ You mentioned that there would be a difficulty in sending the agricultural students in to Canterbury College to attend lectures. What is the nature of that difficulty ?—The farm is twelve or thirteen miles from Christchurch, and if the students came into lectures they would lose the whole afternoon or the whole morning. Trains do not fit in, and there would be a difficulty in that way ; and the discipline of the school would be very much interfered with if the students had to come into town three or four afternoons during the week. Farm operations are of such a character that the students would not be able, conveniently, to go on the exact half-day required, or if they did they might miss a great deal of instruction to be received from operations in progress. There would be a good deal of demoralization in the school if the students were marched off on two or three afternoons in the week to attend lectures at Canterbury College. I cannot see how the Director would have a sufficient control over his pupils, or how the school could work satisfactorily, if the students were going in by train to attend lectures in town.

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4186. Professor Sale.] Do you think the College professors might go to the students?—Tes, to some extent, but not with advantage, for the reasons already given with regard to chemistry. 4187. Professor Cook.] But you would only pay ono teacher instead of two? —That is quite correct. But you come back to the difficulty I pointed out: the teacher from tho College is a general chemist rather than an agricultural chemist; and that is my great point. To teach agricultural chemistry successfully you must have a man who has made that branch his special study, such as Mr. Ivey, the Director of the farm. 4188. Dr. Hector.] After the students have once entered the School of Agriculture, does their education in all other respects cease, excepting so far as is prescribed in the schedule? —That is another question which has to be considered. I have a strong feeling myself that it should not cease; that it would be detrimental to a man's future success in life if he went to the farm at the age of fifteen or sixteen, and only learned farming, to the exclusion of everything else. I think that would be a mistake. 4189. Supposing it was necessary that he should continue his studies in English, modern languages, or mathematics, would the College Board propose to establish lectureships in connection with any of these branches? —Nothing is settled yet; but, personally, I should wish to see provision made at the farm to keep the students up in general knowledge. 4190. Then the students who entered the Agricultural College would bo cut off from all participation in a University career ? They would be shut out from getting any certificate of proficiency or eminence in the way of degrees ? You do not propose that the course should be a branch of a University course, or in any way connected with higher education ? —The school is connected with Canterbury College; and young men who had gone through the farm course would get a certificate from the College Board, which would be of the very highest value to them. By holding one of those certificates they would be eligible for the management of estates, and for various employments which, no doubt, will be open in the future in connection with agriculture. They would certainly hold diplomas from the College. 4191. In the nature of a degree ? —No; simply a certificate without any connection with the University. I think lam right in saying that at Cirencester young men who have gone through the course and passed the final examination receive a certificate, which they make use of in after-life, and which they find very valuable —a certificate of competency. 4192. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it desirable that a farmer should have what is ordinarily known as a liberal education iv addition to his knowledge of farming ? —Decidedly, if it is attainable, or if he can afford it. I think that a man who has had a liberal education, and who also has practical knowledge, makes the best farmer. 4193.- With such resources as the Agricultural School will probably have at its disposal, do you not think it might secure for those who have passed through its course a liberal, as well as a technical, education ?—I think there would be considerable difficulty in combining the two. The time of the students will be largely taken up on the farm in learning farming. Farming operations are of such a nature that if a lad is to learn farming thoroughly he must spend a great deal of his time in the field watching tho operations in progress and working—it is intended that the lads shall work, and participate in the labours of the farm —and it would be difficult to find time for acquiring a liberal education side by side with a knowledge of farming; otherwise I should see no objection, but many advantages. 4194. If it be difficult to carry on the two courses side by side, do you think there is time, before a young man goes to the active duties of life, to obtain both the technical knowledge and the liberal education ? —1 think not. 4195. Say between the ages of fifteen and twenty-tw-o ?—I doubt it. The farm course would take at least three years, so that, if the student began at fifteen or sixteen, he would be eighteen or nineteen at its close. He would then probably go on to a farm, with some man actually engaged in farming, either as an assistant, or possibly as manager, and he would very soon find himself in business. 4196. Does it not seem to follow, then, that the class of men that the Agricultural School would turn out would not be the highest class of farmers, because they would not have a liberal education ? — It must be remembered, in regard to all my answers, that this question is still before the College, and that it has not decided absolutely what shall be the nature of the instruction given at the farm. All that the College has done has been to procure the services of a director, Mr. Ivey, who is thoroughly competent, a member of the Chemical Society, and a man of considerable attainments. The programme for the school is not sketched out yet, and, iv speaking now, I am simply giving my own views. 4197. Do you think it would be a fair application of a part of the income of the Agricultural School to devote it to the liberal education of some of the students, as distinct from, and in addition to, their technical education?— Certainly Ido ; and I would wish to say again that I think the most successful farmer, and the farmer we should endeavour to turn out from the school, is a man possessed not only of a technical knowledge of farming, but abo of a liberal education. I fully recognize that view: the only difficulty I see is to find time, in the midst of the multifarious farming operations, to give the necessary instruction. 4195. Professor Cook.] How* do you propose to provide for teaching natural history ? —lt is proposed to avail ourselves of the services of some of the professors of Canterbury College—that the professors should go to the school and give instruction on those subjects. 4199. Will the Agricultural Trust pay part of their salaries ?—Tes ; that has been contemplated. 4200. Would a certificate of attendance at similar classes elsewhere relieve a student from attendance at the Agricultural College course, and so shorten the time of his attendance at that place, and allow him to devote his time to some other branch ? —I should think so, but cannot speak definitely. If he had passed an examination equal to that required at the school, it would possibly do so in some subjects. 4201. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you thiuk it was the intention of those who originally endowed the Agricultural School to make it a more wealthy institution than the College for liberal education P* —I was

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a member of the Provincial Council, not when the reserves were made, but when the trust came under discussion in a variety of ways. Trustees were appointed by the Provincial Council at one time to administer the trust, but it passed into the hands of the Canterbury College. I was well acquainted with the feeling of the Provincial Council with regard to the trust, and I feel bound to say that body looked very favourably upon the establishment of a school of agriculture. It considered that Canterbury would be mainly supported by agriculture, and that the development of the agriculture of the province was a matter of primary importance. 4202. Was there anything to indicate that they desired to put instruction in agriculture in a position of advantage, as compared with the whole curriculum of a liberal education ? —I think the Provincial Council desired to see this Agricultural School started, and started upon a liberal basis. The Council was somewhat divided in opinion with regard to the higher schools of the province. In regard to Canterbury College, there were some members of the Council who did not by any means advance its interests, and there were others who supported it most strenuously. But I think the Council was nearly, if not altogether, unanimous with regard to the establishment of a school of agriculture. •1*203. Dr. Hector.] Is there any particular advantage in the School of Agriculture being connected with Canterbury College ? —There are many advantages. The expenses of management are shared, and the farm will, as I have said, avail itself of the services of some of the professors of the College. I thiuk these are substantial advantages. 4201. Professor Sale.] From what class do you expect your students to be mainly drawn ? —I can hardly say. The scholarships will be open to the whole colony, and of course the lads gaining the scholarships may come from every class of the community. 4205. Is it intended that in awarding scholarships the circumstances of the candidates shall be taken into consideration —I mean with respect to their means of affording to pay for education ?— I think not; they will be open to the whole colony without any restriction. 4200. Dr. Hector.] Tou say that the scholarships will be open to the whole colony. That is from a desire to give the institution a colonial character ? —Tes ; the aim of the Board is to make this school a thoroughly colonial one. 4207. In that case would it not perhaps be advisable to give its governing Jiody a wider basis than the managing body of a local college has ? —There would be a great practical difficulty in the way of any scheme of that kind, because it is necessary for the governing body to be upon the spot. Matters are constantly cropping up in the management of a farm which have to be referred to headquarters. 4208. But the appointment of the governing body on the spot might still be of a more extended character than the appointment of the governing body of Canterbury College ? —I think it might be ; but I also think it would practically come to the same thing in the end. 4209. Far instance, you have already mentioned that tho establishment of a second model farm for the purpose of getting a greater variety of soil and climate to gather experience from has been suggested. Supposing it were proposed to establish this second model farm in the northern part of the colony, would the governing body of Canterbury College object to apply the funds which have already been allocated locally to the establishment of a second farm in the northern part of the colony ? —That is a question which has never come before the College Board in any way. I could not say. Mr. J. E. Bbow-T, M.H.8., sworn and examined. 4210. The Chairman.] Tou have been a settler in the Canterbury Province for a considerable time ? —I have. 4211. Tou are acquainted, I presume, with the mode of governing Canterbury College. Do you know how many governors there are ?—I cannot say how many there are now. I believe there were about twenty-three or twenty-four appointed some years ago under an Ordinance of the Provincial Council. 4212. Can you inform the Commission how vacancies in the Board are filled up ? —I understand that, under the powers of the Ordinance, vacancies are filled up by the remaining members of the Board, and that that will continue to be the case until there are thirty members of the College who are undergraduates of the University of New Zealand. 4213. Have you any general idea what proportion of the present governors have been appointed by the Board? —-I think there are eleven who were not originally appointed by the Ordinance of the Provincial Council; and I notice by newspaper reports that two others have been recently appointed. 4214. Would you state to the Commission whether you think the mode of electing the governors of the College is a satisfactory mode ?—ln saying that I do not think it is a proper system I express not only my own opinion, but that of a great many persons who have mentioned the matter to me. I suggested to some Canterbury members of the Assembly last session that the Board should be appointed in a different manner, or, rather, that it should be reconstituted ; but no action was taken. It was at the time when a discussion was going on about secondary education and classical-school reserves; but it was found that there were differences of opinion among the Canterbury members, and I did not move in the matter. I brought tho subject forward at the request of certain influential persons in Canterbury, who thought that the existing Board very much resembled a close borough, and that, as it not only had the control of Canterbury College, but also of the Girls' High School, the Boys' High School, the Museum, the Agricultural School, and the Public Library, it was desirable that it should be a more open body. The suggestion I made was that the professors of Canterbury College should have the power of appointing a certain number of the new Board; that the present governors should appoint a proportion of the new Board ; that the University Council should have the power of appointing a certain number; that the Governor of the colony should appoint a certain number; aud that, in the case of vacancies occurring, each body mentioned, with the exception of the second, should have the power of reappointing—that the professors of the College, the University Council, and the Governor

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. of the colony should have the power of filling up the vacancies that occurred in their appointments, and that the appointees of the old Board should fill up any vacancies occurring in their number : in fact, continuing the power to each body; the appointments to be for life, or until tho provision of the Ordinance could be exercised. 4214 a. Do I understand you to say that you would exclude the professors of the College from holding a seat ? —No ; I would rather that they would fill the vacancy up with one of their own members ; but I would not confine tliem to that, as it might, perhaps, be inconvenient to do so. 4215. Tou made some allusion to the number of institutions which are under the control of this Board: would it, in your opinion, be advisable that the control of these different institutions should be placed in the hands of separate bodies, instead of in the hands of one governing body ? —I have always opposed the Public Library being placed in the hands of the Canterbury College Board of Governors. It is an institution which, I think, should be managed by a more representative body, and lam of opinion that it should bo maintained partly, at all events, by public subscriptions. I have always entertained a strong objection to making Boards close bodies, and giving them the exclusive and permanent management of institutions founded, if not supported, by public funds. 421 G. Be v. W. J. Habens.] When you say "public subscriptions," do you mean by way of rates, or of voluntary subscriptions ?—Voluntary subscriptions. 4217. Are you aware that the Public Library is partly maintained by such public subscriptions?— I understand that it is ; but the public who subscribe have no voice in its management. 4218. Dr. Hector.] Does the Public Library receive a share of the annual vote of the Assembly ? —I am not sure about that. 4219. In talking of close governing bodies, do you draw a distinction between trustees for the management of endowments where the conditions are prescribed and trustees for the disbursement of an annual vote ? Does the objection which you entertain to having such trusts placed in the hands of what you call a close body—a body entirely nominated —apply with equal force to those bodies that have to disburse an annual revenue ? —Yes; I think the same objection applies to permanent trustees. The circumstances of the colony, and particularly those regarding the occupation of lands, are changing so rapidly as to render very undesirable the existence of bodies who get into a certain groove from which it is impossible to move them, and who lay down cast-iron rules which nothing will make them depart from. 4220. The Chairman.] Have the Public Library and the Museum been long under the control of the governors of Canterbury College ?—According to the Ordinance, they seem to have been handed over in 1873. 4221. By whom were they managed before then ? —The Museum was managed by certain trustees, including Mr. Potts, Mr. Webb, and one or two others. I think the trust was constituted by an Ordinance of 1870. 4222. Was the Library managed by the same body of trustees ? —No ; the Library, then called the Mechanics' Institute, belonged to certain trustees outside of the public authorities and of Canterbury College. 4223. I understand you think that the different institutions which have been referred to should not be under the control of one body ? —I do not think it is desirable that the six institutions I have mentioned should be under the control of ono body. Besides, I think that trustees for reserves, and who have the management of property, should be distinct from a body having the control of education. It does not always follow, because gentlemen are very successful in the management of schools and colleges, that therefore they can manage real estate and reserves. Mr. C. C. Corfe, 8.A., sworn and examined. 4224. The Chairman.] Tou are the headmaster of Christ's College Grammar School ?—Xes. 4225. How long have you held that position? —I was acting headmaster from May, 1872, to December, 1873, when I was appointed headmaster. 4226. AVhat was your previous educational experience ? —I was Senior Optime at Cambridge ; I took private pupils at Cambridge the term after my degree; I then had a tutorship in Ireland; and from there I took a temporary mastership at Itossall, in Lancashire. I was then appointed mathematical master of Christ's College Grammar School, and came to New Zealand, and was appointed acting headmaster during the absence of the Rev. W. C. Harris. 4227. Do I understand that you were selected for the post of mathematical master of Christ's College Grammar School at Home ?—Tes. 4228. Have any important changes taken place in the organization of the school since you became headmaster ? —Since I became headmaster one man has taken the divinity of the whole school, whereas formerly the assistant masters took their respective forms in divinity. I think, also, that the science master has been appointed iv my time, but I cannot say positively ; certainly the science department has undergone changes. A Trench master—a foreigner—has been appointed; German has been taught; and certain boys have been allowed not to commence Greek. These are changes which have taken place recently; there may be others which I cannot recollect. 4229. Have there been any changes in the curriculum?—Tes ; formerly every boy was obliged to learn divinity under his form master : now, a boy may take divinity under the divinity master ; or, if there is any objection to his being taught divinity by a clergyman of the Church of England, he can learn divinity under the master of his form ; and, if there are further scruples, he is not compelled to learn divinity at all. There are three distinct classes with regard to divinity. The two hours a "week which every boy has to devote to science is, I suppose, a change in the curriculum ; and so with the German and French. French is now taught in the lowest form but one ; the lowest form is the first, and the next form is the remove. French is taught in the remove; formerly it was begun in the fourth form. 4230. Has the staff been increased since you became headmaster ?—Tes : the staff is stronger

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than it was by the addition of a French master, a divinity master, a science mastoi*, and an assistant master. 4231. "What are the duties of the headmaster ?—My special duties in the teaching department are those of the mathematical master; and lam generally responsible for the whole work of the school. 4232. Professor Shand.] How many forms come under your personal tuition as mathematical master ?—Under my regular tuition, the whole of what we call the upper school (except the fourth form), and the highest division of the rest of the school. 4233. Of what does the whole of the upper school consist ?—lt consists of the sixth, upper fifth, middle fifth, lower fifth, and fourth forms. The upper part of the school is classified, and the lower part of the school is classified. I take regularly the first division, which is called Division A, of the lower part of the school, and the others I take as I think fit. "When I say that I take the whole of the upper part of the school regularly, I am sometimes able to make a small subdivision of backward boys who do not come so regularly under my tuition. But that is a change which I make according as my staff will allow me to do so. I have been able to do it, and I do it when I can; but if the staff is required for other purposes I take the whole of the upper part of the school regularly. 4234. Is the classification in your school identical for mathematics and for classics ?—No. 4235. "Would you be good enough to explain the points of difference ?—lt is the same to this extent: that I get the sixth and upper fifth at the same hour, and I divide the sixth and upper fifth into three divisions; and the middle and lower fifth, whose time for mathematics is the same, are divided into two other divisions. It is partially the same : that is to say, a boy in the sixth and upper fifth, according to my present classification, has to be in one of the first three divisions, and the boys in the next two forms in one or other of the next two divisions. But the lower part of the school is classified separately. The lower part of the school do their mathematical work in the afternoons, and the upper in the mornings. 4236. But do all the boys in the lower school do their mathematics at the same hour ? —Tes; in the afternoon. 4237. So that it is possible to have a perfectly independent classification so far as the lower school is concerned ?—Tes. 4238. And is it possible, if it were desirable, to have a perfectly independent classification for mathematics in the upper school ?—I think it is desirable, but I think there are drawbacks as well. 4239. Do your arrangements permit of its being done? —Our staff would not allow of it. As headmaster I have the power of making my own time-table, and, of course, as mathematical master, I am to a certain extent anxious to see the school distinguish itself in mathematics, and should like to classify the whole school for mathematics quite independently; but I have not yet seen my way to do it satisfactorily, and without certain disadvantages. My present plan I think meets the case in some way ; it is a partial classification ; I do not think it is as good as an entire classification of the whole school. 4240. Professor Cook.] Do you think that if you had a sufficiently large staff of masters it would be desirable that the classification of mathematics should be entirely independent from that of classics ? —I do not know that it would in a school the size of ours. Of course a very much larger staff of masters, with the present school, is quite out of the question. I think that bifurcation and the independent classification of a variety of subjects are matters which to a great extent depend upon the size of the school. If it can be worked satisfactorily in any other way Ido not see why it should be done for mathematics and not for other subjects. I think, as far as my experience goes, that it is more desirable iv other subjects than in mathematics. 4241. Do you not think that classifying the different subjects independently tends to encourage boys to devote their time and attention almost exclusively to those subjects they care for ? —Tes; I think that is one of the drawbacks. That is one of the things which I have never encouraged in the school, and would always set my face against in a school of its size. 4242. And for ordinary school education, I suppose, you think it right that boys should study all their subjects nearly equally ? —-In a school of only a certain size I do. 4243. The Chairman.] "What are the relations of the headmaster of the Grammar School to the governing body ? —The relations have not been defined. 4244. But, in regard to important changes in the curriculum or time-table, you would think it your duty, or advisable, to consult the governing body ?—Tes ; but not on minor matters, unless I wished to be strengthened in my authority. 4245. What are the relations of the headmaster to the other teachers ?—The assistant masters who have been appointed here since I became headmaster have been appointed by me at the request of the governing body. 4240. Professor Cook.] Do you mean that the governing body request you to appoint a particular man to a mastership ? —The governing body have requested me to appoint a master, and I have done so. Those who have been appointed iv England have been appointed by the Eev. "W. C. Harris, at the request of the governing body. 4247. Professor Shand.] In the case of appointments made here, are you asked to select the master who is to be appointed ? —Tes ; but I submit the appointment to the Board, and it is made formally by them. 4248. The Chairman.] Have you the power to dismiss a master if you do not think him suitable? —I do not know whether I have the power or not, but I should not wish to have it. 4249. In the event of a master not being, in your opinion, suitable, what course would you adopt? —I should report the master to the governing body, and recommend his dismissal. 4250. How many of the masters were appointed at Home ?—The headmaster, and two of the assistant masters. 4251. How many would that leave who were appointed here ?—Six assistant masters, the drawingmaster, and the music-master.

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4252. Do you think that the relations existing between the headmaster and assistant masters, as at present carried out, work well in practice ? —Exceedingly well. 4253. Is there a minimum ago fixed for admission to the school ?—No. 4254. Is there any entrance examination ? —Tes. 4255. "What is its nature ? —Heading, writing, the four rules of arithmetic, and a tolerable acquaintance with the ordinary facts of English history and geography. 4256. What is the average age at which pupils enter the school r —A boy rarely enters under ten. Generally, I suppose, there are two or three boys in the school under ten. 4257. Is there a division of tho school into an upper and lower department?—Tes. 4258. "What would be the standard of acquirements for admission to the upper school ? —That a boy should be competent to do the work of the fourth form. The work of the fourth form varies slightly. 4259. Can you give us a general idea of what he would be expected to know in classics, mathematics, French, &c. ? —The work of the fourth form for the present term is tho Second Principia, Latin grammar, and easy Latin prose, Smith's Latin Principia. That is the standard for admission, because a boy would be placed in the fourth form, in the ordinary course of things, according to his classics. 42G0. Professor Cook.] Do they learn Greek in the fourth form ? —No ; Greek is commenced in the lower fifth. 4261. And a boy's admission to the upper school depends, practically, upon his attainments in Latin ? —Tes : that is to say, the school is classified according to classics—a boy is placed in his form according to his classics. 4262. The Chairman.] As a general rule, how many different subjects does a pupil study ?—Every boy learns divinity, English, mathematics, and science (either physics, botany, or chemistry). All above tho lowest form learn French and Latin. All above the fourth form learn Greek or German. Music and drawing are optional, and are taught out of school hours. 4263. How many hours per week does a boy attend school ?—Twenty-six. 4264. Professor Sale.] Are you speaking now of the actual class hours ? —Tes ; there are five hours a day for four days in the week, and three hours a day twice a week. 4265. Are any of those hours devoted to preparation ?—No. 4266. Do you think the time you have mentioned is a proper time for boys to be in school?—I think it is enough. 4267. Do you think it is too much ?—No, I do not think it is. 4268. The Chairman.] Is drawing taught as part of the school course ?—No. I mean, it is not taught in the twenty-six hours ; it is taught out of school hours, and paid for as an extra. 4269. How often in the week is it taught ?—I think at present it is taught four hours a week; but that would depend on the number of boys. French is taught as part of the ordinary course. 4270. Is there a library connected with the school for the use of the students ?—There is a boys' library, managed by the boys. 4271. Is it a library for educational purposes ? —No. All tho books that go into it pass through my hands. It consists of story-books, books of travel, and such like, and I suppose can hardly be considered a library for educational purposes. 4272. Professor Shand.] How many volumes might there be in the library ?—I could not say. There are a certain number bought every term, but boys are very destructive, and many get destroyed. It ia supported by the boys' subscriptions. There is a voluntary subscription of 4s. or 6s. throughout the school every term, and a certain amount of this fund goes to cricket, a certain amount to football, and a certain amount to the library. 4273. Then do I understand that the governing body does not maintain a library composed of books of reference which might be out of the reach of ordinary pupils ?—There is a library in connection with the College, to which the boys could have access if they wished, but they have no right to it, and it is not a school library. 4274. Dr. Hector.] Is it the property of the College ?—Tes ; it is a circulating library, open to subscribers, and I believe was very much used before the public library was opened. 4275. How many volumes does it contain? Is it a valuable library?—Tes, I believe it is. It is not kept up in the same way as it was formerly, but contains divinity and classical books which I believe are very valuable. A great many were presented to the College at the settlement of the province. 4276. The Chairman.] Is it made much use of by the masters and the students ?—Tes ; it is a good deal used by the masters, and by a few of the older boys. 4277. Is there a gymnasium attached to the school ? —No. 4278. Has the curriculum of the school been planned with the object of bringing it into relation with the University of New Zealand course?— Only so far as preparing boys for junior scholarships is concerned, 4279. Do you know whether any change was made in the curriculum in consequence of Christ's College becoming affiliated to the University ? —No change was made. 4280. Are there any respects in which the course of study has been arranged in deference to tho wishes of the parents, rather than in accordance with your owu views?—l should say not. Ido not mean to say that there are any matters which I think parents would like altered. Ido not wish it to be understood that I should not be disposed to listen to any proposals of parents as to anything they might wish altered. Ido not think any changes have been proposed. 4281. Do you think the staff is sufficient for the present number of pupils attending the school ? —I think that possibly a higher standard might be reached by some addition. 4282. How many of the staff are University graduates ?—Five. 4283. Out of how many teachers ? —Out of eleven, including the French master, the drawingmaster, and the singing-master.

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4284. "What is the number of pupils now on the roll of the school ?—lB9. 4285. Has any variation in the number taken place of late years, either in the way of increase or decrease ? —"Within the last five or six years the numbers have not varied very much. "When I first came, in 1871, there were 117, and the greatest number on the roll has been 200. 428 G. Could you give us any idea of the proportion between the numbers on the roll and the average daily attendance ? —I think a return has been furnished extending over the last five years. Last term, when there were 200, the average daily attendance was 190; and a term or two before that, when the number was 188, the average daily attendance was ISO. 4287. I suppose that the attendance is fully commensurate with the numbers on the roll ? —I thiuk so. 4288. Could you give us an approximate statement of the proportion of pupils that are drawn from the professional, trading, and operative classes respectively ? —No ; I could not give you any idea whatever. 4289. "What are the arrangements with respect to terms, vacations, aud occasional holidays ?— There are three terms in the year, of thirteen weeks each. There are three and a half weeks' holidays in May, three and a half weeks' in September, and six weeks' at Christmas. 4290. And how many occasional holidays ? —There is a half-holiday every "Wednesday and Saturday ; occasional whole holidays on such days as^Easter Monday, Good Friday, &c. ; an occasional halfholiday or whole holiday to commemorate any school success, or great event. 4291. Do the school buildings afford sufficient accommodation ?—There are certain improvements which, if we had funds for tho purpose, I should like to see carried out. The buildings are such as we can work fairly well with. 4292. Is there a sufficient allowance made by the governing body for procuring maps, models, diagrams, and scientific apparatus ? —I should wish to see it larger; there is no actual sum voted annually. I should be glad to see the governing body in a position to do more. 4293. Tou do not get an annual sum to keep up your supply of maps, &c. ?—No. Speaking from memory, I do not think any request I have made for maps or apparatus has ever been refused. 4294. What are the arrangements for the examination of the school? —At the end of the first term, and at the end of the second term, the school is examined by the masters iv such a way as I may arrange, and at the end of the third term examiners are appointed by the governing body, who examine such parts of the school as they think fit. Those parts that are not examined by the persons appointed by the governing body are examined iv the same way as is done at the end of the first and second terms —in such a manner as I may arrange. 4295. Are prizes awarded as the results of the examinations ? —Prizes are awarded according to the results of the third term's work, which are decided by a combination of the term's marks and the examination marks. They are reduced in such a way as to make the examination equal to the term's work, and the total decides a boy's place in his form. 4296. Professor Sale.] Has there been any difficulty in finding examiners to conduct the examination at the end of the third term ?—Tes, I should say great difficulty. 4297. Does that arise from tho absence-of persons experienced in examining, or from the want of funds to pay qualified examiners?—l do not think payment has ever been offered. I have nothing whatever to do with tho funds, and am not prepared to say whether, if the governors thought they could get examiners by paying them, they could not find the means. lam not aware that they have ever been given to understand that they could get examiners by offering payment. 4298. Have tho authorities been in the habit of appointing the same examiners year after year ? —■ They have been in the habit of appointing those whom they could get, as far as I know. If any stranger has been here who they thought would undertake examinations, they have always been very glad if they could obtain his services. I have been asked if I knew of anybody, or if there was any stranger who would be available. On one occasion there was a high wrangler here whom I happened to know, and he undertook the examination of the school in mathematics ; aud I think that is the only occasion on which there has been a thorough examination of the school in mathematics. 4299. Practically, I suppose, the work of examining has been undertaken by the fellows of the College themselves ? —Tes. They have a great difficulty in finding men, and when they cau get nobody outside the staff" of masters they conduct the examination themselves, as far as they are able. Speaking generally, the Dean of Christchurch, who is also sub-warden of the College, has acted as examiner in classics for some years past. 4300. Professor Shand.] Do you think it would be easier to obtain examiners unconnected with the College, if proper remuneration were offered ?—I have no reason whatever to believe that it would be easier—that is to say, unless there was some general scheme recognized by the University aud other bodies. I know of nobody who has refused to examine, who would have done so if he had been offered payment. 4301. The Chairman.] Have the authorities of the school ever availed themselves of the services of the professors of Canterbury College as examiners ? —When the professors came I suggested that they should be asked to oxamiue the school —Professors Brown, Cook, and Bickerton; and I believe they were asked to do so. I was not authorized to ask them ; I suggested that they should be asked, and I believe they were. 4302. And did they conduct the examination ? —They did not; they declined. 4303. Do any of the pupils of the Grammar School attend the lectures delivered at Canterbury College ? —Not in school hours. I believe some attend iv the evening, but Ido not know of my own knowledge. 4304. Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability of a general system of inspection and examination of secondary schools?—l am, and always have been, very strongly iv favour of some general scheme of inspection, and I should very much like to see it. 4305. Professor Cook.] Do you mean examination rather than inspection?— When I say inspection Ido mean examination. Ido not consider that what is called inspection is a thorough inspection 27—IL 1.

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without examination. I think inspection certainly includes examination. I should very much like to see a thorough inspection of Christ's College Grammar School: as to the details, that is another matter. But a general system of inspection for secondary schools I have always wished to see. 430 G. Under what authority and by whom do you think the inspection and examination should be conducted ? —I think the University. 4307. The Chairman.] "What punishments are in use at your school, and by whom are they inflicted ? —The headmaster is the only master who is allowed to inflict corporal punishment. There are other punishments, which all assistant masters use, such as learning by heart and writing a lesson, but nothing else that I am aware of. 4308. Do any of your pupils come from the public primary schools?—Tes. 4309. Could you tell us how many of the pupils at present attending your school have come from the primary schools ?—I think between twenty and thirty. 4310. Are there any scholarships from the primary schools, established by the Board of Education, which can be held at the Grammar School ? —We have at present, I believe, some boys who obtained Government scholarships, but I am not sure whether they are receiving their scholarships. 4311. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you any reason to suppose that ihe scholarships which the boys obtain are not paid to them?—No; but I am not aware whether they can be held at a grammar school which has not been inspected by a Government School Inspector. 4312. The Chairman.] Do you recollect whether the Bey. Mr. Andrew, who was appointed to inspect secondary schools, inspected your school within the last few years ? —I think Mr. Andrew was not appointed to inspect secondary schools, but to inspect the institutions affiliated to the University. 4313. In that capacity, did he inspect Christ's College Grammar School? —I think he did not. He inspected such part of it as was worked into what was called the Collegiate Union. In those days, before the establishment of Canterbury College, Christ's College, in conjunction with the Museum, carried on classes, or assisted the Canterbury College authorities to start it by lending their staff and their rooms, and doing whatever they could to further the interests of higher education. Mr. Andrew then came to inspect the Collegiate Union, and, in doing so, he inspected part of the Grammar School. But in those days it was not very clearly defined how far Christ's College was affiliated, and there was no great reason why it should be, seeing that it was merely a temporary measure to assist the authorities in making way for the institution of Canterbury College. Mr. Andrew inspected that part of the Grammar School which had anything to do with the Collegiate Union, but he did not inspect the Grammar School. As far as I know, his inspection consisted of being present when Mr. "Worthy took the sixth form in classics. I had evening classes at the time —elementary classes in mathematics —and Mr. Andrew came one evening while my class was going on; but he did not come into my room, or have anything to do with the mathematical school, because my classes happened to be quite distinct from the school. Mr. "Worthy was doing a certain amount of Collegiate Union work during the school hours. There happened to be no students from outside ; they were all boys in the sixth form. 4314. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou said just now that, in those days, it was not very well defined what part of Christ's College was affiliated. Is it well defined now ?—I should say exceedingly well. 4315. Eeferring to the University Calendar, I observe that the Grammar School Department is exhibited as a part of that which is affiliated. Do you understand that the Grammar School is affiliated ? —I do. 431 G. Professor Sale.] As a separate institution from the College ?—I do not quite understand the point of the questions. I consider, as a matter of fact, that at present the Grammar School is aft-Hated. If you wish to make two distinct bodies of them, I consider that the Grammar School is affiliated, and that the College is not; but I see no reason why Christ's College should not be affiliated as it stands. 4317. Be v. W. J. Habens.] So that, in your view, the state of things is exactly the reverse now of what it was at tho time of Mr. Andrew's visit ? —Hardly so ; because the Grammar School, the College, and the Museum were then working together. 4318. Professor Shand.] Are there any matriculated students in the Grammar School at present ? ■ —At the present moment there are none. AYe have never had at Christ's College Grammar School a matriculated student who was not a scholar. 4319. And at present you have no scholars, and consequently no matriculated students ?—No. 4320. The Chairman.] Could you tell us how many of your pupils have in former years taken University junior scholarships ? —Four junior scholarships have been taken by boys at Christ's College Grammar School. 4321. Professor Shand.] Eeferring again to the Education Board scholarships, do pupils from your school compete for these scholarships ?—They do. 4322. Are they often successful ?—Fairly successful. 4323. Could you tell us how many have been successful in the last two or three years ?—Sinco 1871 twenty scholarships have been taken. 4324. The Chairman.] Do you think that tho examination prescribed for the University junior scholarships is a suitable one? —I think the age is lower than it should be, and should prefer to see it eighteen instead of fifteen. 4325. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think fifteen is a suitable age for matriculation ?—I think no boy under fifteen should be a matriculated student; but I also think there are many boys of fifteen who could pass the matriculation examination who would do themselves and their country far more good if they remained at school. 4326. Dr. Hector.] Looking at the provision which has been made for secondary schools in New Zealand, do you think it would bo desirable to fix the age for matriculation at eighteen ? Do you think there is provision for carrying on an average boy's education until he is eighteen years of age — precedent to any University education ?—No ; 1 do not think it would be desirable to fix the age for

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matriculation at eighteen ; but I do think there is provision for carrying on an average boy's education until he is eighteen years of age. 4327. Then, you would have junior scholarships competed for by matriculated students—hy those who have had the benefit of three years' University education ? They would cease to be junior scholars then ?—What is at present called a junior scholarship is, I think, an excellent thing ; but I would call it something else, and give it in some other way. I do not think the present junior scholarship is advisable. Ido not think that a boy of fifteen, who gets a scholarship, should of necessity become a University student, and begin at that age what people call here " original research." I do not think an average boy of fifteen is the sort of boy, as a rule, who should commence original research. But I do not see why certain boys at fifteen should not matriculate. 4328. Up to what age do boys remain at Christ's College ? —I think that at the end of last term there were thirteen boys over eighteen. Wo have never had a boy over twenty; Ido not suppose I would allow a boy at that ago to remain at school. 4329. What is the usual age at which they leave—l mean those who reach what may be termed the highest standard in the school ? —The age of the sixth form, on leaving, is from sixteen to nineteen; the average ago would be, I suppose, seventeen or eighteen. 4330. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In the ease of boys whose friends intended that they should enjoy the advantages of University education, to what age would you like those boys to remain at school ?—I think it would depend, to a great extent, upon the boy's attainments, and also upon the life he was going to lead afterwards—whether he was to be under any sort of discipline, or thrown loose on tho town. It is a question on which, I think, no rule can be laid down: it depends, to a great extent, on the boy himself, and on his future. I should never advise a parent to send a boy to an English University under eighteen years of age. 4331. Dr. Hector.] If a boy is able to take a scholarship at fifteen, do you see any other reason, besides that of his not being, perhaps, so well looked after, for his not proceeding to a college course at that age ? —I do ; I think a great many boys who obtain junior scholarships have not sufficient attainments to do what some professors would consider they ought to do. 4332. Professor Shand.] Would not that apply with still greater force to those who pass the matriculation examination ?—Except that I imagine a scholar at once proceeds to read for honours, while I would look upon the ordinary matriculated student as one who was reading for the pass degree, which I think is a very different thing. 4333. If the minimum age were raised from fifteen to eighteen, would you be inclined also to raise the standard of the junior scholarship examination? —I should like to see what is called the junior scholarship given between the ages of fifteen and eighteen, in the same way,* and with a similar standard, and that the junior scholarship should be abolished. The present junior scholarship is an excellent thing, but I think it might be given to schools as an inducement, t The term " University scholarship " implies that a boy is to begin his University course. Ido not wish for a moment to pretend that a boy begins his University course at Christ's College Crrammar School. He has obtained a scholarship at fifteen, and his parents have preferred that he should remain under discipline ; and in two instances boys have proceeded to senior scholarships. I think the junior scholarships are excellent things to be given to boys, but I do not think it is necessary to have all the machinery which at present exists for the purpose. 4334. Professor Sale.] Tou wish to see them converted into exhibitions, tenable at school?—Tes, I do; especially whilst the Board of Education offers no scholarships which can be competed for by boys over thirteen years of age. 4335. Professor Shand.] Tou are aware that the Government has not prescribed any regulations for these Government scholarships —that the regulations are made by the local Education Boards, and that in some instances, as we have had it in evidence, sixteen is the minimum age for competition. Would it meet your views if the age of competition for these Government scholarships were increased here?—No, it would not; for this reason : that I should like to see secondary schools placed in some way under the University, which should have some control over them. I should like to see these scholarships given to the schools, to be awarded by the authorities as they might think fit, only on the schools obtaining a certain standard and satisfying the Inspector. 433 G. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Arc you aware that from candidates for Government scholarships under fourteen years of age —that is, tho oldest class of candidates —some knowledge of classics is required ? —Tes. 4337. Do you think that requirement ought to be extended in its application to scholarships in general, or to any other class of scholarships than the present ?—I thiuk it would be advisable, in the cause of higher education, for, certainly, some of the Government scholarships to include classics in their list of subjects at an earlier age than thirteen. W^hilst on this point,l maybe allowed to mention another matter in connection with Government scholarships. The amount of these scholarships is £40 per annum, I believe. I consider that except in certain cases the amount is larger than is necessary. I know that in many cases boys have had this £40 until the last scholarship has expired —that is, until they were sixteen ; they have left school and gone into business, and their education has cost them at most £1(3 a year : £20 a year would have been ample for the time. The other £20 might have been reserved for those cases where the boys were proceeding to higher education. 4338. Dr. Hector.] Would you propose to reduce the amount, or to reserve a portion, to be paid at a later period of the studies ? —I do not think I should like to see the amount reduced, because of course there are boys whose education costs more than £40, and they are very often boys who proceed to a University course. 4339. The Chairman.] Do you think that the University of New Zealand, as it now exists, has assumed the form best suited to the circumstances of the colony ? —ln many respects I think it has. __ * The witness wishes to insert the words " or by the school authorities." —Sec. R. Com. t The witness wishes to substitute the words " by the school authorities " for the words " to schools as an inducement," —Sec. R. Com.

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4340. Professor Sale.] Do you see any real value attaching to affiliation ia the case of such a school as Christ's College Grammar School ?—Very great value indeed, as long as the junior scholarships are fixed at the ago of fifteen; no value whatever, if the age were made eighteen. 4341. Then the value of affiliation consists, at preseut, simply in enabling you to retain junior (scholars beyond the age of fifteen ? —ln such cases wliero the parents do not wish the boys to leave school, and at the same time would be thankful for assistance in the way of a scholarship. 4342. If the ago for obtaining junior scholarships were raised, would you wish to see Christ's College Grammar School disaffiliated ?—Certainly. 4343. Dr. Hector.] Theu you would wish that the Grammar School should cease to have any connection with the University ?—-I should be very sorry to see that, because, as I have already said, I wish to see the University have some control over the school. 4344. What advantage, then, would you expect to arise from its being disaffiliated ? —The only advantage, I think, which would arise from its being disaffiliated, would be the establishment, possibly, of a better feeling between what havo been called the rival institutions iv Christchurch. 4345. Do any of the pupils from the Grammar School go un for the Civil Service examinations ? —Occasionally. 4346. Generally at what age ?—I am not in a position to say. 4347. Are they junior or senior boys? Is it when they are leaving that they go up for the Civil Service examination?— Yes, on leaving; but'they would not generally ba boys very high in the school. 4348. Tou are aware that the matriculation examination will now be similar to the senior Civil Service, and I ask the question with the view of discovering at what stage of your school you would be ablo to furnish pupils for the matriculation examination ? —I do not think that very many of our boys have gone in for the Civil Service examinations: in fact, there is some difficulty in getting tho regulations. 4349. Professor Shand.] From what you have said, I gather that it would suit your views if there were certain scholarships instituted by the University, and examined for by the University, which should be tenable at secondary schools ?—Tes. That is my view.* 4350. Of course tho mere matter of name is nothing ?—Exactly; but still, although the University examined them, I would havo no confusion whatever between a boy at school aud an undergraduate. 4351. Then, if there were such scholarships, tenable at secondary schools only, and not open to University students, but only tenable by unmatriculated students, what, in your opinion, would be the proper age for competition —that is, for them to remain at school ? —That, I think, would depend on the primary-school or Government scholarships; I would make the age fit in with those scholarships, so that there should be no gap. I would have the University step in where the Government scholarships cease—at sixteen.f There are only two scholarships given each year in Canterbury in which classics are included. 4352. Then, finally, to complete the whole system, you would have University scholarships proper to be competed for not earlier than eighteen years of age ?—Tes. Professor J. vo_r Haast, Ph.D., F. 8.5., was sworn and examined. 4353. The Chairman.] Tou are one of the professors in Canterbury College ? —Tes. 4354. AVhat are the subjects ?—Geology. I also teach mineralogy at the present time. 4355. And you are connected with the Museum ? —I am Director of the Museum. 4356. How long have you held these positions ?—I have been Director of the Canterbury Museum since 1867, and I was appointed Professor of Geology in the Canterbury College in 1876. 4357. Are there many students attending your lectures in geology? —There have been, on an average, three or four. Not being a compulsory subject, geology is, of course, only taken by those who have an inclination for it. 4358. Do you think the number you have mentioned is a reasonable number to expect in a community like Christchurch ? —I think it is a fair one, considering that the subject is not a compulsory one. 4359. Are any fees charged for attendance at these lectures ?—The fee is one guinea per term. 4360. Professor Shand.] And the lectures occupy how many hours per week ? —Pour hours —two hours for the junior and two hours for the senior. 4361. The Chairman.] Have any of your students obtained University scholarships ?—No, none of them have gone in for scholarships ; but this year there are two who have selected geology as one of the subjects of their examination for the B.A. degree. 4362. Do these students in geology also attend the lectures in arts —classics and mathematics ? — Tes, both of them do. 4363. Dr. Hector.] They take geology as part of their University course ? —Tes. 4364. Do you give any tuition in the field —practical geology ?— Yes ; but, unfortunately, hitherto practical work has not been compulsory, and it has been very much neglected. 4365. The Chairman.] Is there any information which you could aii'ord the Commission with regard to the geological lectures in Canterbury College ? —I think that, iv connection with a school of mines, the geological lectures might be used much more than they have hitherto been. I suppose there would be only one school of mines for the colony, and tho different colleges could prepare the students for the mining school to the extent of only rendering it necessary for them to remain there for eighteen months or a year, instead of three years: they could be well grounded in geology and mineralogy before going to the practical course. * The writer wishes to substitute the following: " Yes, either examined for by the University or tho school authorities : that is my view."—Sec. E. Coir. t The wituess wishes to substitute for " sixteen " tho words " fourteen or fifteen."—Sec. R. Com.

Mr. C. C. Corfe. April 16,1879.

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4366. Dr. Hector.] Would the same apply to the School of Agriculture?—Tes. The geological lectures ought to be delivered at the School of Agriculture ; because it has been proved, both in Germany and Austria, where agricultural schools have done a wonderful amount of work, that it is best to keep the students at tho school and not let them go to a college ; aud the professors always lecture at the school. Ido not think that a college would be of any use to an agricultural school, unless that tho professors could lecture there. 4367. How far would it be necessary for your course of geological lectures to have a museum at the Agricultural School ? —lt would be of tho utmost importance, because without specimens you could do nothing. For the purpose of the lectures you want a complete set of specimens, especially those connected with agriculture—rocks, for instance, and minerals which, when decomposed as soil, are of chemical value. 4368. Do I understand that, in your opinion, the course of lectures which you give in the College would not serve for the purposes of the Agricultural School ? —No; unless arrangements were made for the students to attend the College. 4369. If lectures were given at the Agricultural School, would it not be necessary to have a second set of specimens there ? —They can easily be obtained. Por the last three years, since the Agricultural School started, I havo reserved specimens, in order that a museum could be started in case of necessity, and there is material to furnish such a museum. 4370. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the arrangement by which the Museum is a dependency of Canterbury College is a good one ?—I think that in many respects it is, and that in some it is not. A museum which is only an appendage to a college is liable to be somewhat neglected ; and, owing to there being several other institutions attached to Canterbury College, that has been the case in instances. On two occasions we could not get a meeting of the Museum committee for three months—from 21st February to 13th June, 1878; and from 11th October, 1878, to 24th February, 1879 —as there were so many other matters being attended to. 4371. Dr. Hector.] Tou mean you could not get accountspassed? —Tes, and for other important matters. , 4372. Professor Shand.] Have the funds allowed you been sufficient for maintaining the Museum ? Tes, of course with management. The Canterbury Museum has now grown up to be an institution of some size. 4373. Tou have no reason to complain in that respect ?—Not at all. What I complain of is, that the present arrangements are such that the Director of the Museum has no seat on the Board or on the Committee, and that decisions are arrived at without his advice being asked, aud resolutions sent to him which sometimes are detrimental to the interests of the Museum. 4374. And you think the Director ought to have a seat on the governing Board of the Museum ? —In all similar institutions, both in America and on the Continent, tho Director is always a member of the managing Board. 4375. Wo have been informed that, when the trust under which the Museum was established was first instituted, the intention was to have a school of technical science combined with the Museum: has that been given effect to in any way ? —Not yet. 4376. Do you know if it is the intention of the governing body to give effect to it ? —I suppose it is, because a portion of the Museum funds, beginning with the lst of January of this year, is, I believe, to be devoted to college purposes ; another portion will go to the Public Library. 4377. That is with the view of giving effect to this provision? —Tes. 4378. Dr. Hector.] Before tho establishment of Canterbury College, was there not an institution called the Collegiate Union, and were there not technical lectures given iv connection with it ?—Tes. 4379. Was not that in order to carry out the intention of the Ordinance ? —Tes. 4380. But since the College was instituted these lectures have ceased ?—Tes; the lectures of Canterbury College have taken their place. 4381. Professor Shand.] In forming the collections contained in the Museum has this purpose been kept in mind ?—Tes ; it was alwaj-s kept in view that technical science might be taught there. 4382. And in what form is it intended to provide instruction in technical science? —I am not on the Board, and do not know what the intentions of that body are. However, I think Canterbury College, so far, provides for that. 4383. But, in making the collections with this view, you must have had some idea in your mind as to what branches would be taught ? —I always had the impression that a school of technical science would be instituted as in Germany, where mining, engineering, mechanical engineering, and manufactures are taught. That view was in my mind when the Bill was drawn, and when, at that time, I gave the necessary information to the Provincial Secretary. 4384. But the only thing that is being done now is to provide lectures in chemistry and physics ? —Tes ; but I believe it is the intention, from the lst of January next year, when the higher rent comes in, to use a part of tho funds that will be available for that purpose. 4385. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In addition to the service rendered to tho cause of science by the exhibition of specimens, what further service does the Museum render to that cause ?—lt is accessible to the students in zoology, mineralogy, geology, and chemistry, and is consulted on all subjects by a great number of people not connected with Canterbury College. 4386. Professor Sale.] Tou are acquainted with some of the schools of agriculture in Germany ? —Tes. 4387. Are you aware whether the establishment of these schools has led to any valuable practical result in improving the agriculture of the country ? —Very much so indeed. A student of an agricultural college, who holds a first-class certificate, is very much preferred as manager of an estate. The principal agricultural school, Hohenheim, in Germany, is divided into two portions —an agricultural college and an agricultural school. The former is like a University, and students are only admitted who have passed an examination, as in the case of a University. The agricultural school is composed of the best young men from different parts of tho country —farmers' sons, who go there for three

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years, and pass an examination each year in other branches, as well as agriculture. These young men, on completing their course, go back to their villages, and the effect of this system has been to produce a remarkable improvement in the mode of farming; for those persons who would not listen to booklearning became convinced of the advantages of improved modes of farming by seeing the practical results of the systems introduced by these young men from the agricultural schools. I observed, iv oue of the most recent reports on the subject, that an official reporter of the Government of Wurtemberg stated that it was easy to pick out the villages which had felt the influence of the young men from the agricultural schools. 4388. Tou spoke of a higher division, called an agricultural college : at what ago do students usually enter that institution?—-I think at about eighteen—not under that age. 4389. And are any other studios pursued there besides those which are connected with agriculture proper ?—Yes ; forestry, chemistry, and veterinary surgery are taught, and the manufacture of all kinds of agricultural engines and products, such for example as beet-root sugar. 4390. Is there anything like a liberal education ?— There are German and one or two modern languages, algebra, geometry, land-surveying, and in some of the schools they even have religious instruction. 4391. Then a student in an agricultural college would not require to receive any further University training ?—No. When the student goes to the agricultural college he passes a matriculation examination, the same as a student does when he enters a German University; then he has done with classics and mathematics as far as they go. It is the same as in the case of a medical student, who, when he leaves the gymnasium or grammar school, passes his matriculation examination, and is afterwards examined in medicine and nothing else. 4392. Do the students from the agricultural school frequently proceed to the agricultural college ? —No, hardly ever. They are two different classes. The students in the agricultural school are sons of farmers, who will afterwards bo practical farmers, and superintend their own farms ; while the others are the sons of men with large properties, and who want to enter the profession of agriculture with a view to becoming owners and managers of large estates. 4393. Do you think that an agricultural institution in New Zealand should attempt to combine both those kinds of training ? —I think it should take a middle course between both, similar to some of the schools in Austria and Prussia. 4394. Dr. Hector.] In an institution like Canterbury College, which possesses a museum, and has systematic lectures in chemistry, geology, mathematics, and, I presume, mechanics, what other course of lectures would bo necessary to make a mining school ? —-You would want a lecturer on mining : then the whole course would be complete. 4395. Would it be necessary to have practical instruction in mining ?—Yes; if the system is adopted which obtains in Germany. 4396. Of course it would be necessary to visit some part of the colony where mines are situated ? —Yes. 4397. "Would it be any advantage to have the mining school established in a mining district which afforded the greatest facilities for seeing operations, and where there was a great variety of mining ?— Of course that would be the best plan; although I believe that where the mines are in different directions it would be just as useful to have the school of mines in a central situation. 4398. "Would it be more advantageous, merely for geographical reasons, to have the mining school iv the centre of the country, or in a district where there was the greatest variety of practical mining to be seen? —Of course the latter would be, in most respects, the most useful, although, to refer again to Germany, they have begun there to have schools of mines in the different centres of population. For instance, a school of mines has been started at Berlin, aud there are no mines anywhere in the neighbourhood. 4399. But the great mining schools of Germany, which have been so famous, have been in places where mines existed ? —Yes. 4400. From your knowledge of New Zealand, in what part do you thiuk you would find the greatest variety in mining, supposing all the indications at present known were developed ? —ln some parts of the west coast of the South Island. 4401. In the northern part of the West Coast —the north-west district of Nelson, —or further south? —Somewhere in the Grey Valley. I consider that some parts of Otago possess the same advantages. 4402. Professor Shand.] In the case of the School of Mines at Berlin, and also the Eoyal School of Mines of London, I suppose provision is made for the students getting practical instruction before they go up to the Mining School; or is that done after they have finished, or in the intervals of study ? —I do not know much about the School of Mines in London, but iv Germany the work goes hand in hand. In the case of schools of mines not situated in a mining centre, the knowledge of the practical work has to be obtained elsewhere. But, in every case, as the student advauces, examinations have to be passed, and, before he is allowed to enter the Government service, he has to show that he is acquainted with the science of mining. 4402 a. But I mean, it is quite possible for a student to get this practical knowledge in the intervals of the terms during which he acquires his theoretical knowledge. A student may attend lectures for three months, or six months, and be engaged in practical mining for other six months. Is not that possible ? —Yes. But Ido not think I made myself clear. The student leaves such mining school as soon as he becomes a practicant. That is his preliminary education. He passes an examination to prove that he kuows the whole process of mining theoretically. 4403. And he acquires his practical knowledge after leaving the mining school ?—Yes. 4404. Dr. Hector.] But is it not equally necessary in a person learning to be a mining manager that he should learn the practical art of mining by assisting to conduct mining, iv the same way that a student in an agricultural school would work on a model farm? You have already told us that you think it is better that geology aud the other branches of science appertaining to agriculture should be

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learnt at the farm. Well, in tho same way, would it not be better for the practical application of science in mining to be learnt at the mines ?—Tes, I fully agree with you, if the same system were to obtain here as in Germany. If the mines hero were under local inspection, as is the case in Germany, where the principal mining work is done under the eye of the Government, a mining manager, before getting a certificate, would have to show that he possessed a thorough knowledge of practical work. 4405. Professor Shand.] Tou told us that, if a mining school were established in connection with Canterbury College, all that would be necessary would be to obtain a single additional lecturer —a lecturer on the technical branches of mining. If, on the other hand, it were determined to establish a school of mines in one of the mining districts, would it not be necessary to appoint a large number of lecturers ?—Of course ; and that would make the school very much more expensive. That is what I pointed out before, when I said that if one school of mines were established it would be the the best plan to advance the students to a certain point where the practical work of mining would begin. 440 G. Dr. Hector.] Do you think mining schools have any necessary connection with a University ?—I do not think so. 4407. Do you think agricultural schools have any necessary connection with a University ? —No. 4408. Are such technical schools in Germany connected with tho University?— Not connected with the University, but under the Minister of Education. 4409. But as a step towards obtaining such schools it might bo desirable to utilize the University appliances for instruction ? —Tes ; I think it would be desirable if the different colleges could spare some of their time to devote towards advancing those institutions, and if the services of the professors could be utilized in that direction. 4410. The Chairman.] Is there any connection between tho Public Library and the Canterbury Museum ? —No. 4411. Is there a special library composed of scientific publications for the exclusive use of the Museum? —Tes; there is a library which we are gradually collecting for museum purposes, and for the use of students. 4412. Professor Shand.] How many volumes might it contain ? —About 800. 4413. And they are chiefly works bearing on natural history ? —Natural history, geology, palaeontology, and other scientific subjects. 4414. The Chairman.] With regard to the University of New Zealand, do you think that as it now exists it has assumed the form best suited to the circumstances of the colony ? —Not exactly, if all the different grammar schools are to remain affiliated. My idea would be that there should be four colleges, which should form the University of New Zealand ; that the professors or the governing bodies of these colleges should constitute the Senate ; and that all the work in connection with the University —examination papers and so on —should be done in this country, because I think there are men in In ew Zealand competent to perform the work of examiners.

Prof.J.ronSaast. April 16, 1879.

Thursday, 17th Apeil, 1879. Present: Mr. G-. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E,, in the chair. Professor Brown, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. AY". J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand. Dr. Hector, Mr. E. C. J. Stevens, M.H.E., was sworn and examined. 4415. The Chairman.] Tou are one of the governors of Canterbury College? —Tes. 4416. How long have you held that position ?—Since November, 1875. 4417. Were you not one of the governors at the time of the foundation of the College ?—Mo. 4418. Does Canterbury College, in your opinion, give that degree of University education that the circumstances of the place require?— Speaking generally, I think it does. 4419. Have you any connection with Christ's College?— None whatever. 4420. Have you ever had any connection with that institution, either as a governor or otherwise ? —No, save an agency connection many years ago. 4421. Do you know whether Canterbury College and Christ's College work harmoniously together in the cause of education, or whether any jealousy exists between the two establishments? —I am not aware of any want of harmony. They appear to me to work quite independently of each other. Sitting on the Canterbury Board, I have never been made aware of any conflict; they seem to me to be perfectly independent of each other in every respect. 4422. I understand that the present mode of appointing the governors of Canterbury College is by the system of co-optation. Do you think that is the most advisable method?—l think if we were going to begin again, and to found an institution of this kind, that, probably, would not be the mode which would recommend itself to the founders. 4423. Could you suggest any mode preferable to that which at present exists ? —I do not know that I should be prepared to make any recommendation. It has appeared to me that, though the thing may work very well, yet there is hardly sufficient connection with the public. There are very large endowments, and the whole of the land and the whole of the money are public property; there are no private endowments or anything of that kind, and it strikes me that it is doubtful whether, in the long run, the present constitution of the governing body will be satisfactory to the public. The public depend for their knowledge of the working of this College, in a general way, upon what they may gather from the newspaper reports of our meetings ; and I doubt whether that will always be deemed satisfactory. Of course lam aware that a report is made to the Governor —I think as Visitor.

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4424. Are the Press admitted to the meetings of the Board ?—Yes. I am bound to say, however, that when it is thought advisable we go into committee, and then the report ceases. Of course it is open to any governor to object to going into committee, and to move that we remain in open Board. 4425. Are the reporters excluded when the governors go into committee ?—The reporting ceases when the Board is in committee : that is always the practice, and it is the same with the Board of Education, and all these institutions. It is, of course, necessary, to some extent, because otherwise the reports would be so voluminous; sometimes the Canterbury College Board continues its sitting from 11 o'clock in the morning until the evening. 442 G. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that, if the results arrived at by the Board were furnished to the newspapers from day to day, that would, not achieve the same good result as allowing reporters to be present —if an authorized report were furnished ?—lt would entail some expense. 4427. Would not copies of the minutes be sufficient ? I mean, are the public interested in anything more than the results arrived at by the Board? —I do not suppose they are ; but I think it is very likely they may wish to know more about the proceedings as time goes on —the institution is a comparatively new one. Considering the large amount of public property involved, and the extent to which the public are concerned in the institution, I doubt whether it has received, sufficient publicity, or, at all events, that the public are as closely connected with it as they ought to be. 4428. Professor Shand.] Is any report furnished to the Minister of Education as to the proceedings of the College ? —I do not think, speaking from memory, that there is a report furnished to the Minister, but to the Governor. I cannot say positively whether we are bound to report to the Education Department or not. 4429. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it would bo advisable to determine by legislation that a full annual report of the working of the institution should be given to the Government of the colony ? —Yes, I should think so, as the institution is of such a public nature, assuming that we have not to report already. 4430. I understand you do not think that the fact of the Governor of the colony being the Visitor, aud consequently having the right to make inquiries, is a sufficient mark of the rights which the public have with regard to the institution ? —I hardly think so. 4431. Professor Sale.] Mr. Brown, in his evidence, suggested a scheme for the constitution of the governing body of Canterbury College, according to which some of the members would be appointed by the Governor, some by the University of New Zealand, some by the professors of the College, and the remainder by the existing governors. "Would you approve of such a scheme as that, and do you think it would give that sort of public interest in the institution which you desire to see ? I may say, with regard to vacancies, that the Governor, the University, the professors, and the body composed, of tho remaining members of the existing Board, would fill up their respective vacancies ? —As I understand the position, under section 18 of the Ordinance, all vacancies are to be filled up by graduates of the College when there are as many as thirty graduates. That arrangement seems to me less satisfactory than the existing _or co-optative one. As regards the constitution mentioned in the question, I think that it would be an improvement on the one now in operation, in two particulars : first, because, if I understand it rightly, the Government of the colony would have a direct voice in the appointment of a part, at least, of the governing body of an institution wholly maintained by the public funds ; and secondly, because tho professors of the College would be directly represented- —a matter of importance, in my opinion, inasmuch as such representation would tend, to the information of the governing body on the educational working of the institution. As regards the nomination of members by the New Zealand University I w*ould rather not express an opinion, in the absence of any knowledge as to what form the constitution of that University is likely permanently to take. I should like to say generally that I dare say the present system may work well enough for a time, but that sooner or later some change in the constitution will be required. 4432. The Chairman.] Have you given any consideration to the subject of the establishment of a medical school in Christchurch ?—Tes ; I have thought a good deal about it, and I have been concerned in the steps which have been taken towards that object, so far as they have gone. 4433. "What has been done with the view of establishing a medical school here? —There was an Ordinance of the Provincial Council under whicli a medical school was created, and some time ago —to make a long story short —we contrived to get that Medical School recognized as part of Canterbury College. Prior to that, appointments had. been made of lecturers—a certain number of lectureships were established, I think by the authority of the Superintendent; but since then nothing has been done of a practical kind, simply from want of funds. 4434. If a medical school were established here, do you think there would be a sufficient number of pupils to keep it up ? —I think so. A short time ago, when we were in hopes of beginning, we knew of eight young men who were prepared to commence studying regularly as medical students ; and we have reason to believe that we could obtain quite that number if we started now ; but we are unable to do so owing to want of funds. Last year we got an endowment of 5,000 acres of Crown land, which has only just been surveyed, and which comprises all the endowment we possess at present for the purpose ; and we have no expectation that, for a great man)* years to come, it will produce anything like sufficient funds to enable us to carry on the Medical School in an effective manner. We have prepared estimates of what such an institution would cost. 4435. Dr. Hector.] "Was it contemplated to give a portion of the medical course of study required for obtaining a degree elsewhere? —I think that was the intention at first; but perhaps the more ambitious amongst us hoped that it would be possible to complete the course of study here. But a great deal, and, in fact, everything, would depend upon two considerations —namely, whether we had sufficient funds to pay lecturers, and so on; aud whether the hospital would be availablo for purposes of instruction. 4436. But, in the meantime, steps have been taken towards commencing a course of study at Can-

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terbury College. "What prospect would these students have of the time which they devote to medical studies in the College not being thrown away in regard to their obtaining a degree ?—That point has been, I think, considered ; but I cannot say in what way it was settled. Of course, if it were not fully provided for it would be useless to go on. 4437. Professor Cook.] I understood you to say that the eight young men to whom you referred would have become students if the school had been organized—not that they are now studying ? —They would have begun to study if wo had had the means of giving effect to the scheme. 4438. Dr. Hector.] 1 thought an arrangement had been made with Canterbury College for utilizing certain lectures, and that the reserve which you spoke of had been surveyed, and would bring in revenue?—Tes; and I said that revenue would not be nearly sufficient. I may say the school is estimated to cost about £2,000 a year altogether. The revenue from the land will not nearly approach that sum, and cannot possibly do so for many years, unless some extraordinary change takes place. 4439. Is it not worth £2 an acre?— But it would not fetch £1,000 a year rent: at least, if it did it would be very well let. 4440. Is there power to convert the reserve into money ?—No ; I think we should want an Act. 4441. Has it been proposed to get such an Act ?—No; we have only just got the land. 4442. Professor Shand.] Was it proposed to have any medical professors whose whole time should be given to medical instruction? —That has not been definitely settled, because everything is in such a very sketchy condition ; but we did think it would be advisable to have a professor of biology in the College, instead of a lecturer as at present, and that he would probably do nothing else, and that his services would be very valuable to the Medical School. But the other lectureships were to bo filled up by persons carrying on practice. 4443. Professor Sate.] You said you anticipated that the annual cost of the institution would be £2,000 ?—Yes ; inclusive of everything. 4444. Can you state in what way that will be expended ?—ln payment to lecturers, and other necessary expenses. It was, I think, arranged that there should be sixteen lectureships distributed amongst eleven lecturers. 4445. Tou said you had hoped to start the Medical School last year, but that your funds were scarcely sufficient ?—We applied to the Canterbury College to assist us with money, and their inability to do so caused matters to stop for the time being. 4146. And they are now able to supply funds for the purpose?—No, they are not. 4447. Then how has the position been altered ? —lt has not been altered at all, except that we now have 5,000 acres of laud, which someday will produce something. The Medical School has never been in existence except on paper; and it has never had anything at all except the 5,000 acres which it has recently obtained. 4448. The Chairman.] In the absence of a medical school to enable them to learn the profession, did the eight students whom you have mentioned go Home for the purpose, or have they abandoned it altogether ? —I think some of them have gone to England ; but, of course, that involves inconvenience and very great expense. 4449. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know if any of those intending students are attending lectures at Canterbury College, and still waiting in the hope of the establishment of a medical school ?—I am not sure about that; but I rather think most of them have got tired of waiting. 4150. The Chairman.] From your general knowledge, do you think the number of patients in the hospital would be sufficient to afford the means of instruction in connection with a medical school at Christchurch ?—I am hardly competent to express an opinion on that point; but the hospital contains 120 beds, which number, I believe, is considered sufficient in the case of provincial hospitals in England and other places. But the main point I should like to bring out is this : that unless the Medical School had the entree to the hospital for the usual purposes of a medical school it would break down absolutely, and could not be carried on with any hope of success. 4451. Do you think it would be advisable to establish more than one medical school for the Colony of New Zealand ? —As far as a layman can judge I should think it would ; for this reason : that, as far as expense is concerned, a student might just as well be sent out of the country as to a place some hundreds of miles distant from his home. 4452. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What are the prospects of any connection between the Medical School and the hospital ?—A great deal, I suppose, would depend upon the form which the hospital management ultimately took. At present, the hospital management in Christchurch, as well as in a good many other places in the colony, is in what is understood to be a temporary position. The hospital is administered by a Board nominated by the Government; and the Government have repeatedly Baid that it is only a temporary arrangement until legislation can be obtained. 4453. Then, at present, the consent both of the Government and of the Board which manages the hospital would be required before the Medical School could avail itself of the institution as a place of instruction ?—I think, without speaking positively, that within the last few weeks the Board have obtained more power with regard to medical matters inside the hospital, aud probably they could make the arrangement; but, considering that they are only supposed to be temporarily in charge, pending legislation, I should think they would probably seek the sanction of the Government before anything was done. 4454. The Chairman.] Do I understand that you are of opinion that there ought to be three or four medical schools established throughout New Zealand rather than only one school for the whole colony ? —The question of whether there would be one or more schools would probably depend upon the number of students that could be obtained. I may say that a short time ago I wanted to get a young man educated for the medical profession, aud I found it did not cost more to obtain such education at King's College than it would if the student were sent to a medical school, say, in Wellington, or any other part of New Zealand. The cost is about £130 or £140 a year, and I imagine it could not be less anywhere. Considering this practical fact, I cannot see that, if we are to provide for medical instruction 28-H. 1.

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■. at all, any saving will be effected by having only one school, except to those who happen to live in the locality in which it is established. 4455. Dr. Hector.] If medical degrees conferred in the colony were not to be recognized outside the colony as giving the right to practise, do you think advisable that they should be granted ? Do you think it would injure a young man to give him a degree that only had a limited application?—l think that, if he could not practise outside of his own colony, it would be better, if he wanted to get any recognition at all, that he should obtain his education elsewhere, where his degree would have a more extended application. 4456. The Chairman.] In the event of a medical school being established, do you think it should give a complete medical education, or only a partial education, to be supplemented afterwards by instruction to be given in England ?—I suppose it would give a man a better standing if he only went through a portion of his course of study in the colony ; but much would depend, I imagine, upon the degree of proficiency to which a student could attain in the colony. 4457. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is it likely that, if a medical school were established in connection with Canterbury College, any members of the Board of Governors would be also paid lecturers? —I do not know whether they would or not. A governor may cease to be a member of the Board any day. I suppose that if a governor wanted to take a lecturership, and there was an expression of opinion on the part of the Board that he should not hold the two positions, he would probably resign one or the other. 4458. What is your opinion as to the desirability of a person holding a seat on the Board of Governors being also in receipt of a stipend as lecturer? —I suppose that as a general rule it would be considered objectionable. 4459. Would you be in favour of any modification of the constitution of the Board that would enable those in receipt of payment from the Board to be members of that body, subject to certain restrictions as to the questions on which they might vote ? —I have not considered that point; but, as you put it, it seems to me that by that provision the Board would be simply weakened on certain questions. There might be good reasons for it, but it is obvious that there would be less voting power on the Board on certain questions. 4460. Do you not think the Board might be strengthened in some respects by the presence of some who were in receipt of payment from the Board—professors, for instance ?—No doubt their knowledge and experience would be of great value to the Board on many occasions ; but, as you are aware, there is a general objection to a person being on a Board from whose funds he draws his remuneration. It is very likely that, under certain conditions, the arrangement you speak of might be very valuable; but on the other hand, as I have already pointed out, the strength of the Board on particular questions would be reduced if the voting-power of those members were limited. 4461. Do you think the difficulty might be got over by delegating all financial questions to a Board of Trustees specially charged with the duty of attending to money matters ?—I doubt whether an advantage would be gained by that. I think, if you decide that professors should sit on the Board as governors, and not have full voting-power, you had better leave the rest of the Board to settle the finance, and bar the professors from dealing with that question : then you would get a Board of Trustees in a more simple form. I think it is very objectionable to have trustees of an institution apart from the managing body where it can be avoided; it leads to great complication, and seems to me to be perfectly useless. 4462. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it would be advantageous to have a body of trustees for the whole colony to administer all educational funds, and to look after the income from investments?—As far as lam able to judge, at the first blush, Ido not see any advantage in such a plau. With regard to endowments and investments, local knowledge is the great point. 4463. But I presume you do not mean that any circumstances could alter the legal restrictions that surround endowments? Local knowledge could have no bearing on those?—No; but the trustees would have the administration of the property. 4464. The managing and local Board would have the administration of the revenue ?—Tes, and of the lands too ; they would have to say how the lands were to be let or sold, and so on. I think the local management ought certainly to have that power, if the property is to be turned to the best account. 4465. The Chairman.] Have you any knowledge as to how Christ's College has obtained endowments ? —I have a sort of general acquaintance with some of the endowments, but I think it is all a matter of record. 4466. Has the institution, so far as you know, been endowed out of the public estate, or by private donations ?—As far as I remember, the endowments were for the most part made by private individuals. lam not sure whether there were any of a public nature. There is the Jackson Trust Estate, which is chargeable with certain things, such as a professorship of history; and I think there are some theological scholarships. 4467. These were private donations ?—I believe they were, but I could not be certain. The Somes Estate, I happen to know, was purchased by Mrs. Somes, widow of Mr. Somes, who was chairman of the New Zealand Company ;it was a land order, and the property* is in Lyttelton —a towu section and a rural section. I only know, in a general way, that there were some private endowments. I repeat, however, that I have no official knowledge of Christ's College, and that I have no doubt there is documentary evidence of all its endowments. 4468. Tou are familiar with the New Zealand University system of education : do you think that system is the most suitable one for the requirements of the colony—l mean with regard to the University being only an examining body ?—So far as I am able to judge, that is, at all events for the present, the best method. lam not aware that it can be improved upon. 4469. I understand there is a proposal to establish an agricultural school in this neighbourhood. Do you think the time has arrived when such a school should be established ? —Tes ; I think it is very important that an agricultural school should be established, and with as little delay as possible. We are establishing it now.

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4470. Do you know what endowments have been made?—l think 100,000 acres were granted for the express purpose of founding a school of agriculture; they were Crown lands, which.were capable of being sold, and a large portion has been sold. . 4471. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the proceeds arising from these lands are in excess of the requirements of the Agricultural School or not ?—I do not think they are in excess at present. They may ultimately be in excess of the requirements for working the farm ; but that will depend very much upon how the establishment is worked. If an expensive course of experiments were continually undertaken, a great deal of money would be required ; but, if the farm is to be worked with a view to its paying to a reasonable extent, probably sooner or later the income will be found to be in excess of the wants. But at present, in consequence of the cost of building and stocking the farm, the income is not excessive, nor will it be for some three or four years. I think it will probably be found that our income has been anticipated for three or four years. At the end of that time we shall have got the institution into working order, and whether we shall have too much money or not will depend upon what system is adopted. "While on this subject, I might perhaps be permitted to say I think the Agricultural School might very properly contribute to a greater extent towards certain other branches of the Canterbury College. I think for instance that, in addition to the £500 a year which is taken on general account, it might contribute towards a professorship of biology. It will derive a great deal of benefit from the Professor of Chemistry, some benefit from the Professor of Geology, and also from the biological department, and from the Museum. 4472. Dr. Sector.'] In your opinion would it be necessary to duplicate the Chairs of chemistry and science generally, and to have a second lectureship at the Agricultural School?—I certainly do not think so. A Director with a knowledge of chemistry would probably be able to undertake a good deal of the laboratory work and so on; but I do not think it would be advisable to have a complete staff of professors at the School of Agriculture, as the distance from the College is so short. 4473. Professor Cook.~\ Then, in that case, do you think the Agricultural School might make a more liberal contribution than it does towards certain Chairs in the College ?—I think it might very fairly do so. I think, for instance, that if there was a Chair of engineering it might contribute towards that. An estimate might be made, and a fair contribution taken, as in the case of the £500 a year. 4174. Do you think it possible for the governors to make that arrangement now, under the existing Act ?—I think they could. If they could make an arrangement to take £500—which, I believe, was done quite legally—l should think they could take more. 4475. The £500 was taken, was it not, in pursuance of a distinct understanding?—l do not think there was any law for it, further than a general power. 447 G. But the arrangement was already in existence when the Act was passed giving the agricultural school endowment over to Canterbury College ? The College had been in the habit of receiving £500 a year from the endowment before the agricultural trust came regularly into its hands ; it merely continued a practice already in existence ?—That might have been so ; but I think there is the power on the part of the College Board to make such an arrangement as I have suggested. 4477. You look upon the Agricultural School as a technical school, I presume ?—-Yes. 4478. In the event of that school not utilizing the teaching power of Canterbury College, would there, in your opinion, be any necessary connection between such technical school and the University ? Whether or it not it might be advisable to erect it into a separate institution, would it derive any practical advantage from a connection with the College or the University if it did not utilize the teaching power ?—lt might perhaps be a good thing for the students to have a diploma from the College in the event of their seeking employment; but I do not know if the Agricultural School would have any right to be so connected with the College if it did not utilize its teaching power, which I think it ought to do. 4479. Rev, W. J. Habens.~\ Do you think that in addition to their technical training the students of the Agricultural School ought, if possible, to receive a liberal education ?—Yes. I think, however, that they ought, to a large extent, to receive such education before they go to the Agricultural School. I may be quite singular in that opinion, but I have formed it from my own experience at Cirencester, where I was a student; and I think that going there at sixteen, or even younger, is mischievous, as I do not think they have sufficient experience of life to see the importance of making the best use of their time at what is practically a college. 4480. "Would you be in favour of the granting of scholarships to students for the Agricultural School—such scholarships to be held first for one or two years or more in Canterbury College proper, and afterwards in the Agricultural School ?—Yes ; I should certainly be in favour of that, as being likely to make the Agricultural School work more completely a department of the College. 4481. Dr. Sector.] Have you a general notion of the standard of the matriculation examination for entering the College ?—Yes, I think I have. 4482. Do you think it is desirable that students before going to the technical college should continue their studies in classics beyond the standard of the matriculation examination?—No ; I do not think they need continue those particular studies after entering the Agricultural School. 4483. Do you think the standard of the matriculation would be a fair point at which they should take a special line in their education ?—I think so. 4484. Suited to their after business in life ?—I think that if a student goes to an agricultural school at the age of about fifteen or sixteen, and begins agricultural chemistry, veterinary surgery and medicine, civil engineering and surveying, geology, botany, and practical agriculture, with a few other things which are usually taught, all together, the probability is that after two years he would come out with a very sketchy knowledge of everything he had undertaken. That is the conclusion which my experience at Cirencester has led me to. 4485. Do you think he should get a part of that knowledge before he proceeds to the Agricultural College ?—I think that a student having matriculated might address himself to chemistry, geology, and one or two other subjects taught in the regular classes of Canterbury College, and that he might then, even concurrently, if he had not too many subjects in hand, still be doing some work at the farm. 4480. And would you have those scholarships to be held by agricultural students for two years at

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Canterbury College, as a preliminary, which you said you would approve of, confined to such subjects as would be useful to the student as part of his final agricultural course? —I think that in founding those scholarships it would be desirable to give them a special direction. 4487. In other words, you would extend the technical education backwards into the College, making the College undertake the preliminary part of the technical education ?—Tes ; and I should look upon the laboratory and other facilities for scientific instruction at the school itself simply as a help to those who had progressed further ; so that they might not lose what they had learnt, and might be able to turn it to good practical account. 4488. Professor Cook.] In view of some such arrangement as that, would it not be necessary to lengthen the complete agricultural course of study beyond the three years which we are told is contemplated ? Would it not be necessary that the complete course, from the time the student entered Canterbury College to the time he left the Agricultural School, should extend over more than three years ?—lt might be so ; I do not feel certain about it. 4489. Seeing that in most other professions a four or five years' course is necessary, would it bo too much to expect at least a four years' course from an agricultural student? —There is always this to be borne in mind: Tou want to teach farming, and if a student had a good knowledge of the scientific part of farming he would probably do better if he were on his own land, after he had had three or four years, or even less, of the course. 4490. Dr. Hector.] In evidence yesterday a distinction was drawn between an agricultural school and an agricultural college. The former was described as being adapted to teach farm labourers and other young men to manage farms; the agricultural college being for the purpose of preparing persons for occupying positions as managers of large estates —skilled farmers, in fact. Have you considered the question of what should be the character of the Canterbury Agricultural College in relation to those two grades, seeing that both exist in Germany? —I have never heard such a distinction drawn myself, and Ido not see why it should exist. It seems to me that we want to teach the kind of farming best suited to the country, and that we had better instruct the students as they go through without dividing the form of instruction at all. Tou want to make a man a complete farmer, not with any special reference to the management of estates, or anything else. 4491. But do you think that to be a complete farmer a man should not only be able to farm his own land, but bo qualified to do his own engineering, his own surveying, and other professional work which is generally delegated to persons employed temporarily? —Tes. 4492. Tou think he should bo able to do that work himself ? —Certainly ; it would be advisable that he should. Take, for instance, veterinary surgery, which is a most importaut thing: if a man has a farm about thirty miles or more from Christchurch, or from any place where he could get a good veterinary surgeon, he should be able to prescribe and perform the more simple operations himself. Unless he can do so his training in that department is of no use to him whatever. The same remarks apply to the measurement of land, and the taking of levels in case of drainage being required. 4493. Tou think a farmer should be able to do all these things himself, instead of having to employ professional men ? —I should say he ought to be able to do those ordinary things ; but to say that ho should be a civil engineer, and be able to build a bridge, would be going much further than I should he disposed to go. 4494. But do you contemplate producing two classes of students, or graduates, in the College— oue set of men having a superior knowledge, and qualified to act as managers of large estates, being conversant with all matters relating to drainage and soil —in fact, farm doctors ; aud persons who would undergo the ordinary training and receive a general knowledge of the principles of farming for their own private use ? —No, I have never made that distinction, because the more extensive the range of work, the more likely would a man be to be qualified by experience. But I should say the same kind of knowledge would be required on the part of both persons. If a man can manage his own farm well, the probability is that he would be able to manage a large estate well, when he had full experience. 4495. Professor Sale.] What number of scholarships is it proposed to establish in connection with the Agricultural College?— Six, I think. We proposed more at one time, but were defeated. 4496. What is their annual value ? —I think they vary in value. 4497. From what class of the community do you expect your students to be mainly drawn ? —I suppose they would be drawn chiefly from tho sons of large and small landed proprietors, and possibly from the sons of persons engaged in trade, who might not wish their families to follow the same pursuit as themselves. 4498. Tou would not then expect the students to be drawn from a more intelligent class than the ordinary students of, say, Canterbury College ?—No, I should think not. 4499. Do you think it necessary that there should be more liberal provision in the way of scholarships in an agricultural college than in a college giving an ordinary liberal education ?—No, I should think not. The only thing is that, by giving scholarships, you may bring the Agricultural College within the reach of persons who could not otherwise avail themselves of it. 4500. What is the idea of the Committee with regard to the qualifications for a scholarship ? — They thought the applicants should pass a certain standard—l think a standard laid down by the Board of Education; —at any rate, that some standard should be adopted. 4501. Was it intended that the circumstances of the candidate, with respect to his means, should be considered iv allotting scholarships?—l do not think that ever engaged the attention of the Committee. 4502. I mean, was it intended that the poverty or wealth of a student should be considered in awarding a scholarship? —I think not. As far as I remember, it was the student who was eligible, and who passed the best examination, who would get the scholarship, without reference to means. *. Mr. C. C. Howaed was sworn and examined. 4503. The Chairman.] What position do you hold in connection with the Normal School iv Christchurch ?—I am Principal.

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4501. How long have you held that office ? —I was appointed in July, 1876. j 4505. I believe you were appointed at Home : will you state by whom the appointment was made ? —I believe that originally the nominators were to have been Lord Lyttelton, Dr. Featherston, and Mr. Ottywell; but that, on the death of Lord Lyttelton and Dr. Featherston, Sir James Power and the Hon. W. E. Gladstone took their places. 4506. What was your experience iv teaching at Home ?—I was for some time junior mathematical master of the Training College at Battersea, and took certain subjects in the school there. Then I was English master for five years in the Training College at Durham. Afterwards I had a country school in Hampshire —a mixed school —being obliged to take easy work on account of the break-down of my health. As soon, as my health was restored, I took a large school in the Black Country, and I also had experience in the work of large schools in Yorkshire. 4507. Who compose the governing body of the Normal School ?—-The members of the Board of Education ; but I was appointed by the Provincial Government. When I arrived here I found that the institution had passed from the hands of tho Provincial Government into those of the Board of Education. 4503. What are your specific duties as Principal of the Normal School ?—I am held responsible for the general management of the institution, acting under the instructions of the Board of Education ; but my special work is the technical training of teachers. 4509. How many pupils have you who come within the category of trained teachers ?—I commenced this year with forty-four ; last year we had seventy-one. 4510. Do these teachers find employment pretty readily when they pass out of your hands ?—I have had no difficulty hitherto in procuring them employment. A large number went up for the recent examination, and some are waiting until the result of the examination is known, and are staying with mo until they get appointments. 4511. What is the average age of these pupils ?—lt varies very much. I suppose the average age would be about twenty-five. I have one, a woman, of about forty-six, and some girls of sixteen. As a rule, we do not receive pupils until they are seventeen ; but I have a discretionary power, and can admit students at sixteen, if I consider them competent to go on with the course, and if they will undertake to stay with us until they are eighteen. We allow no students to leave us until they are eighteen. 4512. Professor Shand.] Could you tell us how many of the students at present in training were examined at the recent examination, and what were the different classes ? —I cannot tell you the exact number, but I think about thirty-two, and of those, I suppose, about twenty-four were for D, and eight forE. 4513. The Chairman.] How many of these candidate-teachers are women, and how many are men ?—Tho proportion of males to females is about one to three ; there are about three times as many women as men, 4514. What is the course of study in which they are instructed ? —They studied with us during the last year all the subjects required for the D examination, except drawing. We did not think drawing would be required this time, and the Board has been contemplating a special arrangement for teaching it —we have no arrangement at present. 4515. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you mean they studied all subjects that could possibly be of use to them in the D examination? —No; all the compulsory subjects, and Euclid and algebra as the two optional subjects. They also studied Latin, but did not carry it on to the point that would enable them to pass the D examination in Latin. 4516. The Chairman.] What staff of assistant teachers have you ? —I have two in the training department—Mr. Watkins and Mr. Newton. 4517. Is there a general examination held for the candidate-teachers ?—We hold our own private examination about Michaelmas: in fact we hold two examinations in the year ; the Michaelmas one is the most severe, and we regard it as a kind of stock-taking to ascertain the requirements of individuals, so that we may better prepare them for the examination they must undergo uuder the Government. 4518. After these candidate-teachers pass out of your hands, do they generally succeed in passing the Government examination of teachers ? —They generally pass the Government examination before they leave me ; there has not been one who has gone up for the examination after leaving me. 4519. Have any failed to pass the examination ? —No. 4520. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tour answer refers, of course, to the examinations that were held by the Board ? —Yes. 4521. The Chairman.] Do these candidate-teachers pay any fees for the instruction they receive at the Normal School ?—No. We admit private students on payment of a fee, in advance, of £20 per annum. The students in training for teachers pay no fees. 4522. Be v. W. E. Mulgan.] Do they support themselves ?—They have to support themselves absolutely ; they have no assistance whatever. 4523. Professor Drown.] Have they to pass any entrance examination ? —They have to give evidence of their capability of passing the Sixth Standard. 4524. By an actual examination ? —We have power to submit them to an actual examination ; but, if I get a testimonial from a schoolmaster that a teacher has already passed that examination, I accept it; and, if I know the schoolmaster, I should prefer sending to him for his opinion of a candidate's abilities to taking an examination. 4525. Professor Cook.] But, if the candidates do not bring such a certificate, or if it is not obtainable, then you examine them ? —-Yes. 4526. Professor Shand.] I suppose the course of instruction in the Normal School is to prepare the candidates for the E and the D divisions of schoolmasters' examinations ? —Yes. 4527. How are the candidates prepared for the higher divisions ?—They do not prepare with us for the higher divisions ; they will, I hope, generally matriculate after they leave us. Some students who left us last year matriculated this year, and I know of several who intend to read this year with the view of matriculating at the next examination.

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'. 4528. It is intended that those who wish to become candidates for the higher divisions should matriculate and receive their instruction at the Canterbury College ?—Yes. 4529. Professor Cook.] It' you require all candidates to pass the Sixth Standard, or to give a certificate that they have already passed it, does not that limit the functions of the training school to preparing candidates to pass tho D examination ? Do you not regard the Sixth Standard, as equivalent to Class E ?—No ; I certainly think not. 4530. Bey. W. J. Habens.] "Would you be so good as to state what arrangements are made to give the students practice in the art of teaching ? —There is a practising school in three departments. "We have at present about 950 children on the books—a boys' school of about 350, a girls' school of about 340, and an infant school of about 2GO. The girls' school aud the infant school are both under trained teachers ; the boys' school is not, at present. The students go and teach in rotation in these schools, in the department for which I think they are best fitted, or which will be most likely to benefit them. They spend, in that way, about a third of their time in the practising school; during the last term they spent rather more than that. 4531. During the year of residence, about how much time would a student spend practising in the training school ?• —About fourteen weeks in the year. 4532. Supposing an untrained master were appointed to be a teacher in the Normal School, how long do you suppose it would be necessary for him to teach there before he would obtain that amount of knowledge which a trained teacher is supposed to possess ? —He would certainly have to stay six months. 4533. You say that the boys' school is not under a trained teacher : how long has the teacher at present in charge been engaged in teaching?—l think about five years. 4534. "Was he for any considerable part of that time in the Normal School ?—Three years in the Normal School —three years, this month, from the opening. 4535. And you do not consider that three years of work in a normal school is sufficient to entitle a man to be considered a trained teacher?—No, Ido not; because he has only had experience of one class of work. 4536. Professor Brown.] But is he not trained in that class of work?—-He is trained in the particular requirements of a normal school, but he is not qualified to train and teach others, or to take charge of a school of an entirely different character. 4537. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think a teacher in such a position might be rendered moro efficient and more useful in the school if some pains were taken to afford him what you consider to be training?—l think so. 4538. "Would it be compatible with the arrangements and general necessities of the school to give such a teacher an opportunity of becoming thoroughly trained?—l did my best by arranging the timetable so that after 3 o'clock tho teachers in the school might take advantage of lectures ; but they were generally so occupied with other studies that they did not avail themselves of the opportunity. I insisted ou their attending a certain course of lectures on method. 4539. Professor Drown.] Then you consider the difference between a trained teacher aud an untrained teacher is the attending a course of lectures on school management?— Partly that —that is a part of his training. He would receive a course of lectures on the principles of education, and on the methods of education ; and he would also take part in discussions as to the best way of embodying sound principles in methods adapted to different schools. 4540. And this is the training that differentiates the trained teacher from the untrained ?—Yes. I ought to havo explained that the students teaching in the practising schools are pretty constantly supervised. I myself go round the building daily, and spend as much time as I possibly can in going from one room to another, and giving the teachers such hints as they seem to need ; and at other times they are under the supervision of the heads of departments, who report to me weekly upon their performances. The reports thus received are made the subject of private conversation with the students who have been teaching. 4541. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you thiuk that a young man who has pursued a liberal education, say in such an institution as Canterbury College, is likely, if opportunities of training be afforded him, to make a better teacher than one whose attainments would only enable him to pass in Class E or D ? —I should think that a man who had passed Class D would probably he as good a teacher as a man who had carried on his studies. I think that a man who can pass Class Dis sufficiently educated for our elementary school work. It depends so much upon his own power of imparting knowledge. If that power is equal, the more a man knows the better. 4542. Professor Brown.] So that, supposing two persons to start with equal powers of imparting knowledge, the one who had received a liberal education would be better than the other? —Yes. 4543. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Could you, in a normal school, offer to young men pursuing a liberal education in Canterbury College facilities for obtaining that technical knowledge of the art of teaching which is required before a certificate can be granted, or before it would be right to place a candidate iv charge of a school ? —I should be very glad to make arrangements to suit the convenience of such students, if application were made to me ; but in no case hitherto has any one been able to avail himself of the opportunity when offered. I had one application, but the young man was not able to give his time to the work then ; and a young woman, who was pursuing her studies at Canterbury College, was about to enter upon a course of training, but an opportunity of bettering herself offered. 4544. Professor Shand.] Are there any arrangements for the boarding of the students in training? —No; the students have to make the best arrangements they can. The majority of them live at home, and come in by train. 4545. And they are not under any supervision ?—No. There are very few who board in town, and they, in almost every case, live with friends. 454 G. Does the Board of Education pay anything towards their expenses ? —Not a penny ; they have to pay all their own expenses—even their travelling expenses. 4547. Bey. W. J. Habeas.] Do you know what amount the Board of Education receives from year to year to maintain the Normal School ? —I believe it is £2,000.

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4548. Do you thiuk that out of that sum it would bo possible for the Board to grant scholarships? . —I think it might. I proposed a scheme for the purpose to the Board some months ago, but it happened just then that there was no money which could be devoted to that object. Their resources had been taxed to the utmost by paying the expenses of country teachers to the Saturday lectures on education ; therefore the matter was relegated to another year. I proposed that they should spend £200 in money prizes to encourage the students, and I sketched out a scheme by which I thought the £200 might be turned to profitable account. 4549. And is that £200 all that you recommended for appropriation among the students ?—That was all I asked for, because I thought it was the most I could possibly get. I think that more money might well be expended in encouraging students to enter. Something seems to me necessary to be done to encourage male students to enter. 4550. How much do you think might be applied in this direction out of the £2,000 a year ?—Of that annual sum £1,300 is absorbed in salaries, which would only leave £700, and from that would have to be deducted various incidental expenses, including the cost of maintenance. I am afraid we could not hope for more than £300. Our students remain with us for the minimum period of a year, and, estimating tho expense of each student at £40 a year, it would be manifestly impossible to pay them their expenses in full out of £2,000 per annum. In cases where they only come for six weeks or two months you can assist a great many students out of £300 ; but you cannot do so if they take the long course they do bere. 4551. Professor Broion.] Do you not think scholarships could be established to bring students to take the fourteen weeks' training at once ? Fourteen weeks, I understand, is the time you devote to practical training in the year ?—Yes ; bu ides that, they would, of course, require a great deal of theoretical instruction. 4552. Could they not acquire that fr om books ?—Not so well, I think ; they have books as well. I am very anxious to encourage amongst them independent study of their profession ; and I find that criticism lessons and school-management discussions are the best means of securing that. My students receive every week about 4| hours' theoretical instruction, besides the time they spend in the practising schools. 4553. Bey. W. J. Habens.] To what extent do you thiuk it possible to mahe the practising school also a model school—l mean a model as to the discipline, order, and method, and everything connected witb a school ? —You could make it to a certain extent a model scbool, but it would not be a model that could be reproduced in many particulars. At the same time it should be a model to a great extent in matters of discipline. 4554. Do you think that the fact that students, at an early stage, are allowed to practise in the school, militates against the school being in a model condition ? —Tes, to some extent it does, because the classes are constantly changing teachers, so that the children are not under that settled control which is desirable. 4555. Do you think it is a serious disadvantage to a young person in training to have frequently before his eyes a school which is in such a condition that it cannot be regarded as a model ? —No, I do not think it is a serious disadvantage. 4556. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it is a disadvantage to the children who attend a model school that they are subject to a constant change of teachers ?—No, Ido not. I think the power we have of breaking up large classes into small ones more than counterbalances that; and I think that children, in such a school as ours, make quite as good progress as those under other circumstances, and, so far as I am able to test tho work, the classes generally taught by the students do quite as well as those taught by the teachers: in some respects, I should certainly desire to take a visitor to a student's class, rather than to a master's class, as a model of how a class should be managed. The staff consists almost entirely of young teachers of limited educational experience, and who had never received an hour's training for their special work. 4557. Professor Brown.] I suppose most of them have been three years in the Normal School as practising teachers : do you not think that has given them an opportunity of becoming trained ? —lt has given thenrsome opportunities, but they have not availed themselves of them perhaps to so great an extent as they ought; and certainly they do not always show such good work—such good outward results —as the students do. For instance, some of my teachers, who needed them most, scarcely attended the public lectures on education, but said that other studies they were obliged to pursue prevented them. 4558. Then you think it was the want of attention to these lectures which prevented them from becoming good masters ? —I think they would have been much better teachers if they had attended these lectures ; but I think they wanted, more than anything, preparatory training as pupil-teachers under a good master. A trained English master, over and above the time he spends in a training college, serves five years as a pupil-teacher. I myself had five years' training as a pupil-teacher, before I went to the training college at all. 4559. But have none of these masters had training as pupil-teachers ? —No. 4560. Professor Cook.] And these students whom you receive in the ordinary course —have any large number of them been pupil-teachers ?—About 30 per cent. 4561. And the remaining 70 per cent, acquired the whole knowledge of the profession by one year's residence at the school? —Not necessarily one year. 4562. No, because they may stay on ; but, say, 50 per cent, acquire the whole knowledge of the profession during one year's residence ? —Tes —acquire aIL they know of it. 4563. Do you think that is sufficient training ? —No; I think that a year is the very lowest that can be considered training at all. In England it is two years. 4564. After the five years' apprenticeship ? —Tes, two years at a training college. Here we fix one year, not because we think it is the most desirable period, but because it is the most we could ask for. 4565. Do you not think that a man with three years' practice iv a normal school would be a more efficiently trained teacher than one who had merely attended there as a student for one year? —No, I

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should think not; because ho has not had the theoretical training which the other has had, and has not the same knowledge of the principles of work. A student acquires a knowledge of principles that would serve him in good stead in almost any school in which he might be placed. 4566. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that in the examinations for classifying teachers the training of a teacher has sufficient weight as against general knowledge ?—I do not think it has. 4567. Is there any way in which the examinations could be conducted which would give that part more prominence ? —I think more prominence was given to it in the last examinations than in the examinations under the Board. But I think it is too often overlooked that the persons being examined claim to possess teaching power, and that therefore they should be required to show teaching power in any subject they take up. 4568. Professor Cook.] You think they should be required to show teaching power on every subject they take up ? —I think so. 4569. That it is no use for a man to possess a knowledge of Latin, or Greek, or German, or any other subject, without being able competently to teach it ?—Yes, it is of use; but it would be far better for him to be able to teach those subjects; and you ought to give him a question to find out whether he can teach them or not. 4570. Under the present arrangements for examining teachers, do you think duo importance is given to a technical knowledge of the principles and art of teaching ?—I think not; I do not know how many marks are given to other subjects. 4571. Do you think that at the last examination sufficient weight seemed to have been attached to a knowledge of theoretical principles in the art of teaching ? —Scarcely sufficient weight; but it was an improvement on other examinations. It would depend largely on the number of marks given for the school-management paper in comparison with those given for the other subjects. In England they give 100 marks for school management, 50 for history, and 50 for geography. 4572. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Your remarks apply only so far as the classification depends on examination ? —Yes. 4573. Professor Cook.] You are aware that in the scheme at present being worked a large amount of credit is allowed a teacher for practical skill, over and above what is elicited by mere paper examination ?—Yes. 4574. If you take that in conjunction with the amount of skill in school management which is elicited by paper examination, do you not think that all the weight that is desirable is allowed to theoretical knowledge and practical skill ? —I think it would still be desirable to allow a little more. 4575. In what way? —By way of examination. I should like to see candidates tested more as they are in England. There, every teacher who takes a school has to give a lesson before the Inspector, and, in addition to that, has to do two years' good work before obtaining his certificate. 4576. Is not that practically done here ? —No ; the teachers who came up for the examination had to give no immediate evidence of teaching-power beyond that elicited by the examination. 4577. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you aware that a candidate will not receive a certificate upon the result of the examination, but must produce evidence of at least two years' work in a school, and a testimonial from a Public School Inspector, or from the Principal of a normal college, to the effect that he is competent to teach and exercise control ? —Yes. 4578. Professor Shand.] You mentioned that the Normal School was under the Board of Education ? —Yes. 4579. Do you think that is the best arrangement for the school, or would you rather have it under the Minister of Education ? —I should certainly prefer its being placed under the direction of the Minister. The fluctuations in the constitution of the Board exercise a very bad influence upon the work of the school. The plan of work is liable to be upset in any year. I may be instructed to work on entirely different lines this year from those I worked on last year, and next year I may receive different orders again. 4580. And would you be inclined to withdraw also the practising department, or school attached to the Normal College, from the control of the Board of Education ? —Yes, I should. I think that is an integral part of the school, and quite a peculiar institution, and that it is not fair to judge it by the same standard by which other schools are judged, or expect exactly the same things from it. I think it might be made much more useful as a practising school if greater freedom of action were allowed to it than to other schools. Por instance, I cannot very well give a student the practice I should wish in school organization, because if I disorganize the school in order to illustrate different methods of organization the work itself is hindered for the time being. 4581. Dr. Hector.] Would not the children attending the school be able to come up and take their different standard examinations as rapidly as would be the case in any other school? —I think they would ; I am not afraid of the standard test. 4582. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Eeferring again to the test which ought to be applied to a candidate for a certificate as to his practical skill, do you think it is satisfactory for the Minister to accept the testimonial of an Inspector of Schools, or the Principal of a normal school, or do you think some other test should be applied ?■—l should like to have a further test applied. I think it is good so far as it goes. 4583. And by whom do you think it should be applied ?—By some independent officer like the Inspector-General of Schools. 4584. But, considering that the examinations are necessarily held at many separate centres, do you think it is likely that persons can be found at those central places more competent to give an opinion than the Inspectors of Schools and the Principals of normal colleges ? —Possibly not at present; but I should wish very much that some independent person should come into my school and hear my students teach. I would be very willing to allow the PrincipaJ of any other normal school to come ; I think it would be an advantage to both of us. 4585. Do you think the difficulty could be got over, and an independent person secured, by your declining to give testimonials to your own students, and leaving it to the Inspector of Schools to testify

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as an independent person ?—An Inspector of Schools, perhaps, would not he so likely to find out the truth about them as I should myself. I should like to have his evidence and my own taken into account. 4556. The Chairman.] Is your Normal School, in your opinion, a fair representation of an English normal school ? —lt differs in the fact that the students are not resident, as they are in England. In other respects the work is very similar to that of the English normal schools. But I believe that the practical training of the teacher is cared for very much better than in the English training colleges. I have considerable knowledge of those schools, both large and small, and I do not think that the work is done very thoroughly in many of them ; there is such a competition between them as to which shall take the highest place iv the literary examinations that tho practical training of the students is largely neglected. Indeed, Ido not think that I myself left the training college in any respect a better teacher than when I entered it, for I had scarcely any help. 4587. Do the candidate-teachers at the Normal School attend at the usual school hours ?—Yes. The training department opens at 10 and closes at 4; the practising school opens at 9 and closes at 3. But students whose turn it is to teach in the practising school are required to he present, if possible, at 9 o'clock; but many of them are dependent on train arrangements, and cannot possibly attend at that time. Dr. Tuunbull was sworn and examined. 4588. The Chairman.] You are a member of the medical profession, practising in Christchurch ?— I am. 4589. How long have you been practising in this place ?—Eor twenty years. 4590. What medical degree do you hold ?—I am a Doctor of Medicine of the University of Edinburgh. 4591. I believe you are one of the governors of Canterbury College, and also Dean of the Medical Faculty at the College ?—Yes. 4592. The Commission would like to ascertain your opinion as to the advisability, or feasibility, of establishing a medical school in the colony ? —I have for years been of opinion that a medical school could be established with advantage in each island of the colony. 4593. Do you think that, if a medical school were established, it would be capable of giving the full medical course? —It would afford an education equal to that given by any provincial medical school in England. 4594. Professor Brown.] Could you give us an instance of such a provincial school ?—There is one at Newcastle, at Manchester, Liverpool, Leeds, and Sheffield. 4595. The Chairman.] Is a full medical education entitling a student to a diploma given in those schools ?—The full medical education is given in each of them, as prescribed by the College of Surgeons in London. They do not grant diplomas. The student has to go to London for his degree or diploma. 4596. Bey. W. J. Habens.] By what body is the diploma granted ? —By the College of Surgeons of England, in London, on examination. 4597. And does the College of Surgeons require a testamur to the fact that the candidate has studied during a certain number of terms in a provincial college?— Certainly—the same as if it were in Guy's Hospital, or the London Hospital. 4598. The Chairman.] Supposing there were two medical schools established in the colony—one in the North Island and one in the South —by whom would you suggest that the degrees should be conferred ?—By the University of New Zealand ; unquestionably by one University. 4599. Has the University of New Zealand got a staff of examiners at present sufficient to conduct an examination of medical students ?—No. As Dean of the Faculty I wrote to the University authorities, the session before last, requesting them to lay down a curriculum, or to affiliate us to the University, in order that we might write to London, asking to be recognized as a school of medicine. 4600. To whom did you write ? —To the Chancellor of the University, through the Eegistrar. That was last year. 4601. What reply did you receive ?—The Chancellor said the Senate did not see its way during that session to establish any curriculum for medical students. 4602. Bey. W. J. Habens^] Do you know whether the Chancellor has conducted a correspondence on the subject with any authorities in England since that date? —I heard so. I find it stated in the Minutes of the Proceedings of tho Senate of the University of New Zealand, Session 1879, that the Medical Council of England is not empowered to register colonial degrees, but that there is nothing to prevent tho New Zealand University granting degrees for its own colony. 4603. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it would be desirable that the University of New Zealand should grant degrees that would not range beyond the colony ? —I really do, looking at the number of youths who are growing up here anxious for a profession. I think that each island could educate a number every year who would serve our purjjose quite as well as any imported doctors. 4604. Do you think it would be inflicting an injury upon young medical men to encourage them to devote the whole of their student life to the acquisition of a degree that would be of no use to them beyond the confines of this colony ?—I look to the Medical Council, I will not say to compel, but to persuade, the English Parliament to give the range of the Empire to our degrees. I cannot see how they can refuse to do so. 4605. Will they not probably lay down certain regulations as to the course of study before they agree to accept the degrees ?—Unquestionably. I would not establish a medical school in New Zealand that would not be recognized by the College of Surgeons or the Medical Council of England. 4606. Then in your opinion is it better that the University of New Zealand should delay laying down a curriculum until that recognition is granted ? —I have thought over that point, which in fact was the subject of my letter to the Chancellor, and can answer the question at once. Until the Medical School is an established fact it will not receive recognition from the Home authorities. They will not recognize us as a problematical school, but only as one in existence. 29— H. 1.

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4607. Are you aware that the Medical Council is debarred not merely by unwillingness but by law from granting recognition to colonial degrees, and that a Bill, which has already been once before the Imperial Parliament, will probably pass this session, or the next, giving them power to recognize such degrees ? —I read the correspondence with the Vice-Chancellor in which that was stated. 4608. Are you still of opinion that it would be desirable to take any steps until that Bill becomes law ?—Yes. If the University determines to establish a school of medicine in the colony it will take at least twelve months to do so ; and I think the sooner the school is recognized on paper the better, and it is intimated to the lecturers that they may prepare for teaching, and organize their school. 4609. The Chairman.] If a medical school were established in Christchurch, what number of students do you think would attend ? —We had eight; and in our letter to the Board of Governors of Canterbury College, copy of which I will leave with the Commission, we say that we are prepared to obtain ten at the very lowest. We have eight definite names. I could give the names of sons of old settlers who were prepared to commence study with us. Our letter is now under the consideration of the Board of Governors. I also hand in a copy of the Provincial Government Gazette of the 7th September, 1876, containing the prospectus of the Christchurch Medical School, and the names of the lecturers. It remains in force upon paper up to this time, and we have the written promise of each lecturer to commence lecturing as soon as called upon by the Canterbury College, and by the University ; and they are all prepared to do so upon the scheme as written down in this Gazette. 46.10. So soon as the University prescribes the curriculum?— Yes; as soon as the curriculum is prescribed the lecturers will be prepared to commence. 4611. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are any of the lecturers who are named in the Gazette members of tho Board of Governors of Canterbury College ? —Mr. Coward and myself. 4612. Do you think there would be any difficulty, or any violation of a principle that ought to be respected, in the acceptance by members of the Board of Governors of positions of emolument in the Medical School, which is under the control of the Board of Governors?— Unquestionably there would. 4613. Professor Drown.] How would you propose to get over the difficulty?— The gentlemen in question would hold honorary positions and receive no salary. I see no reason why salaried teachers in a college should not occupy seats on the Boards of Governors ; but according to the laws of the College at the present time it would be wrong to do so. 4614. Could you point out that law ? Is there anything in the Act or the foundation, or is it a mere matter of agreement amongst the Board ? —lt is a by-law which was made when the legal adviser of the Board was appointed. That gentleman had to resign his position as a member of the Board of Governors. 4615. Was this the result of a tacit agreement or a distinct resolution ? —A distinct resolution of the Board of Governors. When the gentleman I have referred to was appointed legal adviser it was by a resolution which said that no one receiving emolument from the College should sit upon the Board of Governors. 4616. Bey. W. J. Habens?^ What is your opinion as to the propriety of the restriction which the Board seems to have imposed upon its members in this respect ? —Candidly speaking, I can see no reason whatever why professors and teachers of the College—paid officers of the Board —should not sit on the Board of Governors. I have always held the opinion that the presence of a definite number of the teaching staff would be an advantage to the governing body. 4617. Professor Shand.] If any members of the teaching staff were appointed members of the governing body, as might be the case if the resolution were rescinded, would you restrict their power of voting in any way ? —Certainly not. 4618. Would you permit them to vote on matters relating to their own salaries ?—I should think their own good taste would induce them to retire from any discussion of that kind. 4619. But you would not formally disqualify them from taking part in such business ? —I would not. I would restrict the number of teachers and professors who could sit on the Board; because, otherwise, if the proposed medical school were included, the whole Board of Governors might be constituted solely of teachers. 4620. You mean by that that the professors and lecturers should not necessarily, ex officio, be members of the Board ? —Yes ; they should be subject to election the same as any other member of the community. 4621. The Chairman.] You have spoken of a Gazette dated three years ago showing the staff, &c, of a proposed Christchurch medical school: has any real practical gain been produced to this community by that medical school having been gazetted ?—Not the slightest. It enabled us to obtain a position in Canterbury College as a department of that College, and simply gave us an existence on paper. 4622. Bey. W. J. Habens.] If sufficient money were provided for the immediate institution of the proposed medical school, is it certain that it would have access to the hospital ?—No, not at all certain. 4623. Can you suggest any legislation or regulation which you think would be desirable to bring the Medical School into necessary relation with the hospital?—l understand that in Great Britain and Ireland the schools attached to hospitals have no legal standing in those hospitals, but that the governing bodies of the latter are only too glad to accept the services of the medical schools. But if we were starting afresh in a small community, such as we would commence a school with here, my impression is that, in each Island, a hospital and a medical school should be conjoined in some central position, and receive by legislation—either by way of endowment in land, annual grants, or rates—a definite income. It should be done by legislation, so as not to be capable of being altered owing to any local prejudices or disagreements that might occur. 4624. Do you think it would be necessary, in order to give effect to that in such a community as Christchurch, to place the hospital in some respects under the control of the governing body of Canterbury College, which controls the Medical School?—lt ought to be placed under a central body of some kind; but whether the Board of Governors of the College is the proper body lam not prepared to say. 4625. You would be satisfied if some arrangement were made so as to secure harmonious working

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between the Medical School and the hospital authorities ? —Yes. I should distinguish the hospital of a large and populous district from the casual hospital of an outlying district, which ought to be conducted on a different plan altogether. 4626. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it advisable that the medical men attached to a hospital should be encumbered with the greater part of the work of management, or the housekeeping of the hospital, and with the control of the finance ?—lt is the greatest possible mistake to give the medical depart. ment of a hospital anything whatever to do with the lay management. 4627. When you were talking of giving to the teaching body of the Medical School a voice in the management of a hospital you did not include the lay management ?—I have advocated for years the distinct separation of the lay and medical government of a hospital, leaving the lay management entirely to laymen. 4628. You would have the hospital, in fact, as far as the Medical School is concerned, as a kind of normal training school for medical men making use of the hospital?— Exactly so. 4629. But the primary management of the hospital would be with a view to the convenience of the sick in the district iv which it was placed?— Yes, leaving the lay matters entirely to laymen. 4630. Professor Cook.] You spoke of a central hospital: do you mean one for the whole of the South Island, or one for the whole of the North Island, or two hospitals ? —One for each Island. 4631. One hospital for the South Island and one for the North ? —Yes. 4632. Dr. Hector.] You mean in relation to the teaching, not in relation to the hospital wants ?— Yes, in relation to teaching. 4633. The Chairman.] Do you think the eight students who were desirous of acquiring a medical education would, as an earnest of their intention, have paid the fees prescribed in the prospectus — namely, fifty guineas a year or £150 ? —I can say quite safely, knowing that lam speaking on business, that every one of thorn was prepared to pay those fees. 4634. Dr. Hector.] Is there a Eegistrar in Christchurch appointed or accepted by the General Medical Council of Great Britain ?—No. 4635. Is there any institution whose examination is accepted by the General Medical Council ?~- Yes, Christ's College. 4636. Who has been appointed to receive these applications for registration ? —I have no idea. 4637. Have any of the lecturers appointed in connection with the proposed Medical School taken steps to secure recognition for their teaching hy any degree-granting body at Home ? —When we were a Medical School unconnected with Canterbury College we corresponded with the various authorities at Home requesting recognition as a school if established under the Provincial Government; but we never received any satisfactory answer. The practical answer was, "Establish yourselves, and do the teaching, and we will then talk of recognition." 4638. That was, the recognition of the school ?—Yes. 4639. But my question was more with regard to the teachers—whether attendance at their lectures would be recognized as equivalent to attendance at any Home institution ? —No such applications have been made. 4610. Then, in the event of a student taking advantage of what has been done towards establishing a medical school here —supposing you proceed a step further—would his time be lost, in regard to his medical studies and the obtaining of a degree, until the New Zealand University granted a degree ? — Unquestionably; with the exception that attendance at the hospital here would be recognized as attendance at a hospital at Home. 4641. At Home it would be recognized? —Yes. Our hospital here contains the regulation number of beds, and a year's attendance there would count as a year's attendance upon studies at Home. 4642. Upon what do you found that? —Upon the published regulations of the London and Edinburgh Schools of Medicine. 4643. I understand you to say that attendance in the hospital at Christchurch would be equal to attendance at a hospital at Home towards a medical degree, without any explicit recognition of that hospital ? —Yes. 4644. Then who would grant the certificate in that case ?—ln one instance a gentleman went Home and received a certificate from Dr. Prins, whose pupil he was, and the twelve months' attendance at the hospital was recognized as part of his English studies. 4645. And did that include clinical teaching ?—No. 4646. Then he would have to attend a hospital at Home in order to enter upon his clinical course ? —Yes. 4647. The Chairman.] As matters now stand—seeing that you have got an endowment—do you see any immediate prospect of a medical school being established in Christchurch ? —We require £2,000 a year to establish it; we could not possibly do it under that. And you will see from the paper I leave for perusal that that sum will be so insufficient for the payment of salaries as to make a large portion of tho work gratuitous on the part of the twelve lecturers who are named. Our proposal was that, if we could receive £2,000 a year from Canterbury College, the rental or interest arising from our reserves might go to the College in reduction of that sum until it was all paid off. Men with a knowledge of matters relating to land estimate that the reserve is worth £1,000 a year. The sum appears to be a larger contribution by the College than it would be in reality, because in the £2,000 we include £200 to a physiological lecturer, and £200 to the chemical lecturer, so that really there is not more than £600 asked for from the College. 4648. Profesior Cook.] Do I understand that the lecturers are willing to lecture for the Medical School practically gratuitously ? —I certainly understand something of that kind. Those two would practically get very little increase in their salaries. 4649. And those gentlemen are willing ? —I cannot say that; they have given a written promise. We have their letters to the effect that they are willing to commence lectures immediately. 4650. Dr. Hector.] I suppose in the matter of chemistry there would be no difference in the ordinary course of chemistry and that required as part of the medical curriculum? The ordinary

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course of chemistry as now carried on in the College would be sufficient ?—With very small modifications it would equally suit the medical student. Perhaps I may be permitted to quote a short extract from the Minutes of the Medical Council of Canterbury College, dated 29th , 1878. It is as follows: "Letters in answer to circular letter of February 26, 1878, were read. The following gentlemen stated they were prepared to deliver such course of lectures as the New Zealand University might prescribe: Doctors Turnbull, Deamer, Nedwill, Prankish, and Powell, and Messrs. Bell-Hay and Bickerton." 4651. Professor Drown.] Was not that at a time when there was no prospect of any lecturer getting a salary ? —lt was after the reserve was made. 4652. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Supposing it were found possible to establish a medical school in Christchurch, and another in Dunedin, do you think it would be desirable to have those two schools ? —It is a question of expense. A very serious question arises: if the young men of Christchurch have to be sent to Dunedin for their medical education, and vice versa, it means the discussion of the question whether it would not be better to send them Home. 4653. When you suggested just now that there should be one medical school for each Island, you did not mean to say that you would not recommend more if funds could be found ? —I do not see any reason why, as in England, there should not be as many medical schools as can be supported. 4654. Dr. Hector.] How many students would you expect to enter annually for a medical course of study in New Zealand, considering the population of the colony?—I really could not answer that. I feel quite satisfied that we could begin with twelve, and have a sensible addition every year. 4655. Professor Cook.] Do you know what became of the young men whose names were given in as certain to become students if the school had started ?—(1.) Brewster : Bank of New South Wales. (2.) Hawkes : Now in dispensary of Christchurch Hospital. (3.) Cotterell, son of Dr. Cotterell, Invercargill, then a student at Christ's College, Christchurch : Do not know what he is now doing. (4.) Westenra: Now a medical student, Edinburgh. (5.) Moorhouse: Now a medical student, London. (6.) DOyly, son of the Land Eegistrar here: Do not know what he is now doing. (7.) Deamer: Now a medical student, London. Hawkes, Westenra, Moorhouse, and Deamer passed the classical examination at Christ's College, which is recognized in England. The eighth I cannot remember, but I think the four who have gone on with their original intention of becoming doctors make a fair demonstration of the bond fide character of the intentions of tho parents or guardians of the intending students. 4656. Bey. W. J. Habens^] In advocating the establishment of a medical school, have you regard chiefly to the interests of young men who desire to enter the profession, or chiefly to the public advantage which would accrue from the supply of medical men; or is your advocacy based upon both of these, and upon general grounds?—l base my advocacy upon three grounds —in the first place upon the natural wish of parents to secure for their children such an outlet as the medical profession; secondly, that tho mere work, both in teaching and in practice, of a medical school would compel medical men to pursue a higher course of study than they would otherwise do ; and that it would be a great advantage to the public, and at the same time afford better facilities for medical study, if there were a central situation for the treatment of all kinds of illness. The great advantage that would result from the establishment of a medical school would be that general practitioners who might otherwise be comparatively careless would be obliged to work up their profession to the point necessary to enable them to teach others. The third ground is simply the benefit to the public generally. There is the benefit to the medical men, the benefit to the public, and the benefit to the students. 4657. Dr. Hector.] How far, in your opinion, would it be necessary for medical students in New Zealand to follow a classical course of study in a college before commencing their special medical studies ? The opinion is held by some that they should take either the degree of B.A. or something nearly equivalent, before they branched off to their special studies. On the other hand some persons think that the amount of classical or what might be called arts knowledge which a student has on leaving the higher form in school is quite sufficient, if he is able to pass a full matriculation examination, to warrant him in proceeding at once to his special medical studies. What is your opinion on that point? —I can speak on that point rather definitely, because we have discussed it in the Medical Council, and, both individually and as Chairman of the Faculty, I can say that we are entirely in favour of having the very highest class of arts examination that can be procured for our students before they commence the study of medicine. 4658. Professor Cook.] Do I understand you to say that you wish them to graduate in arts ?— I would not exactly say that they should graduate in arts; but we would have an examination that would be somewhat equivalent—as high as possible. 4659. Something more than the matriculation examination ? —Yes. 4660. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you see any difficulty in their carrying on part of an arts course concurrently with their more direct medical studies ? —ln my opinion there is no difficulty whatever. That was one point on which there was a difference of opinion. Some thought that the arts course ought to be finished before that of medicine began. I can see no difficulty in a portion of the literary study being carried on concurrently with the earlier medical study. 4661. Dr. Hector.] How many years would you propose for a medical curriculum ? —I should say four. 4662. In addition to the literary ?—Yes. 4663. How many years for the literary ? —Three, I should think. 4664. That would be seven in all ?—I would not confine it to any definite number of years, provided the students pass the examination. That is more a matter for the University to determine. 4665. Professor Shand.] You do not mean, then, that they would have to pass this strict examination in arts before entering upon their medical course ?—That is what the majority of my colleagues think ; but I hold the opinion that they might very properly pass the literary examination during the first or second year of their medical course—that is to say, that they might for one or two years study the two branches concurrently, so as to shorten the whole period of study.

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4666. You mentioned that some time ago there were eight students prepared to commence their medical course. Cau you tell us how many of these would have been able to pass an examination in arts, such as you have described ? —The three who have gone Home passed the examination that was necessary to enable them to matriculate there. They passed the Christ's College arts examination, which passed them in tho London General Medical Council for the examination required there. 4667. Are you aware whether the examination they passed in Christ's College was similar to the ono prescribed by the General Medical Council ?—I could not say of my own knowledge. It embraced all the literary requirements for a medical student: in other words, it is the matriculation for entrance to medical studies. 4668. I suppose your answer would be that it is accepted by the General Medical Council as equivalent to their examination ? —Yes. 4669. I should like to know whether this examination, which is prescribed by the General Medical Council, is not very much below the examination you were suggesting in point of difficulty ? —I really am not in a position to say. 4670. Bey. W. J. Habens.] You are probably aware that for a medical degree in the London University a certain amount of knowledge of mental science is required: would you be disposed to regard that as desirable here ? —Not in the early years of the existence of a medical school. 4671. Dr. Hector.] You are aware that almost the first department of study that a medical student has to direct his attention to is dissection —human anatomy ?—Yes. 4672. From your experience as a student, is it compatible with close attention to anatomy for a couple of years that the student should be required to prepare himself for the examinations required for an arts course, considering the amount of reading and work which that preparation would involve? —I think so. My colleagues are distinctly of opinion that the arts course ought to be concluded before the medical studies commence; but I see no reason whatever why it should not be carried on for a year or two afterwards. 4673. Professor Shand.] Do you think that a medical man engaged in general practice would havo sufficient time to devote to giving instruction iv anatomy ?—That is quite right: the anatomical lecturer is rarely a practitioner. Usually the other lecturers are practitioners —consulting practitioners—but the anatomical lecturer, from the very nature of his employment, is not usually a general practitioner. 4674. In the scheme that was drawn up by the Faculty here, was it proposed that the lecturer on anatomy should not be a general practitioner?—l think you will find that, according to that scheme, he was to be a general practitioner. Ido not know how to avoid that. lam not sufficiently acquainted with them to say whether in the smaller provincial schools in England the anatomical lecturer is or is not a practitioner. 4675. Dr. Hector.] What branches of study in the medical course would you propose to overlap on the arts course ? —I should say just the ordinary branches. 4676. Would you include anatomy ? —Lectures on anatomy, but not dissecting. 4677. Do you think that any satisfactory progress is made in anatomy without dissecting from the very beginning? —I suppose not; it ought to begin at once.* 4678. From your experience, do you find that the student docs not generally find out whether he will care to follow the medical profession or not until he has actually entered on the anatomical course ? • —I am quite satisfied that it is not a very nice thing for a young student to commence dissecting immediately, because that is one thing that determines whether he will follow the profession or not, and therefore I think that for the first six months I should have no dissecting. 4679. Would you consider the student as really having commenced to follow his medical course until he had entered upon practical anatomy ? —Yes; he would study botany and chemistry. 4680. They are parts of the arts course ?—Not quite in the same direction. The arts course would require to be enlarged to be a medical study. 4681. Would the chemistry course as at present adopted be sufficient for a first-year medical student ?—Yes, certainly. 4682. So that attendance on that course would not necessarily lead to any specialization of the students' studies for medical purposes ?—No. 4653. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it of importance to the professional efficiency of a medical man that he should have some further knowledge of Latin than is required for matriculation ? —I do. I really could not impress too strongly the necessity for having a high-class arts examination. 4684. Dr. Hector.] Do you think the standard of classical attainments laid down by the Universities at Home, and by the General Medical Council, is too low, then ? —Not now. The Edinburgh Arts examination for students seems to me amply sufficient. It was much too low when I passed. In the Edinburgh University Calendar, .1877-78, page 18 L, under the head of " Graduation in Medicine," the following occurs : " In section xvii. of the said Statutes, it is enacted, That the degree of Doctor of Medicine shall not bo conferred on any person unless he be a graduate in arts, or unless he shall, before or at the time of his obtaining the degree of Bachelor of Medicine, or thereafter, have passed a satisfactory examination on three of the subjects mentioned in section ii. Two of these must be Greek and logic or moral philosophy, and the third may be anyone of the following subjects —namely, French, German, higher mathematics"-, natural philosophy." 4685. I wish to call your attention to the medical scholarship which has recently been established by the New Zealand University, and to ask whether, in your opinion, it will be a benefit to those who seek a medical education in New Zealand ? —I disagree entirely with those £100 scholarships, whether medical or in any other branch of education. 4686. The following is the regulation specifying the value, tenure, and conditions of the medical scholarships established by the University : " (1.) There shall be a medical scholarship of the value of £100 per annum, and tenable for three years. (2.) The competition for the medical scholarship * The witness wishes to substitute for this answer the following words: "Yes, certainly. I think lectures of six months on anatomy should precede dissection." —Sec. E. Con.

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shall take place at the senior scholarship examination, and shall be decided by excellence in the papers on anatomy, physiology, zoology, botany, and chemistry. (3.) The medical scholarship shall be open to matriculated students of the University of New Zealand of not less than two years' standing, who, in at least three of the subjects of examination, have attended classes recognized by one of the Universities of Great Britain granting medical degrees. (4.) The medical scholarship shall be held on condition that the holder gives satisfactory proof to the Chancellor that he is taking the necessary steps towards the obtaining of his medical degree." So that a student may go Home after he gets his scholarship and study for three years in any University that grants degrees. In your opinion will this scholarship be of use in the meantime until the University of New Zealand is in a position to grant a medical degree ? —I do not think so. The scholarships of so large an amount are never gained by those for whom they are intended—namely, the poor who cannot afford to send their sons Home. I have invariably opposed these large scholarships; and I opposed the Agricultural School scholarships of 1875, because they are never held by boys whose parents cannot afford to give them the money. 4687. Then do I understand that your objection is founded upon the amount of the scholarship oeing, in your opinion, too large ?—lt is too large; a microscope or a book is quite sufficient. 4658. But when you consider that the object of this scholarship is to enable a person, by paying his expenses, to go Home and obtain a medical examination for three years, do you think the amount of £100 a year is too large ? —I think it is a misdirected expenditure to devote money to sending a man Home when what he requires can be obtained here. 4089. The Chairman.] In your opinion has the University of New Zealand, as it at present exists, assumed the form most suitable to the educational wants of the colony ? —I agree with the position of the University—a single University with colleges in different centres of population; there should only be one University granting degrees. lam entirely and thoroughly of that opinion. 4690. And are you satisfied that this one University should be simply an examining body, and that the teaching should be done in the colleges which you mentioned ? —That is decidedly my opinion— that the University should be an examining body only. 4691. Have you formed any opinion as to the constitution of the governing body —whether it should remain as at present, or whether the professors in the various colleges which you think ought to be established should be members of the Senate to a considerable extent ? —That is a question which would almost require a written answer instead of an immediate one ; because I quite disagree with professors being solely the governing body of a University. The constitution of the Senate should be based on a liberal system, which would include laymen as well as professors. There is nothing I dislike so much as the prospect of the University being solely governed by the professorial element. 4692. Professor Cook.] Have you any objection to tho professors being eligible for a seat in the Senate ? —None whatever. 4693. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it would be desirable to give certain colleges direct representation in the way of the right of election of members of the Senate ?—I think it would be an exceedingly good method of extending I will not say the popularity, but the usefulness, of the University to allow each college or group of colleges to elect a representative. But on no account should the members of the Senate be elected solely by the colleges. You would then have local influences and log-rolling of different kinds. I always believe in a certain element of nomination iv the constitution of a Board. 4691. Then you think that, to some extent, the present system of nomination by the Government to the Senate ought to be continued ? —I certainly think the Government ought to be represented by the nomination of the principal number of the members of the Senate. Mr. F. de C. Malet was sworn and examined. 4695. The Chairman.] I believe you are one of the governors of Canterbury College ? —I am. 4696. How long have you held that position ?—Since 1876. 4697. Had you any connection with the institution previous to that date ? —Yes; from the incorporation of the College to the time when I was elected to a seat on the Board I was secretary to the College. Before that I was Eegistrar of an institution called the Canterbury Collegiate Union ; and for about two 3*ears I was Eegistrar of the New Zealand University. 4695. Would you describe what the Collegiate Union was ? —lt was an amalgamated body composed of a number of tho Fellows of Christ's College and of the Trustees of the Canterbury Museum, which was incorporated under an Ordinance of tho Provincial Council, before the Museum became part of the College. 4699. Did I understand you to say that you were the original Eegistrar of the University of New Zealand ? —I succeeded Mr. Mainwaring, who was the first Eegistrar; and Mr. Maskell, the present holder of the office, was my successor. 4700. In your opinion does Canterbury College give that degree of University education which is desirable in a place like Christchurch ? —As far as it goes. 4701. Is there any deficiency in the system of education provided ?—The staff of the College is hardly what it should be in point of number. 4702. In what particular branch of education is there a deficiency?— The Board have had under consideration the endowment of other Chairs which they have deemed necessary, but have been unable to carry out their intention for want of funds. I do not know that any complete scheme has been prepared. The scheme would have been completed had there been sufficient funds at the disposal of the Board. 4703. Then I understand you to say that the present funds are, in your opinion, not adequate for the establishment of a sufficient number of professorships ? —Not a sufficient number for the purposes of the College proper. 4701. With regard to the New Zealand University, do you think it has assumed that position which is most favourable for promoting University education iv the colony ?—No, I should say not, as far as I am capable of forming an opinion.

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4705. In what way does it fall short of your idea of what a University should be ? —ln the mixing up of secondary education with University education there is one ground of objection—l refer to the affiliation of secondary schools. 4706. Do I understand, then, that you disapprove of the attempt to combine in the same institution secondary or grammar-school education with University education ? —I do. 4707. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the constitution of the Now Zealand University would be improved by granting to the collegiate institutions some power of representation by the election of members to the Senate ?—Yes, I do. 4708. Do you think it advisable that, in any case, the Government should nominate some members of the Senate ? —I think so. 4709. But the Government should not have that power exclusively ?—No. 4710. Dr. Hector.] With reference to affiliated institutions, do you think it undesirable, in parts of the colony where there is no institution devoted solely to higher education, that holders of junior scholarships should continue their studies, if they can do so successfully, at what you may term secondary schools —affiliated institutions ? Junior scholarships are granted by the University. They can be held at affiliated institutions. If a grammar school, say, in a place like Wellington or Auckland, is the only institution where higher education can be got, in the upper forms, do you see any objection to the holder of a junior scholarship continuing his studies at that school, if the result shows that he is able to pass the examinations and get his degree ?—lf it should have the effect of placing those schools on the same footing as other institutions which confined themselves solely to University education I think it would be a mistake. 4711. But in what way does the affiliation of such institutions affect the University or the other colleges injuriously? —In the way I have already mentioned. I think it is a mixing of superior education and secondary education together which is objectionable. 4712. But if the result went to show that the scholars could take their degrees, would that not be sufficient proof to your mind that it was beneficial as far as it went ? —I have already said that the system of mixing up secondary and University education together in one building is, to my mind, objectionable. 4713. Professor Cook.] Do you not think that such a system of mixing up University and secondary education in the one institution is likely to lead to a conflict between such institutions and those solely devoted to University work, in the matter of the standard for degrees and other examinations ?—I should say that would be one of the effects. 4714. Are you aware whether such has been the case in New Zealand under the present system ? —I have heard it very freely said. I have not gone into the subject myself. I believe that the mixing together of secondary and University education has in Christchurch given rise to confusion in the public mind. 4715. Professor Shand.] Do you think that the junior scholarship examination is quite on a level with the instruction which is given in the highest forms of the grammar schools ? —I could not answer that question definitely. 4716. Would you infer that that was the case from the fact that very few junior scholarships have been awarded for the last three years ?—Yes. 4717. Then, if that is the case, do you think it is advantageous for the junior scholars to remain for two or three years longer in the classes of the grammar schools? —Certainly not." 4718. Do you think that the fact that these schools have been affiliated has tended to cut off the supply from the institutions that really furnish University instruction ? I mcau, do you think that the fact that nearly all the grammar schools throughout New Zealand have been affiliated to the University has tended to cut off the supply of students from institutions that have been established with the view of providing University instruction ? —Yes. 4719. Are you aware whether the pass examination for degrees is very much higher than the standard of tho examination for the junior scholarships ? —I am aware that it is higher. 4720. The Chairman.] Do you think the parents are generally satisfied with the University education given in Canterbury College ? —I should say they had every reason to be so. 4721. Are you aware what endowments are held by Canterbury College ? —Yes; I am conversant with the revenues of the College. 4722. What is the annual revenue ? —I could not give exact figures without a reference to papers. There is a reserve for superior education; part of the funds derived from the reserves for technical science are appropriated for the purposes of the College proper; and there are the classical-school reserves. 4723. In your opinion, has Canterbury College got a sufficient revenue for carrying out a full system of University education ?—No ; not the College proper. 4724. Dr. Hector.] Has it sufficient annual revenue for what it undertakes at present?— For what it does at present, as far as I remember, in the estimates for the year 1879, there is a credit balance of £100. That is with the staff as it at present exists; but, as I said before, Ido not consider the staff is complete by any means. 4725. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Do you think the staff is sufficiently remunerated ? —I do not. 4726. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the deficiency to which you have just referred common to all the operations conducted in every department by the Board of Governors ? —No. 4727. Is there, in your judgment, an excess of income over necessary expenditure in any one department ? —ln the School of Agriculture the endowments are, in my opinion, certainly in excess of any reasonable requirements. 4728. Do you know if the Board of Governors has any project prepared for the expenditure of that money according to the terms of the trust ?—According to the Ordinance under which Canterbury College is incorporated, the revenues of each reserve have to be kept apart, and spent on the objects for which the reserve was made. 4729. Professor Cook.] As a governor of the College, what is your opinion of that arrangement ? —I think it is an injudicious one.

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4730. What would you propose instead ?—I think the body intrusted with the expenditure of the money should be allowed to apply it, as they may find necessary, in the various departments of the College. There were originally three large reserves granted, respectively, for superior education, a school of technical science, and a school of agriculture. According to the terms of the Ordinance, the funds derived from each reserve are tied up to the objects of that reserve. For instance, the funds derived from the School of Agriculture reserve are ear-marked to that particular institution. The endowments for the public library, I think, are insufficient. It is impossible to do justice to the public in respect of the library. There are no means also for forming a library within the College walls; and there is a necessity for increasing the staff of the College. 4731. Dr. Hector.] What was the object of consolidating all these endowments in one Ordinance ? Were they originally distinct ? —They were originally distinct, and have always been kept distinct, in accordance with the clause of the Ordinance. 4732. Professor Cook.] The only point is that they are managed by one Board ?—Yes; under a Provincial Ordinance. 4733. Dr. Hector.] They were originally distinct endowments for distinct objects ; and I understand that the only point of union among them is that they are now controlled by one Board ?—-They are controlled by one Board ; but, as I said before, the reserves were made for superior education, for the endowment of'a school of technical science and museum and library, and for a school of agriculture. 4734. And your ground for considering it would be advisable that the income from these should be transferred from one account to another is simply founded on the fact that they are now all under the one control, and not on any similarity in the objects, or identity in the original endowments ?—No; they are part of the revenues of Canterbury College. The moneys derived from these reserves form a portion of the revenues of Canterbury College, the management of which is intrusted to the Board of Governors ; but, by the Ordinance under which they are administered, the Board is bound to apply the revenues to the purposes of the reserve from which they derive the money. 4735. Do I understand that you think that arrangement is objectionable ?—-I think it is objectionable in so far as one department of the College may be short of funds while another portion has a surplus revenue. 4736. Do you see any necessary connection between a college for higher education and an agricultural school, supposing they had been placed under different Boards of management?— Scientific agriculture is a branch of learning. 4737. I mean any connection which would warrant funds voted for the one purpose being applied to the other ? —The funds in question are the revenues of the College; they have been handed to the College for the purposes already mentioned ; and I fail to see why the College Board should not be allowed to administer the funds, and assist any department that might require aid. 4738. Professor Cook.] Do you not think that, for tho sake of economy, it is highly desirable that the agricultural trust should be in the hands of the Board of Governors ? For example, is it not tho case that part of the teaching that will necessarily have to be given in the Canterbury College can advantageously be performed by officers of Canterbury College ? —I presume that will be so. I believe it is the intention of the Board that instruction to agricultural students should be given by some of the professors or lecturers of the College. The Eegistrar and officers employed in other departments do the work of the Agricultural School; and it would necessarily greatly increase the expense of that institution if it had a separate Board, secretary, and officers. 4739. Dr. Hector.] If the Agricultural School paid Canterbury College for the work it did in its behalf, it would be a material assistance to Canterbury College ? —The Agricultural School contributes now a proportion of the general expenses of the College ; it makes a grant in aid to the College for the services it receives from the officials of the College. 4740. And it would not be from motives of economy —from the Agricultural School point of view —that any appropriation of its funds for tho purposes of the Canterbury College would be useful ? It would not diminish the expenses of the Agricultural School to apply its funds to the Canterbury College proper? —If you take £500 a year out of a sum of money, I presume it does diminish the fund. Still, I am of opinion that the existing arrangement is the most economical one for the Agricultural School. 4741. But you get an equivalent for the £500, I understand ?—The school gets the services of the lecturers and of the officials of the College. 4742. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is it your view that the Agricultural School and Canterbury College avoid duplication of lecturers, professors, and other officers by their union ? —That is what I am endeavouring to convey to the Commission. 4743. Professor Cook.] Then there would be a great saving of public expenditure by the agricultural trust remaining under the Board of Governors for the present ?—As a matter of fact, it is so. 4744. Dr. Hector.] Which would get the best of the bargain—that is the question? Is the service which is rendered at the present time by the Canterbury College to the School of Agriculture equal to £500 a year ? —More, I should say. 4745. The Chairman.] In the establishment of the Agricultural School, has there been any diversion from the original College trust ?—Not that I am aware of. 4746. The endowment for the Agricultural School was a specific endowment for that purpose, and no inroad, I understand, was made on the College endowment by the establishment of the Agricultural School ?—No. A reserve of something over 100,000 acres was made for the endowment of a school of agriculture, and the revenue, as far as I know, has been appropriated purely and simply for the purposes of the Agricultural School. 4747. And the Canterbury College has really no claim upon that endowment on the ground of its having been intended in any way for its benefit ? I understand the reserve was specifically granted for an agricultural school ? —Yes. It was specifically granted for a school of agriculture, and made about the same time that the other reserves were made.

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4748. Professor Cook.] But, because the Canterbury College had the management of the agricultural trust estate, did it not enter into engagements in the way of appointing a Professor of Chemistry ? Was not special prominence given to chemistry, because this estate waa managed by the College ? —I may say that the first professor appointed was a Professor of Chemistry, having regard to that fact; and special prominence was given to agricultural chemistry in the memorandum that was sent to England. The Commissioners appointed to choose the Professor of Chemistry were specially informed that he would have to teach chemistry —a great point was made of it —as applied to agriculture. Those words were used in the memorandum. 4749. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does the inequality of income as between the several departments of Canterbury College originate in any expressed intention of those who gave the endowments ?—The land was reserved by resolution of the Provincial Council in 1872. The College Ordinance was passed in 1873, and the three reserves of 100,000 acres each were made on the presumption, I suppose, that they would be placed on terms of equality. When the Ordinance was passed a clause was inserted directing the Board of Governors to keep the revenues distinct, the expectation no doubt being that as an equal acreage had been reserved for the three objects the revenues would be fairly equal. Had it not been for the sale of land, the revenues to all intents and purposes would have been equal, I believe, to within a few pounds. The revenues before any land was sold averaged about £1,000 a year from each reserve. 4750. And, as a matter of fact, the lands belonging to the agricultural trust have found earlier and readier sale than those belonging to the other trusts, and to that cause the present inequality is due ? —Tes ;it was the last reserve made, and all these reserves were made from purely pastoral country. The Agricultural School reserve was made in a certain valley which was at that time almost inaccessible, but the land turned out to be suitable for the purposes of agriculture. 4751. Professor Cook.] Prom your knowledge of the character of the reserves for the College proper, is it likely that there will be any very large increase of revenue owing to the sale of any of these lands ? —Of the reserves for superior education, I should say little, if any, would be bought at the present price of £2 an acre. I know the country. 4752. Professor Shand.] And with reference to the remaining part of the endowment for the Agricultural School, do you think a considerable portion of it is likely to be sold? —I should say not. By far the larger portion of the land sold has been out of one run in a valley called the Hakateramea, and from inquiries I have made, I believe that land fit for agricultural purposes is mostly exhausted. Very little, if any, has been bought out of the other endowments, which form part of a run of Mr. Campbell's in the far back country. 4753. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that the power which has been granted to sell these endowment reserves has been on the whole beneficial to the permanent interests of Canterbury College ? —I should say so. 4754. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Do you think it would be carrying out the intention of the Provincial Council if the income from the lands set apart for superior education and for a school of agriculture were fairly divided between the two objects, so as to make the income of one the same as the income of the other ? —I gather the intention from the fact that these reserves were made of equal acreage, and at the time yielding almost an equal rent. The power to sell the reserves, by which the revenues of the School of Agriculture have been increased, was obtained from the General Assembly subsequently. 4755. Dr. Hector.] What steps have been taken by the Board of Governors towards establishing a school of agriculture ? I understand a Director has been appointed ? —A Director has been appointed; contracts to the extent of about £10,000 have been let for buildings ; a farm has been purchased at considerable cost; and the Board has passed a resolution for the endowment of scholarships. 4756. In selecting the gentleman to fill the position of Director, was it not one of his chief qualications that he was able to teach agricultural chemistry ? —I am not a member of the School of Agriculture Committee, but I believe the gentleman who holds the office is a chemist. Dr. Powell, P.L.S., was sworn and examined. 4757. The Chairman.] Tou are a member of the medical profession, practising in Christchurch ?— I am. J 4758. I believe you hold a degree ?—I hold the degree of M.D. of the Heidelberg University. 4759. And I think you are one of the lecturers in Canterbury College ?—I am. 4760. How long have you held the office of lecturer ?—Since the foundation of the College. Before that I was lecturer for the Canterbury Collegiate Union, out of which the College may be said to have taken its rise. 4761. Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability, or feasibility, of establishing a medical school in Christchurch ?—Tes. 4762. Would you state your views on the point ?—I think it is feasible, provided we had sufficient funds. There are certainly not sufficient funds to enable a school to bo started at present. A scheme for the establishment of a medical school was sketched out some time ago, under which the services of the various lecturers would be mainly gratuitous; but subsequent events have shown, I think, that that is not feasible. I think it would be necessary to pay the lecturers sufficiently well to make it worth their while to lecture —in fact, to have a sufficient hold over them. The materials here, I think, are sufficient for the purpose. We have a hospital containing over 120 beds. I think there would be plenty of opportunities of studying anatomy here, aud I think that courses of lectures could be delivered on the different subjects. 4763. Have you formed any opinion as to whether there ought to be one medical school for the whole colony, or more than one ? —Not more than one for each Island, certainly. 4764. Dr. Hector.] Why do you divide the two Islands ? Is it on account of the distance ?—Tes, simply on account of the distance. 4765. It is the same distance from Wellington to Christchurch as it is from Otago?—Tes ; but the distance from Auckland here would be considerable, or from Auckland to Otago. 30— H. 1.

Mr. de C. Malet. April 17,1879.

Dr. Powell.

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4766. Tou think the additional passage of a day or two in a steamer, or a single day in the railway, would be sufficient to make it necessary to have two schools, without any other reason ?—I do not think it is necessary j 1 think it is advisable. In Great Britain the Irish and Scotch students pret'er to study in their own "Universities, aud the facilities for travelling are greater there. The distance which students have to go from home enters into consideration. 4767. Perhaps you are talking with regard to the future, when the population may he larger than at present?—To a considerable extent that enters into one's consideration. At the present time, perhaps, it would be better to have a single school for both Islands, but I certainly think that in the future it would be more advisable to have one for each Island. 4768. The Chairman.] If such schools were established in New Zealand do you think students could complete their medical education in the colony?—I think so. 4769. And become qualified to obtain degrees ?—Yes ; I think so. 4770. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know whether any steps have been taken in Otago towards the institution of a medical school?—I only know from the Calendar. I see that they have a Professor of Anatomy there, Professor Scott; but I really do not know much more about it than that. 4771. Dr. Hector.] What part of a medical course is in operation in Canterbury College as part of the arts course ?—Chemistry, zoology, and botany. 4772. "Would not zoology and botany require to be divided to meet the requirements of the General Medical Council ?—Tes ; I think they would. 4773. Bey. W. J. Habens^] Do you include physiology and anatomy under zoology and botany ?— Practically you may say there is no physiology and anatomy taught in Canterbury College—not such as would enter into a medical course. 4774. Dr. Hector.] Are any of the lecturers in these subjects gentlemen who would be likely to obtain recognition by degree-granting Universities at Home, in the same way that lecturers in the Otago University have obtained recognition ? —Tes, I think so. 4775. Tou say there is ample material for teaching practical anatomy to be obtained here ?—I think so —plenty. 4776. Arc there any appliances in the College buildings suitable, or would they require to be added ? —I understand that the Government havo now in hand a mortuary, with a dissecting-room attached to it, at the hospital. Through some mistake, I think, it was intended to make that an operating-room, but of course there could be no operating room attached to a dead-house—it could only be available as a dissecting-room; and that is actually commenced, I believe. 4777. What number of students will it accommodate ?—As well as I can remember, it will accommodate seventeen students. 4778. That is, three subjects ? —No, two subjects. It would accommodate those easily, I think, speaking only from memory. 4779. How long do you think it would be before the remaining classes required for a medical curriculum here could be established ? Would it require appointments to be made from outside ? —I think the majority could be filled up from here. 4780. Do you think it would be advisable to start giving medical degrees before they are recognized out of the colony ? —No. 4781. Do you think it would be better that the University should wait until the degrees are accepted at Home, and the curriculum prescribed ?—That would depend on the course of legislation at Home. If there is any prospect of immediate legislation on the subject, as there seems to be, I think it would be better to defer prescribing the curriculum. "But if there should be any appearance of the matter being likely to be put off indefinitely, then I think we had better not wait. 4782. But adopt a degree which would only have a colonial significance?—Tes. It is so in Melbourne, yet their degree is highly thought of by the profession. 4783. Supposing it were decided to proceed at once to establish degrees having only colonial significance, do you think it would be better to obtain men to fill the Chairs—for the practical teaching of medicine —from the Old Country, and induce them to devote the whole of their time, except perhaps that required for a consulting practice, to the performance of their duties as lecturers, or for the College to avail itself of the teaching power of the place ? —I thiuk that, iv the practical part of the teaching— medicine, surgery, midwifery, and so on, it would be better that use should be made of the teaching power which exists iv the place ; but with regard to at least two subjects—general anatomy and physiology, and surgical anatomy and dissections —I think it would be better that there should be professors who would devote their whole time to teaching. I think the time required at the hands of professors of those subjects under the modern method of teaching is greater than can be given by a man who is in practice. 4784. Tou think that a general practitioner who had been for many years in this colony would be sufficiently on a level with the present state of,medical science to give the best class of instruction to students? I ask the question because it is generally supposed that there is a deficiency of certain diseases in this colony, a knowledge of which is very important, but which cannot be studied; the ordinary practitioner here has no familiarity with them ? —Witb regard to that, I think the samo thing exists everywhere. Even the teachers of high reputation in English schools have their specialities, on which they are very well informed, and have seen very little practice in many important branches of the profession. 4785. From your knowledge of the circumstances of the colony, do you think it would be possible to combine into one medical school the teachers from Otago and Christchurch, so that the course should be partly taken in one place and partly in the other?—l do not think it is impracticable, but I think it is hardly desirable. 4786. Has such a scheme suggested itself to you for consideration ? —No. 4787. The Chairman.] If a medical school were established in Christchurch, do you think a fair number of students would be obtainable, so as to warrant the keeping up of such a school ? —I. think

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bo. I suppose students would come from elsewhere. I have heard of several inquiries in Christchurch from fathers of sons, as to whether there was any hope of starting such a school: in fact, one or two young men have been sent to England. 4788. At present, parents wishing their sons to enter the medical profession are obliged to send them out of the colony to obtain the necessary education?—Tes. 4789. And you are aware that that has taken place iv Canterbury?—Tes. 4790. According to a scale that was laid before us the fees would come to about £50 per annum. Do you think the payment of that sum for three years would be any obstacle in the way of parents giving their children a medical education? —I think that amount is very moderate. 4791. Tou do not think it would be so excessive as to prevent parents from putting their sons into the medical profession ? —-No. I cannot exactly recollect what the annual fee was at St. Bartholomew's, the school at which I was educated, but I know you could compound for three years for £90, which would be £30 a year. Well, I think the difference between that sum and £50 here is very moderate, compared with the large expenditure which wouid be incurred in sending students out of the colony. I thiuk the scale proposed is quite moderate. 4792. Dr. Hector.] In the constitution of the New Zealand University there is no mention of degrees in science. It has been suggested that they would be a useful addition to the powers of the University. Have you formed any opinion on the subject ? —I think they would be a useful addition. 4793. To what purpose would the degree bo applied ? I mean, for what reason would it bo sought by students?—l think that many students have proclivities in the direction of science, and would eagerly endeavour to obtain a degree for which the education would be largely of a scientific nature but who shun more particularly a severe study of languages. 4794. What standard of classical attainments would you propose to require for this degree of science?—l should make Latin compulsory to a certain extent, but not to the extent required by the B.A. degree. Mathematics would certainly be made compulsory —I thiuk even to the extent of the B.A. degree. 4795. Would you make it an alternative degree to classics, the distinguishing feature in an arts course ? —Tes. 479 G. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the examinations conducted by the University of New Zealand in the natural sciences are of a satisfactory kind ?—I have thought, as the examinations are now conducted, that the teaching in natural science and physical science wholly fails of its aim. 4797. What is the chief defect in the examinations ? —The present method of examination simply by papers is, to a great extent, a test of memory. I think that, in order that the object and aim of physical and natural science teaching should be attained, the examination should be partly practical and viva voce. 4798. Could you obtain that with a simultaneous examination conducted at different places ?—I think so. 4799. Tou could with regard to specimens—that is done in the ease of the Cambridge local examinations; but how would you manage the viva voce part ? —I think the examination by specimens, and so on, should be viva voce. Tho practical knowledge of the student cannot, in my opinion, be tested by mere dry specimens. 4800. The inconvenience of conducting examinations at different places simultaneously in that way would not be greater than the advantage gained ? —I do not think so. I think the advantage would be very great; and I certainly thiuk that if there is to be anything like a science degree it will be absolutely necessary. 4800 a. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that in granting technical degrees the candidates should all be brought up to one place for examination, aud that the examination should be conducted as it would be in a University at Home ? Havo you thought of it in that way ?—I have thought of it, but I cannot say I have made up my mind on the matter. 4801. Do you think that, when people are brought from different parts of the colony to shoot rifles at the same target, it would not be equally useful to bring men together to answer the same examination papers before the same examiners in subjects which may affect their future life?—l am not thinking of the mere inconvenience of the plan ; but the natural sciences are so very wide that, if they are to be taught thoroughly, it seems to me that in some of the departments there must be an indication from the teacher, for the assistance of the examiner, as to the scope of his teaching. The present method of teaching natural science with Nicholson's text-book is to give a general skim over the whole subject, which a student can get up in a few months, and he can pass a very good examination and know absolutely nothing of the subject. 4502. The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion as to whether the University of New Zealand, as it at present exists, has assumed the form most suited to the requirements of the colony as regards superior education ? —I think that there should be one University for New Zealand, and that endowed colleges should be affiliated to the University in the different centres of population, such as Christchurch, Dunedin, "Wellington, aud Auckland. I think there should be a larger representation of the teaching element upon the Senate of the University ; and I think that the examinations should be conducted in the colony. 4803. And, I presume, that the teaching should be done in the colleges, and that the University should be merely an examining body ? —Tes.

Dr. Powell.

April 17, 1879.

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H.—l. 236 Feidat, 18ra Apeil, 1879. Pbesent: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E,, in the chair. Professor Brown, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand. Dr. Hector, Mr. C. C. Bowest, M.H.E., was sworn and examined. 4804. The Chairman.] I believe you have been connected with Canterbury from its earliest days ? —Yes. 4805. You are one of the governors of Canterbury College ? —Yes. 4806. How long have you held that position ?—I was chairman of the Collegiate Union, from which the Canterbury College originated, and I was one of the first governors of the College appointed under the Ordinance. I was a governor in 1874, when I resigned on taking office in the Government, and was re-elected in 1878. 4807. Do you think that Canterbury College gives that degree of University education that a community like Christchurch requires ?—I think it is doing as much now as could be expected, considering how recently it has been instituted ; and that it is doing almost as much as, at the present moment, is called for by the circumstances of the country. 4808. Professor Shand.] Are there a sufficient number of secondary schools in this part of the country to supply Canterbury College with a good set of students ? —There is only one secondary school at present in Canterbury, and that is in Cliristchurch—Christ's College Grammar School. 4809. Are you aware whether a considerable number of the students of Canterbury College come from that secondary school ?—-I do not think I should say a considerable number —a certain number, not a great many. But there will be more each year. Canterbury College is a new institution, and probably the two have not yet worked in together. Ido not thiuk many parents understand yet how they can obtain here advanced education for their sons by passing them from one institution to tiie other. I think too many are in the habit of fancying that their sons' education is completed after they have done a little schooling. ' 4810. And you think that difficulty is now diminishing ?—I think it is, and that it is calculated to diminish. 4811. The Chairman.] Are you in any way connected with Christ's College ?—Yes ; I am a member of the governing body. 4812. Erom your position as a governor of both institutions do you think there is any lack of harmony between Canterbury College and Christ's College?—No, Ido not think there is. I think there was such a tendency at one time, and that, through a misunderstanding, there might have been a little jealousy ; but that has worn off, and it is more and more understood that each has its own sphere of usefulness. My own opinion is very distinct, and 1 have often stated it in my place on both Boards, that the best work that can be done at Christ's College is that of a grammar school, and the fellows would do best by concentrating their efforts towards making it a good grammar school. My own belief is that it would make an excellent one, and that, considering the circumstances of the colony and the great difficulties in maintaining the school in the early days, Christ's College Grammar School has done remarkably well. 4813. Professor Shand.] Holding these views, do you think that Christ's College ought to withdraw from affiliation with the University ?—I do. I was never in favour of the affiliation myself. But I am bound to say there was a reason for it. The reason that tho affiliation was considered necessary by the Christ's College governors was that, owing to the early age at which University scholarships were competed for, their scholars, if they obtained scholarships, were withdrawn from the school before they had completed their school education. That was, I believe, really the reason. lam not authorized to say so, but my own belief is that the Christ's College authorities would not care so much about the affiliation if the age at which University scholarships are competed for were altered. 4814. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is it your opinion that the age should be altered ?—Tes; it is distinctly my opinion. I think fifteen too early an age for University teaching. 4815. What minimum age would you be disposed to fix ? —I think that, if the teaching is to be real University teaching, the age ought to be seventeen; but under no circumstances ought the minimum age to be under sixteen. 4816. Professor Shand.] And I suppose you bear in mind that a scholar need not be of the minimum age —that, in fact, if there were a great competition the tendency would be to raise the age of the successful competitors very much above the minimum ?—Tes ; that is the case. But, practically, at first there is not such great competition, and, as some of the best-taught of the very young men or boys were at Christ's College Grammar School, the mischief occasioned by the early age was felt at once in that school. 4817. I remind you of that, because if the minimum age were fixed at seventeen the tendency of competition might be to raise the average age to eighteen or nineteen ? —I am inclined to think there ought to be a maximum age as well as a minimum. Ido not think young men of any age ought to be allowed to compete. 4818. What is your opinion regarding the examinations that have been set for junior scholarships ? —I have not examined them sufficiently to be able to give a direct opinion now ; but I think there is a tendency to make scholarships rather competitions for honours than aids to younger boys to get a higher education. In fact, I very much doubt the expediency, so long as our teaching staffs are not complete, of spending large sums on these prizes. 4819. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you be disposed, then, to make the scholarship examination rather a pass examination, in which the prizes would goto the best, than an examination with a certain high standard which must be reached ? —Tes ; that is my opinion with regard to scholarships—that it ought not so much to be an honour examination.

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4820. Professor Brown.] Do you approve of scholarships as a whole—scholarships in the ordinarysense, such as the provincial scholarships are here ?—The more I see of them the less I care for them. They may be overdone. I believe that, if we could only get at the old idea of scholarships, and knew how to confer them where they were most wanted, it would be an advantage. Scholarships did more good when they were looked upon as aids to poor scholars. The difficulty is to know how to apportion them under such conditions. 4821. It is a difficulty in this country too ? —Tes ; but I am quite sure they would do more good thus bestowed than under this competitive system. 4822. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you not think that a kind of democratic idea of equality, which exists here, would make it almost impossible to establish an invidious distinction between poor candidates and others ? —I think it would be more difficult here. At the same time I can see perfectly well that the scholarships very often go to those who want them least. 4823. Professor Shand.] Do you not think it would be objectionable to attach the stigma of poverty to a scholarship ? —Tes, I do. I know that is a difficulty. But I think the evil is intensified by making the examinations too severe. I would rather fix a limited age, and not make them so severe. 1. or instance, if there were two or three scholarships, I would rather let them be competed for by youths of different ages over seventeen, so as to give a chance to boys of different ages, and I would require accuracy rather than extent of information. Supposing there were Eour scholarships, and the ages were between seventeen and twenty-one, I would rather give one for boys of seventeen, one for youths of eighteen, one for youths of nineteen, and so on, than allow them all to be competed for together, so as to let the boys who had crammed longest have tho best chance for them all. 4824. Dr. Hector.] Then you would make those different scholarships tenable for different periods ? —Tes. 4825. The one for boys of eighteen for a shorter period?—l do not know that; because I think they ought all to be annually renewable on proof of steady reading. 4826. Professor Brown.] But you would make the attainments different at each stage ? —Tes. 4827. Then is this plan to give a chance to the less-trained boy ?—Tes. I think that there are two objections to a large expenditure on scholarships : one is that, where we have such limited means for increasing the teaching power, it is giving too great an advantage to the ablest boys, and diminishing the chance of education for those who are less able, —because I believe that we shall not have funds for a long time to bring up the teaching power to anything like what it ought to be. Then, again, I really think it is a system of giving prizes to those whose parents can best afford to have their sons crammed. 4828. Dr. Hector.] "When you say the funds are insufficient, are you talking of the colony generally ?—Tes. I believe we have not sufficient money to keep up adequate teaching staffs, and as long as that is the case I do not think we have a right to expend the funds in prizes. 4829. Professor Shand.] Do your remarks refer to all grades of education—primary and secondary education ? —To a great extent, although I do not say that a few scholarships may not be advisable. I would not be so much against them if we could, without creating any invidious distinction, devise a scheme for assisting boys who are really studious, and who perhaps may not have had the very best chance of being trained for a scholarship. There are cases in which parents, who do not want them at all, put their sons in training for Government scholarships. They are quite right in desiring that their sons should win the honour of the thing. They go to the expense of putting their sons into regular training, and cut out industrious boys whose parents cannot afford to give them an education but who are quite deserving of it. 4830. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Then, in your opinion, the fitness of a boy to compete for a scholarship will often depend simply on social and family advantages ? —Certainly. 4831. Professor Broivn.] Does this not exist in other countries ?—Tes ; and I think there was a good deal to be said for certain local scholarships that have been abolished at Home. Now that the scholarships are upon what is considered a more liberal basis, it turns out that the effect is to diminish more and more the chances of those who have not the very first educational advantages. 4832. Bey. W. J. Habens.] So that the democratic idea rather leads to aristocratic privileges in the end ? —Tes, I think so. 4833. The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion as to the propriety of combining grammarschool education and University education in the one institution ? —I am very much opposed to such a combination. I think it is a very great mistake. So far as I can judge, it would certainly lead to the deterioration of both. 4834. With regard to the governing body of Canterbury College, do you think the present mode of appointing the governors is a satisfactory one? —It is certainly not satisfactory; and yet, before collegiate bodies are really established, in the proper sense of the word, it is very hard to know what the constituency should be. 4835. Do you think the professors of the College ought to be represented on the Board of Governors at present ?—Tes, I think they ought. The teaching power ought to be represented. I think also that, as soon as there are a sufficient number of them, the graduates ought to be represented on the Board. This, of course, is provided for. 4836. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the provision of the Ordinance under which the College was founded, by which the control of the College will by-and-by fall entirely into the hands of graduates of the University who are members of the College, is a satisfactory one ?—No ; I do not thiuk it ought to be entirely iv the hands of the graduates. As I said before, the groat difficulty is to discover what the constituency should be. It ought to be a mixed one, and it would require a great deal of care and judgment to select it. There is no doubt that as the College grows the constitution of the governing body will have to be modified from time to time. We cannot make a cut-and-dried constitution. lam not prepared to say that you could immediately, before there is a stron^ body of graduates, establish a thoroughly satisfactory constituency.

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4837. Dr. Hector.] Do you know of any precedent where the governing body of a college, as opposed to a University, is elected directly by graduates ? —No. 4838. Do you think the adoption of that method was merely following the mode of election to the Senate of a University ?—I do not exactly know how it arose, but I know there was very great dilliculty at the time in trying to discover a good scheme. It was felt that it would not do to leave the constitution of the governing body permanently as it at present exists ; and the Ordinance was an attempt to make a provision for giving the College the power of self-government by-and-by ; but it was a crude attempt. I think the graduates aud professors should have a share in the nomination of the Council. 4839. If the governing body were made to include some persons who derived emolument from the College, would you think it proper to impose restrictions upon them in the exercise of their powers as members ?—Yes; so far as finance goes. Ido not think it advisable or convenient that they should deal with all questions of finance. 4540. Do you think it advisable that the management of the original endowments should be in the hands of trustees, and separate from the ordinary management?— Yes; I think so. 4841. Do you think the Board should be quite distinct.—l have not thought that matter out, and would not like to say exactly how it ou^ht to be done. I think there will be great difficulty about it. As I said before, my opinion is that the system of college government must grow gradually—that we shall not be able to make a constitution now. I think what we could do at present is to bring an element of representation into the present constitution; that we should give the professors a voice in the governing body, and give the existing graduates, as they come in—without waiting until there are a certain number —a small proportionate voice. Tn that way we might improve the constitution of the Board without attempting to make a constitution affecting finality. 4. 42. Prufessor Shand] Considering that the museum and the public library and other institutions are under the Board of Governors of Canterbury College, do you not think the public ought to be represented in some way? —I would rather that the public were represented through the Government by nomination than by popular election. Ido not think popular election is at all a proper system for a collegiate body of any kind. 4843. The Chairman.] Do you think that the University of New Zealand has assumed that form most suitable to the circumstances of the colony—l mean, being merely an examining body ? —I do not think that under ihe present circumstances of.the country any other form would be satisfactory. I do not quite know how the University could be a teaching body, under existing circumstances. 4844. From your knowledge of the colony, do you think that University education is fairly extended throughout the length and breadth of New Zealand? —No, it is not. My impression is that at present what would meet, to a certain extent, the requirements of the colony would be that there should be two more colleges established, endowed with lands—and I know there are lands which could be set aside for the purpose —one at Wellington, and another at Auckland. "With four colleges, comprising the Otago University, Canterbury College, a college at Wellington, and one at Auckland, 1 think, for tbe present, the requirements of the colony would be met. 4845. Professor Shand.] If you had four such colleges for superior education, do you think it would be advisable to incorporate them into a single University, which would also be a teaching University? —It comes very much to the same thing, if they are affiliated to the University. 4846. I do not mean affiliated to the University, but incorporated with the University, so as to form a single body ?—That is a difference in name, but practically would it not result in the same thing? If they were nominally incorporated it would mean practically that each pursued its own course, and that the University supervised them. 4847. Tho difference is this: that at present, with outside examiners, the teaching is apt to be made subordinate to the examinations; but if the teaching and examining bodies are virtually the same, the examinations would be made subordinate to the teaching. Which of these cases would in your opinion be preferable?—ily own impression is' that the system of the London University, with modifications, is best adapted to our circumstances. I think that tho University might so arrange the examinations and the examiners as to meet the necessities of the different colleges, perhaps a little more than has been the case. 4848. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you be in favour of allowing the colleges as such, or certain officers or authorities of each college, to be represented by certain members of their own election on the Senate of the University ? •—Yes ; that might be very advisable. It might to some extent meet the view which is put in the question of Professor Shand. 4849. Dr. Hector.] Would you include within the province of such a body the control of the local expenditure of each college ?—No ; I would leave the expenditure of each college entirely to its own governing body. Ido not think the University ought to interfere in that. 4850. Do you think there could be any passible advantage in allowing distinct colleges in different parts of the colony to follow each its own course of study, and grant independent degrees?— The great objection to that would be that the degrees would become comparatively valueless. As it is, it will be an uphill fight for a young colony like this to make its degrees respected ; and I think that, if there were three or four degree-granting bodies in a small colony like New Zealand, the degrees would become almost valueless, 4851. Do you think there would be any indirect advantages, in the way of stimulating different kinds of education, that would compensate for that loss iv the value of the degree ?—The competition would be a great deal more wholesome if it led to an effort on the part of every affiliated college to send up the largest number of scholars qualified for degrees. But there would be a strong temptation, I am afraid, to lower the standards, if they had the power to give separate degrees. 4852. You thiuk it is essential, then, that all the graduates should be brought to one examination ? —Yes. 4853. What I mean is that the standard for the different subjects should be the same—that there should be no difference of standard—and that can only be obtained by bringing the graduates to one examination ?—I think so.

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4854. Would it be possible, in your opinion, that different colleges sbould grant tbe same degree upon examination papers prepared by different examiners ? —I am afraid it would not be the same degree. It might be, and it might not be. There would be an uncertainty about it. In Universities at Home' —and I see that in the London University it is the same as at Oxford and Cambridge—the examiners are appointed each year for tho examinations, and I presume it is the same examination throughout for the degree. 4855. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the examinations of one University might be so arranged as to allow for considerable differentiation among the colleges as to the general scope of their work ?—Yes ; any number of subjects could be made optional for a degree. What I mean is that there should be tho same examination for the same subject. 4856. Whilst you are in favour of establishing four colleges throughout the colony, are you of opinion that there shonld be only one body granting degrees ?■—Yes. With regard to the government of the University, Ido not think the present system of nomination of the Senate is satisfactory. lam not speaking now of the machinery. lam talking of the necessity for one examining body, and one degree-giving body. When I said that the present system of having one examining body was the best, I did not mean that I felt satisfied with the present system of nominating the Senate. 4857. The Chairman.] Would you suggest any improvement in the constitution of the Senate ? — I think that the affiliated colleges ought to have a voice in the nomination of the Senate. 4858. Do I understand, from that, that you think the professors in the colleges, which you are of opinion ought to be established, should be on the Senate? —I have already said I thought the teaching staff—the professors—ought to have a voice in the election of the governing bodies of the local colleges. If the colleges had a voice in the election of the Senate the professors would of course also have a voice. If you mean by the question, whether Ihey should personally be members of the Senate, I think it would be more convenient that they should be personally members of the University Senate than, for some reasons, of the local governing bodies, because of the finance question. If they* were elected Ido not see why they should not serve. I should not put a bar to their being on the University Senate. I think that in all these bodies the Government should have a certain amount of nominating power, because of the large amount of money that comes from the public, and because it keeps the public and the House of Eepresentatives interested in the government of these bodies; but the national share of University government should be exercised always by direct nomination, not by popular election. 4859. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the University should have any voice in the appointment of professors in the affiliated colleges ? ■ —■ No. I think it would destroy the energy and the esprit de corps of the colleges if the University had a right to interfere in their internal affairs in that way. 4860. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that the election of the members of the Senate of the University should be made by the governing boards of the colleges rather than by the general body of graduates?— Not entirely ; I said that they should have a voice. 4861. As distinct from the graduates ? — Yes. 4862. You mean that the Senate should be partly nominated, partly elected by the graduates, and partly elected by tbe local governing bodies ?—Yes. I think it will be a long time before we fall into a satisfactory system, and, both with regard to the Senate aud the local governing bodies, any system that we may adopt at present must be tentative. We shall have to feel our way by as much as possible representing the different forces. 4863. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the ad eundem graduates should have exactly the same standing and influence in the University as those who graduate in the University by examination ? — lam inclined to think they should. I know there is a very strong feeling to the contrary, but it is only owing to the exceptional circumstance that at first there were few graduates proper, and a large number of ad eundem graduates, into whose hands the power would be thrown. But when we get to a normal state of things there will be a comparatively* small number of ad eundem graduates; and, if the ad eundem degree means anything, and if it is intended to confer any advautage at all, it should give the same status as is given to the graduate. And I think the admission of ad eundem graduates has this advantage, that it throw's a little fresh blood into the constitution of the governing body, and introduces men with new ideas who have graduated in other places. Of course it would be necessary to take care that the ad eundem degree was not given in a reckless way to persons holding valueless degrees. I quite understand the cry raised against the system at first: the graduates proper would have been swamped by the ad eundem graduates. But that will not be the case in the future. If we are to havo a University representing not only the various interests of the colony, but also the varied learning and the learned experience of other countries, we should encourage graduates of other Universities to take up ad eundem degrees. It would be an advantage rather than a disadvantage that graduates of other Universities of repute and high standing, who have taken the trouble and shown sufficient interest in the matter to obtain ad eundem. degrees, should have a voice in the Grovernment of our University. We want a little exterior light. 4861. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it would be desirable that the restriction which requires the constitution of the Convocation to await the existence of thirty graduates after examination should be removed ? —A reconstitution of the governing body would modify this provision altogether, by bringing other elements into consideration. 4865. Do you think any useful result would arise from bringing Convocation into force at once ? ■ —No; Ido not. When I was speaking of the ad eundem degree, I particularly said that whatever mischief might arise from its influence would be felt at first, before there was a sufficient body of local graduates. But, I confess, I do not think men will care to apply for an ad eundem degree if they are to have no voice in the management of the University when Convocation becomes a reality. Mr. Jonsr Inglis sworn and examined. 4866. The Chairman.] I believe you are Chairman of the Board of Education ?—I am. 4867. How long have you held that position ?—Off and on, for three or four years.

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4868. In your position as Chairman of the Board of Education have you any control over secondary schools ?—None whatever. 4869. Have you anything to do with the Normal School ?—Yes; that is under the control of the Board of Education. 4870. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the arrangement by which the Normal School is placed under the Board of Education is the most satisfactory arrangement that could be made for its control ?—lt is difficult to see how, with the large school attached, it could be otherwise, to work satisfactorily; because the practising school is treated as one of the district schools, and therefore comes directly under the control of the Board of Education. 4871. Do you know of any proposals that have been made at any time for a different management ?—No ; I cannot say I have heard of any. 4872. What difficulties do you see in the way of the Government assuming the control of the Normal School ?—They would be obliged to have some Board or other to control the school; they could not manage it from Wellington, I should think. 4873. The Chairman.] Is there any special endowment for the maintenance of the Normal School ? —Nothing, except the vote from the Government; there is no special endowment. 4874. Does the Board of Education give the school any of the funds which are intrusted to them for administration ? —There is a certain amount given for the training department, which is accounted for separately, and the funds devoted to the practising department are treated as votes for primary schools. 4875. Is there a special vote granted by the General Assembly for the maintenance of the Normal School in Christchurch ? —Yes ; of tho training department. 4876. How much ? —I could not say from memory. I believe it is about £2,000. 4877. Do you think the Normal School fulfils the object for which it was established, in the way of providing teachers for the whole district ?—I think it does, to a considerable extent. 4878. Professor Cook.] Is there any entrance examination at the Normal School for those who wish to enter the training school ? —They must pass the Sixth Standard examination. 4879. At what standard does the Normal School in general aim—l mean, what standard of examination for those who are leaving ? —I can hardly say. 4880. Is it not a fact that the Board of Education has recently had under its consideration the question of bringing the teaching of the Normal School into some sort of relationship with the teaching given at Canterbury College ? —Yes. 4881. Do you know if anything has been done towards that object ?—Nothing special has been done. Tbe report of a Committee which was appointed on the subject was in the direction of utilizing the College as far as possible ; but, except perhaps that some students from the Normal School may have entered the College, I am not aware that much has been done. 4882. Supposing the Normal School aims at enabling its better class of students to pass into a higher class than D, do you think advantage might be taken of the teaching at Canterbury College ? —I think so. 4883. In a general way, if colleges are established at the centres of population, where training schools would naturally be if they were established at all, you think that the superior teaching might he done by the professors and lecturers of the colleges ? —I should think so: in fact some students have been attending Canterbury College. 4884. Should it be the aim of the Board of Education, while the students are in training, to make arrangements by which they should attend lectures at Canterbury College ? —I think so. But tho majority of them are not yet sufficiently advanced to be able to avail themselves profitably of the lectures in the College. 4885. Professor Brown.] Do you think it would be desirable to establish scholarships which would enable normal-school students to take advantage of University education, so as to prepare for the higher-class certificates ?—Yes, I think it would be very desirable. 4886. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does the Board of Education take care that the students in the Normal School shall have sufficient opportunities of practising the art of teaching ?—At jiresent they have too many opportunities, to my mind. 4887. What is your view of the proportion of their time which should be spent in practice ? —I should hardly like to say: a portion of the day certainly. What they are doing now is to send a great body of the students down to the practising department, to the complete interference with their ordinary studies. My idea is that the class of students is such, and is likely to continue to be such, that they ought to have a certain amount of instruction every day, as well as the opportunity of practising. It has been the aim of the Board, since it had charge of the Normal School, to do this to a moderate extent —to give tho students the opportunity of practising. In the early days of the institution very little was done in this direction, and there was only slight control exercised over the students wbo were seeking to learn to teach. A change then took place in the direction of giving them more opportunities of practising, and, for some reason or other—which it is not perhaps necessary to go into here —the Principal increased the practising work of the students, with the result of depriving his assistants of much of their opportunity of teaching the students —that is, giving them lessons. The Principal, in his report, says pretty distinctly that he thinks that is the best plan. Ido not think it agrees with his previous statements, and certainly not with the opinion the Board holds in the matter. The Board has been reorganizing the school, so as to make the practising department in a measure independent of the assistance of the students, and, as far as practicable, to give the students the opportunity, in passing through the different grades, to see the teaching throughout the school aa applied to the standard classes. It is intended, eventually, to dispense with the pupil-teachers. There are a few left, but as their time works out their places will not be supplied ; and it is proposed, with rather a heavier staff for the general teaching, to utilize the students in place of the pupil-teachers. 4888. I understand you to say that the proportion of time which each student who is training now spends in the practice of the art of teaching is, in your judgment, excessive. Is that due to any

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peculiar circumstance in the practising school it. elf ? —I do not think so. As the school is fully officered with expert teachers, there ought, in the judgment of the Board, to be no necessity for the employment of* the students to so large an extent. 4889. Dr. Hector.] Do the children who are practised upon in the Normal School make as good progress as children at other schools ? —I think they do, as a whole. It has been the effort of the Board to see that they do. In fact, the Board have always insisted that the children ought to bo as well taught there as anywhere else. 4890. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the proportion of male students as compared with the number of female students as large as the Board desires ?—No, certainly not. 4591. Have you any opinion as to the best remedy for the disproportion ? —lf there were scholarships instituted, that might get over the difficulty. 4892. Is the sum of £2,000, annually granted for the purposes of the training department, sufficient to allow of any considerable number of scholarships being so given ?—No. 4893. Professor Cook.] Are the Board not able to afford anything at all for scholarships ? —No, I think not. 4894. Tou were asked just now how you thought the disproportion between the sexes might be remedied. Is it a fact that the supply of male teachers is insufficient for the demand ?—Quite insufficient. 4895. Dr. Hector.] Do you know how many in the Normal School are taught the art of teaching annually ?—I could not say what the number was this term. 4896. Do you remember the number last year? —About seventy, I think. 4897. Does that represent the result of the annual expenditure of £2,000? —Tes. 4598. Have these students been there more than one year ?—Some of them have been a few months more. 4599. Be v. W. J. Habens.] "What is the principal item of expenditure out of the sum of £2,000, when the salaries of the teachers in the training department have been provided for ? —Those salaries absorb the greater part of it; the other items are incidental to the country teachers and students being paid tbeir expenses for attending lectures by the Principal on school management, and for attending the drill-instructor's class. 4900. Does the Board propose to continue this expenditure ?—They propose to do so, if the money continues to be paid. 4901. Dr. Hector.] These teachers are outside the number of seventy you mentioned ?—Tes. 4902. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you state what number of teachers have been in the habit of availing themselves of the lectures just referred to ?—I could not say from memory, but a considerable number. 4903. Do you think as many as 150 ?—At the earlier lectures there might have been as many as that. 4904. Do you think that the results of the expenditure upon attendance at those lectures are on the whole satisfactory ? —Many of the teachers seemed satisfied with the instruction conveyed. 4905. Have the Inspectors at any time reported that they saw the good effect of these lectures in the schools? —-Tes ; I think Mr. Bestell has reported to that effect. 4906. Professor Cook.] The Board of Education, I think, established scholarships here to enable children to proceed from primary schools to secondary schools? —Tes. 4907. Do you think the number of those scholarships is sufficient for the demand in the district ?— I think so, on the whole. I think they ought to be enough at present, owing to the comparatively few who are able to pass. If they were made more numerous probably a number of children would be admitted who were hardly up to the mark. 4905. What do you mean by " the comparatively few who are able to pass " ? —That only two or three could take a scholarship. 4909. That is to say, obtain the necessary minimum of marks ? —Tes. On one occasion I think there was only one who succeeded in the highest class. 4910. Do you know whether these children always proceed to a secondary school ? —They have not always done so. 4911. What did they do ?—Since the new Act they have been obliged to attend secondary schools in Christchurch. Formerly the scholarships were spread all over the country, and generally the scholars attended the schools in their own neighbourhood. 4912. Under the sanction of the Board ?—Tes, if the Board thought that the teacher was capable of carrying the child on. Of course, in some cases, the children were very young—eleven years of age —so that the teacher would be competent up to a certain point; but, as I have said, the new Act alters this, and scholars must attend secondary schools. 4913. Then the want of secondary schools in different parts of the district induced the Board to adopt the former plan ? —Tes, it did; they had no other course open. Now, the only schools where they can attend are in Christchurch. 4914. Dr. Hector.] Has the Board established any district high schools?— No. 4915. "Would that meet the want of secondary schools ?—I think it would, to a great extent. 4916. Professor Brown.] We had it in evidence that the scholarships were doing some harm through going to others than those who needed them : do you know if that has been largely the case ? —I do not think there has been a large proportion given in that way; there have been some. The question has been before the Board, and we thought that all citizens had a right to compete for anything of tbat kind. Scholarships are not for paupers, but to assist and encourage talent. 4917. Bey. W. J. Habens.] It has been suggested by one witness who was examined before the Commission that it would be well if the Board of Education grauted some scholarships other than those for Class D, upon examination in classics, among other things. What is your opinion of that suggestion ?—I think it would be a very good plan. But there is very little work of that kind done in any of the district schools, so that the scholarships would be confined to only two or three until high schools were established over the country. 31— H. 1.

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4918. Professor Cook.] Is the examination conducted exclusively on the subjects taught in the primary schools ? —Tes. 4919. So that the children from the primary schools have every opportunity ? —Tes. 4920. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have there been any applications from district schools to be erected into district high schools in the North Canterbury District? —Not in the North Canterbury District.* 4921. The Chairman.] Tou are one of the Board of Governors of Canterbury College?—Tes. 4922. Do you think the present mode of appointing the governors is a satisfactory oue —namely, by co-optation, when vacancies occur?—l thiuk it is as satisfactory as any plan that could be adopted. 4923. Is there, as far as you know, any general feeling against the present system of electing the governors ?—I have never heard any objection taken to it. 4924. Do you think the professors of the College ought to be represented on the Board ?—I do not think so. Ido not see on what principle they ought to be. 4925. Eev. W. J. Habens.] Do you see any reason why a professor should not be elected on the Board just as any one else is elected ? —1 can see an objection. The objection w*ould be the fact of the professor being a paid officer of the Board of which he was a member. At the same time I think the professors ought to be consulted. 4926. Professor Brown.] Supposing the financial objection were obviated by the appointment of a Board of trustees, would there be any objection then to the professors being on the Board ? —I think the difficulty would be, to a great extent, removed; because then it would be merely a matter of consultation as to the management of the College-—college questions. 4927. And questions as to the management of the boys' school, and other matters ? —Tes. 4928. Do you not think that the exclusion of professorial advice from matters affecting the various departments of the College does harm, and is apt to lead to mistakes in details ? —Tes, if the Board of Governors are deficient in that kind of knowledge. 4929. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know whether it has been the habit of the Board and its Committees to consult the professors on points upon which it is known that they are specially qualified to advise? For example, has the Library Committee consulted the professors in the selection of books ? —They have done so ; they have asked the professors to suggest books, and taken every opportunity to obtain suggestions from every qualified person. I refer to the reference library. Since that we have not had anything like sufficient funds to make it worth while to ask for further information. The suggestions of professors have possibly not in all cases been adopted. Tho Committee had to make selections to the best of their judgment. 4930. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it is an advantage to a public library in a town like Christchurch that its management should be mixed up with that of the College ?—I do not see any objection to it whatever, because there is a special committee to deal with the library. 4931. Do you think if it were not mixed up with the College it might obtain more support from the public ?•—I think it is well supported as it is. 4932. Is it sufficiently endowed, then? —The funds do not meet all our requirements; w*e are obliged to use such money as we can afford. 4933. Does it draw any moneys from the general public, or only those from the endowments ? — There are annual subscriptions, and it obtains a share of the annual grant. It was first called a literary institute, and on the transfer of the property it was conveyed to the Superintendent, with the proviso expressed in the deed that it should be kept open as a circulating library, and a charge has been made so as to keep control over the people who use the books. It is a very low charge—los. a year. 4934. Do you think the subscriptions would be increased or diminished if the management of the library were put into the hands of a totally different body, elected from the townspeople?—l do not think it would make the least difference. Our principal difficulty is the want of money to enlarge the library. 4935. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does the Board afford every opportunity to the subscribers to the library and to the general public to make recommendations of books ? —There is a suggestion-book open to the public. 4936. And is it freely used ?—Tes, to a considerable extent. Suggestions are made sometimes which we are not able to carry out for want of funds. 4937. Dr. Hector.] In procuring books have you at any time selected with a view to the requirements of tho College, or the officers of the College, rather than to suit the public?—No ; certainly not. The institution is for the general public. We are not adding to the reference library, for want of funds. There was a sum expended in the purchase of a classical library, but that was from a separate fund. 4937 a. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Could you give an approximate statement as to the value of the books in the reference library ? —I could not do so from memory. Mr. C. C. Corfe, 8.A., further examined. 4938. The Chairman.] Do you consider that there is any want of harmony between Christ's College Grammar School and Canterbury College, such as to impede the working of the institution over which you have control ? —I do. I consider that the smallest amount of touting for students on the part of the professors of Canterbury College is calculated to impede the working of Christ's College Grammar School; not by drawing from it boys who are fitted by age, attainments, and character to enter upon a University course (to this I could offer no objection)", but by unsettling boys who are in no respect so fitted, and to whom the attractions are the independence of the life, and the immunity from school discipline. 4939. Bey. .F. J. Habens.] Tour answer docs not assert, but it necessarily implies, that there has been ou the part of the professors of Canterbury College some undignified conduct, to which the term * Since giving my evidence Akaroa District School haa made such application.—J. I.

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April 18,1879.

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" touting "is applied. Do you stand by that necessary implication ? It is not a statement. Are you prepared to assert that there has been such conduct ? —I consider that the remarks made by Professor Brown, in an address given to students and others at Canterbury College to the following effect: " that many of the ablest boys at Christ's College Grammar School, hearing from their companions here, or from other chance sources, of the vast difference between work at a University institution like this aud school work, have begun to enter as students here on getting University scholarships," and further on, where ho adds, " Compared with tho Melbourne University papers, which are said to have the highest place in the colonies, unprejudiced critics who are able to judge acknowledge that our annual examination papers are of a much higher culture, less like school work, and less enslaved by text-books," —these remarks seem to imply that it is the opinion of the professor that boys who obtain University scholarships at the age of fifteen should, as a matter of course, enter as students at Canterbury College. Furthermore, I presume that an article which appeared in the Dyttelton Times of the 7th July 4910. Do you intend to read an extract from the newspaper to show that the professors of Canterbury College have been " touting " for students ?—The remarks in the leading article in the paper seem undoubtedly to express their opinions. If you will allow me I will only read the commencement of a phrase —it was never contradicted by them, and I think one is fairly entitled to consider that the professors do not disagree with the principles laid down in the article. 4911. Professor Brown.] Is it the office of the professors to contradict newspaper reports?—l suppose not. 4912. Have they ever done so ? —ln this particular instance the article was alluded to by the headmaster of Christ's College, and I think one may fairly imagine that if the professors did not agree with the remarks they would have said so. The article says, " The professors and lecturers are unwilling " 4913. And you think it is the duty of the professors to correct every newspaper statement ? —I think that in the case of a leading article of this nature, which was contradicted by the headmaster of Christ's College Grammar School—which is the only feeder for Canterbury College in tho province— one might fairly have expected that, if a thorough state of harmony was desirable between the two institutions, it would have been alluded to in some way, unless it was agreed with. 4911. Have you known of any statements, except statements of facts or statistics, that have ever been corrected by the professors in the papers ?—I have not. 4915. I think it is the rule of the professors not to do so ?—I do not know. 4916. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Unless the article which you propose to read bears upon the question of the conduct which has been described as " touting," I think it would be better not to read it at this stage. Does the article bear upon that question ?—lf this article may be taken as expressing the views of the professors of Canterbury College, I consider it bears tho nature of touting. 4947. Have you any other reasons than those which you have assigned for assuming that this article expresses the views of the professors ? —I have. 4948. And are they of a character that you can state ? —Hardly of a character that I can state. 4949. Dr. Hector.] What is the actual damage which the institution under your care has suffered from any action on the part of Canterbury College ? Can you state, in a general way, whether it has diminished the number of pupils, or whether it has disorganized the school, or lessened your authority among tho pupils, or in any otber way impeded the working of the institution under your control ? — Shortly before the delivery of Professor Brown's address, which I have just quoted from, the head boy of the Grammar School, aged fifteen, was under examination for a junior University scholarship. Before the list came out, and immediately after Professor Brown's address, the boy requested to be allowed to go to Canterbury College. The boy had no father, and his mother wrote to me for advice. Peeling great delicacy, as I always do in such matters, I hesitated how to advise. But, as there seemed no doubt that the boy's attainments and character were not of such a nature as to render it advisable that he should become a student of an institution such as Canterbury College, I recommended that he should not be taken away. I may say that I knew the boy was destined for an English University ; tbat I knew his character well;"that I knew his attainments well; and that I consulted with my colleagues in the matter. I consider that tho boy was so unsettled, by the feeling that he was too good for the school, that great injury was done him ; that great injury might have been clone to the rest of the form, and, consequently, to the whole school. That the tone of the school was of such a healthy nature that no very serious injury was done, I will allow ; but I consider that very great injury was done to the boy, as I thiuk the results show. At the end of the following term he was not at the head of the school. I have omitted to mention that he did not obtain a junior University scholarship. 4950. Professor Sale.] Tou are aware that steps are being taken for the purpose of establishing a boys' high school in Christchurch ? Have you anything to say upon that subject ?—As a citizen 1 should like to express my opinion that the reasons given for tho establishment of a boys' high school in Christchurch by the professors of Canterbury College do not seem to be sufficient for the expenditure of so large an amount of money at the present time. The reasons I allude to are given in the following letter, addressed by the professors and lecturers to the Board of Governors of Canterbury College, and dated 20th April, 1577 :— " The teaching staff of Canterbury College beg to bring before the notice of the Board of Governors the following facts, which have been impressed upon them during their experience in the College : — " (a.) That the majority of the students who present themselves are so untrained that an undulylarge proportion of time is occupied with work of a preparatory nature. " (_.) That the provincial scholarships fail of their right object, inasmuch as the holders of them are not encouraged to take advantage of the highest education the province affords. " (c.) That, accordingly, the want of an intermediate school, exclusively devoted to the higher branches of school work, is strongly felt. " The teaching staff therefore beg to recommend tbat the Board of Governors should consider the expediency of establishing a boys' high school."

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April 18, 1879.

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4951. Dr. Hector.] Was any action taken in consequence of that letter ? —The building is in course of erection. 4952. Do you think there is sufficient accommodation for secondary-school hoys in Christchurch at the present time, without any further addition?—l thiuk there is hardly room at the present time for two high schools. 4953. Is the accommodation you have at the Grammar School sufficient for all the pupils who would attend high schools? —I am not prepared to say that it is. 4954. Is the proposed new high school being built in the immediate vicinity of Christ's College? —Tes ;it is being built on the same block of land on which Canterbury College stands. 4955. The second high school, then, is not intended to accommodate pupils from another aud more distant part of the city ?—I do not know that it is. 4956. Professor Shand.] Is not the present high school a denominational school ?—No hoy is compelled to learn divinity. 4957. Professor Sale.] Are there, as a matter of fact, students of all denominations in the school ? —We have had them at different times, tindoubtedly. 4958. But is it not the case that the masters of the school are all required to be members of the Church of England ?—I believe that is the case. 4959. Do you not think that the fact of the masters being all compelled to belong to this or that denomination might strongly influence the minds of some parents in their choice of a school ?—Not as far as my experience goes. 4960. Tou are not aware of parents having objected to their sons entering Christ's College Grammar School on the ground of the denominational tendency of that institution? —I think I may safely say I am not. 496 L Dr. Hector.] Do you consider Christ's College Grammar School to he a public or a private school ?—I should be sorry to see its management taken out of the hands of the present Board. 4962. And you consider at present that it is a private school ? —I do. 4963. Professor Shand.] Do you think it desirable that the only secondary school in a place like Christchurch should be a private denominational school ?—So long as it is doing its work satisfactorily, and answers the requirements of the place. 4964. But do you not think that the public generally would be somewhat dissatisfied with that position of matters ?—lf the school were placed under University inspection, I see no reason why the public should have any cause of complaint.

April 18,1879.

Saturday, 19th Apeil, 1879. His Honor Mr. Justice JoH-fSTO_r sworn and examined. 4965. The Chairman.] The matter on which we wish to examine you particularly is, as to whether you think candidates for admission to the Bar should be required to go through a University education as well as the ordinary legal training obtainable in a lawyer's office ? —I must speak rather guardedly in answering a question which implies a good deal that I am not quite sure we would agree about. You seem to assume that, for admission to the legal profession, it is only necessary to have gone through a routine of some sort of study in a lawyer's office. That seems a mistake. As the law stands at present, and as the rules made under the Statute stand, the two branches of the profession—though it is easy, and perhaps too easy, to pass from the one to the other —are on a different footing for the purposes of examination, and in each of them there is required to be a certain standard of what we call general knowledge—that is, not strictly legal or professional knowledge—and another standard for legal know*ledge. If I were to answer your question directly, and without much explanation, I should certainly be expressing an opinion which I do not think I myself, or, as far as I know, any other Judge, would hold —at all events, at the present time—namely, that in order to be admitted as a solicitor or barrister in New Zealand it should be compulsory to obtain a University education. I should say at once, if the question were to be confined to that general principle, that at present we should be acting contrary to the established law if we were to adopt such a doctrine as that—to say that every man before he can be admitted into the profession must have passed a certain University curriculum. That it would be exceedingly desirable that he should do so, I have no doubt whatever; and, already, the Legislature has recognized the utility and propriety of University education, by providing that persons who have obtained degrees in Universities of the mother-country, or the recognized Universities of the colonies, shall be exonerated from all examination in respect to general knowledge. Furthermore, the Judges have recognized the importance of all duly-established educational bodies in the colony, by making a rule, which it was competent for us to make, that all candidates should be exonerated from examination in general knowledge who could produce, from the head or governing body of any recognized University or affiliated institution, a certificate that they have passed a satisfactory examination in the subjects which the Judges have fixed upon as the necessary subjects in respect to each branch of the profession, or in equivalent subjects; and we are from year to year, and from time to time, now acting upon those considerations, absolving graduates entirely from all necessity for examination in general knowledge, and admitting the certificates of such bodies as Canterbury College, Christ's College, and similar institutions when the certificates comply with the conditions ; and we have even taken certificates for a portion of the general-knowledge examination.* I may say at once that it is my own opinion, and I believe the opinion of all the Judges, that it is extremely desirable that we should be divested altogether of this very onerous and very unsatisfactory responsibility that rests upon us with regard to the examination of candidates for admission, both in respect to general knowledge and law. Therefore I hope you will not think me prolix if, iv answering a question which appears simple, I point out to you how necessary it is that I should be guarded in my statement, especially as I cannot but be expressing to some extent what I believe to be the opinions and views of other Judges, * The propriety of this lias been questioned.—A. J.J.

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as well as my own, on this particular point. I should hail with very great satisfaction any . scheme, sanctioned by the Legislature, which would hand over to the recognized teaching bodies in the country —the higher class of teaching bodies —all responsibility in these matters; and I should be glad that, in a department specially dedicated to the legal profession, they should, at all events, be invested with powers of examination which might be utilized by the Judges. I am not prepared to say that we should be justified, for a considerable time to come, in recommending that the control of the examinations in respect to law should be taken away from the Judges. I think the time has hardly arrived for that. But, in answer to the general question you have put to me, I am not prepared to say I think in the present state of the colony it would be desirable to make the passing of a University examination, or the having attended a University course, a sine qua non for admission to the profession. I do not think that in the present state of the colony it would be just, and, with respect to many persons coining from other colonies or countries, it might be a positive hardship. If the University could see its way to establish certain professorships and appoint examiners in law, and they could be brought into use to conduct the examinations, leaving the ultimate responsibility with the Judges, I think even in the meantime it would be highly desirable. I might allude to the fact that the responsibility of the Judges in respect to this matter has now become almost intolerable. The general examinations were conducted on the third Monday in March last, aud it has been physically impossible for me, attending to my other duties, to get through the papers I hare to decide upon up to this date, and the same with my brother Williams. Any well-digested scheme which, while leaving a good guarantee to the Judges that the proficiency of the candidates would be properly ascertained, would exonerate them from their present most distressing work and responsibility, I should hail with very great satisfaction indeed. As for the general question, I could not say, in the present state of the colony, that it would be just or fair or desirable that a University education should be a sine qua non for admission, especially if the requirements were not confined to the question of the admission of barristers. When the two branches of the profession have been divided—-substan-tially divided—my opinion might be modified to a considerable extent; but as you are aware that at present any person who is admitted as a solicitor has a right to practise as a barrister —and, I am sorry to say, without any further examination—you will see the difficulty that necessarily arises with regard to what the qualifications of those persons should be, when it is insisted with regard to a man who goes up for a barrister's examination that he should have passed through a certain curriculum, while another man, who could not be expected to go through such a course if he was merely going to act as a solicitor, might attain the status of the barrister without having undergone any such education. That would be applicable to the state of things if the two branches remained as they are now ; and I may say that, according to my practical experience, I see very little chance of that consummation which is devoutly to be wished for —a separation of the two branches of the profession —being practicable for a considerable time to come. But every step towards improvement in the means of communication makes it more and more feasible, and the Judges themselves, I believe, are striving to the utmost to work up to that object. Por instance, in this Island my brother Williams and I sit together as much as possible in Banco, in the hope, among other things, that thereby there may be more concentration of professional work, and that some gentlemen may devote themselves more specially to the branch of barristers and some to that of solicitors. 4966. Professor Shand.] Is it your opinion that it would be impracticable, while allowing barristers to practise as solicitors, to prohibit solicitors from practising as barristers, the two branches being subjected to different examinations ? —lf I were a member of the Legislature, I think I should receive very favourably a proposition to that effect. In fact, I have on many occasions—many legitimate occasions—expressed my great desire that the present state of things should not continue, and that the mere admission as a solicitor should not entitle a man to be admitted as a barrister. I think it is exceedingly undesirable, and that it has already produced a very pernicious effect. 4967. I gather that it is your opinion that, so far as the examination in general knowledge is concerned, the Judges will be glad to be relieved of the examination, and to hand it over to the University or some other authority ? —Yes. If the University would undertake the duty of examination, without insisting upon a previous attendance on a curriculum of lectures, I think it would be a very great advantage ; and, when practicable, it might also bo the meaus of suggesting the propriety of all young men educated in the colony who are going into the profession attending a curriculum of University lectures. 4968. lam speaking now of the examination simply, without reference to attendance ?—I have no hesitation in saying it would be a very great boon indeed. 4969. We should be glad to obtain your opinion of the standard for the examination, supposing the two branches of the profession were separated. What would be the proper standard for the solicitors' examination, and what would be the proper standard for the barristers' examination?—J think the best answer I could give to that would be to read the standard now in force by order of the Judges, exercising their powers under the Act. Perhaps, in the first instance, I had better call your attention to the provisions of the Law Practitioners Act with regard to the examinations, and then tell you what the Judges have done under the Act. The general outline of the law is to this effect: The Judges are empowered aud directed to examine solicitors upon certain generally-defined matters —character, competency, and so forth. The Judges are intrusted with the power to make rules within the Act, and the last rules, gazetted on 14th June, 1877, are to the following effect: — "By virtue of the powers vested in us by law, it is ordered by us, the Judges of the said Court, that the following rules shall come into force on and after Tuesday, the first day of January, 1877 : — " The existing rules touching the examination and proof of qualification of candidates for admission as barristers and solicitors of the Supreme Court are hereby repealed, and the following rules are substituted for them :— " 1. Every candidate for admission as a barrister or solicitor of the Supreme Court shall give notice to the Eegistrar of the Court at the place where he intends to apply for admission, at least two months

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■ before the time appointed for an examination, of his desire to be examined, and shall state the nature of the examination that he proposes to submit to ; and shall at the same time pay the proper fee in respect of such examination. "2. Candidates who are by law entitled to be admitted either as barristers or solicitors after an examination only in their knowledge of the law of New Zealand so far as it differs from the law of England, may be examined at such times as the Judge in each judicial district shall appoint. "3. An examination of other candidates for admission as barristers or solicitors in law and general knowledge shall be held, at every place where there shall be an office of the Supreme Court, on the third Monday in March and the third Monday in September in each year, and shall be continued from day to day, omitting Court holidays. If the third Monday in March shall be Easter Monday, the examination shall commence on the Wednesday following. "4. Candidates for admission either as barristers or solicitors may be examined in general knowledge at any examination held before or subsequently to the commencement of any pupilage or service on which the candidate relies for admission, and shall be examined in law at some examination held after the expiration of any such period of pupilage or service, or not more than six calendar months before the expiration of such period: Provided that candidates shall not he examined in both law and general knowledge at the same half-yearly examination ; and no candidate who is by law required to pass in general knowledge shall be permitted to preseut himself for examination in law until he has passed the examination in general knowledge. "5. The half-yearly examinations will be conducted by printed or written papers. The papers will be the same throughout the colony, and in every place the same papers will be set on the same day and at the same hour." The general view of the Judges with regard to the general-knowledge examination of gentlemen destined for the profession of the law, as I understand it, is that we have no right, in admitting gentlemen to the legal profession, to stand out for a very high standard of excellence, say, in classics, mathematics, and so on. Our object rather is to secure general culture, and to insure that the men who enter a liberal profession shall be liberally educated, not merely in their own profession —although, of course, every one must be aware that the thorough learning of any one subject, which is worthy of learning at all, may serve for as good cultivation of the mental powers as a less thorough knowledge of a large body of matter. Yet we think it necessary that there should be a considerable range of subjects, but not a very high standard such as is required in law. The rules say, — " (!. The examination in general knowledge for candidates for admission as barristers, and for candidates for admission as solicitors who are by law required to pass the barrister's examination, shall be in the following subjects : —(1.) Greek : Translations from the Iliad, first four books; Herodotus, Second Book. (2.) Latin : Translations from Cicero De Officiis, and Eirst and Second Orations against Catiline ; Satires of Horace, First Book. Candidates will be expected to show a competent knowledge of Greek and Latin grammar, and to answer such questions ou Greek and Roman history, geography, antiquities, and literature as may arise out of the works in which they are examined (3.) Euclid: Eirst four books. (4.) Algebra: To quadratic equations inclusive. (5.) History; Hallam's Constitutional History; Hallam's Middle Ages, fifth, sixth, and eighth chapters. " 7. Candidates may be examined in French or German, instead of Greek, provided they give written notice of their desire to be so examined to the Eegistrar at least two months before the time of examination. No particular works will be specified, but candidates will be expected to translate into English passages from standard authors in the language chosen, and also to translate passages from English into French or German. A knowledge of the French or German grammar and literature will be also required. "8. The examination in general knowledge for candidates for admission as solicitors shall be in the following subjects : —(1.) Latin: Translation from first two books of Caesar. (2.) Latin Grammar. (3.) Euclid: Eirst two books. (4.) Arithmetic and Algebra: To simple equations inclusive, (o.) History : A general knowledge of the principal events and dates in English history ; Creasy on the Constitution. "9. The subjects prescribed for translation in Greek in the barristers' examination, and in Latin in the barristers' and solicitors' examination, are liable to alteration from time to time, but twelve months' notice will be given of any alteration. " 10. The examination in law for candidates for admission as barristers, and for candidates for admission as solicitors who are by law required to pass the barristers' examination, shall be in the following subjects : —(1.) Eoman law : Sandars' Justinian, first two books, with introduction, and notes; Gibbon's Decline and Fall, chap, xliv., on Eoman law. (2.) International law an 4 conflict of laws. (3.) Eeal property, and conveyancing. (4.) Contracts and torts. (5.) Equity. (6.) Criminal law. (7.) Evidence. (8.) Pleading and practice. (9.) New Zealand Statute law. " 11. The examination in law for candidates for admission as solicitors will be generally on the theory and practice of the laws of England and of New Zealand, and will be of the same character as tho final examination for solicitors in England. " 12. Every candidate for admission either as a barrister or solicitor who shall produce a certificate emanating from the proper authority that he has passed an examination either at the University of New Zealand, or any University in Great Britain, Ireland, or the Australian Colonies, or at any college or institution affiliated to or connected with any such University, or who has passed the New Zealand senior Civil Service examination, and who shall prove to the satisfaction of a Judge of the Supreme Court that such examination comprised any subject or subjects corresponding with any of those hereby prescribed for the general-knowledge examination, shall be excused from being examined iv such subject or subjects. " 13. The age of all candidates for admission must appear on affidavit. "14. A barrister or advocate previously admitted elsewhere must produce, to the Judge of the district to whom he applies for admission his admission, or some certificate or other document duly verified proving his admission, and make au affidavit that he is the person named therein and was admitted as therein stated.

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" 15. Every candidate for admission as a barrister who claims to be entitled as a graduate of some . University to be admitted after an examination in law only, shall produce his diploma, or some duly authenticated certificate or other documentary evidence of his having taken a degree, with an affidavit verifying the same and proving his identity with the person mentioned in such document. " 16. Every candidate for admission as a barrister who has not been admitted elsewhere shall produce to the Judge to whom he applies for admission an affidavit made by a barrister on the roll of the Court, or an affidavit by the candidate accounting for the absence of such affidavit, from which it shall appear tbat such candidate was bond fide exclusively engaged in the study of law as a pupil of such barrister for three years at least before his application to be admitted." 4970. So far as I can gather from these regulations the examination in general knowledge required to be passed by solicitors is nearly equivalent to the entrance examination of the University ? —Very likely. 4971. And the examination required of barristers is somewhat inferior to the B.A. examination? ■—I think it probably is. 4972. If the University undertook these examinations, do you think it would be advisable, for the sake of avoiding the multiplication of examinations, that these two University examinations I have mentioned should be set down as the examinations required to be passed by barristers and solicitors respectively ?—I should like to preface my answer by saying this: that lam not to be taken as giving an opinion of what I think would be a desirable ultimatum. We must take things as we find them, and have regard to the interests of persons who have been admitted up to this time. We must make the matter sufficiently elastic not to do incidental injustice. My own notion is that by-and-by it will be quite the proper thing—l am not sure that it would not be so now —to say that the examination for a barrister in general knowledge should be at least equivalent to that which would give a man a pass degree as B.A. Whether or not it might be desirable, as education is a little mors developed, to make the general-knowledge examination for a solicitor a little higher than the matriculation examination for the University, lam not prepared to say. Perhaps, at present, it would be premature to say it should be higher than that. But I agree with Professor Shand that it would be an extremely desirable thing if we could adopt some of the University standards, so that the University degree in the one case —or, you contemplated, I think, that the University might examine a law candidate on the B.A. examination who had not gone through the curriculum, und would not be entitled to his B.A. degree ? 4973. We are not discussing now whether they ought to go through a preliminary course in any of the affiliated institutions or not, but whether this examination would be a suitable one to supersede the present ? —That might be a very desirable course. In fact, I need not say that the Judges, iv meeting together and deciding these things, have been governed a good deal by what they saw had been done previously in the examination papers, and are by no means desirous of laying down any Procrustean rules about the matter. In fact, I would rather look to such a body as the University for assistance and guidance in establishing a standard. 4974. Having had brought under your notice the regulations of the University respecting the LL.B. degree, do you think the standard prescribed in those regulations for the examinations in law would be equivalent to that which is now in force by the Judges ? —I am clearly of opinion that, if lam to read these regulations proposed by the University along with the books that are cited under the respective heads, the examination would be entirely insufficient for the purpose of admission as a barrister. The general heads are so large that you might as well say the whole law of England, because " The English Law on Personal Bights, Bights of Property, and Bights in Private Relations," would admit of the most extensive subdivision and the reading of a whole library. But when, under those general heads, "Stephen's Commentaries, Book so-and-so," is indicated, instead of the whole of Stephen's Commentaries, and certain books are mentioned, it seems an indication that it would be sufficient that a man should be able to pass a fair examination upon those books, which books, I think, w*ould be a standard far below what ought to exist. The same remark applies to the third examination. 4975. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In your judgment, the schedule to which you are now referring rather represents the kind of education in law a man might desire to get as part of a liberal education, than part of his technical professional training P —Exactly so. Blackstone's Commentaries, which is rather an eulogium on the laws of England than a law-book, is part of an English gentleman's education. Every country gentleman liberally educated is supposed to know his Blackstone ; aud Stephen is the representative of Blackstone in modern days. 497 G. Professor Sale.] Do you think it is necessary or desirable that in a legal education text-books should be specified ? —I have a doubt about that; except in such a case, for instance, as a text-book like Sandars' Justinian —that is to say, Justinian's Institutes with an introduction, aud that introduction being the most valuable part of it for examination. The object of indicating such a book as that is that, if a man makes himself thoroughly master of it, and, we will say, of a chapter in Gibbon, he will have such a general outline knowledge of the law of Borne as will give him facilities that other persons would not have for understanding the law of England ; but we should not be examining him as for a thorough knowledge of Boman law. That would apply to the indication of a particular text-book. It is only when that particular text-book contains something which you may call exclusive of other books, in the sense of its being a complete resume or synoptical view of something which you think it is desirable that a candidate should know about. But, otherwise, with regard to the general law of the land, it might be exceedingly desirable that instructors —either the Judges or the masters of the pupils —should indicate the best books ; for nothing is so desirable as to make young men read good lawbooks instead of bad law-books. But Ido not think it is advisable, with regard to the general heads of law, specially to indicate particular text-books, unless there is something exclusive in them you wish the candidates to know. 4977. Then, as a general rule, you would leavo the choice of tho text-books to instructors?—l think so; except in such a case as I have quoted—Sandars' Justinian, and Gibbon's account of the Boman law; and the more so that the profession is in a remarkable state of transition in respect to education. "When I first became a pupil, more than forty years ago, the really good text-books could be counted

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on one hand almost. Since that time, in consequence to a great degree of the noble rivalry of the Americans, we have begun in England to have much more scientific law-books ; and the student of the present day, besides being exonerated from knowing a great deal of efl'ete matter, has means of study which were not available when I was studying. This is a great advantage in some respects, and perhaps a little disadvantage in others. Those who pick out the ore from the large quantity of rubbish perhaps know more about it in the end. I allude to this for the purpose of showing that one could hardly say that the text-book of to-day will be the best text-book this day three years. On the contrary, there are fresh text-books coming out nowadays from day to day. I may instance particularly Sir James Stephen's books, which are of infinite value to the profession, and to exclude them and indicate something else would of course be undesirable. 4978. Professor Shand.~\ If the text-books were struck out of the examination in law, as prescribed by the University, would it then be substantially the same as that laid down by the Melbourne University ?—No doubt. I understand it is the case in Victoria that no one is admitted to the Bar unless he has obtained the degree of LL.B. of the University of Melbourne. If he is an English barrister he is registered. That is not so here. In New Zealand an English barrister is not admitted without passing an examination on the difference between the English law and the New Zealand law. 4979. There is no examination in Victoria which will entitle a man to be enrolled as a barrister, except the examination for the LL.B. degree of the University. If the examination of the New Zealand University were modified by having the text-books struck out, would you approve of that being the law here ? —With these very general headings or definitions the standard of the New Zealand University examination is quite unascertained. Under the heading of " Eoman law," or " The law of property," you might put a series of questions that none but a most accomplished jurist could be expected to answer; or, again, you might put a series of questions that an ordinary layman would be able to answer. If one saw one's way to ascertaining that the examination necessary to obtain the LL.B. degree could not be passed without the student having attained what we consider at present a fair standard of proficiency —and we do not put it too high —I think it would be most desirable to say to the candidate, "If you obtain your LL.B. degree, or pass at the University the examination that would entitle you to it if you went through the curriculum, that ipso facto will be sufficient to admit you as a barrister." But it ia necessary that the standard should be high enough. 4980. If the text-books were struck out of the examination schedule, do you think it would be possible to define in any other way the scope of the examination ?—I hope you will not think me too discursive if I just make a few general observations at first, in order to make you thoroughly understand my meaning. Every examination in law must be under some of the heads mentioned in the schedule: in fact, they are general enough to cover everything. There are an infinite number of books written on all these subjects. The selection of the best book to use as a text-book is a matter of great moment, and of considerable difficulty; and, as I said before, the text-books are continually changing : some of them are very bad, while others on the contrary are very good, and some of the modern ones, especially, are scientific, and help to educate men in principles. But a very lai'ge proportion of English law text-books are mere indexes, and it is only quite recently that in England text-books were allowed to be cited in argument. I think it was Lord St. Leonard's book on Vendors and Purchasers which was first cited in Court as a text-book. But these compilations do not educate a man properly in law, unless he goes to the fountain-head. " Melius est vetere fontes qiiam sectari rivulos," is the motto of Smith's Leading Cases ; and no man can learn law, as a lawyer, who is content with reading special particular text-books, and goes no further. These text-books ought to be looked upon merely as a means of getting at the law. There is no doubt that for examination purposes a great deal of that evil practice of cramming is fostered by text-books ; but a man can never be anything like an accomplished lawyer who would be satisfied with reading a particular text-book on a particular subject. Therefore, there is a necessity as (I think), in all education, especially for the higher branch of the profession, that men should not be tempted to adopt as their standard of knowledge merely certain chapters of a certain compilation upon some subject. And you could not take anything more general than a book of commentaries. There is no doubt that in Stephen's Commentaries, or in other modern commentaries!, such as Broome's, something will be found on every branch of law. It is outline. It is merely the results of the law rather than the law itself. In every text-book the authorities are cited, and unless the pupil has mastered the authorities themselves —the principal ones—the text-book serves him only memorially. It is most useful for memorial purposes ; but you must go beyond the ordinary text-book in order to arrive at the real rationale of the thing, and understand the principles of the law. Therefore, I say, it will be a dangerous thing to indicate merely particular text-books, although there are some textbooks so excellent in themselves that an indication might be useful. But the indication of any such text-books as described here, Stephen's Commentaries, for example—an admirable book in itself, no doubt, and admirably edited up to the present time—might, I think, mislead the candidate. In fact, it has been said that, practically, after all, the best volume of law we have in England (and that is probably better arranged than the code of Justinian) is what is called Fisher's Digest—an alphabetical list of decided cases, to which a volume is added every year. But you would never suggest as a general book Fisher's Digest; and, after all, that book, with an alphabetical arrangement of the decisions of the English Courts, would be of more practical value than Stephen's or any other commentaries, without anything else. Ido not know if I have made myself understood—that they are very great memorial helps, but that I should never look upon a man as a well-educated lawyer who had confined his reading to such general commentaries as those. 4981. One object of my question was to get an expression of opinion from your Honor as to whether it would be possible to give a definition which would limit the scope of the examination ; because, obviously, if the mere general heading is put down the examination might be made much too difficult for the purpose ?—lt might be, and it might be made much too easy. I think it is quite possible, but not easy by any means, to take a general survey of the different branches of law which it is desirable a man should know, either theoretically or practically—to take a fair average. It is not contemplated, I suppose, that the same subject should be given for every one ? They are liable to change.

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4982. I think it is not intended at present to change the headings ? —"What I was going to say is this : that in eaoh branch of law you may take general subdivisions, and if you are examining promiscuously, as it were, on these subjects, a man would have to go through the whole body of law to know something about any branch. Suppose you examine on these books —Stephen's, and so on. It is supposed they do cover to a great extent the whole body of law. But what they do is this: to take up an immense mass of law which exists, and put it in its most complete form ; and thus, as I say, on these books you could make the examination far too easy or far too difficult. But you might do this : Tou might come to the conclusion, in a council on the subject, that it is desirable that a man should know —especially in considering the conditions of the colony —say, something of conveyancing, the law of real property, and uses and trusts. Tou might indicate under* these general terras subdivisions in respect to matters that are essential—that is to say, that the test should be that every candidate for admission as a barrister should be able to give a fair account of that subject. Tou cannot go through the whole subjects, the range is too vast; but by a wise selection from time to time—and there being a considerable number of subjects will enable you to get a fair average test of a man's general knowledge of law, by examining on the different subjects ; for instance, in real property, to examine a man upon, say, the Conveyancing and Transfer Acts, and their policy, and refer to some special divisional branch of the law of real property in England —by doing that in that subject, and iv other subjects of a different kind, indicating something specific, you will invite the candidate to specially get up those subjects ; and they ought to be so chosen that they cannot well be got up without his having some knowledge of the whole subject. But, as I said before, it is very difiicult to speak theoretically and hypothetically on this. A council of lawyers sitting down together with this definite object might, I think, arrive at a fair conclusion. That is to say, that there might be something more specific than this general heading, which does not insure competency on the one side, and might be oppressive on the other. 4983. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it would be advisable to leave the LL.B. examination as one to test a degree of proficiency that would satisfy the requirements of a liberal education, and to have an honours examination which might be accepted by the Judges as a sufficient qualification for a barrister, or to make the LL.B. examination of that character ? —I have not had much experience of these degrees. Very few people take the law degrees in England. Ido not know the proportion, but I venture to say that the proportion of practising barristers who are LL.B.s or LL.D.s is infinitesimal. 4984. Professor Sale.] The profession does not attach a high value to those degrees ?—I do not say that that is the case, but they are not considered legal tests. Ido not know that you even presume that an LL.B. or LL.D. knows much about law in England. 4985. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know anything of the character of the LL.B. examination of the London University ? —I do not. 4986. Professor Shand.] Is it necessary for a barrister in England to be a graduate of the University before admission ?—No ; passing a University examination saves him, according to the modern practice, from a preliminary examination. Ido not think the LL.D. degree in England gives a man a status in the Civil Law Courts ; he requires to be a D.C.L. for that. 4987. The Chairman.] Tou said you thought the Judges should be relieved from the task of examining candidates for admission to the Bar. Do you think there is any body at present existing in New Zealand as capable of conducting the examinations as the Judges are ? —I should be sorry to say that there is any body existing ; there may be individual persons as competent as any of the Judges ; but I do not think the Judges ought to have the responsibility at all. What I think ought to be done is something like this: the profession ought to be aroused to a sense of its responsibilities as a body ; and, now that they have got a General Law Society and District Law Societies legally constituted, with certain privileges, powers, and moneys, some arrangement should be made, with the intervention, if necessary, of the Legislature, to enable the examinations to be conducted by a body derived from the Law Societies of the colony, with proper remuneration and so forth ; not leaving to them, however, the ultimate decision about acceptance or rejection, but making it competent for the Judges to admit, or not, upon their report. I think such a plan is quite feasible, especially as the local societies have now got command of the funds arising from lawyers' admission and other fees. I think it would be quite competent for them, for the protection of the profession, to have a body of examiners, either permanent or fluctuating, who should relieve the Judges from the work of the examinations, and relieve them also from that kind of—l will not say suspicion, because Ido not suppose anybody suspects the Judges—but from the great inconvenience of the substantial management of the examinations, in setting the papers and reporting upon them, leaving the ultimate decision still in the hands of the Judges, if any questions arose about the propriety of admission. I think that would be a most desirable course, and one which if it were once put in form would not, or ought not to, be unacceptable to the profession generally. I might mention incidentally that, as the responsibility and onerousness of these examinations increased every year, the Government got an Act passed three years ago enabling the Judges to appropriate a portion of the fees, which were then under their control and which were dedicated primarily to the establishment of libraries, to the appointment of persons to examine. The Judges, in respect to the general-knowledge examinations, took advantage of that arrangement, and for a year, or a year and a half, they had the command of those funds for that purpose. But last year an Act, which deprived them of those funds wherever there are District Law Societies, was passed through the Legislature without any previous intimation to the Judges, or any explanation of the reasons for it, and probably without the knowledge of many who voted on the Bill —it was an incidental clause in the Law Societies Act. The Judges are now deprived of the control —they are happy to be deprived of the control —of those fees ; but, inasmuch as the Legislature had before indicated the propriety of some portion of these fees being dedicated to the examinations, it would seem reasonable to suppose that it might again permit the Law Societies to use them for that purpose. This, of course, only bears on the preseut subject to this extent, that it is not improbable that by-and-by these law examinations —unless some legislative interference takes place with respect to theUniversities —might be conducted by a representative body, who might, with respect to general knowledge or law, or both, be in correspondence and relations with the University. 32— H. 1.

Mr. Justice JoTin. ston. April 19,1879.

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4988. The Chairman.] Do you think that the University of New Zealand, as it at present exists, is the kind of University most suitable for this colony ? —I should be very diffident in giving an opinion upon a subject so large as that, for, I regret to say, the amount of information I have on the matter would not enable me to give anything like a definite opinion, and I should not like to give any crude opinion on the subject. What one would wish to see would be a struggle for unity to prevent waste of power. I should say the time has come now when one University in New Zealand —I must be taken as speaking without the slightest allusion to any decided opinion on the subject and without consideration —I think the time has certainly come when we should be careful to lay the foundations of a University education. lam a great believer in the necessity for it in a civilized country, with modern lines on the subject. But I should not like to have an opinion recorded, as, in fact, Ido not think I am able to judge at present. 4989. Professor Shand.] Do I gather that, if the circumstances admitted of it, you would be glad to see a single powerful University in New Zealand ? —Speaking with reference to what is abstract, and without knowing thoroughly the real status of the educational establishments in New Zealand, I cannot have a doubt in my own mind that we should do well to combine our forces in the matter of education, and that uniformity is of much importance. No doubt a time will come when competition and rivalry may be very desirable. It has been so in the mother-country and also in Germany, where competition and rivalry have been very useful. But Ido not wish it to be understood that I have really formed any opinion on this point. lam speaking more with reference to the abstract than to the concrete. Mr. "W". Montgomery, M.H.E., further examined. 4990. The Chairman.] I understand there are some matters you wish to bring uuder the notice of the Commission with regard to portions of the evidence which you have already given ?—rl understood that some members of the Commission wished for further information respecting the establishment of the Boys' High School, and I think I can inform them of all the circumstances connected with the proposed establishment of that institution. Many members of the Board of Governors of Canterbury College had got it into their minds that a boys' high school should be established here. At that time the professors were also considering the matter, and the result of their deliberations was a letter which they addressed to the Board of Governors on the 20th April, 1877. The letter is as follows : — « Sib,— " Christchurch, 20th April, 1877. "The teaching staff of Canterbury College beg to bring before the notice of the Board of Governors the following facts which have been impressed upon them during their experience in the College:— " (a.) That the majority of the students who present themselves are so untrained that an unduly large proportion of time is occupied in work of a preparatory nature. " (b.) That the provincial scholarships fail of their right object, inasmuch as the holders of them are not encouraged to take advantage of the highest education the province affords. " (c.) That, accordingly, the want of an intermediate school, exclusively devoted to the higher branches of school-work, is strongly felt. " The teaching staff therefore beg to recommend that the Board of Governors should consider the expediency of establishing a boys' high school, and they are prompted to suggest this at the present time, as the Board contemplates shortly the appointment of teachers to the Girls' High School. And the teaching staff further recommend that, in the appointment of their teachers, the Board should keep in view the extension of their duties to a boy_' department. " We have, &c, " J. M. Brown, Professor of Classics and English. " C. H. H. Cook, Professor of Mathematics, &c. " A. W. Bickerton, Professor of Chemistry. " Julius ton Haast, Professor of Geology. " Llewellyn Powell, Lecturer on Biology. " Charles Ttjrrell, Lecturer in French and German. " Charles J. Poster, Lecturer in Jurisprudence. " The Chairman of the Board of Governors of Canterbury College." That letter came before the Board, which, after discussion, came to a decision that was embodied in a resolution ; and, as Chairman of the Board, I addressed a letter on the 16th May to the Colonial Treasurer on the subject, which, if I read it, will put the matter before you as clearly as I can explain it verbally. It is as follows : — " s IE) — " Canterbury College, Christchurch, 17th May, 1877. " I have the honor to forward herewith, for your consideration, copy of a letter addressed by the professors and lecturers of the Canterbury College to the Board of Governors, and to state that, after careful consideration of all the circumstances which called forth the letter in question, the Board passed a resolution, of which the following is a copy : —■ " 'The Board recognizes the desirableness of superior schools being established throughout New Zealand, as links between elementary schools and a University, and that application be made to the Government for a grant for the purchase of a site or sites, and defraying the cost of the necessary buildings for one or more high schools within the Provincial District of Canterbury.' "In this provincial district there are many excellent elementary schools supported by the State aid, also this College, which is in a position to provide an education to students of the University; but there being no intermediate school receiving State support, the youths of this district, except those of wealthy parents, have not the means of acquiring the instruction which is necessary to enable them to take advantage of the higher education afforded by the College. I have therefore to ask your favourable consideration of the resolution adopted by the Board.

Mr. Justice Johnston.

April 19,1879.

Mr. W. Mont-

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April 19, 1879.

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" The want of a boys' high school is much felt in Christchurch, and as Timaru at present contains a large population, and is a rapidly-rising town, situated in a large pastoral and agricultural district, the Board is of opinion that a similar school should be established there. " The cost of sites, buildings, furniture, &c, the Board estimates at £1(5,000, to be apportioned as follows:— " Christchurch site, say ... ... ... ... ... £2,500 " Buildings, say .., ... ... ... ... £6,500 " Furniture and incidental expenses ... ... ... ... £1,000 £10,000 "Por Timaru ... ... ... ... ... ... £6,000 " In asking you to make provision for the establishment of these schools, I do not presume to say from whence the funds should be derived, but I may be allowed to point out that the cost^of erecting these schools might, in. my opinion, with propriety be a charge on the Land Pund of this district, if other means are not immediately available. " I have, &c, " "W. Montgomery, " The Hon. the Colonial Treasurer, Wellington." " Chairman. In 1877 the Government put upon the estimates a sum of £15,000 for these schools. 4991. Professor Shand.] And how was that grant apportioned between the two ?—£9,000 to the Christchurch Boys' High School, and £6,000 to the Timaru High School. 4992. Bey. W. J. Habens.] By whom was the apportionment made ? —By the Board of Governors of Canterbury College, in accordance with the terms of my letter. There being only £15,000 voted, the Christchurch Boys' High School was £1,000 short, as we gave the entire sum as put down in my letter to the Timaru school. 4993. Professor Shand.] Will the £9,000 be sufficient to complete the school here ?—I will explain how we have appropriated that money. We bought an acre of land adjoining the College for £2,500. We purchased the lease of another piece of ground—a third of an acre, running through to the next street —for ten years, paying a ground-rent of £7 a year, for £125. We employed our architect to prepare plans for the school-building, and we found that to make the building sufficiently large, with an adequate number of class-rooms, the cost would be more than we had estimated. We found that the lowest contract would be £8,889 Bs. 6d., and, as this was in excess of the amount voted, we asked the Government to allow us, in order to raise money to supplement the vote, to mortgage the revenues of the school if required, and they agreed to do so. 4994. Professor Cook.] The school already has a revenue?—Tes. 4995. About how much a year at the present time? —£922. Consequently we accepted the contract, and the school-building is now in course of erection —the foundations are being laid. The Board purchased a site for the Timaru School for which it paid £1,500 ; but there is still £150 owing, because there are certain additional roads which cannot be opened until 1881. We kept back £150 of the purchase-money as a collateral guarantee that the roads will be opened. The total amount of land was five acres and two roods. We also paid over to the Timaru Board, or accounted for it, a sum of £361 95., being the amount of interest which had accrued on the £6,000. By the Timaru High School Act of 1878, the control of the school was transferred from the Board of Governors of Canterbury College to a Board located at Timaru, and constituted under that Act. 4996. Professor Sliand.] I think I gather from your letter to the Government that the intention of the Board in establishing the Boys' High School was to introduce it as a step between the elementary schools aud the College ?—Tes. 4997. Did not Christ's College Grammar School occupy that position?— Christ's College Grammar School, as 1 understand, is under a private body, apart from the State altogether, and this College has no control whatever over the course of instruction there. The Board of Education in this district have twenty scholarships running of the value of £40 a year each ; and the scholars holding those scholarships, we think, and always thought, should be in a school which we could depend upon to carry out the objects for which the scholarships were granted. In the Education Act of 1877 it is provided that the scholars shall attend a State school at which the higher branches of education are taught; but, if there be no such school in the district, then at such school as the Board of Education may approve, and we thought that these twenty scholars who had obtained the scholarships and secured the £40 a year by being clever and superior boys, should be educated in a school that would really fulfil the objects for which the scholarships were established. This College did not know* anything about Christ's College Grammar School, and whether it would fulfil these objects or not. We did not consider it at all. We looked upon it as a private school under a denomination. 4998. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is it contemplated to make the scale of fees at the Boys' High School lower than that at Christ's College Grammar School? —We have not come to that yet. lean say that it is in the mind of the Board to make the fees as low as possible, consistent with there being sufficient funds to carry on the school. We shall have a certain amount from the endowment —the land set apart —and the fees, no doubt, will have to be considered in connection with the endowment we have received from the State. It will be the object of the Board, I know, to make the fees as low as possible, and to attract as many scholars as we can. 4999. In your letter you say, " There being no intermediate school receiving State support, the youths of this district, except those of wealthy parents, have not the means of acquiring the instruction which is necessary to enable them to take advantage of the higher education afforded by the College." Do you consider that the Board is bound by that expression in your letter to adopt a lower scale of fees than those which are charged at Christ's College Grammar School?—I do not know what the fees are at that institution at present. We do not consider that the Boys' High School is to be a competing school, or have anything, to do with Christ's College Grammar School. It (the Boys' High School) will be a school which will give to the youths of this part of the country that education which we think an intermediate school should give, and it will give that education at as low a rate of fees as possible, in order that its usefulness may be widely extended.

Mr. W. Mont-

gomery.

April 19, 1879.

£10,000

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Mr. W. Mont-

5000. Professor Shand.] I have not quite comprehended the distinction you have drawn between the position of the Board of Governors of Canterbury College and that of the Board of Governors of Christ's College. I understand that both of these Boards were originally appointed by Provincial Ordinance, and that vacancies are supplied in both Boards in the same way —that is to say, by co-optation. What is the nature of the great distinction you draw between the two Boards ?—ln the elementary schools under the Board of Education there is no denominational influence whatever. Canterbury College was established for the promotion of higher education amongst the youths of all classes of Her Majesty's subjects in this part of the country, and we thought we should have an intermediate school as a link between tho primary schools under the Board of Education and the College, so that it would be free from denominational influence and be a regular State school. Christ's College Grammar School is a denominational school —entirely under the control and management of a denomination. The distinct feature of the proposed high school is that it will not be under any denomination, but under a Board of Governors, and for the purpose of giving the youths of all classes of Her Majesty's subjects an education free from any denominational influence. 5001. I understand, then, that you think the link between the elementary schools and the colleges supplying University education cannot be satisfactorily supplied by a denominational school ?—I think not; there can be no certainty, because the State cannot exercise control, and I think that is the opinion of the community. Eev. CnARLEs Eraser, M.A., sworn and examined. 5002. The Chairman.] Tou are a member of the Senate of the University of New Zealand ?—Tes. 5G03. How long have you been a member of that body ?—Only since the commencement of last session. 5004. Are you in any way connected with Canterbury College ? —I am a member of the Board of Governors. 5005. How long have you held that position ?—Prom the commencement. I w*as also one of the original trustees of the Canterbury Museum and Canterbury Collegiate Union, out of which, I think, the College in a manner grew. 5006. Does the Canterbury College, in your opinion, give that degree of University education that is suitable to the community of Canterbury ? —The quality of the education I believe is very good, but exceedingly incomplete. It does not go near providing what is requisite to fulfil all the requirements of the University. Not above half of the Chairs of tho arts curriculum have been as yet established. 5007. Professor Shand.] Is there a prospect of the course being more complete soon ?—There is an endeavour to have the course complete as funds accrue, but the difficulty is found in that respect. For instance, the department of philosophy is entirely omitted. There is no Chair of logic; no Chair of moral or mental science; there is no provision made, that can be called satisfactory, for modern languages; and there is no Chair for general history, constitutional history, or political economy, the only representative of anything of the kind being a lectureship, with a salary of £100 attached, on jurisprudence. 5008. And constitutional history ? —No : that was the proposal I once suggested, but as we had not the means of adding to the salary we were compelled to leave that subject out. 5009. The Chairman.] With regard to the University of New Zealand, do you think that institution has assumed the form which is most suitable for the requirements of the colony at large ?—Considering the circumstances in which it was placed, the only objection to it is, I think, that it might be described as an examining body which does not examine. It proposes to conduct examinations, and seems to have passed that duty over to others entirely. 5010. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Do you think, then, that the Senate of the University ought to consist of a body of examiners ? —I think that the body which proposes merely to examine should exercise a certain direct control in the examinations. 1 should prefer, for instance, if the examinations were conducted in such a way as that some of the members of the University had directly to do with them, along with experts in the various departments. I think that to put the examinations exclusively into the hands of experts, apart from any connection with the University itself, is perhaps a deficiency. 5011. And you do not think that the functions which the University Senate performs in the prescribing of a curriculum, in the defining of the scope and standards of examinations, and in the appointment of examiners, are sufficient to constitute them a proper examining body?—l think it would be well if they also exercised an immediate and direct control over the examinations. 5012. The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion as to whether there should be only one body granting degrees in the colony, or more than one ? —I think there might be certain advantages —though the matter is not immediately pressing—in having a University for the North Island and one for the South, with a sufficiently wide basis in both cases ; because, in regard to the work of the Senate of the University, it might prevent that work getting too much into one groove. It would provide a certain variety in the general course of the studies which might be an advantage to the colony. And it would perhaps promote a certain competition that would be wholesome to the vitality of both institutions. But lam not aware that there is an immediate necessity for two Universities. Iby no means think it is a matter necessary to be pressed at present; and I should think that, before any idea of carrying it out were entertained, the University as at present constituted should use every effort to secure ample endowments for institutions in the North Island equal to those at present held in the South. 5013. Professor Shand.] Supposing we had two Universities, one for the North Island and one for the South, what would be the constitution of each of the Universities ? The one in the South Island, for example, would it be an examining Board similar to the present University, or would you propose anything like an amalgamation of the existing colleges ?—I should think very much having the functions which have been specified, and which the Senate at present exercises, along with that of more direct control over the examinations—which, I think, would be of importance in the colony. But the appointments to the Senate in either case, I should think, should arise partly from tho boards of governors, partly from the professorial councils, and partly from nominations by the Government. But, in regard to these appointments, I think that the masters of high schools might be allowed to have a voice aloDg with the professors of the colleges.

gomery,

April 19, 1879

JRev. C.Fraser.

April 19,1879.

session.

252

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5014. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the Senate of the University should consist partly of tho professors, by whom the actual teaching is carried on ? —I think it is desirable that they should have representatives on the Senate. 5015. Professor Cook.] Do you mean representatives from their own number, or persons who, though nominated by them, would not be professors ? —As they chose: I would leave that to their own discretion. Ido not object to professors being on the Senate. 5016. Professor Shand.] We have just been informed of the reasons which induced the Canterbury College Board to establish a boys' high school in Christchurch. Do you know whether there was any feeling outside the Board, among the general public, in favour of that step ? —A very strong feeling indeed, I am certain. 5017. On what ground ? —Their opinion is that the Grammar School —the only institution which to a certain extent supplies the place of a high school here —is, in the first place, denominational, and, in the second place, is understood to devote its studies mainly to the classics. I think the feeling in Christchurch and the province generally has been very strongly in favour of the establishment of the new high school. 5018. Is it intended, then, that the proposed high school shall be less classical than Christ's College Grammar School ?—I believe that is the purpose, and that it shall give more attention to other departments ; at the same time, being expressly intended to prepare students for the University. It is possible that the studies there might be arranged in such a way as to have virtually two courses—that some might enter upon the classical course, and obtain in the High School all the classical knowledge necessary to enable them to prepare for the University, and take their degree with honours in that department afterwards ; aud others, who might desire to obtain more practical and business knowledge, might have the opportunity of doing so in other departments, in which, also, special eminence might be attained. Mr. C. C. Bowen, M.H.E., further examined. 5019. The Chairman.] The Commission understand that you desire to supplement the evidence you have already given ? —I wish to add a few words to what I said in reference to secondary schools. I was asked whether I thought it advisable to mix up University and secondary education, and I said I did not; but I wanted to add that I did not think it was even advisable that a secondary school should be under the same government as a collegiate institution, as in the case of Canterbury College and the proposed high school. It is not advisable for the same governing body to have the control of these two institutions. I think it will tend to the bad government of both. At present there is in my opinion a great neglect —not an intentional, but a necessary neglect—when the Board of Governors meet, of the real collegiate business, in consequence of the detail work, the details, for instance, connected with the girls' school, and with the proposed starting of the boys' high school. lam quite sure that the moment both institutions are under way there will be quite enough work to absorb the attention of a separate governing body. The two systems of education are, and ought to be, so totally different that they should not be under one government. 5020. Professor Shand.] Tou would have a separate Board then to manage the Boys' High School and the Girls' High School ?—Tes. 5021. And how would you propose that such a Board should be constituted? —As I said with regard to other institutions, there is a very great difficulty about the constitution of Boards. I should endeavour, as much as possible, to make them representative of educational institutions ; but I should avoid, in every case, either direct popular election or an ex officio tenure of office by people holding political offices. 5022. If the Board had a similar constitution to the governing body of the Dunedin High Schools it would be appointed in this way : The Governor would appoint two members, the Board of Governors of Canterbury College would appoint two members, the Board of Education would appoint two members, and the seventh member would bo the Mayor of the city ex officio? —The fact is, that the composition of the governing body of the Dunedin High School was my own suggestion, with the exception of the Mayor ; and, as a member of the House of Eepresentatives, I resisted in all cases the introduction of Mayors as ex officio governors of schools. I think it is a very great mistake. 5023. Would you approve of a Board having the constitution I have just described, with the exception of the civic element ? —Tes. 5024. Will the revenues of the Girls' High School and the Boys' High School be sufficient to maintain them ? —Tes. I think they ought to be made so, because in my opinion the secondary schools ought to be to a great extent self-supporting. 5025. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you thiuk that any real advantage arises from such a control over high schools on the part of the Board of Governors as shall secure that the high-school course shall be to a very great extent preparatory to the work of a college ? —No. I am rather afraid of outside interference; the great evil of State interference with secondary education is the danger of the whole of the boys of the country being brought up in one groove. I think the French lycee is an exceedingly objectionable institution, and we should get into something like that —a system in which there is no variety in the education, no variety in the bringing out of character. It is a necessity that the State should provide primary schools to insure the general teaching of the elements of education ; but, so far as it is found necessary for the State to go beyond elementary teaching, the result is a necessary evil. 5020. Surely the character of the High School would be equally individual whether it were controlled by the Canterbury College Board of Governors or by some other Board ? —Not if, as I understand you to mean, all the secondary schools were to be put under the control of the Colleges, with the view to a system of preparatory teaching. 5027. My question had reference to this particular high school. —-An opinion I know is held by some of the governors and officers of Canterbury College that it will be an advantage to have a high school which can be made distinctly preparatory, and in the line of study towards the course of the College afterwards. I think that if it is left to itself it will of necessity be obliged to make itself pre-

Eev. C. Fraser.

April 19, 1879.

Mr. C. C. Bowen.

April 19, 1879.

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!. paratory, but not exclusively so. And, now that there will be two secondary schools here, there will be a certain competition between them, and they will of necessity have to prepare for the University course. The one that does not do so will go to the wall; and I prefer that sort of competition to putting them under tutelage. 5028. Do you think it will be advisable to make the Boys' High School rather representative of the modern side than of the classical; so that there might then be two schools in town which would have sufficient differences to prevent any useless rivalry ? —Tes, I think so. Speaking from a limited knowledge, but so far as I have been able to read and judge, I think that in most cases what is called the bifurcation system has been a failure ; and it would probably be a very advantageous thing if schools took up different lines. 5029. From your knowledge of Christ's College Grammar School can you say whether the governing body has found it possible, with the means at present at its disposal, to secure a fair representation both of the classical and the modern side of the school ?—They have not attempted a regular system of bifurcation. There has been a modified introduction of the principle, by allowing boys to learn German instead of Greek, if their parents desire it. But they have not found it possible to divide the school into classical and modern sides. 5030. And the impossibility arose from want of means ?—I think so. I know they are endeavouring, and have endeavoured to give as much elasticity as possible to their system, but to do it thoroughly would require such an increase of the staff as is beyond their means. There are many people who have a great hostility to classical education, who would take advantage of a school which devoted itself less to that branch of learning and more to others, and there are many on the other hand who would not send their sons to a school where classical teaching was ignored. 5031. Professor Shand.] Do you think that a large proportion of the boys who will come to the proposed boys' high school will proceed afterwards to study in the Canterbury College ? Suppose there were 100 boys attending the school, what proportion of that number would be likely to go through the University course afterwards ?—I should say a very small proportion. Prophecies are not of much use, but my own opinion is that when the two schools are started more boys will come from the old school—Christ's College Grammar School —than from the new one. 5032. If only a small proportion of the boys attending the school will afterwards go through a University course, do you think the main object of the school should be to prepare for the course in Canterbury College ; or should it rather be to provide as complete an education as can be given within the time to those who will not afterwards go to college ?—That is perhaps answered by what I said before. 5033. I wish to know what should be the main object of the school ? —My own impression is that it would be better to leave the school —subject to its coming up to certain standards—to give the education that is most required ; and I feel confident that, where there are two schools in a town, both of them will be obliged, through competition, to prepare for the University. 5034. They will both be obliged to prepare certain pupils, but, at the same time, that will not be the main object of either school? —In all secondary schools, in England and elsewhere, it is the main object for the upper classes, and not for the lower. That is, I think, the case almost everywhere. There is no doubt that the highest class will be, to a great extent, preparatory for the University; that it v. ill be, for the most part, composed of those who remain at school with a view to a subsequent University course. Ido not believe in a preparatory school for a University being established by law. A University ought to embrace young men who bave been prepared in every possible way, and should provide a variety of teaching for every kind of ability and every kind of taste. 5035. Professor Cook.] Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability or otherwise of any general system of examination and inspection of secondary schools ? —Tes ; I think all secondary schools that obtain public assistance ought to be inspected; and I think it would even be an advantage if inspection were offered to all private schools. 5036. Tell us what you mean by inspection in the case of a secondary school. Do you mean inspection in the ordinary sense, where some competent person should go in and see the school at work? —There is a certain difficulty about that ;it is a very difficult thing iv a secondary school. I may mention a case that occurred very lately —Christ's College Grammar School. I know that the governing body of that institution were desirous of submitting to inspection in every sense of the word. But there was a feeling among some of the governors, and I think among some of the masters, that it would not be just to the masters that an Inspector should go in as in the case of a primary school, where there are certain technical modes of teaching, and judge by watching the process of instruction. It was said that men not accustomed to such supervision would not be prepared to teach under those circumstances ; and I am not prepared to say how far that may or may not be the case. We know that, whether rightly or wrongly, masters in secondary schools are not trained to teach in a technical fashion after the manner of primary-school teachers. We know that men have their own modes of teaching, and that masters of public schools teach in the most varied manner within the one school. Each proceeds according to his own idiosyncracy and fancy. In fact, Ido not think some of them would be competent to teach if an Inspector were looking on —and some of them very good teachers too, in their way. 5037. Do you think that a system of inspection such as you have just been alluding to would tend to destroy the idiosyneracies you mentioned, and to reduce all teaching to one dead-level ?—I think it would have that tendency. I may say that at first I saw no objection to it, but I have been thinking about the matter since, and I can understand the feeliug of objection on the part of men who do not teach according to a technical system. 5038. Professor Shand.] Do you not think that an intelligent Inspector who is accustomed to see secondary schools at work would take full account of the circumstances you have stated? —No doubt an intelligent Inspector accustomed to the systems of secondary education at Home would be able to inspect intelligently, and without mischief to the school. But so much would depend on the tact of the individual Inspector that there would be a difficulty about it.

Mr. C. C. Sowen,

April 19,1879.

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5039. Professor Cook.] Do you think it would be good thing if some general system of examination of secondary schools were instituted? —Yes. 5010. Under whose authority should the examiners be appointed ? —Under the authority of the University. Mr. W. Kolleston, M.H.E., sworn and examined. 5041. The Chairman.] Knowing that you have taken a great interest in educational matters the Commission did not like to leave Christchurch without having an opportunity of examining you ; and the question I would ask you is whether, in your opinion, the University education now being given in Canterbury College is a sufficient University education for the community ?—So far as I am aware, it is fully sufficient, presuming that the College is a growing institution, and that further additions to the course of study are likely to be made. There is no provision yet, for instance, in respect to medical education. 5042. There is an endowment, I think, for a medical school ? —But your question was whether I considered the education sufficient at the present time. The institution is in a growing state, and I think it is sufficient if carried on in the way that is proposed. 5043. Do you think the establishment of a medical school in Christchurch would be advisable, or feasible ? —I think it would be feasible within certain limits. 5044. Do you think a full medical education could be given to students in Christchurch ?—I do not think that such an education as would be satisfactory to the public could be completed here, by any means ; but I think that a certain portion of the medical course might be initiated with very great advantage, and particularly the liberal education in connection with the University, leaving the special and technical part to be completed at Home. 5045. With regard to the New Zealand University : do you think it has assumed that position which is best adapted to the requirements of the colony ?—No, Ido not. First of all, Ido not think it possible that the University can meet the general idea of a University in the circumstances of the colony fully, at the present stage of the colony. I think, too, that a great mistake was made in respect to the University when the Amendment Act was passed which made the institution purely an examining body, and relinquished largely the control which the University had previously by subsidizing, after inspection, affiliated institutions ; and I think that it is still open to the University to take a much more controlling and active part as the supreme council of education in the colony. My idea with regard to the University is that, first of all, the Minister of Education should, ex officio, be a member of the University Council; that the University Council should be largely consulted and utilized with regard to secondary education generally, as leading up to what is called " higher instruction " —i.e., instruction above that of grammar schools ; and that it should directly, as well as indirectly through its examinations, affect the status of the secondary schools. At present, as I understand it, the position of the secondary schools of tho colony is this : there are no two of them alike in their standards of education and in their controlling bodies—l refer to the way in which the governing bodies are elected or nominated ; and there is no certainty of the higher education that is given by the professors and capable men in the colleges that do exist being led up to in a proper way by the secondary schools. I think that the University ought to be in a position to insist upon efficient instruction in all institutions which it affiliates. The question of affiliated institutions has, I know, been very much canvassed, aud it comes in with reference to the remarks lam now making. Institutions like the Otago University and Canterbury College have no doubt attained a standard of teaching that probably, for the present, no other institutions in the colony can attain, or will attain, for some years to come. At the same time, I think no opportunity ought to be lost of bringing the University —that is, University teaching —to the people throughout the colony. Now Ido not think the people in all the different parts of a scattered colony, with a number of centres of population, will be brought to these teaching bodies only in Canterbury and Otago; and, practically, the usefulness of the University, as instituting and supervising a system of higher instruction, will be very much limited unless it goes out —as the Universities of Oxford, Cambridge, and London are now practically doing—into the provinces, and enables higher instruction, above that of the Government schools, to be given in the different centres of population, Therefore, for my part, I should be sorry to see anything done which would lessen the possibility of getting even a modicum of the higher instruction which is more completely given in Otago and Canterbury afforded elsewhere, in centres like Auckland, Wellington, Nelson, and, it may be, other places, according as population increases. I hold that the University Council, as a Council of Education, ought to be the advisers of the Government in making provision in every centre of population for a higher kind of instruction than is given in the grammar schools ; and I hold, as I think I have indicated already, that these secondary schools will never come up to the mark, unless a much greater control is exercised over them in point of inspection, and in respect to the appointment of thoroughly efficient masters, capable of working up to the University, than is now exercised. At present, the appointment of masters and the appointment of professors is left (I admit with very great success hitherto in the cases of Canterbury and Otago) practically to local bodies, and that duty is not likely to be so efficiently carried out as it would be—and I say this both with regard to Canturbury and Otago in the future—if'the University had, as it ought to have, a hold over the appointment of professors, and a voice in determining that efficient men shall be selected. 5046. Have you formed any opinion as to whether there should be only one degree-conferring body in New Zealand, or more than one ? —-I have a very decided opinion that there can be only one body which can properly grant degrees in New Zealand with advantage to tho general system of education. I wish to see the University education the crowning-point of the whole educational system of the colony, and connected with our primary schools and secondary schools. I am of opinion, for instance, that a course which I think has already been taken to a certain extent by the general Education Department, I mean the insisting upon the acquirement of a liberal education by the schoolmasters of the country through the University, would form an important link with the primary schools. There would be a further link in the training institutions, which would form a special department in connection with what obtains elsewhere as a Chair of pedagogy in the University—the teaching of the art of teaching.

Mr. C. C. Soioen,

April 19, 1879.

Mr.W.Rolleston.

April 19, 1879.

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That would be a special department in close connection with the liberal education as given in the University, which would qualify the masters for tho primary and secondary schools, and elevate teaching into a profession. I think no worse evil could happen to the general system of education than to have two or three degrees, of probably different values, given throughout the colony. Such a state of things would be quite inconsistent with the view I have expressed of the relation of tho University to the general system of education in the colony. I wish to add my strong opinion that the masters in the grammar schools, at least those teaching elementary subjects, ought to go through a course of training in the art of teaching. 5047. You are aware, no doubt, that an attempt is being made to combine the University education and grammar-school education in the one institution. Do you think that is likely to work well ; or should the two branches of education be kept quite distinct? —I do not think I could have made it plain, in what I have already said, that I do not like that. Ido not like the combining of the two. I think that the one is likely to very considerably prejudice the other, and that, indeed, physically very great difficulties arise in the same men doing their duty iv two spheres. At the same time I feel very strongly that, pending more perfect arrangements, no opportunity of bringing the University, even in a certain degree, into connection with the higher education in the different centres of population should be lost. There are numbers of young men engaged in the practical business of life during the day to whom the opportunity of cultivating their minds and pursuing their education, even to a limited extent, by attending evening lectures, is invaluable. There are few as yet in the colony who can pursue a liberal education at the sacrifice of the opportunities of entering business houses and beginning to make their way. These secondary schools are really the only things on which you can graft a certain amount of higher instruction by lectures outside business hours ; and, for that reason, until there is an absolute certainty of our being able to establish institutions such as are established already in Canterbury and Otago, I would not do anything to prevent such facilities being given for pursuing the University course, or a portion of it, as can be given in connection even with grammar schools. I should like particularly to say, with regard to these secondary schools, that the present position seems to me eminently unsatisfactory. Tou have bodies of men —I am speaking without reference to any one particularly— who have had no previous experience of public-school life, determining, by the action they are taking in respect to the funds at their disposal, what shall be the course of secondary education for years to come; and, from a want of definiteness iv the connecting links of the system, without reference to either the Education Department or the University. Take, for instance, what I see is going on at Timaru. There, I understand from the newspapers, they are establishing a boys' and a girls' school together, without any control from outside. Take, also, the case of the Christchurch Boys' High School. The local governing body has determined to place upon an acre of ground, or possibly an acre and a half, buildings which in a new country ought to be placed on a block of at least twenty acres, if the school is to take the position of the principal training institution for higher education. 5048. Dr Hector.] Tou mean the principal feeding institution for higher education ? —Tes ; as leading up to it. 5049. Tou mentioned that the Minister of Education should be on the University Council. I suppose you mean the governing body —the Senate ? —-Tes. 5050. Professor Cook.] "Would you be in favour of establishing in the principal centres of population in the North Island—Wellington and Auckland—colleges similar to Canterbury College, the colleges being established principally at the public expense ? —Tes. 5051. Tou are aware that there are certain endowments available in the North Island which would not probably be sufficient for some time to come to support these institutions ? —I am aware of that. 5052. In the event of one of these colleges being established in Auckland, where already four institutions of the nature of grammar schools —two grammar schools and two theological colleges— are affiliated to the University, do you think that these institutions should be dissevered from their intimate connection with the University and relegated to the position of being merely feeders to the college proper ? There are two grammar schools in Auckland —the Auckland College and Grammar School, and the Church of England Grammar School. There is also St. John's Church of England College, near Auckland, which is a theological college for the preparation of students for holy orders, and there is Wesley College, at the Three Kings, one of Sir George Grey's trusts. These four institutions are all affiliated to the University. Supposing a properly-equipped college, similar to the Canterbury College, were established in Auckland, would it not be both for the interests of University and secondary education that those schools should be dissevered from the University, and devote themselves to the preparation of students for the College proper ? —I am inclined to think that that would be my view, as far as I can see. 5053. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you rather go iv that direction than in the direction of affiliating the Boy's High School at Christchurch as soon as it is established ? —Tes ; I should see no reason for that. 5054. Dr. Hector.] What do you understand is the effect of such affiliation ?—At present I think it has very little beneficial effect. The benefit of affiliation should, I think, be that of very active inspection and guidance, and help where required. I should not like anything to be done in too great a hurry which would affect any institution efficiently managed; and it would in my opinion be better for the Government to insist upon these secondary schools being brought to a very much higher pitch, before taking a step which might not establish such efficient institutions as those now iv Canterbury and Otago. I feel very strongly that at present there is no guarantee for efficiency in these secondary schools, and, as long as that is the case, you cannot expect the University to be doing its fair work. I think I have already indicated that, in my opinion, the professors ought to have a very much closer connection with the University than they have at present, and that it would not be safe, as the general system of education goes on, to leave the appointment, and possibly the dismissal, of men of the stamp of those who ought to be in the position of professors, entirely in the hands of local bodies, variously constituted as they now are. I wish to be very clear in that. I see possible evils ahead in the interference with the professors —the possibility of the appointment of inefficient men, and the wrongful dismissal of others.

Mr.W. Rolleston.

April 19, 1879.

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Mr.W. Rolletton. April 19, 1879.

5055. Professor Cook.] I presume from what you have said that you have formed some opinion . as to the desirability of a systematic inspection and examination of the secondary schools ? —Yes. 5056. In whose hands would you like to see this inspection and examination left ? I mean, who should appoint the examiners and be responsible —-the G-overnment or the University ?—I cannot conceive a system of inspection in connection with the general system of education other than through the central authority. By the central authority I mean the Government acting in accord with the University, which would be in the position of a Council of Education, of which the Minister of Education would be a member ex officio, and which should generally advise and give guidance and practical assistance in respect to this and other educational matters. I think the appointment should certainly not be by the local bodies. 5057. Have you formed any opinion as to the value of inspection of secondary schools as distinct from examination—l mean, inspection of a character somewhat similar to that which is carried out in the case of primary schools ? —I understood inspection to mean examination too. 5058. Are you inclined to attach any value to inspection, in the ordinary sense of the term, as applied to secondary schools ?—I consider that inspection should go further than mere inspection — that it should include examination. 5059. Are you inclined to attach any value to inspection pure and simple ?—Some; not much. I mean, that a practical man's first impression on seeing a class at work would generally be correct as to the efficiency of the teaching; but he w*ould wish to test them by examination. 5059 a.. Do you think that to give it value the Inspector should be an officer of the Government, or a gentleman appointed by the University ? —My own opinion is that, if the University took its position in regard to the State, with the Minister of Education on the Senate, it would be immaterial whether the Government or the University made the appointment. They would act in accord, the department of the Government availing itself of the resources of the University. 5060. Dr. Hector.] Have you thought whether it would be desirable to establish a Board, which would consist of gentlemen of high attainments, who would form an examining body for the University examinations and act also as inspectors of secondary and higher educational institutions ?—I have not thought of that. It seems to me feasible. 5061. Tou are aware that the great difficulty in the work of the University is to find examiners. Do you think it would be possible to appoint as examiners persons whose reports on the general educational system and the working of the different institutions w*ould be advantageous ? —I was going to ask the Commission to let me state my view on the examination question. I have held very strongly that it is inexpedient to send the examination papers to Melbourne, as has been done, or to England, as is proposed to he done. I think the existence of the University presumes that amount of good faith and that capability, through its professors, of conducting examinations whicli renders it certainly inexpedient to send examination papers out of the colony. At the same time I am aware that the professors themselves, to whose opinions very great weight ought to be attached in a matter of this kind, have felt that it would remove any possible objections on the ground of partiality or unfairness if the course was taken that has been taken: and I think I am right in saying that the course was taken with their concurrence, if not at their suggestion. I have discussed the matter, and I remember discussing it with one gentleman who said, " The Auckland people would say at once that the papers Set by Otago professors favoured the course of study that had been followed in Otago." Ido not myself attach much weight to such objections and I think they could be outlived, and that the difficulties that arise from sending papers out of the colony are far greater than any difficulties that are likely to arise from the objections and suspicions of such people as have not confidence in the examinations which would be conducted under the direction of the University by the available men in the colony. At the same time if public opinion, and if, particularly, the teaching body, would be better satisfied with some outside authority, my own opinion is that it would pay the colony to import, say, two men yearly, possessing the latest knowledge of the state of higher education in England, who would be grouped with men of our own in forming such a Board of Examiners as must give satisfaction to the public. The objections that might be raised by individual teachers would shortly vanish, I think, and Ido not very much respect them myself. There is a littleness about them. Ido not think that such as have been raised indicate a very high view of the character of men who certainly deserve better than to have any suspicion as to their impartiality thrown upon them. 5062. The Chairman.] Tou expressed an opinion in favour of establishing m the chief centres of population collegiate institutions, such as exist in Canterbury and Otago. Supposing these were established, would you have them combined into a University something like the Queen's University in Ireland ?—There is a double view of the University : one is that the University is an aggregation or kind of federation of colleges, like what I understand the Queen's University to be. At the same time I think that, in a new country like this, it has another phase, and is of the nature of a supreme council of education connected with the Government of the country. I do not know whether I have made myself clear. It has a double capacity. It should be a federation of the colleges —that is, of the teaching bodies —and it should properly represent the learning of the aggregation of these places. Eor instance, I hold that Otago and Canterbury, from the position they have taken in regard to higher education, should be largely represented in the University. As other centres arose, and as learning increased in them, such learning would be more largely represented in the University Council, as representing the federation or aggregation of colleges. But I think we havo got an opportunity here of connecting the University, as a council of advice, with the Government of the country, thereby making it sensitive to popular opinion, and making it also a guiding body of the standard of education, which ought not to be lost sight of. The country will not delegate its powers in respect to the educational system to any body which is not more or less under its control. 5063. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou think that in any case the Government ought to be strongly represented on the University Senate—that a large nominating power ought to be in the hands of the Government ?■ —l think so. 33— H. 1.

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5064. Do you think that the colleges in the different parts of the colony, either in their corporate capacity, or partly in that respect and partly through their professors, should be represented upon the governing body of the University ?—I certainly think they should be represented. The measure of representation, and how it should be effected, are very difficult questions. There is no doubt in my mind that the more learning there is represented the greater will be the efficiency in respect to the national work. Before concluding I wish to say again that, iv my opinion, no modification of the University will satisfy the requirements of the colony, which proceeds upon the idea that the youth of the colony can be induced to move their residence from the localities where their relatives live, or business has ties upon them, to pursue what is understood by a University course in the older Universities, away from the places with which they are connected. We want to disseminate culture as widely as possible, and the means of pursuing liberal studies should be as widely diffused as possible.

Mr.W.Solleston.

April 19, 1879,

Wellington, Tuesday, 22__d Apeil, 1879. PRESENT : Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Hon. W. Gisborne, Dr. Hector, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan. Hon. M. S. Grace, M.D., M.L.C, sworn and examined. 5065. The Chairman.] There has been an idea abroad, Dr. Grace, in favour of the establishment of a medical school. .Knowing that you have been for some time in practice in Wellington, we would like to hear your opinion as to the feasibility of establishing such a school in the colony, or in several portions of the colony?—I do not think it is possible to establish an efficient medical school, for completing a medical education, anywhere in the colony. 5066. Could the preliminary portion of a medical education be given iv the large centres of population ? —I do not think it would be advisable to attempt to give eveii a portion of a medical education in the large centres of population ; but I think that in one large centre it could be easily managed. I think that in one large centre the preliminary education of medical students could be very benehcially undertaken. 5067. Dr. Hector.] Would it be necessary in that case that these preliminary studies should be recognized by some degree-granting body outside the colony, lest the time should be lost to the students ? —lt would be absolutely necessary that such preliminary education should be recognized by some degree-conferring body, and that is the reason why I think it would be necessary to confine such preliminary education to some one large centre; because I do not think any degree-conferring body would recognize several such medical schools in a colony of the size of New Zealand. 5068. Bey. W. J. Habens.] "What portion of the studies of a medical student do you think could well be undertaken in the colony ? —That would altogether depend, in my opinion, upon the efficiency of any particular hospital in the colony. If there was one hospital efficiently managed at which the preliminary instruction could be given, and in which the doctors were willing to devote sufficient time, and had capacity enough to do it, it would be quite possible, in my opinion, to give the two first years' medical education. It would be a great benefit to the colonists and to the students also. 5069. We have it in evidence that at Christchurch, with a hospital having 120 beds, it would be possible to establish sixteen lectureships, distributed amongst eleven teachers, who are willing to undertake the work of instruction. Do you think that, assuming the efficiency of the instructors ■ —a question upon which, of course, Ido not ask an opinion—such an arrangement as that would suffice for the first two years' medical study ? —ln answering that question the first difficulty that occurs to me is the character of the hospital, and the patients occupying these 120 beds; the second has reference to the capacity of such eleven teachers to impart sufficient technical information in a hospital occupied by such a restricted class of cases as are usual in our hospitals. An important difficulty arises from the fact that the custom of the country forces nearly all medical men into general practice, and that it is very difficult for medical men actively engaged in general practice to devote the necessary attention to the instruction of medical students. 5070. Dr. Hector.] In the event of a medical school being established in any part of New Zealand, do you think it would be advisable to procure lecturers from Home ? —Tes ; excepting where men of exceptional fitness are procurable. 5071. Would you think it advisable that persons holding the position of professors in a medical school should be debarred from private practice? —I do not think they ought to be debarred from private practice as consulting physicians and surgeons. 5072. Would that apply equally to all the Chairs ? —lt would apply to the Chairs in medicine and surgery, and probably to the Chair of physiology. It ought to exclude the Chairs of chemistry, and, of course, botany, geology, and so on. 5073. The Chair of anatomy for instance ?—There is no reason why the demonstrator of anatomy should be excluded from consulting practice. 5074. And from general practice ? —I consider that the men who are brought out to the colony for the purpose of teaching should be excluded from general practice, simply because the State would require a guarantee that they were devoting their time and attention to the education of their pupils. But I would make this distinction, which is most important: that they should not be debarred irom a hospital practice, but should be ex officio permanently connected with the hospital. 5075. Then do you think the hospital should be under the control of the school of medicine, when such institution is established ? —lt is absolutely necessary, if you establish a school of medicine, that the hospital should be under the control of the professors. 5076. Does that control to your mind include the control of lay matters—the housekeeping, and so on ?—Certainly not; it merely includes the control and management of the sick in the wards, the discipline of the institution, and the economy of its management.

Dr. Grace.

April 22, 1879.

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5077. Have you any opinion on the subject of whether hospitals throughout the colony should be managed by one permanently appointed medical man, or generally by the medical men in the localities ? —Seeing the enormous extravagance prevailing in almost all the hospitals in the colony, I am of opinion that a competent medical man ought to reside iv each hospital, and have charge of its economy, discipline, and administration, but that the medical treatment of the important cases should be intrusted to medical men in the cities, of recognized ability and position, from whom, in these matters, the resident medical man should take his instructions. 5078. Who is better able to judge of what is necessary and unnecessary in the conduct of a hospital in the way of expense —a medical man in charge of that hospital, or an external Board ? —Nobody can judge of what is necessary in an hospital except a competent medical man. 5079. Then, in the event of a medical school being established, what position would the resident medical officer in charge of the hospital hold to that school ? —He might very well occupy the position, for example, of a lecturer upon physiology. If he were a very competent man, he might occupy the position of a lecturer on surgery or medicine. What is necessary in this matter is to look to efficiency and economy, and therefore you would have to be influenced by the character of the man and his capacity. 5080. Do you think the amount of work that would be thrown on a resident medical man would not interfere with his duties as lecturer ? —Certainly not with his duties of lecturer on the practice of medicine, lecturer on surgery, or even lecturer on physiology. 5081. Tou mean tho clinical lectures? —Tes. There is nothing to prevent his giving those lectures. His position would facilitate his work as lecturer. 5082. The Chairman.] Do you know whether there has been any desire on the part of the Wellington community to establish a medical school here?— Not the slightest. The thing is not dreamt of ; we know it is impossible. 5033, Tou are aware that in certain other parts of the colony such a desire has been expressed ?— lam aware that such a desire exists in Dunedin, and, I think, legitimately so. Such a desire exists also in Christchurch. 5034. It was stated in evidence at Christchurch that eight young men were anxious to obtain a medical education there, but were debarred from doing so in consequence of the want of a medical school. Has that want been felt in Wellington, as far as you know? —Hitherto, young men in Wellington who desired to study medicine have been sent to England. 5085. Dr. Hector.] Do you happen to know what arrangements exist at present for securing a sufficient technical education in the practice of pharmacy, for assistants in druggists' shops ? —I do not think there are any. 5086. Do you think it is desirable that before a person is allowed to dispense drugs he should be required to produce some certificate of his competency ? —I think it is of the very first importance. One's experience shows that the grossest ignorance prevails amongst what are called chemists' assistants. 5087. Could you mention any cases that have occurred in your own experience to show that some provision is necessary ? —Tes, I could mention cases. I know of at least two dispensers who have never had any systematic education at all. 5088. Do you know of any miscarriages through that want of education ? —I know of minor miscarriages. I will take one ordinary case : I ordered, the other day, a solution of nitrate of silver, one grain to the ounce of distilled water. My patient received a compound which was cloudy all through—perfectly muddy. The lotion was for the eye, in a delicate case of ulceration of the cornea. It was clear, in the first place, that the water used was not only not distilled water, but w*ater of very bad quality for that purpose, owing to the amount of decomposition. It w*as evident that there was a larger amount of nitrate of silver than there ought to have been. But as soon as the dispenser had mixed his muddy compound, ho had covered it carefully up with blue paper ; showing that he had not the slightest idea what the paper wrapper was for —evidence, in short, of the grossest ignorance. 5039. And such ignorance might lead to serious results ? —lt did lead to serious results —to acute inflammation of the eye —and wasted three weeks of my treatment. 5090. Do you think that, as a rule, throughout the colony, with regard to young persons employed by druggists as assistants, and even druggists themselves, there is imperfect technical education ?— Those who are raised in the colony as a rule have no accurate education of any kind. 5091. Do you think a better standard of technical education exists in England ? —There is no comparison. The one is a standard in reality ; the other is only imaginary. 5092. Do you know how the provision is secured at Home ? What is the machinery ? —lt is secured in the first place, as I understand, by an indentured apprenticeship ; in the second place, by a certain course of education; and in the third place, by an examination. 5093. By whom is the examination conducted ?—There is an Apothecaries' Hall in England. There is no doubt that men educated in that way in England are very well educated indeed as regards accuracy, and as regards knowledge of their business. It is a pleasure to see them work. 5094. Do you know if there is any legal provision at Home requiring druggists' assistants to have a certificate from one of these institutions?—l think there is. I think there is a provision prohibiting the employment of an assistant without a distinct certificate of education. 5095. Do you think such a legal provision would be desirable in New Zealand ? —I think it is imperatively necessary, and more required here than in England, because here all the druggists' assistants practice medicine. 5096. What amount of preliminary education should be insisted upon, and by whom should it be given ? Should there be a special school, or should it be connected with some college ? —The simplest way to manage it would be to have the teaching connected with the college through the instrumentality of lectures, and have the test of efficiency dependent upon examination. Tou could easily get a man, competent to see whether a druggists' assistant was qualified.

Dr. Grace.

April 22, 1879.

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5097. Could the information be read up by the druggist without regularly-conducted studies ? —I do not think so. Ido not think you can educate a druggist without the assistance of a laboratory and specimens. . But with a laboratory, specimens, books, and a reasonable amount of teaching, you can bring an intelligent man up to a very high state of efficiency. If his preliminary education is at all good you would be astonished at the state of proficiency he would attain in a couple of years. 5098. How much preliminary education would be required ? I mean, what examination in classics, if any, would be necessary ?—An ordinary high-school examination in classics would be sufficient. A man should know a book or two of Csesar, just to show he has an outline of Latin. His education should come up to 'the extent of Euclid. Mathematics would be of infinite importance. Eighteen months or two years devoted with some regularity to the study of his subject, based upon such an education as that, would make a man quite efficient, provided he had the use of a laboratory and specimens. Under the present system I see growing up around me every day men of the grossest ignorance, and yet with the supremest confidence in their powers. 5099. I suppose it is a class of occupation in which there would be a good outlet for employment? —It is a class of occupation which is rising in public favour very much. 5100. Are not persons compounding and selling drugs in country districts often called upon in cases of emergency to undertake higher medical duties ? —Tes, constantly. 5101. They make a practice of it ?—Tes. 5102. So that on that ground you would consider it more important that their education should even be of a higher standard than that required at Home ? —lt is of the first importance that their education should be of the highest standard ; because in England men confine themselves to certain forms or prescriptions which are furnished to them by medical men prescribing; here, there is no doubt, chemists originate combinations of a most ingenious character, and the result sometimes must be very serious—in fact, I know it is. 5103. Tou are talking now of the manner in which medical men prescribe? —No; the mode in which chemists prescribe. A chemist in England, when he does prescribe, almost invariably turns up a form, and he sees it is a good form and dispenses it, because the man is in terror of the coroner ; but in New Zealand they indulge in spontaneities, and originate, and the result is very grave. I find men coming to me with their teeth falling out from the effects of mercury given to them by chemists. 5104. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think a serious injury is done to a young man by apprenticing him to a chemist and druggist whose own education is very imperfect ? —I think a serious injury is done to the public, because they do not know whether he is technically educated or not. 5105. If a young man honestly desires to prepare himself for the business of a chemist and druggist, and with that view is apprenticed to a chemist and druggist whose education is very imperfect, does that young man suffer seriously in his own preparation, and are his intentions to any great degree frustrated ?—They are frustrated completely. 5106. Do you think that a chemist and druggist should be compelled to give some proof of his own education before he is allowed to take an apprentice ? —Certainly. A youth apprenticed to an ignorant dispenser of medicine is pretty certain to be easily satisfied with the standard of his master. 5107. The Chairman.] Is there any regular system in the colony of apprenticing young men to chemists ? —Not that I have heard of. There is no regular system of apprenticing young men. There is a kind of scratch method by which a chemist takes a boy at a low figure and agrees to keep him a certain number of years at a low figure. 5108. There is no legal recognition of apprenticeship ? —I am not aware. 5109. In your opinion has the University of New Zealand assumed the position most calculated to advance the interests of University education throughout the colony ? —I have no doubt of it. I have given the matter very great consideration for years, and I have come to the conclusion that the authorities have taken the course that is most likely to subserve the interests of high-class education throughout the colony, and the only course opening to them a clear prospect of succeeding in that object. 5110. Dr. Hector.] I suppose you look upon the University arrangements not as final, but such as will grow and improve ?—I look upon the University arrangements as being in a state of growth—in a state of development. The virtue of the University arrangements consists in their capacity for easy adjustment to the circumstances of the colony —in their elasticity, in the absence of rigidity of outline, and the conservation of sufficient check to prevent high-class education from becoming a mere sham in the colony. These are the reasons why I look upon the determination of the University to spread itself out, so as to control high-class education, as being essentially in the order of wisdom. 5111. Tou are no doubt aware that in Otago and in Canterbury there are collegiate institutions capable of giving a University education. Do you think that system ought to be extended throughout the colony ? —I think it would be a very desirable thing to have such a system extended throughout the colony. That is unquestionable. 5112. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that if several such institutions existed it would be well to modify the present mode of appointing the Senate of the University by allowing the governing bodies of those institutions, and, perhaps, also the professors, to have a direct voice in the appointment of a certain number of the members of the Senate ? —I think so j the rather, because anything that gives life to the University is of the first importance to its interests. 5113. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that if the management of such matters as the prescribing of the curriculum and the general University requirements for examinations were left to a body wholly formed from the governing bodies of the local colleges, complications might not arise ? —I think such complications would arise as to render it impossible for the students to make any real progress. I find that educational men as a body are so intensely theoretic that they overleap all reason in their requirements. Mr. Kenneth Wilson, M.A., sworn and examined. 5114. The Chairman.] Tou are headmaster of "Wellington Grammar School ? —Tes. 5115. How long have you held that position ?—I was appointed in April, 1874. I have been in charge four years and a-half.

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5116. What was your educational experience before receiving the appointment ?—I had been for j over two years second master of King Edward the Sixth's Grammar School, in Southampton. Before that I had been for one and a-half years at a tutor's near London, where our chief work was to prepare candidates for direct commissions ; and before that, for four years, senior assistant master of a private school in Cheshire, which was mainly preparatory for the public schools. 5117. Tou are a University graduate ? —Tes ; an M.A. of Cambridge. 5118. What are the duties of the headmaster of the college over which you preside ? —He is responsible for the general direction of the work and discipline, and he has also to take the higher forms in the main body of their work —that is to say, in English and classics. At present there are only two of us who take the whole school in those subjects, there being a special master for mathematics, a special lecturer for natural science, and a special master for modern languages. 5119. "With regard to the other teachers in the school, are they appointed by yourself or by the governing body ? —Eormally appointed by the governing body. Of course my recommendation is supposed to have more or less weight, but the governing body are entirely responsible for the appointments. 5120. Dr. Hector.] Has that state of things existed since your appointment ? —I have, on several occasions, jjressed the governors to define our relative positions in that respect, but it has never been done. On my appointment in England it was first intimated to me that I might probably be asked to select a couple of men and bring them out with me. That request, however, was countermanded, and when I came here I found the staff already provided. I was told by one or two members of the Board that if I was dissatisfied with any of the staff the Board would no doubt act upon my recommendation ; but no formal arrangement was, or has yet been, come to on that point. 5121. Practically, have you ever been consulted as to the appointment of masters ?—Tes, whenever there have been masters appointed. Until the other day there was only one appointment since I came, and in that case I was consulted, and my recommendation was accepted. 5122. Tou mean there has only been one case since you came ?—There has only been one case since I came, until recently. 5123. The Chairman.] Is there any minimum age fixed for the admission of pupils to the college ? ■ —No. By recently-revised regulations they are supposed to pass an examination. Any boy who passes that examination, as I understand, is to be admitted irrespective of age. 5124. Would you describe the examination ?—lt is to be based on the Fourth Standard under the recent Education Act, which includes, I think, reading, dictation, English grammar, elementary history, geography, and arithmetic. 5125. What number of pupils are at present attending the school ?—Seventy. 5126. Does that number include boarders ? —Tes ; twelve of those are boarders. 5127. Had you ever a larger number of boarders ? —Tes ; we had twenty-eight, which is about as many as there is accommodation for. 5128. Is Greek taught in the school as a part of the regular course of study ? —Tes ; but in this way : that in the two higher forms each boy must learn either Greek or German ; as a matter of fact, by far the greater majority learn German. I think the greatest number we have had learning Greek at any one time has been seven. 5129. Is drawing taught as part of the school course ? —lt was until a year ago, when it was given up because the drawing-master did not give satisfaction, and we did not see our way at the time to getting any one else —there was a difficulty in doing so. I got drawing put upon the course when I came, and have always been extremely anxious that it should be a part of the school course. I only look upon the present arrangement as temporary, and shall restore the subject as soon as possible. 5130. Is the present staff of masters, in your opinion, sufficient for the conduct of such a grammar school as yours ?—Until last Christmas we had a staff consisting of myself, a second master, and an assistant master—who took the general work in English and classics between them —a mathematical master, a modern-languages master, a natural-science master, and, until ho gave up, a drawing-master. That staff was, I think, quite sufficient for the working of the school. Now, from the beginning of next term, the assistant master's services have been dispensed with. A fresh second master and a fresh mathematical master have been appointed, the other members of the staff being retained. That number I do not consider sufficient permanently to carry on the work of the school, even with our present numbers ; certainly, any considerable increase of pupils would render the appointment of an assistant master, in my opinion, absolutely necessary for the efficient working of the school. 5131. Dr. Hector.] What was the reason for the reduction of the staff? —As I understood, the reason was a financial one. 5132. Motives of economy ?—Tes. 5133. Was it not also desired to increase the efficiency?—Tes ; but, apart from any personal question as connected with the individual members of the staff, I do not think it was considered that knocking off one master would increase the efficiency of the institution. I mean the desire to increase the efficiency was the reason for making the change generally; but the particular item of knocking off one master, I presume, was dictated solely by motives of economy, it being considered that an increase of twenty boys or so would provide sufficient means for the payment of an assistant master. 5134. The Chairman.] In your opinion, is much benefit derived from affiliation with the New Zealand University ?—I do not think so, as far as we are concerned. So long as attendance at some given institution for a definite period is required by the New Zealand University, it is clearly a benefit. But that provision seems in itself to be a nominal one. 5135. Do you think that the combination of secondary education' —by which I mean grammarschool education —and University education can be worked well in the one institution ? —I think it can be worked well in the one institution, but not permanently by the same staff. 5136. Is the curriculum in your school framed in order to meet affiliation with the University of New Zealand ?—Tes. 5137. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you say in what respect the curriculum, as it is now framed, differs from what you think would be in use in the school if Wellington College were not affiliated f—>

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I am not sure that it differs at all, because if Wellington College were not affiliated, we should still— at least I imagine so —continue to send up boys for the University scholarships. Therefore, with the exception of^the highest class, the curriculum would still remain the same, because we should have the same object. 51158. Dr. Hector.] Do you mean that the curriculum is intended to prepare for competing for scholarships merely, or to conduct the education of undergraduates ? —Of course, the curriculum is, as I take ir, framed mainly with the view to the preparation for scholarships and matriculation ; while we should also generally have a higher class doing the work of undergraduates. 5139. Then, is there no part of your curriculum adapted for carrying forward students for degrees ? —Yes ; until last year we had students for degrees, aud the work of the highest class was arranged with a view thereto. 5140. The Chairman.] What is the precise number of regular teachers in the College ? —There is the headmaster, the second master, the mathematical master, the modern-languages master, and the natural-science lecturer —five. There is also a drill-sergeant. 5141. How many of the staff are University graduates ?—-Three. 51_2. Dr. Hector.] What has been the maximum number of pupils ? —I think the maximum waa 118—you may say 120 in round numbers. 5143. In what year was that ?—That was in the last term of 1875, or the first term of 1876. 5144. Can you attribute tbe falling-off in numbers to any definite cause ? —Yes, I think so. Prom the opening of the new school the numbers went up steadily until the second term of 1876. In that term one of the boarders died from low fever, and in the third term two of the boys had scarlet fever, which necessitated the removal of the school to temporary premises in town. Accordingly, in the first term of 1877 the numbers dropped to ninety. I think that was the main reason. I think there were subsidiary reasons. The fever and other things gave rise to a good deal of discussion, and so forth, in which divers misstatements were made with regard to the institution. I regard those misstatements, without going into details, as being subsidiary reasons for the falling-oft' iv the numbers. 5145. Having that experience, do you think it desirable in the interests of a large school that boarding should be carried on within the same building ? —I think so. I think that any difficulty on that ground might be obviated by having —as is frequently done —a small detached hospital, to which any infectious case might; be removed. 5146. Do you see any great advantage in having the boarding accommodation in the same building as the school —part of the same building ?—No, I see no advantage. I mean to say that if the boarders were in a detached house it would be better. 5147. What I meant by my previous question was, do you see any disadvantage, having the experience before you which you have just referred to ?—I do not think so, because even if the boarders were in a separate building it would be very desirable to have the detached hospital still. 5148. Have you such a detached hospital ? —We have not. 5149. Is the building accommodation for the school purposes at present sufficient ?—Yes ; it is sufficient, as far as teaching is concerned, for our present numbers. 5150. Supposing the numbers increased again to anything like the same proportion to the population that attended in 1876 —of course the number would be much greater than at that time —would you have sufficient accommodation ?—I think that for actual teaching we could provide sufficient and good accommodation for 150. That, however, would take certain of the rooms which at present are used for boarders. 5151. Supposing the whole building now used for boarding and residence were required for teaching, would it be more desirable, in your opinion, to provide for boarders in a separate building, or rather to let the present building continue as it is, and add rooms for school purposes ?—Not taking the question of expense into account, I should think it would be better to utilize the present building for teaching purposes, and build, fresh accommodation for boarders and residence. 5152. Is it very important for the success of the school, in your opinion, that there should be boarding accommodation provided at all ?—I think it is. I was going to say, absolutely essential. 5153. The Chairman.] Do country settlers send their sons to the school as boarders ?—They did so largely until the illness I spoke of occurred ; in fact, at one time I had to refuse one or two for want of room, and we have still several sons of settlers as boarders. 5154. What is the income available for the maintenance of the Grammar School ?—The receipts for the. year 1878 were £SlO for tuition fees, £853 for boarding, £55 from the evening classes, £2 2s. matriculation fees, aud £769 rent of reserves. In addition to those receipts there are special funds. The Government grant last year was £2,574, which, however, includes arrears from the previous year, and also some of this year's grant paid in advance ; and then there is the Turnbull Pund. Exclusive of tuition fees the income received last year from endowments was £709. 5155. How does that arise ? —Trom the rents of lands in Wellington and the district. 51.56. Bey. W. J. Habens.] And what charges have to be deducted from that sum before any of it is available for the ordinary purposes of the school ? —There was a charge last year of £243. This sum is the interest on a loan of £5,000, which expired the other day, and the governors are unable to obtain the money at less than 10 per cent.; so that now there will be a charge of £500 for interest on loan to come out of the £769. There is also a charge of £40 for insurauce, and £27 for commission. 5157. Dr. Hector.] Is not a great part of the rental from the endowment swallowed up in interest on the building loan ?—Yes; undoubtedly so. The items I have just mentioned make up nearly £600, which will have to come out of the £769 ; and that is not taking into account anything for the maintenance of the building. 5158. What was the charge for the maintenance of the building that year?— Two hundred and two pounds, in addition to insurance. 5159. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does the College receive any annual grant from the Government ?— It received a grant of £1,000 last year, and it received the previous year a grant of £1,500, which was an ad interim arrangement, and a continuation of what it had been previously receiving from the Provincial Government.

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5160. And does this depend on an annual vote ?—Tes, entirely. 5161. The Chairman.] What are the fees for day-boys? —The fees hitherto have been nine guineas a year for boys under twelve, and twelve guineas for boys over twelve. They have just been reduced. 5162. And for boarders ?—Ten guineas a year for day-boarders—that is, those who get their dinner at the College ; £15 a year for weekly boarders, and fifty guineas for full boarders. 5163. Dr. Hector.] There havo been changes recently in the fees ?—Tes. As regards the dayscholars, the fees havo been reduced, the division being now not one of age, but position in the school. In the lower part of the school they are seven and a-half guineas, and in the upper part nine guineas. 5164. Bey. W. JE. Mulgan.] The lower division of the lower school ? —Tes. 5165. And when you go to the upper school it is twelve?—No; I do not think the governors have made any arrangement with regard to that. It is simply two —seven and a-half and nine at present. 5166. The Chairman.] Do you receive any allowance for procuring maps, diagrams, and scientific apparatus for the school ? —No fixed allowance. 5167. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is a sufficient supply of such things granted by the Board of Governors?— There has hardly been of late. I have refrained from asking for some items latterly—not very large ones in themselves —knowing that the governors were not in possession of funds for the purpose. 5168. Bey. W. JE. Mulgan.] Have you a library in the school for the pupils?—Wo have about 150 or 200 volumes, I think—just the commencement of a library. 51C9. Are they supplied by the governors ?—No. The library was provided by gifts from private persons. 5170. The Chairman.] "Who were the examiners who conducted the last periodical examination? —In languages —that is to say, Latin, Greek, French, and German —Mr. Gordon Allan, barrister; in mathematics, Mr. Edward Miller; in natural science, Dr. Hector; and in English, the Eev. W. H. West, B.A. 5171. These were all outside the staff of teachers ? —-Entirely ; and every year since I have been here the examination has been conducted by gentlemen in no way connected with the staff. 5172. Are prizes awarded as the results of the examination ? —Tes. 5173. Are they given according to the results of the examination, or the conduct of the pupils during the preceding period? —A union of the two. Speaking generally, the prizes and the final position on the school-roll of tho year are decided about equally by the marks for the 3*ear and the examination-marks. In the lower classes, rather more weight is given to the marks for the year, and in the other classes rather more weight to the examination. 5174. What punishments are in use at the school? —Impositions, keeping the bo}'s in, incase of any work that has not been done, and corporal punishment on occasions, administered by myself only. 5175. Do you receive any pupils from the primary schools?—Tes. Scholarships are given by the governors specially for boys Irom the primary schools, and an examination is held every year. There has been oue, and sometime., more than one, given each year since I have been here. Those boys, of course, come to the College, and we receive a good many others from primary schools who come of their own motion. 5176. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you received any w*ho have been sent up with scholarships from the Board of Education ? —Not yet; there has been no examination held for that purpose. 5177. Dr. Hector.] With regard to the scholarships from the primary schools, what has been the nature of the examination hitherto ? —The regulation requires that the examination should be in the subjects taught in the primary schools. The examination has hitherto been in English grammar, history, geography, and arithmetic, with a subsidiary voluntary paper in elementary science. Now, the examination is to be in the subjects of the Sixth Standard, with Latin accidence, the Eirst Book of Euclid, and elementary algebra added, as subjects which may be taken up. But the main examination will be iv tho Sixth Standard; those extra subjects will only have a small number of marks allotted to them. 5178. Bey. W. JE. Mulgan.] Is there one scholarship each 3*ear ? —-There aro four scholarships, and they are tenable between the ages of twelve and sixteen, so that there must be at least one each year. As the scholarships at present consist simply —and they have always partly consisted —of the remission of fees, I have asked the governors, and they have acceded to my wish, on one or two occasions to give more than one, when I thought there were two boys very nearly of equal merit. 5179. And a boy who obtains one of these scholarships—to what class in the school does that raise him ? What class of the school does he at once enter? —There has been a difficulty in that respect, in consequence of the fact that no Latin and no mathematics are taught in the primary schools. Boys who come to us with these scholarships could, as far as their knowledge of English is concerned, go into the third form ; while, as far as their knowledge of Latin and mathematics is concerned, they should go into the first. As a matter of fact, we have been obliged to make a compromise, and treat them, to a certain extent, specially; and it is with a view to meeting that difficulty that these additional subjects are now* introduced into the scheme of examination—in order that boys who come from primary schools may, if possible, have begun a little Latin aud mathematics, so that we may be able to classify them in a more satisfactory manner. 5180. Dr. JHector.] Tou said there were four scholars from the primary schools. Are there any other scholarships given by the governors of the College?—Tes; two scholarships founded by Mr. Turnbull, of the value of £25 each, tenable ior two years, which are given according to the results of the University examination which has hitherto been the junior scholarship examination, aud which, in future, I presume, will be the entrance examination. There are also two other scholarships—one founded by the late Mr. Bhodes, and the other by the late Mr. Moore. Ido not exactly know in what way the governors have invested the money —£500 in each case—but I suppose we may say the annual

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value is £45. One is tenable for two years, and one for three years; one requiring six months' previous residence at the College, and the other being entirely open, but to be also awarded by the results of tho entrance examination. 5181. How did the scholarships from the primary schools arise ? —-A sum of, I think, £1,200, which remained from some savings bank in Wellington that was wound up about the time of the commencement of the building of the College, was given to the governors to be devoted to the building fund, on the understanding that they should establish these four scholarships from primary schools of which I have just been speaking. 5182. The Chairman^] Are there any undergraduates of the New Zealand University at present attending your school ?—Not attending the school; there are at present between two and four—l will not state the exact number —attending the evening classes. 5183. Have you a special master for conducting evening classes, or is the work done by some of the ordinary staff ?—lt is done by the ordinary staff. 5184. Are there any pupils at present preparing for matriculation in the New Zealand University?—Tes. 5185. How many ? I cannot quite say how many I shall send up, because I have not had time yet to digest fully the new scheme of the University. I should think we shall send up about ten next Christmas for the entrance examination. 5180. Dr. Hector.] How far will these ten pupils, supposing they are successful at the entrance examination, have exhausted the teaching power of the College under the present arrangement? How far could they continue their studies after they have matriculated, with the present staff and arrangements ?—They could continue their work up to the B.A. Standard, certainly as far as the compulsory subjects are concerned. I mean to say it would require no re-arrangement of our work to continue them in Latin and mathematics amply up to that standard. I can hardly say what we might be able to do in the way of English ; but they might also be taken up to that point in modern languages. 5187. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you expect boys who have been a year in the fifth form to pass the entrance examination ? —Tes. 5188. Dr. Hector.] Tou think that with the teaching appliances you have now, undergraduates continuing their studies at Wellington College would have a fair chance of competing for the degree examinations and for senior scholarships against undergraduates trained at institutions like those at Otago and Canterbury which are specially endowed, and devote their whole work to such teaching ?— Certainly not. When I said we could continue our work ud to the B.A. Standard, I only meant as regards the pass examination. 5189. If there was an institution similar to Canterbury College established at Wellington, to which the present Wellington College would act as a feeder, what number of pupils do you think, from your experience, you would be able to send forward to the higher college ? I mean, what number of your pupils would go forward ?—I do not think more than three or four. 5190. As a matter of fact, do any of your pupils at present go to Canterbury or Otago, where alone such institutions exist ?—No. 5191. Do you attribute that to a want of desire on the part of parents to give their children a higher education ? —Or to a supposed want of ability to do so. 5192. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think there are any circumstances which render the people of Wellington less likely to avail themselves of opportunities of University instruction, as distinct from grammar-school instruction, than the people of other places of the same size ?—Well, I presume the existence of the Government departments in Wellington acts against University education very considerably, by taking boys away from school at fifteen or sixteen. 5193. Do you think that, after the first effect of the establishment of the Government departments in Wellington has passed away, the tendency will be in a different direction from that which you have mentioned ? —I do not wish to express a decided opinion on the subject; but it seems to me that Civil servants with very limited incomes are just the class by whom an immediate return is most likely to be appreciated. 5194. The Chairman.] Do you think the present New Zealand University has assumed the form best suited to the requirements of the colony with regard to University education ? —No, I do not think it has. 5195. Perhaps you will explain what form you think it ought to take—whether a system of colleges established in the centres of population, combined into a University something like the Queen's University in Ireland, would be a suitable system for University education in New Zealand ?—The first difficulty in answering that question is, it seems to me, that it depends so much on the probable increase in the population within the next ten or fifteen years. It does not appear to me that at present there is material to maintain residential colleges in the principal towns, if by your question I understand you to mean an institution giving University education to its students, and requiring a residence of two or more years as a necessary qualification. 5196. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the University of New Zealand should be located in one spot, with a staff of professors, as in the case of Oxford and Cambridge ? —The question becomes involved to some extent with the previous one. If there is not at present, and if there is no probability of there soon being, sufficient population to maintain an efficient and tolerably numerouslyattended college in each place, clearly it would be better that there should be one good one in the colony, rather than that there should be four or five starved ones. My own impression is decidedly in favour of that —of one central teaching University. 5197. Dr. Hector.] Do you consider that the New Zealand University up to the present time has been of service to the cause of higher education ? —Undoubtedly I think it has been of service. 5198. In what way has it been most useful?—l think by its scholarships. Of its work in the matter of senior scholarships I have not much personal knowledge. I mean, rather, junior scholarships. 5199. That is one of its functions as an examining body, apart from teaching ?—Tes.

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5200. Bey. W. J. Habens.] At what age do you think the minimum for the holding of junior scholarships should be fixed ? —Sixteen. 5201. And supposing the holding of a scholarship involved the entry upon life in a collegiate institution rather than in a school, would you think that sixteen would then be a suitable age ?—I think so, here. Tou might not have the arrangement of your collegiate institution quite the same as you would were the age nineteen; still, I think sixteen would be a suitable age. 5202. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it would serve any good purpose if the University granted degrees on examination without any residence, as is the practice of the London University ?—Tes, I think it would serve some good purpose. Tou are not asking me whether I think that to be the better system or not under the circumstances of the colony ? 5203. Under the circumstances of the colony which is the better system ?—My own opinion is, that for a degree real residence should be required. It might be quite possible to combine with that some certificate of literary competency without any such requirement. 5204. Did I understand you to say you thought the best system for the circumstances of the colony would be to limit tho operations of the University to one place, where it should also have teaching functions ? —To limit its teaching functions to one place. 5205. What relations would it have with other places if it were to be a teaching body in one place ? —lt might be the examining body all over. It might be the recognized examining body for all the secondary education in the colony, and thereby retain the direction of that secondary education. 5206. While at the same time it had special teaching powers in one place ?—Tes. The English Universities now do that to a considerable extent. Of course their teaching is confined to one place, but at the same time they are now very largely performing the function of examining the secondary schools. 5207. Do you think that if the management of the University interests of all parts of the colony were intrusted to one local college, which it would be if that were made the University, it wouldjgive satisfactory results ?—No ; not that any one local body should have the control. 5208. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the residence, which in your view should alone count towards the obtaining of a degree, should be in this one place where the University would carry on the work of teaching ? —I think so, under the circumstances of the colony ; because Ido not think there would be anything like sufficient numbers in the different centres to make that residence give anything like a University life. But, in expressing that opinion, I wish it to be understood that it is entirely dependent on what I commenced with stating—that I do not feel in a position to give a competent idea as to what the numbers would be. 5209. Dr. Hector.] What is the smallest number of undergraduates which if congregated together would give a sufficient basis for what you term University life, as apart from the instruction ?—I should think not less than forty or fifty. 5210. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Supposing half that number of undergraduates were collected together, and with them were associated perhaps twice their number of students who were not pursuing the regular curriculum of the college, but attending certain classes at their own choice, do you think that would be of anything like the same value as regards the vitality of the place ? —lf it could bo so arranged that this additional number felt themselves to belong to a corporate body, and were not merely voluntary attendants, it might. They must feel themselves sufficiently members of the University to mix with the others. If they were simply persons occupied, say, iv business in a town, and just came to their class of an evening for an hour, aud went away, and had nothing else to do with the undergraduates, I do not think that arrangement would mend matters much. 5211. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it a good plan to mix matriculated and unmatriculated students in the same course of instruction —I mean, the students who are completely under discipline, and students who are independent of discipline and control ? —I should look upon it as rather a necessary evil where it was done. It might be better to do that than to have very small classes ; but Ido not think the mixture is a good thing in itself. 5212. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I should like to know whether in your previous answers you have had in your mind the model of a college in which actual residence is required, and where there is accommodation for the alumni to reside?—lt has been in my mind, but not as the exclusive idea. I had rather in my mind the distinction between men who were devoting their whole time to University studies, and others who were engaged in other work during the day, and with whom the University classes were simply an incident. 5213. Dr. Hector.] Tou mean your answers would still apply to colleges where no residence was required ? —Certainly. I take it that wherever there was a college there would be residence, in some shape or another, amongst a considerable number of the students attending. 5214. Are you talking of residence within college bounds?—" Yes; in some shape or another. I mean to say, that wherever there was such a college there would be a number of the students who were not residents in the town otherwise than as attending the college, and who would require to reside somewhere with the special view to that attendance; and if they did so reside, they would probably be congregated together somewhere or other, and under discipline. 5215. But you had not in view a college the students of which were resident within that college ? —No, because it did not seem to me a necessary part of the scheme. 5210. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Do you think there should be any limit of age with respect to admission into a University ?—I presume that admission into the University would entitle the student, after a certain number of years, to a degree. As a general rule, if a youth matriculates, he can take his degree in two or three years' time. Under those circumstances I should say, decidedly. 5217. Dr. Hector.] Supposing it were contemplated that Wellington College should undertake what may be called the college duties alone, as distinct from those of the grammar school, and thatother provision were made for the grammar school, how far would the present arrangements and the staff" of the college be available for carrying undergraduates forward to degrees? —I think the present staff —at least, the incoming staff —would be thoroughly able to undertake that if they had not the other at the same time. 34— H. 1.

Mr. K. Wilson,

April 22,1879.

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266

Mr. K. Wilson.

5218. What would be the probable loss in income to the institution by dropping the grammarschool branch?— The immediate result would be, that it would lose nine-tenths of the boys and the fees. 5219. What forms would still be retained ? What number of the average students, in other words, could pass the entrance examination ?—Of our present number, I should say about ten. 5220. And could you do with any reduction of the staff if the institution were for purely college work ? —_. o, I do not think so. 5221. Would you require any additions to it —to be on a par with other places, I mean ?—I should say we should. 5222. Then the expense of the management of the College would be increased? —Yes. 5223. And the income would be diminished very considerably ? —Yes. 5221. Would the maintenance of the grammar school, apart from the college, be materially less expensive than at present?—l do not think so. 5225. Is there any unsuitability in the present site of the College for a grammar school? —No, I do not thiuk there is. 5226. Have you heard that alleged as a reason for boys not being sent to the school ? —Yes. 5227. You do not consider that has had anything to do, materially, with the falling-off in the number of students ? —No, Ido not think so. It might have accounted for their not coming, but Ido not think it could have accounted for their leaving. 5228. From your knowledge of the City of AVellington, and its shape, &c, do you think two grammar schools would be more convenient than one central one —two grammar schools placed at the extreme parts of the town ? —I do not think so. I do not see any valid objection on the ground of distance from any part of the town with regard to the present building. 5229. But if that building and site were adopted for college purposes, and a new grammar school provided, do you think it would be better to have two grammar schools ?—No. 5230. Is there any provision contemplated for teaching girls in connection with the high school ?— Yes; classes are to be held two hours a day each day for higher girls' work. 5231. To be conducted by the same masters? —Yes, at present. 5232. And in the same building?— Yes. 5233. Bey. W. J. Habens.] At what hours ? —Eroin eleven to one. 5234 Dr. Hector.] What is your view of what should be taught at these classes ? —I think mathematics should be taught —of course beginning with very elementary mathematics —Latin, French, German, and English literature and language, presupposing an elementary knowledge of English grammar. I think those should be the main subjects. 5235. What are the fees to be ? —Nine guineas a year. 5236. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Will the sole attention of the teachers be devoted to the girls during the time they are there ? —Yes. 5237. Dr. Hector.] Is the class to be conducted in a separate part of the building from the boys' school ?—Yes. 5238. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you expect that the girls will do higher work than the boys are doing ? —No. 5239. And do you think they are likely to do as well as the boys in less time ? If the boys want five hours a day, do you think the girls can do w*ith two hours ?—I think they could probably do with less time devoted to actual teaching than the boys ; but I do not think that difference is fairly represented as in the ratio of two to five. 52-10. Dr. Hector.] I suppose the reason is, you cannot get any more time with the present resources of the College ? —Yes. 5211. The Chairman.] Is there any provision made by the State for giving secondary education to girls in Wellington ?—No, none at all. A grant of land was given to the governors of the College for that purpose last year ; it has not been utilized yet. 5242. Do you think that if, a girls' high school were established in Wellington a fair number of pupils would attend ?—I think so.

April 22, 1879.

Wednesday, 23ed Aphid, 1579. PfiESE-TT : Dr. Hector in the chair. Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Eev. W. E. Mulgan. Hon. C. J. PuakazT-T, M.L.C, was examined. 5243. Dr. Hector.] You are Chairman of the Board of Education for the Wellington District ? — I am. 5244. Can you tell the Commission what has been done towards the establishment of a normal training institution in Wellington?— Nothing has been done yet. There is a vote of £1,000, which is quite inadequate for the purpose, and we scarcely know what to do with it. In the first place, there is a site to be procured, and then there is the building itself. We have not sufficient funds for these purposes. We quite appreciate the necessity for a normal school, and the value of such an institution. Our great drawback here is the want of properly-trained teachers ; we are obliged to take whoever present themselves. 5245. Is the £1,000 you mentioned tho total annual vote, or is it only a moiety of that vote ? —lt is the total annual vote for our district. Ido not know whether or not a similar amount was voted for Wanganui. The vote may have been divided. 521(5. Has the Board of Education considered any plan upon which it would proceed towards the establishment of a normal school if it were provided with sufficient funds for the purpose? —Yes. If we were provided with funds, and had a site for the school, we should take steps immediately, because we are alive to the great necessity for such an institution.

Mr. C. Pharazyn.

April 23,1879.

H.—l.

5247. What were the plans contemplated ?—The usual plans for a normal school—to train teachers, and have a proper staff of instructors in the various branches. 5218. Was it intended to utilize one of the existing primary schools in order to supply the training class ?—No ; we had no intention of that kind. 5249. How was it proposed to get the material ?—We would have a separate establishment for them—that is, we would take our teachers out of the primary schools. We are trying the experiment in a small way, and have voted a salary of £100 for one year to Mrs. Holmes, who teaches drawing at her own rooms. We wish to see how the plan will succeed in regard to this one branch, drawing being one of the qualifications of a teacher. 5250. How is it proposed that the teachers should be taught to teach ? They would require pupils to exercise on. —By proper professors. That i. the only way, and it is a very expensive process. 525.1. Perhaps you hardly understand the object of the question. To teach how to teach, there must be children to be taught. How is that to be provided ? In other places the normal school is in connection with a practising school—one of tho primary schools is used as a practising school. —Wo have not gone so far into the matter as that yet. 5252. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How is the Board of Education expending the £1,000, the moiety of a year's vote ?—We have not expended it, the difficulty being that, according to our ideas, it is not sufficient for practical purposes —that is, for acquiring a site and erecting a building. 5253. Are you receiving periodical instalments of the vote ?—No. 5254. Dr. Hector.] Is Mrs. Holmes not paid out of the voto ? —She has not been paid anything yet. 5255. Do you propose to pay her out of the vote ?—Unless we can take the money out of the general fund. We have not decided that question yet. I suppose the process would be to pay her out of the £1,000 vote. We have not applied for any of that vote yet, because we are not sure that we can expend it. 5256. Have any steps been taken towards establishing a school of art in Wellington for pupils, apart from the normal school ?—Mrs. Holmes opened classes of that character ; but they were not well attended, and did not succeed. That is the only attempt of the kind that has been made that I am aware of. 5257. Has tho Board of Education auy scholarships at its control that are devoted to secondary education?—l do not know that we have. 5258. Bey. W. J Habens.] Are you not aware that the Government allows eighteenpence for each child in average attendance, to be expended by the Board in scholarships? —Yes. 5259. Do you remember any payment being made by the Board for scholarships in any way since you have been Chairman ? —No. Mr. David Peat was examined. 5260. Dr. Hector.] Tou are a resident of Wanganui ? —Yes. 5261. How long have you resided there ? —Tweuty-one years. 5262. Are you acquainted with certain educational reserves there held under trust by the Church of England?— Yes ; I am acquainted with a reserve called the Industrial School Reserve. 5263. Have you ever had any official relations with this reserve ? —No. 5264. What opportunity have you had of acquainting yourself with the application of the funds? —I have taken particular notice of how the estate has been managed during the twenty-one years of my residence in Wanganui. 5265. Are you acquainted with the conditions of the trust ?—I have read the grant. 5266. Iv your opinion are the conditions of the grant fully carried out at the present time ? —No, not at all. 5267. In what respect do they fail generally ? —My reading of the grant is, that the school should be open to children of both races aud of both sexes; and it is only open to one-fourth of the whole people—that is, that only the male children of white people are admitted into the school; they will not take females or the children of any but Europeans. 5268. When you say that that is the reading of the grant, have you any reason to believe that it is the generally-accepted readiug of the grant ? —lt is tho generally-accepted reading of the grant in our district. 5269. Has there been any legal expression of opinion on the subject? —I do not know anything about that. 5270. Have you heard it urged that that is not the reading of the grant ? —No. 5271. Then you think that the accepted provisions of the grant are not given effect to ? —They are not given effect to ; and the estate itself is badly managed —it does not produce the income which it ought. 5272. Do you know the extent of the estate ? —Two hundred and fifty acres, I think. 5273. Do you know the position of it ?—lt forms part of the town of Wanganui. 5274. In what state is it at the present time ? —lt is let in small blocks, and some large blocks are used generally for paddocks. There are a few buildings on it; but in its present state it is detrimental to the interests of the town —the town is extending the other wray on account of that being shut up. 5275. Is its position such that it would be favourable for occupation in town sections ?—Yes. 5276. In your opinion it might bring in a much larger revenue than it does at present?— Much larger. 5277. What is the value of quarter-acre sections contiguous to this reserve ?—Certain portions would have different values. The Avenue property —part of which fronts the main street —is much more valuable than the land at the back ; but sections on the Avenue, immediately opposite this reserve, are selling at about £450 a quarter-acre. 5278. What would that be considered as equal to in annual value ?—lt would be worth about £30 per annum per quarter-acre,

Mr. C. Pharazyn. April 23, 1879.

Mr. D. Peat. April 23,1879.

267

268

H.—l

5279. And how far would that value apply to the whole 250 acres ?—The value of the reserve would not be near that amount. 5280. Could you give us an idea of the probable annual value that could be derived from the whole of the 250 acres—not hurrying it into the market at once, but taking it gradually, as a prudent person would deal with an estate of that kind? —About £12 an acre rent, all over, on building lease. 5281. That would make about £3,000 a year income ?—Yes. 5282. You do not know* the present income? —JSTo. 5283. Are you aware that in 1869 a Commission appointed by the Legislature made a recommendation to the following effect: —" Looking at the magnitude of the grant, and the loss which the people of the place have suffered by the diversion of the land from its original purpose, the Commissioners recommend that the land should, whenever practicable, be laid out again, and rendered available for town purposes, and that the annual proceeds should be so appropriated as to give the inhabitants of every denomination and every class a fair share in the benefits accruing from the grant " ? —Yes. 5281. Has any action been taken to your knowledge in consequence of that recommendation?— None whatever. 5285. What provision is there for giving instruction to the children in Wanganui of a class similar to that intended by the Industrial School Trust ? Independent of the Industrial School, is there any other school to which they can be sent to receive instruction ? —There is a district high school. 5286. How is that endowed ? —lt is managed by the Board of Education. 5287. What is the attendance ? —The attendance of boys and girls is estimated at about 500. 5288. How many of these would be upper-form pupils ? —I do not know. 5289. But the majority would be primary-school children ? —Yes. 5290. Then, is there a fair opportunity provided at the present time for giving high-school education in Wanganui ? —There is now, with this high school established ; but hitherto there has not been. The high school has only been opened within the last six or eight weeks, with a new staff of masters. There has been no time to tell the results of it yet. 5291. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you say whether any steps have been taken to establish a high school in Wanganui ?—Yes, there have been steps taken. 5292. Do you know at what stage the promoters have arrived ?—No, I could not say. 5293. There is no high school in operation ? —No ; but a grant of land has, I believe, been given for the purpose. 5291. Dr. Hector.] If the Industrial School Trust were carried out in the manner in which you think it should be, would it be of material benefit to the general population of Wanganui ? —There is no doubt about it. 5295. Not merely to those who belong to one denomination ? —There are now, and have been at all times, children of several denominations attending. My children have attended the school, and Ido not belong to that denomination. I had two girls attending the school, and I got orders to take them away after they had been there for eighteen months. At that time there was no district high school to which they could be sent. I remonstrated upon the injustice that w ras done to me in being thus compelled to send my children away for their education —that was at Christmas last—and the master said it was the order of the Bishop. 5296. What was the order of the Bishop?— That girls should not be taken any longer at the school. I called on the Bishop and remonstrated strongly with him. He said he could not help it; that he thought it better to keep the boys and girls separate, and could not admit girls any longer. 5297. There was no provision made out of the trust for a separate girls' school ? —No. 5298. Was any reason alleged for not taking girls, such as insufficiency of funds? —No ; the only reason given was, that it was better to keep the boys and girls separate. 5299. But I understand that they have done away with the girls' branch of the school altogether ? —There are no girls admitted at all: they refused them. 5300. That is not keeping them separate, but only making the school a boys' school: —Yes. 5301. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that if the funds arising from this estate were devoted to the establishment of a high school, or secondary school, for boys and girls, the objects contemplated by the trust would be thereby properly attended to ?—My interpretation of the grant is, that it was for an industrial school, instead of a high school. 5302. Dr. Hector.] How would you define an industrial school in that sense ?—A school for the poorer people of the district, and for the poor classes. 5303. And for giving primary education ? —Yes. 5301. Since primary education has been provided for otherwise free of cost, if it were proposed to alter the destination of this endowment do you think it w*ould still be necessary to apply it to an industrial school ? —No. 5305. You said your boys had attended ? —Only one boy. 5306. And has he made satisfactory progress ? —He did for a long time. 5307. As a parent are you satisfied with the working of the school? —I was not satisfied after Mr. Godwin left. My children did no good all the time they were with the present teacher. They were not very long with him. I was well satisfied while they were under Mr. Godwin's care. 5308. Have you been able to complete your boy's education there ?—No; I sent him to Nelson. 5309. Are you aware whether it is a general practice to send boys away from the district to complete their schooling ? —lf parents wish their children to be pretty well advanced they have to send them away. 5310. Your case is not singular ?—No; there have been a great many similar cases, 5311. Showing there is practically a want in the district ? —Yes. 5312. I observe mention made of a sum having been received by the trustees in compensation for land taken for the railway. Are you acquainted with the piece that was taken ? —Yes. 5313. Do you know the extent of it ? —I do not know the extent of it, but I know they got far too little money for it —at least about one-third of what they ought to have got. I think they received £450.

Mr. D. Peat,

April 23,1879.

269

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5314. Tou mean £450 would be a third of what, from your knowledge of the place, you think was its value ? —Tes. 5315. I see that Mr. Anson received compensation for buildings and for resigning a lease ?—I know his place very well. 5316. Are you sufficiently acquainted with, the circumstances to offer an opinion as to whether £225 was a fair amount ? —I do not think it was too high, considering the time his lease had to run. They gained that by increased rental. At one time it was notorious that if you got a lease from the Industrial School you could get £200, £300, or £500, according to the state of it, directly after it was made. 5317. That was a profit ?—Tes ; a bonus on the lease. 5318. How long ago was that?—ln Major Durie's time. 5319. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How much of this estate is within the boundaries of the town proper? —The original boundary of the town included the whole of this land, and it was cut up in quarter-acres by the New Zealand Company. After this land was given to the Church, tho inhabitants petitioned to curtail the extent of the town, and the portion of land opposite the Industrial School Estate was then laid^off in suburban allotments. It is all now in the town proper, as the town exists. 5320. Has there been an authoritative change of the town boundaries ? —No, I do not think so. 5321. Do you know whether the people of Wanganui generally are satisfied with the present condition of things with regard to this trust ? —No, they are not; they are very dissatisfied. 5322. "Will you state on what grounds the dissatisfaction is based ? —They say the trust is not applied to the purposes for which it was intended, and it has always been mismanaged. The estate has not produced what it ought to have produced, and at present the school is only for a certain class —the wealthy'class —and there are only a few —about twenty, I think —attending it. If the estate were well managed, it might be put to far better use. 5323. Dr. Hector.] Tou say there are about twenty attending ?—I have been told that by the scholars themselves—about twenty this present quarter. 5324. Tou do not know what the average attendance last year was ?—lt was much higher. The numbers are decreasing daily. 5325. We have a return which states that it was thirty-six. Would that be about the number?— Tes, up to the end of last year ; because at the beginning of last year there were about fifty, and the numbers decreased after Mr. Godwin left. lam speaking of the present quarter from what the boys tell mo. I think there were about twenty-five last quarter. The Eight Eev. O. Hadfield, Bishop of Wellington, was examined. 5326. Dr. Hector.] Tou are Bishop of the Diocese of Wellington ? —Tes. 5327. In that capacity you hold some official position in connection with educational reserves held by the Church of England ?—Not necessarily in that capacity. lam one of the trustees appointed by authority of the General Synod. 5328. In relation to the other trustees what is your position ? —-We are all on the same footing, except with regard to the Otaki School, which is conveyed to the Church Missionary Society, and is not necessarily under the Synod. 5329. But that is also under your charge ? —I was appointed trustee of that reserve ; the others I only hold as trustee under the authority of the General Synod. 5330. In your position as trustee are you well acquainted with all the circumstances of the trusts and their management ?—Tes, I think I am. 5331. The first trust the Commission would wish some information about is the estate at AVanganui, granted originally for the purpose of an industrial school, and known generally as the Industrial School Grant? —The industrial element was to form a part of it. 5332. The religious, industrial, and English education of both races ? —Tes. 5333. There have been previous inquiries into the state of that endowment and its management ?— Tes, by the Legislative Council. 5334. Have you anything to add to, or any comment to make upon, the evidence you gave on previous occasions, so that we might start from that point? —I think not. 5335. Then all that is necessary is to ascertain the present position of the trust. Tou have made a return to the Commission of the present state of the accounts of the trust ?—Tes. 5336. It is signed by Mr. Churton, the agent ?—Tes. 5337. Tou are satisfied that it is a correct statement of accounts?—Tes. I may say that the accounts of all these school trusts, properly audited, were furnished to the Government last year. 5338. I notice in the accounts certain sums received for compensation for a portion of land taken for railway purposes. How has that money been dealt with?—lt has been lent for the present at interest to the estate for the purpose of building a school; but it is only lent on interest until we see a good opportunity of investing it in land, as we are bound as trustees to do. There was no need for any additional land, and we thought we could best employ the money for the present just as a loan at interest. 5339. In the balance-sheet for the year, then, there would have been sufficient funds for meeting the year's liabilities without that money? —Tes. Within the last eighteen months old leases have fallen iv, and the land has now been let at a much higher rate ; so that we shall have funds enough to pay off this debt within a year or two, and allow that money to be free for investment in land. That is what we have agreed upon. 5340. Then is there any extraordinary payment on the opposite side of the account peculiar to the year? Does not that include the payment for the building ? —The building cost about £1,000. It is now completed and paid for. 5341. So that the position of that compensation-money is, that it has been left for the purpose of being employed in building ? —Tes ; building on the estate. 5342. And the estate forms security for that money ? —Quite so.

Mr. D. Peat,

April 23, 1879,

Bishop Hadfield.

April 23, 1879.

H.—l.

270

5343. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Has the estate auy accumulated funds ? —N o. We hope we shall have money from the recent leases to pay off the debt. 5344. Dr. Hector.] How was the amount which was received for compensation determined ?—I can hardly say. It was left to our agent to agree witli the Government valuator. 5345. "Was it considered an adequate value for the laud parted with?— The trustees were rather blamed for not having attempted to get more out of the Government for it; but we left it to Mr. Churton to use his judgment, and to get what was supposed to be about the value of it. I may say that Mr. George Hunter and Mr. Baunatyne are tho two other trustees; and we trust very much, in business matters, to Mr. Hunter's opinion. 5346. You are aware that there was a Commission appointed ia ISG9 which reported on this and other educational endowments ? —Yes. 5347. And that they reported to the followiug effect: —" Looking at the magnitude of the grant, and the loss which the people of the place have suffered by the diversion of the laud from its original purpose, the Commissioners recommend that the land should, whenever practicable, be laid out again, and rendered available for town purposes, and that the annual proceeds should be so appropriated as to give the inhabitants of every denomination and every class afair share in the benefits accruing from the grant "? Has anything evert been done towards giving effect to that recommendation?— Certainly not. I did not give evidence on that point, and Ido not know who gave evidence from which the Commission derived that opinion. I gave no evidence about it, and Ido not know where they picked up their information. The subject was brought forward by Sir Julius Vogel in the House of ltepresentatives, and there was a debate upon it which lasted five or six hours —from half-past seven until one o'clock in the morning; and the decision arrived at—there being a large majority against the Government of the day —was that the estate was being used precisely for the purpose for which it was given, and that it ought not to be disturbed. The debate appears in Hansard. 5348. Do you think that the present application of the funds arising from this esf ate is in strict accordance with the purposes for which the grant was made? —I have not the slightest doubt of it —with the exception of the industrial element; but the truth is, nobody cares for that. We tried to establish it at considerable expense, but no parents cared to have their boy 3 taught any manual industries. 5349. Could you give us the details of what was done towards it, so that we may form some opinion as to what the Industrial School is ? —I am afraid I cannot. It was before I was a trustee, and when the institution was under the charge of the Eev. Mr. Nicholls. There were out-of-door pursuits, and those connected with carpentering and other occupations. But it was found impossible to get either the Maoris or the English people to care about the industrial instruction, and, as it was an expensive part of the school, it was dropped. At present, with the exception of that one thing, Ido not think there is any part of the trust that is not complied with. 5350. What do you understand by an industrial school? What construction would you put upon that phrase ?—I do not know. That would be for a Court of law to determine. I suppose what we did at Otaki: We employed the boys for two or three hours in the afternoon in raising crops, and we taught them to plough and so forth. But the day has gone by for that iv New Zealand ; it is no longer a part of education. It was intended for the Maori population. When the subject was discussed in the Legislature it was considered that it was an obsolete thing, and ought uot to be revived. With regard to the report of the Commissioners, to which you have referred, I cannot conceive on what ground they came to their decisions. Ido not think they could havo seen the grant, or, at any rate, to have understood its tenor. 5351. Is tho estate administered in such a way as to obtain the full benefit of the endowment at the present time?—l think so. Mr. Churton, who has been our agent for some years, is one of the best business men in Wanganui, as is also Mr. Freeman Jackson, who advises with him. Those gentlemen are about the two best men who could give us advice. 5352. Has the existence of this grant prevented tho development of the town in the direction in which the land lies ? —I am decidedly of opinion that it has not. 5353. Are those parts which are let just now, let in the same way as if they were town sections ?— No, I think not. They are treated more as suburban lands, and let in sections of three or four acres, four or five acres, twenty or thirty acres, and so on. 5354. If the land were cut up and dealt with in the same manner as town lands, do you think it would bring in a larger revenue ? Have the trustees made any inquiries to satisfy themselves on that point? —Yes ; I think they have. The land was let by auction recently, and the highest price was obtained for it. There is so much vacant and unoccupied land nearer the centre of the town that I cannot for a moment suppose it would be wanted. There is an immense quantity of land on the righthand side of the Avenue as you go up. 5355. Bey. W. J, Habens.] Is there any difference between the purposes to which you understand this estate was intended to be devoted, and the purposes to which the estate at Otaki was intended to be devoted ? Is there any such difference in the terms of the grants as to indicate a different intention as to the use ? —I hardly think so—with this exception, that the Otaki estate was granted to the Church Missionary Society more especially for the benefit of the Natives. It was land almost given by the Natives themselves, and intended more especially for the benefit of the Natives than the other estate. The Otaki land was really given by the Natives, aud backed by Crown grant to the society. I think that either, according to the terms of the grant, might be used for somewhat the same purposes. One was granted specially, primarily, for the benefit of the Natives ; the other was primarily, perhaps, for the benefit of the white people ; though the grants include both. I say this, understanding you ask me what I believe to have been the original intention. 5356. Do you think any weight ought to be attached to the description given in the grant, of the persons for whose benefit the trust was intended, as poor aud destitute persons ? —I do not know what is meant by that; I can hardly say why that was put in. 5357. Is the estate being administered now for the benefit of the poorer class in Wanganui, or for the benefit of a class above them?— The children who attend the school at preseut have to pay from £6 to £7 a year.

Bishop Eadfield.

April 23, 1879

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5358. Dr. Hector.] Are there any pupils taken who do not pay fees ? —No. 1 5359. What is the class of instruction that is given in the school —I mean as compared with the course in a primary school?—A good many of the pupils have during the last few* years passed the senior Civil Service examination. Unfortunately we had rather an eccentric schoolmaster until recently ; and in the return they are put down as attending Mr. Godwin's school: so that in the published report it does not appear that they belonged to this school. 5360. That gives the upper range of the school. How low are the pupils ? —"We do not refuse any ; we have taken them very young. 5361. To begin their education ? —Tes; we have not refused them coming in that way. 53G2. The only thing being that they pay the fees? —'Yes ; we could not have carried it on without doing so. I want to raise it to a much higher class of school if I can. 5363. Have children of both sexes been taken hitherto ? —No; not girls. We had an eccentric schoolmaster, as I havo just said, who did admit two or three girls without my leave or knowledge. When I heard of it, I told the new master that we could not admit girls —it was destructive to the order of the school. 5364. Would the funds not admit of having the school in duplicate—of having a second branch of the school for girls ? —Certainly not. 5365. Is the time of the masters fully occupied with the number of pupils ? —Tes; we have two masters, and their time is fully occupied. 5366. I find that the average number of pupils last year was thirty-six—twenty-two senior and fourteen junior ? —Tes. 5367. Has that been the number in previous years ? —I think it has been higher in previous yeai*s. 5368. Then there has been a falling-off in the school ? —I do not care to say more than that the master we had for about twelve months —I did not know all the particulars about him —was eccentric, and that the school fell off without one's knowing much about it. 5369. Within what period?—l dare say there was a certain amount of dissatisfaction with the school for six or eight months. 5370. At what date? —He left, I think, in March or April last year. Previous to that there was dissatisfaction for some months. 5371. Do you think the school will recover its numbers under the new arrangement ? —I think it will; I hope so. There is a Government school —a high school—established on part of this land, which we leased for a nominal rent; and how far that will affect our school lam unable to say. 5372. How far does your school, as at present managed, supply the place of a high school for Wanganui ? —lt did supply that place, in a great measure, for a long time ; for we really made no religious distinctions, so anxious were we, feeling the absence of proper schools, to make it available for the community. There were a few verses of Holy Scripture and a short prayer read at the beginning of school, which those of a different denomination wrere not compelled to join in ; and Eoman Catholics, Presbyterians, and others attended the school. 5373. As a matter of fact, the school was attended by children of all denominations ?—Tes ; but possibly we would now be inclined to restrict it, and make it more of a Church school, if the community were well supplied with the high school and other schools. 5374. What kind of buildings have been erected out of the trust funds ?—We had, till recently, very bad buildings. There is a muster's house, which is separate, built some years ago. There is now one large school-room, with a large class-room and a lobby. It has only been completed about two or three months, and cost about £1,000. The contract price was £950. It is a handsome, commodious building. 5375. How many pupils would that accommodate ? —The room, I think, is about forty-five or fifty feet long. It would accommodate, I dare say, seventy or eighty boys easily—perhaps more. 5376. Is there any subdivision, or more than one class-room ?—There is only one class-room, besides the large room. It is a very good building. 5377. What is the present number of masters ? —Two—Mr. Sanders and Mr. Pord. 5378. How do they manage, only having one teaching-room ? Do they not teach simultaneously ? -—The room is quite large enough at present to enable them to teach simultaneously. Ido not think they use the class-room. When I left Wanganui they had only been in the building about a month. The old building used for many years was a very bad one, but we had no funds to procure a better one. 5379. "Where is the school situated in relation to the most populous part of Wanganui?—lt is just at the end of the Avenue, quite contiguous to the town. 5380. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you aware of the existence at any time of any public opinion in Wanganui adverse to the management of the institution? —I am aware that there has been a very strong feeling adverse to it,; but lam wholly unable to account for it, except on the assumption that those who entertained it had never seen the grant, and did not know its tenor. I think it arose from the fact that they did not know that it was a Church of England endowment. There was also, I believe, a feeling that there ought to have been some local trustees appointed. 5381. Dr. Hector.] Do you think any real advantage would arise from the trustees being local persons ? —Certainly not. As far as my experience goes I think it is more important to have a matter of business brought before us by the intelligent agent on tiie spot for the consideration of all the trustees, who are resident in Wellington, and who can meet to consider it, than to have the trustees divided, when there is a difficulty in getting a meeting, or to have trustees who would be liable to have their judgment biassed by local influences or local pressure. I am strongly of opinion that to have a good agent is by far the best plan. That may be a private opinion of my own, but I entertain it very strongly. 5382. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tho public feeling to which reference has been made was not, so far as you are aware, directed against the action of the trustees in devoting the income to the purposes of a grammar school ?—I never heard that objected to at all.

Bishop Hadjield.

April 23, 1879.

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1. 5383. Are there any Maori boys attending the school ? —No, not now; but they would be admitted like others if they applied. There were formerly some, but there are hardly any now in any of the schools. 5384. How is "Wanganui supplied at the present time with institutions for secondary education ? —I do not know that lam competent to give an opinion. I have not been there very much. 5385. With reference to the Te Aute estate, you gave very full information ou a recent occasion. Have you anything further to add to that ?—No, I think not. 5386. Is the school at the present time in a satisfactory state ?—Tes. I heard recently from the Eev. Mr. Williams, in whom I have great confidence, that it is in a fairly satisfactory state. I indorse the statement furnished by Mr. Williams on the subject. 5387. Dr. Hector.] There is an estate called the Porirua estate, as to which you gave evidence in 1875 ?—Tes. 5388. Have you any statement of the present condition of that estate ?—We are really doing nothing at present, but allowing the funds to accumulate. We have not funds enough. The income is only about £70 a year, and we have not enough to undertake any educational work there at present. Seventy pounds a year is the rental, and we have about £1,570 invested, bearing interest. 5389. I observe that in your previous evidence you stated you had a balance in hand amounting to more than £2,000? —Tes. That is available for education there, but not all belonging to the trust. 5390. And that that sum might be devoted to the establishment of a school. And then you go on to state that there is no necessity in your opinion for a Native school there, as there is one afc Otaki, and that " the grant of land was for the whole diocese, and for a higher class of education. The intention was to make it like St. John's College, near Auckland." That was in 1875. Has anything been done towards carrying that out ? —Nothing has been done ; we have not funds enough. 5391. Are you precluded from merging these funds with funds from other similar trusts ? —I am afraid so. 5392. The estate is for the whole diocese ?—Tes ; it was granted for the whole diocese. We have three or four of these estates, and I think it is a pity that the grants do not admit of being combined, so as to enable the trustees to throw all the funds into one establishment. Now that we have railway communication and other advantages, we might establish one institution. That would answer every purpose. At present the funds from these separate estates are not sufficient to enable us to do anything on the spot at any one place. 5393. Have the trustees discussed such a scheme ?—Not very formally. It has been mentioned on the Board that it would be advisable to proceed in that direction; but without an Act of the Legislature we could do nothing. 5394. If such a scheme were given effect to, would the trustees devote the whole of the funds to the maintenance of one school ? —Tes ; I think so. 5395. Where would it be situated ? —Perhaps not necessarily upon the estate. That is what we should have liked. I was told by Mr. Travers that according to the terms of the trust we could not employ the money except upon the actual estate it was raised upon. 5390. Supposing all these difficulties were removed by legislation ?—Then we might fix upon a central point somewhere. 5397. AVhat would be the nature of the school that would be established? —I hardly know, not having yet considered it with the other trustees. 5398. How many schools connected with these estates are in existence at the present time ?—There is the Wanganui School, and the Te Aute School, and also the Otaki School —but that is a different kind of trust. 5399. There are estates mentioned as the Wairarapa School estates. Are they producing any rental ? —One is producing about £35 a year, and the other £30 a year at present. They were simply rough, uncultivated, and unfenced lands, let on short leases, with covenant to clear and fence; from which very little money can be obtained. 5400. There is nothing being done with that money ?—No ;it is accumulating. 5401. The estate at Otaki brings in £200 a year ?—Tes. 5402. Is that applied to any purpose?— There is the schoolmaster's salary of £150; and the balance of £50, or nearly all of it, is generally expended on necessary items. There is a little money in hand, but not much. 5403. What class of pupils are taught there ? —Only Maoris, and a few half-castes. 5404. What is the limit of age ? —We take pupils up to about fourteen or fifteen years of age. 5405. And what are they taught ? —They are taught English, writing, arithmetic, and geography. The schoolmaster there was previously in charge of a Grovernment school. 5406. Does he receive any assistance from the Grovernment grant?—-No ; he only gets the £150 from us. But the institution is superintended by the Eev. Mr. Mc William, who resides at Otaki. 5407. Do any white children attend the school ? —A few. 5408. Is that provided for in the trust ? —No. We make them pay £5 a year, or something, towards the school. The institution is not in so flourishing a state as it used to be in ; but it is owing to the state of the Maori mind. All the Grovernment Maori schools up the Wanganui Eiver are now closed. 5409. To return to the scheme you said had been talked about: Tou have mentioned the Wanganui estate, the Te Aute estate, the Porirua and Wairarapa estates, and the Otaki property. They constitute all the different school trusts you havo under your charge ? —Tes. 5410. Was it proposed that the funds arising from these should be combined in one institution ? —We had no regular scheme, because we did not know how we could arrive at the desired result. I cannot say that we have thoroughly discussed the matter. It has been in my own mind, and I have spoken of it occasionally. If there was a little relaxation of the absolute terms of the grant—if we were empowered to use the funds at our discretion for the same objects, without their having to be expended on the same spot —we might then devise a scheme and turn the estates to some account. But I confess

Bishop Eadfield.

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we havo not gone fully into the subject, because of the legal difficulty. I think it is highly advisable ; and that unless it is done, the estates will lio by a long time without being turned to account. I exclude Te Aute estate from this scheme. 5411. "Would there be any advantage in having power to convert these estates into cash, to be held in trust ? . Tou say some of these reserves are in remote places—rough country for which nothing can be got as leasehold ? —I do not quite mean that. I meant to say that where you havo simply a grant of land which is unfenced and in a rough state, unless you have some capital to work the land it can be turned to very little account, and only let on short leases. But the lands will rise in value. There is one estate near Masterton that will be valuable by-and-by, I believe ; but at present it is let at a very low rental. 5412. But fo;* present use these estates might be sold and converted into money, and the money funded. They might sell as waste lands ? —I have not thought of that. 5413. Tou are aware that that is the way in which certain educational reserves have been dealt with in Canterbury and Otago ? —I have not looked into that subject. 5414. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you state any probable reason for the limiting of the powers of the trustees to the expending of the money on the particular estates ? —I hardly think it was contemplated. 5415. Dr. Hector.] "What is the accumulated fund from all these various estates at the present time ? —On 30th June, 1878, when the accounts were last audited, the balances in hand were : Papawai and Kaikokirikiri, £202 14s. lOd.; Porirua, £1,571 lis. 9d.; Otaki, at the present date, £275 4s. 7d. Te Aute and "Wanganui have no funds in hand. 5416. I observe mention made of a reserve set apart, not for primary education, but described as a school site in Wellington, containing thirty-eight perches. There is no information opposite it ?—lt is in Sydney Street, and is now, as a temporary arrangement, let to the Education Board. It was in our hands until the passing of the last Education Act took these matters out of our control in a great measure. Ido not know whether we are actiug quite legally or not; but it is a merely verbal agreement, made for the convenience of the public, and terminable at six months' notice. 5417. Is any rent received ? —No; they merely insure the building and keep it in order. 5418. What is it at present used for by the Education Board ?—As one of tho primary schools. Mr. Mowbray is the master. I dare say there is a slight irregularity in this way : It is conveyed to us for the purpose of religious instruction according to the Ohurch of England, and at present the clergyman has simply leave to go in at a fixed hour and teach his own class if he likes. In that respect the arrangement is outside the Act; but it is merely of a temporary nature, and for the convenience both of the public and the Board of Education. 5419. I understand it is quite a temporary arrangement, and can be terminated at any time ?— Tes ; just a short notice is required. 5420. That is all we have to ask you about the reserves. We would be very glad to take tho opportunity of your being here to inquire whether you havo formed any opinion as to the operations of the University of New Zealand as a means of affording higher education throughout the colony — whether in its present state it appears to you to be doing useful work, and to be adapted to the wants of the colony?— The impression I have in reference to it generally is that it is doing a good work in the colony, and that it is highly desirable that it should be worked as efficiently as possible. 5421. In your opinion do you think the present constitution of the University, which provides that there should be only one degree-granting body throughout the colony, is the most suitable ? —Most decidedly. 5422. And do you think that the functions of this University, which are at present purely examining functions, should be extended so as to include teaching powers ? Do you think there is any absolute necessity for a University to teach except through colloges ? —The difficulty in answering that question is, that the public are so scattered here. If we had a large central population I should not hesitate to say most decidedly that the University ought to teach as well. But the practical mode of applying that w*ould be the difficulty. Under present circumstances perhaps the University being merely an examining body would be the best. 5423. Tou are no doubt aware that there are strongly-equipped colleges established in Christchurch and Dunedin? —Tes. 5424. Do you think it would be desirable that such colleges should be established, say, in two other centres of population, in the North Island ?—lf tho population is large enough to supply students. 5425. Do you think it would be worth the expense ?—I should hardly think so. 5426. Take the case of Wellington : Do you think there is a desire and a sufficient number of pupils to warrant the establishment of an institution purely devoted to college teaching ?—I should say certainly not, as far as I am informed. 5427. Do you think that the affiliation of grammar schools, so as to permit of their carrying on a higher form towards the attainment of degrees —a higher form for studies that would enable pupils to pass for the degree—is a useful arrangement as a temporary plan ? —I think it is most decidedly a useful arrangement. I think it would bo most beneficial to do that. 5428. Do you see any great objection to combining the work of a grammar school and undergraduate work iv the samo institution ? —I should decidedly prefer to see them separate. Of course, I bring old-fashioned notions to bear ou the subject. Having been educated at a public school —the Charterhouse —and at Oxford, I may possibly have old prejudices; but I think the two ought to be kept separate. 5429. What amount of demand do you think would warrant tho establishment of a college, as a branch of the University, distinct from a grammar school? Would you defer the establishment of such an institution until there was a prospect of its paying?—Tes. Looking at it all round, an enormous expenditure would be required for carrying out these things ; and if they are premature I think it would be hardly advisable to undertake them. 35-H. 1.

Bishop Sadfield.

April 23, 1879.

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5430. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know any collegiate institution, or any University, that pays itway without endowments or extraneous aid?—No, I suppose not. But you would require a certain number at first to justify the expenditure. Possibly, in a grammar school, the object of many of the boys would be to reach only a certain standard, and then they would leave the school. That would imply a different kind of education from that required for boys whose parents desired that they should attain to a higher class of education, and go on with it. I think the two ought to be on different bases. If it were only intended to keep boys at school until they wero fifteen years of age, so that they might pass the Civil Service examination, or reach that standard, a special kind of teaching would be required. But if it were intended that they should become educated men, a different system would be required, and on a broader basis. 5431. Dr. Hector.] That is to say, that the bifurcation of the two systems of teaching should extend back into the secondary school even—should commence before the student went to college ?— Tes, I think so. The present system of teaching aims only at a certain standard, and not beyond, and it tends to " cram," instead of to the enlargement and education of the faculties. 5432. Have you formed any opinion as to what age should be fixed at which lads in this colony should be encouraged to commence their University course, by giving junior scholarships ? At the present time the age is fifteen :do you think that is too young ?—Tes, I think it is. I would sooner say sixteen. I think that boys, and even clever boys, are idle, and do not do their best until they are about sixteen. Many boys do not do themselves justice at all at the ago of fifteen. I should certainly sooner see the age extended another year. 5433. That, of course, would have the effect of keeping the boys longer at the grammar school?— Tes; which would be an advantage, I think. 5434. And of raising the standard at which studies would be commenced at tho colleges ? —Tes. Mr. Henet Jackson was examined. 5435. Dr. Hector.] I believe you are one of tho governors of Wellington College ? —Tes. 5436. And also honorary treasurer of the institution ? —Tes. 5437. How long have you occupied that position ? —I have held the office of treasurer almost since I was first appointed a member of the Board —I think about three years ago. 5438. And you at one time occupied the post of Chief Surveyor for the Province of Wellington ? — Tes. 5439. So that you have had facilities for knowing the nature and value of reserves which have been made for educational purposes ? —Tes. 5440. Can you inform the Commission what were the objects for which tho Wellington College was established, and the date of its establishment ?—I think I may say that the Wellington College was established on its present basis about the year 1872. Before that date it was called a grammar school, and was established on the Terrace; but, the grammar school not being thought sufficient for the purposes of the education which it was desired to give, the then Superintendent of Wellington, Sir William Pitzherbert, undertook to place on the Provincial Estimates, subject of course to the approval of the Provincial Council, a sum of some £1,000 by way of absolute grant, and a further sum of £500 per annum towards an increase of the masters' salaries —in all, about £1,500 ; and I think a partial, if not an absolute, promise was made that, subject to the sanction of the Provincial Council, the said sums of £1,000 and £500 per annum were to be continued until the reserves set aside as endowments for the College should become reproductive, and enable the College to receive an equivalent income to the donations given yearly. Up to the time of provincial abolition, about two years ago, these grants w*ere paid, and, although not acknowledged as grants, they have been paid by the General Government for the past two years by an annual vote of the Assembly. lam told, however, that probably we shall not get the money this year. If that should be the case we shall be unable to carry on the College upon its present basis. 5441. Was that subsidy from the Provincial Government secured for a certain number of years by an Act of the General Assembly ? —Tes; by " The Wellington College Vote in Aid Act, 1873," which is described as "An Act to authorize the Appropriation, for certain Purposes, of the Annual Sum of One Thousand Pounds for Pour Tears out of the Provincial Revenue of the Province of Wellington." 5442. In altering the constitution of the institution in 1872 from a grammar school to a college, what was contemplated by the change ?—That the students of the College should receive the benefit of a University education—should be able, for instance, to take the B.A. degreo at the University. 5443. How were the original endowments of the grammar school, that were taken over at that date, intended to be employed?—l could not say ;I am not acquainted with the original endowments. 5444. Did the Act of 1872, in your opinion, specify distinctly that the College endowments were to be applied for University education?— That, I believe, is a moot question; but in my opinion they were most decidedly intended to be applied in that manner. 5445. Have any further endowments been made since ? —Tes; there have been a number of reserves,made from time to time by the Superintendent; but notably, I should say, a reserve of 10,000 acres of rural lands, made within the last two years or so, which was only sanctioned as a reserve by the General Assembly last year. 544 G. Had you any official duty to perform in connection with the selecting or setting-aside of these reserves? —Tes; I choso them myself. 5447. What was your understanding with regard to these reserves —were they to be applied to grammar-school or University education ? —My orders were simply to recommend certain reserves to be set aside as an endowment for the College. Being a governor of the College at that time, I had no doubt iv my own mind that setting aside reserves for the College meant an endowment for University education. 5448. We find in the return that, besides the two reserves amounting to nearly 10,000 acres, there are two other reserves —one at Pitzherbert, of 849 acres, and one at Palmerston North, of 32 acres ?— Tes ; those are the smaller reserves.

Bishop Baijield,

April 23, 1879.

Mr. H. JacJcson,

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5449. How were they set aside ? —By the Superintendent. 5450. Were they set aside by the same action that reserved the 1.0,000 acres ? —By the same action, no doubt—by the act of the Superintendent; but, I think, before the 10,000 acres were set aside. 5451. These small reserves do not appear in a confirming Act that was passed last session, confirming the grant of the 10,000 acres. Can you explain the cause of the omission ? —I can only account for it by the supposition that they have been overlooked. There is no doubt they were set aside by the Superintendent, if not at the same time, a short time before, and exactly for the same purpose as that for which the two largo blocks were set aside. 5452. Are you aware whether there are any endowments for purely grammar-school purposes within the Wellington Provincial District, apart from those which have been granted to the College ?— No ; lam not aware of any. Of course, the old building of the grammar school having been sold, aud other reserves bought in lieu of it, I cannot say whether those were set aside specially for the grammar school or not. 5453. There are certain of the reserves which are bringing in revenue ? —Tes. 5454. AVhat is the amount of the revenue ?—The income derived from rents of lands, just now, is £1,052 ss. 9d. 5455. In letting these reserves, has it been done by public auction ? Have measures been taken to obtain tho full value for them ? —Yes ; I think so. Since I have been a governor, and since I have had anything to do with the accounts, the reserves have in all cases been submitted to public auction. 5456. There is a reserve mentioned in the return, in the township of Carnarvon, of about 485 acres, against which there is no income placed. Can you tell us the value of that reserve, and how it is that it is not producing any revenue ? —The reserve consists of Sections Nos. 153, 150, and 158, containing 346 acres, valued at £2 per acre, and leased for seven years from 10th May, 1873, at £25 18s. 3d. per annum ; and of Section No. 200, containing 140 acres, also valued at £2 per acre. This latter section is not at present producing any revenue—l presume on account of its being a bushed section. 5457. There are several other reserves in the schedule which are not producing revenue. Cau you explain their value, &c. ? — Sections 42, 43, 44, and 48 in the Harbour District are almost valueless as they stand at present. They are mostly black birch bush, and part of very rough country. Ido not think any of these sections would lease, except for a very long period —say, for forty years —and at a merely nominal rent for the first twenty years. I should think these sections would sell—l do not say they would sell immediately, because the times are bad at present; but as soon as there is a demand again for land —and it would be far better to sell them, and invest the proceeds in some more reproductive property, which would bring in an income at once. Tou might keep these sections for fifty years, and I do not believe they would then let for anything like a fair sum. 5458. There are four other reserves in the schedule ? —With regard to those at Palmerston North, I should advise them to be kept for the present. Ido not know them intimately ; but, seeing that they only contain three acres, I should think they are what are called suburban sections ; or, if not, they are town sections. I should advise that they be kept for the present; because, depend upon it, they can be leased, if not immediately, within a short time—say five years. 5459. There still remain the two large blocks which were conveyed by the Act of last session?— The Paraekaretu Block —those are bushed hill lands, not very rough. I believe that block, containing some 4,000 acres, to be very good soil. And the Eangitumau Block, containing some 5,000 acres, I believe also to be very good soil. 5400. They are bringing in no revenue at present ?—No ; and there is not the slightest probability of their doing so, from the simple fact that people will not lease lands unless they can get a purchasing clause. If we are debarred from either selling these two large blocks or leasing them with a purchasing clause, it is equivalent to not having them at all. In this case they are absolutely worthless as endowments. 5461. Then it appears to be your opinion that, with the restrictions imposed, the fullest possible value is at present being obtained from all the reserves in the hands of the College P —Tes ; with the exception of twenty acres out of the sixty-nine acres immediately surrounding the College buildings. We are deriving the full benefit from all the other reserves. 5402. How do the twenty acres stand? —I believe they are very valuable building-sites, and may bring in eventually a revenue of from £400 to £500 a year. 5463. AVould you inform the Commission how the governors have obtained power to lease ? —A.n Act of the General Assembly was passed last session, empowering the governors to lease these lands, subject to certain conditions. 5464. AVhat rental do you think will accrue from them ?—Prom £400 to £500 a year. 5465. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the whole of the remainder of that block of sixty-nine acres suitable for building purposes ? —I should think a very large portion of the remainder would be suitable for building purposes ; but there appeared to be a very strong objection on the part of the Legislature last year to grant us permission to lease even the small quantity we asked for. 5466. Dr. Hector.] Do you not think it would be desirable to have a large reserve for the College to stand in—to surround the buildings?—lf I recollect right, the lands that we propose to lease—the twenty acres I have just mentioned —surround the College; but inside there is sufficient land left to the College for playgrounds and so forth. 5467. Do you think the balance, after deducting the twenty acres, should all be reserved for college purposes ? —No ; I don't think it need be. 5468. How much of it would be sufficient, in your opinion, for playgrounds, and for an extension of the buildings in the future? —There would be remaining about thirty-five acres, very likely. 5469. And how much of that would be required for the purposes I have mentioned? —I should think half of it might be available for building sites, and the rest for college purposes. 5470. In your opinion a reserve of twenty acres would be ample for college purposes ?—Tes ; in addition to the ground already occupied surrounding the buildings. 5471. The land, power to lease which has already been granted, immediately surrounds the area upon which the College stands ?—Tes.

Mr. H. Jackson.

April 23,1879.

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5472. And do I understand you consider that area quite sufficient for the College ? —For the College and playgrounds. 5473. Then outside the land that is proposed to be leased there remains about forty acres; and of that how much do you think might be leased without injuring the future prospects of the College ? — About half, I should think. 5474. The other half, you think, should be reserved for college purposes ?—Yes, for grazing purposes. There are sixty-nine acres altogether. 5475. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you say how the College acquired that site of sixty-nine acres ? — I could not explain fully; but Sir "William Pitzherbert gave a detailed account of how these sixty-nine acres came to be given over for college purposes ; and that account will be found in the proceedings of the Legislative Council of last year. 5476. My reason for asking the question is that this site does not appear in any authorized list of reserves issued from the Crown Lands Department that has come under my notice ?—No. It was originally, if I recollect right, a hospital reserve, and it also formed part of the Town Belt. There can have been no dealings with such a reserve in the Crown Lands Office. 5477. Certain reserves, which have been already referred to, in the Township of Carnarvon, in tho Harbour District, and in Palmerston North, are returned by the "Wellington College as among their reserves; but, like the College site, they do not appear in any return of reserves made by the Crown Lands Office: Can you explain how that comes to pass ?—No, I cannot. 5478. Dr. Hector.] Prom the documents in your possession as treasurer, can you give us some account of the transactions that have taken place with the endowments since the founding of the College in 1872 ? I want to know about how much has been spent on buildings, where it came from; and how much was annual revenue? I can only say that certain reserves were leased which bring in a certain income, and that there has been a sum of about £9,000 expended in building tho present College. A sum of -61,372 was raised by private subscription; there was a voto of £1,500 from the Provincial Council; there was a transfer from the savings bank of £1,274; and there was a loan of £5,000 authorized by the "Wellington College Loan Act of 1873. That £5,000 is still a debt on the College. 5479. "Were the sums you have mentioned expended in buildings ?—Tes. They make altogether nearly £9,000. 5480. What is the nature of the building ? Does it include more than mere class-rooms ?—Yes. One wing contains a master's residence, with dormitories, and all the requisites for accommodating at least forty boarders. 5481. Do you remember the cost of the central part of the building, intended for school-rooms ?— About £4,000. 5482. And the remainder of the expenditure was for the boarding establishment and for improving the grounds ?—Yes. 5483. At the time when the contract for the school part, which cost £4,000, was entered upon, had the governors sufficient money in hand to meet the contract ?—Yes. 5484. And it was subsequently, when tho additional building had to be erected, that the £5,000 had to be borrowed ? —Yes. 5485. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Wero the governors subjected to any kind of pressure to induce them to incur this liability on account of the boarding accommodation ?—That was before my time. I cannot say. 548 G. Dr. Hector.] Do you think the interest on a large sum for building was a fair charge against the annual revenue of the College ? —Most decidedly not. I should think, considering the revenues of the College at that time, it was most absurd to suppose that the College could bear such a charge ; and even now it cannot pay the interest. 5487. Then has the result been to keep the College management in perpetual financial difficulties ? —Yes; in continual debt. Ido not hesitate to say that until the College is relieved from this debt it cannot pay its way. 5488. How much annual revenue from endowments would be required to carry on the College as at present managed, independent of fees —I mean, taking the average number of scholars for the last three years as the basis of calculation ?—Our tuition fees would amount to about £800 per annum. 5489. Have they ever exceeded that in any year ?—Yes. When there were about 120 or 130 boys they came to something like £1,300 or £1,400. Biit during the last three or four years the numbers have decreased considerably, until at the present time there are only about 70 boys attending. 5490. Do you think there is a reasonable hope of the numbers increasing ? —Judging from the changes we have made, and still contemplate making in tho College, I think there is every likelihood of our numbers becoming doubled very shortly. 5491. Then, on that supposition, what income from endowments would be advisable in order to enable the College to be efficiently carried on ? —At present, to carry on the College we require £2,600 per annum. If the attendance becomes doubled this next year, the receipts from fees will bo about £1,400, leaving a deficiency of some £1,200. To meet that we shall have £1,052, derived from rents, which will still leave a deficiency of nearly £200, in addition to tho £500 per annum which we are paying for interest on the building loan. So that, looking at it in the best light, if we get our numbers doubled, as I presume we shall, we shall still be some £700 a year to the bad. 5492. Prom your acquaintance with the history of the College, do you think that it w*as ever intended that the College should be conducted except in a building supplied free of all annual cost to the governors ? I mean, in the arrangements which you have described to us as being made by the Superintendent, did they not contemplate supplying a building to the governors ? —Considering the endowments that were made for the College, from which we are only deriving at the present moment a sum of £1,000 a year, I should think that those who built the College and placed it in the position in which it now is, always contemplated that the building should never become an annual charge on the endowments, or even upon the fees. That is my opinion ; but I believe there are a few people who think otherwise.

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5493. What is the present financial position of the College ?—"We have an overdraft at the bank of £1.200. 5494. In addition to the liability for the £5,000 ?—Yes. If we carry on with our present means, we shall be nearly £2,000 in debt at the end of this year, besides the £5,000. In fact, unless we get material aid from the Government —unless we get this sum of £5,000, which we owe for buildings, taken off our hands—wo may fairly say that the College will be bankrupt, and the institution will not be able to carry on. 5495. How are the members of the governing body appointed under the Act of 1872 ?—A certain number become members by virtue of being members of the Assembly; the Mayor is also entitled to be a governor by virtue of his office; others are nominated by the Grovernment. Pormerly a certain number were nominated by the Superintendent, and a certain number by the Governor. I was one of those nominated by the Superintendent. But, since the Provincial Government was abolished, all nominations to vacancies have been made by the Governor. 5496. Por what period do they hold office ?—Ten years. 5497. What extent of power is intrusted by the Board of Governors to the headmaster—first, in relation to the appointment and dismissal of masters ? —I do not think that, up to the present time, the headmaster has had any powers in that respect. 5498. Is he consulted by the Board ia making appointments ?—lnvariably so. 5499. How far is he intrusted with the drawing-up of the curriculum of study ?—Hitherto he has had the entire drawing-up of the curriculum. 5500. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does he submit it to the Board for confirmation and approval? —That has not been done in my time ; but if the headmaster made a chango in the curriculum, or drew up a fresh one, ho would, no doubt, have to submit it to the Board for approval. 5501. Dr. Hector.] Does the headmaster arrange the time-table of the school?—Tes. 5502. And, in the enforcement of discipline, do the Board ever interfere with the master ? —Only when a complaint is made. 5503. Do you believe that the present curriculum of study is fitted for the education of the greatest number of the pupils who attend the school ? —Tes ; so far as the B.A. degree is concerned —the simple pass ; but, except with tho changes we have made in the staff, and anew curriculum to be fixed, I doubt whether students would be able to go up for honors. 5504. Are you now talking of the undergraduates who are at the institution ? —Tes. 5505. Tou do not include in your remarks the grammar-school department ? —No. I think that is perfect as it stands. 550 G. Do you think it is a good arrangement that a grammar school should be conducted in the same institution with the tuition of undergraduates ?—No; I do not think it is a good thing on the whole. But the fact of the matter is this, that unless we undertake the two classes of teaching in the samo institution, we should altogether fail to attain what was intended by the establishment of the College. 5507. Do you think it was intended, then, that both grades of education should be provided, or merely that there is no other means of providing the higher education except by the fees obtained for conducting the lower classes ? —Tes; I would say that, unless the two institutions—the lower school and the higher school—were kept under the same body, the higher education could not be provided, owing to the want of funds to procure the extra masters for the purpose. 5508. Bey. W. J. Habens.] .Supposing it to be resolved, by an authority competent to carry out its resolves, that there should be two separate institutions —one for grammar-school education and one for University education —do you think that the Wellington College should drop the grammar school and become a University College, or that it should drop its higher work and become a grammar school ? — In that case I should say the Wellington College should assume the functions of teaching higher education only. 5509. Do you think that in so doing tho endowments would be applied to their proper object? — If not the whole, certainly three-fourths of the present endowments would be then thrown into the proper channel; because I must admit there have been some endowments for the grammar school. 5510. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that the circumstances of the community in Wellington are such that an institution wholly devoted to higher education would meet with sufficient support to warraut its establishment at tho present time ? —I most decidedly believe so. There is a growing tendency amongst the young men in this province to go in for higher education. 5511. Do you think that, for the purely grammar-school purposes, the present site of tho College is convenient to the community ? —At present I should say it is not; but I have no doubt it will be in the.course of five years or so, when the town extends in that direction. 5512. Do you think the convenience of the community would be better served by having two grammar schools at distant ends of the town ? If the College were devoted to what I understand you consider its original purpose, and grammar schools were to be established, would it be better to establish two grammar schools distant from one another ? —Tes ; in that case I think it would be advisable ■—one at each end of the town. 5513. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that two grammar schools in Wellington could be as efficiently and economically conducted as one, taking into account the supposition that increased accommodation might induce a larger attendance ? —Viewing it in that light, I would answer the question in this way : I think it would be advantageous to have the two grammar schools, depending on the increased attendance defraying the extra cost of supplying masters for the two schools. If the grammar-school part is to be separated from the College, it is advisable, I think, that there should be two grammar schools, on account of tho distance from one end of Wellington to the other. Por instance : I live at the Hutt. At present I have two boys at the College as boarders, but next term I intend to send them in to College every day by the early train. But it would be impossible for me just now to get them at the College in time for its opening—they must be half an hour or three-quarters

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.. of an hour late. If there were a grammar school at the Thorndon end of the town, they could arrive in time for the opening. But at present, after reaching Wellington in the train they have still about three-quarters of an hour's travelling before they can arrive at the College. 5514. Dr. Hector J] Can you tell us, approximately, what is the number of town residents in the Lower Hutt—persons residing there in consequence of its proximity to Wellington ? —I should think that since the railway opened to tho Hutt at least fifty families have gone there. 5515. And do you think that number will increase? —I believe it will largely increase every year. Of course I am only talking of the families who are likely to send their children to the College. 5516. Is there any institution in the nature of a high school at the Hutt ? —Nothing whatever of that kind. 5517. Supposing it were determined to have two high schools, would it be a convenience to bave one of them in the Hutt District and the other in Wellington ? —No, I should think not. 5518. I mean, looking to the future?—lt depends upon what the population of the Hutt would increase to. If you were to be tied to only two grammar schools, I think it would be better that they should be in Wellington. There might be a third one established at the Hutt eventually. 5519. Do you think that the starting of two district high schools, under the provisions of the Education Act, would be of assistance in that direction? —Unless the district schools would lead their boys up to the matriculation point, I do not think it would. 5520. Do you think that parents are generally satisfied with the extent and quality of the instruction afforded at the College?—Tes, I think so. As a governor, I was formerly not satisfied with the whole of the curriculum, because I did not think it was possible that students could go beyond the pass for the B.A. degree ; but I think parents generally are satisfied. 5521. Have you formed any opinion as to the desirability of having the College inspected and examined, and by whom such inspection should be conducted? —I think the College should certainly be inspected once a year ; and I should say the most competent person to perform tho inspection would be the Inspector-General for tho colony. 5522. That is to say, that the inspection should be conducted by a Government officer ? —Tes. That inspection, however, should not interfere with the yearly examination by the governors, but should take place at some other time; because, otherwise, it would interfere somewhat with the functions of the governors. What is desired from the Inspector is a report to the governors on the general working of the College. 5523. Is the boarding establishment at the College under the control of the governors ?— Nominally so. 5524. Under whose real control is it ?—lt is really under the headmaster ; he receives the fees. 5525. The boarders, I think you have said, live in the College building ? —Tes. 552 G. Has that been found inconvenient in any case —through the occurrence of an epidemic causing the whole school to be suspended for a while? —Tes; such a thing has occurred. And I believe it has had a good deal to do with the falling-off in the attendance at the College. 5527. In the event of any additional buildings being erected, is it your opinion that the whole of the present buildings might be utilized for school purposes, and the boarding part of the building made separate? —I can hardly answer that question, because there are a number of small rooms in the present boarding establishment, and Ido not know whether they could be adapted for class-rooms. If they could be converted into class-rooms, then I think that by all means the boarding establishment should be separate from the school. 5528. Do you think that the boarding establishment is a great convenience to the community?— Tes ; because most of the boys who board at the College come from the country: and if it did not provide boarding accommodation I doubt whether the College would be nearly as popular as it is. 5529. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] I would like to know what you mean by inspection. Tou spoke also of an examination by the governors ? — The governors hold a yearly examination at Christmas-time, when there is a distribution of prizes. What I meant was, that tho inspection by the officer appointed by the Government should not take place at that time, so as to supersede or interfere with the examination which the governors themselves make at that time. 5530. What should be the nature of the inspection? —It should be a general inspection —to see that the curriculum is a proper one, that the masters are able to impart the instruction that is expected to be given, and that the scholars show a knowledge of the subjects being taught to them. 5531. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the officer appointed by the Government should on such an occasion have an opportunity of observing the actual working of the school —that is, that he should see it in its normal condition, the teachers and the boys alike going on with their work in his presence ? —Tes ; that is exactly what I mean. 5532. So far as the institution provides for undergraduates, do you think that an officer of the Government, or a person appointed by the University, would be the more proper person to conduct such inspection ? —1 think, on the whole, the officer appointed by the Government; provided always that the Government knew that the officer would be required to make such an inspection. 5533. If the inspection which is now being spoken of were made to include examination, do you think it would be advisable that the whole of such examination should devolve upon one person ? —I think one person would be quite competent to make the inspection. What I mean by inspection is such an inspection as the Inspector-General made last year of Wellington College; only it might go a little further, and include the process of observing the actual working of the classes ; and a little more time might be spent in the task. 553 A. Tou do not mean any testing of the degree of proficiency of the pupils ? —No, not in that sense ; but simply that they should show to what extent they really know what is being taught them by the masters. 5535. Dr. Hector.] In your capacity as head of the Survey Department in this district for a long time you have, no doubt, had some experience of the qualifications possessed by young surveyors entering the service ?—Tes.

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553 G. Could you favour the Commission with your views as to how far these surveyors are qualified for their work, and whether there is a sufficient machinery in the country to give them the requisite technical instruction ? —So far as my experience goes of surveyors in this country —and I occupied the position of Chief Surveyor or Director of Surveys for the Wellington Province, more or less, for seventeen years —I think that very little care has been taken to see that men who practise surveying have an adequate knowledge of mathematics. In fact, I may say that nine out of ten of the men arc entirely ignorant of mathematics. Iv my opinion, before a person is allowed to practise tho profession of surveyor, ho should, at all events, be required to pass a certain test in mathematics. In the case of youths coming from the College and entering the Government service, that test could be very easily applied; but it is not so easy with private surveyors. These are men who generally commence surveying by going out as chain-men in a survey party. If such a person happens to be a little intelligent, he observes how the surveyor levels his theodolite and makes entries in the fieldbook, and, having acquired that knowledge, he immediately sets himself up as a surveyor. Therefore I think it is highly desirable that all surveyors, whether entering the Government service or going into private practice, should be obliged to pass a certain standard, and give evidence that they are not only acquainted with a certain amount of mathematics, but also with the practice of surveying. I think the examination in tho practice of surveying should be left entirely with the Surveyor-General's Department ; but with regard to the theoretical knowledge—mathematics and the general theory—a certificate of competency could be very easily given by the College. I should recommend this to be done, because I have myself tried to institute examinations before passing applicants for licenses under the Land Transfer Act, the Native Lands Act, and for other licenses issued to surveyors ; I have given them a few ordinary questions to work —regular set questions—and the answers generally given have been perfectly ridiculous, showing a total ignorance of mathematics and of the simplest rules of geometry. Why I say that a certain amount of mathematics aud instruction in the theory of surveying should be given at the College is because then applicants would be aware that they would have to pass a certain examination. At present they come up and ask you to give them a certificate as a matter of course ; in fact, if you do not give them a certificate at once they consider themselves very ill-used, and in some cases go to the Surveyor-General, or somebody else, and have influence brought to make you give them a certificate. Whether a man has a sufficient practical knowledge of surveying is very easily tested, even by the length of time he has practised the profession ; but that is not the case with regard to his theoretical knowledge : and I hold that before being permitted to practise surveying an applicant should be required to show, not tbat he is a first-rate mathematician, but that he really has a certain knowledge of mathematics. 5537. Do you think that in connection with any college system it would be desirable that there should be a lectureship, or some person appointed for the purpose of conducting the special studies necessary for training surveyors? For instance, the necessity for having a School of Mines, to train mining surveyors, has been talked of. Do you think land-surveying is less technical or less important ? —I am decidedly of opinion that a lectureship in land-surveying, iv connection with the New Zealand University, would obtain moat beneficial results for the profession, and that such instruction is even of greater importance than in mining, considering the state of New Zealand at present. 5538. Do you consider there is a large outlet for the appointment of qualified surveyors ?—Very much so indeed. 5539. More than you would expect for mining surveyors ? —Par greater. 5540. And at the present time has a really qualified and highly-educated surveyor any advantage over one who is insufficiently qualified, in obtaining employment, either privately or in the public service ?—Privately, if a man is known to be a well-qualified surve)*or, he will stand a much better chance of obtaining employment than a surveyor who is not so qualified ; but with the Government I do not think that consideration stands in the way at all. 5541. And how would the qualifications cf a surveyor be ascertained in the case of private practice ?—They are generally ascertained, at present, by the reputation which he bears. 5512. So that he has to do a certain amount of surveying, before he is known ; and if he is not qualified he must, in fact, havo done a certain amount of damage to the interests of the country ?— Exactly so. 5543. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the course of mathematical studies necessary to make a man a fair surveyor differs in any respect from such a course of mathematical studies as forms part of an ordinary liberal education?— Certainly not. I would be content that a man should enter the Government Survey Department if he only knew mathematics as far as the matriculation point. 5544. Without trigonometry or logarithms ? —lt is decidedly necessary that a surveyor should know the elements of trigonometry and the use of logarithms. 5545. How much geometry would you exact ?—The first four books. 5546. Would you confine the examination in that case to Euclid, or would you allow the candidate to be examined on some other text-book or some other system ? —I think I should confine it to Euclid. My idea is, that a man should submit to a test on entering the service, that two years after that he should pass another examination, and that three years after that again he should pass a third examination, making altogether five years' service in the field, at the end of which time he should be a qualified surveyor, competent to undertake any department, provided he passes those examinations satisfactorily. At the test on entering, I think the candidate should be required to know Euclid, first four books; algebra, say up to quadratic equations; and have a certain knowledge of the elements of trigonometry and of the use of logarithms. At the second stage I would confine the examination to algebra up to the binomial theorem, and to trigonometry such as is contained in " Todhunter's Trigonometry for Beginners ;" aud at the third stage to trigonometry such as is contained in " Todhunter's Trigonometry for Colleges." If a man passed those examinations satisfactorily, he would be competent, so far as mathematics is concerned, to bold the office of Chief Surveyor. If he knew trigonometry well, as contained in " Todhunter's Trigonometry for Colleges," it would be quite sufficient, because that would imply a really good knowledge of geometry and mathematics.

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5547. Dr. Hector.] Are there any branches of study besides mathematics that are peculiarly essential or useful to a surveyor?—l should say that geology, to a certain extent, is a very necessary branch of study for a surveyor. 5518. Is there not much in the teaching of surveying, such as instruction in correct mapping, and what may be called applied geometry and applied trigonometry, that does not generally form part of a school course of mathematics? —I think that comes under the head of practical surveying. In addition to mathematics, for the theoretical part, a person, before obtaining a certificate as a surveyor, should be taught drafting to a certain extent. But Ido not think he need go into applied mathematics in the way of measuring distances, and so forth; this latter could be well tested in the SurveyorGeneral's Department. 5549. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou would be disposed to trust a man with a liberal education to do that work he told you he could do? —Certainly —with a little practice, of course. I hold that no one should be able to pass a final examination as a surveyor until he has been five years practising in the field. Then ho would be competent to do anything, provided he had received a liberal education. But in New Zealand nine out of ten of the surveyors cannot do a rule-of-three sum ; yet these are the men who call themselves competent surveyors: and there is nothing as yet to check them from practising. I think it would be a very good thing indeed to institute some degree at the College for surveyors —something similar to the Institute of Civil Engineers. 5550. Dr. Hector.] I suppose if there was a chair of engineering established it would include a great deal that w*ould be applicable to the education of surveyors ? —Yes, certainly. 5551. Has there been any actual loss to the public through insufficient knowledge on the part of surveyors ?—I can only answer that question by saying that I havo known properties to be surveyed twenty times over without even then a definite result being arrived at. The public have to pay over and over again for surveys until something is done which satisfies the Survey Department, and which it can pass. 5552. Tou are aware that some years ago there was a report made on the state of the surveys by Major Palmer, who called attention to many defects in the work which had been done by surveyors ?— Tes. 5553. How far could these defects have been obviated if there had been a proper system of checking and certifying surveyors ?—My opinion is, that the whole of the bad surveying complained of by Major Palmer was done by ignorant surveyors; and that had there been a proper check upon the men who were then admitted as surveyors, and a proper supervision exercised over them, those complaints would not have been made. 5554. Do you remember at what amount Major Palmer estimated the probable loss to tho country caused by this bad surveying ? —Something like half-a-million of money I thiuk —loss no doubt caused through the incompetence of surveyors. 5555. And you think that incompetence could be largely provided against if there was a proper system of examining and certifying surveyors before they were allowed to practise in the colony ? — Certainly. 5556. Do you think there would be any great advantage in establishing a nautical school for teaching the elements of navigation and astronomy to the seafaring classes in the colony ?—Tes; I think it would be very desirable. 5557. I suppose you know of no machinery in the colony at present by which a lad, devoting himself to a seafaring life, could obtain the instruction he requires ? —I am aware that somebody has set up in Wellington lately who professes to teach astronomy and the rudiments of navigation ; but there is nothing of that sort provided by the State. 5558. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the course of instruction should bo simply sufficient to enable a man to use tables and instruments with accuracy, or that it should contain so much of pure and applied mathematics as to enable a man to understand, at all events, simple astronomical problems, such as are involved in his work ?—I think the students should bo taught the requisite amount of mathematics so as to be enabled to understand the simple astronomical problems. Mr. Eobebx Lee was examined. 5559. Dr. Hector.] Tou are Inspector of Schools for the Provincial District of Wellington ?—Tes. 55C0. Can you inform the Commission what steps have been taken, if any, towards the establishment of a normal training school in the Wellington District ? —Tho matter has been brought before the Central Education Department by the Board of Education, and I have urged its importance upon the Board for several years past; but practically very little has been done. Tho Board have lately had the offer of a site from the General Government which might be suitablo for a normal school. 5561. Where is that ?—They had two sections offered to them on the reclaimed land, and the Board purchased another site in Sydney Street. Since then, however, we have been in hopes of obtaining a larger site —an acre and a quarter —on the Thorndon Flat, which will be more suitable in several ways—it is more central, contains a larger area, has more convenient approaches, and the land will be cheaper. It will be better to sell the sections on the reclaimed land, which is more valuable land, and invest the money to better advantage in this site at Thorndon. 5562. Does the Education Board receive any grant from the Government to be applied specially? —No. The Board had an offer from the Government of £2,000 for the purposes of a normal training school; but they were not able to utilize the grant, because they were crippled for want of buildings. I think the grant was in the first instance £2,000 for the year, and then it was reduced to £1,000 after half the year had elapsed. 5563. Was it contemplated to use one of the primary schools as the practising department of the normal school? —My suggestion was, that the training-school should be in Wellington, and that we should then use one of the large city schools as a practising school. But I thought it was also desirable that a model school should be more of the character of an ordinary country school; and for that reason I recommended the Board —and they have adopted the suggestion—to build a good

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country school at Kaiwarrawarra, which is within a mile of the Thorndon end of the town. I think that perhaps, with the Thorndon schools as practising schools, and with the additional model school at Kaiwarrawarra, we should bo very well provided with practising schools. 55C4. Then what did you propose should be done at the normal school at Thorndon ? —Having only £1,000, the suggestion now made by the Board to the Government is, that they should be allowed for this, and perhaps another, year, to appropriate the grant simply for building purposes. I suppose it was voted for the up-keep of a normal school; and, having no building, we are unable to use it for its legitimate purpose. I believe a similar grant has been made to Auckland, Christchurch, and Dunedin. where they have existing normal schools, and where, therefore, the grant can only be used towards the up-kecp of such establishments. We are anxious, in the lirst place, to obtain some building, in order that we may be able to utilize future grants. 55G5. "What number of teachers would the class be composed of?—I am unable to say. In the first instance the general idea in the mind of the Board was, that one large training school for the colony might be the best; but, inasmuch as normal institutions have already been established in three large centres of population, it would naturally follow that Wellington, being a large centre, would expect the same consideration. If there had been a system of Queen's Scholarships, as at Home, where pupil-teachers out of their apprenticeship have to pass a certain matriculation examination for entrance into the training colleges, then of course the number of students would largely depend on the number of Queen's scholars. 5566. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you aware that the Education Board of Dunedin supplies such scholarships out of the vote of £2,000 ?—I knew scholarships were given there, but I was not aware they were of that character, and open to the whole colony. 55G7. I think they are not open to the whole colony ? —Then I do not consider them Queen's Scholarships. A Queen's Scholarship is open to any one in the United Kingdom. 5508. What number of pupils do you expect will attend the normal school ? — I can hardly answer that. The suggestion last made by me was, that the Government should allow the Board to expend at least the £1,000, and more if they would, in putting tip a large lecture-room, a students' class-room, and perhaps a private room for masters —buildings that would not run into very much money. We thought that with such buildings, if a normal master were appointed, he could commence the work of normal training with available candidates. 1. or instance, this very day we appointed tw*o men, who are pretty good scholars, but very little acquainted with school management. We are 'compelled to make such appointments. If such candidates could be placed for a short time under a normal master, something could be done towards making them familiar with the work of the management of a school. We hoped to make a start in this direction at once, if possible. We know, of course, this does not mean the establishment of a normal school in the full sense of the word. The Board has lately incurred an expenditure which should legitimately be a charge upon the normal school funds, and not upon those of the Board, and they thought the Government would condone the matter. They have recently appointed a teacher for a school of art. It is only a very small matter, the salary being £100 a year. The lady in question is going to open Saturday classes—in the morning for the head teachers and assistant teachers, and in the afternoon for the pupil-teachers. 55G9. Dr. Hector.] And the only attempt to start a school of art in Wellington has been ia connection with the normal school ? —Tou may say so. The teacher began with a few pupils in a precarious way. 5570. But not connected with the Board ?—No, not in a public way. 557.1. Where is the present supply of teachers for this district generally drawn from ?—We are dependent very much on chance applicants and pupil-teachers. Wo have had a pupil-teacher system in vogue now for the last five years, and of course we are in a measure training our own pupilteachers in the schools, and these are just now coming out of their apprenticeship and becoming useful as assistants. 5572. How many of them would there be ? —I do not remember at the present moment. 5573. Would there bo fifty ?—Not more than forty, I should say. 5574. I presume all these would be ready sooner or later to attend the normal school ? —Tes. 5575. Then the pupil-teachers would form the section of the community from whom the normal school students would be derived ?—Tes, largely. There are other besides. 557 G. Have you felt in filling up appointments that you have derived any benefit from the existence of the normal schools in Christchurch and Dunedin ?—No. 5577. Have you had any teachers from those institutions ? —Only two female teachers. 5578. Then they do not seem to be producing teachers beyond their own requirements ?—No ;by no means. 5579. So that, as far as the present time goes, the existence of the normal schools in the South would be no reason for not starting one hero?— No. Those institutions in the South are not felt in ATellington. In the ease of the two female teachers to whom I have alluded, it was only by chance they came to our schools, as they were members of a family who removed to Wellington. 5580. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you remember that your Board intimated to the Government some time in the first half of last year that it would be prepared to establish a school as a normal school immediately, at a probable cost for the first year of £1,000 for ten students ?—Tes. 5581. Has it been found impracticable to carry that out? —No ; by no means. 5582. Then to what cause is the delay attributable? —We found that the Mount Cook class-rooms, which we thought would be available for this purpose, were almost immediately filled with children; so it became necessary for us to have a building before we could commence our work. 5583. Dr. Hector.] Would it not have been possible for the Board to have appointed a normal master, and obtained the use of some room temporarily? —I think it would. I may say that the thing is new to the minds of many members of the Board, and, although I have been fully impressed with its importance as an officer, I have not quite succeeded in convincing the Board as a whole that they could, if so disposed, take the matter up in this way, And that, I think, has been the cause of 36— H. 1.

Mr. U. Lee.

April 23, 1879.

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the delay. As, no doubt, you gentlemen are aware, these matters are perhaps brought on at a meeting, the members present do not quite see their way to take them up at once, a little procrastination occurs, and there is delay. Several members of the Board were not fully impressed with the fact that they could have done something in a temporary way. lam quite conscious myself that it could have been done. 5584. There are certain scholarships from the primary schools for secondary school purposes, provided for by the Education Act —a grant of Is. Gd. per head on the average. Has any effect been given to that provision in the Wellington District?—Tes ; all the scholarships are established, and the money is being utilized for tho purpose. 5585. Have they actually been established ? —No, not actually. This very day a meeting of the Scholarship Committee was called together. But we have issued regulations setting forth the number of the scholarships, the amount of each, and so on. The first examination has not been held. 5580. Where are these scholarships tenable ? —At the Wellington College, or any high school within the district that is open to inspection. 5587. Over what range of country does your district extend ? Does it include Wanganui ?—lt did formerly, but does not do so now. 5588. Will there be other scholarships available for a high school at Wanganui, if such is established ? —Tes. 55.89. Then what becomes of the Is. Gd. per head on the Wanganui scholars at the present time ? — I imagine it will be utilized by the Wanganui Board. I believe a school is being established at Wanganui, to which tho scholars would go. lam not speaking from actual kuowledgo. 5590. Who will conduct the scholarship examinations ? —That is not yet determined. Examiners will be chosen by the Board. 5591. AVhat standard are the candidates to be examined in ?—According to the Sixth Standard. 5592. Are there to be any additions, such as the rudiments of Latin, or of Euclid ?—No, not for our scholarships ; other scholarships are given by the College authorities. 5593. AVhen is the examination for these scholarships expected to take place? —Shortly. 5591. Are you acquainted with the AVanganui District ? —Tes ; I was examiner for four years in the AVanganui and Patea Districts. 5595. Is there a want in that district for an institution giving grammar-school education ?—I should say so. 5590. How far is that waut supplied by the Church of England Industrial School ? —To a limited extent. 5597. Is it because of a want of teaching power, or is there any objection on the part of the inhabitants to make use of that school ?—I could not say. I think it has laboured very much under the disadvantages which generally attend private schools, as compared with public institutions which are endowed, and have other attractions. The late master was considered a competent man. He broke down for other reasons ; but as a scholar and a manager he was considered competent. I have been inside tbe school, but could not speak as to the work done. The building was a poor one, and had not much accommodation. 5593. AYe have evidence that there is now a larger building. Do you think it will be made much use of by the community? —I cannot say. I have not been in AVanganui since it was built. I know that a large boys' high school has recently been built, on a portion of land leased from the Industrial School Estate, which I believe has been constituted a district high school ; and I presume the Board's scholars will go to that school. But I am scarcely competent to give an opinion on these matters, because what I know of Wanganui just now is simply from hearsay.

Mr. S. Lee.

April 23, 1879.

Thursday, 21th April, 1879. Present : Hou. W. Gisborne in the chair. Rev. W. J. llabens (Secretary), Eev. AY. E. Mulgan. Dr. Hector, Mr. C. C. N. Barron was examined. 5599. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Tou are Secretary to the Civil Service Examination Board ?—Tes. 5-00. AVho constitute the Board at present ? —Mr. G. S. Cooper, Dr. Hector, Eev. AY. J. Habens, Mr. Jonas "Woodward, Mr. Hislop, and the Eev. Mr. Harvey. The latter gentleman is at present in England. SGOI. Are they all Government officers except Mr. Harvey ? —Tes. 5002. Who is chairman ? —Mr. Cooper. 5G03. Is the Board constituted under an Act, or under regulations of the Government ?—Under an. Act; and regulations are issued by virtue of that Act. 5GO_. The Act itself, I think, does not prescribe anything in detail, except that the examination shall not be competitive ? —lt merely provides that there shall be an examination as prescribed by the Governor. 5005. Does it not say that the examination shall not be competitive ?—Tes. 5000. Could you tell us what the regulations are?— They are as follows : —[Regulations read.] 5007. Those who pass a curtain standard are eligible for admission to the Civil Service? —Tes. 5008. There are two examinations, are there not ? —Tes ; one Is called the junior examination and the other the senior. 5009. What do you think of tho junior examination ? Do you think the standard is a high or a low one? —I think it is a fair standard. 5010. What does it qualify for? —Eor admission to the Civil Service. 5011. Not for promotion?— No.

Mr. Barron.

April 24,1879.

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5612. Bey. W. J. Habens.] "What is the minimum age of candidates for the junior examination ?—Fifteen years. 5613. Do you know if that examination is made use of by any schools as a test of their own efficiency ? —lt is very largely used in that way. 5614. To what class of schools do you think it may be applied as a suitable test ? —I should say to middle-class schools. 5615. Do you think it is a fair leaving examination for a good grammar school ?—Scarcely high enough for that, I think. 5616. Hon. W. Gisborne.] The junior examination qualifies for entrance into the Civil Service; but the senior examination must be passed before promotion can be obtained? —Yes. The junior examination simply consists of English, arithmetic, history, and geography. There are four compulsory subjects for the senior examination, and, in addition, two other subjects which are at the option of the candidates. 5617. There are no optional subjects for the junior examination ? —No. 5618. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you had any instances of boys coming up from the primary schools sufficiently prepared to pass tho junior examination?— Exceptional instances have occurred; but very few. 5619. Do you know whether any of those boys passed?—Tes. But I know of one or more boys who won scholarships from primary schools aud failed to pass the junior examination. 5620. Hon. W. Gisborne.] A candidate cannot pass tho senior examination without first passing the junior ?—No. 5621. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the primary school or the secondary school furnishes the best preparation for the junior examination ?—The secondary school, as a rule. 5622. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you know the standards in tho primary schools ?—No. 5623. Tou do uot know what the junior examination would correspond to ?—No. 5624. How often are examinations conducted ? —-Twice a year —in June and December. 5625. Dr. Hector.] Is there any great advantage in having the examinations twice a year? —Tes. 5626. Do you think that in the case of the senior examination once a year would not be sufficient?—l think not. 5627. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Could you tell us the number of boys examined —say, at the last examination ?—Last December 126 boys presented themselves for examination in both grades. 5628. Bey. W.J. Habens.] Would you be good enough to refer to the Sixth Standard for examination in the primary schools, as contained in the regulations under the Education Act, and, comparing that with the 3rd section of the Civil Service Examination Regulations, say how far you think any one well prepared in the Sixth Standard would be able to pass the junior examination?— The Sixth Standard is, I think, a little higher than that of the junior examination. 5629. Hon. W. Gisborne.] In the last report presented by the Board of Examiners to the Assembly it is stated that at the December, 1877, examination, " 121 candidates presented themselves for examination—9B candidates underwent, and 49 passed, the junior examination ; 35 candidates underwent, and 13 passed, the senior examination :" and that at the June, 1878, examination, " 73 candidates presented themselves for examination —59 candidates underwent, and 26 passed, the junior examination ; 29 candidates underwent, and 13 passed, the senior examination." According to these figures, for every two who present themselves one is what you might call " plucked." Was that the proportion at the last examination ?—Very nearly; 72 passed out of 126 last time, showing a slight improvement. 5630. Dr. Hector.] What is the total number of candidates who have presented themselves for examination since the Board was formed?— Seven hundred and twenty-two. 5631. How many of these have obtained certificates ? —I could not say at present. The examinations have extended over a period of ten years ; but very few candidates presented themselves at first, and nearly all of the number I have mentioned were examined during the last four years. There were 126 last December. 5632. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is there any one subject in which candidates on the average are weaker than in the others ?—They are generally very weak in history. 5633. Hon. W. Gisborne.] And geography ? —Tes. 5634. Dr. Hector.] When they take up science, how do they stand? —Not so badly. 5635. Do many take up science as an optional subject? —No, not many. 5636. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you account for the deficiency in history and geography ?—I can only imagine that it is because those subjects are not taught thoroughly in the schools. 5637. Dr. Hector.] From what part of the colony do the candidates generally come ? Is there any inequality in that respect?—A good many come from Auckland and from Nelson ; not so many from Christchurch and Dunedin. 5638. Do you remember how many there have been from Christchurch and Dunedin during the last two years ?—Probably about twenty from each place in the year. 5639. How do you account for there being fewer candidates from those places ? Has the examination been as fully made known to the public there as elsewhere ? —Tes. I cannot account for it. 5610. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you been able to form any opinion as to the comparative proficiency of the boys in two classes of subjects —in subjects, on the one hand, which rather require accurate memory, and those, on the other hand, which rather require a knowledge of principles and a power of applying them —whether the memory is cultivated, or the faculty of thinking developed ?—That is rather a difficult question to answer, because some schools no doubt cultivate tho one more than the other, and I have noticed great differences in that respect, judging from the papers of the candidates themselves. That is to say, you will find half-a-dozen boys from one school who have evidently been well taught, and taught to reason, and you will find the same number from another school who havo been taught very much by rote and memory, and who are unable to answer any question requiring thought. 5641. Can you say which kind of proficiency in this connection the Civil Service examination tends to promote ?—I should say it tends to cultivate the reasoning faculty. 5642. Tou think it is designed to do that ?—I am sure it is.

Mr. Barron.

April 24, 1879,

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5643. Do the Civil Service examiners attach any very great weight to book-keeping and to precis. writing ? —To precis-writing, certainly ; but to book-keeping, not much weight—to preci. ?-writing because I think it is a subject which the examiners consider requires a good deal of reason and thought. 5644. Hon. W. Gisborne.] And it is essential in the higher brandies of the public service ?—Tes. 5645. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that boys coming from school are likely to be well prepared in prSdt-wiitiag ?—No. 5646. Dr. Hector.] Do you think any of the schools specially prepare for it, and exercise the boys in it? —No doubt; but it is a subject which cannot bo taught, and must be acquired by practical experience. 5647. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Then, do you think it would be wise rather to demand some evidence of a boy's mental power and general culture, and to trust to his after-experience to make him expert in the subject of precis- writing ? —No, not from the Civil Service point of view ; because fhe examination iv which he is required to write a precis is the examination which qualifies him for promotion in the service. 5648. Do you not think it is very difficult for a schoolmaster to put into a boy's hands from day to day a sufficient amount and variety of matter to give him the necessary practice for becoming expert in »r<fcw-writing ?—Tes. 5649. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Cannot a schoolmaster give a boy a page of any Blue Book ? —Blue Books are not at the disposal of all schoolmasters, as a rule. 5650. Or any correspondence ? —I think it would be difficult to provide the necessary matter in a school. 5651. Do you mean physically difficult in procuring matter ? —I should think it would be so, because a school is not like a public office, in which there is always a large quantity aud variety of correspondence available. 5652. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the same kind of difficulty exists with regard to the teaching of book-keeping in schools ? —Tes. 5053. Do you think that a boy with an accurate knowledge of arithmetic, and some knowledge of mathematics beyond that, and who had shown a certain amount of ability that made him a promising candidate, would not very soon learn book-keeping when he had to deal with the actual accounts that had to be kept ?—I should say so, most decidedly. 5654. Dr. Hector.] In judging of the precis papers do not the examiners generally treat them to a large extent as exercises in English composition and writing?—Tes. 5655. Do they not judge of the quality of the answer more from that point of view than from its being what may be termed an office digest of the correspondence ?—Tes. 5656. What directions to the candidates accompany the precis papers ? —They are as follows : — 1. The object of tiie abstract, schedule, or docket is, to serve as an index. It should contain the date of each letter, the names of the persons by whom and to whom it is written, and, in as few words as possible, the subject of it. The merits of such an abstract are—(l) to giye the really important point or points of each letter, omitting everything else; (2) to do this briefly; (3) distinctly; and (4) in such a form as to readily catch the eye. 2. The object of the memorandum or precis, which should be in the form of a narrative, is that any one who had not time to read the original letters might, by reading tho precis, be put in possession of all the leading features of what passed. The merits of such apre'eis are —(1) to contain all that is important in the correspondence, and nothing that is unimportant ; (2) to present this in a consecutive aud readable shape, expressed as distinctly aa possible ; (3) to be as brief as is compatible with completeness and distinctness. Tou are recommended to read the whole correspondence through before beginning to write, as the goodness both of the abstract and of the precis will depend very much on a correct appreciation of the relative importance of the different parts. Brevity should be particularly studied. 5657. Hon. W. Gisborne.] I suppose you find very few boys who are able to make a good precis ? —Very few ; occasionally there are one or two boys who do well. 5658. It is not taught in any of the schools ?—I thiuk so. 5659. Except with a view to tho Civil Service examination ? —That may be. 5660. Dr. Hector J] In your opinion, would il be advantageous to embody with the instructions all regulations that are made public prior to the examinations? —Tes. 5661. Hon. W. Gisborne] What do you think of prSeie-'Viritrng apart from its special connection with the Civil Service ? Do you think it is a good element in the examination from an educational point of view ?—Tes, I do. 5662. It improves the composition and exercise, the intellect in condensing and analysing ?—Tes, ver}' much. 5663. Besides being a very "useful thing in after-life ? —Tes. 5664. Dr. Hector.] Ton stated that the Act says that the examination should be without competition. Do the examiners hold that to relate to the appoiutment which shall bo without competition, or to the examination ; because I find that the candidates are classified in the order of merit ? —Tes ; that is with regard to the examination, which is comparative, but not competitive. 5665. Hon. W. Gisborne.] What I understand by the competitive examination is this: that if there is a vacancy in the Civil Service, people are examined, aud the one who is the highest obtains the appointment ; or, in other words, you have a competitive examination, and the highest candidate gets the first vacancy ? —ln that sense tho examination is not competitive. 5666. Dr. Hector.] But in the sense of publishing the candidates' names in the order of merit it is competitive ?—Tes. 5667. .But it does not lead to an appointment ?—No. 5668. Have you any register of the appointments made?— No. 5669. Do you know how far the roll of candidates who have passed these examinations is exclusively drawn on for appointments in the Civil Service? —I cannot say; but lam frequently applied to by heads of departments to know what candidates have passed, and to obtain their addresses, with a view to their appointment in the Service.

Mr. Barron.

April 2i, 1879.

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5670. Tou have already stated that fewer candidates come from the southern provinces than from the north. Do you know if there arc fewer appointments made in the Civil Service from the southern part of the colony ? —I am not prepared to answer that. 5071. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you know for a fact that many candidates present themselves for examination without their parents or their guardians having tho slightest intention of putting them into the Civil Service ; but only with a view to qualifying for employment in banking and other institutions?— Yes; I know that at present the majority of the candidates who present themselves do not intend to enter the Civil Service. 5672. Dr. Hector.] Is there a fee charged in cases where the caudidate does not enter the Civil Service?—A fee of two guineas is charged for those who are not candidates for employment in the Government service. 5673. What do those pay who are candidates for employment ?—Nothing. 5671. Hon. W. Gisborne.] AVhat is the income from fees ?—Fifty-four pounds ten shillings an'l sixpence was received last year. The amount is small, because the question as to employment iv the Civil Service is nearly always answered in the affirmative. 5675. Dr. Hector.] 'What funds does the Board receive for carrying on the department? —Two hundred pounds is voted annually by the Assembly. 5676. How is that expended ? —Last year the expenditure was as follows : —Advertising, £3 9s. Bd.; attendance of member of Board not being a member of the Civil Service, £25; books, £3 6s. 6d.; preparation and revision of papers, £80 10s. ; supervision and expenses of rooms, furniture, stationery, &c, £131 Os. 4d. 5677. By whom are the examiners appointed ? —The members of the Board are the examiners. 5678. Are the members of the Board who are also members of the Civil Service remunerated for the examination papers ? —No. 5679. In the event of any proposal being made to combine the Civil Service examination with the matriculation examination for the University, do yon think any serious inconvenience weald be caused by confining the senior examination to one period iv the year instead of its taking place twice a year ? —I think it would be inconvenient. 5680. On what ground ? —lt would be inconvenient to candidates for employment in the Civil Service. 5681. Is it not frequently the habit for applicants for appointments in the Civil Service to be at work on probation for a certain period before they actually undergo their examination ? —Tes. 5682. Could advantage not be taken of that to allow them to defer, the examination until December in each year, without inflicting any inconvenience upon them? —Xo; it would be an inconvenience, because it would make their probation a year instead of six months. 5683. That is, supposing they entered the service in January ?-i-Tes. 5681. I am now talking of the senior candidates ?—Tes. Some of the departments allow candidates who have been unable to pass tho first time to go up for examination again—-this is done by the Survey Department and the engineer's branch of the Public Works Department —and in such cases the alteration which you suggest would make the probation two years instead of one year. 5655. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know if the branches of the Service to which you have referred limit the option of candidates in tho choice of their special subjects? —Tes, they do, judging from the applications of candidates who are probationers in those departments. 5686. The Engineer's Department, for instance, would require that they should take certain mathematical subjects ? —Tes. 5687. Dr. Hector.] If tho senior Civil Service examination were to be taken as a general examination by tno>e leaving school, which would be the most convenient period? —December. 5688. Then the midwinter examination would be of special use for the Civil Service?—Tes, for the Civil Service alone. 5689. And especially for those who had failed at the previous examination ? —Tes. 5090. Do you think, then, that the difficulty of adopting a midsummer examination to be identical with tho University matriculation examination could be got over by having a special examination at midwinter? —Yes. 5091. What is your opinion as to the effect which would be exercised on the examinations by allowing the University to appoint the examiners?—l should think it would not have much effect on the Civil Service examination itself, but as combining that examination with others I should think it would have a most beneficial effect. 5092. Do you think the examinations would be apt to be too abstract, and of too hard a nature for the average of applicants who apply from the Civil Service point of view ? —Possibly. I know that the Board has had the subject before it on previous occasions, and has felt that it ought to retain the examination of candidates for the Civil Service iv its own hands. 5693. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Could you describe how the examinations are conducted? Who prepares the papers? —Tho Board of Examiners in Wellington. 5691. Do they prepare them themselves, or do tliey employ people for the purpose ? —They nearly always prepare them themselves, the exceptions being papers on special subjects. 5695. Are you not employed to prepare them as secretary ?—Not as secretary. 5690. But, practically, you have a great deal to do with the preparation of the [tapers ?—Tes. 5697. Would you describe the process adopted with regard to the out : stations? —The papers are prepared by the Board of Examiners in Wellington. They are then forwarded to some responsible Government officer, or other person in whom the Board can rely, at each station at which candidates have applied to be examined. 5098. What precaution is taken to secure secrecy when the papers are printed, and before they are forwarded ? —They are printed at the Government Printing Office under the responsibility of the Government Printer, and every care is taken, both by that officer and myself, as Secretary to the Board, to prevent anything being known.

Mr. JBarron,

April 21, 1879.

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Mr. Barren,

5699. Dr. Hector.] Has any miscarriage ever occurred to your knowledge ? —None. 5700. No complaint has ever been made ?—No; nor have I ever been able to discover in any way, or detect from the papers of candidates, that they have seen the questions before they were required to answer them. 5701. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Then, after the papers are printed, they are sent to some responsible person until the day of examination takes place? —Tes—sealed in envelopes, which are marked on the outside when they are to be opened. At the time indicated, the envelopes containing the papers are opened in the candidates' presence, and at the conclusion of the specified time the written answers are enclosed in envelopes iv the presence of the candidates, and are then returned to the secretary, at Wellington. 5702. And the supervisor is constantly there P—He is, according to the instructions, constantly in the presence of the candidates. 5703. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How does the supervisor manage when he has to examine the reading of the candidates ?—The Board has ceased to give reading lessons to candidates ; it found the difficulty was so great. 5701. Hon. W. Gisborne.] There is dictation, is there not ? —Tes ; but the candidates are not asked to read. 5705. But the supervisor reads out the dictation? —There is no difficulty in that respect. 5706. Then the papers, when they are returned, are, I suppose, submitted to the Board? —Tes; and the members of the Board decide what candidates have passed, and the names are then gazetted according to the order of merit. 5707. Dr. Hector.'] Have you had any opportunity of judging how far this examination has been appreciated by the public, and in what estimation it is held by teachers and others ?—Tes. I have received letters from the heads of several educational establishments speaking very highly of it—in fact, going so far as to say, that they prefer preparing candidates for the Civil Service examination to preparing them for the University scholarship examinations. They say that there is such uncertainty with regard to the standard of the University scholarship examinations, that boys are disheartened in their preparation ; whereas they know what is before them in the case of the Civil Service examination. 5708. Has there been any marked improvement in the work done in the schools of late years, as far as you can judge by the results of an examination of the candidates' papers? —There has been an improvement; but I should not like to say a very marked improvement. 5709. That, of course, might arise from various causes ? —Tes. 5710. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Tou said educational establishments seemed to appreciate the examination. Do not other establishments—commercial establishments and the Government themselves— appreciate it, by admitting the boys who have passed the examination ? —Tes. It is also appreciated by employers generally of clerical work. The senior examination has of late years been largely used for the lay examination for the law. 5711. How is it used ? —The judges accept the certificate of candidates who have passed the senior Civil Service examination as equivalent to their having passed the general knowledge examination. 5712. Dr. Hector.] Have you any records that would enable you to ascertain the subsequent history of those who have passed the senior examination ?—No ; 1 think it would be impossible to obtain such information. 5713. Is there any general roll published, beyond the annual roll of those who have passed for the year, such as a University would keep of its graduates ? —No. 5714. Do you think it would be advisable to publish such a register in some form ?—I don't think so ; because it is a technical examination, and not like a general test of education. 5715. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Have you ever heard any imputations of favouritism, or of injustice done to boys who have been examined?— There have never been any charges. I heard once, very indirectly, that a schoolmaster in Wellington had said something about none of his boys ever having passed; but it came to me so filtered that I could not really catch what it was: it was nothing I could take notice of. 5716. There have been no charges brought forward formally ? —No. 5717. Can you show us a list of the candidates who have presented themselves, and their places of residence?—We do not publish the names of the candidates who fail. Ido not know that it would be right to make them public without instructions from the Board. 5718. Can you say whether of the candidates who present themselves there is a larger proportion of boys who do not pass from the South than from the North ?—Certainly not. The examination is less used by persons in Dunedin and Christchurch because, I suppose, they have their own colleges to test the candidates in the schools. 5719. Is it not the case that a great many boys come from Nelson in proportion to other places ? — Tes. 5720. Have they made it a specialty ?—Tes. At the last examination there were twenty-nine boys from Nelson College alone. Professor Kibk, P.L.S., was examined. 5721. Hon. W. Gisborne.] What is your occupation ? —Lecturer on Natural Science at Wellington College. 5722. How long have you been employed in that institution? —A little over five years. 5723. What are your duties there ? —To deliver lectures on the different branches of natural science. 5724. How often do you deliver them ?—I lecture three days in the week, giving two or three lectures a day, as may be required. 5725. To any particular form, or to all the boys? Is attendance at the lectures optional? —The students who attend are selected by the principal from the upper forms. 5726. How many pupils have you ? —The number has varied from ten to forty. At present I hare thirteen.

April 24, 1879,

Professor Kirk.

April 24, 1879,

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5727. Bey. W. J. Habens.] To what forms in the school do they belong ?—The two highest forms. 5725. The Fifth and Sixth ? —I presume they would now be termed the Upper and Lower Fifth. 5729. Hon. W. Gisborne.] What do you lecture on ?—Botany, zoology, and geology. It is open to the public to attend on payment of certain.fees. 5730. Do any attend? —-No one is attending this course. 5731. Are you connected with any other educational institution, or do you give lectures anywhere else?—l cannot engage in any other than College work without the consent of the governors. 5732. And you do not engage iv any other work ? —-No; I am not engaged in any other work officially. 5733. Arc you connected with the New Zealand Institute ?—Tes ; I am one of the governors. 5731. I mean professionally. Tou do not give lectures there ?—No. 5735. Tou know ail about the New Zealand Institute ?—I am pretty well acquainted with its work and with its objects. 5736. Dr. Hector.] Do you think the non-attendance of the public at the lectures you give at the College is due to some extent to the circumstance of its being a school ? —J think it is, to some extent. Might I be permitted to add that arrangements are now in progress for the formation of classes for females. I understand that next term lamto be called upon to lecture to a class of females. 5737. Have any arrangements been made for extra evening classes in connection with the College which will affect your department ?—Not that lam aware of. The first year after I came to Wellington I delivered a course of evening lectures on botany. That was attended, I think, on an average, by four. I made arrangements to deliver a course of lectures on zoology, but no one came forward to attend. 5738. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Tou were employed by the College then ? —Those lectures were in connection with the College. 5739. Were they given in town ? —-Tes; at the Provincial Buildings. 5710. We wish to ascertain what your opinions are with regard to technical education. Is the New Zealand Institute a body adapted to give lectures and instruction in science, arts, and philosophy in different parts of the colony? 1 mean, could it get the men for the purpose if it had the means of paying them ? I suppose it is represented in different parts of the country by branches ? —The various scientific societies in the chief centres of population are affiliated with the New Zealand Institute, and may, of course, in a certain sense be considered as its constituents. 5741. Wellington is the head-quarters?—Tes. In Wellington it is represented by the Philosophical Society, which is affiliated, and which is the second society in point of numbers in the colony. 5742. Do you know the numbers? —Two hundred and thirty. 5743. What is the subscription ? —A guinea per annum. 5744. And you have 230 paying members ? —Tes. 5745. Will you mention the other affiliated societies ?—There is the Hawke's Bay Society, called the Philosophical Institute, numbering, according to the report, about 68 members; but I believe the number has since increased. The subscription is the same as in the case of the Wellington Society. There is the Auckland Institute, which at the same date comprised 278 members. The subscription there is the same, with an entrance fee of one guinea. At Nelson there is a society called the Nelson Association ; but it is in a very poor state. The number of members is estimated at 50, but the society is not in a condition of activity. The Canterbury Philosophical Institute, at Christchurch, numbers 100 members. The subscription is the same :it was higher, but the Council found it necessary to reduce it. The Otago Institute, in Dunedin, comprises 221 members, the subscription being the same; and the Westland Institute is composed of 175 members. 5746. Then what does the head-quarters at Wellington consist of ? —A number of governors, partly elected by the various societies and partly appointed by the Crown. 5747. What does the body itself consist of? —The body itself, as I take it, consists of the members of the affiliated societies. 5748. There is not a separate body ? —No. 5749. It is a corporate body, and consists of toe aggregation of the different affiliated societies ?—■ Tes. 5750. But it is a governing body itself?—Tes. 5751. How is the money spent which is received ? —The chief portion of the funds at the disposal of the Board of Governors is spent in the publication of the annual volume of transactions. 5752. Transactions from different parts of the colony —lectures delivered and papers read on scientific subjects at the different branches ?—Tes, on scientific subjects ; more especially those intended to elucidate matters connected with the colony. 5753. That volume has been published for how many consecutive years ? —The eleventh volume is now nearly ready for issue. 5754. It is a large volume ? —lt contains from six hundred to seven hundred pages. 5755. It is circulated among the scientific societies in England, is it not ? —Tes; and in all parts of the world. 5756. Have you heard what opinion is entertained of it in places outside the colony ?—Tes. 5757. It is appreciated a great deal, is it not ? —lt takes the highest rank amongst similar publications in the British colonies. 5757 a. And that is all to be attributed to the efforts of the New Zealand Institute? —Entirely. 5758. Dr. Hector.] Will you explain about the finance?— The money at the disposal of the Board of Governors is very small, and consists in the main part of an annual grant of £500 made by Parliament. The Wellington Society contributes a fixed proportion —I think a sixth—of its entire subscriptions. It is necessary for the other affiliated societies to spend a somewhat larger proportion of their income—a third —in maintaining a public library or a public museum in their respective localities. 5759. They do not contribute in Wellington, I suppose, to what is called the Colonial Museum?— Not directly. One-sixth of the entire subscriptions of the Wellington Society is paid to the Board of Governors for the general purposes of the New Zealand Institute.

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5760. The Canterbury Philosophical Society does not contribute to tbe Christchurch Museum: it does not maintain a separate museum of its own ? —No ; but at Christchurch books are purchased every year to the extent of one-third of the subscriptions of the local society, aud placed in the Public Library of the town. 5761. And at Auckland? —There the Museum is maintained entirely by the subscriptions of the members of the Auckland Institute. 5762. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In their capacity as members ? —The Museum in Auckland is the Museum of the Auckland Institute, and has no income but that which it derives from the Institute itself. 5763. Dr. Hector.] It has grants from the Government, I think ? —lt had one grant two years ago, towards the cost of the building. The members of the Institute have erected a substantial brick building for their museum, and the Government two years ago made a very handsome grant to the society ; but there is no grant in aid, and no endowment. 5764. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do these different branches meet periodically ? —Tes; each branch afc its own centre. 5765. How often ? —Not fewer than six times in the course of the year. 5766. And afc such meetings lectures are given ? —lt would be more correct to say that papers are read. 5767. Do you know of any of these societies that have classes, or give instruction in any way ?—I am not aware of any classes, except in connection with the Auckland Institute. There is now a collection of models for drawing ; and a teacher is paid. 5768. Does the local society at Dunedin contribute to the Museum there ? —Tes ; the proportion of one-third of its subscriptions, I believe, is paid annually to the Museum. 5769. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Were the models purchased, and is the drawing-teacher paid, out of the funds of the Institute at Auckland ? —The models were presented by a very enthusiastic member of the society ; and the collection has been added to by another member. With regard to the drawingteacher, as I understand, one member guarantees the salary, but it is paid by the Institute. 5770. One member makes himself responsible on behalf of the Institute for any difference there may be between the total amount of the fees and the sum due annually to the teacher ? —As I understand, there are no fees ; all persons who choose can take advantage of the instruction given by the teacher. 5771. Then, practically, the salary of the teacher is a private donation to the Institute ?—Tes. I may say that I have no personal knowledge of this matter. 5772. Hon. W. Gisborne.] I understand that, with only the assistance of £500 a year from the State, the New Zealand Institute really performs the following functions : —lt bas branches at the different centres of population throughout the colony ; it has papers read there periodically ; it publishes annually a volume of philosophical transactions, which is widely circulated in the colony and abroad, and very much appreciated; it contributes through some of its branches to the maintenance of museums, and also to the public libraries ? Are not those tbe chief functions which it fulfils ?—I think the last one mentioned will require a little modification. It is rather the cause of contributions being made to public libraries than the source from which tho contributions come. 5773. But it does all those things I have mentioned exclusively out of the funds derived from private subscriptions, w-ith the exception of the £500 which is annually granted by the State ?—Tes ; if you include the Kew Zealand Institute and its branches. I think it is very desirable that it should be recorded that a volume of transactions is presented to each member of all the affiliated societies who has paid his current subscription ; and I think more is done in that way tow rards keeping these societies going, and going in a somewhat vigorous manner, than would be done by a grant of three or four times the present amount expended in other ways. 5774. Dr. Hector.] How far does the value of the volume represent the amount of the subscription ? —A book of its size, and got up in the same way, would certainly fetch a much higher price. If an edition of a similar size to that which we issue were published, it could not be sold for the price of the subscription. 5775. What is the price of the book ? —lt is supposed to be one guinea. No copy is allowed to be sold under a guinea. That represents the subscription. I may state that several of the volumes are now at a premium in the market, and copies are bought up wherever they can be got. 5776. Has the New Zealand Institute any land endow rment ? —No. 5777. Do you think there would be any demand in Wellington and the other principal cities of the colony for evening lectures of a technical character, adapted for artisans and persons engaged in business who might desire a little more education than they received, at school ?—I think there would be a demand. 5778. I am now talking of technical education, apart from that either provided or contemplated by the University arrangements ; something coming, as it were, between the education received by the artisan and tbe lower stages of what you would term University education? I mean applied science, drawing, mechanics, and subjects of that kind, which bear directly upon the employment of the people ? —To some extent I think there would be; but it would be a matter of growth. 5779. Are you aware that the New* Zealand Institute Act contemplated the growth of such institutions ? —Tes. 5780. Do you think it would be possible to intrust the development of such technical schools, for artisans and the classes who do not take advantage of the University, to the New Zealand Institute ?— It could be done, certainly ; but it would be necessary that the Institute should be furnished with funds for that purpose. 5781. Do the museums, as at present existing, more or less directly, in relation to tho Institute, exercise, in your opinion, an educational effect? —-To a certain extent. 5782. Do you consider that by proper organization that effect could be greatly increased ?—Undoubtedly.

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5783. How would yon propose doing that?—" With regard to tbe effect itself, I think one evidence of it may be seen in the increase of writers in the transactions. 'We have amongst our writers now several young men who have received the chief portion of their education in tbe colony. That fact alone, I think, shows that an educational influence has been exercised, not perhaps solely by museums, but by those institutions in connection with other agencies. 5784. Do you think that to obtain the full benefit from a museum in any place there should be lectures in connection with it ?—Tes. 5785. Do you think it advisable that museums intended for the public, and organized and founded out of funds other than University funds, should be placed under direct control in relation to the University ? —Not as the University is constituted now. 5786. Bey. W. J. Habens.] For what trades do you think, in the present stage of our progress in this colony, technical instruction is necessary, or would be highly valued by those for whom it is intended ? —I should not like to say it would be highly valued by the bulk. 5787. I sa}*, by those for whom it is intended ?—Highly valued by a few amongst them—most of the decorative trades, for instance, and those engaged in ornamental work. I think we should find a few of the more intelligent amongst them who would like to avail themselves of technical instruction, and particularly artisans whose work is in wood or metal. 5788. Do you think that, apart from the question of the mere utility of instruction in science, such as could be given in connection with museums, it is desirable, for tho sake of recreation and general enlightenment, that provision should be made in that direction ?—Tes, decidedly. It would be held to be a piece of gross ignorance if any ordinary person were not able to indicate the position and chief peculiarities of any given country, and there ought to be a corresponding state of things with regard to the chief facts in natural and physical science; but nothing, I think, is more absurd than the blunders which persons of even more than ordinary intelligence occasionally fall into from ignorance of these subjects. 5789. Tou have already pointed out that there are some 1,200 subscribers to the different branches of the New* Zealand Institute ? —Tes. 5790. Do these persons take an interest in matters brought before the Institute purely from a utilitarian view ; or is it because of a general interest iv anything that is intellectual? —The bulk of them, of course, from the general interest they take in any intellectual matter; but the smaller number from a direct interest in the particular matter under consideration at the time. 5791. In your opinion how far would persons who have shown in that practical way that they take an interest in such matters, and who contribute towards them, and have already organized museums, be the proper persons to have the immediate control of an expenditure in organizing a system of lectures ? —I am not prepared to answer that question off-hand. I certainly think the matter should be arranged under some system supervised by the central authority. 5792. Would the New Zealand Institute afford that central authority ?—Tes. 5793. Hon. W. Gisborne.] I observe by the Act that the Museum at Wellington is part of tbe Institute, and that the officer who superintends the Museum is paid by the colony. Therefore that is so much more assistance the colony gives the New Zealand Institute. Is not that the case ?—The Museum itself is the property of the colony. 5794. The 2nd clause of the Act says: "It shall bo lawful for the Governor in Council from time to lime to appoint a fit and proper person to superintend and carry out the geological survey of the colony, and also to superintend the formation, establishment, and management of a public museum aud laboratory, to form part of the property of the institution hereinafter mentioned, and if required so to do to perform such other duties as are hereinafter mentioned, w*ith such salary, not exceeding the sum of eight hundred pounds per annum, as to the Governor in Council shall seem meet." Then it is provided by the 4th clause that, "It shall be the duty of the person appointed to superintend and carry out the said survey, and if required by the Governor so to do, from time to time to superintend the formation and establishment of any museum or laboratory intended to be established by any society incorporated w*ith the institution hereinafter mentioned ; but the necessary travelling and other expenses of such person incident to such superintendence shall be borne and defrayed by and out of the funds of the society establishing the said museum or laboratory, aud the same shall as nearly as possible be paid in advance." Now, I understand from those provisions that the Museum at Wellington is part of the property of the Institute. Is that correct ?—lt is evidently the case from tho Act. 5795. Dr. Hector.] Eeferring to clause 10 of the Act, you will observe that it is only permissive for the Government to hand over the Museum. Tou are not aware whether the Museum property has been handed over by the Government to the Institute ?—I am not aware that the Board has been formally placed in possession of it. 5796. As a governor of the Institute, are y*ou aware of any direct control that the Board exercises over the administration of the Museum or of the Laboratory ? —No. 5797. Do they apply any of the funds at their disposal in support of the Museum or Laboratory ? —Not as far as I am aware. 5798. Are you aware how any property which the Institute receives in the w*ay of specimens or books is entered in the books of the Museum ? —Such things are considered to be the property of the Institute. 5799. And entered as deposits in the Museum ?—Tes —available for the public. 5800. Have you any remarks to make with regard to University examinations in your department ? >—Tes, two—one with regard to a regulation laid dow*n by the University, wdiich has not been carried out. The regulation I refer to is the following: —" In each of the above subjects [zoology, botany, geology] tbe candidate will be required to show a practical acquaintance, by means of specimens, with the subject selected, and a candidate in any one of the three latter subjects must possess a competent knowledge of the general principles of biology." The first part of this regulation has never been, brought into force. 5801. Bey. W. J. Habens.] And you think it ought to be enforced ? —Decidedly. 37— H. 1.

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5802. Hon. W. Gisborne.] When was it firct made a regulation ? —ln 1875. The other point I wish to refer to is the desirability of the University undertaking to produce a series of text-books on natural science, specially for New Zealand students. 5803. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it is an advisable thing that text-books should be mentioned in announcing the subjects for examination? —I do not think it necessary; but I certainly think all teachers of natural science in New Zealand ought to be required to pay especial attention to the local fauna and flora. 5804. Then your remark has not so mucli reference to the stating of text-books, but to the preparation of certain text-books which are not in existence ? —Tes. 5505. Do you think it is the duty of the University, as an examining body, to prepare textbooks ? —Under the peculiar conditions existing at the present time, I think it is. We cannot expect private individuals to undertake it—the sale for some years would be so very limited. 5800. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Do many take up natural science for the B.A. examination ? —I could not say the number. We have had three at Wellington College, all of whom have passed in that subject. 5507. Dr. Hector.] Have any of your students taken senior scholarships ? —No ; only one competed. Mr. W. Clark was examined. 5808. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Are you not Treasurer to the Wesleyan Society in "Wellington ? —Tes, in conjunction with tbe resident minister. 5809. Who is the resident minister ?—The Eev. Mr. Kirk, who has recently arrived. 5810. We wished to inquire about the Wesleyan Estate on the Terrace, part of which has been sold. The moneys received are the proceeds of the sale of trust property. Are those, proceeds appropriated in conformity with the original trust, or are they used generally as money of the Wesleyan Society ?—They are kept sacred for educational purposes • there has not been a penny of that money spent for the general purposes of the society. 5811. What has been received from the sale of the land ? —The funds which havo been received from the sale of the land are invested either in mortgages or in property iv other parts of the province. 5812. And used for educational purposes ? —Used sacredly for educational purposes. 5813. In the colony ? —ln Wellington and at Auckland. 5814. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you state to what institutions the income is applied ? —ln Wellington we are maintaining a day-school in Dixon Street, and £100 has been devoted for the last year or two to the Three Kings Institution at Auckland, where Native youths are being trained. The feeling of the trustees was that Native youths should be scut to that institution from the Wellington Frovince ; but we could not procure them here, and they were sent from the Auckland Province. 5815. Hon. W. Gisborne.] But you subscribe money to the Three Kings ?—Tes ; we forward money year by year for that purpose. We are not obliged to send it, and would not do so if it were required in Wellington. 5816. Have you got a copy of the original grant of the land ?—There is, no doubt, a copy in the possession of the trustees. 5817. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you state what sum is out at interest ? —Two thousand eight hundred and forty-nine pounds ton shillings. 5818. What class of security is that invested in?—lt is lent to the different church trustees in connection with the Wesleyan body, and they are paying interest. 5819. What rate of interest do they pay?—lt was invested some eight or nine years ago, when money was more plentiful than at present, at 6 per cent. 5820. Eor what term is it lent ?—lt would be lent, no doubt, subject to a few months' notice. The trustees would not consider it fair to call it in at less than six mouths' notice. The borrowers have the privilege of paying off £100 or £200 at a time. 5821. Have there been any recent repayments ?—Within the last twelve months the Manners Street trustees have paid off £100 or £150. 5822. What laud, with the exception of the school property in Wellington, does the Wesleyan Methodist Society hold in Wellington for educational purposes under an educational trust? —There are three acres that were retained from the sale of the block, which is in addition to the money invested. 5823. Dr. Hector] That is the difference between the seventy-three acres granted and the seventy acres sold in 1865 to the Superintendent?—We had those three acres let on lease for £60 per annum. 5824. What title does the Wesleyan body rely upon for holding these three acres? —I believe they rely on having sold seventy acres out of seventy-three, the three remaining in the original grant. 5825. Do they still hold the original grant ?—I believe so. 5826. Was tho conveyance required by the 3rd clause of "The City Eescrves Act, 1871," duly made ?—That is an error—the sale was only of the seventy acres. 5827. Wherein do you mean the error existed ?—ln'the Schedule of the Act. The whole block was included ; but it was an error. 5825. Then, as this Act stands at present, there is no title to the tbree acres ?—We rely ou the Eegistry Office. _It is shown there that we have only parted with the seventy acres, and that the three acres really remain in our possession. 5829. Be v. W. J. Habeas ] Do you know whether the trustees have ever sought to have what you have just described as a mistake in the Schedule rectified ?—I cannot say. Ido not think there have been any serious < Sorts made. We regard it as a clerical error. 5830. The rent: from this land is devoted to the general purposes of the trust? —Tes. 5831. Do you know if the trustees hold that they are bound to consider the Maori race in the application of tbis money ? —Decidedly.

Professor Kirk.

April 24, 1879.

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5832. And do you know if tliey consider that the trust was intended rather for what may bo called ~ benevolent education than for higher-class education? —For benevolent purposes, I think, decidedly. That is clearly stated in the grant. •3833. When money is contributed by the trustees, of whom you are one, for the purposes of the Three Kings Institution, you understand that tho application of such grant is to the education of the Maoris in that institution, rather than to that of students for the Wesleyan ministry who are also there ? —We consider it is for the Maori students. The trustees would not vote money to that institution, as far as I know their mind, for any other purpose than for tho Maoris. 5831. Are there any Maori children attending the day-school which is held in AVellington ? —No. 5835. Is it the view of the trustees that they are devoting a part of the money to the interests of the Maori race by making grants to the Three Kings Institution, and part of the money to the interests of the other subjects of Her Majesty in connection with Dixon Street School? —Those are the purposes to which the moneys are devoted. 583 G. Hon. W. Gisborne.] If I remember the grant aright, the education was to be limited to persons in "Wellington ?—No ; it would include Natives, I think—even those of the South Pacific. 5837. I understand that the proceeds of the sale are devoted exclusively to the purposes of the trust ? —That is quite correct; there has not been one penny devoted to any other purpose. Mr. James MoKekkow was examined. 5838. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Tou are the Assistant Surveyor-General of New Zealand ?—Yes. 5839. How many years have you been in the service ?—Twenty. 5810. Tou have had great experience in connection with the education of surveyors? —Tes; I was examiner for several years in Otago. 5811. We wanted to know what your views were in connection with the education of surveyors, so far as the public are concerned —whether it could be included in higher education. Would you state how surveyors are qualified now —I mean surveyors both inside and outside the Grovernment service ? —The qualifications we desire are not always possessed by surveyors. We always desire that a surveyor should know the first six books of Euclid ; that lie should also know plane trigonometry, and have facility in computing by plane trigonometry; also, that he should know algebra as far as quadratic equations; and, of course, the use and adjustment of his instrument, and how to rectify it when it gets out of order. We also require considerable facility in map-drawing ; so that the surveyor can make his work legible to the public or to the department. That comprises all we require of what I may call the ordinary surveyor. 5842. Would you explain if there is, by custom or by law, any society which requires any qualification?— There is not. 58-13 Can any man who likes set up as a surveyor without having the slightest qualification ?— He may, but ho cannot do very much work : his plans would not be received by the Land Transfer Department or by the Government departments until he had obtained the authorization of the Surveyor-General's Department; and that would only be given to him when he had manifested what was deemed a competent knowledge of the subjects I have already enumerated ; and—what is perhaps still more important iv the case of men who come to the colony—we are exceedingly particular as to what experience the surveyor has had in the field—what actual service he has undertaken. 5811 That checks, in fact, private employment of unqualified men; because either the Land Transfer Department or your department would refuse to receive their plans?—Tes. 5815. Then what education is necessary on the part of a young man who desires to become a surveyor? —He would require to possess the qualifications I have mentioned. 5816. I mean, is there any examination held before you give the authority ?—There is for young men. We will suppose a young man wants to join the service 5817. Not the service, but wants to become a surveyor ? —We have nothing to do with any person wishing to become a surveyor unless he wants to join our department. 5848. Then there is no Board or institution which would qualify him here?—No; there is no Board that takes cognizance of him when he enters upon his career. But before he can be authorized he must receive the approval of the Survey Department. 5819. But suppose I wanted to be a private surveyor —not to join the Government service—and I had survey work, and said I was competent —that would necessitate that the Survey Department should examine me to see whether I was competent or not? —Tes. 5850. Therefore you have to go into the question of the qualification of private surveyors ? —At that stage, yes. I thought you were referring to the time when the surveyor began his apprenticeship. 5851. I mean, you do not go into the question at first ? —No ; only when he asks for authorization. 5852. Then you examine him ?—Tes. 5853. Tou have to institute an examination of his qualifications ?—Tes. 5851. How do you do that ? —Partly by written examination —written examination in such questions as we may put to him in the six books of Euclid. We generally give him questions in plane trigonometry —just ordinary solutions of triangles; one or two algebraic questions —common equations ; and we try him also in decimals. Besides that, we require him to make an actual survey, wdiich we indicate to him —some survey about Wellington. We tell him to begin at one trig, station, and carry a trial survey over a piece of rough, hilly country to another trig, station. He would have to reduce this work, and show it in a tabulated form. That also enables us to see his style of mapping— whether he can make a presentable map or not. This examination, together with not less than two years' field practice, will entitle him to receive au authority to execute surveys, and his plans will be received at the various Government offices. 5855, Has the department to go through all that trouble without receiving any fee? —Tes. 5856. Therefore the Survey Office really acts as an Examination Board for surveyors generally?— Tes; and a very great trouble it is : the examination takes about three days. 5557. Dr. Hector.] Do you issue a certificate as a result of this examination ?—Tes ; we issue a diploma.

Mr. W. Clarh._

April 24, 1870,

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5858. And has that diploma any weight outside the colony ? —None at all, except that it is a certificate that the bolder has gone through a certain course. 5859. Are similar diplomas issued by other colonies, and do they carry any weight with the Survey Office here? —Very little weight. 5560. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] A man cannot practise as a surveyor without obtaining a certificate from you?—He may subdivide a gentleman's freehold estate, or estimate the amount of growing crops; but he cannot get his survey recorded. 5861. Does the Land Transfer Department require the authorization of the Chief Surveyor ?—lt docs now, and has done so since the survey was placed under our department. 5862. Dr. Hector.] What amount of general preliminary education do you consider desirable for a surveyor to possess ?—He should have gone through six books of Euclid. I look upon that as the technical requirement. 5863. That you have already mentioned ? —Three years under the tuition and guidance of a thoroughly competent surveyor. 5864. That again is technical. T mean general education, apart from his duties as a surveyor?— An ordinary school education. It does not make a man a bit better surveyor if he is a good classical scholar; nor do I think a knowledge of history has any effect, except, of course, that an intelligent man is always better than one who has not that advantage. 5865. You have found, then, in practice that persons of educated intelligence make the better surveyors?— Those who possess a mathematical education are invariably the best surveyors. 5866. And you consider that a surveyor who, in the course of a survey, may be called upon to lay off roads, classify country, and probably set aside reserves, should not have a certain amount of scientific knowledge other than mathematical ? —Tes, I think so. 5867. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In making an appointment to special work do you find it necessary to have regard to a man's qualifications outside those of a mathematical kind ? —ln appointing a Chief Surveyor to any district, we do not probably select the best arithmetician in the service. AYe appoint a gentleman who has tact, and would be a good administrator, and who would have command of his temper, and possess other characteristics tbat would insure for him respect. It is difficult to describe all the elements that enter into one's consideration; but the officer is selected from considerations apart from his mathematical knowledge. When you were speaking before about tbe qualifications of a surveyor I was thinking more of the mere science of measurement; but with regard to the classifying of land and the reporting on land, which have since been referred to, a surveyor for those purposes would be better to have a knowledge of surface geology, of farming, and it would be difficult to say what subject it would not be well for him to know. 5868. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Is there any institution in England, Scotland, or elsewhere, which requires qualifications on the part of surveyors, or which gives a certificate that is recognized here ?—No. 5569. Dr. Hector.] There is nothing analogous to the Institute of Civil Engineers?— No. You can easily see why that is the case. At Home, surveying is much less important than it is in the colonies. Estates are all divided there, and things go on very much the same from generation to generation. The ordinary surveyors could not perform a trigonometrical survey, or survey a large area of country ; they are men who simply lay off small blocks of ground for people to build houses upon, and mere land measurers. 5570. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Would a member of the Institute of Engineers be recognized by you as a qualified surveyor ? —No ; we are very particular on that point. Our experience is that engineers, as a rule, are very poor surveyors indeed. Even very eminent engineers are very poor surveyors. There is a sort of idea amongst engineers that they are a very superior class to the surveyors ; and this idea—which is a mere piece of conceit—prevents them from taking that care and giving that attention to minute measurements which is necessary to make them good surveyors. Their surveying I would call fragmentary. In taking the levels for a bridge, or even for a railway-line, an engineer considers a few links more or less in a short distance of very little consequence ; whereas a surveyor's work is all governed by trigonometrical distances, and he has to fix so many points over a diversified surface, which points have to be mapped as though this surface were level, and his skill is required to overcome all the inequalities of the surface, and to bring his work all in, so that it will close within eight links to the mile. In this rough country, with all tho difficulties of an uneven surface, surveying requires continual plodding carefulness, and accuracy can only be obtained after several years' constant experience. 5871. Dr. Hector.] Could you describe tho examination that cadets are expected to pass before entering the Survey Department ? —We are just bringing out the second edition of the survey instructions, which are as follows : " The candidate for apprenticeship must exhibit a satisfactory certificate from his schoolmaster ; also a certificate of his having passed the junior examination under ' The Civil Service Act, 1866.' He must be over sixteen and under twenty-five years of age. Besides the above, a satisfactory departmental inquiry, as to good eyesight for observing, a healthy constitution, a legible hand, and a tasto for drawing, is necessary to qualify. . . During apprenticeship, which extends over three years —one in office and two in the field—the senior examination under the Civil Service Act must be passed ; otherwise no future engagement nor promotion is guaranteed. If this be passed, it will also be necessary to undergo a departmental inquiry as to knowledge of the first six books of Euclid, and use and adjustment of the theodolite, and aptness in map-drawing. A certificate of good conduct and competence from a Crown Lands Surveyor must also be shown. These requirements being complied with qualify for promotion into the grade of actual or section surveyor. In order to obtain employment in the geographical or standard branch a knowledge of spherical trigonometry and algebra will be necessary; the use and adjustment of sextant, alt-azimuth, and transit instruments; also of practical astronomy, particularly in reference to latitude, longitude, and true meridian." 5872. Is there any further examination beyond what you have specified?— No. 5873. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does promotion depend on the judgment tbe department is able to form of a man's ability in tbe course of years ?—Yes ; it is regulated by seniority to a great extent. 5874. Dr. Hector.] What facilities do you consider exist in the colony at the present time for

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affording tiie special education required to pass these examinations? —I think the facilities are very great indeed. In each of the large towns there aro ample facilities for persons to qualify for surveyors. In Ota^o —the place with which I am best acquainted —there has been, since the High School and the University in Dunedin have been fairly started, a marked increase in the number of eligible candidates for employment as surveyors ; and not only an increase in the number, which, of course, may be largely owing to the increase of population, but a marked improvement in the style of the candidates. 5875. Does your answer apply to facilities for obtaining a knowledge of higher mathematics ? —Tes. In my judgment, a student in Dunedin at present can be as fully educated in the science of mathematics as one can be at Glasgow. 5876. Do you think that in other parts of the colony besides Dunedin the educational institutions are sufficient to afford the education required by surveyors in the highest branches ?—I believe they are in all the principal towns, if supplemented by private study. 5877. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Or by such instruction as may be imparted by the surveyor to whom the young man might be articled ? —Yes; and I think that would be better. 587_. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you think surveying should be made a close profession, like medicine or law ? —Yes, if it were practicable to do so ; but I do not think it is practicable. 5879. Do you think some body could be appointed in connection with the University which should give recognized certificates of competency in surveying and engineering?— That is practicable, I think, and would bo very desirable ; but I see considerable difficulties in working it. 5880. Is the present system satisfactory, which allows the qualifications for private surveying to be regulated really by the Survey Department, and which puts the Government department to all that trouble and expense ?—Yes ; it is fairly satisfactory. 5881. The examinations at present are conducted in private ?—Yes. 5882. Would it not be better to have a recognized body, whose proceedings would be above all suspicion of favouritism ?—I think such a body as you indicate would have this effect: it would be very apt sometimes to set aside competent surveyors whom it would be desirable to admit. After a man has reached a certain time of life he is not very glib at figures or formulae. This would probably be the case, for instance, in regard to man}* persons coming from the other colonies. A gentleman arrived from Adelaide to-day who is anxious to become an authorized surveyor. From the conversation I had with him, I have no doubt he is a competent man ; and yet it is quite likely that if he had to undergo a writteii examination, aud answer a lot of formal questions, he would fail, although he might be a very excellent surveyor. 5883. And you think he would be passed by your department?— Yes; because where you have discretion you can judge, and say, "Well, I know quite well this man will be a good surveyor, with a little oversight, and probably without attention or oversight; " at the same time you may bo thoroughly convinced that he would entirely fail if you put a lot of figures and trigonometrical formula) before him. 5884. You would judge him mostly by the practical work which you would set him ?—Yes. 5885. I suppose an examining body would do the same ? —lf they did, it would be fairer and more satisfactory. 1 may mention that when the present Survey Department was instituted, this question of examining surveyors was very carefully considered, and the first idea was to have a Central Board at Wellington, who would examine all surveyors; but it was seen that the plan would not be workable, because if a surveyor, say at Invercargill, wished to pass, he would have to travel all the way up to Wellington to be examined. 5886. What means have you now of preventing that ? —Wo make each Chief Surveyor an examiner, and he conducts the examination of persons who wish to become surveyors, and has a form with headings under which he enters the results of the examination. His certificate comes up to the Surveyor-General, who, iE he approves, signs it, aud the applicant is placed on the list. If the Surveyor-General disapproves, the candidate has to come up again. Tho examining surveyor sends a general representation of his opinion of the candidate. I may say that in examining surveyors who are somewhat advanced in life, and especially those who come from other colonies, we are very careful not to put any catch-questions. The examination is very simple —so simple that if a man cannot pass it, you have no hesitation in saying that he is not fit to be a surveyor. But the main point in the case of all such applications is the question, What is your experience ? AVhere have you surveyed? Have you been under any system at all, and, if so, what system? That is the main point iv regard to authorizing surveyors from outside. 5887. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that the machinery at present is so organized that those who are more competent as surveyors have a greater advantage in obtaining employment than those who are less competent ? —Certainly. But for the last two years ths working surveyors have had the ball at their feet. We could not get enough men. 5888. What number of surveyors do you thiuk are employed iv New Zealaud at the present time, both in the Government service and in private practice? —There are about 120 employed in the Government service; but I have never thought about the number of private surveyors. I should say, however, at a guess, about an equal number. 5889. Is there much work done by private surveyors under contract ? —Yes; a very considerable amount. 5890. Then surveying is a large opening for employment in the colony? —Yes; I look upon it as one of the most important openings for the young men of the colony —the surveying and engineering department; and it always will be a very extensive field for them, because the Counties and Road Boards all require the services of surveyors —surveyors who know a little engineering. I may mention that there is a tendency on the part of surveyors to become engineers—that is to say, men who can lay off road-works, and so forth; the reason being that the surveying requires that a man should be so much away from home that when he becomes married he gets tired of it; and it is very laborious to compute the work. It takes a man all the day and a great deal of the night to keep up with it. If a man is slow at computation, it is very trying work. Requiring tho work to be tabulated, as we now do, and the error to be shown on the triangulation, and so forth, has had the effect of driving

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a number of surveyors out of the service—men who havo been accustomed only to scale their work in a sort of rough-and-ready way. 5891. You are aware that special Chairs have been established in somo Universities for the education of engineers and of mining surveyors ?—I am aware, from the newspapers, that there is such a Chair iv the Otago University, and I know that a similar Chair exists in other Universities, and at Glasgow. 5892. Is there anything, in your opinion, sufficiently special in the direction which should be given to the studies of a young surveyor to warrant the establishment of a Chair specially for that purpose? —I think not. Ko far as the technical aud scientific part of his education is concerned, I should think that attendance at a course of mathematics and of natural philosophy would equip a surveyor exceedingly well; and I would like to add to that a course of ono year at geology; and a few* months in the laboratory, to acquire a knowledge of mineral substances aud of their component parts, and action of acids, and so on, would be exceedingly useful. 5893. How far would that apply to engineers ?—lt would apply much more to engineers. 5891. You think there is less necessity for a special Chair of engineering than for one of surveying? —No; Ido not say that. I meant to say that a Chair of mathematics and a Chair of natural philosophy would afford a very good training to make a thorough surveyor, and also a thorough engineer. I had an opportunity of observing the late Professor Raukine's class at Glasgow. It was composed of only eight or ten students, aud the Professor rattled oil' the forniuhß on tho board. I do not think it had a great bearing on civil engineering. 5895. You are now talking of tho special lectures called the Eugineering Lectures, not the lectures on applied mechanics?— Yes. 5596. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that an efficient and enthusiastic master of a primary school could do much towards laying the foundation of the knowledge which a boy would afterwards require for surveying ? —Yes, very much —by taking the boys out to the fields ou holidays, and showing the practical application of the principles he teaches in the class-room. One or two lessons in the field will fix the principles in a boy's mind in a way that no amount of diagrams on a blackboard ever can. 5597. What kind of illustrations, in that case, would you think he should use ?—I would havo him measure a field —measure it partly by theodolite, partly by chain, and altogether by chain, and show the boys tho different degrees of accuracy, and how the one system closed upon the other. I would also have him measure a triangle by a base, and tbe Other two sides by computation, and then measure on tho ground the sides that were computed ; and the boys who had the slightest mathematical taste would be. delignted to see how near the computed and measured distances would agree. I remember in my own case how delighted I was when I could measure the distance to the steeple of a village church, about; three miles off, without going near it. 5898. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Would it not be a good thing to encourage and stereotype that education by having a higher branch institution which would give degrees of competency in tho science of surveying—an institution, we will say, in connection with higher education ? Do you think that might be discouraging to people who have been educated and who have grown up ? —No, I do not look at it in that light; but lam afraid you could not concentrate all the aspirants to the profession of surveying or engineering iv one place in New Zealand. 5.99. But there might be colleges in which there would be a Chair for surveying and engineering, and in which surveyors could take a certificate of competency which would be recognized throughout New Zealand, and perhaps outside the colony ? —lt would be an excellent start for a surveyor. But it would be utterly impossible in any college to fully equip a surveyor —that is to say, he could not leave the college and immediately enter into the practice of surveying. There is a great deal of routine and other work to be learnt in the office, aud there is a great deal of experience to be obtained. Surveying is not only a science, but an art. It is like making a pair of shoes. You may be very learned, and be able to talk and write a good deal about how to do it, but still you could not make a pair of shoes. It is the same in surveying. There must be practice in the field. 5900. Dr. Hector.] That would apply to medicine, law, or any other profession ?—Yes. In Victoria there is a regular Board of Examining Surveyors, composed of the principal scientific men there. I think Mr. iSkene, tbe Surveyor-General, Mr. Couchman, the head of the Mining Department, and one or two gentlemen connected with the University, are the members of the Board. But there is this great difference between Victoria and New Zealand: Victoria all concentrates in Melbourne, whereas in JNew Zealand we have no particular centre. 5901. Hon. W. Gisborne.] But under the present system in New Zealand there is practically the same thing, only the examiners are officers of the department, who have to decide whether or not the candidate is qualified to act as a surveyor; because it is from their report that the Surveyor-General has to judge—he has no actual knowledge of tho candidate or his capabilities, and judges from the report of his officer? —Just so. 5902. Therefore there is an irregular and irresponsible way of testing whether a surveyor is qualified or not. Would it not be preferable to have a plan recognized by the State, open to ail, and under definite regulations, and in connection with institutions for higher education ? —lt would be better if you could secure that what I may call the discretionary practical part should be associated with the mere technical knowledge. 5903. But I suppose there would be no difficulty about that: A body examining a surveyor might easily set him some practical work to do, just as well as your own officers might ?—lt might be done. We are also very careful, before authorizing a surveyor, to be satisfied as to his personal probity and integrity; because a surveyor, if dishonest, may work an immense amount of mischief, which may not be discovered for years. 5901. Would you refuse a certificate if you felt the candidate was not of a good character?—We are very much troubled with drunkards, for instance —men who can pass the examination, but who get drunk and go on the spree. 5905. Such a person would be a most dangerous man. Would you refuse his certificate ?—Yes.

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590 G. Dr. Hector.] Have you any means of cancelling certificates after they are once issued?— Yes. 5907. How is that done ? —lf a surveyor sent in very inaccurate plans to the Land Transfer Office we would cancel his certificate; but we would not take that step until we had been very sorely provoked. 5908. Hon. W. Gisborne.] You could not do so because a man became a bad character—a druiikard ?—No, not on moral grounds; only in case his work was inaccurate. 5909. Dr. Hector.] Eeferring to the course of instruction laid down in the Universities at Home for engineering and surveying, would such a course of instruction, followed by examination and the granting of certificates, if undertaken by the University, be of material advantage in securing a supply of competent surveyors ?—lt would, decidedly. 5910. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you recognize such a certificate from Home? —We recognize it as proof of an excellent preliminary training; and the possession of such a certificate would be a very good introduction for a young man; but we would not on the strength of it at once recommend the holder to an appointment as a surveyor. 5911. You would subject him to examination ?—We would hardly do that, because we would accept a diploma from the Dublin University, for instance, as genuine; but we would simply say to the candidate, "You have certainly gone through an excellent course, but you do not possess any practical knowledge. You have been broken in, but you require to go through some service here —to go with some authorized surveyor for a year or eighteen months ; and then, after you have had experience of surveying over this rough country, and understand the requirements in regard to mapping and the scales, and have acquired a slight knowledge of tho land system of New Zealaud, we shall authorize you." 5912. Dr. Hector.] Then I understand that no certificate that could be granted by the University of New Zealand would obviate the necessity of still requiring a certificate from the Surveyor-General as to field competency ?—Precisely so. His Honor Mr. Justice ll_cn__o_*D examined. 5913. Hon. W. Gisborne.] You are a Judge of the Supreme Court ? —Yes. 591_. We wish to know if you have any observations to make on the question of law examinations in connection with the New Zealand University—whether you could shortly state what tho present system is, and suggest anything which would improve it in connection with higher or University education ? —1 am not aware whether there is any Chair of law or jurisprudence in the colony. 59.15. I will read the regulation passed by the Senate of the New Zealand University at its last session, amending regulation specifying terms to be kept and examinations to be passed for obtaining the degrees of Bachelor and Doctor of Laws. It is as follows :— I. '• Candidates for the degree of Bachelor of Laws shall, subsequently to their matriculation, complete a term of not less than four years. 11. <: Candidates for the degree of Bachelor of Laws shall pass three University examinations— one at the end of their second or any subsequent year, the subjects of which shall be— (1) Latiu Language and Literature, (2) English Language and Literature, (3) Jurisprudence and Constitutional History; the second examination at the end of their third or any subsequent year, the subjects of which shall be —(1) Eoman Law ; (2) English Law on (a) Personal Eights, (_) Eights of Property, (c) Eights in Private Eelations ; the third examination at the end of their fourth or any subsequent year, the subjects of which shall be —(1) International Law*; (2) English Law on (a) Public Eights, (.) Wrongs (Civil aud Criminal). 111. " The first examination prescribed in Section 11. shall be tho same as for the B.A. degree. IV. " Candidates for the degree of Bachelor of Laws, who shall have attained the degree of B.A. or M.A., either after examination or ad eundem, may proceed to the degree of Bachelor of Laws by passing an examination in jurisprudence and constitutional history, aud by passing the second and third examinations prescribed in Section 11. ; provided that any such graduate in arts may, at his option, take the second and third examinations together ; and provided further that any such graduate in arts who shall produce satisfactory evidence of having already in his arts course passed the examination in jurisprudence and constitutional history prescribed by the University of New Zealand, or by any University recognized thereby, shall be excused by the Chancellor from examination in one or both of those subjects. V. " The subjects of examination for the degree of Doctor of Laws shall be —(1) Eoman Law, (2) Jurisprudence, (3) The Principles of Legislation. Tl. " Candidates for the examination for the degree of Doctor of Laws shall be Bachelors of Laws of at least two years' standing." That is with regard to degrees. We want to know now what qualifies for the law ?—The actual examination iv law is conducted by the Judges. Under the new regulaiions they appoint other examiners than themselves in general knowledge. The latter is a very easy examination ; but that in law is conducted by the Judges, and has two grades. There is an easier examination which qualifies the caudidate for admission as a solicitor, aiid a more difficult one which enables him to enter as a barrister. But the Commission is no doubt aware that at present there is really no practical distinction between the two branches of the profession ; because any person who has been admitted as a solicitor has a right to place his name on the roll of barristers and to practise in that branch of the profession, and ■vice versa. 5910. You say thero are two examinations, and that if a person passes the easier examination, he can practise as a barrister? — Yes ; only there is a premium upon passing the more difficult examination, because only three years are required, although the service differs somewhat in character. Candid dates for the easier examination must show that they have been bound under contract to a solicitor as an articled clerk, and have served five years. Those who go in for the banister's examination need

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■ only have read law for three years as pupils. That was intended to assimilate ours to the English system. It may seem anomalous, but the more difficult examination is passed by men whose term ot* service, or, at least, of legal study, has been shorter. They are, however, supposed to be, and, in fact, generally are, persons who have received a higher education. They do not attempt the higher examination in law unless they have received a liberal education. 5917. How many years has the Eegistrar or the Deputy Eegistrar of the Supreme Court to serve, before being admitted ?—Three years. 5918. And does he submit to the higher examination ? —lf he chooses to present himself. My impression is, that he can pass as a solicitor after three years ; but I am not quite sure. 5919. What is the general knowledge examination? —the senior Civil Service examination? —It is proposed to make it exactly equal to that. I am not able to say whether it is precisely the same or not. 5920. Dr. Hector.] By whom is it conducted? —Our present mathematical examiner is the Eev. Mr. Harvey, who is also, I think, one of the mathematical examiners for the Civil Service examinations. I think Mr. Gammell is taking it this time, Mr. Harvey being absent Irom the colony. There are halfyearly examinations. I had nothing to do with the last one. In fact, since my return to the colony I have had nothing at all to do with the examinations in general knowledge, except to look over a few papers when it was considered doubtful whether the candidate should pass or not. 5921. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are the examiners you have named appointed for Wellington, or for the whole colony ?—Eor the whole colony. Papers are sent simultaneously. 5922. Are the examinations carried on at different periods from the Civil Service examinations ?— Yes; although I see not tho slightest reason why we should havo so many examinations. It is very desirable, in my opinion, that they should be consolidated ; and I am not aware of any reason why either the junior or the senior Civil Service examination should not be taken as the general knowledge examination for candidates for the law. 5923. Dr. Hector.] Special subjects required by the Judges could be introduced into the examination as they are in other cases?-—Yes. Ido not see what special subjects would be required. We are rather particular about English constitutional history. That is the ouly special subject that I can recollect. 5924. Hon. W. Gisborne.] What would be the effect of a person taking a degree of Bachelor of Laws or Doctor of Laws in the University ? —He would be exonerated from any examination in general knowledge. 5925. In England can a person qualify himself for the law in a University?—No; he would have to keep terms at the Inns of Court as well. A degree in law would only abridge his time. I suppose it would exempt him from the new examinations which have been instituted since I left England. No doubt a degree in laws would do that; but the difference would only be, that instead of being five years on the books of the Inns of Court he would be three years. But the Inns of Court do not allow a graduate in laws to enter forthwith without keeping his terms. 592 G. Is there a Chair at the University in England which would enable a person to enter the profession of the law without taking a degree ? Must he first take a degree ? —No ; a barrister need not take a degree. The great majority of barristers in England have not taken any degree in laws. 5927. Do you think that the examination of caudidates for the law* in New Zealand could with advantage to the public interests be transferred to the University?— Not wholly—not at present. 5928. Would you state with what qualifications ? —The examination in jurisprudence, and in law as a science, might bo wholly transferred to the University ; but there would remain a necessary examination in law as a practical art, which could not be committed to the University. 5929. Would you apply that examination to a person who took a degree of Bachelor or Doctor of Laws ? —I think he should undergo some practical examination by the Supreme Court. I should not like to put my own business into the hands of any gentleman, however distinguished a graduate in jurisprudence, who had never been inside a lawyer's office. I have known men who have been distinguished at the University, but who were never in a lawyer's office, and who have been ignorant of things which a boy who swept out the office could havo told them. A man who is in a lawyer's office learns the work, but does not know how, and probably never knew there was anything to learn —he learns it in the course of practical business ; but I apprehend that in a University he could not learn it. 5930. That raises another question. Would you superadd to the University education a certain, time to bo passed in a lawyer's office before a candidate was qualified?—-I do not know that I would make it an absolute condition. I should be satisfied myself if the examination could be passed. I think an examination paper prepared by a practical man would be a sufficient test. 5931. Dr. Hector.] Would that apply equally to barristers and solicitors if the two branches of the profession were separated ? —I thiuk it would. A barrister cannot dispense with practical knowledge even when the two branches are separated; and Ido not expect to see them separated in my time. The feeling of the profession would be strongly against it. It is an impossible thing at present, in my judgment. 5932. Do you think the degrees in law which will be granted by the New Zealand University will be of any real advantage to practitioners?—l feel unable to say. This is certain : that modern English law is becoming more and more scientific. There can be no doubt that the study of comparative jurisprudence is much more pursued than it was ; and we are getting rid very fast of our merely national law —of the old feudal real property law in oue branch, and of the old rules of pleading in the other—■ and are so rationalizing our whole system that the study of law as a science has become more and more necessary, and it will tell more than it has ever done before. 5933. Js there any way in which holders of degrees in law would have precedence or advantage over practitioners who did not hold degrees?— That could be considered. I think that the taking of degrees iv law ought to be encouraged ; but I am not prepared to say that it ought to be made a condition of admission to the Bar. I think we are not prepared for that. But everything should be done to encourage young men in the preliminary study of jurisprudence.

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593_. Hon. W. Gisborne.] I suppose there is no official way of encouraging degrees. They presuppose a higher status in the knowledge of law, and the public encourage them by going to the holders? —They could be encouraged to a certain extent by the Judges admitting the studies pursued at the University as preparatory. lam entirely in favour of doing that, so far as regards tho scientific study of law j but I still think some practical acquaintance with the profession should be required, because these examinations are for the protection of the public. 593.1. What is the system of admitting solicitors in England ? —The examinations are under the control of the Incorporated Law Society of Solicitors. I do not know who really prepare the examination papers ; but the plan used to be, I think, for a number of the leading solicitors to form by themselves a body of examiners, and to prepare the papers. The Incorporated Law Society is a voluntary association of solicitors. 593 G. But I suppose a person could not practise as a solicitor without some recognition by the Society? —There is noway of becoming a solicitor except by passing the Incorporated Law Society's examination. It is a very easy one, apparently; I have known men who have passed it fail here. 5937. Can a barrister in England practise as a solicitor if he chooses ? —Certainly not. 5938. He would have to go through another examination ?—Tes; he would have to be articled. The two branches are quite distinct. 5939. And he could not practise both ? —No. It is against the etiquette of the Bar in England to take instructions directly from a client, except in regard to the drawing of a will. 5940. We wish to ask you some general questions with regard to University education. Tou are a member of the Senate of the New Zealand University ? —Tes. 5941. We would like you to state whether, in your opinion, that institution, as at present constituted, has assumed the form best suited to the requirements of the colony ; and, if not, in what way you think it might be improved ? Tou know what the State has done for primary education; you know the condition of secondary education —there have been private endowments, assisted by public endowments and money, which havo maintained secondary education; and you also know what the present position of the New Zealand University is. Our object, as I understand it, is to put aside primary education, and place the two other grades of education on such a footing that they will develop primary education to the highest growth, and also put higher University education and secondary education on such a footing that a boy in a primary school may, if he has the ability, have every assistance in rising up to the top rung of the educational ladder. That is the general object; and we should very much like to have your opinion on the subject ? —My general impression is, that in taking the shape of a mere examining body the University has assumed the only shape which is possible at present. That is the inclination of my opinion. Ido not think we should find it practicable to undertake the function of teaching. We do, I believe, to some small extent; but that is anomalous. 5942. Dr. Hector.] Do you think the equipment of the affiliated colleges is at the present time equal and sufficient in all parts of the colony? —They appear to me to be very unequally equipped. But the. quality of the product must always depend on the material as well as upon the tools that are employed in manufacturing it. I believe there are very efficient staffs of professors at Christchurch and Dunedin ; but it seems to me that they have not got students to work up. It is possible that institutions far inferior to them in the number of their professors, or in the completeness of their preparations for giving higher education, may turn out a larger proportionate number of students who are able to take a degree, simply because there is material to operate upon. 5943. How far do you think it might be duo to the closer relation which the less well-equipped institutions have to the primary schools than the better equipped colleges, which aro completely separated from the secondary schools ? —-It must be a disadvantage to be completely separated from the secondary schools. In Nelson, where the institution is on a very small scale, I think its efficiency has been proportionately very great. There they very early adopted a plan of giving exhibitions to pupils who distinguished themselves in the common schools. 5944. Do you think that Nelson College —taking that as an instance —gives a sufficiently high standard of education to be called a college education in any sense ? —No, I do not. But lam inclined to think that the circumstances of New Zealand will require the New Zealand University to do without affiliation, aud to dispense with the present requirement as to keeping terms at an affiliated institution, and that we shall havo to adopt the plan, which the London University has fallen back upon, of allowing any one to come up for examination, and of letting the sole test be the ability to pass tho examination. 5945. Admitting that, do you think it would be the duty of the State to do anything towards equalizing the advantages for obtaining a University education, so as to fit for examination in different parts of the colony ?—I should say it would be politically fair; but that is my individual opinion. I do not understand on what principle of equity the institutions in certain provinces are rolling in wealth, whilst others are quite pauperized. I think it is a vain expectation that the youth of the colony will be sent from one extremity to the other to receive the higher education at that distant part of the colony. Parents who are prepared to send their children away from home would rather send them to the mother-country than to a distant part of the colony. Ido not think, therefore, that it is practicable to attract the youth of the colony to a single corner of New Zealand to receive higher education there. That being so, Ido not think it is fair to lavish resources upon a few institutions. 594 G. Do you think that giving a higher education, amounting to a University education, culminating in a degree, is of such importance as to warrant a largo expenditure for its attainment, considerino* the number who would come forward for such degrees in the colony —a large expenditure in various places ? —I do not think we are warranted in maintaining very expensive establishments. If we were completely equipped, we should require as many professors and as many chairs as there are at Universities in European capitals. 5947. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Tou mentioned the London University, and its system of giving decrees to any one who comes up and cau pass the examination. Do you think the application of that system in this colony would be preferable to that of Cambridge or Oxford, where there are a number 38— H. 1.

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of colleges which constitute a University, and which combine the teaching and examining power together ? —I think it is the only practicable system; it is not because I think it better. I quite recognize the advantage of requiring the candidate not only to pass an examination, but to show that he has gone through a certain course of training. I fully recognize that; for, after all, the examination test is a very poor one, and other influences to which a young man is subjected during his University course tend to form his mind and character. I only dispense with that because Ido not think we can apply it. I think at present the keeping of terms is illusory. 5948. Could a plan work something like this: having a college at each of the principal centres of population —say, Dunedin, Christchurch, Wellington, and Auckland — and having those colleges combined into a New Zealand University, just like the colleges at Cambridge or Oxford, which University should give degrees after examination, while the colleges would teach at the different places ?—Tho expense of such an establishment, I should think, would render it impossible. It is not that I do not think it desirable. 5949. Dr. Hector.] In what does your conception of such an arrangement as that mentioned by Mr. Gisborne differ from the present New Zealand University ? —ln no wise, except that it is quite certain that many of the affiliated institutions in New Zealand do not possess the necessary equipment. That is the only difference; and, if tho New Zealand University maintains its present rule, I do not see any hope of a change in that respect. It would occasion great heartburning to reject some of the institutions that have presented themselves. The religious element comes in a little, because amongst these affiliated bodies there will always be some maintained by particular religious denominations, as in the case of the London University; and it is a very invidious thing to deny affiliation to one of these religious seminaries : at the same time they are very often not at all fully equipped for giving higher education. The University of London had a number of these bodies affiliated, and I suppose it felt the difficulty of enforcing sufficient equipment. 5950. It has no body affiliated to it now ? —No ; but it did have affiliated to it a number of dissenting and Eoman Catholic seminaries ; aud I dare say that in many of these the provision for teaching was exceedingly imperfect. To reject one of these bodies would he felt to be a very invidious thing, and they have been let in, in fact. It is also felt as an indignity by the better-equipped bodies that they are put upon the same level with these other institutions. The better way is, I think, to do away with the level altogether, and see who can prepare most successful candidates for the degree; that is the only test. But I should take a man from private tuition. I think that is our necessity at present. Ido not think it is wholly desirable, but Ido not see anything else practicable.

April 24, 1879.

leiday, 25th Apeil, 1879. Present : Dr. Hector (in the chair). Hon. W. Gisborne. Eev. W. E. Mulgan. Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary). Mr. S. H. Cox was sworn and examined. 5951. Dr. Hector.] Tou are the Assistant Geologist for the New Zealand Government ? —Tes. 5952. How did you obtain your appointment ? —I was appointed by Professor Eamsay, DirectorGeneral of the Geological Society at Home, who was commissioned by the New Zealand Government to select an Assistant Geologist. 5953. Tou are an Associate of the Society of Engineers, and a Eellow of the Chemical Society?— Tes. 5954. Tou had received special education fitting you for the duties of an Assistant Geologist ?— Tes; I took certificates in the School of Mines, Jerinyn Street, London. 5955. Is that the usual way in which men are appointed to the Geological Survey in Great Britain ? —Tes; when there are any vacancies the selections are made from the students at the School of __ines. 5956. Could you give the Commission some account of what preliminary education you had before you commenced your special studies at the School of Mines? —I was at Christ's Hospital, where I went through the ordinary course of Latin and Greek, and mathematics up to the binomial theorem. 5957. When did you leave Christ's Hospital ? —At the age of fifteen. After that I was apprenticed to engineering for six years. 5958. During that time did you continue your studies ? —Tes; in the evenings. 5659. Bey. W. J. Habens.] During the time that you were apprenticed to an engineer did you receive technical instruction from him ?—No; 1 was working in the shops, and afterwards in the office. 5960. Dr. Hector.] Did you go up for any examination during that time ? —-Tes ; I went up for four or five science and art examinations each year. 5961. Did you get certificates? —Tes. 5962. How long were your hours of practical work in engineering ? —From six to six. 5963. And besides that you found time to prosecute your studies for these examinations ?—Tes ; I used to study in the evening. 5961. What was the nature of the examinations you passed in science and art ? —I passed in mathematics, applied mechanics, natural philosophy, and chemistry. 5965. Had you the benefit of private tuition in studying those subjects ? —I had in chemistry. I attended evening classes. 5966. Tou then went to the School of Mines? —I was at Messrs. Vickers and Co.'s Steel Works for two years, and then went to the School of Mines. 5967. How long did you study there ?—Two years. 5968. In what subjects did you get certificates ?—ln chemistry, physics, mechanical drawing, geology, mining, mineralogy, and applied mechanics.

Mr. S. H. Cox.

April 25, 1879.

299

H.—l

5969. "Were you engaged in business of any kind while you were at; the School of Mines ?—I used to do engineering, drawing, teach pupils, and do other things. 5970. Rev. W. J. Sabens.] Did you regard the two years at the School of Mines as forming a proper step towards the completion of your education as an engineer?— Yes; I was preparing for mining engineering, and under those circumstances I did. 5971. As a special qualification —that is to say, for a special department of engineering ? —Tes. 5972. Dr. Hector.l You consider that the whole of your education from the time you left school, including the practice and the attendance at classes, was continuous ?—Tes. 5973. Do you think, from your experience, that it is possible for persons engaged in business to prosecute their studies in technical science in a regular manner, and with success? —Certainly; if there are evening classes. 5974. And without taxing their energies too much ?—I do not think it taxes their energies much more than spending their evenings in any other way. 5975. Eev. TV. J. Sabens.] When you were working for two years at the School of Mines, was the greater part of your time devoted to study ?—Tes. For about a year and a-half I was working in the laboratories all day, and doing other work at night. 597(5. Dr. Hector.~\ Could you give us some account of the course of study at the School of Mines ?—lt is divided into three-year courses. The course in the first and second year everybody has to take up. The first year's course when I was there consisted of chemistry, physics, and mechanical drawing. 5977. How many hours, in all, were devoted to these three subjects ? —On an average, there was a lecture of an hour's duration every day, and /the whole of the remaining time was devoted to the chemical laboratory. 5978. Eev. W. J. Sabens.] "When you say " generally one lecture a day," do yo\i mean one lecture in each subject, or one lecture in some one of the subjects ? —One lecture in some one of the subjects. 5979. Dr. Sector.'] "What examinations were there during the first year ? —At the end of the term there were examinations in the three subjects I have mentioned, but there were none during the course. The examinations extended over the last two months of the year. Each examination only lasted one day, but there were intervals between them during which the students had au opportunity of devoting special attention to the particular subject of the next examination. 5980. What was the course of study in the second year?— Mineralogy, applied mechanics, and geology. lam not quite certain whether geology came in the second or the third year, but I think in the second. There was no laboratory course in the second year. 5981. "What was the usual course prescribed in the third year? —In the third year there were three courses —for the mining, geological, and metallurgical associateships. Tou could take whichever of those branches you chose, or all of them. 5982. "What did the geological include ? —Geology and palaeontology; no laboratory work. The mining branch included mining, geology, and metallurgy, laboratory work, and assaying; and the metallurgical included metallurgical lectures and the metallurgical laboratory. 5983. Do you think that evening classes leading up to such a course of study would be of use to those sections of the community who are not likely to be able to avail themselves of a University course? —I certainly think so. I think they could pass most of the examinations through the means of evening classes. They could not very well obtain the practical experience in a laboratory, although they could get a certain amount. 5984. Could practical work in a laboratory not be taken as part of a course of evening lectures ? ■ —Tes, but it would have to extend over a considerable period before the requisite amount of knowledge was acquired. 5985. Eev. TV. J. Sabens^] Is the practical work done in the laboratory of such au institution as the School of Mines principally work of real commercial or scientific value, or work made, as it were, for the students for the sake of giving them examples and illustrations? —It is generally work given for practice. First of all, the students have to go through the ordinary experiments in making oxygen, hydrogen, &c.; then they go in for qualitative analysis, taking various groups of salts separately; then solutions are made up for them to analyse ; and afterwards they get ores given to them : finally, they get quantitative work for three months, if they are sufficiently advanced with the previous work ; if they are not, they do not pass the examination. 5986. Dr Hector.'] In such a course of study would specimens such as are to be found in the museums here be necessary and sufficient? —I think so. 5987. I mean such as exist in the colony already?— Speaking of the colonial laboratory in "Wellington, I should say that for chemical lectures more apparatus would be required. 5988. Tou mean apparatus for the use of the students ? —No ; I mean for lecture purposes. The students generally find their own apparatus. 5959. What would be the probable cost of a complete set of apparatus requisite for a course of lectures in chemistry of the kind you contemplate? —About £200 or £300. 5990. Eev. TV. J. Sabens.] Supposing it were extended so as to meet the requirements of a physical laboratory, as well as a chemical ? —There would have to be a considerable expenditure ; I could not say how much. A great many very costly things would be required. 5991. Do you think it would come to £1,2C0 or to £1,500? —I should think it would, very nearly, to set up the thing thoroughly. 5992. Dr. Sector.] Do you think there w rould be an adequate attendance on such lectures if they were established in different parts of New Zealand? —I think,if there were any inducements offered students would attend.

Mr. S. S. Cox.

April 25, 1879.

5993. Inducements in what way ? —ln the form of scholarships which would entitle them to attend a regular course afterwards. 5994. Eev. TV. J. Habens.] Scholarships to be taken at the end of the training obtained in evening classes ?—Tes.

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300

Mr. S. M. Cox.

5995. Dr. Hector.] How many pupils in practical chemistry could be carried on in one class-say in the AYellington Laboratory? —Eight in day classes. I think you might take ten in the evening ; but if you were working in the laboratory yourself there would not be room for more than eight. 5996. Tou mean without interfering with the ordinary work of the laboratory ?—Tes. 5997. And do you thiuk tho other branches of study, such as natural history, could be carried on successfully? —Most of the others would simply require lectures, diagrams, and specimens. 5998. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What would the metallurgical course consist of ?—Principally lectures, illustrated by diagrams, and, of course, assaying, which could be done in the laboratory. 5999. Dr. Hector.] If such lectures were established do you think they would be sufficient for giving the scientific education required as part of a University course, in addition to their applicability to another class of students ?—I think so. 6000. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it desirable that an attempt should be made to provide technical instruction to prepare young men within the colony to be mining engineers and assayers ? — Tes. It is a question whether there are sufficient students desirous of such instruction. If there is any demand, I think it is desirable that the attempt should be made. 6001. Do you observe anything iv the circumstances of the colony that renders it probable that a less proportion of young men would avail themselves of opportunities of such instruction than is the case in England ?—No. 6002. Dr. Hector.] Do you think any practical instruction and work in a mine would be necessary as part of the education of a mining surveyor or engineer ? —Certainly. I think a school course only commences or finishes his education—that the practical knowledge must be acquired either before or after. 6003. "Which do you think best—before or after?—l think it is best before, if a man can leave his work for a time to acquire the theoretical knowledge afterwards. 6004. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is that on the ground that a theory is so much better understood when the matter with which it is concerned is familiar to the student ?—Tes. 6005. Dr. Hector.] In conducting such a course it would be necessary to establish the school in a mining district, would it not ? —lf you combined the practical instruction with the theoretical it would certainly bo necessary. 6006. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Have you had any opportunity of observing whether those students in a mining school who have had some practical work iii mines have greater facility in acquiring their education at the school ? —Tes ; they seem, as a rule, to pass the examinations better. 6007. Dr. Hector.] Are there any mines in New Zealand where students could get a sufficiently varied experience in mining at the present time ? —The coal aud gold mines are the only ones that are opened up very much ; but in the neighbourhood of Nelson there are a large number of minerals which are almost certain to be worked in the future. 6008. Tou are Inspector of Mines for the colony ?—Tes. 6009. Do you think that as a rule the working of mines at present is in competent hands ?—Not as a rule. 6010. Is that from a deficiency of education on the part of the managers?—ln many cases the managers are utterly uneducated. 6011. _.«.. W. J. Habens.] That is to say, in that special department?—Tes; they have only learned what they know in the mines they are working in. 6012. Dr. Hector.] So that at present the mines would not illustrate a proper system of mining to students visiting or working in them? —No; the students would learn the names for the different kinds of work, and how mining was carried on, to a certain extent. 6013. If tho person appointed to conduct studies in mining was in constant communication with the mining managers, and constantly visiting them with his students, do you think it would exercise a beneficial effect on the management of the mines ? —lt would depend upon whether the managers would take any notice of those visits. 6014. "Would it not tend in that direction ? —I think it would ; and I think that students visiting an improperly-conducted mine with a competent instructor would learn quite as much as they would if it were the best-conducted mine in the colony. 6014 a. They would learn by contrast with what they were taught should be done ? —Tes. 6015. Hon. W. Gisborne.] How would you establish a school of mines in this colony adapted to its circumstances, if you were setting about it ? "Would it be a good thing to establish a faculty of engineering and practical science in the University ?—lt is almost necessary. 6016. Then there ought to be schools in which pupils could get tuition in order to qualify them to take degrees in the University?—Tos. 0017. Then, having come to that, would it be better to stipulate that in certain high schools there should be so much teaching a week in chemistry, mechanics, and mining, in order that the pupils might become qualified? —I question very much whether you would get a sufficient number of men to teach who understood anything about these subjects. 6018. Are any certificates now given to mining managers—underground managers—and captains of shifts ?—No. 6019. There is no provision by law that they shall be given?— There is a provision that every manager shall be a qualified man, but there is no examination at present. 6020. Who gives the certificate of qualification ?—I think the provision has been taken to apply to Home managers. 6021. Dr. Hector.] Tou are now referring to "The Mines Act, 1874," which has just been brought into force ?—Tes. 6022. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you think it is possible to institute evening classes and day classes in certain high schools for teaching mining, and then to have a faculty of mining in the University, so that persons should be able to qualify themselves to take degrees ? —I should think it would be easier to have lectures at the different museums, and make the students attend them from the various high schools.

April 25, 1879.

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301

6023. Through the means of the New Zealand Institute? —Tes. 602-1. Would you still have a chair in the New Zealand University ?—Tes. If there was not, there would be no inducement to go up for the preliminary examination. 6025. Professor Pearson, in his report on public education in Victoria, says,—" The staff of teachers that a college of practical science will need may be roughly estimated, I think, at —(1.) A lecturer of mathematics and mechanics, with a salary of £400. (2.) A lecturer of chemistry, specially qualified to assay metals and explain the chemistry of commerce, £100. (3.) A lecturer on land surveying, aud the mapping of mines, £250. (4.) A lecturer on mining, geology, and mineralogy. It should be contrived, if possible, I think, that this lecture should be given by the University lecturer of mines, who might run down once a week to lecture, and receive £100 a year from each college for his work. (5.) A lecturer on practical mining. This could probably be given by some mining manager at Ballarat and Sandhurst, £100." Do you think that, for that expense, which would be £1,250 a year, the State in New Zealand could establish a practical and useful school of mines on this principle?—Ou that principle I suppose it could. 6026. Do you uot think it absolutely necessary that there should be somebody appointed to give certificates of qualification to captains of shifts and underground mining managers ?—Tes; I think there should certainly be a Board appointed for the purpose. 6027. And every facility, you think, should be given for the education of people in the science of mining ? —Tes. 6028. What is your opinion about the Kaitangata accident; would it have occurred if the persons had had proper scientific knowledge, and had taken proper care ? —lf the mine had been thoroughly iuspected every morning there would have been far less danger of the accident occurring. Tou cannot always absolutely prevent those accidents. 6029. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you familiar with the arrangements which have been made in Otago for the establishment of a school of mines in connection with the Otago University ?—I have seen the course proposed by Professor Ulrich. 6030. Does that seem to you to be sufficient? —It seems to me rather more than is necessary. 6031. Dr. Hector.] Are you talking now of a school of mines such as you referred to in the early part of your evidence, or to the faculty of mining which Mr. Gisborne has just alluded to ?—I was referring to a practical school of mines. 6032. Did you consider that the school of mines you first referred to would culminate in a competition for scholarships leading to a course of study in mining in the University ? —Tes. 6033. Tou looked upon the scholarship as a reward after the course of study in the school of mines?—No, after the preliminai')* course of evening classes—that tho scholarships would admit boys or young men into a University or school of mines, where they would acquire certificates of thorough competency. 6034. Then you did not mean that the evening classes were to constitute the school of mines ? — No, not entirely. 6035. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Would you read what Professor Pearson says relating to the School of Mines in Victoria, and what he recommends on the subject, and furnish the Commission with a memorandum of the principles of a scheme which, in your opinion, would effectively create a school of mines adapted to the circumstances of this colony ; and also give your opinion of the arraugements which have already beeu proposed in this colony for a school of mines ? —Having carefully read that part of Mr. Charles H. Pearson's report on the state of public education in Victoria which refers specially to schools of mines, I am of opinion that his scheme is applicable to New Zealand, if certain modifications were adopted. Briefly, what I consider would be the most desirable course to establish would be as follows:—(1.) That a school of mines should be established iv connection with the New Zealand University, at any one suitable mining centre, and that a faculty bo established in the various branches of mining, geology, and metallurgy in connection with the school of mines. (2.) That iv each of the other large towns lectures in mathematics, applied mechanics, physics, chemistry, mining geology, mineralogy, aud mine-surveying, and a practical laboratory course iv chemistry, be given, to either day or evening classes, or both, as may be found necessary. (8.) That certificates be granted in the various subjects to students who pass their examinations, and that a certain number of scholarships be instituted in connection with this course, which shall entitle the successful students to a free course of study at the school of mines, aud shall be of a sufficient money value to enable them to live during the term of their attendance at the school. (4.) That students attending these classes shall be permitted to go up for examination in any of the subjects included in the two first years' courses at the school of mines, the examination taking place in the various towns on the same day. (5.) That, for final certificates in mining and the other branches of the school-of-mines course, it shall be necessary to have at least one year's course at the school of mines ; and that this certificate, with a two-years' certificate of service in a mine or mines, shall authorize the holders to take appointments as mine managers throughout the colony. With regard to the expense which these classes would entail, I have little doubt that competent lecturers could be found who would undertake the various courses at £150 per annum each, so that the annual expenditure would be £1,200 in each town. If travelling lecturers were appointed, no doubt some of this expense could be saved; but the arrangement would, I think, be likely to clash with any made for general examinations. The first expense of establishing these classes in Dunedin and Canterbury would be nil; while in Wellington it would be comparatively small, owing to the appliances which already exist; but in Nelson, Napier, aud Auckland a considerable first outlay would be necessary in order to obtain the necessary apparatus and specimens, and also to fit up laboratories such as would be required. Rev. J. Patebso-T examined. 6036. Dr. Hector.] Tou are one of the governors of Wellington College ? —Tes. 6037. How long have you held that position ? —About four years. 6038. How long have you resided in Wellington ?—Nearly eleven years.

Mr. S. H. Cox.

March 25, 1879.

Sev. J. Paterson,

April 25, 1879,

H.—l

302

:. 6039. And from your general duties have you had your attention directed to the educational requirements of the place ? —Yes ; I have always taken a deep interest in education. GO4O. How far do you consider that Wellington College at the present time supplies the instruction it was intended to afford ? —I think it supplies the instruction it was intended to afEord as well as can he expected from the means at the disposal of the governors, but I think very imperfectly compared with what it ought to do. 6041. To what instruction do you refer—to that which it gives as a grammar school, or as an affiliated branch of the University ? —More especially its instruction as an affiliated college of the University. 0042. AYe have had it in evidence, however, that the greater number of the pupils are really grammar-school pupils ? —Tes, they are. 0043. Do you think that the expenditure of the endowments is properly devoted to the grammarschool branch of the College?—l am not sufficiently acquainted with the original intention of the endowments ; but I think, considering they were made for college education, they are properly expended on higher education. They ought to be devoted specially to higher education. 0044. Do you think there is sufficient demand for grammar-school education in Wellington to support an institution purely for that purpose, without endowments?—l do not know whether there would be sufficient witliout endowments: at any rate, if such an institution were established and made thoroughly efficient, it might draw a sufficient number of pupils to be self-supporting; but I do not think it would be self-supporting at the commencement, or for some time. 0045. What do you think, from your general experience, would be the number of boys who would attend a grammar school here ? —I think thero might be 200 or 300. 0046. And what would be the cost of couducting such a school? —It would require, I should think, at auy rate, from £1,500 to £2,000 a year. 6047. Do you think the fees at present charged in the College are suited to the circumstances of the population?—l think so. 6048. I mean, they are not too high or too low ?—No, I think not. 6049. Could they be raised without materially injuring the school ?—We have been lowering the fees a little, believing that by doing so we would attract a larger number of pupils to the iustitutiou; and, considering that the education in the primary schools is free, I think we ought to make the education in secondary schools as low as possible. I believe that is the general feeling throughout the community. 6050. In the event of the higher education being separated from the grammar-school education, which department do you think the present College should undertake, aud its endowments be devoted to? —That would depend a great deal on the original intention in giving the endowments. The endowments were for college education, which I always understood to mean University or higher education; and I think it would be quite a legitimate disposal of those endowments to devote them to University education proper. 6051. Do you think that the mode in which the governing body of Wellington College is constituted shows that it was intended for the control of au institution for higher education, or of an ordinary grammar school?—I think it shows that it was intended to control an institution for higher education. 1 have always understood that Wellington College was the only institution we had for higher education. Surely it was never coutemplated that the capital of the colony should be without the means of furnishing higher education. I always understood that to supply such an education was the object of the College; while, at the same time, we having no grammar school, it combined the two ; and with our limited means we contrived to do the best we could : but the combination does not work well. 6052. You mean that the combination of grammar-school education with University education does not work well ? —No, it does not. You will not get students advanced both in age and attainments to attend an institution where there are mere children, perhaps, or boys, such as you would expect to find in a grammar school. 6053. Do you think there would be sufficient attendance at a purely collegiate institution to warrant its establishment in Wellington ?—Yes, I think so. I know, for example, of three young men connected with the Presbyterian Church who went to Otago last year to prosecute their studies, and of one or two more who are going this year —just because they will not attend Wellington College : not that they think the masters there are not qualified to give them the education they require, but they do not care to mix with mere boys, they themselves being men. 6054. Have you heard of any other instances of lads having to leave Wellington in order to get higher education ?—Yes ; I have known several others who have gone South within the last few years. 6055. Have you heard of auy who have been sent Home to the Universities who might probably have completed their studies in this colony had their been the means ?—Yes, several. (JO.jG. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that a staff, with a headmaster and assistants, is a suitable arrangement for a University institution ? —lu a University institution there is usually a principal, with a staff of professors. There must be a head: but it is not in the sense of a headmaster with assistants, but it is rather a sort of organized body with a recognized head or principal. 6057. The principal is more like the chairman of a Board ?—Yes, or like the moderator of a Presbytery, or the president of a corporate society. 6058. Dr. Hector.] You mean that, as far as their teaching functions are concerned, the professors are equal with the principal ? —Yes; each is, as it were, supreme in his own department. 6059. And that is not the constitution of Wellington College?— No. 6060. Is it constituted now more like a grammar school ?—Yes, with a headmaster and second master, &c. 6061. You are not now talking of the constitution of tho governing body, but of the teaching body ? —Yes, of the teaching body. 6062. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Have you seen the original grant of the land which was conveyed as an endowment for Wellington College ? —I have glanced over it, but not examined it with sufficient care to enable me to give an opinion about it.

Eev. J. Palerson.

April 25, 1879.

303

H.—i

6063. Nearly all the endowments from which income is derived were made by Sir George Grey when he was Governor of New Zealand about 1348 —is not that the case?--I believe it is, hut I am not well acquainted with those matters, which occurred so long ago, and before I came to the colony. 6064. Do you recollect whether, when Sir George Grey made those endowments, they were not made for a Wellington Grammar School as well as College ? —They were made long before I came to the colony. 6065. But is it likely he would have made endowments at that time merely for University education ? — Very likely not in the early days. I dare say they thought more then of what you might call grammar-school or high-school education than of University education ; they might not then have contemplated University education. But that was a long time ago, and the colony was then in its infancy. 6066. But, until 1872, was not the Wellington Grammar School or College together what you would call in Scotland a high school and in England a public school?—Tes; I believe so. 6067. Then it became affiliated to the University, and professed to give an education which would qualify for degrees? —Tes; and I understand that at that time it was, as it w*ere, elevated out of its former position, and recognized as a College. 6068. At that time, under an Act of 1872, and I think before the Act was passed, the Superintendent of the province made reserves for the Wellington College, and it was called the Wellington College; and the question then would arise whether from that time it was not intended to be the means of giving what is called University education? —I should think that, if it was at that time elevated from the lower position of a simple grammar school and raised to the higher position of a College, retaining all its former endowments and receiving additional ones, that those in the Legislature who did that must have believed they were legitimately disposing of the former endowments, and that there was nothing inconsistent in applying them, as they did, to the higher education. 6069. Would it not be a very dangerous thing, if there were endowments for a Grammar School, for the Legislature to alter the trust so as to make those endowments applicable only to University education ? Would that be a proper thing, do you think, foi" a Legislature to do ? —I do not know ; the Legislature of the day must consider what is best for the country, and what the best use to make of educational endowments. 6070. But ought it to interfere with endowments made, say, by private individuals, or by the public, for a certain purpose? lam not talking of the legal power, but do you think it is right for the Legislature to alter a trust? —If the Legislature felt that the endowments were not serving the purpose for which they were devoted, and that it could more usefully apply them to another cognate purpose, I think it quite legitimate for it to do so : it is the supreme power. The State cau surely revise and re-arrange its own trusts. 6071. I will put it in this way : grammar-school education means education to poor and destitute people —to the mass of the people. The grant, I think, recognized that it meant elementary education to the poorer class. Assuming that that is the case, would it be right for the Legislature afterwards to say that, although these reserves were heing used for that purpose in conformity with the original trust,, yet that they should only be used for giving high-class University education, and not for the purpose for which they were originally made ?—lf they were endowments devoted by the Legislature to the education of poor children, and if there were still poor children to be educated—in other words, if they could be used for the purpose to which they had been devoted, I think it would be a misappropriation to take them away from that object and apply them to another. 6072. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you any reason to believe that this was an endowment for the benefit of poor and destitute children? —No ; I never dreamed it was. 6073. Dr. Hector.] Do you know of any endowments held by the College which were made otherwise than by the Legislature of the country ? —No ; they are all, I believe, State endowments. 6074. These original endowments were made by the Governor at the time he represented the interests of the country ? —I understand so. 6075. There were no private endowments, and no trust imposed by any private authority?— Not that I am aware of. 6076. Hon. W. Gisborne.] The original grants to which I referred were not made by the Legislature. They were made by the Governor of the country under an authority which he may have had from the Constitution Act; but they were not made by the Legislature ? —They were made by the State. The act of the Governor, as such, was the act of the State. 6077. Well, supposing the endowments were not made for the benefit of the poor classes, hut for the purpose of giving an elementary English education to the majority of the people —that is, to the general"middle and lower classes —supposing the trust was for that, besides for college education, and it stated a college education, would it be right for the Legislature to exclude altogether the original intention of the trust as far as regards English elementary education, and apply the proceeds of the endowments solely to University education ? Supposing these endowments had b.en devoted to the two-fold object, would it be right for the Legislature to say that they should only be devoted to one object ? —lt it were found by experience that the two-fold object of a college and a grammar school could not be satisfactorily combined in one institution, and that it must be divided and made into two separate institutions ; then, in that case, I think the Legislature should either say, " Well, as we are about to separate the institution into two —a college proper and a grammar school —we must make a distribution of the endowments;" or, " Let the one institution take all the endowments, and we will make ample provision for the other." I think that would be fair. The Legislature must see that both institutions are in an efficient condition. 6078. Dr. Hector.] Considering that the Legislature has provided free primary education, and has established a number of scholarships which can be obtained by the most deserving pupils at the primary schools to carry them on, free of cost, to a secondary or even to a University education, do you think the Legislature has a right to revise the destination of the original endowments ? —I think so. The Legislature, in my opinion, has a perfect right to revise the original intention at any time. 6079. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Of course you are not referring to private endowments ? —No. lam alludingto the college endowments made by the State.

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60SO. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know* if the trusts of the Wellington College are similar to those of the Auckland College and Grammar School ? —I cannot say. I am not acquainted with the nature of the Auckland Grammar School trust. 6081. In the absence of a copy of the original grant, for which the Commission has made application, the questions at this stage of your examination are necessarily somewhat problematical; but, assuming a case, that a grant to an institution like the Wellington College was expressly given for the purposes of college and grammar-school education, do you think that the State might, at this stage of our colonial progress, fairly, and without any injustice, divide those two objects, and place them under separate managements ?—Certainly, it might do so, if it thought it would better carry out the objects. My reason for saying so is this : that the State—l use the word State, because I understand it was the Governor as the head or representative of the State—in the infancy of the colony, devoted endowments towards maintaining grammar-school and college education, and believed that those two classes of education could be carried out in one institution in a given locality. Some twenty or thirty years afterwards, when the circumstances of the country are totally different, when there is a large population, and when there is need for higher requirements in education, it is found that you cannot carry , out that twofold object efficiently iv one institution ; that, in fact, you must divide the institution and establish a college in the proper sense of the term, aud a grammar school or a high school. Well, I say it is quite legitimate for the State to revise these endowments, and to re-apportion them —to establish the two institutions, and, if found necessary, even to have two separate governing bodies. I think that is quite within the powers of the State. 6052. Hon. W. Gisborne.] But you recognize the claim of both those objects to a distribution of the reserves? If they were jointly interested in the reserves, would you, when the separation took place, recognize the right of each to an equitable distribution ?—I simply recognize this : that the State can say to one institution —to the college, for instance —"Tou take all these endowments; and we will endow a high school: wo are setting it up as a separate institution, and we will endow it out of other funds, or, at any rate, sec that it is put in an efficient condition." 6083. Dr. Hector.] Tou stated that the probable attendance at a high school in Wellington would, in your opinion, be between 200 and 300 ?—I think there might be 300. 6081. And that the required expenditure would be about £2,000 a year? —Tes ; about £2,000. 6085. At the present rate of fees, the institution would therefore pay without endowments ?— Tes, nearly so. 6086. Provided it were not in debt for building ? —Tes ;if it were free. In Scotlaud these institutions —high schools and grammar schools —are for the most part self-supporting. Ido not know that the masters in the high school at Edinburgh or the Academy are assisted by endowments. The endowments are required for University education, as it is necessary to have men with the highest qualifications in each department of study, and in order to secure such men you have to give large salaries ; and there may be only a limited number of students. 6087. As far as the education of the poor and destitute is concerned, to what extent do you think that need is supplied by the present system of free primary education and scholarships ?—I think it is admirably met by the free education given in the primary schools throughout the country, and that liberal bursaries and scholarships will enable aspiring youths even of that class to prosecute their studies in the higher institutions. 6088. Do you consider that the expenditure by the State at the present time upon free education in Wellington exceeds in amount the income derived from the original endowments made by Sir George Grey's grants ? —Vastly. In Wellington City alone we have expended on school buildings within the last two or three years —or will have expended by next year —the sum of £20,000. 6089. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you know whether this grant from the State for primary education has in any province neutralized the reserves which were made for primary education ? Is it not considered that the State aid is in addition to the proceeds of the reserves for primary education? Has not that been the rule ? —lt should be the rule, at any rate ; where there is a plethora of endowments there should be less given by way of grants. 6090. Do you know any instance in any province where the reserves for primary education are diverted from the purpose for which they were made, in consequence of the establishment of State primary education ? —I am not aware of any —not in this province, at any rate. In some of the other provinces where the endowments may have been on a more liberal scale it may be the case, but I am not aware that it is so here. 6091. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you aware that the revenues at present received in any district from the primary reserves are applied in abatement of the grant of £3 15s. per head made by the Government to that district ? —No ; but it may be so. 6092. Hon. W. Gisborne.] The word "college" does not necessarily mean University education, does it ? Are there not in England institutions that are called colleges which are not Universities ? — All my training and all my experience have led me to the conviction that a college should be an institution that gives University education. 6093. Is not Eton called a college ? —Tes. I believe such institutions in England are called colleges; but I was educated in Scotland, where colleges are synonymous with Universities. 6091. Are you aware of any institutions in England which are called colleges, and yet which do not give University education?—l believe there are some. There is the Liverpool College, but it is affiliated to the London University. 1 have no doubt that tho Wellington College was intended to be an institution which would qualify for any of the learned professions. 6095. And what do you understand by the expression " Wellington Grammar School," wdiich is used ? —I understand by that a lower department, which would qualify the pupils to enter the higher institution. In the early days, when the pupils were few in number, it was thought they could combine the two departments iv one institution ; but I do not think we can much longer do that satisfactorily. 6056. Dr. Hector.] Are the funds at the disposal of the Board of Governors sufficient for carrying on the institution as at present constituted? —They are utterly inadequate. On the building itself there is a heavy debt of £5,000, for which we are now paying interest at the rate of 10 percent. That

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is a heavy incumbrance on the institution. That sum, with the necessary expenditure for repairs and other contingencies connected with the maintenance of the building, will nearly absorb the whole of the proceeds from the endowments. 6097. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Prom inquiries you have made, was it an understanding, when the building was erected, partly out of private subscriptions and partly out of provincial grant, that there would be a provincial grant in aid until the reserves which were made at that time should be productive of income ? —Tes ; that was clearly understood. 6098. Have the reserves that were made about the year 1871 or 1872 been productive of any income ? —No ; not yet. 6099. They are mostly in the country,?— They are in the rural districts. 6100. Are they not utterly unproductive at present, in consequence of there being no power of sale or mortgage ?—Tes. 6101. Are they likely to continue to be unproductive for some years to come, under these circumstances ? —Tes. 6102. Dr. Hector.] Was it an understanding that the building should be built out of revenue ? — It could not have been. It would be an absurd idea to erect a building like that out of revenue. 6103. A free building was to be part of the foundation of the institution?—Tes ; it certainly ought to be. 6104. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Was it not in consequence of the provincial reserves being made by the Superintendent that the College governors erected a large part of the building available for dormitories, so that pupils from the country districts might be admitted into the College ? —Tes. The College was always regarded, not simply as a city institution, but as one for the whole province; and for that reason a grant from the Provincial Treasury was given to it. It was thought proper to make provision for boys from the country districts, and that led to its being a more expensive building. There is an item in our revenue which we have lost, which fact is sometimes forgotten. I allude to the grant of £300 a year which we received for three years from the University funds towards the teaching of science in the College. On the faith of that grant we appointed the present lecturer in natural science —Professor Kirk. We have lost, in fact, £1,800 a year through changes over which the governing body had no control. When I became a member of the governing body nearly four years ago, we had £1,800 a year by way of direct grant—£l,soo from the Provincial Government and £300 from the University—which income has been entirely swept away, and the College left to struggle on without it. It is therefore, of course, in difficulties, and will continue to be so unless the Legislature help us. The endowments have increased a little in value, but nothing at all in proportion to that loss. 6105. The increase in the value of the endowments in that time has been, I think, from £650 to £1,000 ?—Tes ; the increase has been, I think, about £400. 6106. Are you aware of any State grant for erecting college buildings in Auckland ? —Tes; I have heard of it, but am not sufficiently informed to speak definitely. I believe a grant of £5,000 was made last year by the Legislature to Auckland. 6107. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know how the Wellington College acquired certain estates in the township of Carnarvon, in the Harbour district, and at Palmerston North? —They were endowments made by the Provincial Government. 6108. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Are you aware that when the building on the Terrace formerly occupied by the College was given up the Provincial Government allowed a valuation on the building to the amount of £800 ? —Tes. 6109. Are you aware that that £800 was given by the province in the shape of land or reserves at Carnarvon and Palmerston North ?—Tes, I believe it was so. The land at Carnarvon was given as an equivalent for the money value of the building formerly occupied by the College, and now known as the Terrace Public School. 6110. Dr. Hector.] Tou are a member of the Senate of the University of New Zealand ? —Tes. 6111. Do you consider that the University, as at present constituted, has that form which is best suited to the requirements of higher education in the colony ? —Tes, I think so. 6112. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the present method of appointing the Senate is a satisfactory one ? —I do not know of any other method that would bo better. Of course, when the Council is completed by the graduates the regulation will come into force by which they have a voice in the appointment of members of the Senate; but until then I do not know of anything better than the present arrangement. 6113. Dr. Hector.] Tou think that, as long as the Government provide the whole of the funds for the maintenance of the University as an examining body, they should have a large voice in the appointment of the Senate ? —Tes. 6114. Do you think that the affiliated colleges in all parts of the colony are sufficiently and equally endowed ? —I think they are very unequally endowed. 6115. I asked that question because you said that, as at present constituted, you felt satisfied with the Kew Zealand University? —I did not refer to the affiliated colleges, but to the University as an examining body. 6116. Tou think the University should be purely an examining body ?—Tes ; and to confer degrees. But I think there ought to be colleges affiliated, giving University education. 6117. Do you think the colleges in Christchurch and Dunedin are upon a proper footing, and on a sufficiently enlarged basis, at the present time ? Are they properly established as regards endowments and equipment of professors ? —Tes ; I think they are very well established in that respect —at least, as compared with our colleges in the North. 6118. Do you think similar institutions should be established in other parts of the colony ? —Tes ; I think that in Auckland and in Wellington there ought to be institutions put upon the same footing as to endowments, staff of professors, and so forth. 6119. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that if other colleges of the kind now under consideration were established it would be advisable to grant to the governing bodies of the colleges, and perhaps also to the professors, as well as to the graduates of the University, some voice in the 39— H. 1.

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, appointment of members of tbe Senate ? —Tos ; if all tbese institutions were put upon tbe same footing as to endowments and teaching power, I think it would be. 6120. Do you think that in that case the Government should still retain a considerable power of nomination ? —Yes. 6121. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Are you in favour of State scholarships ascending from the primary school to the University, so as to enable pupils, if they possess the ability, to rise up to the highest education the State can afford?—Tes, certainly. 6122. Dr. Hector.] Do you think the object of State assistance should be to educate tho whole of the young, and to raise the average, or that it should be to select the most able and rush them ahead of their fellows ? —I think the most important thing is to raise the average education all over the country ; at the same time there ought to be encouragement given to lads with peculiar gifts and special aspirations to prosecute their studies in the higher departments. 6123. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that tbe fostering of special talent, and making use of it for the good of the whole country, will in the long run tell upon the average education ? —Yes, I believe it will. 6124. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Is not the present system, which provides primary education, and which also assists University education and secondary education, aud yet does not facilitate boys rising from the primary schools to tho higher-class education —is not that really class education, giving the persons of the greater means the benefit of high-class education, while excluding tbe lower class of smaller means? Is not the present system really a class education in favour of the persons who have got more means than others ? According to the present system primary education is given free ; but if pupils in the primary schools have ability, and yet have no means, they are not enabled by the State to rise up to University education ?■—There are scholarships—l do not think there are so many as there ought to be ; but still there are a few scholarships in connection with each institution, and open to all. 6125. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you aware that the State allows each Education Board the sum of eighteenpence per child per annum, on the average attendance, for the purpose of creating scholarships to be held at high schools and grammar schools ? —Yes. I am a member of the "Wellington Education Board, and we offer, I think, seven scholarships yearly to enable boys at the primary schools who may succeed in obtaining them to prosecute their studies at the College. 6126. Dr. Hector.] And when they are at the College there are junior scholarships that lead on to tho University ? —Yes. 6127. And, as a matter of fact, are these ever taken by the same boys ?—The time has been so short that we cannot tell yet. 6128. There is no reason why they should not be ?—Xo. I think it is very likely that a boy wbo has distinguished himself at a primary school, and taken the scholarship, and bas continued his studies at the College, will take a University scholarship, and prosecute bis studies up to the very highest point, till he take his degree. 6129. And that boy might take a special honor scholarship under the new arrangement of the University ; and that would enable him to go Home and study for three years ? —Yes, quite so. 6130. Hon. W. Gisborne.] The present system of State aid to secondary and high-class education is, I suppose, very imperfect and unequal in different parts of the country ? —Yes ; no doubt of that. 6131. Then anything which removes that, and makes the system more equal and more comprehensive, will not be open to the imputation of being class education, but rather the reverse ? —Of course it would be placing the facilities for prosecuting higher education within the reach of a larger number. 6132. There is an idea in some quarters that by assisting higher education the State is assisting people of larger means, to the exclusion of those of smaller means. What I want to ask you is, if what we propose, State education, should be rendered more equal and more comprehensive throughout the different classes of education, would it not be a fallacy to suppose that that would be assisting the rich to the exclusion of the poor?— Yes, it would be ; for, on the contrary, it would tend to bring the higher education more within the reach of the poor, especially if the State would, as it were, bridge over the gap between the primary schools and the higher schools or colleges. If it would bring these two together by a system of middle schools and of scholarships and bursaries, assistance given to higher education would be bringing it within the reach of the many in the lower schools. But the State must see to it that by the assistance given to higher education it almost comes down to, or touches and overlaps, the primary schools. 6133. Dr. Hector.] Do you consider that the means afforded for effecting that are insufficient ? — Yes ; quite insufficient. 613_. And that they could be extended with advantage ? —"With great advantage. 6135. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the scholarships provided by the Government ought to be avowedly of an eleemosynary character ? —Certainly not. 6136. Then, supposing they are perfectly open, do you not think that boys of a certain social standing are more likely to carry off the prizes than those who have less advantages iv that respect ?— Ido not know. I rather think not; because boys who feel that they need the scholarships to enable them to carry on their studies will likely work harder to gain them. The education which brings them up to the point when they can take a primary scholarship is as good and cheap for a poor boy as for a rich bo}*. I believe the education given in the primary schools is superior to that which the richer boys would receive in a small select .school ; and if you begin the scholarships at that point you place them within the reach of the very poorest boys, and yet they are not of an eleemosynary character. 6137. Dr. Hector.] Do you think from your knowledge of "Wellington that, in the event of a grammar school being established, independent of the College, it would be advisable to divide it into two schools, situated at different parts of the town, for tho convenience of the pupils?—No, I think not. I would have one large grammar school. 6138. You do not think the distance would be a substantial inconvenience to any portion of the inhabitants ?■ —No, I do not think so. 6139. Have you formed any opinion as to whether it would be desirable to establish district high

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schools in tho "Wellington District ? —I think these district high schools ought to be encouraged throughout the whole educational district. It would bo beneficial to the teachers —it would tend to keep up their scholarship, aud inspire them with an ambition for the character of their schools; and these district high schools would act as feeders to the colleges. 6140. What had you in view as to the peculiar characteristic of a district high school? —That, in addition to the ordinary education given in primary schools, classes would bo formed for elementary mathematics and for Latin and elementary science, tho mathematics embracing, say, the first six books of Euclid, aud algebra to simple and quadratic equations. 6141. Have you had experience of such classes in the Home-country ?—Tes. In all the parish schools of Scotland they have these classes. I received my own education at a parish school, and went direct from there to the University at Glasgow without attending any intermediate high school. 6142. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you approve of the provision of " The Education Act, 1877," under which such subjects as you have spoken of, and as distinguish the district high school from the mere district school, are to be paid for by the fees of the children ?—Tes, I think so. If they take a special subject they pay a special fee for it, but not a high fee. 6143. Dr. Hector.] Have any steps been taken by the Board of Governors towards the establishment of a girls' high school ? —lf we had the means wo certainly ought to have a girls' high school. 6144. "What steps have been taken by the College governors ?—We asked the State to assist us in establishing a girls' high school; and iast year the Assembly voted three thousand pounds' worth of land for the purpose, but gave us no power to sell. It is rural land, and we get really nothing from it, and there is no likelihood of receiving much for some years; so that we are no better off than we were. AYe have nothing with which either to erect a building or pay rent for one, and are utterly without means to establish a girls' high school. The governors have made arrangements with the Principal of tho College by which two hours will be devoted by the masters daily to giving instruction to girls at tbe College in separate classes. That is tho very utmost we can do at present, but we feel that it is quite inadequate. 6145. AVhat attendance is there expected to be at these classes ? —I could not say. There may not be a large number availiug themselves of them at first; though I expect a considerable number. I have no doubt if a girls' high school were established in AVelliugton it would have a very large attendance. 6146. How many, approximately ? —There might be from seventy to a hundred, or perhaps considerably more. 6147. AVhat ages would they range from—from the time they left the primary school until they completed their education ? —Tes ; say, from twelve or thirteen up to sixteen or eighteen. 6148. Are tho girls who will attend the special classes at the College to be taught in a separate room from the boys ? —Tes; they are to be taught in the College museum.

Rev. J. Palerson. April 25, 1879.

Dunedin, Saturday, 21st June, 1879. Present: Mr. G-. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Eev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Sale, Dr. Macdonald, Professor Shand, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Ulrich. Mr. "WiLL-Aii Macdonald, M.A., LL.D., was sworn and examined. 6149. The Chairman.] Tou are rector of tbe Otago Boys' High School? —Yes. 6150. How long bave you held tbat position ?—I came to New Zealand in November, 1878. 6151. And you entered upon your duties at tbat time ? —Tes. 6152. AVhat was your previous educational experience ? —I was for five years a pupil-teacher under the Privy Council at Home ; for two and a-half years tutor of a boarding school in the west of Scotland ; for four years master in a private school in Edinburgh ; for three years assistant to the Professor of Greek in tho University of Edinburgh; and for eleven years one of the classical masters in tbe Hi gh School of Edinburgh. 6153. Are you not a graduate of the Edinburgh University ? —I am a Master of Arts and a Doctor of Laws of the University of Edinburgh. 6154. Have you any evidence to offer to the Commission with respect to the Otago Boys' High School ? —Very full information about the High School is contained in the answers which have been furnished to the schedules issued by this Commission, and. as my connection with the school is of so recent a date, I think any further information the Commission may desire as to the history and working of the school would be best supplied by my senior colleague Mr. Brent, the mathematical master, who has been on tbe staff of the school since its foundation sixteen years ago, and who has on several occasions acted as interim rector. With respect to my own position and duties I hand in a copy of my agreement with the Board of Governors, from which it will be seen that my duties are defined in the following terms : —"To undertake, in virtue of his office, such superintendence of the High School a3 is generally performed by headmasters, and to conduct the Latin and Greek classes in the upper school . . . but subject to the control and direction in all respects of the Board." The engagement is for three years, and thereafter subject to six months' notice on either side. By this agreement the remuneration for my services is partly in the form of salary aud partly in the form of capitatiou allowance, and in no case to be less than £700 a year. Since the date of the agreement the £700 has been altered to £800. With respect to matters relating to secondary education generally, I hope to have an opportunity of laying my views on these subjects before my fellow-Commissioners when they come to the consideration of them, and I do not therefore deem it necessary to offer you any formal evidence with respect to them.

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6155. Is there any connection between your school and the Otago University?— There is no official connection between the High School and the Otago University. 6156. There are no scholarships founded by the Otago University for the encouragement of learning in your school particularly ? —There are none. The Richardson Scholarship is hold at the University of Otago by pupils of the High School; but it is a private scholarship founded by the late Sir John Richardson. 6157. Has your school derived any pecuniary benefit from the Now Zealand University ?—During the time of my connection with the school one of the boys has carried off a junior scholarship. 6158. My question rather had reference to the fact that at one time certain schools received a grant of something Hke £300 a year from the University?— The High School of Dunedin has never received any money from the University of New Zealand; it has never been affiliated to that institution. 6159. Have you any acquaintance with tho efforts now being made at Home for giving a University education to young ladies ?—There are schemes of that kind, I think, in connection with all the four Universities of Scotland. The only scheme that I have had any opportunity of observing the working of is that carried on by the Ladies' Educational Association in Edinburgh. The University professors in Edinburgh have conducted classes for several years in such subjects as English literature, mental science, Latin, Greek, and branches of physical science, with very great energy and success. I could easily obtain from Home, for the use of the Commission, the reports for several years past of the Ladies' Educational Association, whicb would convey the fullest information on this point. 6160. I suppose that up to the present time the Edinburgh University has not granted any degrees to ladies ?—No Scotch University has taken that step. 6161. Do they grant a certificate of proficiency r —They do. 6162. Are girls' high schools established throughout Scotland on the same principle as the Dunedin Girls' High School ? —They are not in any sense generally established throughout Scotland ; but one of tho chief features of recent educational movements in Scotland has been the establishment of girls' schools of that character. Eor example, in connection with the reform of the Hospitals, which has been the most prominent educational movement with respect to secondary education in Scotland for many years, the Merchant Company of Edinburgh has two large and admirably-appointed girls' schools. And the same remark applies to the more recent reform of the Hutchison Hospital funds in Glasgow—they have a magnificent girls' high school in connection with their foundation. 6163. And is it chiefly through these institutions to which you have referred that girls' secondary education is provided for in Edinburgh ? —-I could not say chiefly; but, when I tell you that in the principal girls' school in connection with the Merchants' Company no fewer than 1,200 girls are attending, you must see that they at least occupy a very prominent position in tho system of girls' education in Scotland. But there are in Edinburgh very many excellent girls' schools of a private character. 6164. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the High-School building at present in use in Dunedin well adapted for its purpose ? —The question of providing more suitable accommodation for the school has been for some time under the consideration of the Board of Governors, and a few weeks ago ground for a new site for the school was reserved under an Order in Council. Mr. D. Beent, M.A., was sworn and examined. 6165. The Chairman.] Tou are the mathematical master of the Otago Boys' High School ?—Tes. 6166. How long have you occupied that position ? —Sixteen years. 6167. What was your educational experience before you received the appointment ?—I was mathematical master for three years in Tonbridge School, Kent. 6168. I think you are a University graduate ? —Tes ; I am an M.A. of Cambridge. 6169. Tou have, I think, on some occasions, acted as rector of the High School? —Tes. 6170. For how long ? —I was acting-rector during the interregnum between Dr. Macdonald and Mr. Norrie, and also, previously, between the resignation of Mr. Hawthorne and Mr. Norrie's appointment. 6171. AVere you appointed by the headmaster or by the Board of Governors ? —I was appointed by the agents at Home, at the time when the school was founded. 6172. At what salary? —Eour hundred and fifty pounds a year, with a house allowance. 6173. Has your salary remained at that ?—lt is now £525 a year, without a house. 6174. Bey. W. J. Habeas.] How are the masters of the High School generally appointed ?—By the Board of Governors. I was appointed at Home. The school was started with a staff of three masters, who were obtained from Home. 6175. Selected by a Commission ? —Tes. 6176. The Chairman.] Who were the other two masters ? —Mr. Campbell, who was drowned in the harbour, and never entered upon his duties, and Mr. Abram, who has since resigned. 6177. Is there a minimum age fixed for admission to the school ?—No, I think not. At first the age was fixed at nine; but the rule afterwards fell into abeyance, and now there is no minimum age. 6178. Is there any test for admission by way of examination ?—There is no formal test. A boy must be able to read and write fairly, and know the first four rules of arithmetic. 6179. Eor how many hours per week do the students attend the school ? —Twenty-five —five hours daily for five days. 6180. Then Saturday is a whole holiday ?—Tes. The upper classes attend for twenty-six hours; there is an extra hour given for drawing. 6181. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Is drawing taught to all the boys ?—Tes. 6182. As part of the school course ?—Yes. 6183. The Chairman.] How often in the week is drawing taught ? —ln the senior class twice a week, an hour each lesson, and in the junior cl.ass an hour's lesson a week. 6184. AVho is the teacher of drawing ? —Mr. Hutton, the provincial drawing-master, who has two assistants.

Mr. Macdonald.

June 21,1879.

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6185. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is singing also taught in the school ? —No. 6186. The Chairman.] Is there a library connected with the school; and, if so, on what conditions is it accessible to the pupils?— There is a library, and the terms are 2s. 6d. per year subscription. 6187. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are the subscriptions applied to the renewal of books? —Tes. 6188. The Chairman.] Are the books allowed to be taken homo, or must they be used on the premises ?—They are allowed to be taken home, and must be returned at stated intervals. 6189. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you find that the boys generally avail themselves of the use of the library ? —Not a very large number of the boys do so. 6190. The Chairman.] Of what class are the books—educational books or books of amusement ?— Books of amusement mainly. 6191. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is there any reference library connected with the institution ?—Tes. There is a portion of the first rector's library, which was purchased by the Government for a reference library. 6192. Aud have the boys, as well as the masters, access to it?— The boys can use it whenever they like, and, as a matter of fact, they do use what books they want. A small number of these books was brought out from Home by the masters for the purpose of a reference library, a small sum of money having been granted by the Government for the purpose. 6193. Are additions made to this library annually ?—Additions are made at intervals, but not with any very great regularity. The Provincial Government used to give a pound for every pound raised by means of subscriptions; and as soon as we had obtained any money from the boys' subscriptions we used to hand it in to the Provincial Treasury, where it was added to in the proportion of pound for pound, and the sum applied to the purchase of books from Home, from which we made a selection. 6194. The Chairman.] Has that system been kept up since the abolition of the Provincial Government ?—Not since the passing of the Public Libraries Subsidies Act of 1877. 6195. Is there any connection between your school and tho New Zealand University ? —No ; we are not affiliated. 6196. Has the curriculum of study been planned with the object of bringing it into relation with the New Zealand University course ?—Since the foundation of tho school we have always endeavoured to make the line of study preparatory to a University course, and since the establishment of the University changes havo been made in text-books and subjects. 6197. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you formed auy opinion as to the suitability of the present •arrangement, by which the year is divided into four quarters, as compared with another arrangement, by which there would be three terms, with two short recesses and one long one during the year?—l think it would be better to have the term arrangement, making shorter divisions—to have three terms, instead of four quarters with a fortnight's holiday between the two half-years. 6198. Do you think that the strain of the many months of work, with scarcely any break, is felt by the studious boys ? —I think that the tendency is in that direction, but I cannot say that I have observed any particular instances of serious results of that kind in tho High School. 6199. Do you think that the holidays under the term system come at a more suitable time of the year, so far as weather is concerned? —Tes. I am much in favour of the three-term system, provided the sum total of the holidays throughout the year is not materially increased. 6200. The Chairman.] AVhat arrangements are made for the periodical examination of the school ? —I believe the Board of Governors have made arrangements for annual examinations. 6201. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Does the High School receive any boys who hold scholarships under the Board of Education ? —There are five provincial scholars now at the school. 6202. Do you know if any arrangement has been made for acting upon the requirement of tho Education Act in this respect, that schools receiving such scholars shall be subject to inspection by an Inspector of Schools? —I am not aware. 6203. Do you know if there has been any such inspection as required by the Act ? —No ; I do not think so. 6201. Regarding inspection as distinct from examination, do you think that high schools should be subject to inspection by any outside authority ? —Tes. 6205. Have you formed any opinion as to the authority by whom this inspection could be best conducted —whether by the Government, the Board of Education, or the University ?—I bave not formed any opinion on that point. 6206. The ChairmanJ] Is there any system of giving prizes in the High School ?—Tes. The Board of Governors annually vote a sum of money for prizes to be given at the December examinations ; and, in addition to these, there are prizes given by tho Chamber of Commerce, the Mayor, and other friends of the school. 6207. Are these prizes given as the result of the examination, or as the result of tbe past halfyear's work, or are they awarded upon a combination of the two ? —Some of the special prizes are given on examination, but the bulk are given according to the results of the class-work and the examination combined. 6208. AVhat punishments are in use in the school ? —Corporal punishment is administered in certain cases, but not frequently, and the general punishment is by keeping the boys in and impositions. 6209. Do you think that the examination prescribed by the New Zealand University for tho junior scholarships is a suitable examination ?—I think the range of age (fifteen to twenty-one) too wide. An examination suitable for young men of twenty-one is surely too difficult for boys of fifteen. 6210. Are there any evening classes in connection with the High School ? —No. 6211. Do many of the pupils from your school matriculate at the Otago University ? —I notice in the last calendar the names of eleven old High-School boys amongst tho undergraduates. 6212. Is there any class being taught in the school with a view to matriculation at the next entrance examination ? —There are four boys studying with a view to matriculation.

Mr. D. Brent,

June 21, 1879.

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310

Mrs. Sum,

June 21,1879

Mrs. Bubn was sworn and examined.

6213. The Chairman.] You are Lady-Principal of the Otago Girls' High School ? —Tes. 6214. How long have you held that position ? —Eight years and a-half. 6215. Had you been engaged in teaching previously ? —Tes; for fifteen years. I had schools for that time, and I taught privately in Edinburgh before coming to the colony. There was an interval of six years between my two schools. 1 began ono when I landed in Australia. I married ; and after six years had to begin a school again ; and I taught in Geelong for seven years, when I got my appointment here. 6216. "What is the number of pupils at present attending your school ? —One hundred and thirtynine.

6217. Have the pupils to undergo any examination before admission to the school? —For the upper school they have. I can admit them to the lowest class of the lower school without examination ; but only to the lowest class. 6218. Is there any fixed minimum age?— The age is nine—or about nine. I have some younger who read better than some girls of twelve or fourteen. I may make an exception in such a case as that; but nine is about the age at which we admit them. G219. How many assistants have you?— Four female assistants and one master attached to the school, besides visiting masters for French, German, and science. 6220. By whom are the assistants appointed —by yourself or by the Board?—By the Board. 6221. Are you consulted before the appointments are made ?—Yes ; the testimonials are always sent to me for my opinion. 6222. Is there a boarding establishment in connection with the school?— Yes. 6223. How many boarders are there ? —There are seventeen at present. 6224. Under your charge?— Yes. 6225. Are there any charges for extras at the school ? —Yes; for music, dancing, and gymnastics. 6226. Are the modern Languages taught free?— Yes; they are included in the course. 6227. What vacations are there ? —Between seven and eight weeks at Christmas, a fortnight at midwinter, two days at Easter, and two at Michaelmas. 6228. Rev. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the division of the year into four quarters, with holidays such as you have mentioned, is preferable to a division into three terms ?—I have had no experience of the terms. I sometimes think that three weeks' interval would not be bad, and sometimes fancy the terms would not be a bad arrangement for the work of the school. My reason for coming to that conclusion is that several of my best workers have every year " given in " during the last quarter. Very many of those who work best are not strong, and they give up then; and I think if they rested "during a better time of the year than the midwinter holiday they would possibly be able to finish the year. It is a question which I have debated with myself many times, and wondered whether the term system would work better than our present arrangement; but I have had no experience of it yet. 6229. Tlie Chairman.~\ Do any of your pupils come from the public primary schools ?—-Yes. I anticipated that question, and looked over my roll last night; and I find that half of the present number of pupils have attended district schools before coming to me. I did not reckon those who had attended private schools after leaving primary schools ; and they constitute about a third more. About half of the school —71 out of 139—came direct from primary schools. I could not give any answer with regard to former years. I have always a prejudice in favour of those who come from primary schools; I find them better prepared for our work. 6230. Do any of these pupils who come from primary schools hold scholarships at the Girls' High School ?—Yes ; there is one who holds a scholarship from the Education Board. 6231. Are any of your pupils at present studying with a view to competing for the Education Board's scholarships? —Two are preparing for the junior and one for the senior. I have it in view to send up some for University scholarships next year, not this; they are too young at present. 6232. Did the girls who held scholarships in your school pay the ordinary fees, or did they get their tuition free ? —They got their tuition free. Ido not know about the girl who at present holds a scholarship ; but under the old rigime they did not pay fees. 6233. Are there any special scholarships offered for competition amongst the pupils of the Girls' High School ?—No. 6234. Mcv. TV. J. Hahens.'] Do you know whether any arrangement is made for acting upon one of the requirements of the Education Act, which is to this effect: that any school which receives Board scholars must be subject to inspection by a Public School Inspector ?—There has been no definite arrangement made for inspecting our school. Iv 1875 a special commission was appointed for the purpose. Two years after that the Board's Inspector examined the lower school, but only the lower school, and only iv English. 6235. And, so far as you are aware, no arrangement has been made to comply with this requirement of the Act ?—I do not know of any definite arrangement. I know it has been spoken about. 623 G. The Chairman.^ Are there annual examinations or half-yearly examinations held at the school ? —I hold quarterly examinations. Last year I held an examination every six weeks. I had a purpose in so doing. It was an experiment of my own. I thought it would perhaps help my work, and enable mo to see where deficiencies existed, so that I could apply the remedy sooner. This year I revert to the old arrangement of quarterly examinations'. 6237. By whom are the examinations conducted?—By the teachers. The results are recorded, and the prizes at the end of the year are determined according to these examinations. 6238. Rev. TV. J. Habens.~\ Do you think the inspection of the school, as distinct from examination, has any value ? —Yes, I think it has ; because in an examination only a minority of the school probably would give any very good result, whereas the same amount of trouble is taken in teaching them all. I think inspection by persons qualified to judge is a good thing in itself, apart from examination.

6239. Have you formed any opinion as to the authority by which such inspection should be directed —whether the Board o£ Education, the Government, or the University ?—I should feel

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disposed to say by the University. I think our school has a direct connection with tbat institution ; at least, that is the idea I have myself —that we are preparing our highest pupils witb a view to their going forward to the University. 62-10. The Chairman.] Which University ? —The Otago University, I suppose. I did not think of any one in particular. And with that idea I should like the inspection to be conducted by the University authorities. 6241. Do any of your pupils attend lectures at the Otago University ? —None at present. 6212. Have you ever had pupils attending the University classes ? —Yes; the junior mathematical class. About three years ago, at tbe time when a most efficient master left us, I thought it necessary, in order to carry on the work of certain advanced pupils, to take them to Professor Shand's classes in junior mathematics; but I found the work was too heavy for girls of school age. Mr. P. G-. Petde was sworn and examined. 6213. The Chairman.] Tou are Secretary to the Board of Education in Dunedin?—Tes. 624.4. How long have you held that office ?—Eighteen months. 6215. How long bave you been connected with the Education Office ? —About ten years. 6246. What appointment did you previously hold in the office ?—Clerk. 6247. Is tbe Normal School connected with your department ?—Tes. 6245. How long has it been established ? —Three and a-half years. 6249. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know how many students there are in the Normal School at present ? —There are fifty-two, of whom twenty-four receive maintenance allowance. 6250. Do the students pay anything for tbe instruction they receive ?—No. The students attending the Normal School who have served their apprenticeship as pupil-teachers receive £1 a week during the time they are in training at the Normal School. 6251. Is the £1 a week granted to young women as well as young men ? —-Tes. 6252. Do you find that the Normal School students, on completing their course, readily obtain occupation in schools?—Tes; more readily, I believe, than other teachers. 6253. Do you think the supply of teachers issuing from the Normal School is large enough to meet the present necessities of the district? —Not nearly large enough. Of female teachers there are about enough, but there are not sufficient male teachers. 6254. Will you inform tho Commission from what source the ranks of the male teachers are principally recruited ? —Within the last twelve months they have chiefly come from Victoria. I could not say where they came from before then. Of course in former years we did not require such a large number within such a short space of time as has been the case recently; for within the last twelve months the increased attendance at the schools under the Board has been something like four thousand. 6255. The Chairman.] What is the total attendance ? —The total average attendance last quarter was very nearly 14,000. 6256. Bey. W. J. Habens.] From what source is the income of the Normal School derived? —The Board gets an allowance of £2,000 from the Government, and the deficiency is made up out of the Board's ordinary fund. That is, in regard to the training department; tho cost of the practising department is provided in the same way as for any other primary school. 6257. Is the excess of tho cost beyond the £2,000 considerable ? —I should say it is about £500. 6258. Is any part of the rector's salary charged to the practising school ? —No. 6259. Is any part of the headmaster's salary charged to the training school ?—No. 6260. The Chairman.] Can you inform tho Commission how many scholarships are given by the Board of Education, and what is their value ?—There arc twelve at present —six senior and six junior scholarships. The value is £40 in the case of pupils who do not reside at home, and £20 in the case of pupils who live with their parents. 6261. Dr. MacdonaldJ] How many girls carried off scholarships at the last examination ? —Two. 6262. Are you aware that the Board of Education and the High School Board of Governors have recently passed a resolution giving provincial scholars at the Otago high schools free education, in addition to the scholarships ? —-Tes. 6263. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Eor what time are the scholarships tenable ? —Junior scholarships for two years, and senior for three years. 6264. Will there be any examination next year ? —Tes; it is the Board's intention to award scholarships next year. 6265. Then the cost of the twelve scholarships now current by no means exhausts the Board's resources in this respect ?—No. 6266. Professor Shand.] Can you tell us how many of the present scholars receive £40, and how many receive £20 ? —Eour receive £40, and eight receive £20. 6267. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you state what number of scholarships the Board expects to have current at one time when the scheme is in full operation ? —About thirty. 6268. The Chairman.] Is there any limit of age with regard to the pupils by whom these scholarships can be held ? —Tes; for junior scholarships, under thirteen, and for senior scholarships, under fifteen. 6269. Are these scholarships open to the students at the boys' and girls' high schools ?—Tes. 6270. And by whom are most of the scholarships carried off—by pupils from the country schools, or from the high schools in Dunedin ? —I cannot answer the question fairly from a single year's experience. 6271. How many district high schools are there under the Board ?—Eour. 6272. Do you find that there is a considerable amount of competition for these scholarships throughout the country schools ? —Tes, there was last year ; we have only had the one competition. 6273. How many candidates were there for the twelve scholarships ?—There were seventy-one candidates in the two classes. 6274. By whom was the examination conducted ? —By Mr. Petrie, Mr. Taylor, Mr. Fitzgerald, and Mr. White, one of the teachers in Dunedin.

Mrs. Burn,

June 21, 1879.

Mr. P. G. Pryde.

June 21, 1879.

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312

6275. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I understand that you are referring now to the first examination for scholarships under the Education Act? —Yes. 6276. Had the Board established any scholarships before the passing of that Act ? —Tes ; but they had all expired. The Board's old scholarship scheme came to an end on the abolition of the provinces. 6277. What arrangement has the Board made for carrying out the provision of the Education Act, section 51, as to the inspection of schools at which the Board's scholars are being instructed? —> With the exception of the High School, where I think there are six scholars, all the schools are under the Board's control, and subject to inspection by its Inspectors. 6278. And what does the Board propose to do with regard to the High School?—I do not think the matter has been considered yet. 6279. The Chairman.] What are the conditions under which these scholarships are held?—-The junior scholarships are tenable for two years, on condition that the holders during that time attend either the Dunedin High School, or any school under the control of the Board at which the higher branches of education are taught. The senior scholarships are tenable for three years, on condition that the holders shall, during the first year, attend any public high school in the educational district of Otago, and during the remainder of the period the Dunedin High School. 6250. Are the scholarships open to all comers, or are they confined to students coming from the Government schools ?—They are open to all comers. The condition is that the scholarships shall be open to children " whether attending public schools or not." 6281. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the Board of Education directly interested in the special classes in elementary science for teachers now being conducted by Professor Black at the University ? —No. 6282. Dr. Macdonald.] Are you aware whether these lectures are conducted under the auspices of the Educational Institute of Otago ? —Yes, I believe they are. 6283. The Chairman.] Are there any evening classes held at any of the primary schools in Dunedin for the instruction of young men engaged during the day ?—I do not think so. The evening classes that are held in Dunedin are conducted in connection with the Caledonian Society, and are carried on in one of the Board's schools —the Normal School. All the teachers employed in conducting these classes are in the service of the Board, and engaged in the schools in Dunedin. 628-1. Dr. Macdonald.] Is it within your knowledge that a class for chemistry in that connection meets in the laboratory of the High School, and has the use of all the apparatus there ? —Yes. 6285. The Chairman.] Is there any pecuniary aid given by the Grovernment to the Society for conducting these evening classes ? —No ; the Education Board gives the free use of the building, and pays for gas. 6286. Have you any idea how many students avail themselves of this opportunity of instruction ? —About four hundred. The subjects taught are, English composition, arithmetic, book-keeping, mathematics, engineering, and chemistry. 6287. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Could you state whether the character of the instruction generally at these evening classes is simply such as to assist those whose early education has been neglected, or whether it is such as those who have gone through the full course of the primary school may be glad to avail themselves of ? —I think it applies to both—there are advanced classes and elementary classes. I know there is a class for mathematics and a class for chemistry. 6288. The Chairman.] Could you state generally what is the difference between the curriculum at what you call the district high schools and that of the ordinary primary school ?—There is no difference in the lower standards ; Latin and mathematics are taught in the highest class. The district high schools are ordinary schools with an upper department added—an additional class, which is generally under the charge of the rector. 6289. Does the schoolmaster get extra remuneration for the upper department ? —The fees charged are divided among the teachers employed in giving the instruction. 6290. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In proportions determined by the Board ?—By tho school committee. I should mention that there is a fixed salary of £350 for the rectors of district high schools, and in the case of the second masters and mistresses they receive an additional £30. 6291. Then, as a matter of fact, the high schools are more expensive to the Board than other schools ? —Yes. The regulation of tho Board on this subject is as follows : —A fixed salary of £350 (bonus included) will be paid to the headmaster of every district high school; and £30 will be added to the salaries to which the headmistress and the first assistant master are entitled according to the scale in Rule 2 ; provided that the first assistant's salary, inclusive of his share in the fees, shall not be less than £200. 6292. Could you furnish the Commission with a statement showing, in the case of each of the district high schools, what would be its income from the Board supposing it were not a high school, and what is its income from the Board, it being a high school; and also showing how much is received from fees in each case, and how those fees are divided ? Sta.te_te-Tt showing the Incomes of the several District High Schools; also, the Incomes they would receive were they treated as ordinary District Schools.

Mr. P. a. Fryde,

June 21, 1879.

Name of School. Average Attendance. Present Income as High Schools. Income as District Schools. lamaru /awrence ... lilton 'ort Chalmers 435 282 317 392 £ 1,340 915 1,030 1,200 a. d. 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 £ 1,273 811 955 1,100 s. d. 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 Total £4,485 0 0 £4,139 0 0

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Amount of Fees received hy District High Schools during 1878.—Port Chalmers, £17 175.; Lawrence, £17 10s.; Oamaru, £31 10s.; Milton (no fees charged at this school; instruction in higher branches given free). Division of Above.—Port Chalmers : Rector, two-fifths, £7 2s. 9d. j first assistant (male), twofifths, £7 2s. 9d.; second assistant (female), one-fifth, £3 lis. Od.: total, £17 17s. Lawrence: Sector, £17 10s. Oamaru : Sector, five-tenths, £15 15s. ; first assistant (male), three-tenths, £9 95.; second assistant (female), two-tenths, £6 65.: total, £31 10s. Mr. W. S. Fitzgerald was sworn and examined. 6293. The Chairman.] You are rector of the Normal School in Dunedin?—Yes. 0294. How long have you held that position ?—Three years and a-half. 6295. Had you any experience in normal-school work before your appointment to the post ?—Not as a teacher. Having been trained in a normal school, I had experience. 6296. "Were you the first rector of the Normal School ? —Yes. 6297. It was established under your charge ?—Yes. 6298. AVhat proportion of the attendants at the school are students as compared with the number of pupils ? —We keep the attendance in the two departments distinct. In the practising department we have an average of about six hundred and thirty ; in the training department the attendance is fifty-four —thirteen males and forty-one females. 6299. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Had many of these been teachers before they came to you ? —About one-half ; but I cannot give you the exact number. 6300. In what capacity ?—As pupil-teachers and teachers in charge of schools. 6301. The Chairman.] What is the special course of study for these students ? —The course prescribed by the regulations for examination in E and D certificates ; and also preparation for higher certificates by means of work done in connection with the University. 6302. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is all the instruction necessary for a. D certificate given in the institution'? —Yes, the whole ; but the optional subjects are limited to Euclid, algebra, and German. 6303. And students who wished to take other optional subjects would get their instruction at the University ? —Yes. "We purposely exclude Latin. "We consider that we cannot give such training in Latin as is desirable in the short time we have the students with us. Those who are capable of profiting by tho class at the University, we advise to attend the University ; for those who are not, we consider it better to take German at the Normal School. 6301. The Chairman.] Could you give us a general idea of the number of students who have been turned out of your Normal School as teachers ?—I think lam within the mark when I say seventy or seventy-five. That number does not include the teachers already in schools, but who had their holidays extended to permit their spending oue, and in some cases two, months in the Normal School. 6305. Is there a constant demand throughout the province for students who qualify themselves under your tuition as teachers ?—There is. 630 C. Bey. W. J. Halens.] Is the supply of students at all adequate to the demand which exists for teachers ? —The supply is not adequate for male teachers, and, until this year, has not been for female teachers. 6307. Have you been able to form any opinion as to the reason of the disparity as between the sexes ?—I think that the salaries ofi'ered to male teachers do not form so strong an inducement as the salaries offered to female teachers —that is to say, with the exception of our larger schools. Most of our male students have been appointed either as headmasters of small country schools, or assistants in large schools. 6308. The Chairman.] What are the students charged ?—They pay no fee. Some, instead of payin" fees, receive maintenance allowance at the rate of £1 per week. All do not receive maintenance allowance. Hitherto all who have passed the entrance examination have received maintenance allowance, but this year the sum granted by Government has not been sufficient to give maintenance allowance to the whole class; only those who have been teachers or pupil-teachers have received the allowance. 6309. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Though the others have passed?— Yes. 6310. The Chairman.] What is the nature of the entrance examination ?—The entrance examination is the first-class pupil-teacher examination —the last examination passed by pupil-teachers. 6311. By whom is the entrance examination conducted ? —By myself and the headmastei*. Pupilteachers, however, and teachers in charge of schools, are entitled to entrance without examination, the former having already passed the examination as pupil-teachers. 6312. Bey. W. J. Habens.] And are they entitled to tho weekly allowance without examination? —They are. Teachers in charge of schools are admitted without examination on the recommendation of an inspector. 0313. Is tho entrance examination very much higher than the Sixth Standard examination for the schools ? —Considerably higher. 6314. Are there additional subjects in it? —Yes ; the candidates have a choice of Latin, French, Euclid, or algebra. 6315. Professor Shand.] How many of these subjects have they to take ? —They are compelled to take one. 6316. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the standard of examination in arithmetic and grammar, for example, much higher than the Sixth Standard ? —Considerably higher. 0317. Would a syllabus of the examination be apparently higher, or do you make the distinction simply by reason of the greater severity of the examination? —The syllabus is apparently higher— quite as high as the old Otago third-class certificate examination, with the addition of the optional subject. 0318. The Chairman.] Could you give us a general idea how you so arrange matters that the normal school department does not interfere with the ordinary school-work of the pupils ?—You refer to the means we adopt to give the students practice in teaching ? 40— H. i.

Mr. P. G. Pnjdc.

June 21,1879.

Mr. Fitzgerald,

June 21, 1879.

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0319. Yes ; and also the teaching you give them through your own masters ? —With regard to the teaching given by the masters, the time-table of the practising school is so arranged that the master required by the students is set at liberty during the hours he is required, his class being engaged either at drawing, drill, or some other extra subject. For drawing and drill we have visiting masters. In some cases Mr. Montgomery, the headmaster, or I, have taken charge of the teacher's class. To prevent the pupils suffering from the practice of the students the latter are carefully instructed in the subject which they are to teach in the practising school, with a view to their teaching it as well as possible. A great part of the work is done in draft-teaching —that is, large classes are cut up into small drafts, so that the pupils receive almost individual instruction from the students. The master whose class is cut up himself takes charge of a draft composed of the laggards in the class. The teaching by the students is superintended by myself and the headmaster. 0320. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How far is the master of a room responsible for the work done by the students who may be teaching under his eye?—We do not hold the master responsible. While the students are teaching he is engaged doing what we consider valuable work —work that more than compensates the class for any possible loss. The headmaster and I hold ourselves responsible for the students' work. 0321. You never in any instance require a report from the master of a room as to what the students are doing ?—We do receive reports, but seldom. 0322. And not as a matter of course ? —Not as a matter of course. I may add that each student is furnished with a notebook, in which are the names of the pupils in the draft he has charge of. When the lesson is finished he enters notes of the work done for my inspection. Those notes treat not only of the work, but also of matters of discipline. 0323. The Chairman.] Are the' students all taught iv one class, or are they divided into separate classes?— They are taught in one class. 0321. How many hours a day are the students under tuition ? —Five hours. 0325. I mean as distinct from the teaching they do themselves ? —They are three and a-half hours under instruction. 0320. And does that only leave one hour and a-half for experimenting as teachers ?—Yes. G327. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What stay does each student make in the institution as a rule ? —The average is one year. 0328. Have you found much less than that to be of any real benefit to students tolerably well instructed in the ordinary subjects of school-teaching ?—I found great difference in the students. Some will make very great advance in a shorter time in the art of teaching, while others will make very little. 0329. Professor Sale.] You said that each student was under instruction three and a-half hours a day ? —Yes. 0330. That does not, of course, include the time he has to devote to preparing for this instruction ?—No. 0331. Then what time during the day do you think each student will require to be actually working in order to do himself justice ?—He would require to have fully four hours for private study. 6332. In the case of students attending lectures at the University, you deduct one hour from the three hours and a-half ?—We have a two-fold arrangement for students attending the University. Six of our students are attending two classes at the University—Latin and mathematics, or mathematics aud chemistry. During the University session those students are set free from Normal-School work. 6333. From the whole of the three hours and a-half ? —From the whole work of the Normal School —the whole five hours. They have been either teachers in charge of schools or pupil-teachers, and have shown themselves well acquainted with the art of teaching. The students who take one class at the University are set free for an hour or two hours, the time depending on the work done in the Normal School during the different days. 0334. Professor Shand.] What is the number of your students at present attending the University ? —Six males and eight females are attending the University. Five are taking Latin, eleven mathematics, two chemistry, one mental science, and one French. 0335. The Chairman.] Have they to pay any fees at the University ?—They pay the usual fees. 6336. Professor Sale.] Those students, then, who take two classes at the University have no other work than University work to do ?—No. I do not, however, count taking the chemistry lectures and the laboratory as two classes. The two classes are Latin and mathematics, or mathematics and chemistry. I consider these furnish sufficient work. I should state, in connection with this point, that these students are required to report to me, periodically, their attendance and the results of their examinations. Should these not prove satisfactory, they will be recalled to the Normal School. Of the six who are taking two classes, four are matriculated students. 6337. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would these students be in precisely the same position if the Board of Education, instead of admitting them to the Normal School, gave them scholarships of £50 a year each in the University ? —They would not. Though free from Normal-School work, only two have required the entire freedom; the others, of their own accord, attend certain classes, and partially prepare for them. Having to report periodically on attendance and results of examination, they are under Normal-School influence during the University session, and, at its close, will return to the school. 6335. And resume its full work?— Yes. The Normal-School work, however, is arranged in two sections. During the University session we take one specially suited to the students who remain with us. Between the end of the University session and the March examination we shall take another section in which special attention is paid to subjects omitted in the other section, with a view to benefiting those who are attending the University. In illustration of that, I may mention such subjects as elementary science, history, and the greater part of the science of teaching. The school management taken during the University session is chiefly practical, with just as much theory as ia necessary to carry on the practice.

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6339. The Chairman.] Has your Normal School been framed on any particular model ?—I have followed to a considerable extent the practice of the Free Church Training College, Edinburgh, but have departed a good deal from the practice there in the manner in which I conduct the practice of teaching. 6310. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are your students more fully engaged in the practice of teaching than is the case with the students of the Free Church Training Institution in Edinburgh ?—Much more so. 6341. And from your knowledge of the effects of the Edinburgh Training Institution and of your own school, do you consider yourself justified in the opinion which you evidently hold that the larger preparation in practice is necessary ? —I am fully persuaded of it. t may say also that the attendance at the University is a considerable improvement on the course followed iv the normal schools at Home. I believe that now the students at Home have the privilege of attending the University, but I think it has only recently been so. 6342. Do you think that the practical training that a student gets depends more upon the amount of time he spends in actual teaching, or upon the amount of supervision and guidance he receives while he is practising the art ? —He must spend a considerable time in the practice of the art; a short time, even with strict supervision, will, in many cases, fail to make him an efficient teacher. 6343. Supposing a pupil-teacher comes to you who has been engaged four years in the practice of teaching, do you think it likely that the practice which is permitted him in the Normal School, being under supervision, would be of more value to him than his four years' previous jjractice ?—I think not. In our schools in Otago most of the pupil-teachers are under skilful teachers, and for that reason I feel myself at liberty to give them the privilege of attending the University. They are deficient, however, in a knowledge of the science of teaching. AVhat they know of it they have gathered from their practice rather than from special instruction. 6344. Are you able to make any comparison of the aptitude shown respectively by those who have been pupil-teachers, and by those who have had no former practice, to make use of the instruction in the science of teaching when it is imparted to them ? —The pupil-teachers are the best in this respect. That fact, to a certain extent, has induced the Board to grant pupil-teachers maintenance allowance while denying it to the others. 6345. The Chairman.] Are any of the students instructed in either vocal or instrumental music ? —They are all instructed in vocal music, and most of the female students have been instructed in instrumental music. The latter, however, forms no part of their course. 6346. What evening work, if any, is done by the students?— They are supposed to spend their evenings in preparing for the work of next day. 6347. No tuition, then, goes on in the evenings ?—No. 6345. Are there any special examinations held? —Tes. Examinations are held periodically— monthly examinations and quarterly examinations. 6349. Conducted, I presume, by yourself and Mr. Montgomery?— Conducted by all those who have charge of instructing the students. 6350. Are prizes given?— No. 6351. Professor Shand.] There is no provision, I think, for boarding the students in training ?—No. 6352. Do you think it would be an advantage to have such provision ?—I think it would be a great advantage, especially to the female students. At present most of our female students are drawn from Dunedin and the neighbourhood, and the most of them remain with their parents, some travelling perhaps thirty or forty miles a day by rail. 6353. Are you aware whether there is any difficulty in finding proper accommodation for female students in Dunedin ?—I cannot say from personal knowledge. I think there is a difficulty, but I have not inquired particularly into the matter. The advantage would be not only the provision of suitable lodgings, but of proper supervision of health and conduct, which would give parents confidence in sending their sons or daughters to Dunedin. The superior conveniences and appliances for study which might at a small cost be provided, would also be to the advantage of the students. 6354. Tou mentioned that the Board had been obliged to withdraw the maintenance allowance from a number of the students. Do you think it would be an advantage to the school if the Government grant was such as to provide that allowance for all students in training ?—lt would be a great advantage. We have lost several promising students in consequence of the want of maintenance. 6355. What grant would be sufficient to defray the additional expense ? I mean how much in addition to the £2,000 ?—This year we would require another thousand. The maintenance allowance I consider absolutely necessary if we are to have male students. Toung men of eighteen or nineteen years of age will not remain two years in training, with the prospect of the salaries generally given in our public schools, unless they have maintenance. If they have maintenance and the advantages of attending the University, I think we can depend upon having a good class of students preparing for teaching. 6356. Bey. W. J. Habens.] But do I not understand that those who are eligible to attend the University are already in receipt of the maintenance grant ? —They all are; but we would have others whom we have had to deny. At present we have one, who is in receipt of the maintenance allowance, who was anxious to take Latin at the University, and who was well prepared, but could not afford it. Those who are attending tho University can receive assistance from their parents towards University fees, books, and so on. 6357. The Chairman.] With whom does it rest to say whether maintenance-money shall be granted or not ?—-With the Board of Education. 6355. Could you tell us generally how* the £2,000 grant is expended? Is it in maintenancemoney or in supplementing the teachers' salaries? —Speaking generally, £1,000 goes to maintenance, the remainder to teachers' salaries and a share of the expenses of the school. 6359. Do any of the students compete for the provincial scholarships ?—No; they are beyond the age.

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6360. With regard to the other branch of the school, I understand it is an ordinary primary school ? —Tes. 6361. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you be good enough to state what features, distinct from those of an ordinary primary school, have been at any time introduced into it ?—Wc have recently introduced four model schools, corresponding with country primary schools, in which the students will acquire experience in school-management, in addition to what they have already received in class-teaching. 6362. I understand that in the Normal School the classes generally are much larger than your teachers would expect to find when they went out to schools to which they might be_ appointed, they would very likely have to deal with small schools, aud these model schools you mention are representative of the smaller schools ? —Tes. Hitherto our students have found themselves at considerable disadvantage in taking charge of schools containing four or five classes, aud being required to conduct these classes unassisted. 6363. I think you stated that singing and drawing were taught throughout the school?— They are. 6364. Is military drill taught ?—Tes. . 6365. And is there anything equivalent to that for the girls ? —Tes; to a certain extent drill is taught to the girls. Wo have not commenced to use the gymnasium yet, but it is almost ready, and a master has been appointed. 6366. And do the students all receive instruction in drill and calisthenics, so that they may be able to impart the instruction when they go out ? —Tes. 6367. From your knowledge of students of both sexes, do you find any difficulty in getting the young women to master the subject of arithmetic ?—The young women have hitherto shown themselves as capable of mastering it as the young men who have been with us. In some cases the young women have surpassed the young men. 6368. Then would you be disposed to say that the deficiency in arithmetical knowledge shown by many female candidates for certificates, for example, is rather a sign of defective education than of a want of capacity? —I should consider that to be the case. There is oue matter I would like to refer to with regard to the subjects for examination. I should like to have reconsidered the possibility of finishing geography and history during the pupil-teacher course. I feel convinced that we could be more profitably employed with our students if we were set free from these two subjects. Tho time spent at geography and history would suffice to give excellent iustructiou in English grammar, in Latin, or in mathematics, and thereby confer a great benefit upon our students. '6369. Tou are speaking now of the examinations for teachers' certificates? —Tes. Their knowledge of geography and history, however, would require to be secured before they entered the Normal School. 6370. So that, unless the Government took over the pupil-teacher examination as well as the other, the Government would have no guarantee except such as is afforded by outside authorities?— They would have no guarantee ; but I think it would be well if we had a uniform pupil-teacher system, as we have in the elementary schools, and in our examinations for teachers. 6371. Do you think that the time spent in preparing for the examination in geography is very much increased if tho examination is of a kind that requires minute topographical knowledge? Supposing that the examination were very largely concerned with the principles of mathematical geography, would you have the same objection to it that you have now? —Certainly not. It is the time spent in acquiring the minute topographical knowledge that I grudge. 6372. The Chairman.] Is there any other remark you would like to make on the subject of examinations ? —Were it possible, I should like the students who have taken passes at the University of Otago, or the Canterbury College, to be excused from the subjects as optional subjects in the D examination. They will havo gone in their University class beyond the amount prescribed for the D examination ; but in the interval between the close of the University session and the March examination they will require to keep their knowledge on the subject fresh by revisal. I I'eel that when these students return to the Normal School to complete the Normal School syllabus their time will be fully occupied. lam aware of the difficulties in the way of such a proposal; but I think if it were adopted a great boon would be conferred on our studeuts. 6373. Professor Shand.] If it wero the case that the D examination was conducted under the authority of the University of New Zealand, and that the examinations took place in November, would that go any way to meet your objection to the present arrangement ? —lt would. The students would come to the examination fresh irom their University studies, and we would simply have to alter the division of the Normal-School year. Mr. D. Peteie was sworn and examined. 6374. The Chairman.] Tou are Inspector of Schools for the Educational District of Dunedin ?— Tes. 6375. How long have you held that office ?—Eive years and a-half. 6376. Would you tell the Commission what number of scholarships are established by the Board of Education in this district?— There were twelve offered last year. 6377. Is there a general desire amongst the country schools to compete for these scholarships ?— Tes. 6378. I believe these scholarships are also open to the students of the High School ?—They are open to all comers of certain ages. 6379. What is the limit of age ? —For the junior scholarships the limit of age is thirteen years, and for tho senior scholarships fifteen years. 6380. Is it part of your duty to inspect the Normal School ?—lt is part of my duty to inspect the day-school in connection with the Normal School. 6381. But not the training department?—lt depends ou the interpretation of the Education Act. lam not quite sure how it should be interpreted. As I read it, it belongs to the Education Depart-

Mr. Fitzgerald,

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ment to examine the training school, and take control of it. But there does not seem to be any definite arrangement laid down by the Act for the control of the training school. 6382. Is there any attempt made iv Dunedin to make the elementary schools lead up to the secondary schools?— All the public schools have the course of instruction laid down by regulations under the Education Act, and in these schools four hours a day are always taken up in the subjects of instruction required under the Act. Tn some cases--they are not very numerous —there are extra subjects studied —elementary mathematics for the most part, and occasionally Latin and French; but nothing further, so far as I know. 6353. And these are subjects outside the course prescribed ?—Yes. Then there are the district high schools, which are intended to bridge over the interval between the public schools and the secondary schools, or even the University. 6384. What constitutes a district high school?— They are constituted under the Education Act. They differ from an ordinary public school in making it part of their aim to give instruction in such subjects of higher education as there may be a demand for. These subjects are quite unlimited by the Act, but practically they are not very numerous. I may mention as subjects that are so taught, Latin, Greek —very elementary —algebra, geometry, trigonometry, Erench, higher arithmetic, and higher English. 6385. Is the headmaster of the elementary school the master who instructs in these higher branches, or is there a special master for the high-school department ? —There is no distinction between the high-school department and the school as a public school. The headmaster is headmaster of the high school as such, the high school being a public school with the addition of, perhaps, an extra class, or, at any rate, a number of extra subjects, to the usual routine of study. The instruction in the extra subjects is given chiefly by the headmaster, and partly by the first assistant. 6386. Bey. W. J. Habens.] So far as your experience goes, is the ordinary elementary instruction, such as would be imparted in a simple elementary school, at all neglected in these district high schools? —I think the ordinary programme of study is as fully and as efficiently carried out in these schools as in others. 6387. And how are the masters remunerated for the higher work they do?— There isa fixed salary of £350 in the case of tho headmasters of the district high schools, with a residence provided ; and the first assistant master receives £30 in addition to the salary to which he would be entitled under the Board's regulations, this addition being made to secure a teacher of higher scholarship. 6388. Are these additional expenses covered by the fees which the. children pay for the higher branches ?—No. The fees are handed over to the School Committee to be divided amongst the masters in such proportion as they think fit. The fixed salaries of the headmasters and of the first assistants are provided entirely by the Education Board out of the usual grant for the support of education. 6389. The Chairman] Is there a fixed scale of charges for the district high school ?—The fees are fixed by a regulation under the Education Act. 6390. What are the fees ? —Ten shillings a quarter. 6391. Is it competent for every large primary school to grow into a district high school, or is there any regulation whereby they attain the position? —Any large school that is isolated, and where no other provision for secondary education exists, may bo raised into a district high school; but if there is provision for higher education in tho same district, as in Dunedin, I think the Education Board would be reluctant to establish a district high school in the neighbourhood. 6392. How many district high schools has the Board under its charge ?—There are four district high schools in this district. By the Education Act the sanction of tho Minister is required for the establishment of any additional high school. 6393. Professor Shand.] All the district high schools in Otago were established as district grammar schools, were they uot, before the passiug of the present Education Act? —Ye 3; they were all in existence before the existing Act came into operation. 6391. The Chairman.] Has auy application been made during your term of office to have a primary school brought under the category of a district high school ?—AVe have had one or two such applications. 6395. How were they dealt with ? —Tbey were not granted, for the reason that the work in tho schools was very elementary, and tbe circumstances of tho districts did not appear to warrant the establishment of district high schools in them. Ono application of this nature has been dealt with during the last year. In that case the highest standard reached by any pupil iv the school was the Fourth Standard. It would hardly seem necessary in such a case to provide for the teaching of any extra subjects. 6396. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are the existing district high schools in the four largest centres of population outside of Dunedin?—l believe so. 6397. You do not know of any schools beyond Dunedin or the suburbs larger than the smallest of these district high schools ? —No. 6398. Professor Shand.] What is the attendance in the upper department of these schools ?—The number of pupils taking extra subjects arc —at Milton High School, 43 ; at Port Chalmers, 30; at Lawrence, 34 ; and at Oamaru, 39. The great majority of these pupils are doing the work of the Fifth and Sixth Standards, and cannot be said to constitute an upper department. 6399. Is it your opinion that the secondary instruction —I mean the instruction given in the upper departments of these district high schools—is really an important matter for the province ? —I think it is important. Very substantial work is done in one or two of the grammar schools. Some are situated so close to Dunedin that probably most of the students who would do advanced work are sent to the Dunedin high schools. But in the cases of Oamaru and Milton, especially, I think there is important work done. 6400. You mentioned, I think, that in the ordinary primary schools, which are not district high schools, there were in some cases additional-classes. Are you aware whether these additional classes have increased or diminished since the passiug of the Education Act ?—I think their numbers are very much the same.

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June 21, 1879.

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6401. Do you think the passing of the Education Act has had no tendency either to encourage or discourage them ?—lt has had no tendency to encourage them, at any rate, by reason of the time required to be given to the prescribed programme of study. Four hours a day must be devoted to these subjects in all circumstances. 6402. To the upper branches of education ? —No; but to the elementary subjects required by the Act. In all schools it is imperative that four hours a day be devoted to the subjects of instruction laid down by the regulations of the department. 6403. Are you aware whether it is customary to charge fees for those extra subjects taught in the primary schools? —I do not know any case where fees are charged. I know one or two cases where the instruction is given gratis. 6404. Do you think the fact that there is no power on the part of either the teachers, the committees, or the Education Board, to exact fees for such extra subjects tends to discourage the schoolmasters from taking up such classes ? —I have little doubt it may have a tendency of that kind. In Victoria, where the ordinary subjects are supplemented by extra subjects there is a fee prescribed ; and this arrangement has led to a great deal of work additional to the programme-work being done in the schools. Indeed, the fees for extra subjects have there materially increased the salaries of the teachers in many cases. 6405. You think it desirable, then, that the committees or the Education Board should have the power of charging fees for such extra classes? —I think it would be desirable that they should have the power of charging a small fee, which, while it would remunerate tho teacher, would not discourage the taking of the subjects. 6406. In the absence of any such power to charge fees iv the primary schools would you be in favour of one or more of the Dunedin district schools being declared a district high school ? —I think that, on the whole, it would hardly be advisable to declare any school in Dunedin a district high school. It would come into conflict with the existing high schools, and probably there would be two institutions to do the same work. 6407. If you consider the fact that the fees in the High School are four times as high as those charged in the district high schools, do you not think that providing a district high school in Dunedin would meet the wants of a certain class who are not able to pay the fees at the High School ? —I do not doubt that it would be a convenience to many ; but I think the end is largely attained already by the teaching of the extra subjects gratis, and that the recognition by the Act of specified extra subjects, with prescribed fees, in connection with the primary schools would be sufficient to meet the case. 6408. The Chairman.] Do you find any difficulties in the management of the district high schools ? —We find it difficult to give the headmaster sufficient time for superintending the classes not under his immediate charge. His time is mainly taken up in taking the highest class in the programmesubjects and in the extra branches, and in one or two cases I am satisfied that the general efficiency of the school has suffered from the almost exclusive occupation of the headmaster in this work. The first assistant is generally engaged during the greater part of the day in taking the programme work of the Fifth Standard, and is therefore unable to relieve the headmaster, to any extent, of the programme-work for the Sixth Standard ; while any extra time he may have must be devoted to assisting the headmaster with the extra subjects. Another difficulty encountered consists in the fact that the staff is too limited for the amount of work to be done. The Education Board has to make provision for these district high schools out of the ordinary capitation allowance received from the department, no special subsidy being received for the support of this higher work. As a district high school is more costly than a public school of the same size, I think it is reasonable that the department should make a special allowance for their support, such as would enable the Board to give them a more liberal staff, equip them more fully for the higher work, and set more of the headmaster's time free for general superintendence. These are difficulties which I have felt a great deal in advising about the organization and management of these district high schools, and I am satisfied that the only way to remedy them is to have an additional master —in fact, to supply to each of these district high schools one master in excess of the number that would be supplied to a primary school having the same average attendance. To do this would probably absorb more money than the Education Board would be justified in expending on these schools, unless it received some special grant for carrying them on. 6409. Would you go the length of recommending that tbe secondary education administered in the district high schools should be wholly separated from the primary school education ?—-I should not go the length of recommending that at present. I should recommend that payment by results, or something of that kind, for the extra subjects, should be made to the Education Board by the Central Department for the support of the higher work in these schools. 6410. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the case may be met by the Board altering the scale of fees ? As I read the Act, I imagine the intention is that the fees should pay the extra cost of these schools. Supposing, for example, that in a place where a district high school is established for the benefit of parents who cannot afford to send their children, say, to the Dunedin High School, a fee were charged something more like the fee that is paid at the Dunedin High School ?—I do not think it would be advisable to raise the fees much above the preseut charge. 6411. Do you see any claim that the parents residing at Oamaru, Tokomairiro, Port Chalmers, and Lawrence have, greater than that of parents in other districts, to have secondary education imparted to their children ? —No. 6412. Do you think tbat the plan of charging one amount to cover all extra subjects that may be taught works well, or would it be better to have a special fee for each subject? —I think it would be better to have a fixed fee for each subject. The plan of charging one fee for all the subjects I find has the effect of inducing pupils to take a great many subjects —in fact, more than they can do justice to ; and the headmasters in one or two of the schools have got to fight against this tendency on the part of pupils to take up four or five subjects in addition to the regular programme, when two or three would be as much as they could fairly overtake. 6413. Have you formed any opinion as to the possibility of introducing a larger measure of what

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may be called secondary education into the primary schools, and as to the best means of doing it ?— I am of opinion that so much secondary education as is required in rural districts and in small villages could be readily given in the shape of certain specified extra subjects with specified fees, if the teaching of such were recognized under the Education Act, and instruction in them could be given in any school outside the four hours required for instruction in the programme. That method was largely adopted in Victoria. There they have no such thing as district high schools, and nearly all the larger schools have large classes that receive instruction in defined extra subjects, for which there are specified fees, and in many cases outside teachers think it w*orth their while to come and take charge of these classes, receiving the fees payable under the Act as remuneration. I see no reason why a similar system should not be applied in New Zealand to many districts where it would not be advisable to establish a district high school, and I see little reason why a system of this kind should not make it possible to supersede district high schools entirely. 6414. The Chairman.] Do you know if there is any provision made by the State in Victoria for giving secondary education in country districts ? —lt is usual in every school in Victoria to impart a certain amount of secondary education, provided the teacher is able to give the instruction. There is added to the general programme of study a number of special subjects for which special fees are fixed, and these may be taught at any school. C 415. In the school hours ?—I am not sure whether the four hours are not to be devoted to the ordinary subjects. I think it is so ;so that these special subjects must be taken outside the compulsory four hours. 6416. Professor Shand.] Has it not been proposed iv Victoria to have State schools for secondary education as well ?—These, I think, are intended to be grammar schools, pure and simple, without any elementary schools attached to them. Still, they would fulfil the functions of district high schools, and would be supported by the State out of special funds, and not out of the general funds for conducting elementary education, as is the case with the district high schools here. 6417. You mentioned Victoria. Is it not the case also in Scotlaud that the ordinary schools are expected to supply a certain amount of secondary education ? —I am not conversant with the arrangements for secondary education under the Scotch Education Act. 6418. "When you were acquainted with the schools in Scotland was not that the case ? —lt was certainly customary fifteen or twenty years ago, in every school where the teacher was able to give the instruction, to take any subject that might be required, and for very moderate fees. 6419. The Chairman.] Is the supply of schoolmasters tolerably equal to the demand in the district under your charge?—We encounter considerable difficulty in finding sufficient teachers for the smaller schools ; but wherever there is a fair salary we generally find a fair teacher for the position. 6420. Have you found the Normal School assist you much in supplying schoolmasters ? —We have found it very useful in supplying female teachers.

Mr. D. Petrie,

June 21,1879,

Monday, 23rd June, 1879. Present: Mr. G. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the chair. Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Eev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand, Dr. Macdonald, Professor Ulrich. Eev. W. E. Mulgan, The Eev. Dr. Stuart was sworn and examined. 6421. The Chairman.] I believe you are Vice-Chancellor of the University of Otago, and Chairman of the Board of Governors of the Otago High School ? —Yes. 6_22. How long have you held the office of Vice-Chancellor of the University?— About eight years. 6423. Were you previously a member of the Council ?—Prom the outset. 6424. You are aware that there was a proposal to amalgamate the New Zealand University with the Otago University ? —Yes. 6425. Can you tell the Commission how the proposal to amalgamate fell through ?—Mr. Pox, who happened to be in Dunedin shortly after the establishment of the Otago University, expressed great satisfaction with what we had done. In the course of conversation on the subject, he asked me if a colonial status would benefit our institution. On my stating that it would, he was pleased to say that he would do his utmost to obtain it for us. It was chiefly through his exertions that the New Zealand University Act of 1870 was passed. But, in consequence of the Council of the New Zealand University not being summoned till the period within which the amalgamation of the two institutions could be effected had expired, when the Council met in Dunedin they discovered that the time had expired, and that they were not under any obligation to give a locality to the New Zealand University. 6426. Then, do I understand that no opposition to amalgamation was shown on the part of the Otago University?—"We were most anxious for it, because our belief was—Mr. Pox led us to believe so —that amalgamation would secure the localization of the University here. 6427. Did Mr. Pox, at the period you allude to, see your University at work here ? —No ; it was not at work then. But he spent a month in Dunedin, and came a great deal in contact with the Council, and especially with myself, at that time. 6428. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you regard the failure to summon the first meeting of the University Council within six months as the sole or principal reason why the two institutions were not amalgamated ? —I do not think so. That is a tender point. 642.. The Chairman.] In your opinion is the mode of appointing the members of the Otago University Council a satisfactory one ? —I think so.

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G-130. I believe those appointments are for life ?—Tes. I may say—what most of ua know —that changes take place very frequently in colonial institutions, and our University Council has already undergone a considerable change. 6431. Do you think the Council, as at present constituted, is well fitted to manage the affairs of the University ?—I think it is fairly well fitted to do so. Allow me to add that the Professorial Board is charged with all matters connected with classes and internal organization ; so that really the Council has very little more to do than to elect the professors and manage the financial arrangements. 6432. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the Professorial Board, in making those internal arrangements, entirely independent of the Council?— Not entirely. I think that, generally speaking, the arrangements are submitted to the Council, and, as a rule, are always indorsed. 6-133. But, as a matter of form, the arrangements must be submitted to the Council? —Tes. The Council are responsible, and they ought to have some say in the matter. 6434. The Chairman.] What is the present financial condition of the University ? —At present we have got a little into debt —perhaps to the extent of £6,000 —mainly through our building operations. We have also, perhaps, been in rather too great a hurry to extend our professorial staff. But our dillicultie3 are not very great, and they are mainly in consequence of our building operations. 6435. Are you pinched for means at the present moment ? —We arc in debt to the extent of £6,000 ; but we have authority from the Government to borrow £10,000 at 8 per cent, on the security of our endowment—or, rather, of the rental of our endowment. We cannot mortgage the endowment itself. 6436. Professor Cook.] Does the interest come out of the fund available for University work proper ? I will explain what I mean. In a return made by the Chancellor of the Otago University to this Commission I find a sum of £4,600 put down for University work, salaries, and so forth. Will the interest come out of that fund ?—The interest will be a first charge on the income of the University. I may add that the University Council got permission to sell its first building in town, and sold it for £27,000 or £28,000 —a sum deemed amply sufficient to provide us with increased accommodation at the north end of the town. But the actual cost has exceeded the architect's estimate by something like £8,000, or even a higher figure. I suppose every one who has had experience in building operations knows very well that architects' estimates have to be supplemented to the extent of 20 or 30 per cent. The interest on the money to bo borrowed must come out of the amount mentioned in the Chancellor's report. But the leases of some of our runs are about to expire. For instance, there is one of 30,000 acres, not far from Dunedin, which will fall in in 1880; and the Assistant Surveyor-General assures me that, instead of receiving, as at present, £500 a year from that run, we will then get about £2,000 a year from it. It is at present let as a run ; but, on account of its being so near town, and the land being comparatively low-lying, we expect a revenue from it of £2,000 a year. I refer to Barewood Itun, which, I think, is about eighteen miles from Dunedin. 6437. The Chairman.] I thiuk you have stated that you have an overdraft at the bank of £5,000. What other liability have you ?—JNo other liability. 6438. Is the new building paid for ? —No. We have not succeeded yet in borrowing. 6439. Professor Shand.] Tou seem to admit that there is an overdraft of £5,000 at the bank ?— No. There is an overdraft of £1,000 at the bank, aud something like £4,500 due on contractors' account. 6440. The Chairman.] Is it necessary for you to borrow the whole sum of £10,000 in order to free you from your obligations ?—No ; but we think it will be necessary for us to possess £10,000 to carry on the University until we get the additional rents. 6441. Professor Shand.] So that part of this sum will be expended on the current expenses of the University ? —Tes ; of course part of it will be. 6442. Professor Cook.] And on apparatus ? —Tes ; and, one regrets to say, on salaries. But, at the utmost, it will only be for twelve or eighteen months. In fact, we might even now have had a large increase of revenue if we had given an extension of leases to the present leaseholders. But we were assured that we could make much more of our endowment by allowing the leases to expire. We have no great difficulties. 6443. When the University building in town was sold for £27,000, was it put up for sale by auction, tender, or any other kind of competition ? —lt was advertised for sale, put into the hands of agents two or three times, and ultimately we got an offer from the Colonial Bank. I think the best price was got at tho time. The property was looked after by several parties. One party thought of purchasing it for a great hotel. Those negotiations all came to nothing, but at last the Colonial Bank, through Mr. Cowie, bought it. 6444. Professor Shand.] Do you know the cost of tho building which was sold for £27,000 ? — Something like £35,000. That was for the building alone, without the site. But you must remember that the building was erected for a post-office in a very dear time, when material and labour were very high; and, having been put up by the Government, I dare say it cost a trifle more than it should have done. The foundations alone cost something like one-fifth of the whole. _ 6445. Do you consider that the site of tho building is in itself of great value? —Tes ; I consider it is of great value. 6446. Do you think there is any site in town equal to it ? —I think the site is most excellent. If the site had no building upon it, it would be of great value. 6447. Do you not think it would have been more to the advantage of the University to lease the property than to sell it ? —That question was before the Council, and we had a report from Mr. Petro on the subject. But the Council thought that the cost of management would be so very considerable, and the interest on money to build new premises so heavy, that, after all, the best thing for the University would be to sell right off. lam still of that opinion. 6447 a. Do you recollect what was Mr. Petre's estimate of revenue ? —I do not remember all the figures, but his estimate of income from that source was deemed much above the market value without a large outlay for alterations. 6447b. Can you give us the estimate ?—The Eegistrar would be able to give it to you.

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6447 c. I think it was £1,600 for the lower story. At that time were you not getting £250 for the basement story ? —The members of tho Council—many of whom wero business men —looked at the thing, and came to the conclusion that it was a wiser plan to sell the property right off. I agreed with that. 64_7d. Professor Sale.] At the time this building was sold was there any immediate necessity for selling it? Was the Council in want of money?—-No; but what induced us to sell was this: We were anxious to secure two things—dormitories for the students and houses for the professors. The Council was very much influenced by those two considerations. We have only to some extent succeeded in getting houses for the professors, and I am sorry to say that the dormitories for students are still only in the air. G448. Are the professors' houses of any practical use to the University without students' dormitories ? —Well, I believe they are. The Council desired very much to get houses for the professors and dormitories for the students. Personally, I attached extraordinary importance to the dormitories, and Ido so still. I find that in America, in connection with their colleges they have dormitories. I find, even in Scotland, that at St. Andrew's they have erected a hall for students; and since its erection tne attendance has increased. Classes now attend that University, since the hall was erected, who did not frequent it before—the Duke of Argyle's family, for instance. G449. Tou have hardly answered my question. I asked if the professors' houses, without dormitories, were of practical benefit to the University ? —I think they ought to be. I think it of importance that the professors should be resident somewhat near the University. At all events, it was done in tho interests of the University and of the professors, whether the houses are of service to the University or not. They were erected in the belief that the University would be benefited by the professors residing in the neighbourhood. I may say that the idea of having residences for them received an impetus by a remark of Sir Julius A^ogel. Seeing that the professors were scattered all over the place, he asked, " Why do you not locate them about the building, and create an academical atmosphere in the neighbourhood ? " 0450. Professor Shand.] Did the Council expect to be able to erect sufficient accommodation for the professors, and dormitories for the students, as well as the University buildings, for £27,000? — We did. Our notion was to have plain, unpretentious, but comfortable buildings. We knew that all the students would not expect dormitories. They were merely intended for students from the country and the other provinces. 6451. How do you explain the different result? —I have told you already. We were, in fact, grievously misled. We were told that the University buildings, including six professors' houses and dormitories for students, would not exceed £23,000. The architect's figures, backed by the statements of experienced contractors, were : University, £8,200; anatomical and chemical division, £4,130 ; six professors' houses, £6,864 ; and dormitories, £3,800. 6452. The Chairman.] Is that the total amount expended up to the present ?—lt is not the total. The -Registrar will tell you the total. 6453. Professor Cook.] You have not succeeded in getting the dormitories. What accommodation have you got for the actual total ?—I may say that before we accepted the plans we submitted them to the Professorial Board; and, although the plans they agreed to were reduced to some extent, yet they were not reduced as regards accommodation for classes—they were reduced only as regards anterooms, and rooms of that kind; so that before the University Council accepted the plans, they took the Professorial Board into their counsel, and had their opinion upon all those matters. 6454. Professor Shand.] Would you have any objection to produce the letters from the Professorial Board ?—Not the least. [Letters read, as follows .*] Sic, — University of Otago, Bth June, 1876. I have the honour to inform you, on behalf of the Professorial Board, that it learned with great satisfaction, from statements made on the occasion of the recent deputation to the Superintendent, that it was the intention of the Council to proceed at once with the erection of a portion of the new University buildings. There can be little doubt that the present state of suspense, if continued, would be injurious to the progress of the University, as the professors consider the time inopportune to ask from the Council the accommodation and appliances which are necessary for the development of the arts course. In support of this statement, I need only mention that a class for physical science has not yet been commenced, and it cannot be commenced without an expenditure for arrangements and conveniences which it would be inexpedient to lay out in the present building. With the view of assisting the Council to form an estimate of the expense of the buildings required for tho proper accommodation of the arts classes as at present arranged, and with a certain regard to the future, the Board beg to submit the following statement of the rooms which will be required:—Classics and English—Lecture-room and retiring-room; Mental science—Lectureroom and retiring-room ; Law and modern languages—Lecture-room and retiring-room ; Mathematics aud physics—Lecture-room, physical laboratory, instrument-room, small instrumentroom, retiring-room, and two large well-ventilated cellars ; Chemistry—Lecture-room, laboratory, private laboratory, instrument-room, retiring-room, and large well-ventilated cellar ; Anatomy and physiology —Lecture-room, dissecting-room, anatomical-specimen room, physiological laboratory, retiring-room, and large cellar; Natural science—No provision need bo made for the classes in this subject, as they could be most conveniently taught in the Museum; General —Library, writing-room adjoining library, Council-room, Registrar's room, spare lecture-room (to be fitted up as an examination-room), students' waiting-room, janitor's quarters. Without counting janitor's quarters and cellars, the number of rooms proposed amounts to twenty-seven. Of these, the library, of course, should be a large, fine room. Three lecture-rooms (physics, chemistry, anatomy), two laboratories (physics, chemistry), and the dissecting-room—in all six rooms—should be large—say, 36 by 22 feet. The other three lecture-rooms, the examination-room, the two instrument-rooms, and the students' waiting-room—in all seven rooms —may be smaller—say, 25 by 20 feet. Six other rooms i— namely, the anatomical-specimen room, the physiological laboratory, the private laboratory 41— H. 1.

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(chemistry), the smaller instrument-room (physics), the Council-room, and the writing-room (library) — might bo about 20 by 18 feet. The retiring-rooms and the Registrar's room —seven rooms —might be about 16 by 14 feet. It is desirable that tbe apartments for chemistry and anatomy should be placed in a detached building, or, at least, that they should be completely separated by interior walls from the other rooms. The Board would like to lay special stress ou the desirability of having Ihe laboratories well appointed and fitted up, as it is in them that the most important part of the scientific work of the "University will be done. The Board has not the special knowledge required to form an estimate of the sum—no doubt a considerable one —that would be necessary to provide the above extent of accommodation, but it has no reason to suppose that the expense would be beyond the present resources of the University. I have, &c, Johi. Shand, The Eev. the Vice-Chancellor. Chairman of Professorial Board. Sib,— University of Otago, 26th August, 1876. I have the honour, on the part of the Professorial Board, to inform you that at a meeting held to-day a conversation took place on the subject of the proposed new buildings for the University, and, in particular, on the probable expense of furnishing and equipping the laboratories, and of providing the instruments and apparatus required for class demonstrations. The Board desires to offer to the Council an estimate of the amount of this expenditure, as it will necessarily enter largely into their calculations and deliberations. In the opinion of the Board the things which are really essential to tho welfare of the University, and require to be immediately provided for, arc—an adequate amount of class-room accommodation, the proper equipment of the laboratories, and the purchase of the instruments and appliances necessary for efficient scientific instruction. These form the indispensable conditions of the educational success of the institution, and are therefore entitled to be considered first; the other matters, such as advantages of site, architectural effect of building, residences of the professors, accommodation for the students, &c, are subordinate. Without doubt, some of them are of importance, but they are not essential, and they must be dealt with according as the funds at the disposal of the Council will allow, after all that is essential has been provided for. The Board considers that to furnish the laboratories and provide instruments in a reasonably complete manner (although, of course, on a very limited scale as compared with similar institutions at Home, and especially in Germany) will require at least six thousand pounds (£6,000). This amount may seem large, but it is a sum that may very easily be absorbed in buildings or other works that would be of little real benefit to tho University ; whereas if expended as suggested by the Board, it would do much to place the University in the front rank of the institutions for the higher education in the Australian Colonies. The laboratories will also require a certain yearly expenditure for maintenance and the cost of assistance, and this circumstance should also be taken account of by the Council. In my last letter no reference was made to a central hall, or to the accommodation that would be required for the residence of students. Both objects, however, were fully discussed; but the Board considered that, if they were dealt with now, the cost of the buildings immediately required would be thereby doubled ; and it did not consider either of them as pressing. Indeed, the Board is of opinion that the question of the residence of students is one which should receive the most careful attention on the part of the Council before any expenditure having this object in view is incurred. It is a question, moreover, that can be dealt with at any time, and does not at all call for immediate settlement. Of course the Couucil understands that, although the accommodation proposed in my last letter would be sufficient for the present and the immediate future, the designs of the buildings should provide for very extensive additions. It is to be hoped in the course of time the arts faculty will become greatly developed, and that around it will grow up a school of medicine, a school of law, a school of mining and engineering, and perhaps various other schools or departments, requiring very extensive accommodation. Perhaps it would be sufficient at present to erect only one wing of the complete building, leaving the central portion and the other wing to be added as circumstances may require. I have, &c, Jon-* SnA_*D, The Chancellor, University of Otago. Chairman of Professorial Board. Sic,— Dunedin, 13th August, 1877. I have the honour, by direction of the Professorial Board, to inform you that in accordance with your desire they have carefully examined the plans for the new University buildings. The design marked "To B or not to B " the Board considers by far the most suitable, mainly for the following reasons: —It is more conveniently arranged than any of the others, and gives more accommodation. It also admits of easy extension, or diminution if the expense be found too great, and it puts the dormitories in a separate building. The Board is unanimously of opinion that, rather than curtail the accommodation, it would be much better to erect the building entirely of brick. In the event, however, of the Council deciding otherwise, they would respectfully point out that this plan is capable of affording all the accommodation that is immediately required, even if the whole of the right wing, both of the front and back building (scientific part), be for the present omitted. The Board, in view of the probable establishment of the school of mines, and other extensions of the University, believe that the scientific laboratories should, if possible, all be on the same block with the Museum ; and generally they are of opinion that a great saving of expense and increase of convenience would result were the whole building erected on the Museum Reserve. I have, &c., D. Macgkecok, The Chancellor, Otago University. Chairman.

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6455. If the proposals of the Professorial Board had been adopted by the Council, what do you estimate the expense of putting up the buildings in brick would have been ?—I really do not know. In this town we find there is scarcely a brick building that is sound. The brick is so inferior that it soon wastes, and would not give us anything like permanence. I would sooner build in wood than brick. I believe brick would have been cheaper; but at the time we had no good brick in town. 6156. I merely wish to ask your opinion, apart from the advisability of building in brick, as to whether the proposals of the Professorial Board could not have been carried out with the resources then at the command of the University Council—that is to say, whether buildings could not have been erected, with laboratories fully provided with instruments, and sufficient additions made to the library, with the monoy then at their disposal ?—I am not able to answer that question. My experience in erecting churches aud other buildings really prevents me from saying whether it could be done or not. I think the paper received from the Professorial Board was very valuable. It received full consideration, and the Council came to the conclusion that, as they were anxious to put up permanent buildings, they should be of stone, and be put up piecemeal. They might have been more cheaply put up in brick. 6457. If you are informed that the North Dunedin School, containing twelve large rooms, each accommodating a hundred children, has been erected for £6,500, do you think that the University, as recommended by the Professorial Board, could have been erected for £12,000 or £14,000? —We were told that the accommodation we required could be erected in stove for £17,000. Taking the North Dunedin School as a factor, I think the buildings you suggested could have been put up in brick for the sum you mention. lam only giving a rough opinion. I know the buildings could have been put up more economically in brick. In the comparison, it should be remembered that the University fittings are more expensive than those of common schools. The sitting accommodation in a University class-room for fifty students, done according to the directions of a professor, coat £155. 6458. The result is, that if the course recommended by the Professorial Board had been adopted, the Council would not only have £5,000 or £6,000 to expend ou apparatus which they have not now, but they would even have a balance to their credit, instead of being £5,000 in debt? —I do not think it follows. Ido not think the wisdom of the Professorial Board is so great that you can conclude a certain thing will follow because they have made an estimate on paper. Making an estimate and carrying it out are two different things. 6459. I do not say that it follows from the wisdom of the Professorial Board, but it follows from the figures which you gave us just now, by merely performing a sum in addition.—l merely give a very rough opinion. I say that, taking the North Dunedin School as a factor, the University might have been put up for the sum you mentioned. But it is easy to be wise after the event has occurred; and very likely, with the wisdom we have gathered, if we had to get the thing done again, we would make fewer mistakes. 6460. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the style of the North Dunedin School would satisfy you for a University building ?—I believe the Professorial Board were right in saying that style was not the first thing to seek after; but, at the same time, we had some old-world notions, and liked to have the University with some style about it. I may add that, although the University is at present in straits as regards means, yet we expect to be in ample means before five years are over, and, of course, to provide all the apparatus and all that is necessary for fully equipping the University. The Council have never lost sight of the necessity of providing many things yet wanting, but we remember that in these colonies Governments and all institutions have to grow somewhat slowly; and we fully anticipate being able to provide everything necessary, for the thorough teaching of all the branches we undertake, in the course of four or five years. 6461. The Chairman.] Has there been any attempt made to clear off your liabilities ?—Tes. We expect to have £10,000 in the course of this week. 6462. Were all the buildings included in one contract ?—No. We were obliged to have two contracts, because we wanted very special accommodation for the anatomical and chemical departments of the University. The second part of the University was a distinct contract. There was also a distinct contract for the professors' houses: three contracts in all. 6463. Is the building for the anatomical school completed?—Tes, and the contractor paid off long ago. 6464. Do you know what that particular building cost ?—lt is all included in the £24,000. That is exclusive of the professors' houses. The two contracts for the University alone amount to close on £24,000. 6465. Professor Cook.] What accommodation have you provided for those professors who have not houses at the University ? —One professor, who requires to reside in the country on the score of health, gets an allowance of £100 a year. 6466. Ido not mean that. Tou said anterooms were cut out of the plans. —There is fair accommodation. There is a common room for the professors, with necessary conveniences. 6467. The Chairman.] I understand you to say that there is a lodging allowance of £100 a year to one professor ?—Tes, to one professor. There are two without lodging allowance. I may say that a lodging allowance or house is not part of the contract with the professors, although there has always been a desire on the part of the University Council, when in funds, to make the professors as comfortable as possible. 6465. Do the Council contemplate erecting buildings for the other professors, or giving them all lodging allowance? —My belief is, that they intend to do so when in funds, but they refuse to commit themselves to it. Ido not think the Council would like to make fish of one and flesh of another. 6469. Professor Cook.] Then I suppose you think that for the present those two professors have no lodging allowance because they are the youngest ? —Precisely. Professor Hutton is in possession of a house purely through the ill-health or incapacity of Professor Sale to live in town. 6470. Professor Sale.] The original intention of the Council was to build six houses ? —Tes, if we had the means. 6471. Then would not the Council have saved a considerable sum of money, if they had adopted

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the course taken by the Canterbury College, and allowed the professors £700 a year each instead of £600 a year, and left them to find houses for themselves ? —lt is very likely ; but the Council were of opinion that the houses could be built in terraces at something like £1,000 or £1,200 each ; and then we always thought of the great advantage of having the professors near the University. We thought of that, aod were prepared to exceed probably £100 a year in interest in the hope of benefiting the University. 6-172. But when the students are scattered ail over Dunedin, is there any advantage in the professors residing close to the University ?—Yes, this advantage: that the professors can become better acquainted with the students, and probably may be in circumstances to invite them occasionally to their residences. At all events, it was in the interests of the University and of the professors that it was done. It is quite possible, as events havo turned out, that it would have been much better to pay the professors £100 a year, and to keep ourselves out of hot water. But it is easy to be wise behindhand. 6473. The Chairman.] Are you aware whether the late Sir John Bichardson, when Chancellor of the University, took pains to ascertain what was the value of the premises sold to the Colonial Bank ? ■ —Tes; he took great pains. He was deeply interested in everything connected with tho University, and entirely approved of the resolution to sell. In fact, it was through his influence that the new University was built upon its present site. During the years the negotiations for sale went on he took the leading part in them. He quite approved of the sale at the price which we obtained. I may add that in view of selling those premises we obtained a first-rate site on the road to Eoslyn, consisting of eight acres ; but Sir John Bichardson was so enamoured of the spot on which we now are —having lived in the neighbourhood when he was Superintendent —that through his influence Barliament consented to a change, gave us this site, and allowed us to part with the other. 6474. Do you know if the premises you sold were ever valued at a higher sum than £27,000 ? —■ Tes. We valued them at one time at £40,000, and gave the Colonial Government the refusal at that figure, and subsequently at £30,000; but Mr. Bradshaw and several other agents were employed, and a higher figure than £27,000 could not be got. 6475. Was there any feeling in Dunedin that the Colonial Bank had got a very cheap bargain in acquiring the premises ? —Some people, when the bargain was ended, congratulated the Bank upon its cleverness ; but those very people wanted the premises themselves for even a lower figure. The offer of the City Council was £21,000; of a private party £22,000. Neil and Co. intimated that they could get a purchaser for £25,000. But you know well that when a man makes a clever bargain for his institution he is generally congratulated. 6476. Have you any idea as to what the bank values the premises at in its assets ?—I forget. They value them highly; but they have laid out much upon them. They have laid out £5,000 or £6,000. The premises internally were ill fitted for the purposes of a University, aud before they could be so fitted a large sum of money would be required. 6477. Were the Council unanimous in selling for that sum ?—I believe they were. 6475. Were auy shareholders of the bank members of the Council?—Tes. I think, for instance, that Mr. Strode was chairman of the bank directors, and probably Mr. Eeynolds might also have been one of the bank directors, although Ido not know. I know that Mr. Strode was a director. But Mr. Strode took no active part in promoting the sale. He is a very honourable man. He, however, thought it was the best price that could be got at the time. 6479. Professor Sale.] I understood you to say that Sir John Bichardson agreed to the sale ?— Tes. I forget whether he was a member at the time of the sale; but he not only approved of the property being sold, but took an active part in looking out for a purchaser. 6479 a. At that price ? —He agreed to let Neil and Co. have the disposal of it, with a reserve of £27,000. He was a leading man in advocating a transference. 6480. In answer to the Chairman you said that Sir John Bichardson took great pains to ascertain the value of the property. What was the value he arrived at ? —He agreed to Jet it go for £27,000. 6481. Is it on record ? —lt is very likely. 6482. The Chairman.] The Otago University became affiliated to the New Zealand University. What object had the Otago University in affiliating ? —The negotiations for affiliation began with Canterbury College, and I think the Canterbury institution sent down Mr. Bowen and the Bey. Mr. Habens to advocate affiliation. We resolved, as the result of the conference, that if we could get the Act modified and certain changes introduced, we would agree to affiliation; but only on condition that we might withdraw whenever we pleased. The result of the conference was that the authorities of the New Zealand University agreed to ask for a new Act. An Act was passed which fairly satisfied us, aud which we believed secured fair attention to tho highor education. Down here we had a dislike to the affiliation of mere schools, and to the expenditure of the endowments of the University in subsidizing those mere schools. Until, at all events, that blot was removed we could never see our way to afliliation; but that evil was removed by the new Act, aud with Canterbury College we became affiliated. 6483. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Tou say that the affiliation of the Otago University took place on condition that the Otago University could withdraw from affiliation at any time. Do you mean that there was an expressed condition ? —I know that tho Council of the Otago University, when I was sent up, reserved that power, and it is on record. In fact we were not unanimous for affiliation. Some members thought we should still stand out; but they insisted upon the condition that we might withdraw whenever we liked. 6484. Was that a condition made between the delegates from Canterbury College and the Otago University ?—I was not aware of such a condition —I cannot precisely say whether it was insisted on as a condition when the conference took place. If you remember, the conference was only tentative. The result of the conference was that we were only to apply to the New Zealand University for a modification of the A.ct. But the Otago University made it a condition that they might withdraw. 6485. Can you refer to any document which shows that that condition was expressed as between the Canterbury College and the Otago University ? —I find it stated in the minutes of the Otago Council, of March, 1874, while the professors counselled affiliation, iv a letter signed by them

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they also suggested that provision should be made for reinstating the Otago University in its original condition in case of any unavoidable separation from the New Zealand University. This suggestion was in accord with the mind of the Council; but what use was made of that minute I cannot recollect. I know that the Council, in sending Mr. Cutten and myself up North, impressed this upon us: " If you think affiliation is beneficial, go in for it; but we reserve the power to withdraw." In fact, I think auy affiliated body cau withdraw. We only made that sort of condition because the Superintendent and some members of the Council were opposed to affiliation. They said, " You will repent it;" and we replied, '; We can withdraw at any time if we find that it does not answer our purpose." 6486. Professor Qook.~\ Were those changes made by the New Zealand University which the Otago University and the Canterbury College desired? —Yes. 0487. Well, if those changes were made, do you think the University of Otago retains the right of withdrawing, in honour ? —Well, our opinion now is, that the difficulties connected with examinations are so considerable, and so provoking and tiring to students, that, upon the whole, we would answer the ends for which we were established by conducting our own examinations and giving our own degrees. 6488. You said you entered into a kind of agreement with Canterbury College. Do you not think that the Otago University is going back on that agreement in seeking to withdraw without consulting Canterbury College ? —Probably we should have given notice to Canterbury College. 6489. Do you disapprove of the connection with the New Zealand University principally on account of the difficulties of examinations? —Yes ; that powerfully influences me. 6190. Do you think those difficulties are insuperable ? —I do not think so. After trying examiners in the colony and in Victoria, we are now seeking them in England. I am confident we have men, in our several scholastic institutions and outside them, in the colony, quite competent to examine for degrees. Ido not think it is creditable to our colonial professors and learned men that we should go to England for examiners. 6191. Would you indicate any course by which the difficulty might be avoided? —I have so much confidence in the men at the head of our educational institutions in this colony, that I would commit the examinations to them, in the full belief that the colony would accept their judgment in these matters as the judgment of honourable men, amply qualified for the work. 6492. When you say "the colony," you mean to include Wellington, and Auckland also ?—Yes. I believe the people would accept their judgment. 6493. Professor Sale.] Are you in that answer contemplating separate examinations, conducted in separate institutions, or one general combined examination for all the educational institutions ? —One general combined examination. That is all I looked for in affiliation. I would have you, or some other man equally qualified, to conduct all the classical examinations for the colony. 6494. Professor Cook.] Supposing there was an institution, or institutions, in the North Island similar to the Otago University, I suppose you would have no objection to the examinations for Otago men being partially conducted by them ? —I would entirely approve of that. 6495. Rev. W. J. Habms.] It is not in evidence, but it is known to us, that the Otago University has sent a memorial to the Crown, seeking for a charter, and complete, distinct existence as a University. Can you furnish the Commission with information as to the contents of that memorial?—■ It is a second application of ours. We applied for a Royal charter years ago, and our application did not succeed. New blood came into the Council, and the question was brought up again. A second application has been made, and I believe has been transmitted to the Government. 649 G. Does that memorial set forth the reasons which, as far as you know, are the principal reasons on the part of the University Council for desiring an entirely independent existence for the University ? —lt simply asks that we get this privilege in order to a more perfect fulfilment of the duties and functions of the University. It does not say a word against any other institution. It simply expresses the opinion that we would better perform the duties and functions of our University if we had the privilege. 6497. Can you furnish the Commission with a copy of the memorial ? —I think it could be furnished. I have no objection. 6198. The Chairman.] In becoming affiliated did the University surrender any of its powers ? —lts degree-conferring powers for the time being. By our old Act we can resume them at any moment. We agreed not to use those powers while affiliated. 6499. At that time was any opinion expressed as to a Eoyal charter. I find it stated in the University Calendar that you waived your claim to a Itoyal charter ? —Of course, when we affiliated we did ; but only for the time being. G5OO. Has the Otago University as yet absolutely determined to disassociate itself from the New Zealand University ? —No. 6501. A.nd while affiliated you make an application for a Eoyal charter? —Yes. With your permission I would like to state a view of the higher education which I have long entertained, and with which many of the people here are in sympathy. ~\Vg have difficulty in getting reconciled to the affiliation of schools, which lack the means of giving such instruction in classics, mathematics, and philosophy as we naturally look for in the higher educational institutions of the country. I would have, in Dunedin, a college with an arts faculty and schools of mining and engineering; in Canterbury, a college with an arts faculty and school of agriculture ; in Wellington, schools of law and medicine ; and in Auckland, a college with a fully-equipped arts faculty. lam of opinion that if something like that were done the higher education would be very fully provided for, and the old grievance of affiliating mere grammar schools would disappear. I believe that if such a course were taken it would meet with great acceptance, because it would be a move quite in the direction of higher education. By giving to leading towns one or two faculties, economy would be consulted, while at the same time the means of higher education would be extensively diffused. 6502. Rev. W. J. Habens.] If there were four such colleges, located as you suggest, do you think they should be separate Universities, or that the colleges should be co-ordinated under one University ?

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—I believe that, if the colleges were established in the way I suggest, it would be better to co-ordinate them. 6503. If such a plan were adopted, do you think there would be any desire in Otago to be separate instead of united ? —No. I believe, if that were done, there would be general concurrence in Otago, and in the Otago University. 6501. The Chairman.] Do you think the Otago University would consent to standon the same level ns Canterbury, Wellington, and Auckland, provided they had professors of the same standing as your University ?—I think so. 6505. Professor Shand.] Would you contemplate those colleges ultimately developing into separate Universities ? —I would ; when the population got very large. For instance, down hero we have an extent of country which, in fifty or sixty years, will certainly maintain two or three millions. With a feeding-ground like that, probably the wisest thing would be to have a completely-equipped University. Meanwhile, with a sparse population, I think the course I have suggested would be the best. 6506. Professor Cook.] Do you not think the degrees would have greater value in the eyes of the New Zealand public, and of the world generally, if there was only one University in New Zealand, while the population is so sparse ? —Perhaps so ; but, after all, I find that the people do not attach a very high value to a degree; for I have heard them remark of some who have a degree, that they are next door to "duffers." One's conclusionis, If a degree only means that, what is the great value of it ? Ido not undervalue degrees ; but I think, upon the whole, that the value of our higher institutions entirely depends upon the men who conduct them, and not upon the degrees. If you get men who are efficient and whole-hearted in the work, they will draw students and bring them from every quarter. That is the reason why I am so anxious that tho professors should have a good status ; for I know that upon them and them alone depends the proportion of the population that will swell the University. 6507. The Chairman.] Have you any acquaintance with the system of collegiate instruction founded by the late Sir Bobert Peel in Ireland ? —Yes. Not personally; only through reading and conversation with students who have attended there. 6508. I presume you know the system is, that several colleges were established which have no power of conferring degrees, the degrees being conferred by a combination of all those colleges into a University ? —Tes. 6509. Do you think that such a system would be suitable to the circumstances of New Zealand ?— I think so. I highly approved of the system at the time for Ireland, although lam sorry to say it has not been accepted in Ireland. 6510. Do you think the present salaries of the professors of the Otago University are sufficient? ■ —I think that no learned man, either minister or professor, is adequately paid ; but they must just do with the best we can give them. 6511. Is it contemplated to increase their salaries, or has the question ever been under the consideration of the Council ? —Well, their houses are intended to make them a little more comfortable. 6512. Has it ever been suggested that the professors, or some of them, should have seats in the Council ?—Yes ; and it was opposed by the Council. 6513. Do you not think that their experience as professors, and their connection with the University, would be advantageous to the Council ?—I think we get their experience and counsel as a Professorial Board. (3514. Are there any scholarships established by the Otago University ? —No. We have no funds for them. Wo have two scholarships in connection with the University; and some religious bodies, for their own purposes, give scholarships for the undergraduate course. There are none given by the University itself. 6515. Is there anything done by the Otago University to develop education at the Dunedin High School ? —I think the University indirectly influences the High School by its entrance examination, and generally by the influence of the professors. Some of them are members of the Board of Governors, some have been examiners, and some were ou the High-School Commission. In those various ways I think the University has influenced the High School. 6516. In your opinion does it, as a grammar school, come up to what it should be as a feeder to the University ? —Not as yet. In these colonies, and especially in a school popularly founded like this one, the masters cannot always determine the branches taught. We have been obliged, under the force of circumstances, to bifurcate tho studies. There is a modern side and a classical side. We find that as a rule there is a strange dislike to classical studies. The difficulty is to induce parents to continue their children sufficiently long to get any particular benefit. Besides, in my judgment, the High-School authorities have allowed an undue increase of subjects, making scholarship almost an impossibility. 6517. Bey. W. J. Habens.] When you say that there are sides, do you mean that separate classes are at work on commercial subjects, while others are on classical subjects?— Well, yes ; only those who take the modern side must take a modern language. If they choose they can obtain exemption from classics. It increases the difficulty of tuition. 6518. Professor Cook.] Is not Latin on the modern side ? —Latin is not necessarily taken on tho modern side. 6519. Professor Shand.] They do get some amount of Latin. Is not Greek the differentiating language? —Yes. The result is, that the Latin they get is,.comparatively speaking, worthless. If 1 had my way I would lay more stress upon Latin in the High School, and in that way I believe you would feed the University. 6520. The Chairman.] Is not the curriculum of the High School framed with a view to getting students for the University ? —No : still, it goes in that direction. Our great wish is to see boys passing from the High School to the University. In my humble opinion that will take place more and more in coming years. Hitherto there were half-a-dozen situations for every lad who reached the age of fourteen or fifteen years. That was a great temptation to leave the High School. Those situations are not so common now, and I think the University in coming years will have a larger number from the High School. 6521. Would not the establishment of scholarships have some effect in inducing students to study

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for the University ?—■ Probably it would; but I observe that tbe New Zealand University bas hitherto offered a great many more scholarships than have been taken. Scholarships have been redundant. 6522. Professor Cook.] But, seeing that those scholarships are for the whole colony, do you not think that the examinations are necessarily of a higher character than those for local scholarships would be ? —Tes. I am strongly in favour of scholarships. There is a proposal afloat in Otago to try by Act of Parliament to divert a part of the educational funds that belong to the Presbyterian Church, to the establishment of scholarships. 6523. The Chairman.] What system of examination is there in the Otago University ?—There is an entrance examination. Then there are class examinations, in some classes weekly, in others monthly or bi-monthly. I notice that the student who does not pass the final class examination is deemed to be plucked. 6524. Are there any prizes given on the occasion of the examinations ?•—There are some prizes given ; but, as a rule, I am sorry to say they have been given by the professors themselves, and not by the University. The fact is, the University has perhaps been too precipitate in establishing Chairs. Part of its difficulties have arisen from undue haste in establishing Chairs. Through being so anxious to provide a large teaching staff, they have crippled themselves in the way of giving prizes. However, that is only temporary. 6525. Has the Council abandoned altogether this idea of making provision for students from a distance ?—No ; I hope not. My confidence is, that ere long some of our moneyed men will show liberality towards the higher education, and will help us to provide many things which are now lacking. I have not lost all hope of some of them. For instance, in Scotland, Glasgow University got a quarter of a million, and Edinburgh University over £100,000, from private sources, for the erection of their buildings. lam still hopeful that before long some of our private citizens with means will enable us to provide accommodation for country students. 6526. Are there many students from the country taking advantage of the University ?—A considerable number. I expect to see here just what has taken place in America. Tale, for instance, gets about one-half of its students from the country ; and that ancient University, knowing this fact, conducts its entrance examination at the end of the first term, giving country fellows who have no great advantages an opportunity of rubbing up their scholarship and of passing with some credit. If they pass the entrance examination at the end of the first term they are considered to have fulfilled their term. The Scottish Universities have alwaj^s been much indebted to the country. lam sure that in Otago a great many students will come from the country. 6527. Has anything been done by the Council towards establishing a University library ?—Tes ; we have a University library. We call it a reference library. AYe asked the community to subscribe, and we got something like £1,200, for which the Provincial Council gave us pound for pound. 6528. What is the total amount expended in procuring the library ?—Eully £2,000 or £13,000. I cannot remember exactly. Each professor was allowed £50 for the purchase of such books as he thought would be suitable for the students sitting under him. 6529. Is there an annual sum set apart for making additions to the library ? —Not at present. Our difficulties have cut off that provision ; but on paper we have made provision. A resolution was passed that a considerable sum—£2oo a year, I think—should be expended on books; but during the last eighteen months I fear that has not been done. 6530. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In the event of the establishment of other colleges upon an equal footing, how do you think that the Senate of the University should be appointed ?—I would certainly give the Government, who provide the endowment, an opportunity of nominating a proportion of the Senate. I think the Government is especially in a position to look out for men of broad views and large experience. At the same time I would give to the graduates a considerable influence in the government of the University and in appointing members of the Senate. 6531. Do you think the authorities of the several colleges should have a voice in the matter?— I think so. They should appoint a proportion. 6532. Do you think that the professors as professors should have a voice?—Tes. I have no objection whatever to the teaching staff. I certainly think they ought to have voting power, because they are acquiring in the prosecution of their vocation a large and valuable experience, and I would be sorry to deprive the country of that experience. 6533. If the Government, governing bodies of colleges, professors, and graduates were all represented in the Senate, do you think that would make the Senate completely representative ?—I think it would. 6534. The Chairman.] Do you think that the professors themselves should be eligible for seats on the Senate? —I do not think that they should be excluded. As a man I have a great dislike to excluding men because of their occupation. I think if they were elected they should be allowed to sit. I think it is a wicked thing to exclude a man from a public office on account of his profession. Mr. William Hei-Nino Mansfokd was sworn and examined. 6535. The Chairman.] Tou are, I believe, Registrar of the Otago University ?—Tes. 6536. How long have you held that office ?—About five years and nine months. 6537. Who were your predecessors ? —Mr. Henry Clapcott and Mr. Livingstone. 6538. Would you inform the Commission how much money has been actually expended up to the present on the new buildings, including the detached building and the professors' houses?— The amounts have not all been finally passed, but, as near as it is possible to make it, the total amount is £33,547 lis. 3d. The separate amounts are: University offices (temporary), £798 3s. 6d; chemical division, No. 1 contract, £6,551 os. 4d. ; main building, No. 2 contract, £17,037 18s. 2d. ; professors' houses, £6,553 9s. 9d. Those amounts will not agree with the total, because there are contingencies, general purposes accounts, and architect's fees, which are to be apportioned among the buildings. The amount due to the contractors is £4,470 10s. Bd.

Eev. Dr. Stuart,

Juno 23, 1879,

Mr. Mansford.

June 23, 1879.

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6539. Can you give the Commission any idea of the amount by which this total sum expended exceeds the estimate of the cost of those buildings ?—Although the cost of the main building exceeds very much the estimate, yet, at the same time, there were some additions to it. The professors' room and the room over it are extras, and also the tower, which, of course, made a great deal of difference. The architect's estimate for the main building was £5,200, which has been extended to £17,037. 6540. Professor Sale.] Did that estimate include the cost of foundations?—As far as we understood it. There was nothing said about foundations. 6541. Did not the architect say that the foundations were to be done at schedule prices ? —I do not recollect. The original estimate for the main building is £8,200; the chemical division, £4,130; professors' houses (six), £6,864. But several other plans were since made for the professors' houses. The architect, in a letter, informed the Council that he had carefully gone through the estimates with experienced contractors, who were prepared to carry out the works at the prices mentioned, and said that on these data " the Council might act with confidence." Most of the tenders received were about 100 per cent, beyond the estimate. Then the concrete foundations were an extra which the Council were not aware of. 6542. How were the Council unaware of the expenditure for foundations?— Nothing was said about it. It was understood that everything was included in the estimate. 6543. The Chairman.] Did the architect's estimate not include foundations ?—They were in the specification ; but the Council did not see that specification. 6544. Professor Cook.] Did the Chancellor of the University sign the contract without knowing what was in the specification ? —The specification was not seen when the contract was signed. It was signed by all members of Council present on the occasion. 6545. The Chairman.] Could you give us any idea of what the cost of the foundations amounted to ? —The total cost of the foundations was £3,657 16s. 4d.—that is for the three buildings, distributed as follows: —Chemical division, £136 10s.; main building, £2,207 7s. Gd. ; professors' houses, £1,313 18s. lOd. 6546. Be v. W. J. Habens.] What was the original estimate for the main building ?—The original estimate was £8,200 ; but the cost of the tower was one cause of the great difference in price. It is impossible to say what the tower cost separately. Besides the tower, there were two extra rooms. 6547. Professor Cook.] What provision was made in the specification as to foundations ? — It was as follows : —" The contractor to allow in his estimate for sinking of three feet under footings of walls for concrete foundations. Concrete foundations will be paid for by measurement. The sum per cubic yard to be named in tender." Now, for this particular building the sum was not mentioned in the tender. In the tender for the first building —the chemical division —the amount was mentioned. 6548. Since no price was mentioned in the tender for foundations of the main building, how was the price regulated ? —Mr. Bury, the architect, spoke to me about it, and told me he intended to put down for the main building tho same price as was charged for the foundations of the chemical division. The contractors charged a great deal more, but he would not allow it, and knocked off £200 or £300. 6549. Tou paid the same for the foundations of the main building as for those of the chemical division ? —Tes. 6550. The Chairman.] "What special fund have the Council to meet this expenditure on the building ? —The Council have nothing to rely on but a loan. 6551. "What had they when they contemplated building?— The sale of the old premises for the sum of £27,000, which, with interest on the deposits, made a total of £28,272 3s. 4d. 6552. Do you know if the Council formed any estimate of the value of the old building before they sold it? —Some considerable time before the building was sold there was an estimate made. I cannot put my hand upon the memorandum drawn up> at the time, but to the best of my recollection it was something like £40,000 ; and at that price it was offered to the General Government. G553. Professor Sale.] Whose estimate was that ? —lt was made up by Sir John Bichardson and myself, mainly by getting the prices at which other buildings and sites had been sold. The land was valued at a price ranging from £15,000 to £18,000. 6554. The Chairman.] Was Sir John Bichardson Chancellor at the time of the bargain ?—No ; but he was Chancellor at the time,the estimate was made. He had ceased to be Chancellor when the property was sold. He was not a member of the Council when it was sold. He resigned his seat in the Council and the Chancellorship at the same time. 6555. Professor Sale.] Do you know whether, as a private citizen, Sir John Bichardson thought it a wise step for the Council to sell at £27,000? —I could hardly charge my memory with that; but I know that he was under the impression that it was a low price. The price fixed at the time Sir John Bichardson was in the Council was £30,000. That is what it was ofl'ered at. It was placed in the hands of two brokers. 6556. Was Sir John Bichardson in favour of that?—Tes. I could not say whether he was personally iv favour of it. He made no objection to it. It was placed in the hands of two brokers in Dunedin for two months ; but they failed to make any sale or to get anything like a good offer. 6557. The Chairman.] Was there any feeling that the building was sacrificed by parting with it at that price ?—The general impression is that the building was sold below its value ; but it was the highest price obtainable. 6558. Were there any dissentients in the Council from the sale of it at that sum ?—1 believe not. 6559. Professor Cook.] Were there any other offers received in excess of £27,000 ?—There was one offer previously by the Colonial Bank of £27,550. That was ou the 2nd December, 1875. The Council advertised for tenders. Two tenders came in—one from the Municipal Corporation of Dunedin for £21,000 ; and the other from the Colonial Bank for £27,550. 6560. Was there an offer made by Mr. Brands Bulton ? —Mr. Fulton was in negotiation with the Council for the purchase of the building, but there was no direct offer made by him.

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June 23,1879.

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6561. "Why did the negotiations break down ? —He had to communicate with England, and before he gave a positive answer the bank made its offer. The Council were anxious to close, and they did so. The date of the sale was 18th May, 1877. 65.2. How long would they have had to wait for a reply from England ?—I cannot tell. 6563. Bey. W. J. Habens.] The Colonial Bank offered more at one time than they ultimately gave ?—Yes ; £550 more. But the terms were different. 6564. The Chairman.] Did the sale require the ratification of the General Government ?—Yes ; the bargain was ratified by the Colonial Government. 6565. Professor Sale.] Did all the members of the Council agree to the sale ? —There was no objection to it. 6566. Was there a full meeting?— There was a quorum. There were seven members present out of twelve. Those present were —Rev. Dr. Stuart:, Mr. Strode, Mr. James Fulton, the Eev. Mr. Stanford, Dr. Burns, Mr. Harris, and Mr. Eeynolds. 6567. The Chairman.] What is a quorum of the Council ?—Six. 6568. How is it proposed to provide for the extra cost of the new buildings above £27,000 ?—The only way is to pay it out of the loan which the Council have authority to raise. 6569. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Have you reason to believe that, had there been a full meeting of the Council when the sale was agreed upon, the Council would then have been unanimous ?—There might have been a division, but the decision would have been exactly, the same. Mr. Macandrew waa a member of the Council at the time, and he wrote a letter some days previously indicating his willingness to accept an offer of £27,000; so that the decision would have been the same. He wrote as a member of the Council. Ido not know that there would have been any opposition ; but, even so, the decision would have been the same. I think the Chancellor was in Melbourne at the time. 6570. The Chairman.] Has the Council entered into any negotiation for raising a loan to pay off its liabilities ?—Yes. Negotiations have been going on for two months. 6571. Is the building completed at present?—lt is just about completed. 6572. Has tho contractor offered to hand it over yet ? —No ; not that I know of. 6573. Professor Sale.] At the time that the late University building was sold, was the Council in any immediate want of money ?—No ; not for any other purpose than for building. 6574. Waa the building itself insufficient for University purposes? —I think there was every accommodation there that could be required. In fact, there was more accommodation than we did require. We were letting off rooms bringing in a rental of £400 or £500 a year, and could have let more. 6575. You remember that there was a part of the building previously devoted to tho School of Art. AVas that handed over to the University about the time that the sale was effected?—lt had been handed over some time previously. 6576. So that there was ample accommodation for the University at the time? —Yes, certainly; ample accommodation. 6577. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Can you state how many students attending during this session are matriculated students, and give the corospondiug numbers for 1877 and 1878 ?—ln 1877, twenty-eight undergraduates ; in 1878, thirty-seven undergraduates ; and in 1879, forty-four undergraduates. 6575. A statement was made to us in Auckland, by Mr. Earquhar Macrae, as to the number of students iv attendance at the University of Otago. He said, "In the years 1871 to 1577 inclusive, the following were the numbers of matriculated students attending the Otago University : —lB7l, 0 ; 1872, 7 ; 1873, 12 ; 1874, 5 ; 1875, 6 ; 1870, 8 ; 1877, 9." Do you think that can be a correct statement?— Mr. Macrae's statement is altogether inaccurate ; he has evidently mistaken the number that matriculated in each year for the number of undergraduates attending the classes. 6579. The Chairman.] Has the Council any prescribed time for meeting? —Meetings are held monthly ; special meetings may be called as required. 6580. On those occasions when monthly meetings should be held, are you unable to proceed with business for want of a quorum? —That does frequently happen. Sometimes it happens very frequently, and especially during the parliamentary session. 6581. Has business been retarded through your not being able to obtain a quorum?—l do not know that business has often been retarded—not seriously. The members present generally proceed to what business they can do ; and it is confirmed at a subsequent meeting, when there is a quorum. 6582. Have there been any complaints about the quorum being largo ?—Yes. It has often been suggested that the quorum should be reduced, or that the number of members of the Council should be increased. 6583. Is the quorum Used by Ordinance ?—By the Frovincial Council Ordinance. Eirst of all it was fixed at nine. 6584. Bey. W. J. Habens^] What is the number of members ? —Twelve. Many members live in the country. 6585. The Chairman^] Can you account for the frequent want of a quorum ?—lt is owing to the fact that several members of the Council live at a distance from town. 6586. Professor Sale.] At the time that Sir John Bichardson was Chancellor, did he take a very active part in the affairs of the University ? —-Yes ; he devoted a great deal of time and attention to it. 6587. As a matter of fact, did nearly the whole business of the University devolve on him ?—Yes, practically. He used to come to town frequently ; and when he came into town he made the University office his sitting-room, and devoted his whole time to it. 6588. Did Sir John Bichardson resign the office of Chancellor before his death ? —Yes ; some considerable time before. 6589. Can you state the reason why he resigned ? —I believe there was some little unpleasantness, but I cannot recollect it at this moment. 6590. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you state, by reference to the minutes, how many monthly meetings during the last year have lapsed for want of a quorum ? —The last year has not been so bad in, 42— H. 1.

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that respect as previous years. There was no quorum at six meetings out of the last twelve regular meetings. 6591. The Chairman.] Is there always business requiring the attendance of the Council once monthly ?—Tes. 6592. Has the Chancellor any power to deal with the business of the Council of himself ? —He has no power conferred on him by the Ordinance. He must always act subject to the Council. 6593. How many students have completed their University course at the Otago University ? —Six have taken degrees in the New Zealand University. 6594. How many students presented themselves for the last matriculation examination ?— Eighteen. 6595. How many passed ?—Fifteen. 6596. Is that about the average ? —lt is above the average. 6597. Professor Cook.] Are you aware whether the Council passed a resolution setting apart an annual sum for increasing the library ? —I cannot say from recollection that they have done anything of the kind, but I know it was talked about at one time. There are really no funds at all for the library. It was suggested at one time that the college fee should be devoted to the library; but that would not amount to £100 a year. 6598. Professor Sale.] You are aware that the Council are now establishing a Medical School in Dunedin. Do you know whether there has been any difficulty in settling the amount of fees to be paid by the medical students for instruction at the Hospital ? —There has been considerable difficulty about it. 6599. Are you aware what fees the Hospital Committee proposes to charge ? —I believe they are £10 for the first year, and £5 for the second year. 6600. Were those fees objected to ? —They were objected to by Dr. Scott, the Professor of Anatomy. 6601. What steps did the Council take in the matter?— The Council .appointed a deputation to wait on the Hospital Committee. 6602. With what result? —With a very poor result so far. It ended in an understanding that the Hospital Committee were to communicate with the Council on the subject, which they have not done. There have been some interviews between Dr. Stuart and one or two members of the Committee. 6603. Are you aware that the Hospital Committee passed a resolution to the effect that they would adhere to the fees which they had imposed, failing any statement from the Council of reasons against such fees being charged?—l believe something of the kind was done. 6604. Did Professor Scott furnish the Council with materials for making such a statement ? — He did. 6605. Has the Council made any such statement ?—No. 6606. Do you know why ?—I do not know. I believe Dr. Stuart has been in personal communication with some members of the Committee; but more than that I cannot say. 6607. Then, so far as you know, the fees which will be charged remain at the original sum fixed ? —Yes ; so far as I know. 6608. The Chairman.] Have you any idea of the cost of maintaining the Medical School?—At the present time there is the salary of the professor and the salary of the lecturer on surgery, amounting together to £800. Then there is the man who waits in the dissecting-room during the summer, £60. Total. £860 a year. That is all at present. The incidental expenses do not amount to very much. 6609. Dr. Macdonald.] With regard to the School of Mines, is the salary of the professor the only expense ? —At present no actual expense can be charged against the School of Mines except the professor's salary—£soo a year of that we get from the Grovernment. 6610. The University pays only £100 a year towards the School of Mines ?—Yes. 6611. The Chairman.] Are all the University endowments let at preseut?—Yes; they are all let. The leases of some of them are now expiring.

Mr. Mansford,

June 23,1879,

Tuesday, 2__rt June, 1879. Pkesent: Mr. a. M. O'Eorke, M.H.E., in the Chair. Professor Brown, Eev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Hon. W. Gisborne, Professor Shand, Eev. AY". J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Dr. Hector, Dr. Wallis. Professor Scott, M.D., was sworn and examined. 6612. The Chairman.] "What is your position in connection with the University of Otago ?—Professor of Anatomy. 6613. How long have you held that appointment?— Two years. 6614. By whom were you appointed ?—By the Agent at Home. 6615. Had anything been done towards establishing a medical school in Dunedin previous to your arrival ?—Yes ; Dr. Coughtrey was my predecessor. 6616. How long had it been in existence before you came out ?—I think about two years. 6617. Would you tell us what are the arrangements for the conduct of the Medical School ? —• There are lectures on chemistry, zoology, anatomy, and surgery ; aud the Hospital has been, thrown open to the students by the Committee. 6618. How many professors are engaged in teaching ?—The Professor of Chemistry, the Professor of Zoology, the Professor of Anatomy, and a Lecturer on Surgery.

Proftssor Scott.

June 24, 1879.

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6619. Are the duties of these professors devoted exclusively to the Medical School?—No; the . Lecturer on Chemistry has comparatively few medical students —his students are mostly arts students. The same remark applies to the Natural History Lecturer: I think at present Captain Hutton has three medical students, hut his class numbers about ten. In the surgery and anatomy classes all the students are medical students. 6620. How many students have you at present ?—Five. 6G21. I presume the same five that you had last year ?—No ; three began this year, who fill the places of those who went Home. You may count last year as being the first year during which there was a regular class. 6622. Did I understand you to say three had gone Home ? —Tes. 6623. To complete their medical studies ? —Tes. The present class consists of two of my old students and three new ones. 6624. Do these students who have gone Home for the completion of their studies receive any assistance from the University? —No; not those who went Home last year: they went at their own expense. 6625. What course of medical instruction is it proposed to give in the Medical School under your charge—how many years ? —What I should like would be merely to give two years here in the meantime, and let the student go Home with his medical education in such a state as to enable him to complete his studies in one of the Universities in two years more. I should like the student to have two qualifying years here, until the Hospital is larger. It would be very unsatisfactory indeed to attempt to give a complete medical education, either here or in any other part of New Zealand, until the hospitals are larger. 662 G. What are the arrangements whereby the Hospital is thrown open for the instruction of the students?— The Committee throw it open, and the medical and surgical staff attend at certain hours, and instruct the students clinically. The students have the right to go round the wards at a certain hour, when the members of the medical staff are supposed to attend and give them instruction. 6627. Do you attend to give instruction to your pupils ? —I applied to be put on the hospital staff, but my application was refused : at least it was never considered, which I suppose is tantamount to a refusal. 6628. And you have no opportunity of giving lectures or explanations in the Hospital to your students ?—No. 6629. Is there any charge made for permitting the students to walk the Hospital ?—-None has been made. There is a difficulty in the matter at present. It is admitted that a charge ought to be made ; but the medical staff differ from the Council as to what the charge ought to be. The Council, as advised by me, would recommend a charge of three guineas per annum; but the majority of the medical staff say they will not sign the students' certificates of attendance unless a charge of £10 for the first year, and £5 for the second year, is made. 6630. Bey. W. J. Habens.] How does that charge compare with charges of the same naturo in hospitals in older countries ? —lt is much higher. In Edinburgh the charge for hospital attendance is £10 for a perpetual ticket; in Glasgow it is about the same; in Aberdeen the charge is £6; in the Paris hospitals no charge is made ; in London you cannot exactly say what amount is charged for hospital attendance, pure and simple, because they include clinical lectures, post mortem attendance, aud things of that sort in tho sum which is put down for hospital attendance. 6631. When you applied to tho Hospital Committee to be put on the staff, did you do so in your private capacity as a medical practitioner, or in your official capacity as Professor of Anatomy ?—I did not state any capacity at all. I merely answered the advertisement. They advertised for applications, and I applied. 6632. The Chairman.] Could you tell us how the medical staff of the Hospital is appointed ?—lt is appointed annually by the Hospital Committee, by ballot. 6633. How many compose the staff ?—Six. There were seven last year. 6634. Bey. W. J. Habens.] By whom is the Committee appointed ? —I cannot say. 6635. Professor Cook.] Is it a perpetual Committee ?—I do not know. 6636. Dr. Hector.] How is the Hospital supported ? —Principally by the Government, I believe, but to a certain extent by voluntary contribution. 6637. The Chairman.] Is there a medical man permanently at the hospital ?—Tes, there is a resident surgeon. 6638. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What is the number of beds?— About 120. 6639. Dr. Hector.] Do you know how the medical men divide the work in the Hospital ?—There are three physicians, and three surgeons. 6640. And do they take sepsirate wards ? —No; their eases are scattered about through the different wards. 6641. Have they days upon which they take cases coming in ?—No; the house-surgeon gives cases in rotation. 6642. The Chairman.] Do you kuow whether they receive any remuneration for their services ? — No, they do not. 6643. Dr. Hector.] Would these proposed fees of £10 go to them? —Tes. 6644. The Chairman.] Do you think the circumstances of the City of Dunedin were such as to warrant the establishment of a medical school ?—I think it was premature. 6615. Professor Cook.] Even if it were ouly contemplated to give a two years' course? —I thought the intention was to give a complete course. If a two years' course was contemplated, perhaps it was not premature ; and I think now that a two years' course can be given perfectly well. 6646. The Cliairman.] What is the special instruction given in the two years' course ?—Chemistry, zoology, anatomy, and I should like physiology. These are the scientific foundation of medicine. 6647. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are there no lectures ou physiology at present ?—No. 6645. Professor Cook.] And none on botany ? —No. Professor Hutton did teach both botany and zoology; but, to allow of his lectures being recognized by the Edinburgh University, he can only teach

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one subject. It is one of the regulations of the Edinburgh University that a man can only lecture on one subject, if his lectures are to be recognized. 6649. Dr. Hector.] Then, how far does this two-years' course of study go towards a medical degree elsewhere? —These classes, along with attendance at the hospital,.and physiology, would put the student here in the same position as a two-years' student at Home, with the exception of his not having had botany. 6650. "Would that apply to any college at Home ? —lt would not apply to London hospitals, because they arrange their courses somewhat differently. 6651. Would it apply to any of the University dogroes in Scotland?—Tes, it would apply to Scotch Universities. 6652. That is to say, the lectures given here are recognized by all the Scotch Universities ?—No, only by Edinburgh. 6653. Then, would the course here only go towards taking a degree at Edinburgh?—Tes. 6654. And at no other place ?—No. 6655. So that, as far as medical education is concerned, the Otago College is affiliated to the Edinburgh University?—Tes. It is hardly right to say the lecture on surgery is recognized yet, because Dr. Brown's recognition has not come out. lam told, in letters from Home, that it is in a fair way to be given ; but it has not arrived yet. 6656. Is there any recognition, by the General Medical Council at Home, of these medical lectures given here ?—No; but I do not think that is material at all. 6657. Has it been ascertained that, in the event of a student taking two years of his course here, and completing his education in Edinburgh and taking his degree there, no question will be raised by the Medical Council as to whether a degree granted partly by the University, and partly on the strength of studies carried on out of the University, would be sufficient for the Medical Eegistration Act ?—I do not think that question could arise, because Edinburgh grants its degrees cither after attendance on its own lectures, or lectures recognized by its Court; and Professor Black's lectures, and Professor Hutton's lectures, and mine, are recognized by the Court. 6658. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Then does the registration court recognize the Edinburgh degree without further inquiry ? —Tes. 6659. Dr. Wallis.] Tou mean the College of Surgeons and College of Physicians, not the University of Ediuburgh ?—No ; I am speaking of the University. 6660. Dr. Hector.] Would the lectures that are given here go towards qualifying for the Licentiate's Certificate of the College of Surgeons of Edinburgh ?—I should fancy that the College of Physicians and the College of Surgeons, Edinburgh, would recognize what the University recognized. I have no resolution of theirs to go upon in saying so, but the College of Surgeons and College of Physicians, Edinburgh, grant a lower class degree, and I should say they would be satisfied with what the University accepted. 6661. Do you think the arrangements for this Medical School were as fully organized as they might have been before it was started, to secure the recognition of the work done by the students ? When you say it was premature, do you mean in that respect?—No ; I meant, by premature, that I did not think the Hospital was large enough yet. 6662. In your opinion, is it desirable that the recognition of the Medical School should bo obtained, and its position determined, before its establishment, by correspondence with the authorities at Home, who can alone grant a medical status ? —Edinburgh recognizes individual lecturers. 6663. But you are aware that no medical man can practice in Great Britain unless he is on the Medical llegister ? —I am aware that he cannot —at least, he would do so at his own peril. 6664. Well, would it not be better to ascertain what is requisite to enable the medical course given in the colony to be recognized by the Medical Council at Home, and then .adapt the course to their requirements ? Would not that be the better course ? —No; because the Medical Council is not an examining body. The Medical Council has no power to grant degrees. 6665. But they fix what is necessary ? —No; they recommend what they think desirable, but the individual examining bodies please themselves, and do what they think necessary. Edinburgh has its course, and the College of Surgeons, London, has its course, and there arc differences between them. The College of Surgeons was applied to by the University here to recognize its classes, but replied that it could only recognize a complete school. 6066. Are you aware that medical degrees granted by the Melbourne University are not recognized by the Medical Council at Home ? —Tes. The Medical Council, I believe, have been discussing that question. A change has beeu proposed in the registration of foreign and colonial degrees. At present no colonial or foreign degrees can be registered at Home. C 667. Dr. Wallis.] What are the medical degrees granted by the University of Edinburgh, as distinct from the College of Surgeons and College of Physicians ? —The University degrees are: Bachelor of Medicine, Master of Surgery, and Doctor of Medicine. The College of Physicians gives the Membership and the Licentiateship, and the College of Surgeons gives the Licentiateship ; both of them give a fellowship in addition; but the examination degrees of these two bodies are the Licentiateship. 6568. Iv what respect, then, are the degrees granted by the College of Physicians and the College of Surgeons inferior ? —There is a shorter course required. Tou can pass with three years' attendance at the College of Surgeons, aud four years' at the University. There are fewer subjects taken up, and the examinations are easier. 6669. What subjects taken up at the University are not included in the course required by tho College of Physicians ?—Botany, geology, and systematic pathology. 6670. Are they uot in the course for the College of Physicians and the College of Surgeons ?— They are not required for the licentiateship or membership. 6671. They are required for the entrance examination, which is the same thing ?—No ; though a knowledge of them is recommended.

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6672. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is there sufficient opportunity for the practice of dissection here ?— Tes, I think so. Last year, for the five students, I had five bodies ; but this year —I cannot say why— I have not had a body yet. I know there was one, but I was not informed of the fact. 6673. Dr. Wallis.] Is not one body per annum for each student in excess of the number obtained in the Scotch medical schools P—Yes. I could have had more last year, but five was all I required. Of course, all these bodies were not merely for dissection; two of them I took up with my lectures. The students dissected three, and two I used for lecture purposes. 6674. The Chairman.] Are the medical students required to attend an arts course ?—No ; they are required to pass a preliminary examination in arts subjects, but not to go through an arts course. 6675. Professor Cook.] Is that the entrance examination to the University, or a special examination for your school ? —lt is a special entrance examination. 6676. Dr. Hector.] Do you think the entrance examination is unnecessarily hard, or hard enough, for the pupils ?—I think that, as it is recognized by the GreneraL Medical Council, aud by Edinburgh, it is quite hard enough. 6677. Dr. Wallis.] When students go Home from the Medical School here, I suppose you certify that they have attended a certain number of your lectures ? —Tes ; I certify that they attended my course. 6878. Do you state the number of lectures in the course ? —I stated last year that they began on a certain date and ended on a certain date—six months. 6679. A student may be absent from many of the lectures ?—lf a student were absent beyond a certain number of lectures I should state that; and if the absence wero due to illness the lectures would be allowed to count; but if the student had no good excuse to offer I should decline to give him a certificate. 6680. Dr. Hector.] I suppose your certificate is given in the same form as that given by the Professor of Anatomy in Edinburgh ? —Practically the same. 6681. Dr. Wallis.] I understand that iv the medical schools in Edinburgh the number of lectures attended is invariably specified in the certificate ? —ln the case of those with which I am best acquainted —and I havo myself written a great many of them, Professor Turner's, for instance —the form is : I hereby certify that Mr. So-and-so attended my course of lectures beginning on such-and-such a date and ending on such-and-such a date ; that attendance was ascertained twenty-six times, and that Mr. So-and-so was present on so many of those occasions; and the certificate is headed "Edinburgh, Winter Session." These lectures are five hours a week. 6682. The. Chairman.] Are the students who went Home continuing their medical education in Edinburgh ? —Two of them iv Edinburgh; one went to London.* 6683. Dr. Hector J] Then will the one who went to London lose the time he spent here —have to take that over again ? —Yes. 6681. The Chairman.] Could you tell us what is the total cost of the Medical School in the Otago University as it stands at present?— About £1,100—£600 for the Chair of Anatomy ; £200 for the Lecturer on Surgery ; £200 as parts of the salaries of the Chairs of Chemistry and Zoology ; and £100 covers any additional expenses. 6685. Professor Cook.] Are there no arrangements at all for teaching botany in connection with the Otaso University?—_\ Tot now. 6686. Do you not think it would assist your students if there were botany lectures in connection with the Medical School ?—lt would assist them ; but I do not think the assistance they would get would counterbalance tho expense which would be entailed upon the University. 6687. Bey. W. J. Habens.] What do you think is the greatest defect in this preparatory course at present? —Want of physiology. • 6388. Professor Brown.] I thought your chair was originally a chair of anatomy and physiology? —I think it was; but I cau only lecture on anatomy. lam not allowed to lecture on anything else as well. 6689. Dr. Hector.] If it were permitted by the Edinburgh University, do you think it would be incompatible with the duties of the Professor of Anatomy that he should also conduct a class on physiology, where the number of students was very small ?—I think a certain amount of instruction could be given in physiology. I do not think that, along with anatomy, physiology could possibly be taught in the way in which it is taught now in tho Home schools. 6890. Do you think physiology as it is taught at Home could bo taught without a knowledge of botany?—No ; but I would put botany among the preliminary subjects. 6691. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Tour meaning is that, as the subjects are taught at Home, one man could not teach two subjects well?— Could not teach both anatomy and physiology well. 6692. The Chairman.] Have you any knowledge of the Medical Schools in Australia?— Not much. I know that Professor Hal ford teaches anatomy, physiology, and pathology in Melbourne ; that chemistry is taught there, and that the rest of the course is made up by lecturers. 6693. And do they confer medical degrees in Melbourne? —Tes. 669-1. Which degrees, I believe, are not recognized in the United Kingdom ?—No ; no colonial degrees are recognized. 6695. Have you any idea whether there are many medical men turned out by the Medical School in Melbourne ? —I think there are about three or four, or perhaps five, in the year. Though there were seventy students last year, a great many of them went Home to complete their studies, and I think only four or five took their degree in Melbourne. 0696. The Melbourne University undertakes to give a complete medical course, and a full medical degree ?—Tes ; a five-years' course. 6697. Professor Shand.] Do you know whether tho Melbourne medical degrees are in good repute in Australia? —The men who have passed have hardly had a chance yet; they are quite young. * The witness wishes to make a correction, in theso words -. " I have heard_since that all three went to Edinburgh."— Sec, E. Comm.

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6698. Dr. Sector.] Which do you think would be the better course—for the University of New Zealand to have a medical degree recognized by the Medical Council at Home, or to continue the present system, by which the Otago College is affiliated, in a manner, to the Edinburgh University alone? "Which would be most useful ? —The present plan is much the most useful, because recognition by the General Medical Council at Home does not confer any privilege at all. 6G99. It gives you a right to practice ? —-No. No colonial degree can be registered. 6700. But I mean supposing a recognition giving the right to practice were obtained by the University ?—-But until the law is altered you cannot get that. 6701. Supposing the law is altered, which it will be, I believe, next session? —In that case, of course, the present arrangement in Otago would become to some extent unnecessary. 6702. Which would be the better cnurse —to endeavour to continue the present arrangement by which degrees can be taken only at the Edinburgh University, or to endeavour to get a recognition for the New Zealand University degree ?—I think the present plan is better, on account of the size of the hospitals—mainly on account of the size of the hospitals. When the colony is older a full course would be better, but I do not think it is old enough yet. 6703. The Chairman."] Have you made any suggestions to the University Council for the improvement of the Medical School ? —When I came out they asked me what I would recommend so as to give the students a two-years' curriculum here, and I said they would require a lecture on either surgery or physiology, and that I would prefer that they should get out a lecturer on surgery. That is the only recommendation I have given in writing. They thought they had two qualifying years when I came out. They taught nothing but anatomy, chemistry, and zoology. But I now see that, to put the students on a par with those at Home, physiology also must be taught. 6701. Professor Cook.] Do you think physiology could be properly taught by a lecturer who only devoted a small portion of his time to the work, or would it need a professor who would give the whole of his time to the duties ? —I do not think it is so much a question of time as of training. 6705. But, in a subject that is making such rapid strides as physiology, would not the lecturer or professor require a large amount of time to work at it?— Yes. 6706. Professor Ulrich.] You would require a good laboratory for physiology? —Yes; a good laboratory and a good library. 6707. Professor Cook.] Then do you think it could be properly taught by a lecturer ?—I do not quite understand what you mean by a lecturer. 6708. A lecturer is a man who devotes only a limited portion of his time to teaching, and receives perhaps £100 or £200 a year for his work ?—lf a lecturer were a competent man, and would give the proper amount of time to his work, I do not see why he could not teach physiology. 6709. Let me put the question in another way. The lecturer on surgery here gets, I think, £200 a year. Would that be sufficient remuneration for a man to teach a subject like physiology ? —You could not get a man for that sum ; because no man who has come out to New Zealand as a general practitioner could teach physiology as it is taught at Home, and as it ought to be taught. He would not have had the training. You need a special training to teach physiology properly. 6710. Then does it not come to this—that you would require to procure a professor from Europe who would devote his whole time to the subject ? —You would require to procure a man from Europe who could teach the subject. 6711. Dr. Hector.] Would he require to give the whole of his time to it?— Professor Bennett, of Edinburgh, who was one of the best men of his day, taught physiology, and had private practice. 6712. Professor Brown.] Then the subject is not so absorbing as to preclude the teaching of anatomy along with it, if a man can also take general practice? Supposing he were to give up his general practice, could he hot, in the time which he would thus save, teach anatomy along with physiology ? —I do not think so. 6713. AVould you explain why ?—lf his anatomy took him eight hours he could give an hour or two to practice, but physiology could not be taught in the hour or two which he gives to practice. 6714. Professor Shand.] Is it usual for professors and lecturers in the medical schools at Home to have private practice?—lt is unusual to have it forbidden, and in the small schools it is usual for them to have private practice. Of course in the larger schools —in a school like that of Edinburgh, where there were 617 anatomy students last year —there is no time to do anything else. Not only is there no time, but there is no necessity, as the income derived from the chair makes a man perfectly independent of practice. 6715. The Chairman.] Are you required to devote your whole time to your professional duties? — Yes; lam forbidden to practice. 6716. Dr. Hector.] You have no consulting practice ?—No. 6717. Not even consulting in surgery ? —No ; nothing. 6718. Do you think, from your experience elsewhere, that it would be for the benefit of the people in the place, that a person holding the position of Professor of Anatomy should have a consulting surgical practice ? 1 mean, putting yourself out of the question, and supposing you were deciding the matter for another place ? —1 would not put it on that ground, but I think it would be for the benefit of the school to allow their professors to practice, because, as salaries go, they are decidedly less than the incomes of the general practitioners of the town; and here the vacation is so long. 6719. The vacation is so long that you could practice ? —Yes. 6720. Professor Brown.] Do you think an increase in the salary and a shortening of the vacation would take away any necessity for a consulting practice ? —What I mean is, that it would be for the good of the school if you gave a man a certain inducement to stay in the school. 6721. The Chairman.] And do you think the Professor of Anatomy in Dunedin could, without undue interference with his professorial work, carry on a general practice ? —Not a general practice, because no man teaching anatomy could, with justice to his patients, take midwifery cases ; and of course midwifery is the great key to general practice. All that a man teaching anatomy could do would be little more than consulting practice.

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6722. Professor Cook.] Tou spoke of the Medical School in Melbourne. Are you aware whether the professor there is allowed any practice ?—I know that he does practice. 6723. As a consulting practitioner ? —He has a red lamp over his door. He had when I was in Melbourne a few months ago. 6724. Dr. Hector.] Have you a residence which requires you to live at the College, or any particular place ?—No. 6725. Besidence is no part of your arrangement with the University ? —No. 6726. The Chairman.] Has anything been done by the Council towards establishing a library for the use of the Medical School ? —A few books were obtained originally, but not a single book has been procured since I came out. The class-books we have are now all old editions. 6727. Dr. Hector.] Where are they kept ? —ln the University library. 6728. What is the nature of the library ? Is it a public library ? —lt was partly obtained by public subscription. 6729. Is it under the control of the University Council, or of a committee ? —Of a committee appointed by the University Council. 6730. The Chairman.] Do I understand there is no distinct medical library for the use of the medical students?— There are a few medical books. 6731. Are they mixed up with the general library ?—Tes. 6732. There is no distinct library for the Medical School ?—No. 6733. And none of the medical publications taken in as they come out from Homo ? —The journal on Anatomy and Physiology is the only one. 6734. Professor Shand.] Would it be desirable to have a special library for a Medical School ? — No, I think not. It would be desirable that a certain sum of money should be spent in getting out medical books, but they could be kept with the other books. 6735. Professor Cook.] It would be still more desirable that the medical journals should be taken ? —Equally desirable. 6736. Dr. Hector.] Would first- and second-year students be likely to consult the medical journals ? —The professor would. 6737. Professor Brown.] Do you think the constitution of the governing body of the Otago University and institutions of the same sort could be improved in any way ? —lt would be improved by some men being put on the governing body who had some qualifications for ruling a technical school. 6738. Do you think any change in the tenure of office would improve the character of the Council ?—Tes; I think it would be an improvement if there was a provision that a member should cease to hold his seat who had absented himself from the meetings of the Council for a certain number of times consecutively. 6739. Could you state how the Otago University Council is appointed? —The members are nominated by the Government, I beJieve. 6740. Do you think that system could be improved in any way?—l do not know that it could. I think it is perhaps as satisfactory as any method. 6741. The Chairman.] Are there any medical men on the University Council? —There is one. 6742. Have you more than one class of students at present ? —One class in two divisions : the anatomy class, seniors and juniors. 6743. Professor Brown.] Do you find that the medical element on the Council assists you? —It has not assisted me much yet. Professor HuttO-T, E.G.S., was sworn and examined. 6744. The Chairman.] What position do you hold in connection with the Otago University ?—I am Professor of Natural Science; I teach zoology and geology. 6745. How long have you held that post ? —Bather more than two years. I think I was appointed in March, 1877. 6746. Some portion of your instruction is devoted, I think, to the Medical School? —The students of the Medical School may attend my zoology class. They are not obliged to do so, but, if they attend, it counts as a course of lectures at the Edinburgh University. But they have to pass an examination when they get Home. Attendance here only prepares them, and, if they have a certificate that they have attended my lectures, they can go at once to the examination when they get Home. 6747. How much time per week is devoted to lecturing on zoology ? —Bive hours a week to the arts students ; three hours a week to the medical students. 6748. Had the attempt to establish the Medical School taken place before you joined the University ?—I was a lecturer, but not a professor, before the school was started. I was a lecturer at the University for three years before I was a professor. The Medical School was started when I was Provincial Geologist and Lecturer at the University. 6749. How far back does your connection with the University date ?—Since I first came down here in October, 1874, I have been connected with the University, but not always as a professor. 6750. Bey. W. J. Habens.] On what principle is a shorter amount of time given in zoology to medical students than to other students ? —According to the Edinburgh regulations they are only obliged to attend fifty lectures, and as Dr. Scott wants them twice a week in the afternoons, for instruction in dissection, he can only allow me to have them three days out of the week. 6751. Dr. Hector.] That is to say, zoology is taken as part of the winter course here, and as a summer course at Home ?—-Tes. 6752. The shorter number of hours per week being continued for a greater number of weeks to make up the full period ? —Tes. The students have three hours per week for twenty-six weeks, so that they have more than the number of lectures they are obliged to attend. 6753. Professor Cook.] Do you have to make a special arrangement for lectures at which the medical students do not attend ?■—lt puts me out a great deal. The arts students attend the same lectures as the medical students, and in addition they have two other lectures, which, as there are no medical students present, are entirely devoted to dissection, so as to go over the work again which the medical

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.. students have been, through by lectures. The medical students do not attend the practical dissection part. That is the way I havo managed to get over the difficulty, but it has beeu very awkward for me. 6754. Dr. Hector.] Does not that render the tuition of zoology less perfect to the medical students ? —Decidedly. G755. Bey. W. J. Habens.] "What subjects did you teach before the Medical School was established? —The same —zoology and geology. 675 G. Tou did not teach botany ?—I gave one course of lectures in botany here, before I was recognized as a teacher at Home. Now that lam so recognized, I cannot well teach botany, as it is not supposed that I should teach more than one subject—the one I am recognized in. G757. Do you think that the loss of opportunity of imparting instruction in other subjects is compensated for by the benefit of having a medical school established here ? Tou have lost the opportunity of teaching certain subjects which you are willing and qualified to teach ? —I think, of the two, it is more beneficial to have a medical school. 6758. Professor Shand.] At the time you gave a course of lectures in botany did you also give a course of lectures in zoology ?—No; I advertised for a class, but nobody came forward. 6759. The Chairman] Have any of your students in zoology gone Home and proceeded with their medical studies ?—No ; this is the first year I have had medical students. G760. Hon. W. Gisborne.] How many medical students are there ?—Three attend my class now ; there were four, but one has given up. 6761. Is that the whole number? —No ; I have also seven arts students. 6762. How many medical students are there in Dunedin? —Professor Scott would be able to tell you. 6763. Do they not all take zoology as well ?—Tes ; but they do not all take it the first year. They need not take it at all unless they like ; they can take it at home. They do so merely to save a certain number of lectures. 6761. Dr. Wallis.] How many hours a week do you teach in all ? —I teach six hours a week now ; but tbo whole of my forenoons and Saturdays are taken up with Museum work. That is part of the University work just as much as lecturing. lam at work from half-past 9 o'clock until 4 o'clock every day, either giving lectures or at the Museum. 6765. Dr. Hector.] Tou are curator of the Museum, and it belongs to the University?—Tes. 6766. Dr. Wallis.] Would you have time for one course of botany to the medical students, and another course of botany for the arts students ? —Not if I had to look after tho Museum too. I ought to explain, with regard to my lectures on zoology, that considerable time is taken up, not only in preparing, but in collecting specimens. I teach the subject practically, aud all the students dissect, and consequently I have to procure a large number of specimens. Each student, for instance, has to have two or three specimens of some animal —say a star-fish or a worm —for dissection, and a great deal of my time is occupied in obtaining these specimens, especially in the winter, when animals are difficult to get. In fact, some portions of zoology, like entomology, cannot be taught properly in the winter, as it is impossible to collect specimens. 6767. Dr. Hector.] How would it answer if there was a summer course and a winter course? —It would suit me much better. 6768. Could you then take a class in botany ?—I could do so, provided it was chiefly physiological botany and cryptogamic botany that was taught. As the examination papers are now set, most of the botany is simply the systematic botany of flowering plants. lam not sufficiently up iv this subject to teach it. 1 could teach the branches I have mentioned, and the main points iv phamogams ; but I w*ould uot attempt to bring students up in a course of systematic botany, because I could not do it; it is a part of the subject I have never studied. 6769. Tou know that the physiological part is the most important for medical studies?— Decidedly. So it is with natural history. I consider the students are losing the most important part of that subject, but I cannot avoid it on account of the examination. Dissection they will not be examined in at all at home. All they havo to be examined in is simply the classification of animals, which has to be crammed up. 6770. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is there no examination in physiology at all?— There is in human physiology. 6771. Not in comparative physiology?— There is a small amount, just what they get from books. But physiology, to bo taught practically, ought to be taught by meaus of experiments. I teach morphology—that is, the structure of animals. 6772. Dr. Hector.] Tou said that the Museum was part of the University. Is it supported entirely out of University funds, or out of funds under the control of the University ?—lt is under the control of the University. 6773. My question was with the view of finding out whether the Museum is managed for the purposes of the University, or mainly as a public museum ?—The object is chiefly the instruction of students. It is principally a natural-history museum. The Museum was endowed in the session of 1877 with a block of 11,000 acres of land lying between Silverpeaks and the Taieri Eiver. 6774. Hon. W. Gisborne.] By whom ? —By the General Assembly. 6775. Dr. Hector.] Was the land placed in trust ? —Tes, in trust for the Museum. 6776. Who wero the trustees ?—The University Council. The land consists of portions of two runs —Run 20,10,630 acres, and Run 77, which is about 370 acres. The lease of Run 20 expired on tho 2nd January, 187S, and the lease of the small run expired on the 15th July, 1878. By clause 118 of " The Land Act, 1877," these runs had the right of extension at the old rates to the following March; so that Bun 20 was extended to March, 1878, and Bun 77 to March, 1879. The Museum was taken over by tho University on the 18th December, 1877. At that time tho amount of money due to tho Museum by the G-oueral Government, who had kept the institution after the Provincial Government was abolished, was £295 3s. Id. The University paid this sum to me, and the Government afterwards paid in £119 14s. Bd., which was for wages. There was therefore a balance of £175 Bs. sd. left, which the

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Government really owed to the Museum. The Council never made any attempt to get this money from the Government, but charged it against the Museum revenue. Then the next step was that these Museum reserves were advertised for lease in August, 1878—long after the leases had expired. They wero then withdrawn again, because it was proposed that some alterations should be made in the boundaries. However, no such alteration was made, and the run was again advertised for lease, and was let on the 14th December, 1878. In the conditions of lease, possession of Euu 20 was said to be given on tho lst January, 1879, and of Eun 77 on the lst March, 1879 ; but the rent was not to begin until tho lst May, 1879, so that the former tenants had possession of the land for sixteen months rent-free. 6777. Did they actually occupy it for those sixteen months ?—Tes; the former tenants toolit again. 6778. Professor Ulrich.] Then the Council lost a great deal of money by that? —Tes; through that, and through not recovering the money from the Government, they lost about £1,000. The University Council neglected to lease the run when the term expired, and sixteen months elapsed from the Ist January, when they might have got some money, until the lst May, 1879, and during that time tho tenants had the run for nothing at all. 6779. Dr. Hector.] Then, is the whole rental of these lands devoted to the Museum now ?—No. The rent of the run is now £916 13s. 4d. a year; the land-tax, which has to be deducted from that, amounts to £-1-5 17s. 6d. That leaves £870 15s. lOd. Of that, one-tentb has to go to the Athenamm, which is the proportion that has to be so applied when the annual revenue exceeds £700. Deducting, therefore, £S7 Is. 6d., there is a net revenue left for the Museum of £783 14s. 4d. There is a Museum Committee of the Council, but they have only met twice. They met once and took over the institution, and they met again last March, after the run was let, and they then informed me that they would allow the Museum £600 a year, in order to carry it on, and that the balance of the revenue would be retained by them until they had repaid themselves what they had previously expended on the Museum. 6780. Previous to what ? —Before they let the run. 6781. That is to say, what they had expended on the Museum during the time they had allowed the run to remain unleased ?—Tes; and also tho money they did not recover from the Government. According to their books, on the 3lst of March, at the close of the financial year, the Museum was in debt to the University Council to the amount of £597 9s. sd. 6782. That is according to their statement of accounts ? —Tes —which sum the Museum has to pay off before it gets the benefit of the whole of its revenue. I cannot say for certain, because I have never seen the lease, nor have I been consulted about it in any way; but I am told that in the lease there is a clause to the effect that, if any alteration is made in the boundary, the Museum will have to bear all the expense of the removal of the fences. The tenants are not to pay for anything of that kind ; and that may be a liability hanging over the Museum of the extent of which I am ignorant. 6783. On the other hand, what would be the balance due to the Museum supposing the runs brought in revenue continuously ? —I should say that between £900 and £1,000 has been lost. 6783 a. Instead of the Museum being indebted to the University Council to the amount of £597, you consider that the University Council should properly have paid to the Museum Account nearly £1,000 more than it has done ? —Tes. I may say that, of the £600 a year which the Museum gets, £450 goes in wages to keep the institution up, so that there is very little indeed left for all necessary purposes. 6784. Professor Ulrich.] Tou have, in fact, only £150 a year witb which to purchase specimens ? —Tes ; and out of that sum 1 have to pay for gns and coals for the University lectures. The University uses three lecture-rooms, which have to be supplied with gas, coal, &c. 6785. Hon. W. Gisborne.] If tho Museum is part of the University, I do not understand how you separate the accounts. The University is as much responsible for the proper conduct of the Museum as for any other branch, is it not ? —Tes ; but this psirticular endowment mnst be spent on the Museum and the Museum alone. 6786. Aud it is with reference to this particular endowment that you are speaking ?—Tes, this particular endowment only. 6787. But otherwise the University is liable from ail its revenue for the proper management of the Museum ? —Tes, I suppose so. 6788. Dr. Hector.] Was the endowment made to the Museum as a public museum, or as a college museum ? —As a public museum. It was made before the Museum was handed over to the University ; the University did not take it until it was endowed. 6789. Hon. W. Gisborne.] But, when they took it, you hold that the proceeds were to be applicable only to the Museum ? —Tes. 6790. Dr. Hector.] AVhat control does the University Council exercise over the management of tbe Museum, apart from tbe finance ? —None at all. There was a sub-committee appointed, but, as I have said, they only met twice. 6791. Professor Ulrich.] During what time ?—Between the 18th of December, 1877, and the present date. 6792. Dr. Hector.] Is there any annual report of the operations of the Museum ?—The annual report for this year has been sent in to the Council of the University. 6793. Is it required by law, or by resolutiou of the Council ?—Nothing has been settled; but I thought it better to send the report in. 6794. To whom did you send it ? —The Eegistrar of the University. 6795. But it is not required under the Museum Act ?—Not that I am aware of. 6796. Professor Cook.] Would you have any objection to tell us how the £600 is expended ? I think you said £450 was spent in wages ? —Tes. 0797. Did you get part of that sum as director? —No ; I get nothing. lam paid £600 a year as Professor of Natural History. 6798. And the curatorship is connected with the professorship ?—Tes. The taxidermist gets £220, the articulator gets £150, and the janitor gets £80. That is how the £450 is made up. 43— H. 1.

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6799. Dr. Rector.'] Is there a library in connection with the Museum ? —Yes. It is kept up out of the Museum funds. CBOO. Out of the endowment provided by the Act ?—No ; because that has not come in yet. The Museum library was started in this way: When I was Provincial Geologist I was allowed so much money for travelling expenses, and I was told I could spend it as I liked. I found that I could keep my travelling expenses a good deal below the sum that had been voted for me ; and, having been told that I could spend the money as I liked, I applied the balance to the purchase of books, which I put in the Museum library. The Provincial Government also gave me a vote of, I think, £250 for the library. That is how it was started. Then, under the New Zealand Institute Act, one-third of the revenue of the Otago Institute is handed over to the library, and is spent in the purchase of books. 6801. Then is it a public library ?—No; it is part of the University library. 6802. Is the University library a public library, wholly or in part r—lt is partly a public library. The authorities are bound to allow it to be open to the public. It was got up by subscription; and the Museum library, I suppose, is exactly on the same footing. 6803. Under the New Zealand Institute Act, the library that is assisted by Institute funds must be a public library ? —But this subscription is paid to the Museum, and I appropriate it to books. 6804. Handed to the Museum as a public museum ? —Yes. 6505. The Chairman.'] Is the Museum better off for funds now than when it was under the charge of the Provincial Government? —No. It would be if it had the whole of the endowment. It used to receive £600 a year from the Provincial Government; and, besides that, I had some money for travelling oxpenses, which was invested in the library of the Museum. 6806. Dr. Hector.] What rule is adopted in dividing the University library into two portions — putting one part in the Museum, and another part in the University building ?—There is no rule. What books I buy I keep in the Museum, and what books they buy they keep. 6807. Are they all put in one register?— No. 6808. Is there a regular catalogue kept ? —There is a manuscript catalogue of the Museum library; I have nothing to do with the other. I have catalogues of the Museum library under my charge. 6809. Then are you responsible for the part of the library that is under your charge ?—Yes. 6810. There is no one else responsible for it ? —No. 6811. It is not in that sense, then, part of the University library ? —No; it simply belongs to it because the Museum belongs to the University. 6812. Is there any arrangement made for preventing the same books being bought for both parts of the library ? —I know nothing of what is going on in the University library. lam sure, however, there is no fear of duplicates being bought, because the University library does not buy anything at all. 6813. Have they no funds they can expend for the purpose ?—I believe not. The University Library Committee has only met once. CSIJ;. Professor Cook.] I suppose practically the difference would be that the books in the Museum would be books on natural science and geology ?—I buy enough natural-science books for working the Museum. 6815. And the general library might possibly not contain natural-science books? —No; they are a different class of books altogether. 6816. Professor Ulrich.] Was it originally intended that the Museum should not remain purely a natural-science museum, but should also become a technical museum ?—The original plan which I submitted to the Provincial Council, and which was agreed to, was that the Museum should consist first of the central part, which is built now, and that two wings should be added as soon as funds could be obtained ; the north wing was to be a technological museum, and the south wing was to be for the New Zealand collection and an aquarium. That was the intention when the Museum was first started, but it has not been carried out owing to want of funds. 6817. Was it originally intended that the University should be erected on the same ground as that on which the Museum stands ? I heard that that large block of land could have been obtained for the University, and both the Museum and the University built on the same block ? —Mr. George McLean told me ho had offered it to Dr. Stuart, who had declined to take it. The professors recommended that the University should be built on the same block as the Museum, but the Council did not accept the recommendation. 6818. Professor Cook.] Seeing that the natural-history lectures are delivered at the Museum, would it not have been a great convenience for the University building to be close to the Museum ?— A very great convenience indeed for the University. 6819. On account of the loss of time, I suppose ?—Yes. 6820. Dr. Hector.] At whose cost was the Museum built ? —-The Provincial Government's. They voted the money, but the province was abolished before the building was finished, and it was completed by the General Government, the amount being made a provincial liability. 6821. What did it cost ?—The building cost £10,000, and the fittings £2,000, and there were extras which would amount to about £1,000. The total cost would be something like £13,000. 6822. Did the land on which the building stands cost anything ? —No. 6823. Then it has been handed over to the University Council as an additional endowment to the land ? —Yes ; an acre of land. 6524. An acre of land and the building have been handed over as part of the endowment of the University, in fact ?—Yes ; only to be managed for the particular purpose of a museum. 6825. Professor Ulrich.] Have you not, through insufficiency of money, been obliged to appeal to the public in order to obtain funds for cases in which to put your specimens ?—I had to go round with my hat once. I had a quantity of fishes and reptiles which had been sent to me, and which were spoiling for want of bottles and cases, and I got up a subscription and collected £210, of which the City Council paid £100; and that enabled me to preserve these specimens. That was since the University Council took charge of the Museum. I never had to ask for subscriptions before.

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6826. Dr. Hector.] And this was a presentation from the public to the University ?—Tes. 6827. The Chairman.] Theu, is it your opinion that tho present revenue is insufficient to keep tho Museum in an efficient state ? —lt is sufficient to keep tho Museum; it is not sufficient for an enlargement. It is not sufficient to buy the cases and specimens to keep it going. It is just sufficient to prevent the things going to the bad. I have always said I could keep up the Museum for £600 a year —just keep it up. GB2B. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Have you represented the claim you now state on behalf of the Museum to the University Council ? —Very shortly after the University took over the Museum I went over to Sydney. When 1 returned, which was about the end of April, I found that no steps at all had been taken towards leasing the endowments. Dr. Stuart, about a week after I returned, came to the Museum and said there was no money, and gave the taxidermist notice of dismissal. That, however, was not carried out. I repeatedly went to the Eegistrar and pointed out that the endowments ought to be leased at once, and that no time should be lost; but nothing was done until the date I have mentioned. 6829. But I understood you to say that the proceeds of the endowments were not altogether devoted to the Museum. Is that the case now? — They are kept back to pay off debts. The University advanced money to the Museum before it leased the run, and it kept a separate account of that, and made a charge against the Museum, and now it is recouping itself by impounding a part of the Museum's revenue. 6830. Is the site of tho Museum better for public access than the site of the University buildings ? —Tes, much better; it is much more central, and cabs run along the street, and the pavements are good. 6531. The Chairman.] Do you think the circumstances of Dunedin, as regards its population and the number of hospital patients, were such as to warrant the establishment of a medical school ? —I should not like to give an opinion on that point. Any opinion of mine would be valueless. 6832. Are any of the lectures given by you open to the public, or are they confined exclusively to students ? —I give a lecture on geology every Monday evening at S o'clock, which is open to the public. 6833. Professor Shand.] Are these lectures largely attended ?—Tes. The highest number at one lecture was 195, aud the smallest number has been 90. The attendance is, of course, a good deal affected by the weather. 6834. Tou deliver them every week ? —Tes. 6835. The Chairman.] During the session ? —Tes. 6836. Dr. Wallis.] Are they free ?—Tes. ■ 6837. The Chairman.] Where are they delivered ?—lu the Museum. 6538. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you find that from the attendants at these lectures you get a supply of real students ?—I think that the lectures I gave a year or two ago, on the principles of biology, enabled me to make a class the next year. I think it started my class. I could not get anybody when I advertised at first, but the session after I had given tho lectures I made a class, and have had one ever since. 6839. The Chairman.] Do you think the present mode of constituting the Otago University Council is a satisfactory mode ?—No, decidedly not. 6840. Have you formed any idea as to what would be abetter mode of appointing the Council ?— Tes, I have thought it over. In my opiniou the institution ought to be a college of the New Zealand University, governed by a Board of Governors, consisting probably of twelve, of whom, say, four should be appointed by the Governor in Council, four elected by the Professorial Board, and four by the graduates of the New Zealand University who had been educated at the college when they reached a certain number —say twenty. Until that number was reached I think the Governor in Council should nominate eight. The Board of Governors should choose an annual chairman. 6841. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you make such a mode applicable at once, to the extent of removing the present Council and beginning anew, or simply apply it to the filling-up of vacancies ? —The sooner the better. 6842 The Chairman.] The power of appointment at present, I think, rests with the Government ? —Tes, altogether. The Government appoint the members for life, and no change can be made. 6843. Professor Brown.] Would you make any condition as to the term of office, in the constitution you propose ? —I think one of each of the four should retire every year, and be eligible for re-election. 6844. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you also propose that the ones who are named should retire and be eligible for reappointment ? —Tes. 6845. Professor Brown.] Would you explain what you mean by " a college of the New Zealand University" ? —I mean that the New Zealand University ought to consist of a certain number—say four colleges, each financially independent, but each educationally under the Senate of the New Zealand University. 6846. The Chairman.] Would you have each college to grant degrees ? —No ; they would be educationally under the New Zealand University, which is the only body granting degrees. And I think each of these colleges ought to have a revenue of not less than £3,000 a year. I think that ought to be made a sine qua non of affiliation with the New Zealand University. 6847. Professor Brown.] From endowments ?—Or from Government vote. 6848. Professor Shand.] Tou mean £3,000 available for University instruction, I presume ?—Tes. 6849. Professor Brown.] And separate from the fees?—Tes; either by annual vote from the Government, or by endowment. 6850. Professor Cook.] Do you think £3,000 a year would be enough for a college ?—Tes, I think it would be enough to start upon. 6851. The Chairman.] How many professors would you contemplate for £3,000 a year?— Four professors, and one or two lecturers,

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6852. Dr. Hector.] Supposing part of that £3,000 was derived from fees taken from a department of the college devoted to secondary school instruction, would you think it fair to iuclude that as part of the £3,000 ? —So long as it was not the fees of the students themselves ; because it would not be fair to the professors of the colleges if they got less remuneration than the professors in other colleges. They ought to be on an equality all through J.ew Zealand. 6853. But I mean would it be desirable that a grammar school should be attached to a college in order to produce revenue ? —Very undesirable. 6554. Professor Cook.] "Would you contemplate that any grammar school should be affiliated to the University ? —No. 6855. Professor Brown.] "Would you state your objections to the affiliation of grammar schools ?— They cannot, in the first place, teach up to the University standard, and consequently they must always be attempting to bring down the University teaching to the grammar-school standard. 6556. Professor Cook.] Are you aware whether such has been actually the case in the history of the New Zealand University ? —No. I am of opinion that it has been ; but, not having been on the University Senate, I have no personal knowledge of the fact. 6857. Dr. Hector.] In what part of New Zealand has the college standard been brought down to that of the grammar school ? —I think they tried to bring it down in Auckland. 6558. Do you mean it was originally a college educational standard, and has been brought down ?—No. The authorities of affiliated grammar schools have attempted to lower the University standard, in order to be able to pass their students. 6859. Professor Brown.] Have attempted to lower the standard of the course for University students ? —Tes. 6860. Dr. Hector.] Is the University standard in any way influenced by affiliated grammar schools ? —They have some members on the Senate. 6861. Professor Shand.] Can you tell us, as a matter of fact, whether the standard of the New Zealand University has been raised, consequent upon tho affiliation of the Canterbury College and the Otago University? —Yes. One of the conditions on which tho Otago University affiliated was that tho standard should be raised, and it was raised, and has been kept up ever since. 68G2. Do you consider that the standard was too low for a University degree before ? —Certainly. 6863. Dr. Hector.] "But was not that to some extent due to the fact that they could not get any higher teaching before? —Tou should not put the examination to catch the lowest. Tou should make the examination high, and compel them to work up to it. 6864. What would the money be spent on in the meantime ? —Keep the money if nobody conies forward, and invest it. 6865. But do you think that if the .New Zealand University had stood with its hands folded, and done nothing with its annual grant, and had waited until students of a sufficiently high standard came forward, it would have succeeded in establishing a University at all ? —I think it would have got people to come forward. 6866. Professor Brown.] Do you think the funds of the New Zealand University would have been better expended on grammar schools directly, than ou trying to make grammar schools Universities?— Ido not think it right to spend the funds on one or the other object. I think it would be a misappropriation of the funds. 6567. Dr. Hector.] Tou hold the position of lecturer, and were paid out of a grant from the New Zealand University, for the purpose of establishing a lectureship in Wellington with the view of raising the standard of the Wellington College?—l was teacher of natural science in tho Wellington College for a few* months, and received a salary at the rate of £-150 a year ; but how the money was derived I do not know. 6868. The Chairman.] For what period did you receive that salary ?—I think about six months. 6869. Hon. W. Gisborne.] lam not quite clear what you mean by affiliation. What do you mean by a school being affiliated to the University ? —I should like to do away with the term " affiliation " altogether. I should like the New Zealand University to consist of the colleges, and have no affiliation at all. 6870. And the secondary education would be given in the public schools, which would prepare for the colleges ? —Tes. 6571. Then the University would grant the degrees?—Tes. After a student has matriculated he should not be kept on in the same establishment in which he was educated up to his matriculation. 6572. He would receive his education in the college? —Tes. 6873. Then do you think the New Zealand University ought to be stationed in one place?— The New Zealand University, I think, should meet at the different centres, as it does now. But I think the Senate should be constituted very differently to what it is now. 6871. How do you think the Senate should be constituted?—l think it should be constituted in this way: that each college of the University should send up, say, four representatives to the University Senate. I should propose that the Board of Governors of each college should elect four of their own body to represent the college in the Senate; and then I would have a certain number of members —say eight—appointed by the Governor in Council. 6875. Professor Brown.] Would you propose that these should hold offico for lifo ?—No; they should retire in the way I indicated before —by rotation. 6876. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the graduates should be directly repiresentcd on the Senate? —I think the way I have mentioned would be preferable. They would be indirectly represented under that plan : they would choose a certaiu number of the governors of the colleges, and the governors of the colleges would elect members to represent the colleges on the Senate. 6577. Would you prefer that the representation of tho professors in the constitution of the Senate should be of the same kind ?—I think so; because the governors of the college would be better acquainted with the wants of their college, and be better able to represent it on the Senate than outsiders who might be elected. 6878. The Chairman.] Would you propose that the professors of the colleges should bo eligible

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for seats on the University ? —Tes. and on the Boards of Governors also ; but they should not be . allowed to vote on any question relating to their emoluments. 6879. Professor Cook.] But on the Senate of the New Zealand University no such question would arise ?—No. 6880. Dr. Hector.] Would you havo the Government nominate any members to the Senate of the New Zealand University, apart from the Council ?—Tes: I said eight; and four to be elected by each college. 6881. The Council of each college being partly nominated, to begin with? —Tes. 6882. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Supposing there were six colleges, would you still recommend that they should each elect four, and that the Government should appoint eight?—l think so. If there were six colleges, they would keep one another in order pretty well. 6883. Do you see any objection to the adoption in this colony of a system similar to that which I believe exists in England, in connection with the Universities of both Oxford and Cambridge, by which local examinations are held for schools which like to come under the conditions, and certificates of award given ? —No, I see no objection to that. 6881. Affiliation, in that view, you do not object to ? —No. 6885. I suppose the objection to affiliation, as it exists at present, is that the grammar schools are really made part of the University ; and what you propose is that, instead of that, colleges should constitute the University ? —Tes. 6886. And grammar schools be eliminated, and stand in the same position to the University as all the public schools do in England?—Tes. 6887. But that tho University itself should consist of colleges ?—Tes. 6853. Colleges to be financially independent, but educationally to constitute the University?— Tes. 6889. And that the University alone should grant degrees ?—Tes. 6890. And that there should be one University in New Zealand, which should be peripatetic ? — Tes. 6891. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the University Senate as at present constituted has a sufficiently direct relation to the colleges, and sufficient control over them ? —No ; I think it is the weak point of the present system, that the University Senate has no control over the colleges, except by appointing examiners and fixing the standard of examinations. 6892. Would you describe the extent to which you think control should be exercised ? —I think that if each college were represented on the Senate considerably more control might be exercised, especially in the fixing of the dates of terms and vacations, so that examinations might be arranged properly and with fairness to every person, and also with regard to what is meant by tho keeping of terms, as to which there should be a uniform practice throughout all the colleges of the University. 6593. Do you think that, if the colleges were represented as you propose, the Senate of the New Zealand University should have any voice in the appointment of professors in the separate institutions ?—I think the colleges should be allowed to found Chairs or appoint professors in the faculties of arts and science ; but that no college should be permitted to establish a Chair of any technical subject except by the authority of the Senate of the New* Zealand University. 6891. With what object do you propose that resiriction ? —To prevent the multiplication of technical schools all over New Zealand. 6895. To secure differentiation, in fact ?—Tes ; so that the University Senate might settle where the technical schools were to be established. I think also that the Senate should havo tho power of appointing Chairs of technical subjects itself, provided money was voted for that purpose. 6896. Supposing the University were to consist of a certain number of colleges, as you propose, would you allow a student who was not an alumnus of one of those colleges to study for examination and to take a degree ? —Tes. 6897. Professor Drown.] That is to say, you would allow a student to get his degree merely ou examination, without any attendance or keeping of terms ? —I do not think it is a good system ; but under the circumstances of tho colony it is perhaps necessary. 6395. Under certain conditions ? —Tes. 6899. Professor Cook.] Aud you contemplate such cases as being exceptional? —Tes. 6900. The Chairman.] From your knowledge of the colony, how many colleges do you think would be sufficient at present, for distributing University education throughout New Zealand ? —Eour, I think —at Dunedin, Christchurch, Wellington, and Auckland. 6901. Are you acquainted with the system of collegiate institutions established in Ireland, by the late Sir Bobert Peel, under the name of the Queen's Colleges ? —No ; I know nothing about them. 6902. The reason I ask is because your own suggestion is almost identical with that system ? —I have never read anything about it; I have given my own ideas on the subject. 6903. If such a system were established, do you think the New Zealand University could obtain suitable persons within the colony —say, from the professors themselves —to conduct the examinations ? —I think so. 1 think, that with the Senate constituted as I recommend, they would be competent to choose the best possible mode of examination ; and I think it can be done within the colony. It is highly desirable that it should bo. 6901. From tho body of professors ?—Tes ; examining ono another's classes. 6905. Bey. W. J. HabensJ] Do you think that examinations in science which are confined entirely to paper work are of much value ? —Not much. 6906. Have you thought of any way of securing that there shall ba a certain amount of practical knowledge of a scientific subject shown, in an examination which is he]d at the same time in several parts of New Zealand ? —I think it could be done by the Senate appointing some person. There are plenty of medical men who would do to act in conjunction with a teacher, in examining the students in practical work. 6907. And that should be done at each examination centre?—Tes. 6908. Professor Cook.] Are you avvaro whether any difficulty is found in England at the different

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. local examinations conducted by the Universities, in examining practical work ?—I am not aware, but I think there must be. I have no knowledge of that subject; Ido not know how the examinations aro conducted. But teaching, even at Home, is not so practical as people wish it to be, and the difficulty of examination is the very thing which keeps it back. 6909. You are aware that, under the present regulations of tho New Zealand University, practical work in natural science is prescribed ? —lt is prescribed in a way, and yet it is prevented from being carried out by the examinations. lam under great dillieulties in this respect. I have to waste a great deal of time by teaching practice, simply because, although it is the ouly part which really teaches the students natural history, it is thrown away so far as examination is concerned. 6910. Tou mean that the examiners ignore the regulations, in fact ? —No; they cannot do that, because the examination is set down from a class-book. In regard to the classification of animals, for instance, the whole animal kingdom is given, and we have to prepare our students in the whole of the animal kingdom, whether the animals are found in New Zealand or not; so that a great deal of that has to be entirely book-work. It is just like learning geography, spelling, or anything else. The teaching ought, in my opinion, to be restricted to a certain number of animals, which can be obtained in New Zealand, and those animals the students should know thoroughly. 6911. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you think Nelson a good place for a college ? —Nelson is the best place in New Zealand for teaching natural history and geology. 6912. Dr. Hector.] Do you consider it a good place for the study of mineralogy ? —Tes ; it is the best place in New Zealand also for mineralogy. 6913. The Chairman.] "What examinations, under your scheme,' would you have conducted by the New Zealand University—merely the degree examination, leaving the other examinations to be conducted by the colleges?— Probably the matriculation examination and the degree examination; but the annual examination should be conducted by the colleges. But what is required is that the students should know all about the keeping of terms, and the examinations they have to pass. The annual examinations should bo uniform, and therefore regulated by the Senate. Keeping of terms should not mean one thing in one college, and another thing in another. 6911. Professor Cook.] "Would it be likely to mean one thing in one college, and another thing in another, under the system you propose?—lt would if it were left to the colleges to say what the keeping of terms should mean in their own colleges. There must be an outside authority to regulate it, if it is to be uniform. 6915. Do you contemplate that the examination which is at present required for keeping terms should be still left in the hands of the colleges ? —Tho number of subjects the students have to take up, the number they have to pass in, and the amount of attendance to constitute the keeping of terms, should be prescribed; but the examination should be left entirely iv the hands of the colleges. 6916. Dr. Hector.] At the present time you teach only students going in for the arts course and for the medical course?—l am also teaching four belonging to the Mining School. 6917. Is there a degree in mining?— There is a certificate. 6918. Do you think it is desirable that there should be any degrees given purely for science, apart from science taught in the arts course?—l am of opinion that science never will be properly taught until there is a degree for science, separate from the degree for arts. 6919. To what extent do you think classical knowledge should be made compulsory in such a case ? —I think the matriculation examination is sufficient. 6920. How many students have you for mining certificates ?—I have four for assaying certificates. 6921. What are they learning from you? —Physical geology. 6922. Bey. W. J. Habens] Do you think the obtaining of 20 per cent, of marks in an easy Latin paper at matriculation proves a sufficient amount of knowledge of Latin for a graduate ? —I do not think anybody with 20 per cent, should pass. 6923. Professor Cook.] Will you tell us what should be included in a science curriculum ?—I think that, as in an arts curriculum, certain subjects should be made compulsory and others optional. The compulsory subjects should certainly be chemistry and physics, and in the optional subjects the students should be able to take up either a biological or a physical side. I think the scheme recommended by the Commission on Scottish Education is a very good one. Something of that kiud might be modified to suit New Zealand. 6921. Are you aware that mathematics always forms a considerable portion of the compulsory part in an examination for the science degree ? —-No ; according to tho curriculum as recommended by the Scotch Commission. Physics does. Applied mathematics is one of the optional subjects. It is not necessary that a biologist should know any mathematics at all, except what is necessary for the matriculation. Tery often a man who would make a splendid biologist is utterly incapable of learning mathematics. 6925. 1 think I am right in saying that a science degree is never given anywhere without a considerable knowledge of mathematics being required —always an amount greater than that required for arts ? —lf so I think it is very wrong. In the case of many people who might make very able biologists, it might keep them back altogether if they were compelled to go into high mathematics. 6926. Dr. Wallis.] "What subjects would you propose as compulsory in connectiou with an arts degree?— The same as at present, mathematics -md Latin. 6927. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Have you any suggestions you can offer with a view to the establishment of a good mining school, which would be available to all the mining districts in the colony ? —I thiuk a mining school should either be complete or not exist at all. 6928. Have you any suggestions to offer with regard to the establishment of a complete one?—l think it should be under the Government. Technical schools should not belong to the colleges at all. They should bo under the Government, and attached to a college. They might be administered directly by the New Zealand University, out of funds voted to that body by the Assembly for this special purpose. 6929. Why should not mining be part of the learning imparted at a college, and degrees be given for proficiency in it ? —A mining school should be attached to a college where the faculty of arts is

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taught, in order that advantage may be taken of many of the teachers engaged in the arts course. A mining school, unless you could afford to start one completely by itself, would have to be an adjunct to the college, and not the college an adjunct to the mining school. A mining school might with advantage be established in connection with the geological survey of New Zealand. 6930. Professor Shand.] What would bo the advantage, then, of having it managed by tho Senate of the University, rather than governed by the college ? —When I said " managed," I only meant the funds being provided for it. The management, of course, would have to be in the school of mines itself ; and in the college the professors of the technical schools would form part of the staff, and be on exactly the same terms, and on an equality with the teaching staff of the college. 6931. So that, practically, the management of the mining school would require to be in the hands of the governing body of the college too ? —Tes. When I said the "management," I meant that the University Senate ought to state where the schools are to be located, and provide the funds for them; but their internal management would be left, of course, to the colleges to which they were attached. 6932. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Have you any observations to make with regard to schools of agriculture ?—I think that the schools of agriculture might be very usefully employed in teaching chemistry and natural history. 6933. Dr. Hector.] Tou mean they might employ the arrangements in existence at the colleges? —If they have funds, I think some of those funds might very fairly be used for teaching subjects which are connected with agricultural chemistry, natural history, and botany. Professor Black, M.A., D.Sc, was sworn and examined. 6934. The Chairman.] What position do you hold in connection with the Otago University?— Professor of Chemistry. 6935. How long havo you held the position ?—Eight years last May. 6936. Were you the first professor of chemistry at the University ?—Tes. 6937. How were you appointed? —I was appointed while at Home, having been elected by the University Council. 6938. Are there many pupils attending your class? —I have three classes. In one class there are twenty-three, in another class about twenty, and in the third class there are a few private pupils—a few doing advanced work who come irregularly. 6939. Have you any lectures open to the public ?—No. 6910. Bey. W J. Habens.] Is no one admitted to your class who has not matriculated to the College ? —Oh, yes !as many as choose to apply ; but they have to pay a fee. In that sense my lectures are open to the public ; but they are not free. 6911. Have you not, just at present, a much larger class —a special class? —I have a separate class, open to teachers only. 6912. What is the scope of the work of that class, and how many attend it ?—The subjects of lecture are chemistry aud chemical physics, and practical chemistry in tho laboratory. I deliver a lecture every Saturday, extending over three hours, and at the end of that lime take an hour in the laboratory with all my teacher-students—there are about 180 attending. 6943. The Chairman.] Is there any fee charged?— There is a fee of 55., which is for the use of chemicals and apparatus, and which goes to the laboratory fund. 6911. Bey. W.J. Habens.] And the instruction is imparted gratuitously, so far as the students are concerned ? —Tes; so far as lam concerned. They come from extraordinary distances, twenty of them coming sixty miles, nearly sixty from a distance of over thirty miles—from Oamaru, Lawrence, Beaumont, Clinton, Naseby, Wangaloa, and beyond Balclutha. 69-15. Professor Brown.] Are they allowed any reduction in the railway fare?—Tes; the railway fare for each teacher is a guinea up to fifty-five miles: beyond that distance they have to pay the ordinary fare. The guinea is for the six Saturdays. 6916. Bey. W. J. Habens.] This is a concession by the Baiiway Department? —Tes. 6917. Would you state how this class originated?—lt originated from the announcement in the Government Gazette that teachers would ouly obtain permanent certificates if they were able to pass in some scientific subjects. I did not see any means of instructing teachers up-country in scientific subjects, and I thought it my duty, as far as I could, to make provision for this of my own accord. At the last meeting of the Otago Educational Institute I intimated to the teachers collectively that I should hold such a class as I have just described; and about 180 have availed themselves of it. The class is so largo that for laboratory instruction it has to be split up into four sections. 6948. The Chairman.] When did you first commence the class ?—I delivered the second lecture of the course last Saturday. There are four more lectures to be delivered to complete the course. I understand that Professor Hutton is to follow my course with a course in zoology, and that Professor Scott will give a course in physiology. 6949. Tou have only commenced the class this year ? —Tes ; only three weeks ago. 6950. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Have you had time yet to judge whether this new class of students displays aptitude, and a proper interest in the subject ?—Tes. The students display very great earnestness in the work. They themselves perform many of the experiments. Last Saturday, for instance, they all performed at least one experiment —mado carbonic acid or hydrogen—and showed the properties of both of these gases. They also tested three metallic solutions, containing silver, lead, aud mercury. We mean to go over twelve or fifteen metals, and take perhaps a dozen of the most important gases, each teacher experimenting himself or herself, so as to be able to conduct the same experiment in their own schools. 6951. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Have they any apparatus in their schools ?—Not many have. I make it part of my instruction to teach them how to get up apparatus in the cheapest way, and to use old bottles, fit them with glass tubes, and adapt other odds and ends for teaching the subject. 6952. Dr. Hector.] How many lectures constitute the course ?—I have announced six at present. 6953. What is the duration of each ?—Prom three to four hours,

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6951. With an interval ?—Tes ;of five minutes, while changing rooms. I made the lecture long because I did not wish to bring teachers seventy or eigbty miles without giving them something worth comma; for. 6955. Are the four hours partly occupied with practical teaching and partly with lecturing ? — Yes. The lecture extends over perhaps three hours, and one hour is spent in the laboratory doing practical work. 6956. How much chemical knowledge can be taught at these lectures? —I expect the students will know all that is of much importance for teaching the properties of the following elements : Oxygen, hydrogen, chlorine, carbon, nitrogen, sulphur, and phosphorus. They will also have learnt something about sodium, potassium, calcium, copper, zinc, tin, lead, silver, antimony, iron, and gold ; and will havo obtained some knowledge of tho most important parts of organic chemistry, such as the alcohols and the leading acids. In laboratory work I expect that each teacher will make for himself or herself the following substances —they have already made hydrogen and carbonic acid: Oxygen, chlorine, nitric acid, muriatic acid, and eight or ten more which at present have not been determined. They have already performed tho testing of silver, lead, and mercury ; and wo mean to take besides, copper, arsenic, gold, iron, zinc, tin, antimony, calcium, potash, and soda, and perhaps ammonia and one or two others as the course opens out, with a few acids, such as sulphuric acid, carbonic acid, hydrochloric acid, and one or two others. That is the course I have designed for tho teachers' class. 6957. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Are they competent to perform experiments ? —They are doing so. 6958. Dr. Hector.] Is this course intended to guide them in reading up chemistry, so that they may acquire a knowledge of its principles, or is it intended to be sufficient to enable them to teach chemistry ?—lt will serve for either purpose. 6959. Hon. W. Gisborne.] What certificate do you give them at the end of the six weeks ? —I am not sure that I shall give them any certificate. Unless I held a very strict examination I would not do so. 6960. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that the tuition in chemistry given by a person who had attended a course of six lectures, even though they had extended over several hours, would be very sound tuition? —Yes, so far as it goes. I would not think it sound if they ventured beyond the limits of their own acquired knowledge; but within these, limits it would be quite sound. 6961. Do you think that if a person who received tuition second-haud from a teacher so trained in chemistry went away with the idea that he had a knowledge of chemistry, he would not make a mistake? —He would have a knowledge of chemistry to a certain extent. 6962. Dr. Wallis.] Over how long a period do these six lectures extend ?—Six weeks. They are given on six consecutive Saturdays, Saturday being the only day available to the teachers. 6963. Professor Shand.] I suppose you expect the lectures to be supplemented to a considerable extent by private study ? —Yes. 6961. Dr. Wallis.] Is the interval of one week sufficient to get up each of the subjects of a threehours lecture ? —Yes. The lecture is delivered so deliberately, carefully, and slowly, that they take a great part of it in notes. Each teacher has a note-book, and takes down everything that is of any direct advantage. Besides, I put into! tho hands of each teacher Professor Eoscoe's "Chemistry," in Macmillan's series of Science Primers ; although my course goes considerably beyond that;, because I think the teacher ought to know far more than he would have to teach. This book is to be had from the booksellers for a shilling. 6965. The Chairman.] Do I understand that these lectures are not part of your ordinary duties as professor ?—They are quite outside my ordinary duties. 6966. And voluntarily given on your part ?—Quite so. 6907. Hon. W. Gisborne.] You said something about the Education Board not giving teachers certificates unless they had attended these lectures ?—I know nothing about that. The Board requires teachers to pass a certain examination ; aud I am aware that perhaps nine-tenths of our teachers have not got the knowledge of chemistry requisite to enable them to pass the examination, or, at least, to pass it with any credit. 6963. They are examined in chemistry ?—ln chemistry, among other subjects. 6969. Then the object of your lectures is to enable them to pass ?—Not exclusively so. Partly that, and partly a wish to encourage the teaching of chemistry. I think our teachers ought to know something of chemistry. 6970. Is not a little knowledge a dangerous thing in chemistry ? —-No ; I think a little knowledge is very valuable, so far as it is correct. But for a man who knows little, and supposes that he knows much, it is a dangerous thing. 6971. The Chairman.] Do female teachers attend theso lectures ? —From sixty to seventy are female teachers. 6972. Dr. Wallis.] Would not your object bo gained better by having a lecture once a fortnight, or once a month ?—The course would then be much more expensive to the teachers, on account of the railway fares, as the tickets are only available for a quarter. 6973. But tho Government would change that?— Still I should prefer to have the course as at present. I think a fortnight almost too long an interval. The subject is better mastered when carried on in one piece as much as possible. 6974. What time have these students for preparation if they take one day to come here and one day to return home? —Twenty or so come down on Friday evening and return on Saturday afternoon. 6975. They are able to get home the same night?— They are all-home on Saturday, I think. 6976. Hon. W. Gisborne.] With regard to your regular class, what are the hours ? —-I lecture fivo days a week for one hour each day, and conduct two laboratory classes for one hour a day'each. 6977. How long do the students attend that lecture ?—Eor six months. 6978. When is their term supposed to be up ?—Tho end of October. The term is from May to October. 6979. Do they go on year after year? —They may take it either for one year or for more. 6930. Professor Cook.] Is your course of lectures on the subject of chemistry complete in one

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year?—Tes; but not in the laboratory. There is no limit to the laboratory work ; they may go on for years. I have had students three or four years consecutively, in the laboratory. 6981. In your course of lectures to matriculated students, do you treat the subject of agricultural chemistry ? —Yes. 6952. Tou do inorganic and organic chemistry in the same year ?—Tes. 6983. Professor Shand] What course in chemistry does the undergraduate usually take ?—He takes usually six months' lectures and six months in the laboratory. 6984. Each course consisting of lectures of five hours a week ? —Tes. 6985. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Is there anything which defines what constitutes a knowledge of chemistry ?—There is no limit: the subject cannot be limited. 6:>S6. Dr. Hector.] Have you analytical chemistry apart from practical chemistry ? —Tes. 6987. How is that class attended? —There are about ten or twelve on an average. 6988. Are these undergraduates ?—Some of them are. I should say the larger half are not undergraduates. 6989. Tor what purpose are they following this course of chemistry? —They arc usually metalworkers in town ; also a few druggists, one or two engineers and surveyors, one or two bankers, and one or two farmers. 6990. Hon. W. Gisborne,] Can you tell us whether chemists in England have to acquire a certain knowledge of chemistry before they can dispense drugs ?—Tes; they are examined, I suppose, at Apothecaries' Hall. 6991. Do you know what the examination is? —At the present moment I cannot define the limits of it. 6992. Tou do not know what they are examined in before they can practise as chemists ? —They are examined, I suppose, in materia medica to a certain extent, as well as in chemistry. 6993. But I mean as regards chemistry ?—Our chemistry goes considerably beyond the requirements for apothecaries in England. 6994. Jrlave you any conditions imposed upon you relative to taking private pupils ? —_N"o; we simply charge the University fees, the same as for ordinary matriculated students. 6995. Professor Cook.] Do you give lectures in chemistry as applied to agriculture ?—JSTo, except as it comes in the course. Eor instance, in lecturing on lime I take occasion to say all that is important upon the relation of lime to agriculture. The same with phosphates and other substances. There is no separate course for agricultural students, but a great deal is included in the lectures which is suitable for agricultural students. 6996. Do you give lectures on the nature of soils ?—lt comes in in the same way. 6997. Dr. Hector.] I suppose all that could be said about the chemistry of soils could be included in a very small part of the lectures on chemistry? —It would not occupy much time ; I dare say five or six lectures would exhaust it pretty well. 6998. But it would not be advisable for a person requiring for business purposes to have a knowledge of chemistry, that he should have his knowledge limited merely to what might be termed the agricultural aspect of the question ?—He should first get up tho general subject, and theu take it up in its agricultural applications. 6999. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Is the agricultural part included in the instruction you give to the teachers ? —Not to any great extent. 7000. Professor Ulrich.] I observe that according to the work allotted to you in connection with the School of Mines, you will ultimately have nine hours per week more than at present—namely, six in metallurgy aud three in assaying. Do you think you will be able to do this without assistance ? —I shall certainly teach these subjects. If 1 can get assistance, so much the better; but if not, I shall do it myself. 7001. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Is your laboratory a pretty complete one ? —Tes. 7002. Where is it ? —Tn the University buildings. 7003. Professor Cook.] Have you no assistance at all ?—None whatever. Ido all the cleaning of apparatus of the lecture-room and laboratory myself, and, indeed, do everything else. I work at present about twelve hours a day. 7001. And prepare your own experiments ?•—Do everything. 7005. Dr. Hector.] Cannot you get a senior student to assist you?—My pupils help me to some extent. 7006. Have you no senior pupil who would be glad of the position of assistaut without remuneration, on account of the experience he would gain, and of the position ? —I think not. They are all working for the course, and they require all their time for study. I think I am entitled to have a firstclass assistant, with a salary of £150 or £200 per annum. 7007. The Chairman.] Have you made any application to the University Council?—No, not within the last three years, previously to which 1 had an assistant, paid £50 per annum by the Provincial Government. I shall certainly make an application when I see auy chance of getting assistance. 700 S. Frofessor Cook.] When you were first appointed did it not seem to you that au assistant was part of the machinery for carrying on a laboratory in practical chemistry ? —I expected an assistant, but there was no promise made to me iv this respect. It is very desirable that I should have an assistant. 7009. The Chairman.] Would you be able to get an assistant on the spot, or would it be necessary to send Home for one? —I think I could get oue on the spot—one of my own students—an advanced student. I may mention, in this connection, that my laboratory class is so large that I have to split it into two sections, aud therefore have to devote two hours to laboratory work instead of one. The class is too large for working in our small laboratory. 7010. Professor Ulrich.] If this is the case do not you think tho laboratory is far too small ?—lt ought to be four times its present size, and the lecture-room ought to be double the size. 7011. Professor Cook.] What is the size of the lecture-room? —I should say, roughly, about 36 feet by 20 feet. It seats comfortably fifty students. M—H. 1.

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7012. Dr. Hector.] What is the size of the laboratory ? —lt is of about the same dimensions ; but the working-table and the shelves for chemicals occupy so much room that not more than fifteen students can work comfortably, and I have twenty-one laboratory students. 7013. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Have you ever given any public lectures ? —Tes; I. have lectured at Oamaru, Anderson's Bay, Invercargill, Balclutha, Puerua, South Molyneux, and Kaikorai. 7011. And in Dunedin ? —Yes, occasionally. 7015. Were they well attended? —Tes; the occasional lectures are well attended. I have at present promised to lecture at Invercargill, and also in connection with the Agricultural Society of the Mataura. I refuse a great many applications asking me to lecture in different parts of the country. The difficulty is in the conveyance of the necessary chemicals and apparatus. However, I shall probably hold a course of lectures in Invercargill during the summer holidays, for teachers, similar to tho course I am giving here, so as to put them on the same level as our teachers here. 7010. What are the holidays at the University? —Six months' holiday, and six months' teaching. 7017. Professor Brown] Is there a midwinter vacation ? —There is, outside the six months. There is six months' constant teaching, including examinations. There is a midwinter vacation of a fortnight, and that is added on to the six months at the end of the session. 7018. Does the six months include the time for matriculation ?—Tes. It may not in all cases. If the lst of May happened to fall ou Tuesday we would probably begin the examination on Monday. It commences as near the lst of May as possible. Practically it does include the time for matriculation. 7019. Professor Cook.] Does the six months also include the time devoted to the annual college examinations ? —Tes. 7020. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Would it in your opinion be more conducive to education,in your branch, if the holidays and time of teaching were spread over the year more, instead of there being such a long interval of holidays after such a long period of teaching?—l am almost doubtful what answer to give to that. My own education having been obtained under a system similar to ours, I have not had an opportunity of contrasting the two, and I have not thought much on the subject. 7021. But what is your experience as a teacher ? You have now been teaching here eight years. Do you think the students would make more progress if the term of teaching and the term of holidays were not each so long? —I have not had experience of any other system than our present one, and should not like to give a decided opiniou on the point. For up-country students, it is perhaps better to give them six months' holidays. It saves travelling expenses and the inconvenience cf moving about. They are able also to earn a little money, if necessary, to help them on in the winter course. On the whole, I should prefer to leave things as they are. The students can read up in the holidays ; and the weather is so hot in summer, and they can apply themselves to their studies with more vigour and energy in the cold winter months. 7022. The Chairman.] Would you wish to make any remark with regard to the mode of appointing the Otago University Council, as to whether you think it a satisfactory mode ?—Xo; I have no remarks to make on that subject. His Honor Mr. Justice Williams was sworn and examined. 7023. The Chairman.] Tou are one of the Judges of the Supreme Court?— Yes. 7021. I understand that you have a seat on the Otago University Council? —Yes, I have. 7025. Have you held that position long?— About a couple of years, I think. I may say that previously to that I was Chairman of the Canterbury College Board of Governors. I was the first chairman of that body. 7020. Are the meetings of the University Council frequent ? —About ouco a month. I have not attended them as often as I should like ; because 1 am very frequently away, and when I am not away I am engaged in public business. 7027. Have you heard of any complaint as to the frequency of adjournments for want of a quorum ? —I cannot say that I have. You will probably get information on that point from the Eegistrar. 7028. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the present mode of appointing the University Council is the best which could be devised?—l should say that at present it probably is the best, but that when the University becomes a more established institution, with a number of graduates, it might reasonably be altered. I have not thought much about the question. 1 have never heard it discussed even. There may be other ways. If any other were suggested to me I should be able to give an opinion as to whether I thought it preferable to the existing mode or not. 7029. Have you formed an opinion as to whether the professors of the University, or some of them, should have seats on the Council ? —I cannot say that I have formed an opinion. 7030. When you were Chairman of the Canterbury College, wero the appointments to the Board made by the Provincial Government, or was there any other mode of electing the members ? —The appointments were made in tho first instance by the Ordinance establishing the College. The members were named specifically in tho Ordinance, and they had power to elect a chairman. 7031. Hon. W. Gisborne.] How were vacancies filled up ? —By the members themselves. I believe that is still the case. 7032. The Chairman.] Did you ever have anything to do with the New Zealand University?— No. 7033. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the system pursued by the Kew Zealand University is the most satisfactory to the colony ? I allude to its being purely .an examining and not a teaching body ?—As the New Zealand University is at present constituted it could hardly be anything else but an examining body; but it is not my ideal of a University for the colony. My opiniou is that, if the funds would allow of it, it would be desirable that there should be, at Auckland and Wellington, institutions similar to those which at present exist in Otago and Canterbury, and that tho New Zealand University should consist of a federation of these bodies. But, of course, that depends a great deal on the financial aspect of the question. 7031. Hon. W. Gisborne.] In your opinion, should the power of granting degrees be confined to tho New Zealand University ?—Certainly. I think oue degree-conferring body is ample.

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7035. The Chairman^ If such a system of colleges as you have mentioned were established, do you thick the examiners for the New Zealand University could be found amongst these colleges, instead of having to go to Melbourne for them as at present ? —lt is possible that they might. But it is very desirable that our standard of attainments should be tested by some external standard—that there should be examiners from outside the colony. However, perhaps lam not qualified to speak with any degree of authority on that point. If it could be managed, J think it would be exceedingly desirable that the London University, or some similar body, should undertake the duty of examining; but it may not be practicable—there may be difficulties in the way. I simply say that theoretically it would be advisable, and would be far more satisfactory, that the standard of attainments here should be tested by skilled persons who have nothing whatever to do with the teaching. 703 G. Were you a member of the Otago University Council when the sale of the old University building took place ?—Tes ; but I had only very recently become a member, and did not take very much interest iv the transaction. I left it to those who understood the matter better than I did. 7037. Do you recollect whether there was any strong feeling on the part of any members of the Council against the sale being made ?—No, I cannot say I do. Ido not think there was. I was under the impression that every one was anxious to sell; but I may be wrong. 7038. Hon. W. Gisborne.] How was the sale effected —by public auction ? —No ; I think it was extensively advertised, and that we had a great difficulty in getting a purchaser at any price. As things turned out, it is probable that if they had waited a little longer they would have got a better price; but my impression was that every one was satisfied. 7039. The Chairman.] If large colleges were established in the centres of population, and federated as you suggest, would you propose that there should be any change in the present mode of appointing the Senate of the New Zealand University, which is by appointment from the Government ? —As the number of graduates increased, I should think the appointment to the Senate might be left to the graduates, reserving perhaps to ihe Government the appoiutment of a certain limited number. But in the meantime, I should say that the preseut mode of appointment is as good as any. 7049. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Would you be in favour of granting some power of nomination or election to the governing bodies of the colleges ?—My meaning was, that if there were three or four colleges, the New Zealand University should consist of a federation of the colleges; that each, college should send up an equal number of representatives, who would form the governing body of the New Zealand University. 7041. Assuming that there were four colleges established, aud that the New Zealand University consisted of a federation of those colleges, how should the Senate of that University be elected ? —I should say that, iv the first instance, the Senate of the University should be formed of representatives of those colleges. Whether there should be an equal number or not it would be difficult to say. 7012. Do you think it desirable, in those circumstances, that the Governor in Council should nominate a certain number ? —lt might be perhaps necessary as a provisional measure; but I think it is undesirable, except as a provisional measure, tiiat there should be outside interference, or anything which would partake of the nature of political interference with the educational body. 7013. Hon. W. Gisborne.] The present constitution of the New Zealand University is, that when there is a Convocation fully formed —that is, when thirty graduates are in existence —the vacancies are to be filled up alternately by election by the Senate and by the Convocation, subject to the approval of the Governor in Council? —It may be desirable that the appointments should be subject to approval; but I take it that the principle of the present or any other constitution of the University should be, that as soou as it is full-fledged, so to speak —as soon as there are a sufficient number of graduates —it should govern itself. That, I think, would be my answer to the question, without committing myself to details, which I should be very sorry to do. That, I think, is the proper principle, however the constitution may be altered in other respects. 7044. The New Zealand University would be a kind of self-evolution from the different colleges ?— That is my idea. 7015. The Chairman.] Could you give the Commission any special information with regard to the Law School which is in connection with the University of Otago?—All I know in reference to the Law School is, that there is a Law Lecturer who lectures ; but I am not aware that beyond that there is any special provision for a Law School. 7040. Have any of the students come up for admission to the bar ? —I think several have. lam not able to speak with certainty as to individuals, but I am pretty sure that several have. 7047. By whom is the examination for admission to the bar now conducted ? —By the Judges, so far as the law examination goes: the general-knowledge examination the Judges have delegated to skilled persons. The details of this delegation were arranged by the Chief Justice. Papers are prepared in Wellington, printed, and distributed all over the colony. 7048. Are they prepared by any public body like the Civil Service Board of Examiners ?—No. 7049. By individuals chosen by the Judges ?—Yes. 7050. Are all these examination papers submitted to the body of the Judges, or merely to the Judge of the district in which the candidate resides ?—The answers to the examination papers in general knowledge go to the gentlemen who set tho papers, and they report to the Judges, and submit a schedule as to how the questions were answered iv each case. The Judges take that report, and if there is any doubt in any particular case, they refer themselves to the answers, and ascertain whether or not the candidate has passed a satisfactory examination—that is, so far as the general knowledge is concerned. In the case of the law examination, the Judges set the papers themselves, sharing the labour between them ; and if the Judge who set the papers has auy doubt about any particular paper, as to whether the candidate has passed or not, the matter is submitted to the whole body of Judges. 7051. Do you think it would be desirable to make it compulsory upon law students to study the arts course in the University, so as to obtain a B.A. degree, with the view of dispensing with the generalknowledge examination as at present conducted —to make it compulsory to pass the B.A. degree, instead of the general-knowledge examination ?—So far as barristers go, it might; so far as solicitors go, it would be imposing au examination rather harder than that to which they are at present subjected.

M>\ Justice Williams.

June 24,1879,

H.—l,

348

Mr. Justice 7052. Is Latin a compulsory subject iv the general-knowledge examination for solicitors ? —Yes. Williams. 7053. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Although there is an examination of a much more difficult character imposed iipon those who wish to become barristers, still, solicitors, by passing the inferior examination June 24,1879. nn( j giving two years' more service, can qualify themselves at once to act as barristers without undergoing the higher examination ? —That is so. 7054. Professor Sliand.~\ The programme of the barristers' examination seems to be similar to what is prescribed for the B.A. degree of the New Zealand University. Do you know whether the papers which are set are of a similar character ? —I have never seen any of the IS ew Zealand University papers. I should think the papers set would be very much the same as those for an ordinary pass degree. If they are not, they could easily be made so, if it were thought desirable ; but I think they are pretty much the same. 7055. Would it be desirable to relieve the Judges from the responsibility of examining in law, and transfer the duty to the University ? —Not altogether. The University might take part of the examination ; but some of the subjects are certainly not of a kind which would, in my opinion, be proper for the University to teach ; for instance, the procedure and practice of the Courts, and the provisions of local statutes. So far as the principles of law are concerned, I presume any University that conferred degrees iv law vrould teach them. If a person held a law degree, he might very properly be excused a great portion of the law examination. He could hardly be excused all. For instance, the University could hardly take upon itself to teach the procedure of the Supreme Court, or matters of procedure generally. 1 presume the necessary qualifications for a law degree would include the law of contracts, the principles of equity, the law of real and personal properly. Those might all be very well taught by the Uuiversity. Ido not know what the New Zealand University requires for a law degree ; but, if the qualifications are at all similar to those required by the University of Cambridge, the degree might very well be taken as a substitute for a great part of the present law examination. 7056. I hand your Honor a Calendar of the New Zealand University, by which you will see the programme of examination for the LL.B. degree. I should like to know whether that programme is similar to the examination which is set before intending barristers by the Judges?—ln lioman law, yes; jurisprudence and constitutional history, yes ; English law of personal rights and the rights of property, probably it would be. It depends upon how the subjects are treated by the University. 7057. I wish to know whether the programme is similar? — Taking page 58 of the University Calendar, and what is there set down as required of a candidate for the degree of LL.B., 1 say that whether or not that would be accepted by the Judges as a substitute for the present law examination, or any part of it, required of barristers, would depend upon the way in which the subjects were treated by the University. Then, if I refer to page 82 of the Calendar and to the text-books prescribed, and find that simply " Stephen's Commentaries " are prescribed, I certainly say that would not be accepted as a substitute for the examination, and that I had no idea the University granted degrees upon such easy terms. The law degree of the University of Cambridge is quite a different thing. If the standard for the New Zealand University LL.B. degree were assimilated to anything approaching the standard of the Cambridge LL.B. degree, it might very well be taken by the Judges as a substitute for all the present law examination, except the purely practical part, and New Zealand statute law. 7058. Hon. W. Gishorne.] You consider the standard prescribed by the New Zealand University for the LL B. degree an unsatisfactory one ? — Very unsatisfactory. lam a graduate in law of Cambridge myself, and therefore I feel a personal interest in maintaining a high standard for the LL.B. degree in the New Zealand University. The University of Cambridge of late years has done a very great deal to raise the standard of its law examinations. 7059. Professor Sale] Are you satisfied with the requirements of the New Zealand Lniversity in the general programme of the examination, as given at page 58 of the Calendar?— There are different ways of interpreting it. 7060. Professor Brown.] But as a mere general programme ?—I think it would be satisfactory. 7001. Professor Sale.] Then what you are dissatisfied with is the mode in which that programme is interpreted by the announcement on page 81 ? —Quite so. 70t!2. Professor S/taud.] Is the standard of the examination in general knowledge for the LL. B. degree of the New Zealand University, iv your opinion, a satisfactory one ?—The examination would be a satisfactory one if for jurisprudence, which the candidates would have an opportunity of studying afterwards, some knowledge of mathematics were required. 70G;i. Professor Sale.] Is the possession of a law degree of any real value to a barrister in England? I mean, does it place him in a better position for the practice of his profession ?—lt places him in a better position in this way : it compels him to study the principles of law. It may not be a direct pecuniary benefit to him. 7064. What 1 meant was, is the possession of a degree among solicitors, for instance, of any real value ?—No. I do not think the possession of a degree is of any advantage in that way ; but the fact of a man having studied the subjects required for a law degree would, in my opinion, be of very great assistance to him —at any rate in the higher branch of the profession. 7065. What direct inducement, then, would there be for an intending barrister to pass through the University course and take a law degree? —He would bo excused the general-knowledge examination ; if the standard required by the University were satisfactory, he would be excused the greater part of the law examination ; and by " The Law Practitioners Act Amendment Act, 1865," the fact of his being a graduate would render it unnecessary for him to undergo any term of clerkship or pupilage, but would render him eligible for admission as a barrister at once. 7066. Hon. TV. Gishorne.] Do you consider the present system of examination for solicitors and barristers satisfactory—that is, allowing a solicitor, by two years' longer service, to become a barrister without undergoing any barrister's examination ? —No ; I think it is very unsatisfactory. I think it is exceedingly desirable for very many reasons that the Bar, the higher branch of the profession, should comprise men of culture ; and there is no security whatever for that. 7067. While there is a sort of pretence of security, there is no real security ?—Exactly.

Mr. Justice Williams.

June 24, 1879.

H.—l

349

Mr. District-Judge Bathgate was sworn and examined. 70GS. The Chairman.] You are District Judge for the District of Dunedin?—Yes. 7009. And Resident Magistrate ?—Yes. 7070. I believe you hold a seat on the Council of the University of Otago ? —Yes. 7071. How long have you been a member of the Council? —About two years. 7072. Have you formed any opinion as to whether the present mode of appointing the Council— namely, nomination by the Government—is the most desirable method? —I have not turned that subject in my mind at all. I can see that it has boih advantages and disadvantages. 707_. -Are meetings of the Council held frequently ?—Monthly, I think, and occasional meetings as business may intervene. 7074. Has there been any inconvenience felt in consequence of adjournments for want of a quorum ?—Not during the time I have been a member. There have been several occasions when business was done without a quorum, and resolutions were passed afterwards validating it. 7075. As a rule, do you thiuk the members of the Council are attentive in attending the regular meetings of the Council ?—I thiuk a proportion of them are, and some are not. 7070. Is there auy provision for the forfeiture of a seat held by a member of the Council ?—Not that I am aware of. 7077. Non-attendance does not disqualify a member ? —I do not think such a power has ever been exercised. It is possible the Government might recall an appointment if a complaint were made. 7078. But would non-attendance for four, five, or six months compel, as a matter of course, the forfeiture of a seat ?—I am not aware of any regulation to that effect. 7079. Do the members hold their seats for life, or for a term of years ? —I presume for life; I know nothing to the contrary. 7080. Were you a member of the Council when the sale of the University building to the Colonial Bank took place ?—No. 7081. Uo you know if there was any feeling in the city about its being sold too cheaply ? Or do you think there was a fair value obtained for it?—As a public man, aware of all the circumstances, I do not think there was any feeling of that kind. The fact is, the building hung in the market for some time. There were several competitors. I have never heard any opinion expressed that it was sold too cheaply. 7052. "Were you a member of the Council when the Otago University became affiliated to the New* Zealand University ? —No. 7083. Are you aware of any advantages that were reaped by the Otago University from affiliation? ■ —Quite the contrary. I see many disadvantages. 7054. Would you mention some of the disadvantages ? —I look upon the University of New Zealand as altogether unsuitcd to the circumstances of the colony. It is not a plant of indigenous growth ; it is an importation of a very cumbrous character, and in my opinion altogether unsuited to the circumstances of the educational interests in the colony. 1 think, if such an institution were required, it would have been far better to have waited until there was an actual demand for it. If one or more colleges had been in existence, and had asked for some central ruling body in regard to the giving of degrees, there might have been some reason for it ; but it was a mistake to import an institution that might be very suitable in London —where all the other Universities kept the Dissenters out altogether, and were more schools for the aristocracy and for the Church of England than anything else —but which was not at all adapted to the requirements of this colony. The London University may have been a necessity ; but I have never been able to discover any good reason why such an institution as we have in the New Zealand University was considered suitable for us, or to be at all requisite. 7085. In the matter of granting degrees in New Zealand, do you think tho power should be confined to one body, or that there might be more than one degree-conferring body in the colony ? —That is a point I have not exactly made up my mind upon. I share in the opinion of some educational reformers, or University reformers, in England, that degrees are, in themselves, not of the value which is attributed to them. No barrister ever increases his practice through having a degree to his name. His employment depends upon his own innate and acquired talent, independent of auy degree. No English clergyman ever attaches a degree to his name ; if he does, it is not generally valued. It may be necessary for teaching institutions to issue degrees as certificates of attendance and merit; but Ido not attach any high value to a degree in itself. Therefore Ido not see the necessity for an institution of the cumbrous character of tiie IS'ew Zealand University to be established at an extravagant expense in a young country, solely for the purpose of granting degrees. Parliament, you are aware, intended quite otherwise when the University was fouuded. It was intended to be a teaching institution ; but the gentlemen who got control of the reins at that time carried out some crotchets of their own. Parliament has so far confirmed that by the Act of 1874 ; but my opinion remains unaltered. 7086. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In saying that the New Zealand University was intended to be a teaching body, are you speaking from private knowledge of the intentions of the members of the Legislature, or from any documentary evidence that is open to tho public? —I am speaking upon two grounds : first, the statute itself ; and, second, debates ou the subject in the House of Eepresentatives, which I led myself. The House confirmed the views I held at the time. 7087. "Was that as long ago as 1870, when the Act was passed? —No; in 1871 and 1872. 7088. The University Act was passed, I think, in 1870? —Yes, I think it was. The Act itself is quite clear to my mind. — 7089. The Chairman.] Are you aware that in the original University Act there was a provision for amalgamation with the Otago Universitv?—Yes. 7090. At that time the Otago University was a teaching body, I think ?—Yes. The intention then was, that the Otago University should be the University of New Zealand —should merge into that ; but, on account, 1 believe, of some inaction of the Government of ihe day, the statute was allowed to lapse. AVhat the cause of that was Ido not pretend to say, although I. may have my suspicious.

District-Judge Bathgate.

June 24, 1879.

H.—l.

350

7091. Dr. Hector.] Did not the University, under the Act of 1870, perform certain functions as a teaching body, by spending £1,500 a year in paying teachers ? —So far as I know, they created a system of their own, which was not contemplated. They affiliated a number of schools of no educational standing, and spent money that way; but I believe that Parliament has so far found fault with their proceedings that any power of that kind has been taken away from them by the Act of 1874. 7092. Hon. W. Gisborne.] You said that it was through some inaction on the part of the Government of the day that tho University of Otago was not merged into the New Zealand University. The 19th section of the Act of 1870 says, " If the said Council of the said University of Otago shall, within six months from the passing of this Act, enter into such agreement as aforesaid for dissolving the said University aud for the transfer of its endowments, then the said University of New Zealand shall be established at Dunedin, in the said Province of Otago, or in default thereof the University of New Zealand may be founded in accordance with tho provisions of this Act at such other place within the said colony -as the Governor of the colony shall, with the advice of his Executive Council, direct." How was it the fault of the Government of the day that the University of Otago did not do this, which would have brought about the establishment of the University cf New Zealand at Dunedin?—l am not familiar with all the events of that day ; but I have reason to believe that the six months were allowed to lapse through some inaction of the Government of the day. 7093. The Government of the day could not do anything. It rested between the two Universities. If the two LTniversities could come to an agreement within six months, then the New Zealand University was to be established at Dunedin ? —There is a condition precedent,so to speak: AVas the University of New Zealand established by law at the time ? Had it been constituted ? Had the necessary Proclamations been issued ? 7094. The Chairman.] Could you state to the Commission what were the conditions of affiliation agreed to by the University of Otago ?—No, I cannot. 7095. I find it stated in the Calendar of the University of Otago, " The latter (the University of Otago) bound itself to become affiliated to the University of New Zealand, to hold in abeyance its power of granting degrees, and to waive the claim which it had advanced to a Eoyal charter." Are you aware that those were the terms agreed to by the Otago University ?—I have no reason to doubt whatever is in print; but I take this exception, that the University Council had no power to agree to such terms. The University of Otago having power to grant degrees, that power cannot be allowed to lie in abeyance, or be taken away, except by a superior authority—by Parliament, or by the Provincial Council. lam perfectly clear upon this point, that the University Council had no power to agree to such terms. 7090. And they exceeded their powers in agreeing to such terms ? —Yes, it was ultra vires altogether. 7097. Is the University of Otago abiding by those terms at present ?—ln one way they may be, but in another way they are not. So far as granting degrees is concerned, they are not exercising that power; but since I became a member of the University Council I have held the view that the University has the power, and that it ought not to be allowed to lie in abeyance —that to do so is illegal, irregular, and ultra vires —and I have urged very strongly that the University of Otago should disassociate itself from tho New Zealand University, and stand upon its own feet, and therefore be of more use. 7098. And what did the University Council of Otago say to that proposition of yours with regard to disassociating itself ?—-They have agreed to endeavour to obtain a charter from the Imperial Government, to enable the degrees to be recognized all over the Empire. 7099. Have they passed any resolution in favour of disassociating themselves?— They have passed no formal resolution as yet, either upon the subject of discontinuing the affiliation or of grauting degrees. They may be said to have taken the first step towards that end, and, if lam spared as a member of the Otago University, I have no hesitation in saying I will use my utmost efforts to get that disassociation carried out, and to enable the Otago L rniversity to stand entirely independent of any other body in the meantime. 7100. Hon. W. Gisborne.] With reference to the delay in the summoning of the Council being the fault of the Government, are you aware that the Act itself provided no means for the Council being summoned together after it was appointed, and that the delay occurred through that circumstance, and that, after all, the Governor took upon himself the responsibility of calling the Council ? — You may be perfectly right; I state my opinion just as a mere general opiniou. 7101. Do you remember when the Council was appointed, after the Act was passed?—l believe the fact remains as I said —that the six months were allowed to elapse. 7102. Not before the Council was appointed?—l do not know about that, but I believe the Government of the day were very glad that the time did elapse. 7103. AVhen was the Act passed?—Ou the 12th September, 1870. 7104. AVhen was the Council appointed?—As I am a witness upon oath, I do not see that I should go into questions of that kind; that is evidence that is already in print before tho Commission. 7105. Are you aware that in the Gazette of tho 18th February, 1871, there was published an Order in Council appointing the University Council?— No. 7100. Are you aware that the Colonial Secretary of the day, in writing on the 2Sth April, 1871, said, '-I regret the delay that will have occurred, after the appointment of the Council, before their meeting can take place; but the Act unfortunately omits to provide the exact mode of calling together the first meeting of the Council " ? —No ; lam not aware of any correspondence. I was only giving a general impression. 7107. You are merely giving a passing impression of your own mind ?—lf my impression is an erroneous one I shall be most happy to correct it. 7108. You state that the expense of the preseut University was extravagant. The University held its last session in Dunedin in March last. Do you remember its accounts being published? —AVhen I use the word "extravagance," I do not mean to apply the term to tho details—they may be all very justly incurred —but I do say that £3,000 a year upon such an institution is an absurdity in this young country, and that we have no equivalent value —no advantage.

District-Judge Balhgate.

June 24,1879.

351

H.—l

7109. Do you remember how much of that £3,000 a year was invested in scholarships ? —But who got the scholarships? Boys whose parents might have sent them to Oxford or Cambridge if they liked. The sons of some of the wealthiest men in the colony got these scholarships. I dispute the expediency of the whole system of the New Zealand University. 7110. I am confining myself now to the question as to how the £3,000 a year is spent, not as to how the scholarships are granted. Are you aware that more than half of that £3,000 a year is devoted exclusively to the founding of scholarships ? —lt may be so ; I have no reason to doubt that. But Ido not admit the expediency of an institution such as the New Zealand University founding scholarships to fill the pockets of gentlemen who are well able to educate their sons. 7111. You remember the accounts being published? —I just glanced at the accounts. I think I showed some of them up in Parliament. 7112. I mean the accounts of what was spent last year? —No; I did not examine them last year: but 1 recollect the old ones, because they showed a large accrued Scholarship Fund, and also a balance on the right side with regard to the expense of the meetings. 7113. But are you aware that all the landed endowments which had been given to the New Zealand University were taken away ? —No ; I am aware of the contrary —that they had no land at all. The lands set aside in the original Act do not belong to the New Zealand University constituted subsequently. The lands were first appropriated by Parliament to a New Zealand University, but not to this singular body that you call the New Zealand University. 7114. But the Act which established it called it so? —It may have called it so, but it is not the University that was contemplated when the lands were set aside for educational purposes. 7115. But the lands were practically vested in tho New Zealand University constituted by the Act of 1870, were they not ? —I do not think so. 7116. They had a fiduciary right ? —I do not think so. 7117. "Well, those lands were handed back again. The Otago University got the lands which had been reserved in Otago and Southland. They reverted back to the Otago University ? —I think Parliament came to a wise conclusion —at any rate it was the only good thing in the Act of 1874 —when it resolved that the lands should be set aside for local Universities. 7118. lam only asking you as to the fact. Did the land which had been vested in the New Zealand University revert back to the Otago University ?—The Otago University has nothing —not an inch of land —but what is vested in it by statute. 7119. The statute of 1874 gave the Otago University 10,000 acres ?—Yes ; but these 10,000 acres are in the southern district of the Middle Island. 7120. Had the New Zealand University, under the Act of 1874, any endowment at all except the £3,000 a year ? —Not that I am aware of. 7121. And you consider that with all the duties devolving upon it, and the founding of scholarships, that endowment was an extravagant endowment? —"Well, I just think it unsuitable to our circumstances. I would leave Universities, like everything else, to grow* according to the natural demand. If Aucklaud, or AVellington, or Canterbury can afford to keep up a University, by all means let them have it; and if Parliament, or the local Legislature, assigned land to them, by all means let them have it, aud apply it to the purposes of local education. 7122. Do you approve of there being colleges at the principal centres, all these colleges aggregately constituting one New Zealand University for the purpose of granting degrees ? —I would certainly approve of local Universities where the demand exists, the same as I approve of the Otago University because a demand exists for it here. The expediency of having any central University for a colony which is, you may say, a thousand miles in length, is against my experience. Mv experience of University tuition goes this way: Iv England, as I have before observed, the leading Universities were merely Universities for the Church of England and the aristocracy. A Manchester man or a Liverpool man, particularly if he were a Dissenter, if he desired a University education, could not. get it. Now, in Scotland it was totally the reverse. AYe had Universities there iv all the different parts of the country —two at St: Andrew's, two-at Aberdeen, one at Glasgow, and one at Edinburgh. The poorest lad, if he possessed ability, had it in his power to obtain a University education and make a figure in the world, such as Carlyle is doing now —an excellent example of the working of local Universities. 7123. What is your distinction between a University and a college ?—I suppose it is almost a doubtful point. A University may mean an institution for the teaching of all the different branches of learning; a college, literally, may be a collection of different professors, but not necessarily including all the branches of learning. 7124. Do you approve of there being more than one educational body in New Zealand having the power of granting degrees ? —I see no objection to it. 7125. Did not the University Council of Otago apply lately for power to grant degrees, and for a charter ?—lt has power already. I contend—and, lam perfectly satisfied, contend most justly—that, in a legal aspect, it has that power already, which cannot be taken away. 7126. As a matter of fact, did the Council apply for a charter ? —They have passed a resolution to apply for a charter. 7127. AVas that resolution sent to the Government ?—I believe it was. 7128. Have you had any answer ?—I do not know*. I presume the Government will only acknowledge the receipt of the application. 7129. Did they not apply once before for a charter ?—I believe they did. lam speaking now from my knowledge as having been in Parliament at the time. There was a hot war between the University of Otago and the University of New Zealand. Both institutions were applying to the Government to obtain a charter. 7130. And the reply of the Home Government was to the effect that the New Zealand Assembly should point out which body should have the charter, was it not ? —No; I think the feeling of Parliament was decidedly in favour of the Otago University. I carried a Bill through the House of repealing " The University of New Zealand Act, 1870."

District-Judge Bathgate.

June 21, 1879.

fl.—l

352

7131. lam talking of the Imperial Government. Was not the reply of the Imperial Government to the effect that there was an objection on its part to grant the power of giving degrees to more than one educational body in New Zealand, and that the New Zealand Legislature should indicate what particular 'b.ody it thought should hava the charter from the Queen ? —lf you say so, 1 take it for granted. I never read the correspondence myself, but I believe that is the effect of it. I was not a party in any way to the settlement. 7132. Do you recollect that the result of that reply was what you may call a compromise of the Act of 1874 ?—I was out of public buj&iness at that time. I came down to Dunedin on the 24th February, 1874. I had no share in the compromise; you may depend upon that. 7133. Eev. W. J. MabensJ] Do I understand you to say that you are in favour of the growing-tip of local institutions for University education according to the necessities of the neighbourhoods?— Clearly. " 7JL34. You understand that there was a necessity for the establishment of a University in Otago ? —Tes ; I think there was. - « 7135. Do you recognize that, in order to the -establishment, of that institution, it was necessary that there should be appropriated the means of establishing the University ?—I think that in a young country it is necessary that some extra means should be possessed by the University. There is a danger—a.patent danger —presented by all endowments. It is found, historically, that whenever an institution is endowed —as our-local bodies are very well endowed—they gradually fall into a lethargic state, and do'not keep abreast of the spirit of the age. liut I think that in a young country it is almost a necessity that there should be endowments. 7130. As a matter of fact the possession by the Provincial Council of funds out of which they could endow this estate was necessary to the creation of the University here ? Something more than a felt want was necessary —means were also necessary ?—lf I re-collect right the want was first expressed in a public meeting, at which resolutions werepassed to the effect that the establishment of a University in Otago was-carrying-out the intentions of the founders of the province, who had always had such an institution in view. Then, afterwards, the Superintendent! brought the matter before the Provincial Council, and the University Act was passed into law, and appropriations made from the jmblic lands to sustain the University. 7137. Supposing that in some other provincial district a sense of need should come to be felt at the present time, there being no Provincial Council to find the means of supplying that need, would you say that that district should be left in its condition of need, or that its wants should be supplied from some other source ? —But, as I understand, there is a large quantity of reserved laud iv all the different districts of the colony applicable to the purposes of local institutions of "that kind. 7138. You would be in favour of saying that these reserves, at least should be applied to such purposes ? —Perfectly. 7139. Supposing that in any* district where University institutions were required, that were found to be insufficient? —Then I would go the length of saying that Parliament itself should find the ways and means. I think that, if the necessity once exists, it becomes a public duty to take care that our young men are thoroughly and highly educated. 7140. Supposing that in this way there should come to be as many as four institutions for University education* in New Zealand, do you think it would be an advantage to have those four institutions in such a small country as New Zealand, and so thinly populated, competing with each other in such a way as would put their degrees into comparison before the eyes of young men who had to determine to what University they would go ;or do.you think one general standard would be better for a young country like this? —The chief weakness in one view is the thinness of the population, as you observe. But that is daily changing. In a very few years the population may be trebled or quadrupled, and I think it is advisable to have local institutions ;• aiid I would give these institutions full power to grant certificates of merit or degrees to those of its students who deserved them. Afterwards, if a demand naturally grew, and if the governing bodies of these four ■'Universities found it was expedient that their powers should merge into one common centre, it would be for them to judge when they found out what was really the best for educational purposes. But, beforehand — a priori, as it were —I cannot give a very correct opinion upon that point. 7141. Professor CookPj According to what you said just now the institution? would not have power to merge, because you hold that the University cannot? —The power is by statute, and the body that gives power can withdraw it. But lam now -only talking of things in their present state. The j)owersexercised were ultra vires, but of course Parliament can put all that square. 71-12. In the University of Otago Calendar there is the following statement: —" In 1874 an agreement was_made between the University of New Zealand and the University of Otaszo, by which the functions of the former were restricted to«the examination of candidates for matriculation, for scholarships, and for degrees ; while the latter bound itself to become affiliated to the University of New Zealand, to hold in abeyance its power of granting degrees, and to waive the claim which it had advanced to a Royal charter. As a result of the'agreement thus effected, the University of Otago became possessed of 10,000 acres of land, which had been set apart for University purposes in the former province of Southland." Do you admit that as a*propcr statement? —I admit that statement, : but Ido not admit its validity. I say that any transaction of that kind was ultra vires of the bodies. 7143. Is it a correct statement of what took place?—l believe it is. 7144. If the University of Otago obtained 10,000 acres of land in Southland as a direct result of this agreement, would it not follow that it would cease to be possessed of that land when it became disassociated from the University of New Zealand? —No, it would not follow at all; because Parliament, in passing tiie Act of 1874, ignored that agreement altogether. Parliament does not recognize it in any way. It passed an Act independently of both bodies, and not following the course they both expected. 7145. Parliament passed the Act of' 1874 on the agreement'of the Canterbury College and the. Otago University to affiliate ?—That is what is said to have led to the Act, but it is not the Act. The Act of 1874 embodied the principle that all reserves should be applicable to local institutions, and upon

District-Judge Bathgate.

June 24, 1879.

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that principle the Otago University has a right and title by law to the 10,000 acres, independent of the agreement altogether; unless you have a University in Southland, which is not very likely. 7146. You said a little while ago that you attached no value to degrees in themselves ?—That is a mere matter of opinion. I speak with diffidence upon a point of that kind, as giving my own personal opinion. My opinion is formed upon the opinions of others. If I had been, aware that I would be examined to-day on this subject I should have brought my authorities. But lam aware of this, that the leading University reformers in England are opposed to degrees. 7147. But how can you explain tho action of the University of Otago in seeking power to grant those very degrees which you, and, I presume, some others, think are not of much value ? —You must understand that lam not accountable for the doings of tho Otago University or of its Council—l am only a humble member; and the resolution I moved was not to the effect of applying for a charter, but of taking the decided step of disassociation from the University of New Zealand. I was overruled. 7148. Dr. Hector.] Do you disapprove of the action iv seeking for an independent charter ? — No, I do not. 7149. But it was against your wish ? —I look upon it as the first step towards securing the disassociation which I think the interests of education require. I cannot conceive how any educational institution can ever have flourished under a central body. There should be no centralization. Lot each institution of that kind in the colony stand upon its own feet, and let wholesome rivalry exist among them all as to who will teach the best, and who will secure the best professors. And, while some say that four such institutions are too many, I think there cannot be too many, if they bring within the reach of the humblest peasant's son in the district the means of a high education. Then you may utilize the four in another way. I would be in favour of the specialization of functions in the Universities—while the faculty of arts might be carried out in each, yet one might be selected as the best for a school of medicine, another for a school of agriculture, another for a school of engineering, and so on. There might be some specialization of the functions, tothe advantage of the public. 7150. Have you any experience of such specialization in the Scotch Universities ?—I have no experience myself further than this, that I quote the opinions of others that University education in England fell behind the age ; and I believe that in some of the German Universities there is more of that specialization, and the consequence is that particular Universities attract large numbers of students from all quarters. It seems to me almost incredible that subjects connected with our everyday life and our advancement and comfort should be so utterly neglected, such as classes for engineering and branches of that nature —commercial education. 7151. AVere you educated at one of the Scotch Universities? —I was three years at the Edinburgh University. 7152. Professor Brown.] How would you secure an arrangement for the specialization of functions in these Universities if there is no central authority ?—But there is a central authority ; there is only one we all recognize—'that is, Parliament. 7153. Do you not think that if there was a central body for the four institutions, specialization would be much better done than if it were done by a body like tho Parliament ? —lf you caught the spirit of my remarks it was this : that it may be in the future. The necessity for a central governing body will grow after your local institutions are established; and the authorities of those local institutions, acting as wise men having the interests of education alone at heart, might agree amongst themselves that the whole four governing bodies should meet as a senate and exercise central functions. 7151. Could not that be done at present? Supposing there were four colleges of the same kind as the Otago University, what would be the objection to having such a centralization at the present time ? —I cannot see any great objection. If the four Universities were satisfied that that would be the best mode to pursue, I see no objection to it. 7155. Bey. W. J. Habens.] At what stage in the life of a University do you think the advice and co-operation of several other such institutions would be most useful to it—in its infancy or when it was full-grown ?—Just when the necessity is found to exist. In the first place you must have the four Universities, and then their different governing bodies combined with the professorial bodies. I have no doubt whatever that in a country like this, keeping the interests of the public in view, they would fall upon some reasonable aud economical mode of dealing with degrees, instead of the extravagant body that exists at present. 7156. The Chairman.] Are you of opinion, that the circumstances of the colony would require four Universities at present for bestowing higher education ?—I would not like to give an opinion. I think there ought to be one, at least, in the North Island, and I believe Auckland to be the most popular centre. 7157. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you see any objection to three or four collegiate institutions in different parts of the colony having one body to represent them, as the New Zealand University ?—My great objection to the New Zealand University is, that it is an institution made cut and dried, without reference to our requirements. 7158. But I am putting aside the present University. I am asking you an abstract question. Do you see any objection to four collegiate bodies having the power to co-operate in one body, which would be elected by them, and called by them " The New Zealand University," and which should act as the representative of those different collegiate bodies ? —lt is entirely a matter of expediency. My own opinion is, that the granting of degrees, eventually, might be better done by the Minister of Education, under power conferred by Parliament. I believe that is also the opinion of some University reformers in Britain. 7159. When you talk of competition being a very good thing among educational bodies, do not you also thiuk that co-operation is a good thing?—l am a great believer in co-operation. 7100. Bey. W. J. HabensJ] Could you state what are the principal disadvantages which have been experienced by the University of Otago in consequence of its affiliation to the New Zealand University ? —I am not prepared to state that, except that in my opinion it is a lowering of the status of the University; and 1 have no great respect nor admiration for the higher education or the tone 45— H. i.

District-Judge liathgate.

June 24, 1879.

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that graduates of the Oxford and Cambridge Universities give. I do not think it is suitable to a young country like this. The tone is altogether too conservative, and not applicable to our circumstances. That might be my prejudice from having been educated at a Scotch University, where there is the utmost freedom and toleration. 7101. Do you know whether the majority of tho members of the present Senate are graduates of Oxford and Cambridge? —I do not know. 7162. You have no reason to think so ? —I always looked upon several of the moving spirits as sueh —like the Chancellor. 7163. Are you aware that he is not a graduate ?—AVell, he was evidently tinctured by a strong feeling in favour of that kind of education. Mr. Carleton, another moving spirit, was a graduate. 7164. Hon. W. Gisborne J] Did I understand you to say that you moved a resolution in the University Council to disassociate the Otago University?—To be disassociated, and revert to our own independent status. 7165. And was that overruled ?—I withdrew* the motion after it was seconded, in consequence of another motion, or amendment, to the effect that we should apply for a charter. 7166. But they can disassociate themselves, if they choose, at any moment ? —I think so. I believe tbey could be compelled to disassociate. lam of opinion that any person having a legal standing could find fault with the whole arrangement as being altogether ultra vires of the Council. If I were a student, and wanted a degree, not from the New Zealand University, but from the Otago University, they would be bound to grant it. They have no pow*cr to set aside a right granted by statute. 7167. AVas it the feeling of the Council that it would prefer continuing affiliation with the New Zealand University, and applying to the Home Government for a charter to confer degrees itself? AVas that the feeling of the majority of the Council? —From what I have seen I thiuk I am safe in saying that the feeling of the majority of the Council is that it should be independent. 7108. I thought you said it should continue affiliation ?—No. 7169. Because you proposed disaffiliation and withdrew the resolution? —I think it is the feeling of the majority of the Council that the University should be disassociated. 7170. But they did not give expression to that feeling by any resolution?— They merely took the first step of applying for a charter. 1 think it follows that if they applied for a charter, and got it, they could not remain as an affiliated body to tho New Zealand University. 7171. They thought that the best way of arriving at that result was to apply first for a charter ?— It was moved and carried in that way, and I believe the ultimate result was that to which you allude. 7172. AVas it unanimous ? —I would not be justified in saying it was. Ido not think there was any opposition by the members present to the resolution ; but I think in the minds of one or two there was a little disseut. 7173. Do you remember if it was a full meeting ? —lt was discussed first at a very full meeting. 7174. Professor Cook.] AVhere does the conservative element in the New Zealand University of which you complain appear ?—I was talking generally of the tone of the higher-class education at Oxford and Cambridge. 7175. But you said that a conservative element appeared in the University of New Zealand, and that it was unsuitable to the circumstances of a new country. "Will you explain where it appears ?— I can easily explain tbat: There are fifty-four members required by statute. There are two Courts— the Senate and the Convocation. The Senate consists of twenty-four fellows, and the Convocation will consist of thirt}* members when there are that number of graduates. 7176. Do you object to that ? Is that where the conservatism comes in ?—I do not think conservatism is the proper epithet to apply to such an institution. I look upon it as a gross absurdity. In a country like this—a body having two courts, twenty-four fellows, and thirty graduates, called a Convocation ! AVhat to do ? 7177. Ido not think you quite apprehend my question. You complained of a conservative tone pervading the University of New Zealand ? —You misapprehend me a little. I said that the high-class education in England, until tho establishment of the London University, was conservative in its tone, and that the New Zealand University partakes of the English tone. 7178. In what respect ? AVhere does the conservatism appear?—l judge from the parties who had the handling of it, and the way they went on. In the first place they are very self-willed—-that is a strong mark, i think, of a Conservative ; aud iv the next place they abuse the public inouey, which is another mark of a Conservative. 7179. Hon. W. Gisborne.] "Will you state how they abuse the public money?— From 1870 to 1874 they drew £3,000 a year. It was the intention of Parliament that they should be a teaching body, but I should like you, as knowing better than I do, to tell me of one pupil whom they have taught, or one student. 7180. I am talking now of the present University of New Zealand, as constituted by the Act of 1874, aud it had £3,000 a year. Do you consider it has abused the public money since 1874 ?—I have no doubt of it. I think that an expensive institution of that kind is not required. 7181. Do you know of any particular act?— Just to go back to the time to which you have alluded —their last visit to Dunedin : AVho wants a peripatetic University to travel all over the colony spending money in travelling charges, with a paid Eegistrar and other functionaries, and everything carried on at an extreme rate ? 7182. Suppose it met at one place? I suppose the University of New Zealand, if it means to be liberal, ought to represent different parts of the colony; and how can people meet at one place without incurring travelling expenses ? AVould not the same expense be incurred if the Senate always met at one place ? —Perhaps that is a very excellent reason why there should be no such body —that it is inapplicable to our circumstances. 7183. That is another argument. But the mere fact of its being peripatetic cannot be charged against the Senate as an abuse of public money. First, the Act requires that it should be peripatetic, and secondly, if it is to be a representative body—and, if it is to be worth anything, it must be a representative body—the members representing different parts of the colony must come together in one

District-Judge Bathgale.

June 24, 1879

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355

place; and I suppose they would have to come in some measure at the public expense to meet at one place. Therefore, the same charges would be incurred wherever they met. Do you know of any other alleged abuse of public money ? —I do not admit the necessity. Of course, it is a matter of opinion. 7184. But this is a very grave thing. AYe are sitting as a Commission, and shall have to report. If you can prove that the New Zealand University Senate has been guilty of any malversation of office or abuse of public money, or even of extravagance—if you can give any instance, and prove it, we shall be glad to hear you, because it is a matter we should call public attention to ?—I bave not applied myself to an examination of tho accounts recently —not since they were in existence before the Act of 1874 ; and I by no meaus mean to charge against the New Zealand University malversation, or that any of its members have done what was wrong or opposed to law; but I dispute the expediency of the law itself —I go to the foundation. 7185. Then you said something about the way in which scholarships were granted—that it was objectionable. AVould you be good enough to state the grounds on which the granting of scholarships under the present system is objectionable ?—You are putting words into my mouth which I did not utter. I did not use the word "objectionable." I was asked to point out the advantages or disadvantages of the New Zealand University, and, on your referring to the granting of scholarships as having been a very great advantage, I immediately asked what was tho use of those scholarships in forwarding the educational interests of the country if they were granted to rich men's sons. 7180. I inferred from that that you considered they were granted in an objectionable manner ?—■ If the New Zealand University has no other defence than that —that it granted scholarships to certain men's children who could well afford to educate them at any University they chose—then I think the raison d'etre is not proved, the University should not exist. 7187. Let us go back a little. AVhen, in reference to your remark that the Senate was extravagant, I called your attention to the fact that half of the £3,000 was set apart as a scholarship fund, you said the way the scholarships were granted—you might not have used the word " objectionable," but you said tbey were only granted to rich men's sons ; and I think it is objectionable unless poor men's sons have a chance of competing equally with the rich men's sons. Now, are yon aw*are of the particular facts? Are you aware of anything that justified you in stating that the scholarships were granted unfairly ?—I did not mean to say there was any unfairness. 7188. Not in the system of confining the granting of scholarships to rich men's sons ? Are you aware that other men's sons have not an equal chance? Are they excluded by the regulations?—l never meant to attribute the slightest unfairness; but that was the result. I am entitled to form my opinion upon what I saw as a result. If it be the result that gentlemen who can educate their children receive the benefit of the scholarships, then I say that is no reason for the New Zealand University existing. 7189. Are you aware, then, as a fact, that scholarships have not been obtained by poor men's sons? —[ am not aware. I know that some rich men's sons did obtain them. 7190. Are you aware that some poor men's sons have also got them ? —They may. 7191. Professor Cook.] Can you conceive of any system which can be devised by which rich men's sons should be absolutely debarred, and yet that there should be a fair and open competition ? —Yes; I would follow the precedent of the Scotch Universities. They have what are called bursaries, which a rich man cannot claim. There must be a proved necessity on the part of tho applicant, and he must pass a competitive examination. 7192. Dr. Wallis.] Are not these bursaries in connection witb the Scotch Universities granted to all who choose to compete for them, without any reference to the poverty or riches of the parents ? — I have reason to believe that the greater part of these bursaries, if not the whole of them, aro special foundations depending upon the will of the founders, and that in almost every case the intention of the founder was to forward the education of deserving scholars, of humble rank, wbo had not tho means of carrying on their own University education. 7193. Professor Brown.] Do you know that it is a fact that the Scotch Universities are trying to get the conditions of these foundations abolished, so that the bursaries may be competed for by all who choose to do so ? —No ; it may be so. 7194. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Does not tbe law here require that the scholarships shall be open to public competition ? Are you awaro of any regulations issued by the Senate of the University which in any way closes up that public competition? —Yes. 7195. AVould you state them ?—I understand that the University of New Zealand excludes all competitors except those who have been taught in affiliated institutions ; and that is one of its weak points. 7196. If the members of the Senate who are present now* state that that is not a fact, are you prepared with any proof of the allegation which you make?—l have no proof but this, that it was a statute. If they have abolished that, and adopted a liberal course, lam delighted to hear it. 7197. AVould you point out the statute ?—-I could not do so off-hand. 7198. Professor Sale.] Are you not thinking rather of the fact that scholars after their election are compelled, as a condition of holding their scholarships, to attend affiliated colleges ?—I think that the fact of their being required to study at an affiliated institution is what was running iv my mind. 7199. Hon. IV. Gisborne.] After they obtain the scholarship, or before? —I observe the words are " three months after its acquisition." 7200. Professor Cook.] Is not a condition of that sort always attached to scholarships ? Are not the bursaries to which you have alluded, for example, held at Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Glasgow, and St. Andrew's after they aro obtained? —I am not sufficiently conversant with the details to say whether that is so or not. There may have been cases where they did not attend anywhere, and pocketed the money. 7201. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Aro you aware whether in the case of the bursaries in Scotland there is not the same rule as that you have just read?— All the bursaries, as I said before, are private foundations, and are dependent on the will of the founders ; and unless I knew the deeds, I could not speak with authority.

District-Judge Bathgaie.

June 24,1879.

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356

District-Judge Bathgate.

7202. lam talking of public scholarships ? —I do not think there is one. unless it is a private foundation. Even the coveted one at Glasgow, that sends a student to the English University, is a private foundation. 7203. Professor Cook.] But could it be held by a student unless he went to tho University after he won it ?—lt is for that purpose. 7204. For enabling the scholar to pursue his studies at the English University ? —Yes. 7205. Is not that a similar condition to the one imposed in the case of tho New Zealand University scholarships ? —I am confusing the scholarships with degrees. AVhen I said there was an exclusive scheme on the part of the University, I meant in reference to the granting of degrees —that they would grant no degree unless to a student at some affiliated institution. 7206. Professor Brown.] Do the Scotch Universities ever give degrees to any who do not attend at the lectures ? —I am not aware; lam not a graduate myself. The London University does. 7207. Professor Cook.] AVill you read the regulation in the University Calendar for 1879, page 54, which commences by stating, " Residence in an affiliated institution shall uot be necessarily required for the keeping of terms"?— But there are a great many attendant conditions: the student must be a matriculated student; he must have passed the annual college examination; and the Chancellor claims to be the judge of the circumstauces, and to say whether he is entitled to absent himself or not. Such a scholarship is not open. 7208. You said just now that there was a certain air of Oxford and Cambridge about tho New Zealand University. Are you aware that the University of Otago has had a very large share indeed in giving its present shape to the University of New Zealand, and in framing the regulations under which it conducts its operations? —I am not finding fault with tbe details, because lam not familiar with them. I believe the professors of the Otago University have had a considerable share; but I know further —I may express, at least, my belief and opinion—that the professors, as a body, were a little carried away in favour of a New Zealand University, and against the independence of the University of Otago. 7209. The Chairman.] Have you formed any opinion as to the propriety of the New Zealand University making use of the professors of the Melbourne University to conduct its examinations ? — No, I have not.

June 24, 1879.

"Wednesday, 25th Jitne, 1879. PkESEKT: Mr. G. M. O'Rorke, M.H.R., in the chair. Professor Brown, Rev. AY. E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Hon. W. Gisborne, Professor Shand, Rev. TV. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Dr. Hector, Rev. Dr. AVallis. Dr. Macdonald, Professor Macgeegok, M.A., M.8., was sworn and examined. 7210. The Chairman.] AVhat position do you hold in connection with the Otago University?—■ Professor of Psychology and Logic, otherwise called mental science. I also lecture upon ethics and political economy. 7211. Of what University are you a graduate?—l graduated in arts at Aberdeen L Tniversity, and in medicine at Edinburgh University. 7212. How long have you held this appointment in connection with the University of Otago ? —I was appointed in the end of August, 1870, and I landed here about the 22nd June, 1871. 7213. How was the appointment made ?—By gentlemen deputed, I believe, by the Presbyterian Synod of Otago. They deputed certain professors and principals in Scotland to advertise. I replied to tbe advertisement, and I was appointed in that way. The nomination was made at Home. 7214. You have mentioned that it was through the Presbyterian body? —Not quite that. The matter stands thus, to the best of my knowledge: The Presbyterian body here handed over the revenue from certain endowments to the University Council. In return for this they retained tho right to themselves of nominating the professor, the Council taking entire control over him after the appointment, if accepted. 7215. AVhcn you say that endowments were handed over, do you mean money accruing from the endowments ? —Yes, money accruing from certain portions of land. 7216. Did they hand over as much as paid your salary ? —Yes ; and it is from that source I am still paid. The salary is paid in by them, and lam paid by the University. 7217. Professor Shand.] AVas it all paid over? —No ; they pay it from year to year. I have'never had anything to do with the Presbyterian body. I have always looked to the University Council as my employer and master. 7218. Are you aware that this appropriation of the funds of the Presbyterian Church was made under an Act of the General Assembly ? —I really do not know all tbe provisions of this Act. I ought to mention that it was stated, in the advertisement on which I applied, that the chair was simply handed over to the University Council by the Presbyterian body ; and that that body had no authority over the chair ; and that no test of any kind would be allowed in the University. If that had not appeared in the advertisement I would not have applied. The only Act I knew of was the Provincial Ordinance, which made the Council entirely responsible for the University. In other words, I did not know the Presbyterian Synod at all in the matter. The existence of " The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 1866," only became known to me on my arrival in Dunedin. 7219. AVill you be good enough to state the provisions of the Act in so far as they affect the foundation of your chair ? —I understand the provisions of the Act to be, that the Presbyterian

Prof. Macgregor.

June 25, 1879.

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Synod has certain trust funds handed over to if, on condition that those funds are devoted to the . foundation of literary chairs in a college or University in Dunedin ; one-third of those funds have to be so devoted. That, I conceive, covers my connection with it. 7220. Aro you awaro whether the funds have increased since your appointment?— Yes; I know the funds havo increased, because two years ago it was proposed to found a new chair out of those funds. 7221. Was that proposal carried out?—No; it has not been carried out, because they have gone on fighting as to what particular chair it shall bo. 7222. Are you aware what the Synod have resolved to do now with the funds ?—I believe that at last Synod it was determined to found a chair iv connection with some other college than the existing one, or to devote the funds to the formation of scholarships. In fact, they broke up rather hurriedly. There was a very hot discussion, and they failed to come to any satisfactory agreement in the matter. I believe the question is still in that position. 7223. The Chairman.] Is there auy other college in Otago ?—I understand them to contemplate handing over the funds to a theological college of their own, of which the nucleus is now in existence. 7224. Professor Shand.] Has that college been legally established ? Is it known to the law ? —I think it is an entirely private college. 7225. If the funds were devoted to founding professorships in a private college, or if they were diverted to found scholarships, do you think that would be a proper carrying-out of the Act nf 1800?— I think it would be a distinct violation of tho Act, as I understand it. 7220. Professor Brown.] AVhat do you understand by the words " literary chair"?—l think the word " literary " is meant to cover the ordinary arts curriculum. 7227. Professor Shand.] As opposed to technical education ?—Yes. 7228. The Chairman.] Did the Synod ever contemplate creating another chair —of mental and moral philosophy?— They wanted to divide my chair into two. They wanted to hand over ethics and political economy to another professor, leaving me logic and psychology. 7229. AVas this done on the ground that you had too much work ? —Ostensibly; but I believe the real reason was, that tbey wanted control over the teaching of those subjects. 7230. Professor Shand.] Have you ever complained of the work being excessive ?—Never, 7231. Bey. W. J. llabens.] Is there any reason for thinking that the control of the Presbyterian body over another professor would be different to that which it has over you?—AVell, I think they cannot exact any test from anybody; but it is possible to do those things quietly. They might get a man to apply pledged before his appointment, for instance, or something of that sort. 7232. The Chairman.] AVhat is the law on the subject of tests? Is there not something about it in the Provincial Ordinance ? —The Ordinance to incorporate the University of Otago, 1869, says, "No religious test shall be administered to any person in order to entitle him to bo admitted as a student of the said University, or to hold office therein, or to graduate therein, or to hold any advantage or privilege therein." 7233. Has that been held to be applicable to professors ? —Yes. 7234. Is there any connection between the Presbyterian Synod and the University Council by members sitting on both bodies?— Yes. 7235. How many members of Synod are members of the University Council ?—I think there are two—the Vice-Chancellor, who is a minister, and Mr. E. B. Cargill, who is an elder. There may be another elder, but I think Mr. Cargill is the only one. 7230. Did the University Council consider the question of appointing another professor, under the powers conferred ou the Synod of creating another professor when in sufficient funds?—l believe they did. The Synod of (heir own motion proposed to found a new chair, but they could not agree as to what the chair should be. I understand the matter is still in tbat condition. 7237. Professor Shand.] Did the University Council make any recommendation to the Synod?— The Council, I believe, declined to accept the chair they wished to fouud, ou the ground that it was not required, aud that another was more needed. 7238. Did they make a distinct recommendation before declining?—l believe the Council desired to have a chair of English literature and constitutional history. 7239. Did they not make a distinct recommendation to the Synod to that effect?— Yes, I think so ; and the Synod got angry, and threatened to divert the funds from the University altogether, in consequence of this refusal. 7240. The Chairman.] Aro your classes and lectures pretty well attended ? —Yes. I have altogether three classes. The class of psychology and logic is attended by sixteen students. The class of political economy is attended by eleven. One graduate, reading for honours privately, forms another class. 7211. Aro all those matriculated students ? —No. I cannot tell the exact number of matriculated students at present. Probably nine or ten, or more, are matriculated students going up for their degree. 7212. Professor Shand.] Do any of tho unmatriculated students intend to go in for a degree under the teachers' examination ? —Yes. A large proportion of those unmatriculated do propose to go up for a degree under tbe clause empowering teachers to do so without matriculation—teachers in town, for instance, who spread the curriculum over a long period. 7213. Professor Brown.] Do you think it advantageous that teachers should have a degree on easier terms than other students —that is to say, without being subject to annual examinations and matriculation ? —I would be inclined to deal with teachers as liberally as possible. I would be inclined to give them any concession short of easier examinations. 7244. Do yon not think that the present arrangement gives the degree to teachers on easier terms ? —ln one sense it does. 7245. Do you not think that the privilege of taking a certificate equivalent to the degree would be quite sufficient for the teacher's purposes, without the University lavishing its degree on easier terms ? —I do not see that the University does lavish its degree on easier terms, except in the sense that it makes the attendance on classes less necessary aud cosily for teachers.

Prof. Macgregor.

June 25, 1879.

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7246. Professor Cook.] Do you not think it is much easier, inasmuch as the teacher is freed from matriculation and three annual college examinations ? —1 think that the annual college examination ought not to be omitted. I would bo indifferent about the matriculation examination. 72-17. Do you not think that the annual college examination, as conducted in several affiliated institutions iv connection with tho New Zealand University, is really a difficult examination?— Undoubtedly. 7248. Are you not of opinion that the University, in admitting certain members to a degree after subjecting them to less stringent examinations than others, is thereby really lowering the value of the degree for everybody concerned? —I believe that the degree indicates a very different value in the case of a man who has gone through a regular course of attendance on classes, as compared with the case of a man who has not done so. 7249. Even if a man has not attended classes regularly, if he is compelled to pass a series of annual college examinations, does not that imply a systematic preparation not implied in merely passing one examination for a degree ? —Yes. 7250. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do the annual examinations, as a rule, depend very much upon the exact work done by the professor with his class ?—So far as my own experience goes, it is carefully regulated by the amount of work which has been done in the class. 7251. That being the case, would it be quite fair to demand that a student who was not compelled to keep terms in college should pass that examination ?—I see no hardship in that, because the examination is defined. The subjects are defined by the University Calendar; the professor must go over that ground, and his questions are carefully confined within that region, with the express object of doing justice to those students. A professor might diverge into any particular hobby of bis own; but I think no professor would be justified in asking questions of that kind in a pass annual examination. It would be a gross injustice. 7252. The Chairman.] By whom is the course of study under you prescribed—by yourself or by the University ? —By the New Zealand University. 7253. Professor Brown.] You decide to accept as your curriculum tho course prescribed by the New Zealand University as necessary for a degree ? —Yes. 7254. I understand that the New Zealand University does not directly prescribe to you ; but, having prescribed the curriculum for undergraduates, it indirectly affects your plans?— Yes. 7255. The Chairman.] Does the University of, Otago prescribe no course of instruction?— The University of Otago does uothing but prepare its students for the New Zealand University examinations. I mean so far as the faculty of arts is concerned. There is a Medical School. 7250. Are there any special text-books prescribed for study under you ?—Not now. There used to be ; but, happily, we got rid of that at tho last meeting of tha Senate. 7257. Are the text-books selected by yourself ? —Yes. I havo always selected my own text-books, and refused in some cases to use the text-books prescribed by the University, because they were unsuitable for the purpose. 7258. AVhat text-books are used by you ? —During the first part of my course I do not use any textbooks. I give lectures ou the physiology of the nervous system. That occupies six weeks of tho course. I then use Bain's " Manual of Mental and Moral Science ;" next, Schwegler's " History of Philosophy;" and then Fawcett's " Manual of Political Economy." These are the text-books. Por logic, it is a matter of indifference. The students take any book they like. The best book in the language is Bain's book —-or J. S. Mill's, or Fowler's. In a large part of my course text-books are merely subsidiary to the lectures. 7258 a. Havo you any duties in connection with the Medical School ? —No. 7259. Bey. W J. Habens.] Do students find any difficulty in obtaining the required text-books ? —Formerly, when the New Zealand University prescribed text-books, certain of them were not to bo got; and my students went up, two years running, to be examined on special questions in special books, which they could not procure. 7260. The Chairman.] Have you to deliver public lectures ?—Sometimes I do so ; but it is purely voluntary. 7201. Have any of your students competed for honours or scholarships in the New Zealand University ? —Yes. 7262. With what success ? —Three are now going up for honours. The Chancellor is throwing certain difficulties in the way of one of these. Perhaps the difficulties arc not made by the Chancellor ; but I think he is unnecessarily stringent in his interpretation of the regulations. This young man was going up for honours ; but he tells me that he cannot proceed to honours, because the Chancellor informs him that, as he did not give notice in time, he cannot go up. The student sent iv a letter to the Chancellor, stating his intention to go up for honours in mental science, aud also to take the LL.B. degree. The Chancellor sent him a letter on receipt of that, saying ho could not go up for honours, because he had not given notice at the time of his taking tho B.A. degree. The Chancellor still sticks to that decision, although the student gave him notice that he meant to go up for honours and the LL.B. degree. 7203. Professor Shand.] Is that an isolated case, or do you mention it as an example ?—I simply mentioned this because the Chairman asked me if any of my students went up for honours; but I know of otber cases in which difficulties have been created in the degree examinations. I know a particular case in which, after long correspondence on my part. I extorted from the Chancellor permission for a student to go up for examination under protest. He was a teacher. He went up under protest and passed ; but they would not inform him, as to whether they would hold his pass examination valid or not, for such a length of time that he was too late to go in for the second part of bis degree. That is the student's own account of tho matter. 7264. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Can you refer to the regulation on which the Chancellor is depending ? —I believe he refers to the regulation which says students cannot go up for honours except in the year after taking their B.A. degree, and that they must give notice of their intention at the time of taking their B.A. degree.

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June 25,1879.

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7205. The Chairman.] When did this student take his degree ? —At the last examination. 7266. Professor Shand.] AVas it not the case that immediately after receiving notice of his having passed the B.A. degree, the student gave the Chancellor notice of his intention to go up for honours ? — Yes. The correspondence is as follows : — Sic, — University of New Zealand, Christchurch, 31st March, 1879. I have much pleasure in informing you that you have passed the final examination for the B.A. degree, and that the Senate at its late session conferred that degree upon you. The diploma will be publicly presented to you in a short time. I have, &c, AY. M. Maskell, A. R. Barclay, Esq., 8.A., University of Otago, Dunedin. Registrar. Sic, — University of New Zealand, Christchurch, 25th April, 1879. I am directed by the Chancellor to state that, in his opinion, the wording of the regulation regarding honours will not permit of the postponement of the honours examination of any graduate beyond the year after the taking of his degree. I note your intention to proceed to a degree in law, but must point out that the regulations lately passed prescribe only three examinations for that purpose. You will, therefore, I suppose, take the second and third, not the third and fourth, as stated in your letter of the 4th instant. I forward to you herewith a copy of the regulations and announcements, where you will find the text-books prescribed for the examination in law. I have, <fee, A. R, Barclay, Esq., 8.A., AY. M. Maskell, Messrs. Gillies, Street, and Hislop, Dunedin. Registrar. Sic, — University of New Zealand, Christchurch, 30th May, 1879. In reply to your letter of the 15th instant, intimating your desire to come up for honours instead of the LL.B. degree, I am directed by the Chancellor to state that you are not in a position to do so, as you did not, in the terms of the regulation, declare your intention at the time of passing the B.A. degree examination. I have, &c, A. R. Barclay, Esq., 8.A., AY. M. Maskell, Care of Messrs. Gillies, Street, and Hislop, Dunedin. Registrar. Deae Sic, — Dunedin, sth June, 1879. In reply to yours of the , stating the Chancellor's ruling, to the effect that I was ineligible as a candidate for honours, I would beg to draw the attention of the Chancellor to the following facts: — Soon after I received official intimation of the fact that I had obtained my B.A. degree, you may remember I wrote to you, informing you of my intention to proceed to the LL.B. degree, and also to honours, at some future period. This I took to be the meaning of the regulation in reference to giving notice on the passing of the B.A. degree. You replied that I could not go up for honours if more than a year had elapsed since the time of my taking my B.A. degree. I then replied that I would leave the LL.B. till another year, and proceed to honours this year. You observe I could not have given you notice of my intention sooner, as I w*as under tho impression that honours might be taken any year after the B.A. degree was obtained; and 1 think that the intimation which I made in my first letter to you after I had received official intelligence in the matter of my B.A. degree, was an intimation of my intention to proceed to honours which would satisfy the regulation in question. I trust that on reviewing the matter the Chancellor may be satisfied with my explanation, and that he will permit me to proceed, as I intended, for honours iv mental science and history of philosophy. If, however, the Chancellor cannot see his way to grant this, there is, I presume, no objection to my going up for my M.A. degree in November next. I have, &c, AY. M. Maskell, Esq., Registrar. New Zealand University. A. R. Baeclay. Sib, — University of New Zealand, Christchurch, lGth June, 1879. In reply to your letter of the sth instant, I am directed by the Chancellor to state that he is of opinion that it is not possible to go behind the express direction of the regulation, which prescribes that candidates for honours shall give notice of their intention when taking their B.A. degree. There is, moreover, another reason against you this year. The examiner in mental science is to be appointed in England, and there is no possibility now of arranging with him for the setting of honours papers, as no intimation has been sent Home that any such papers would be required. I have, Ac, AY. M. Maskell, A. R. Barclay, Esq., 8.A., Dunedin. Registrar. I think that is a grievous hardship. 7207. AVhen w*ould the examination take place if the student were allowed to go up ? —ln November. 7208. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do I understand that the student thought he could go up at any time ? —Yes. He was under that impression until the Chancellor's answer was received, and as soon as he got that letter he wrote that he elected to go in for honours. I know the Chancellor is correct about the time being limited for examination. 7269. Did the candidate, on receipt of information that he had passed the B.A. examination, make his application ?—He made his application within a few days. 7270. Was it expressly an application to sit for honours ? —To sit for honours and the LL.B. degree together. 7271. Professor Shand.] Are you aware whether it is a fact that the Chancellor has power to adopt any course, in the event of his not being able to complete arrangements with English examiners, to engage examiners either in the Australian Colonies or New Zealand ?—I understand that to be the course adopted at the last meeting of the Senate. I may say that the Chancellor has simply made

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the regulations of the University, which were sufficiently unintelligible before, much more difficult by always sticking rigorously to the letter of the regulations. In fact, the whole responsibility of interpretation is thrown on the students themselves. 7272. Professor Brown.] Is there any fine connected with the students failing to appear at an examination which they have given notice of intention to attend? —In such a case I believe a student has to pay a fine of something like £5. 7273. If a student gave notice while sitting at a pass examination, and afterwards found he had not passed, he would ipso facto be fined ? —I believe so. 7274. Professor Shand.] You mentioned that there was some correspondence about another student. I observe, on reference to the minutes of the New Zealand University, that you had a loug correspondence with the Chancellor iv regard to the case of Mr. White?— Yes ; I referred to that case. 7275. Would you inform the Commission regarding the facts of that case ?—Mr. "White is a schoolmaster in town. He passed our matriculation examination in, I think, 1872 or 1873, the second or third year we started. He was not, however, able to attend classes that year, although he fully intended to do so. In consequence of his not having attended classes our Registrar omitted his name from the list sent up to the Chancellor as matriculated students. Not being aware of this, the student prosecuted his studies, attended several classes, and qualified himself to go up for the first half of his B.A. degree. He was under the impression that he had fulfilled all tbe conditions. 7276. Can you tell us whether his status, as a student of two years' standing, was at that time admitted by the Chancellor of tho New Zealand University ? —lt was virtually. It was published in the Calendar, and also admitted by the Professorial Board of Otago. In the face of that the Chancellor, although we had pointed out to him the mistake of our Registrar in omitting to send up the man's name, refused to allow the student to go up for examination. I then wrote to the Chancellor requesting him to allow the student to go up for examination under protest, which was granted. He went up, and passed the examination. For what followed I have only the student's word. I asked him why he did not go up for the second part of his degree, and he replied that they delayed so long in telling him whether they held the first examination valid or not, that he was not in a position to go up, and ho is still in that position. He will go. up to the next examination. 7277. Do you know what was the Chancellor's objection to admitting him to that examination?— I cannot recall the exact form of the objection. 7278. AVas it not the case that AVhite, having matriculated at the Otago University before affiliation, was entitled to be examined by his own professors under the old regulations of the Otago University ?—Yes. 7279. AVas it not the case that AVhite, having this privilege, desired to waive it, and to go in for the ordinary examination of the New Zealand University, and the Chancellor refused this concession, telling him he must take the examination of the Otago University?— Yes. The Chancellor distinctly refused to admit him to the Now Zealand University examination. 7280. At the time that Mr. AVhite matriculated by passing the examination at the University of Otago, are you aware whether there was any matriculation examination in the New Zealand University ? —I believe there was none. 7281. The Chairman^] How do students obtain admission to your lectures ? —My lectures are open to all, over fifteen years of age, who choose to pay a fee of three guineas. 7282. Do any female students attend your lectures ? —Yes. This year I have three female students attending the junior mental science class. 7283. Does the University Council of Otago take any part in prescribing the curriculum of study at the University of Otago, or do they leave it altogether to be prescribed by the New Zealand University?—As a matter of fact, lam not aware that the Council has ever interfered. They leave it practically to the professors, and the professors follow tho curriculum of the New Zealand University. 7284. AVould you like to make any remarks with regard to the composition of the Otago University Council, and the mode of its appointment?—l think the composition of the Council, tho mode of its election, aud its tenure of office are all very objectionable. The Council was originally appointed by the Superintendent, and after him by the Governor in Council, and the members were to hold office for life; but after we had thirty graduates, all vacancies were to be filled up by the graduates. Now, as we have joined the New Zealand University, we never can have graduates of our own, aud consequently the system of nomination will continue. The point I object to is their holding office for life, without any provision for retirement at certain intervals. I think there should also be a change made in the direction of giving the teaching staff a position on the governing body. And, generally, I would content myself with indicating to the Commission that they have the means of testing the administration of the Council, by looking at the number of meetings which have lapsed for want of a quorum, and also the management of our estate during the last year or two. 7285. Have you formed any opinion with regard to the mode of appointment of the New Zealand University Senate? —I think that the modo of appointing the JSlcw Zealand University Senate is open to the same objection as that of the Otago University; and iv other respects there are still more serious objections. I think the New Zealand University Senate ought to consist of members elected by the various institutions under it. The governing body ought to consist partly of representatives of these, and partly of nominees of the Crown, and partly of those elected by the graduates locally educated. 7286. AVould you give such a power, of electing members of the Senate, to grammar schools which happen to be affiliated ?—No. 7287. AVould you confine that power to those institutions which give an academical education? — Yes. I think there ought to be no affiliated grammar schools. 7288. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you mean that the election of members of the Senate of the NewZealand University should be made by those affiliated colleges, or by tho Councils or members of tho colleges, such as the professors? —I would begin with the constitution of tho local governing Councils. I would propose to have them composed of, say, twelve persons, one-third to be appointed

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by the Governor, one-third by the teaching staff, and one-third by the graduates. To those governing bodies I would give the pow*er of electing, say, one-third of the higher Council; a certain other proportion might be given to the Governor ; and the rest to graduates as a whole. 7289. Professor Shand.] You mean that one-third should be elected by the governing bodies of the schools, one-third by the Governor, and the remaining third by all the graduates ? —Yes. 7290. Professor Cook.] You have stated that you do not approve of tho affiliation of any grammar schools. How do you think the University of New Zealand should be constituted, so as to most thoroughly perform its functions ? —That is a very difficult question to answer at present. I think the materials for fully answ*ering that question will not be forthcoming until the report of the Commission is published. But I may say now, that as the New* Zealand University has been, I have had grave objections from the beginning to its constitution and working. I first of all object, and always did, to a merely examining body existing in New Zealand ; for I believo the London University, on which it was modelled, was called into existence to meet a felt want in England in consequence of the Test Acts in the English Universities, and I believe it is increasingly the opinion of those best able to judge that the present constitution of the University of London ought to be somewhat altered, although no doubt it will always have a function to perform in supplementing the deficiencies of the national Universities. I think that the New Zealand University, being modelled on the London University, has operated detrimentally in confounding secondary and higher education. I believe it has injured the schools which havo attempted to give higher education with their original staffs, which were organized only for secondary education. It has also injured higher education by the very great difficulty it caused in raising and keeping up the standard for degrees. Those inferior institutions, I believe, always have endeavoured, and always will endeavour, to lower the standard in order to bring it within reach of the means at their disposal. On those grounds I think it has been mischievous te the cause of higher education in this country. I think I have also given proof in the cases already mentioned that the executive of the New Zealand University is radically unsuitable to the condition and circumstances of the country. I also think that the system of examinations in the New Zealand University must, in the nature of things, be incapable of really examining in science. In fact, the whole system of examination by papers alone will produce most mischievous effects on the education of the country. So far as science is concerned, it will simply make it a cram-subject. The whole tendency of that mode of University education is to foster and encourage cram, and to discourage free learning —that is to say, learning whose object is to master the subject instead of making a good appeantnee at an examination. The whole system of merely written examination is open to the gravest objection, not merely upon general educational grounds, but also upon the ground of its endangering the physical health of the students. I believe that, upon this account alone, public feeling will become so strong as to insist upon a modification of the present system of examination. 7291. These being your objections to the present arrangements, what would you propose for the future ? —I am in a difficulty about giving any definite opinion on that question. I expect a great deal from this Commission ; but if the Commission does not do what I hope, I shall then be in a position to give a clear opinion. I think that, in the present circumstances of this country, we cannot secure proper examination —examination that is not fraught with all those mischiefs; and I would be content to have almost anything which would give us examinations at the same time trustworthy and likely to secure a proper knowledge of the subjects. This difficulty applies especially to scientific subjects. 7292. Dr. Hector.] Can you tell us from your knowledge of the examinations in scientific subjects conducted in the Edinburgh University, in what way they differ from the examinations here ? —For instance, in chemistry every student has not only to pass a written examination, but has also to take a solution iv the laboratory, to analyse it, and to tell its contents. 7293. You mean that the examination for a degree is partly conducted in the laboratory ?—Yes. In the subject of botany, a man gets a written paper, and he also gets a plant to describe. He has to state the natural order which it belongs to, the genus, and the characteristic marks. I think it is not possible to examine in science by mere papers alone. The result is, a great deal of mischief. 7294. Professor Shand.] Do you think it is possible by any examination whatever, whether practical or not, to test the higher forms of instruction in science ?—I believe not. 7295. To illustrate this I will put a case : Suppose there are two students doing advanced work. One applies himself in the laboratory for many months to an original investigation, and thus acquires a command of scientific method, which will be of the utmost service to him if ho becomes a scientific man. The other simply applies himself to getting up the results of science, and also, no doubt, to the principles aud theories of science. If those two men are examined together, no doubt the latter will pass any reasonable examination that can bo applied to him, and the former probably may not pass the examinatiou. But which of them, in your opinion, has got the best education? —Other things being equal, the man who fails to pass the examination. 7290. Dr. Hector.] Are you talking of a technical examination in science, or of that general knowledge of science which is considered part of a liberal education ? —I contemplate at present not merely the course for the B.A. degree, but also the case of those who specially study science with the object of making science their life's work. 7297. And making a livelihood besides ? —Not necessarily. I mean those who intend to become scientific men. 7298. Do you think it would be advisable in the present state of the colony to go to any great expense in altering the constitution of the higher educational system —-which is primarily intended to give an ordinary liberal education —in order to make it suitable for the exceptional cases likely to occur, of graduates requiring high honours in science? —I think you forget. I was not speaking merely of men going for honours, but of those who get a scientific education. 7299. You mean, that it would not be possible to give any ordinary amount of science, and test it by means of examination, unless you had those special practical examinations ?—My conviction, from long experience, is, that education in science is not only useless, but mischievous, when conducted by such examinations as those of tho New Zealand University. 7300. In other Universities, at present, which grant degrees of arts guaranteeing a liberal educa46—H. 1.

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tion, is the standard aimed at in science-teaching different from or higher than the present standard in the New Zealand University ? —lt is not a mere question of standard. The question is, whether science should be included in the regular system of education. Except it is based on such teaching as I desire, I think it is pure mischief. It is not science, but mere cramming. I was myself crammed with botany and chemistry, and passed in them —not mere paper examinations ; yet in a few weeks afterwards I knew very little about those subjects. I wish to save our students from that sort of thing. 7301. I quite agree with you ; but what I wish to discover is this : In other subjects I suppose you admit that examination papers can test a candidate; but is it worth while disturbing a system which, is sufficient for the great majority of graduates, for the sake of merely providing for the thorough testing of a few ? —I think it is, for this reason—and here I believe lam touching the vital point of modern education : Scientific men ars so successfully urging the claims of science to admission into Universities and schools, that the greatest care ought now to be exercised in dealing with science. As I have already said, I think that science, as it has been taught, and continues to be taught, in this country, ought not to be admitted into the schools or Universities. Examinations determine the mode of teaching. One of my objections to the New Zealand University has been, and is likely to continue to be, aa follows :—Formerly men were accustomed to the idea of a University education of which classics, and mathematics, and philosophy, which could bo taught inexpensively, formed the staple subjects; but now, so much have ideas of scientific education been changed, and are likely to be still more changed in future, that men must contemplate an immensely-increased expenditure in the teaching of science—such a large expenditure as 1 believe is not possible in New Zealand in more than one or, at most, two places. If the New Zealand University be so altered or reformed as to be made to consist of, say, four separate institutions, with no suitable appliances for teaching science, then I say that such science as is capable of being taught in those institutions will only be mischievous. I say so because of the expense. I believe that few institutions in the country have the means of properl v teaching any one science. I know that the Council here cannot be made to understand that the teaching of science requires costly appliances. Our appliances are of the uiost beggarly description, except in one or two subjects. 7302. Would it meet your view to have the examinations for the classical, mathematical, and literary part of the degree conducted as at present, and to localize the examinations in science ? — Certainly. Better that than many, all inefficient. 7303. "Would you leave the examinations in science to the professors who teach ?—Yes, with some assessor. That would meet my views to some extent. 7301. You see no objection, under such an arrangement, to the New Zealaud University still continuing to grant the degree ? —lt would remove the difficulty, as far as science is concerned, if the examinations m science were conducted locally and by practical examinations. 7305. Hon. W. Gishorne.] Do not your other objections, as to the New Zealand University examinations encouraging cramming and being detrimental to physical health, equally apply to the Universities of Europe and England? —Not to the same extent, except in the case of the University of London. I believe that in teaching Universities —as, for instance, in the Scotch Universities —cramming has never existed to the same extent as in the London University, and even the English Universities; the reason being, that the examinations are always conducted by the professor, with an assessor, as in Germany. The professor, with an assessor, always examines his own pupils. 730 G. Rev. W. J. Habeas.] Do you think scientific knowledge is of such a character that it is not worth while teaching it except for purely technical scientific purposes? —No; I think scientific method is a most important part of education —perhaps the most important —and that it cannot be taught without such extensive and costly laboratories as I have been describing. 7307. Dr. Href or.] At what period in the course of instruction do you think scientific method is best taught ? —I believe scientific method is first of all imbibed by practice, and that it; is afterwards learned theoretically when a man's mind has nearly matured. It is imbibed when the student is working in the laboratory, experimenting, observing, and classifying. He ought to end with a course of methodology. 7305. Do you not think that a great deal can bo taught in primary education ?—Tea ; but I believe the introduction of science into our education without: an adequate conception of the difficulty of getting competent teachers, and of the cost of proper teaching appliances, will have the effect of disorganizing the old-established subjects, and, in fact, of filling the country with a race of scientific prigs.

Prof. Maegrerjor.

June 25, 1879.

7309. Does that objection apply to natural science? —It applies to all science. 7310. Do you mean the great expense required in obtaining natural objects? —I think you require a good museum for systematic teaching. Botany and geology can be taught inexpensively up to a certain point. 7311. Dr. Wallis.] You speak of the undue expensiveness of a scientific education. "What peculiar expensiveness is there in teaching the science of psychology ? —I alluded to physical science only. 7312. Hon. W. Gisborne.] You said that the New Zealand University was specially adapted to encourage cram. Is it more especially adapted than the University of Oxford or Cambridge ?—I decidedly think so. 7313. Why?— Because the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge provide good teaching as well as good examinations; whereas the University of New Zealand provides no teaching and bad examinations. They provide an Examining Board, without making provision for students being taught. The students in the New Zealand University are allowed to grow up anyhow. 7314. Then take the London University. Why is the New Zealand University more adapted to encourage cram than the London University?— Because the London University was called into existence in order to give degrees to those who, being well taught, wished to find good degrees and good examinations elsewhere than in the national Universities. Here there was no such possibility of obtaining good teachers or good teaching ; and the New Zealaud University, before providing au examining body, should provide good teaching. 7315. Is it not a good way of providing good teaching to establish a high standard of examination,

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so as to compel the inferior educational bodies'to raise their standard of efficiency ? Is not that the proper theory ? —I conceive not. 7310. Suppose we establish a low standard in the New Zealand University, would that produce good education ? —No. A high standard in the Now Zealand University is better than a low one. My objection applies to the whole University scheme. 7317. But it is no objection to the New Zealand University that other schools do not provide good teaching. It only provides degrees ? —Yes ; but my objection to the University is, that it should provide good teaching, and does not. 7318. But it is by law precluded from teaching? —That is why I object to it. 7319. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Suppose that there are institutions affiliated to the New Zealand University, without which the University acknowledges that it would be incomplete, and which are co-ordinated under the University; if the teaching is well done in those institutions, is there any objection to the University being the examining body ?—lf there is a reasonable probability of your getting effective institutions under the New Zealand University—of which I conceive there is not the remotest possibility—-then my objection would fall to the ground. 7320. Dr. Hector.] Do you consider that the Otago University is efficient? —Yes, in some respects. 7321. Aud also Canterbury College ?—I do. 7322. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that if there were two other institutions of the same class under the New Zealand University, the system would be productive of cram ? —I conceive that the teaching iv the University of Otago must necessarily be of that description, because we have to work up to such examinations. 7323. -Ths Chairman.] Do you object to endeavouring to conduct college education in the same establishment as conducts secondary and grammar-school education? —Yes; I think it is most mischievous to both. 7324. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you object to the examination of students being conducted by some one outside of the teaching body ?—My idea would be, to have the teacher present? as examiner, with an assessor entirely independent of the teacher. 7325. Do you think it would bo mischievous if there were four colleges, all equal to the University of Otago, which would have a united examination? Do you think cram would bo promoted ? —I think that so long as affiliated institutions exist in this country, they will simply compete as to which shall be the most successful institution in cramming for the degree. They know that their merits will be judged by that alone, and they will infallibly become mere crammers for that examination. 7326. Do you think that any examination established for a degree is a fair examination if it puts all the students who have been well instructed upon tho strain in order to pass ? Do you not think that a fair examination is one that it ought to be easy for a well-instructed man, who has gone through a full course iv a well-equipped institution, to pass ? —Speaking generally, I thiuk the pass-examination ought not to strain really good students. 7327. Do you think that a student who was really well-taught in most subjects, who was thoroughly grounded, and who had been in the hands of competent instructors, ought to fail at a fair examination ? —Certainly not. 7328. In a fair examination, who stands the best chauce —the man who has gone through the process called cramming—that is, who has most inefficiently attempted to learn something—or the mau who is thoroughly instructed?—As the examinations have been, the man who most cleverly crammed had tho best chance, especially in science. 7329. Is that necessarily a defect in the idea of examinations, or does it only occur in some cases ? —lt is a defect iv tho idea of '"'examinations. 7330. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Does it apply to all examinations ? —Yes. The only question is, which mode of examination is least subject to the evil. AVo havo the worst possible. 7331. Professor Shand.] Has the quality of the instruction in the Otago University been unfavourably affected by affiliation with the New Zealand University?— Yes; most injuriously. In my own particular classes it has had that effect, and I have heard my colleagues say the same. 7332. The Chairman.] AVere the professors of tho Otago University consulted as to the feasibility of affiliation? —I am not aware that they were consulted formally; but I know it was put in this way, that the thing would be done unless they objected. I think lam correct in saying that. 7333. Did they acquiesce?—l think the Council passed a resolution to become affiliated, and tho Superintendent of the Province said ho would agree if tiio professors did not object. I think that was what happened. The professors, having the whole onus thrown on them, did not feel called upon to do anything. 7334. Dr. Hector.] Are you aware that, iv fixing the standards of the University of New Zealand, the Otago professors were consulted, and their advice adopted?—-Yes. 7335. And you still think the effect waa injurious ? —Yes. AYe made the best of a bad system. 7330. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Am I right; in assuming that the general tendency of the views you have expressed upon examination, is towards confining tho work of examination and the issuing of certificates of knowledge to the local bodies by whom the knowledge is imparted ? —Not at all necessarily. AVhat I would like would be to see independent assessors appointed—assessors independent of all bodies. 7337. Dr. Hector.] Officers of the University?— Not necessarily. 7338. Independent in what way ? —lndependent of tho University altogether. Let them consist of independent men known to be competent. 7339. By whom appointed ? —Let them be appointed by the New Zealand University. In that sense they would be officers of the University. 7340. Professor Brown.] Those assessors would examine with the professors ?—Yes. 7341. Suppose that there were more than one or two colleges, would you propose that all the • The witness wishes to supply, before the word " examinations," the words " merely written." —Sec. E. Com.

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assessors should sit with the professor, or that one should be chosen ? How would you manage ?— The whole question is so complex at present that I cannot say I have contemplated all the difficulties that would arise in working the institution. 7342. Dr. Hector.] Do you thiuk it possible to separate mere pass-examinations from those which arc connected with scholarships and honours, and have the former conducted in a more strictly local manner by assessors aud the professor who had pupils to be examined, and reserve the single uniform examination merely for selecting scholars and holders of prizes ? —lt would be somewhat difficult to answer that question, because the general drift of my evidence has been inteuded to showthat the existing constitution of the New Zealand University is inapplicable and inadequate to the wants of this country. I presume you put this question on the assumption that the New Zealand University is to continue. 7343. No ; I am adopting your idea of assessors: and lam now considering how the examinations could be practically carried on. —I would say, frankly, that if this Commission has the effect of securing effective teaching all over New Zealand, I would bo prepared to give an opinion on the basis I have indicated. If the Commission has not that effect, I would prefer to have here an independent University of our own. 7344. The Commission is taking evidence in order to form an opinion, and I would like now to get your opinion on the matter. AVould you prefer to have several institutions, established in different parts of the colony, on a totally independent basis, and with an independent degree-granting power? —If we can secure independent institutions, properly equipped with proper teaching staffs and apparatus, I would prefer to see the examinations, if that could be done, carried out on a common standard—at any rate for the present. 7345. Professor Shand.] Do you quite see your way to tell us how it can be done ?—No ; because I know so much of the difficulties in keeping up the standard in the past. For instance, they might begin to undersell each other. 7346. Hon. W. Gisborne.] If you have a common standard for working, you must have a common body ? —Yes. 7347. AVell, if you have a common body, it must be the New Zealand University ?—Yes. 7348. In that case, it is not the principle of the New Zealand University that you object to, but the mode of its administration —the way it conducts its examinations? —My objection lies deeper. I object, in the first place, to the University of London having been the type upon which the education of the country was originally moulded. But, since the evil thing has obtained an actual footing in the country, and we must therefore put up with it and make the best of it, I would prefer the arrangement you indicate, if it could be done thoroughly; but, failing its being thoroughly done, I would fall back on our local institution. 7349. Do you fully see the evils of having four different institutions ?—Yes ; because they might undersell each other, being all starved. 7350. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I understand you to mean that if there are several local institutions sufficiently equipped for University purposes, you would prefer to have them united ?—Yes. 7351. But, unless we can get them all sufficiently equipped, you would prefer that those efficiently equipped should be separate and independent? —Yes. 7352. Dr. Hector.] In your opinion the most perfect arrangement would be to have only one University, and that it should be together a teaching body and an examining body?— Suppose we had the New Zealand University, with four well-equipped teaching bodies, I feel that the evils of examination would be so great that the four bodies would afterwards break up into separate institutions. 7353. Professor Cook.] AVould that be an evil ? —lt would bo good. 7354. Supposing that those four institutions, which in the meantime would be colleges, developed hereafter into Universities, would not that be a great good ? —Yes ; that is my ideal. 7355. Dr. Hector.] Suppose there is only a limited amouut of money available for furthering education other than primary, do you thiuk it more important that that money should be devoted to putting secondary education throughout the country on a better footing, or would it be better to apply it to increasing the efficiency and extending the appliances for purely higher education ? —I believe that until secondary education is put on a proper footing the higher education is comparatively barren ; for I believe that the higher education cannot be improved except as secondary education is improved. 7350. Do you think that the secondary education of the country at present is satisfactory ? —I think it is very unsatisfactory, for want of sufficient means. 7357. Hon. W. Gisborne.] To improve higher education without improving secondary education, would be like building the roof of a house before the walls ?—Precisely. 7358. Dr. Hector.] In places where there are grammar schools such as havo been alluded to, doing the work of secondary education, do you thiuk that to debar them altogether from college work, and to allow* them to devote their whole time and funds to secondary education, would be better than the present arrangement ? —I think the present arrangement is the worst possible. It ruins both the higher and secondary education, by applying to both a wrong standard. 7359. Professor Ulrich.] AVould you be in favour of disaffiliating those institutions ? —Yes. The effect of affiliation on secondary schools is to make them pretend to do work they cannot do, and tho whole spirit of tho place becomes pretentious and inefficient. 7360. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that, in the case of grammar schools conducted by good teachers, there is not sufficient time on their hands to enable them to direct the studies of a higher form, for perhaps the first or second year of an undergraduate's course ? Would not such an arrangement be found inexpensive, and a great convenience iv particular localities ?—The inevitable effect would be, that they would look forward to the University examinations. Their success would be tested by a false standard, which they ought not to be tested by, and the true test is not applied. Thoy exist for one function, but they expend all their strength upon another function with which they ought not to have anything to do. It is unfair and dangerous to everybody. 7301. AVould that apply if there were only one or two cases of the kind? —Yes. The evil would be, that the best men in the institution would direct their best energies to a subsidiary part of their

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work, and would aspire to be judged by that part, which would be unjust to them aud to everybody else. 7362. Hon. W. Gisborne.] "Would it be possible to establish a medical school in the colony in such a way as to secure that scholars attending the school here would be able to get a full degree, in order to legally qualify as practitioners ? —I may say that I have taken great interest in that matter from the beginning of the Medical School in this place. I was consulted with, and lam familiar with all the steps taken from the first. AVhon I was asked what I thought about the desirability of a medical school, I said it was very desirable as an outlet for our boys seeking a profession, and that it was one of the things wanted here. Iv the next place, I thought it would be possible, as well as desirable, to take advantage of the provision made by the English Universities, to give their degrees to students who had taken two yoars, out of the four years of their professional course, in any other institution where the teachers were recognized as acceptable to the degree-giving body. I strongly urged upon the Council the doing of this, on the ground that it would be a very great boon to the country, and would save parents from the necessity of sending immature boys away from home to a peculiarly dangerous profession, while it would also lessen the expense. On all these grounds I thought it was exceedingly desirable to have two years provided for in this University. I may say that we virtually succeeded in making this provision. I havo all along been opposed very strongly to any attempt to give a complete medical degree in this country, as being a sheer impossibility and absurdity. It may be said, "In towns like Dunedin and Christchurch you have large hospitals and a large body of medical practitioners. AVhy not give a complete medical education there?" In the first place I hold that no general practitioner, who has to practise, like most medical men in this counti*}*, in a very promiscuous fashion, is capable of giving teaching that would be recognized, or ought to be recognized, by a degree-giving body, except in very exceptional circumstances. On the other hand, the medical men themselves would be anxious to get such positions; aud the whole thing would be jobbed. I believe that would be the practical result. I conceive that we ought in this country, if any attempt is made to secure medical teaching, to confine ourselves to what we can do thoroughly, and not pretend to give more than two years out of the four required. 7363. Dr, Hector.] Do you agree with the course adopted hitherto by the New Zealand. University, in refraining from prescribing a medical curriculum ?—Yes. I think it would be the most mischievous sham of all possible shams. The Rev. Professor Salmokd, M.A., was sworn and examined. 7364. The Chairman.] "Would you state what position you hold in relation to the Theological College which, we understand, is established in connection, in some way, with the University of Otago ? ■ —I am Professor of Theology to the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland. lam the only one engaged in that capacity. I have no relation whatever to the University of Otago, excepting that the students under my charge must have been taught for three years at a recognized University. 7365. AVas there any provision, in the Ordinance establishing the Otago University, for having theological colleges or other colleges connected with the Otago University ? —Not that I ever heard of. 7366. AVhat funds are devoted to keeping up the Theological College ?—Part of the original endowments of the Presbyterian Church of Otago. Special provision was made for it in the Ordinance under which the whole trust now is. It is a very limited fund. It amounts, I believe, to £SOO a year. 7307. Have you many students at present ? —Only three at present. There is relatively a large number in preparation. At least twelve are attending the Otago University with a view to the ministry of the Church. It is not essential that the students should take the B.A. degree before coming to me. AYe are obliged not to make even matriculation essential. An attendance of three years at the University is all that is necessary. AYe must not bo too exacting, or we could not get ministers at all. It is not easy here to induce youths to study for the ministry. 7308. Is there any certificate required beyond attendance ? —Yes, nominally. They must undergo examination by the presbytery within whose bounds they reside; but it is very nominal. 7309. Bey. W. J. llabens.] Over how many years does the curriculum extend? —Three years. 7370. Dr. Wallis.] AVhat subjects do you teach ? — Being alone, I require to be more discursive than if there was a regular theological faculty. I devote chief attention to the following subjects: —Apologetics, dogmatic theology, exegesis of the New Testament, pastoral theology, and homiletics. 7371. Do you give instruction in Hebrew ? —There is a tutor in that department. 7372. Bey. W. J. Habens.] AVho is the tutor?—Tho Rev. Mr. AVatt, of Green Island. 7373. Dr. Wallis.] Does Church history enter into the course? —It should properly; but I do nothing in that, because everything cannot be taken up now ; and that, more than any other branch, can be left to private readiug. 7374. Are you the sole professor ?—Yes. 7375. The Chairman.] How long has the Theological College been in existence ? —This is the fourth year. 7370. Have you been connected with it from the foundation ? —Yes. I was the first professor. 7377. Dr. Wallis.] AVhat is the length of your session ?—I have my students with me two hours a day, five days in the week, for six months. It is tbo same term as the University. 7378. The Chairman.] Do I understand that your classes are not conducted in the University ? — No. I have no connection with the University. Ido not think it would be tolerated here, and it is not desired. The classes meet in my house, as being the most convenient at present; but we have in contemplation the building of a college. 7379. Dr. Wallis.] Then you approve of theology being expelled from a liberal education ?— No ; I would not assent to that. But I think it is a necessity of the country aud of the times in which we live, that Church and State should be separated; aud therefore theology must be separated from the national Universities. 7380. The Chairman.] Are you aware whether other denominations or churches educate students ?

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—I believe Bishop Nevill, of the English Church, had some arrangement of that kind ; but I think it fell through. 7381. So far as you aro aware, there is no other education, specially connected with the churches, except your own ?—Not that I am aware of. 7382. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Are you assisted by public funds or endowments ?—No. The funds are derived from the Presbyterian Church endowments in Otago. 7383. AVhat endow*ment is it ?—lt was made when the original settlement of Otago was founded. 7384. It was not given by the Crown, but by the New Zealand Company, I suppose ? —Yes. 7385. Dr. Wallis.] How do you test the proficiency of your pupils ? —By examinations conducted by myself; and the presbytery, after the close of each session, submits them to an examination of the work done, apart from myself. 7386. Dr. Hector.] The presbytery conducts the examination ?—-Yes. 7387. The final test, then, is being licensed to preach? —Yes. They pass through my hands, and then they pass into the hands of the presbytery, which examines them in the various branches of theology, and which, on being satisfied as to their proficiency, licenses them as preachers. 7388. How is their preliminary knowledge tested ? —That is also dono by the presbytery; but it is not done just now in a very careful manner. The fact is, we are obliged to be what I may call somewhat lax just now, because the few who come forward for the ministry, especially those from the country1, have had for tho most part exceedingly imperfect education; and, if we were very severe in establishing a high standard, we would exclude those who might afterwards prove very efficient ministers. Many, for instance, havo had no opportunity of learning the elements of Latin until they came to the University. 7389. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think tho study of philosophy is very important to your students ?—Exceedingly so. 7390. Is there any provision made for it ? —No, excepting in the University. The branches most important are —classics, mathematics, logic, and psychology. 7391. Dr. Hector.] The three-years course of study at the University precedes the course with you ; yours lasts three years : so there are six years in all ? —Yes. 7392. Professor Broion.] Is the preliminary examination conducted after the college course, or before entering ? —After it. 7393. Are the youths, then, so ill prepared as to enforce a lax examination ? —AVhen I spoke of a lax examination, I referred to the standard on entering the University. But of course an imperfect standard on entering the University continues to affect the students afterwards. For example, most of the students under training have only a fair knowledge of Latin. 7394. Dr. Hector.] Supposing that you have had students, some of whom had taken the B.A. degree and passed all the examinations, while there were others who had not—who, in fact, had not gone through any examination, but had come to you under this arrangement which permits them to come without examination —-w Thich had the best chance of succeeding in your study? —Those who had taken fhe B.A. degree, of course. 7395. AVould there be any preference given to them afterwards ? —AVe cannot do that in a democratic church. 7396. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Considering the relations between philosophy and. theology, do you think the philosophical studies of theological students should be conducted under the auspices of a theological college ? —I do not think so. 7397. You would prefer that in that respect the students should take part in the free life of a literary college ? —Yes. 7398. Do you think that, for the purposes of a theological college, the theological professor, under the head of apologetics and other branches, can say all he needs to say ? —Yes. Of course one finds, in teaching apologetics especially, that one is implicated iv all the philosophical controversies of the day. The student is none the worse for having studied them independently. Indeed, he' could not approach apologetics at all efficiently, unless he had previously studied them as branches by themselves. 7399. The Chairman.] Is your school in any way connected with the New Zealand University by affiliation ? —No. 7-100. Have you any special acquaintance with the New Zealand University system ? —Not beyond what I have picked up from its Calendar, and iv a general way. 7401. Have you formed any opinion as to whether iv its present shape it meets the requirements of the colony ? —The present requirements of the colony are pretty well met; but I cannot imagine the present arrangement to be a permanent one. I have theories on the subject in my mind, but I do not know that they are of great value. I have a great admiration for the German system of University education ; and if we wish to have a thoroughly efficient system, I do not think we could do better than to make it our model here. For example, I have brooded over an idea like this : AYe might be content for a hundred years with one central national University; and tho present colleges would in many respects serve a better purpose by being, I will not say reduced, but made something like the German gymnasia. They might nevertheless bo called colleges, but we should have one University. I cau observe just now in the Otago University, for example, that our professors are distracted, and education very much impaired, by their falling between two stools. They do not know* whether to act as superior dominies, or out-and-out professors. Owing to the want of previous education among many of the youths attending the University, the professors require to adopt the pedagogic system, which must always be employed witb youths who are learning tho elements. Between the necessity of acting as pedagogue and the attempt also to act as professor, education suffers very materially. 7402. Professor Brown.] Do you not think that improvement in the secondary schools would do away with the pedagogic element ?—To some extent it might. 7403. AVould it not be better than turning the colleges into gymnasia, to improve the secondary schools, so as to allow the colleges to take higher University work ? —Possibly it might; but to do that

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throughout the country would surely be a very elaborate and expensive arrangement. Suppose tbat a thoroughly efficient education could be got at the Otago University, the pedagogic system being carried out tbere, it would accommodate all the youths of Otago who would want that better education, and those who wanted scientific training for the learned professions would have the University to go to afterwards. 7404. Then you would have four grades—tho primary school, the secondary school, then an intermediate institution between the secondary and the University, and, lastly, the University?—l do not know that it would be necessary to have that. A little improvement in the quality of tho teaching in the primary schools —such as was done in the parish schools of Scotland —would be sufficient to prepare youths for the gymnasia. I would not have a secondary school at all. 7405. You would destroy the secondary school?—ln Germany they have only three grades. 7400. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do not the Dunedin High School, and the other high schools, profess to do the intermediate work between the primary schools and the colleges ? —To some extent they do. But I will illustrate what I mean. I have a son now attending the University who was formerly at the Dunedin High School. So far as his education is concerned, I would much rather have him at the High School. He was better taught, at the High School in the highest class, than he is in the lower class of the University, and, indeed, he was doing higher-class work, just because the great majority in the University class are just beginning the elements. 74-07. Professor Broicn.] Does not that objection hold with the Scotch Universities?— Well, I must confess that it does to a large extent. 7408. And has not the Scotch University system worked well? —Upon the whole it has worked well; but it has not produced a high class of scholarship, and has not been fruitful in literary results. It has spread learning, but has not intensified it. 7409. Hon. W. Gisborne.] AVould not a good standard for entrance to the University do away with the evil you complain of? —It would; but it would also reduce the number of matriculated students very considerably. 7410. Dr. Hector.] Does not the evil arise from the deficiencies of secondary education ? —lt arises from the want of secondary education altogether. 7411. There are no ripe secondary students to go to the colleges ?—No. 7412. Dr. Wallis.] Are j-ou not aware that secondary education is entirely removed from the Scotch parish schools ? —I know there have been some changes. 7413. And that the country is going in for secondary education?— Yes ; I know that there havo been many changes of that kind. I feel that it is a very intricate problem ; but, in view of the fact that Germany is the most learned country in the world, and has produced a race of men and women without parallel on the face of the earth, and has been immensely productive in all departments of literature, I think we are evidently pointed to the German system as our model. 7414. Professor Brown.] Do you not think that England and France have taken as good a position in literature during this century as Germany ? —Not anything like the hundredth part of it. 7415. The Chairman.] Do I understand that you would prefer to see one University for New Zealand ?—Yes, for a hundred j'ears to come. I would like to see it both teaching and giving degrees. 7416. Bey. W. J. Habens.] And doing higher work than those institutions which are now called colleges ? —Yes. Suppose the Otago University were a gymnasium or college, it would probably need to be reduced a little in standard; and its most advanced students would be fit for the University I contemplate. 7417. Dr. Hector.] I understand that the University you contemplate would be an institution where professional education could be obtained ?■ —Yes ; training for all the learned professions. To some extent it would bo a technical institution. 7418. Of that description of institution, you think there should be but one? —Yes —for a long time. 7419. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that that education which all educated men have in common, as apart from the technical knowledge which, in the several professions, distinguishes one from another, should be obtained before going to the University ?—Yes. I think a man should enter the University with a view to special culture for his special vocation ; but that special culture should rest on a basis of general culture. A University should offer to every man who wants it special culture for his special calling ; but he should have general culture behind it. 7420. Dr. Wallis.] The University, then, would not include what we now call the arts curriculum ? —Yes ; but it would take the higher branches. 7421. Professor Brown.] Does not the Otago University take the higher branches at present ? — You can hardly say it does. You can hardly say it is taking the higher branches, or possibly can do so, when a University professor is dealing with Smith's First Latin Principia. I know that is done. Professor Sale may only do that by way of revision, but it may be highly necessary revision. Mr. T. M. Hocken-, M.R.C.S.E., was sworn and examined. 7422. The Chairman.] AYe are aware that an attempt is being made to establish a medical school in Dunedin. AYe should like to hear from you whether you think the circumstances of Dunedin, as regards its population, its hospital, &c, are such as to warrant the attempt to establish a medical school ?—-I do not think so at present. 7423. Do you know what progress has been made with this Medical School ?—A professor has been appointed, and a lecturer on clinical surgery ; and there are, I think, four or five students. I think that is all the progress made. 7424. Are you connected with the Hospital staff? —I was for some time. 7425. AVhilst a member of the staff, did you in any way come into connection with the students of the Medical School ? —I did not. 7126. Are the students allowed to attend the Hospital?— Yes ; they are allowed to attend hospital practice.

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June 25, 1879.

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i. 7427. Do they undergo a course of instruction whilst attending the Hospital, in the way of clinical lecturing ?—I cannot positively say what is the amount of" their instruction. They go round, however, with the visiting staff, and are casually instructed by them; but I think there is no formal lecture given, with the exception of those given by Dr. Brown, who lectures on surgery. 7428. Bey. W.J. Habens.] Is Dr. Brown a member of the Hospital staff ?—Yes; and also Lecturer on Clinical Surgery. 7429. The Chairman.] "Where are his lectures delivered?—At the Hospital. 7430. Dr. Hector.] Are they purely clinical lectures, or on the principles of surgery ?—They are supposed to be purely clinical; but I feel certain he would try to give lectures on the principles as well, because I was appointed to that post about a year or eighteen months ago, and I found it impossible to give purely clinical lectures unless the students knew something of the principles of surgery, and therefore I determined to conjoin the two. I presume Dr. Brown does the same. 7431. Does not clinical surgery generally succeed a course of principles ?—Yes. 7432. Does it fall fairly between the first and second years ? —I think it is a mistake to give clinical lectures when the student is not prepared by a course of principles. 7433. Then, if the present intention of the school is to supply the first two years of medical tuition, this course of clinical surgery would not form part of it ?—No. 7434. Then the only tuition given of a purely medical character is anatomy ? —Yes ; and those casual lectures or remarks that the student picks up, from the members of the staff, in going round the Hospital. 7435. AVould any clinical medicine at all fall within the first two years of the student's course?— No; it would be in the student's fourth year. 7436. You said you thought it premature to establish a medical school. Can you give us any reasons to put on record? —The chief reason always appeared to me to be that, owing tothe healthiness of the climate aud freedom from accidents, there is not a sufficiently large field in the hospitals for the students to learn. I speak from good experience of the Hospital here. The cases are, as a rule, of a paltry character. There are few cases of severe disease, and there are very few uncommon surgical cases, owing to the absence of docks and large works. AVithin the last eighteen months there have been very few capital operations indeed. My great objection to the foundation of a medical school is, that at present, owing to the healthiness of the climate and the absence of large public works, there is not a class of medicine and surgery from which the students can be taught. 7437. The opportunities for instruction are quite insufficient ?—Yes. 7438. And a class of medical students would be produced who would be deficient in experience?— Yes—ill-taught men. 7439. AVould that apply to other parts of the colony as well as Dunedin? —Not to my knowledge; but I presume that, as Dunedin has the largest hospital, it would apply with greater force to other parts of the colony. 7440. Bey. W. J. Habens.] AVhat is the number of beds in Dunedin Hospital ?—There are 150 beds ; but at present I think tbere are only 90 or 100 occupied. The average is about 100; and of those I should fancy, speaking from my own knowledge, that perhaps 70 are common, ordinary cases —cases that a well-educated medical man might often have to treat. 7441. Professor Cook.] AVhat is the number of beds required in a provincial hospital, in England or Scotland, before it can obtain recognition ? —I think it is 120 beds. 71 -42. Then the Dunedin Hospital is larger than what is required ?—Yes. 7443. The Chairman.] Do your remarks, with regard to matters not being ripe for establishing a medical school, apply to the scheme which I understand is in operation in Dunedin—viz., two years' course to be obtained in the colony, and two years at Home ?—Yes ; it applies to the tw*o-years course as well as the whole course. 7444. Professor Cook.] AVhat are the subjects usually taught in a two-years course ?—Anatomy, physiology, chemistry, botany, natural history, and materia niedica. Zoology, I think, should be taught, but it is not an absolutely necessary subject. 7445. AVhieh of those subjects depends on the size of the hospital—which of those subjects could not be taught in consequence of the smallness of the hospital ? —Not one of the subjects. All of them could be taught independently of a hospital. 7446. Then surely a two-years course might just as well be given here ?—I think if a young man has to learn medicine, he should be put at once into a well-equipped first-class school, because it is a fact, that first, and second year students even, go into the hospital and pick up a little knowledge before they are actually obliged or expected to do so. 7447. But is there not a corresponding drawback in a large school ? I refer to the teaching of anatomy. Do you not think that anatomy can be better taught in a small school than in a large school ? For example, could not anatomy be taught better here, where there are only five students, than in Edinburgh, where there might bo 500 or 000 students ? —I do not think so. In my own case, I went to study in Dublin, for the simple reason that it was the best anatomical school iv Great Britain. There, the number of students was very large, but the bodies or subjects were very numerous. One professor of anatomy did not teach the whole body of students. He delegated his office to a number of dissectors and demonstrators, and the students were thoroughly well taught. It is a matter of common sense that one professor can teach five students uncommonly well; but it does not follow that anatomy could bo taught by him better than in a large school. 7448. As a matter of fact, is there not usually a dearth of subjects in large schools ? —Yes. In London that is the case, but in Dublin it was not so. In Dublin, there used to be fifty bodies in the dissecting-room. In London, it was very difficult to get subjects. 7449. Dr. Hector.] Have you never heard the remark that when subjects are plentiful the anatomyis scant —that is, the students do not dissect with the same care as when subjects are scarce ?—No. I know that there is a great deal of waste ; but, in Dublin, I think there was very careful dissection. There was this advantage, that, instead of the students dissecting a body when putrid and green, as is the case in a scantily-supplied school, they could always get a fresh subject and dissect it all through.

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7450. Tiie Chairman.] Do you think that the present staff, of a professor and lecturer, is sufficient for conducting a two-years course in Dunedin ? —Yes ; with the exception of physiology and botany, which are not taught. Anatomy and chemistry are well taught. 7451. Professor Ulrich.] Do you consider physiology one of the most important subjects ? —Yes; quite as important as anatomy. 7452. Professor Brown.] How do you propose to supply the want of medical men in the colony, if you think that it is still premature to establish even an incipient medical school ? —I think it can be well supplied altogether from Home. 7453. Do you think that scholarships to the Home medical schools from here would do any good? Do you think that students sent Home on scholarships would come back, unless tbere was some condition attached to holding the scholarships ? —Yes; I think they would bo likely to come back. 7454. Dr. Hector.] Do you think it would be a good thing to have medical scholarships, such as the following one, which is offered in the New Zealand University Calendar, 1879, page 60:—-"(1) There shall be a medical scholarship of the value of £100 per annum, and tenable for three years ; (2) competition for the medical scholarship shall take place at the senior scholarship examination, and shall be decided by excellence in the papers on anatomy, physiology, zoology, botany, and chemistry; (3) the medical scholarship shall be open to matriculated students of the University of New Zealand of not less than two years' standing, who, in at least three of the subjects of examination, have attended classes recognized by one of the Universities of Great Britain granting medical degrees ; (4) the medical scholarship shall be held on condition that the holder gives satisfactory proof to the Chancellor that he is taking the necessary steps towards the obtaining of his medical degree " ?—Yes ; I approve of that arrangement. 7455. Hon. W. Gisborne.] AVith a view to establishing at some time or other a complete medical school in New Zealand, is it not an advantage to have what has been called an incipient medical school, which would give two years' education in subjects which you yourself admit can be taught independently of the size of the hospitals in the colony ?—I do not think it on the whole. I think there is something in a name, and that a man educated entirely at Home would have a better status than one partially educated here, and it would handicap him a little. I think if a* young man intends to go into the medical profession, he should take the entire course at Home. 7450. Professor Brown.] You think this scholarship should be given at the beginning of the medical course, instead of at the end of a two-years course ? —Yes. 7457. Professor Cook] I presume it would be given as a result of examination in general knowledge ? —Yes ; to high-class students who determine to choose medicine. 7458. On condition that he pursues his medical studies at a recognized school in Europe ?—Yes. 7459. Dr. Hector.] AVhat is your opinion of the value of medical degrees granted in Melbourne ? —I do not think very much of them. 7400. AVould the objections which you urge against a medical school in New Zealand apply to the Melbourne Medical School?— Yes. 7401. Do you know the size of the Melbourne Hospital ?—Six hundred beds. 7462. You could not object to the size of that hospital ?—Certainly not. 7463. On what ground, then, do you object to the Melbourne Medical School ? —I think the teaching machinery at Home is so much more perfect than in the colonies. Nearly all those who teach in Melbourne are engaged in every-day practice, so that they have not time to prepare a well-digested course of lectures. 7464. Professor Ulrich.] Do you know that there are eight or nine lecturers in Melbourne besides Professor Halford? —Yes. 7465. Professor Cook.] You say tbat it would be to the interest of young men to go Home, because otherwise they would be handicapped in starting the practice of their profession ?—I have often conversed with intelligent people on this point, and they have uniformly said that they would prefer a man whose education they knew to have been completed in Great Britain. 7-406. Do you know what has been the experience in Melbourne on that subject ? Have their medical graduates got into good practice or not ?—Dr. Moloney is in very good practice. Still, I should view such cases as exceptions, and not as the rule. I can fancy a young man who, by great ability, or force of character, or the aid of adventitious circumstances, might get into good practice even if educated, say, in New Zealand. 7467. Dr. Hector.] AVould you send a youth Home to get his education, rather than to a colonial University ? —1 would not think twice of sending a young man Home at once. 7468. Professor Brown.] Do you think we can get as good a supply of medical men from Home as from a complete medical school specially set apart in New Zealand for the training of young men ?—I think so. 7469. Do you think it would be a waste of money to establish a medical school in New Zealand ? —I think so. 7470. Dr. Hector.] AVhat do you think are fair fees to charge students for hospital attendance ? —I think the fees decided upon the other day, of ten guineas for the first year and five guineas for the secoHd year, are fair. Ido not think they are excessive, especially iv a place like New Zealand, where young men who go into the medical profession are probably wealthier, or their friends are wealthier, than they might be at Home. 7471. Even although it is too advanced work for them ? You have already stated, have you not, that what they learn at the hospital is entirely apart from the first two years' course ?—lt is not suited for the students. It is not worth ten guineas to a student at that stage of his studies. 7472. The Chairman.] For whose benefit is this fee exacted? —It is for the establishment of a pathological museum. No penny of this money goes into the pockets of the teachers. It goes to found a pathological museum. 7473. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think it will stand in the way of students entering the Medical School ? —No ; they w-ould consider the cost beforehand, and it is a small cost, after all. They would attend three times a week. 47— H. 1.

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7474. Dr. Hector.] Is there any machinery, connected with the Otago College or otherwise, for teaching materia medico or pharmacy ?—Students may go to the dispensary at the back of the hospital, but tbere is no real machinery. 7475. Who teaches tbere? —Dr. Brown. Still, ho would not teach materia medico. The students would on]y pick up such know-ledge as they might get in the smallest druggist's shop. 7-170. I wanted to know what machinery there is for teaching druggists' assistants ? —None whatever, I believe. 7477. Are there many people engaged iv the sale of drugs ?—Yes. 7478. Do you consider that the dispensing of drugs requires a certain amount of knowledge?— Yes ; but I think the. knowledge is easily acquired. 7479. Do you thiuk that that knowledge is acquired at present, or are persons put into druggists' shops without knowledge,.*to dispense drugs at the risk of the people ?—I am sure of that. 7450. Do you know of any accidents having occurred through such a state of things ? —Yes. I cannot recollect one at this moment; but I know* that many have occurred. 7481. Do you think that some provision should be made for instructing persons who go into business as druggists, and that some legal enactment should be passed for granting a certificate of efficiency ? —Yes ; I think so. 7482. I believe that in Great Britain there is such a certificate granted; and do you think it advisable that in this colony such a thing should exist.—Yes. 7483. The Chairman.] AVould an unlicensed or uncertificated person be allowed at Home to dispense drugs ? —I think it is not necessary for a druggist to be a member of the Pharmaceutical Society. 7484. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that persons dispensing drugs in New* Zealand ought to be required to show some certificate of knowledge?— Yes ;it is knowledge easily gained, but they do not gain it. 7485. Bey. W. J. Habens.] "Which do you think most important—a character for scrupulous care and attention to business, or a knowledge of drugs and their properties ? —Thc two are, together, most important. 7486. AVhich of the two is most important ? —AVell, a man of excellent character is the best. He would soon learn. 7487. The Chairman.] AVhat term is synonymous in this colony with the term " apothecary," as used in Dublin ?—There is no corresponding term. The nearest approach would be a medical man who dispensed his own medicines ; because the definition of "apothecary" is, one who dispenses medicine and is entitled to practise ; and that definition applies also to a medical man who dispenses his own medicines. But there is a great difference between the two. 7458. Was there a want felt amongst the youth of Dunedin, or their parents, for the establishment of a medical school, in order that youths might obtain a medical education in Dunedin ?—No ; and I speak from conversation and knowledge. Ido not think a want was felt. 7489. Are you aware whether any young persons had to go Home, in order to obtain the education tbey could not obtain in the colony? —Yes. 7490. Is it customary at Home to exact a fee for hospital attendance ? —Yes. 7491. Professor Ulrich.] You seem to think that, in its present condition, New Zealand is not ripe for a medical school. Have yon an idea in your mind as to when a country like this should attempt such a thing ? Could any country progress if it never made a beginning ? —I believe that, in time, it would be the proper thing to have a medical school. I hope, in my time, to have to change my opinion ; but I have a conviction that tho time has not yet come. Ido not take a prejudiced view. 7492. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Do you not think that we should make every preparation, so that when the suitable fime comes we should have a thoroughly efficient medical school iv the colony ? — Yes ; I think so. By that, I mean we should give a good arts education, and make it of a very high class. 7493. Do you fully recognize the evil that results from the necessity of parents having to send their children Home ? Is it not a fact that a great many parents of small means are not able to do it, and that other parents, who send their children Home, expose them to great moral risk in the majority of cases ? —I do not think so. 7494. AVould not the youth be away from parental supervision and control ?—That would occur if he went Home at the end of a second year. 7495. But would he not then be away for less time, and would ho not be older ?—Yes. 7496. The Chairman.] Is there any system of apprenticeship by which a young druggist learns his profession in Dunedin ? —I have no idea. Mr. Millee Coughteey, M.8., CM., was sworn and examined. 7497. The Chairman. —I think you at ono time held a position in connection with the University of Otago?—Yes ; I was Professor of Anatomy and Physiology. 7498. For how- long ?—From August, 1874, till the end of December, 1870. 7499. AVould you inform the Commission how you received that appointment ?—I received it by sending in my application to the agents ai; Home, and those applications were sent out from Home. My testimonials were considered with those of other candidates, and I was selected from tbe list. I was in the Province of Auckland at the time I applied. I had only just arrived there from Home. 7499 a. Did they advertise at Home for a Professor of Anatomy ?—Yes. My application went in with those that came from Home, and I was selected. 7500. From your knowledge of Dunedin now, do you think the City of Dunedin was then ripe for the establishment of a medical school such as was established ?—I thiuk it was ripe for the initiation of a medical school. To say that it was ripe for a fully-matured medical school would bo an error. 7501. The Commission understand that the proposal was merely for a medical school giving a twoyears course of tuitiou. Do you think Dunedin was so far ripe for tho school?— That was not the original proposal, not only of the University Council, but of those who agitated the question in the

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Provincial Council. The original proposal was to found a complete medical school. I refer the Commission to the Report and Evidence of Select Committee, Otago Provincial Government Proceedings, 30th May, 1872. Theu thoy were compelled by circumstances to fall back upon attempting to give only what was sufficient to keep up two years' curriculum at Home. If the question were put to mo in this shape: AVas Dunedin and the Province of Otago ripe for the formation of a medical school sufficient to give two years' curriculum ? I would answer : Yes, most decidedly. 7502' What number of students had you during your tenure of office ? —I had only one roal medical student. The others wero merely gentlemen who studied for tho sake of pursuing science. They were not pursuing medical science with a view to a technical education. 7503. Did this student complete his two-years medical course? —No. 7504. Did he abandon the idea of entering the medical profession?—He could not complete his two-years course here, because the University of Otago had not founded sufficient classes to enablo students to complete two anni medici. 7505. Are you acquainted with the arrangement which exists between the University of Otago and the University of Edinburgh, with regard to giving a partial education?— Yes. 7500. Was it in existence when you were appointed ?—No. Practically it only came into existence about midsummer, 1870. The nature of it is as follows : —There is no general recognition between the senatus academicus of the Edinburgh University and the classes of the Otago University ; but there is a special recognition of the lecturers who may be appointed by the Otago University. For example, there is a special recognition of the anatomy lectures, of the chemistry lectures, and of the lectures on zoology, by Captain Hutton. That is tho full extent of the recognition obtaining between the University of Edinburgh and the University of Otago. 7507. Do I understand that the University of Edinburgh recognizes those branches of study?— It recognizes rather the occupants of those chairs than the University itself. 7508. The University of Edinburgh is aware wbo hold the chairs; and they are recognized ?— Yes. 7509. Do you think that tho present staff of professors and lecturers in the Otago University is sufficient for giving a two-years course of study ?—No. 7510. AVhero is tho deficiency? —It should be remembered that, to meet the requirements of a two-years medical curriculum, you have not only to deal with the bare fulfilment of a certain series of attendance upon lectures, but you have, further, to place your students, who may be educated in the colony, upon a par with students who have been studying for the same length of time at Home. Tbat is one point you have especially to consider, in educating medical students m the colony with a view to their passing on ultimately to examination for a degree at Home. Now, in the University of Otago a great mistake has been made, and i; was pointed out to them at the very earliest moment. They have never prepared their students so as to enable them, immediately they get Home, to pass a certain examination which then presents itself, aud which prevents them from proceeding any further until that obstacle is overcome. There are lectures on botany required. These are compulsory, and preliminary to the study of medicine. It is considered by all medical teachers of the present day, that this class should be made preliminary to the study of medicine. A regulation exists, that after a certain time students shall pass this first examination, called variously, according to the corporation you have to deal with, and it consists of botany, zoology, and chemistry. Now, if a student be not prepared for this examination, he is simply thrown back, after his arrival at Homo, for a longer period of time than students who have been educated at Home, and is thus placed at a serious disadvantage as compared with them. 7511. Does not this attendance in Dunedin relieve students from any examination at Home?— Not the slightest. I bold very strongly that tho attendance for two years in Dunedin, as at present constituted, is simply a delusion to the student. 7512. Professor Cook.] Would it not relieve the students from attendance on certain classes, such as zoology and anatomy?— Theoretically it does, but practically it does not. AVhen you have to deal with a body of students who are being educated for their profession, you find that they require to work gradually at their different classes, and at the same time return afterwards to some classes, such as anatom}', for their examinations. Now, unfortunately, the education that goes on in the Universities at Home is conducted more with a view to meeting the requirements of examinations, in many cases, than to the acquirement of sound knowledge; and tho examination that faces a student when he arrives at Home, after two years' study in Dunedin, consists of what is known, in the Edinburgh University, as the " first professional " —iv the London University, as the " first scientific " examination— and otherwise in Oxford and Cambridge. This examination can be taken at Home, by diligent students, at the end of their second summer session, if they commenced with tho summer session ; but, if they began to attend classes for the first time with a winter session, then they cannot appear for it until the end of their second winter session, and frequently tbey defer it to the end of their following summer session. Now students can obtain from the Otago University recognized lectures in anatomy, chemistry, and zoology. But, of these classes, anatomy belongs more to the study of technical medicine, than to the preliminary scientific training that every student must undergo according to the approved system of teaching. The consequence is that, after a boy has gone Home, ho will find facing him his first scientific examination, aud this examination is no light matter. The boy requires a sound training in botany —a much sounder training than can be acquired in two or three months. He also requires a very sound training in zoology. He also possibly requires a little further refurbishing of his memory with regard to chemistry; so that, practically, it will be found —and has been found in the case of the solitary student who went Home—that, instead of gaining two years by being connected with the University here, he will have to spend five or six years at Home, as compared with four years if he had commenced Ins studies at Home. 7513. Professor Cook.] I cannot understand how he would be worse off than if he had done nothing here ?—Oh, no ; Ido not mean that. I mean that the total period of education required of a boy conjointly educated by tbe Otago and Edinburgh Universities, is moro than likely to be five to six years, as compared with that of a lad who studied first at Home. My experience as a public teacher in

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. Edinburgh University and in the Liverpool Royal Infirmary School of Medicine, and also as a tutor having extensive classes in both places, grafted this fact strongly on my mind: that, for the Edinburgh University degrees, e.g., while students educated in Edinburgh entirely could, with ordinary diligence and intelligence, get through their examinations at the earliest opportunity permitted them by the regulations, and be finished w*ith them in four years, students educated elsewhere—in London, Liverpool, Manchester, Melbourne, and other places—for their first two anni medici, and then completing their education at Edinburgh, were invariably later in attacking the various examinations, and consequently iv passing them, aud that their medical collegiate study was extended to five years and over. 7514. Have no medical students been able to pass this first professional examination when they went Home ? —I am not aware whether Mr. Lowe passed it or not. lam not certain. 7515. Supposing a botany lecturer were appointed hero, would that complete the course which is necessary to obtain recognition at Home ? —lt would certainly complete the course to enable students to be in the same position as students of the same period at Home, as regards this scientific examination —it would meet that deficiency ; but it would not make the students' two-years course as complete as, in my opinion, it ought to be. It would enable the New Zealand student to take the same standing in regard to this examination as students at Home, if ho had been a diligent lad ; but it would not make the course what it should be. 7510. Dr. Hector.] What further subjects would you consider necessary to be taught, in addition to botany, beyond those now taught ? —The classes which I would have, for the sake of filling up the lad's time during the two years here, should enable him to devote a larger amount of time to more technical and important subjects during the remaining years of his medical education. The first I would have would be dispensary practice —practice in connection with learning materia medica, and practical pharmacy: materia medica as taught now —namely, a knowledge of the character of drugs, their different properties, and the tests applied. I may mention, too, that that class —as has been pointed out over and over again to the Otago University Couucil—could easily have been accomplished in connection with the two-years curriculum, without involving any expense. 7517. Are there any other subjects ? —That is one of the chief subjects. I have a list of my views, which I shall present to the Commission. I finished it as an answer to questions put by the Otago University Council, but they did not do me the justice to publish it as I gave it to them. They only gave a coloured version of it. 7515. AVould you not include physiology?—l should like physiology to come in in tho second year, but in what I advise I am bearing in mind the funds of the University. 7519. Professor Cook.] AVould it be necessary or not to teach physiology here during the second year, in order to place students on an equal footing with their fellow-students at Home ?—No ; it would not be necessary, as far as the examinations are concerned. 7520. Dr. Hector.] Is not physiology a subject for a two-years student ?—lt is; but it is not included in the second year's examination. It is included in the third year's examination. There are now three examinations. The first examination is more or less a scientific examination iv botany, zoology, and chemistry. It ought to be regarded as altogether preliminary to the study of medicine, aud, indeed, has been placed in that position by the conjoint Medical Board, formed by the chief medical associations at Home in their recent attempt at amalgamation. 7521. Professor Cook.] Do you think that an important subject like physiology could be got up wholly during the student's first three years?— No. 7522. Then would you have the subject taught in the second year?— Yes, if the University funds will permit of it. 7523. How would you propose to manage ? —AVheu the New Zealand student would be in the position I have told you, it would mean extremely hard work in the third year for him to get over the classes, and to absorb the requisite amount of knowledge to pass the examination facing him at the end of tho third year, unless he had been well trained in this subject. 7524. Dr. Hector.] Do they not still take physiology in the second year at Home ?—Yes; the practice at Home is, undoubtedly, to take systematic physiology in the second winter. 7525. Is that found to overwork them ?—No ; if commenced in the summer session. 7520. Professor Cook.] I suppose you contemplate that an important subject like physiology would need a professor specially for it ? —Yes. I will make it clear by reading from a letter which I sent to a committee of the University Council in reply to questions put by them to me. The letter is dated 30th March, 1876. The first question was, " What staff is necessary to complete a medical school?" My answer was, "The staff requisite for a complete medical school which would bo in accordance with tho opinions of the medical educationists of the da}*, and of sufficient extent to be recognized by the Home authorities, is: 1. Professor of anatomy, descriptive and surgical, including practical anatomy. 2. Professor of chemistry, systematic and practical. 3. Professor of general anatomy and physiology, including experimental physiology. 4. Professor of general pathology and pathological anatomy. The above four professors should be trained specialists, and not general medical practitioners. 5. Clinical teachers of medicine and surgery, who should also be visiting medical officers to the hospital. (Dunedin Hospital has an average of 170 in-patients weekly, and would require at least four visiting medical officers : that would be in the proportion of about forty in-patients to one officer, the proportion obtaining elsewhere being about twenty-five to one— very rarely thirty-five to one.) 6. Lecturer on the principles and practice of surgery, who should also give a course on operative surgery. 7. Lecturer on the principles and practice of medicine, who should also give an elementary course on medical diagnosis. 8. Lecturer on materia medica, general therapeutics, and medical botany. 9. Tutor in practical pharmacy, who should also be dispenser to the hospital. 10. Lecturer on forensic medicine (medical jurisprudence) and general hygiene, six months' course. 11. Lecturer on principles and practice of midwifery and diseases of women and children. 12. Lecturer on morphological and physiological botany. 13. Lecturer on zoology and comparative anatomy. 14. Tutor in the principles and practice of vaccination, who should also hold some public appoiutment as Government vaccinator. And, as accessory lecturers, I would recommend tbe following, as soon as means will permit: (a.) Lecturer on ophthalmic diseases and ophthalmic surgery, {b.) Lecturer on

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mental pathology and diseases, who should be some competent medical man in charge of an asylum. The following are the things I have, at various times, recommended the Council to do to obtain two recognizable anni medici; but the Council has not followed my advice: 1. Hospital practice aud clinical teaching. 2. Appointment of a lecturer on botany. 3. Appointment of a lecturer to deliver fifty lectures at least in zoology pure. 4. Utilization of Dunedin Hospital for hospital classes and clinical teachiug, and also of hospital dispensary for practical pharmacy. 5. Utilization of botanical gardens. [Vide my letters to the Council dated 21st August, 1874; 27th August, 1874; 19th June, 1875; and my report, 19th June, 1875.] The committee [this referred to the committee of the Council] will find, in appendices 8,, O, D., E., and F., of my fetter to the Council, dated 21st August, 1874, that I then furnished to the Council all the data necessary for estimating the requirements of a complete medical school, or, of two recognizable anni medici." Then, in reply to the committee's question a3 to the " probable cost of the medical school," my reply was, " I cannot give a general reply to this question, but I could give the Committee much information on this point, that would enable them to form an approximate estimate. This I should prefer to do in the form of a written statement, accompanied by oral explanations." Now, that Committee, notwithstanding that I was a member of the University teaching staff, never had the courtesy to ask me to give the information, which was most important in connection with founding the medical school, or in enabling them to come to a conclusion as to the cost. 7527. Dr. Hector.] Did you at that time make an estimate of what it would cost to carry out the scheme you have sketched ? —[ made an estimate at the time, and I found practically that, if matters were worked amicably with medical men in Dunedin, and with the introduction of a few professional experts in.the departments of pathology and physiology, in from six to eight years the funds of the University would have permitted it, if economically used: that is to say, also allowing for the progress of other departments of the University. 7528. Professor Brown.] How did you arrive at that conclusion ? —From knowing what the funds of the University were at that time, and were likely to be, and what were the supposed requirements of other departments of the University. Taking all these matters into consideration, I came to the conclusion that we might have a sound mature medical school here in from six to eight years from the date of this letter. I cannot now find the data upou which I formed that conclusion. 7529. The Chairman] Did you retire from your position as professor owing to differences with the University Council ? —I did, most decidedly. 7530. Were you allowed private practice when you held the office of Professor of Anatomy ? —I was not allowed private practice. I had no written engagement, only a formal notification that I was appointed to the chair; and the only condition, in regard to private practice, was stated in the advertisement which caused me to apply. In this advertisement it was stated that " Private practice will not be permitted." On making inquiries as to the meaning of "private practice," as used in the advertisement, I was told distinctly that it did not include what I call consultation practice pure —that is, attendance upon any cases of sickness, always through the intervention of, or with, another medical man. I had a witness in the shape of the then Chancellor of the University, the late Sir John Richardson, and I had also witnesses as to the meaning attached by several members of the Council to the words " private practice "at the time I was appointed to the chair. Then a difference arose, owing to the firm stand I felt bound to take between some members of the University Council and myself, in regard to certain hospital appointments, and pressure was brought to bear to try and prevent me from being called in consultation with other medical men. However, I looked upon that as an entirely minor matter. AVhat a man would make in private practice would be a mere bagatelle, aud consultation practice pure would be merely for tbo pleasure of the thing. My reasons for leaving the University were otherwise. As I have publicly stated, I did not regard the University as properly administered. I did not regard the treatment of some of the professors as fair, aud I did not see much hope of matters being ameliorated. Those were my chief reasons. 7531. Was your time so fully engrossed with your professional duties as not to admit of your undertaking private practice ? —lt was not so fully engrossed. Certainly I had not anything like the number of students there are at Home, and men occupying such positions at Home can undertake private practice. Professor Halford, in Melbourne, is allowed consultation practice ; but he told me himself that, as regards emolument, he might as well bo without it. 7532. You seem to express an opinion that the affairs of the University are not well administered. Would you like to make any remarks to show tho want of proper administration?—l have several important data. It is not merely a question of my opinion, but it is an opinion founded upon data. In the first place, when the Chair of Anatomy was founded, I was naturally anxious, having connected myself with the institution, that it should progress at a fair and moderate rate of growth. I left word with tho University Council, when I went Home, that one of the most important things to be attended to, to make my services of value to them in obtaining recognition in the Home institutions, aud other support there, would be to have the matriculation examination and the general examination so modified that it should meet the requirements of the General Medical Council at Home. I can show you copies of letters in which I pointed this out twice to the University Council in a clear manner. Further, when a committee was appointed, consisting of Drs. Burns and Hulme, they were distinctly requested, in writing, to attend particularly to this matter, and to aid the University Council and its committee. AVith the assistance of the Professorial Board —to whom, I may say, they never relegated the matter —I drew up a tabular statement of the requirements of the different examinations in this and in all the various Home corporations, and I placed them in parallel lines, so that they might see clearly to what status the examination should be raised. To my great surprise, tbis matter was utterly neglected the whole time I was at Home. Of course I could not go to the Home corporations and ask them to recognize us, as long as the clear basis of all recognition was wanting. If I bad presented the matriculation examination theu in force in tho Otago University at that time, tbe Home corporations would simply have laughed at me. 7533. Am I to understand that you paid a visit Home while holding office ? —Yes.

Mr. M. CougMrey,

June 25, 1879,

H.—l

374

7534. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Had the University Council decided to make use of your services at Home ? —Yes. 7535. Aud they neglected to supply data ? —Yes ; they neglected to take the very steps here for the completion of which I w*as to work. There is another matter, viz., in reference to the carrying-out of the Anatomy Act. In the study of anatomy we require to prosecute it in a legal manner, in order to obtain bodies; aud, unless you have some legal machinery, you may get into warm water with the populace. I drew up a schedule showing the requirements of the preseut Anatomy Act at Home, and I pointed out some variations which I would like to have made iv the Home Act. before it was applied to tho colony ; and I wished that that should be carried out before I came back, or that steps should bo taken with that view. AVhen I came back I found that not the slightest steps had been taken with regard to it, aud it was only after pressure on the University Council that I got it carried through. Then it was chiefly through the assistance of two members of the Council —the Hon. Dr. Menzies, and the late Sir John Richardson —that I got it passed. And if I were asked for another datum clearly showing the action of the Council with regard to the progress of education, I might mention that the Professorial Board gave a clear intimation to the University Council that it would bo unwise to expend all their money in bricks and mortar, and to have a huge building with little teaching material or appliances. This was clearly stated by a body of men competent to express an opinion, and was not the statement of oue prejudiced individual. The Commission have only to examine for themselves the University library, and they will see what number of books have been received since 1876. They can also see the small amount of teaching appliances that have been gathered together since 1876. In other words, all the money has been spent in building a large edifice, but nothing has beeii bought to fill it and to make it practically useful to the community. 7536. Wero you a member of the Professorial Board when this protest against expenditure on the new building was lodged? —I was. 7537. Dr. Hector.] AVas there any reason why that money had to be expended iv building ?—There was no reason, so far as I knew*. 7538. AVas thero any provision that all the money obtained by the sale of the old University building should be applied to the building of a new place, and that no part of it should be applied to any other purpose ? —No ; I can go farther, and say that there was no clause prohibiting that. 7539. Hon. W. Gisborne] Is the library accessible to the public ?—Yes. 7540. How is it arranged?—l cannot say how it is arrauged now. I was one of the members of the Library Committee, but since then the books havo been removed. Before that, the books were tolerably well arranged, considering the circumstances of the building; but the books are sadly deficient. I will take, as one example, the journal of the Anthropological Society. That has not been kept up to date. The Quarterly Journal of Science, as far as I remember, was not kept up to date, and was ver}* far bohind. Most of the books you would expect to find in the scientific library of any academical institution were not to bo had Many serial works that wero commenced have not been continued. 7541. Professor Ulrich.] Have you ever heard of the University Council resolving to spend a certain sum of money per aunutn —£200—for the purchase of books ?—That was a very long time ago, and a large amount of money, to the amount of nearly £1,000, I think, was obtained by public subscription. There is also this defect: 1 hold that every occupant of a chair, especially in the department of science, should have placed at his disposal the means of enabling him to do original work. Now, you may havo the bricks, but if you have no mortar iv which to set them, in the shape of books of reference, it is impossible for any scientific man to carry on original research, in that satisfactory manner which is requisite. The pursuing of original research is of double value. It is of value to the teacher, and also to the institution with which that teacher is connected. Now, if such research cannot be carried on, it is a serious disadvantage —a disadvantage to any teacher who aspires to a higher position than the ono he holds, and a disadvantage as well to the institution with which he is for the time connected. Further, it is a disadvantage to the students who are being trained under a teacher who cannot carry on what is essential to good teaching. 7542. Dr. Hector.] You mean that in a library constant additions aro necessary for original research ? —Yes. 7543. You consider that a good library of reference is valuable in connection with a University, and of uso to the students ? —Yes ; most decidedly. I consider it essential. 7544. The Chairman.] Have you given any consideration to the mode of appointing the Univereitv Council ? —Yes. 7545. Do you think the present mode is the most desirable ? —I do not think so. In the first place, Ido not think the constitution of the University Council is the correct oae. The University Council of Otago was formed under the old Otago Ordinance, and it is composed, you may say, of nine-tenths of laity, and one-tenth of academical men. It is rather an anomalous thing that a University Council should consist of a minimum of academical men. In the second place, the mode of filling up appointments seems to me to be ruled more or less by the chief political power of the day. 1 have noticed that in one or two instances that has been tho case —at least, that has crossed my mind. Instead of the professors, or Professorial Board, and the students having a voice relatively in the management of this Council, they have none. 7540. Brofessor Brown.] Do you think it absolutely essential to the good government of the institution that the professors should have a voice in it?—l certainly think they should have a voice. 7547. Do you object to the system of nomination by the Government?—l object to it altogether. I think the professors should be allowed to elect one or two members of their own body to serve on the Council. I think one member of the University Council should be elected by the graduates, and for this reason: that under the old Otago Ordinance there was a clause which stated that after the lapse of a cer:ain period of time, when a certain number of graduates should exist, those graduates should have the power of electing a Senate, to perform many of tho duties now performed by the Council. By the abolition of provinces that is knocked on the head. 7548. Professor Cook.] AVas not that brought about by affiliation with the New Zealand University? —No; by the abolition of provinces.

Mr. M. Coughtrey.

June 25, 1879,

B_.-i.

7549. Professor Macgregor has pointed out that the thirty graduates mentioned in the Ordinance meant thirty graduates of the University of Otago, but that, since affiliation, the University of Otago had ceased to give degrees, and consequently could never fulfil the condition. —I think that, so long as tho Provincial Government of Otago was in existence, the University of Otago was in a better position for obtaining that special charter towards which it is at present taking steps. That is what I meant. I mean also that, without this charter, there is no possibility whatever at the present time of the University of Otago having thirty graduates. 7550. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Cannot this be said in favour of the University Council: that, generally speaking, in the selection of professors, it has appointed a very able teaching staff?-—AVell, opinions differ upon that point. My opinion regarding the University Council is, that it has done fairly well much of its work in that respect; but that it has gone even about that work in an extremely blind manner. I will give you an example of how the matter has in some cases been arranged. The University has, iv some cases, delegated its powers to Homo corporations. AVell, as in its efforts for recognition, I believe it has committed more or less of an error, for it seems to have confined its selection to one or two individuals connected with the Scottish corporations. Although I am a graduate of the University of Edinburgh, and love my Alma Mater very much, I certainly think it is a great error on the part of any colonial institution or University to have all its proceedings taken under the wing of one Scottish University, as I notice has been done more or less in connection with the University of Otago. Then, in some cases where communications have been sent Home from the University of Otago with reference to the question of recognition, they have passed through the hands of the local Scottish agents, and have been so mangled and murdered that, bad as they were before they went Home, they were still worse after they passed through that fire. I refer to letters applying for recognition. 7551. Dr. Hector.] In your opinion, looking to the necessities of higher education in Otago, do you think it desirable that a body constituted as you describe should get an independent charter ? — Most certainly not. 7552. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the possession of a charter would produce more activity and diligence ? —The possession of a charter means this : that, for a population of 420,000, we should have at least three or four specially chartered Universities in New Zealand, which I think would be very much to be deplored. 7553. The Chairman.] Do I understand it is your opinion that there should only be one degreegranting body in the colony ? —There might be two ; but I certainly think that four degree-granting bodies, such as are likely to flow from the special application of the University of Otago, would be a great drawback to University education in the colony. 7554. Can you mention any other instances, besides that witb regard to the new* building, in which the University Council rejected the advice of the Professorial Board in regard to University matters ? —I do not remember any other instance at the present time; but I know there were other examples with which I was conversant, and possibly if I had time I could mention them. 7555. Did they refuse the professors admission to the Council ? —They did most decidedly. My general impression, and I think it is a fair impression, is this : that the Council of the University of Otago havo always shown themselves, as far as I know, extremely jealous of the least degree of interference on the part of the professors. If the professors wanted to advise them, they had to go about it in a gingerly manner, like a lot of little schoolboys having to ask their master for a holiday. 7556. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Is the Professorial Board known to the law in any way ? —No. There is no Professorial Board legally recognized as sueh —that is to say, under the constitution of the University. 7557. Dr. Hector.] Is it self-constituted, or was it called into existence by the Council ?—I think it was adopted by the Council, as a good means of ascertaining the wishes of the professors. 7558. The Chairman.] By whom are the functions of the Professorial Board defined, as I find them in the Calendar ?—By the Council. They originated with the Board, and were agreed to by tho Council. 7559. Professor Brown.] Has the Council ever abolished the Professorial Board?— Not that I know of. The majority of the steps taken in connection with the University have been initiated by the professors. They were then adopted by the Council. 7560. So the Council has adopted many suggestions ?—AVithout doubt, they have adopted many suggestions. 7561. The Chairman.] AVere you a professor of the University when affiliation took place?—l cannot definitely say whether I was. 7562. Do you know whether it has proved beneficial to the Otago University or otherwise?—l think it has proved beneficial to the University of Otago. In the first place, it has been tho means of bringing about concerted action between the only two reputable teaching Universities so-called, as to the status of their teaching, and as to action and interference in educational matters. Then, I believe, affiliation has proved of pecuniary advantage to Otago : it got the Southland reserve of 10,000 acres, chiefly through the negotiations for affiliation. And, lastly, I think much benefit has accrued to Otago University, and to every local institution, by relieving them from the duty of examining students for degrees: indeed, affiliation put an end to that competition iv examination for degrees which before subsisted in New Zealand. The history of secondary education throughout the world points to tho fact that competition in examinations leads to a lowering of the standard, and a more facile entry for students in great numbers. The members of the Commission will see, from what I have said, that lam strongly of opinion that teaching corporations, aud those for examinations aud conferring degrees, should be kept quite distinct. 7503. Now, with regard to the appointment of the Senate of the New Zealand University. You know that the nomination is by the Governor in Council. Do you think that is a proper mode of appointing the Senate ? —No ; I think the Senate of the New Zealand University should be appointed on a more elective principle. At present, the Senate of the New* Zealand University has the same stigma attaching to it that I attach to the University Council of Otago—namely, that it is a

Mr. 31. Coughtrey. Juno 25, 1879.

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nominated body. I have often thought it would bo advisable, as has been lately done, that more of tho professors of the various institutions connected with it should be placed upon its roll. 7504. Professor Brown.] You think it is dependent on political accident? —I think that many of the appointments in the past have been dependent on political accident. 7505. The Chairman.] Is there any other matter you would like to remark upon ? —Yes ; there is one matter. AVhen I was at Home I met Dr. Carpenter, the Registrar of the London University, and he made a suggestion, in a letter to me, which may be of some importance, with regard to the affiliation of the New Zealand University to the London University, in respect to examinations belonging to tho London University to be held in this colony by the New Zealand University. Dr. Carpenter, in his letter, says, " Tho Senate [of Universit}* of London] would probably be willing, if applied to through the Colonial Office, to carry on a matriculation examination at Otago, as is done at otber colonial centres. The Senate would not be disposed, however, to carry on the preliminary scientific examination elsewhere than in London." Now* this important matter, I also complaiu,was not taken advantage of by the Council of Otago University. 7566. Are you aware whether auy of the London University examinations are conducted in this colony ? —I am not yet aware that the London University docs carry on any examination in these colonies ; but, for those New Zealand students who wish to acquire a New Zealand degree, and afterwards to proceed to another degree at Home, it might be advisable to give them the power of passing the preliminary examination in this colony. 7567. Dr. Hector.] Arc you aware of what has been done at the last two meetings of the New Zealand University Senate in connection with the Gilchrist Scholarship, and for obtaining London examiners for the degree and scholarship examinations next year ? —I was not aware of that. Mr. Geoege Cowie, General Manager of the Colonial Bank of New Zealand, was sworn and examined. 7568. The Chairman.] As General Manager of the Colonial Bank of New Zealand, did you conduct uegotiations for the purchase of the old University buildings ? —Yes. 7569. What was the sum paid?— Twenty-seven thousand pounds, I think. 7570. Can you inform the Commission what that building is now valued at by the Land-Tax Officers ?—I cannot. The land, I take it, is valued at £20,000. That is excluding improvements. The purchase was effected in May, 1877. 7571. AVhat is the whole building valued at amongst your assets?—At what wo paid for it, and what we have since added to it by way of alterations and improvements. 7572. Hon. W. Gisborne.] I understand that, when you bought it, you wrote it down as an asset at what you paid ? —Yes. It stood in our books exactly the same as the payments were made, and at this date it is the same. 7573. AVas the negotiation conducted by public tender, or by private contract ? —By private contract. 7574. Had it been advertised ?—Yes ; and it was open for sale more tban a month before we took action, and had been under offer to two or three parties at different periods —once at £0,000 or £7,000 less than we paid for it. 7575. Was it advertised at a fixed price, or were offers called for?—l cannot recollect. I was told to-day that it was offered to another party at £21,000, but that the offer was not taken. 7570. The Chairman.] Do you know if the Colonial Bank offered a larger sum than was afterwards paid ? —AVe offered £27,500 about a year before ; and we have virtually paid £27,500, because extras came in which we did not know of. Twenty-seven thousand five hundred pounds is what we actually paid, aud interest at 7 per cent. It was a very high rate of interest. We had to pay 7 per cent, on all instalments, until they came due. That was the stipulation of the University Council. I looked upon it as adding £1,500 more to the price. 7577. AVhy was not the price paid off at once ?—The L Tniversity Council would not take the mouev. They preferred to have this good investment at 7 per cent. At that time money was very flush." 7578. AVhat time elapsed before the purchase-money was paid off?—l think it ran over thirty-six months. We made an arrangement with them afterwards whereby it was shortened, because they wanted the money. But, as a matter of fact, we w*ould sooner have paid the money at the time of the purchase. We might not afterwards, when money got dear. 7579. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Who sold the property ?■ —The University Council. I made the offer. 7580. Do you remember what was the title ? —I do not remember. I thiuk it was vested in the University Council. I think the Governor in Couucil assented to it in some way or other. 7581. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Are you aware of any public manifestation of feeling that the University Council had sacrificed the property in selling to the Colonial Bauk ? —I know there were some landsharks who were vexed because they did not get the property —after wo bought it. But no one would look at it before. 7582. Hon. W. Gisborne.] Have you any idea of what the value of the building was at the time, putting aside the land ? Of what value is the building now, exclusive of the land ?—I am not a valuator of property. VSS3. Do you think the building cost a very great deal more than the difference between £20,000 worth of land and the sum of £27,000 which you paid ?—A very great deal more. 7584. How do you think there was so much difficulty iv selling at the price obtained ? —lt was like selling a white elephant. 7585. AVas it too costly ?—There was no competition for it. No one would buy it, except as a speculation. Mr. William Beown, M.8., was sworn and examined. 7556. The Chairman.] What office do you hold in connection with the Medical School ?—I am Lecturer on Surgery. It is in connection with the University of Otago.

Mr.M. Cougldrey.

June 25, 1879.

Mr.George Cowie.

June 25, 1879.

Mr. W. Brown.

June 25,1879,

377

H.—l

7587. How many students attend ?—Two. 7588. I think the" arrangement is that the first two years' instruction in the medical course is given in this school ? What subjects are included ? —Anatomy, chemistry, zoology, and surgery. 7589. What is your opinion as to New Zealand being fitted at present for establishing therein a complete medical school ?—I think it would be premature. 7590. AVhat are your reasons ? —There is no one city of sufficiently large population to afford facilities for a complete course of education; and the difficulties attending the getting of a complete staff in one town, of the size of most New Zealand towns, are such that I think it would be well to postpone the establishment of a complete medical school for some time. 7591. Do you think it a good thing to give a two-years course ? —I do not know whether even that has not been acted upon too soon. 7592. Can tho subjects which are included in the two-years course be taught as well here as in England ?—I believe so. 7593. And they are recognized at Home ?—All the teachers are recognized, with the exception of myself. I have not yet received recognition. My request for recognition was delayed because the University Court of Edinburgh desired to have fuller information about the Hospital. That information reached Home about the 14th of March or April, just one day before the meeting of the University Court; and there was no time to refer the matter to the senators. I received a reply stating that the application would be considered at the next meeting in July. I have reason to believe, from letters I have received, that recognition will follow. All the other teachers are recognized. 7594. Dr. Hector.] AVhat recognition will you receive ? —As Lecturer on Systematic Surgery. 7595. Is that the course of lectures you give at present ?—Yes. 7596. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is the course of study pursued here during the two years amply sufficient to count for two years when the student goes Home ? —Coupled with hospital attendance, it is. 7597. How many institutions in Great Britain will recognize the two years' study and attendance here as being of the same value as two years at Home ? —I cannot tell. I believe it is the custom for most of them to recognize such classes as are recognized by the University of Edinburgh. 7598. AVithout being asked for recognition, will they recognize? —I cannot state positively. I believe, however, that most examining bodies will recognize classes which are considered sufficient by the Edinburgh University. 7599. Dr. Hector.] Have any steps been taken to ascertain that definitely, because it is a most important point ?—I am not aware whether any steps have been taken. 7600. Professor Cook.] Are there not one or two subjects not given here which are required at Home ? —Botany is the only one. 7001. Professor Brown.] Is not physiology required?— That is not necessarily required in the first two years. In the course of time it will be required. 7602. Professor Cook.] Is not physiology usually required at Home during the first two years ?— Not required, but usually taken in tho second year. They begin systematic surgery at Home in the second year. I think phj-siology ought to form part of the course here. 7003. Bey. W. J. Habens.] When do the students take anatomy ? —At the beginning. 7004. Professor Cook.] In order to give a real two-years course, and in order to place the students ou the same level as those at Home, do you think that botany and physiology should also be taught?— Yes. There is no compulsory order in which classes have to be taken. It is simply a matter of custom, and convenience in attending examinations. The first examination in Edinburgh includes botany, chemistry, and zoology. Tho student may postpone that examination until the third year or fourth year. 7005. Professor Broivn.] Does the two years' study here do away with the necessity of the student passing any examinations ? —No. 7600. Dr. Hector.] If a student went Home and took botany for the first year at Home, would he be complete for the first examination ?—Yes ; if, in addition, physiology were taught here, he would be complete for the first and second examinations at Home, except for materia medica and pathology. 7007. AVould it be desirable to teach materia medica ? —Not unless you intend to have a complete course. 7008. Would not materia medica be useful in other ways ?—Yes; it is included in the second examination in Edinburgh. 7609. Professor Sale.] Is it necessary or desirable that the student should give much of his time to attendance at the hospital during his first year ? —During his first year it is not necessary. But it is well that he should become familiar with disease as early as he can manage it in his course. 7010. But would his attendance at the hospital during the first year be comparatively unprofitable, before he obtained any information in anatomy ? —AVell, there are two answers to that question. One is in the light of what medical education should be, and the other is in the light of what examining bodies require. I think there is a great deal too much expected of students by the examining bodies at Home; and seeing that the first examination includes chemistry, botany, and zoology, which form no part of medical education proper, I think it would be better for the student to attend lectures on those subjects. If those subjects were left out, and a good deal less scientific knowledge required of students, as should be tbe case, I think it would be well for the student to attend the hospital at once. We have, however, to consult what the examining bodies require; and, in that case, perhaps it is not desirable for the student to devote much time to the hospital during the first year. Otherwise, I think he should attend the hospital as early as possible. 7011. Dr. Hector.] Do you get the students in the first or second year? —In the second year. Then I give them systematic surgery, and instruction in the hospital. I endeavour to follow the Home practice as far as I can. 7612. Professor Cook.] Are you of opinion that it would be desirable to exact from medical students a high-class qualification in general knowledge—in arts, classical attainments, and so forth— 48— H. 1.

Mr. W. Broimu

June 25, 1879.

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378

before they enter upon their special studies, so as to secure that the medical men educated here should be men of culture? —I think we should have the same examinations as are required at Home for medical students. For the M.D. degree in Edinburgh what arc put iv the " Otago UniversityCalendar " as compulsory subjects are required; and three additional subjects are also required for the Edinburgh degree : one must be Greek, and another moral philosophy or logic. 7613. Professor Sale.'] Do you see any objection to the Professor of Anatomy having the right of private practice?— No. 76M. Can you state what is usual in other medical institutions? —I have been a student in two Universities —Aberdeen and Edinburgh—and iv neither of those did the professor practise medicine, because his whole time was taken up with his duties as professor. But I believe the Lecturers on Anatomy in some colleges do practise. 7G15. What is the case in other institutions ? —I believe that in some other "Institutions, such as the College of Surgeons, the Lecturer on Anatomy is at the same time a medical practitioner. 761 G. Dr. Hector.'] Do you think that, if the regulations would admit of it, and there were only a few pupils, it would be practicable for the Anatomy Professor to lecture on physiology? —I see no incompatibility. There would be no difficulty in his giving lectures on physiology, and all the physiology required could be given by him; but the regulations for graduation at Home prevent a teacher from teaching two separate subjects. 7G17. Do you know anything about the hospital fees that are charged here ? —Tes ; they propose to charge ten guineas for the first year, and five guineas for the second year. 7GIS. I understand you to say that you only teach students in the second year?—Tes; that would practically mean ten guineas for each student. 7G19. Do you think that is enough ? —I think it is too much. I think it is an excessive fee. 7620. Is it in excess of what is charged at Home ? —My only acquaintance is with the Scotch colleges, and the fee here exceeds what is charged in them. At Aberdeen it is £3 10s. for the first year, and £3 for the second ; and £6 for a perpetual ticket. In Aberdeen Hospital there are 300 beds, with an efficient staff; but that fee does not include attendance on lectures. In Edinburgh the fee for the first year is five guineas, and the same for the second year. The second payment, iv Edinburgh, entitles students to a perpetual ticket. 7G21. Would your pupils hold the position of dressers in the different wards ? —They do so here. 7622. Do you think that, in addition to the advantage gained by the students, they are of some assistance in the hospital ? —They are so few in number that Ido not think they are. If we had more, they might be of assistance. 7G23. Are not the services of the dressers very important in the Edinburgh Infirmary ?—Yes. There is one thing about the fees: the student pays £10 here, at a time when he is not in a position to derive very much benefit from hospit.il attendance. If he goes Home, to Edinburgh, he has then to pay the same hospital fees as if he had not attended here, so that the large fee does not entitle him, as it ought to do, to freedom from payment in later years, when he would derive real benefit from hospital attendance. 7024. Then it is no real advantage to a student to take hospital attendance here, so far as progress towards his degree is concerned?—lt is of advantage to him, but I think he is charged too much for it. 70:25. What do you think would be a fair fee? —Three or four guineas. The Hospital Committee have been guided to a decision by some cases quoted by two or three members of the medical staff, and in those cases they have selected schools not formed at all on the same model as this one. The proportion, of the hospital fee to the whole medical course, which they quote is more than one-half of the whole expenditure. 7626. The Chairman.] Is there a medical library attached to the University ? — Not as yet. There are some books on anatomy and general medical subjects, but there is, properly speaking, no medical library. The medical papers are not taken, to my knowledge. 7627. Do you not think it advisable that they should be taken in, for the information of the students ? —Tes, I think it is advisable. The medical paper might be sufficient. 7628. Professor Sale.] What were the cases quoted by the Hospital Committee in support of the high charge ? —Some London establishments—Bartholomew's, Guy's, and King's College, London. 7629. Will } rou explain what difference there is, in the model on which those institutions aro formed, which makes their case inapplicable to ours ?—Those schools form part of a hospital. The hospital and medical school form one institution in the case of Bartholomew's and Gary's ; and the hospital fees, in these cases, amounting to fifty or sixty guineas altogether, must, I fancy, include a good deal more than is meant by the Edinburgh Hospital fee, which is simply for admission to the infirmary. Our school is connected with the University of Otago, and not with the Hospital at all; the Hospital here, as a Government institution, being placed at the service of the University. Wo are on the model of the Scotch schools, and the plan there is for the students to pay fees to the hospital simply for the privilege of entering its gates as students. The fees to professors are different. 7630. Dr. Hector.] Probably those fees include clinical surgery?— That may be so; because, while the perpetual fee for hospital attendance is put down at sixty guineas, the whole medical course, including everything, is one hundred and five guineas. So that, if you subtract the hospital fee, you will have only forty-five guineas for the rest of the lectures. 7631. Professor Sale.] What is the whole expense of medical tuition at Edinburgh ? —The minimum expense is given in the Calendar as something over £100 —£101 or £110 —or, excluding graduation fees, somewhere about £90. 7032. Then the whole expense at Edinburgh, with the small hospital fees, amounts to something like the same as Bartholomew's with the large fees ?—Tes. 7G'i3. From that you infer that the large hospital fees are charged at Bartholomew's because the privileges of that hospital include something more ?—Tes. 7634. Dr. Hector..] Is the class of cases you get in the hospital here sufficiently varied to afford instruction ? —Tes. We get a good variety of cases, medical and surgical, One of the students attended the wards constantly during last summer. They keep records of surgical cases for me,

Mi: W. Brown.

June 25, 1879,

379

H.—l.

7635. Are they getting the benefit of attendance in the wards under a medical teacher ?—I believe one member of the staff gave this student instruction last year. I only know that from newspaper correspondence. 7636. Are the students allowed to go round the wards ?—Yes. 7637. Professor Cook.] You say the cases are varied. Do you mean that they are sufficiently varied to give a full course, or just this preliminary hospital practice?— The preliminary hospital practice. I scarcely think they are sufficiently varied for a man to acquire full knowledge. But tbere is a sufficient variety of cases to give students a grounding in surgery. 7038. Dr. Hector.] Is there as much variety as there is in a provincial hospital at Home?— Yes. 7639. Professor Sale.] Do you know if the Hospital Committee has had clearly pointed out to them the distinction you have mentioned, between the meaning of hospital fees at Bartholomew's and here ?—Yes. 7640. And, with that explanation, has the Committee finally decided to keep the fees at the original amount ?—No. I believe there is great difficulty in getting a quorum together. I believe that is the reason why they have not come to a decision. It is only when there is a burning question on hand that they can get a quorum. 7641. Dr. Hector.] Is that the Committee on which the management of the Hospital devolves ?— Yes. 7642. How, then, is the business managed ? —There is a sub-committee. 7643. Is it formed of medical men ? —No ; there is no medical man on it. 7644. The Chairman.] Do you think that the medical scholarship offered this year by the New Zealand University will be an inducement to students ?—I think so. 7645. Do you think that the conditions imposed are suitable ? —I think they are unobjectionable. 7646. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think any of your students are likely to take this ?—There are five here, but only two are in my class. 7647. Professor Brown.] AVill all those five be qualified to go in for the scholarship ?—I am not acquainted with the other three. lam only acquainted with two ; and I believe both my students will be qualified. 7648. Professor Cook.] Are you aware of any other medical school that can fulfil the conditions besides the Otago School ?—I am not aware that there is another school in New Zealand. This year, this is, virtually, a scholarship given by the New Zealand University for the benefit of the Otago University. 7649. The Chamnan.] Do you think the conditions are proper, and open to any applicants who may fulfil those conditions ?—The conditions are proper, because the condition which requires that tho subjects shall be such as are recognized by the Home examining body ensures that the student's time is not wasted. 7650. Professor Cook.] Would you prefer a scholarship of the kind given by the New Zealand University, or a scholarship given for excellence in general education, and in such subjects as botany, zoology, and chemistry, and tenable only by students proceeding to any European University with a view to qualify for the medical profession ?—I prefer it as it stands. I think it is a pity that it seems to be limited to the University of Otago. If some plan could be devised by which the benefit could be derived by other students it would bo fairer. 765.1. Would not such a scholarship as I suggest be open to the whole of New Zealand instead of a part ? —That would imply sending away the students. It might be well to have a scholarship such as you suggest in addition to the present one. Mr. E. AA 1". Alexandee, M.R.C.S., L.R.C.P., was sworn and examined. 7652. The Chairman.] Are you a medical practitioner in Dunedin ? —-Yes. 7653. How long have you been in Dunedin ?—About fourteen or fifteen years. 7654. AVhat is your opinion as to the establishment of a medical school in Dunedin or any other place in New Zealand ? Do you think the colony is in a fit position for the establishment of such a school as would produce medical practitioners who would bo recognized and qualified to practise ? Could such a school be established with benefit at the present time? —I think it is quite possible. 7055. AVhere do you think it could be established—in Dunedin? —I think somewhere in the South Island. Ido not think it should necessarily be in Dunedin. 7656. AVhat number of beds is supposed to be required for teaching in a hospital ? —I think about a hundred. That means beds contaiuiug acute cases of disease aud surgical cases. If a hospital of a hundred beds consisted half of a pauper establishment and half of acute cases, it would not be considered as containing a hundred beds in a teaching sense. 7657. How many beds in the Dunedin Hospital contain that sort of cases? —I do not know at present. 7658. Are you aware whether the Dunedin Hospital could furnish the required number of beds ? — No doubt it could, because they have the required space and number; but I do not know the exact condition of the patients. Ido not know whether they have at present those cases of long standing and incurables that they used to have. 7659. Do you think the cases here or elsewhere in New Zealand are sufficiently varied to give full instruction to students ? —Certainly they are. 7660. Arc they as much varied as in England ? —I should think decidedly as much as in some towns in Europe where there are medical schools. 7661. Are medical degrees granted in Melbourne and Sydney recognized at Plome ? —I think there is only one medical school in Australia, and that is in Melbourne. The degree is, I believe, not yet recognized by the Medical Council. 7662. Do you approve of tho present system, of giving two years' instruction in the Medical School here ? —lt seems to me a half-and-half sort of thing. The best thing is to have a single school for New Zealand. Select the place where it should be, and then teach thoroughly. My reason is, that

Mr. W. Brown,

June 25, 1879.

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practically the two-years course given here ties up a man to go to Edinburgh, and he cannot go anywhere else. 7663. If Edinburgh University recognizes the teaching here, will otber medical schools recognize it also ?—I do not know. They have not done so as yet. 7664. Be v. W. J. Habens.] You know of no rule on the part of other institutions, by which they accept whatever Edinburgh accepts?—l was thinking whether it was usual for London examining bodies to accept partial instruction in imperfectly-formed medical schools. I rather fancy not. 7665. Supposing a complete medical school were established here, what would be the position of a doctor who passed through it ? If he went to England would he be recognized there under the present regulations ? —-Not unless the examination were recognized by the Medical Council. 7666. And it is not at present? —I think not, as regards Melbourne. 7667. Dr. Hector.] Can the Medical Council recognize a partial course of study, or is its function not confined to the recognition of degrees ?—Yes ; the recognition of degrees, or diplomas already received. 7668. Can the Medical Council take into account certificates of class attendance ?—lt never does. 7669. The Chairman.] Do you contemplate that the medical school here should grant degrees if it gave an efficient course ?—I think so. I think that is the case in Canada, and that the Canadian degree is recognized in England. 7670. Dr. Hector.] Do you think that the two years spent by an intending medical student in Otago before he goes Home, would be better spent if he went Home at once, and took his whole curriculum there ?—I think so. 7671. What number of students do you think would attend a complete medical school in New Zealand ?—I suppose there would be twenty or thirty. 7072. Do you think that number would be sufficient to warrant the expense of a complete medical school? —It would be an expensive thing. 7673. Have you any idea of what the expense would be ? —No ; because it would depend so much upon whether men were paid full salaries to give their whole time to it, or, as is done elsewhere, whether they were to receive a small salary with liberty to practise. 7674. Are they not in the latter case called lecturers, as opposed to professors?— The term " professor " has reference only to a University or college. My experience is of London, where they were usually called lecturers. 7675. The Chairman.] Do you think that in New Zealand there is a sufficient number of medical men qualified to teach, who have also got leisure to teach ? —I think it possible that a fair medical school might in the course of a few years be established. 7676. Dr. Hector.] AVould the medical school you have in view be like the College of Surgeons, giving a certificate or license to practise, or have you in mind an institution for granting degrees, and forming portion of the University ?—The idea in my mind is to have a school to teach, and then I presume the University of Now Zealand would be the degree-granting body. 7677. AVould you have a degree, or the diploma of a licensing body ? —I would have a degree. 7078. Of course, as you are aware, there is a great difference, between a degree granted by a University, and the diploma of a self-associated body of medical men under a charter ? —I would not think for a moment of the body that taught granting the requisite qualification. 7679. AVhat I want to get at is this : Do you think it advisable that the teaching of medical students should be put under an association of medical men iv the colony, like the College of Surgeons ? —The teaching might be; but I fancy the circumstances are so different that the control would be better under the New Zealand University —a body already established. 7680. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that a young man who studied medicine here, obtained a degree here, and commenced practice, would stand a fair chance of getting a practice in competition with other men educated at Home ?—-I think he would, but that he would not occupy as good a position. In the public eye he would not have as good a qualification, and probably would not stand quite so well; but there is no reason why a clever man could not be taught well, supposing that the school established was a really good one. 7081. Dr. Hector.] Do you not think that medical repute depends a great deal more upon personal considerations and qualifications, than actually upon the nature of the degree a man holds ? Do the general public inquire much into the nature of a degree ?—I do not think it. 7082. Have you not found that man most successful who has a pleasant style, and of whom it is said, "He does me good" ?—Yes ; but he must have knowledge behind it. Of course it is known that some degrees at Home stand remarkably well; yet the students are not supposed to be so well taught as in some other cases. 7683. I presume it would have importance in granting appointments?— Yes. 7684. The Chairman.] Do you think that the medical scholarship, offered this year by the New Zealand University, will be useful in attracting medical students ?—lt seems to me a remarkably liberal thing. 7685. Supposing the scholarship was given for an ordinary liberal education, with chemistry, botany, and zoology, but given only on condition that the holder prosecuted his studies at some recognized school in Great Britain and Ireland ?—I do not know. I fancy scholarships of that kind have been tried elsewhere in the way you suggest, and that the result has been that many men when they went Home did not return. 7086. Professor Brown.] Would they be more likely to return with this scholarship ? —I think so, because they are in a measure connected with the place. 7687. Dr. Hector.] If the scholarship w*ere given for the complete medical course, would it not require to be given for a longer time ?—Yes; for four years. 7088. Professor Cook.] Have you taken it into account that the holder would be saved expense that he is put to here ? —1 have not given much consideration to the question. On principle I have an objection to giving scholarships to young men to go away. I fancy they have sufficient inducement in the prize of passing, and of having an opening to a profession.

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7689. But the present medical scholarship, equally with the one I propose, is open to that objection, is it not ? —Yes. 7090. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that a scholarship of that amount can be held by a young man travelling, who is not already in a position to do a great deal towards his own education ? Is that a poor man's scholarship ?—A hundred pounds a year w-ould help a man enormously. 7691. But would it not be of use only to a man who already had something of his own?— Yes. 7692. The Chairman.] Do you think it would help many comparatively poor parents to get a medical education for their children? —Yes, certainly. 7093. Be v. W. J. Habens.] Do you know what fee is fixed here for payment by medical students wishing to attend the Hospital ? —I have not heard what settlement has been arrived at. 7694. Do you think that a fee, for admission to the Hospital, of £10 for the first year and £5 for the second is at all too high? —It seems to me rather high for what they would get here. It is not high as compared with fees in London. 7095. AVhat does the student pay for in London when he pays his hospital fees ? Does he simply get tho privilege of attending the hospital ?—He gets clinical instruction with it. 7096. Dr. Hector.] Is that payment of the same nature as what is paid for clinical lectures in Scotland ?—I think so. 7697. For instance, you would pay four guineas for clinical surgery, and the same for clinical medicine ; and you would have to pay for special subjects ; so that all these would come to a great deal of money in addition to the fee for admission to the hospital ? —My impression is, that those subjects are all included in the hospital fee paid in London ; but I forget. 7698. Professor Cook.] Do you think that all clinical practice is included in the fifty or sixty guineas you pay as hospital fees in London ? —Yes, I think it is. 7699. The Chairman.] Have you any particular views to express with regard to the University Council, and the general working of the New Zealand University ? —I am strongly of opinion that there should only be one University giving degrees in New Zealand, with properly-constituted colleges in the four larger towns, Dunedin, Christchurch, AVcllington, and Auckland, provision being made for their harmonious working in their relation to the University. A faculty or school of engineering, and one of medicine, could be connected with one or other of these colleges ; but there should be only one such school in each case for the colony, and their constitution and control should be undertaken by the University. In this way they would have a more general character than if only under the management of a local college. From want of sufficient knowledge, and from the local character of the Medical School at Dunedin, a very large useless expenditure has been incurred. The school has cost at present about £0,000, with inadequate results, which might have been avoided had a matured general scheme been adopted, and the initiation of the school been deferred until it could have been successfully carried out. Of the two, I think an engineering school would command a larger measure of success than a medical school. 7700. Do you contemplate that, under the one examining body of which you speak, there should be several teaching bodies in different parts of the colony ? —Yes. I gave that opinion many years ago, when I was examined here about the formation of the University of Otago, before the New Zealand University was established. I objected then to founding the University of Otago. I considered there should be a University for New Zealand, aud colleges in the large centres of population.

Mr. Alexander,

June 25, 1879,

AVednesday, 2nd July, 1879. Peesent: Professor Shand in the chair. Professor Brown, Professor Sale, Professor Cook, Professor Shand, Rev. AY. J. llabens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich, Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Dr. Wallis. The Rev. D. M. Sttjaet, D.D., was re-examined. 7701. Professor Sliand.] The Commission understand that you are desirous of adding something to the evidence you have already given. If you would indicate the nature of the evidence you wish to offer, I would put such questions as would bring out what you desire. —I will tell the Commission what I wish to say. I have got the impression that the Commission would go away with the notion, that the University Council did not manifest anything like ability or great care, in the matter of selling the old site and erecting the new buildings. After reading over my evidence, I felt that a stranger reading it might get that impression; and, being sure, from what I knew of the operations of the Council, that extraordinary care had been taken in connection with both matters, I jotted down a few memoranda, which in justice to the Council I am anxious should be received in some shape or another. 7702. In the first place, I suppose, regarding the sale of the old building ?—Yes. 7703. Then perhaps I had better ask you if you have any further evidence to offer to the Commission regarding the sale of the old building?— From the day the Council obtained possession of the Princes Street building, the idea of utilizing a part of it for quarters for students from the country and other provinces was entertained. Many plans were suggested for the practical realization of the idea, but they were successively dismissed on the ground of the cost of the necessary alterations. The Council about the same time came to entertain the idea of houses for the professors. This led to the suggestion to sell the University building and site, and with the proceeds erect new University buildings, including houses for professors and quarters for students. The Council, through its Chancellor, the late Sir John Richardson, applied to the Superintendent, as A _sitor of the University, and the Provincial Government, ever the enlightened friend of the University, for the necessary authorization to

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July 2, 1879.

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. do so. In the correspondence the Council engaged to lay out the price on suitable buildings. The minute which placed the matter before the Provincial Government specified the suitable buildings as University buildings proper, professors' houses, and students' quarters. The necessary authority to alienate was obtained. The Colonial Government, through tho Hon. Major Atkinson, asked the Council to give them the refusal of purchase. The Committee appointed to value building and site recommended that they should be offered to tho General Government for £40,000. Though this offer was declined the negotiations continued, and site and building were again put under offer to them for £30,000, which, however, came to nothing. The Council advertised the building and site for sale, besides placing them in the hands of an agent. In course, several tenders were received. The City Council made an offer of £21,000, and an agent, on behalf of a city company, made another of £22,000. Neil and Co. requested that they might have the chance of selling them for a month, at a price. The reserve which the Council fixed was £27,000. At the end of the month Neil and Co. reported that our reserve was too high, and suggested £25,000, which the Council declined. Others tried to purchase, but the inquiries and negotiations were futile. An offer was made by the Colonial Bank, through Mr. Beal, of £27,550, with interest on deposits at 7 per cent., which was declined. Some eighteen months after, the Colonial Bank made a second offer, through Mr. Cowie, of £27,000, with interest on deposits at 8 per cent., which, after consideration, was accepted. 7704. You spoke of interest being allowed. Do you mean that' interest was allowed from the date of the purchase ? —The Council, on the suggestion of their solicitor, claimed interest from the day of sale ; but, the bank demurring, an interview took place between the Finance Committee aud the bank authorities, when a compromise was effected. 7705. Professor Cook.] In reference to the minute which you say necessitated the utilization of all the money for building purposes alone, do you think that that minute ?—I said that when the Government asked us what was to be done with the money, we replied at ouce that it was intended to be spent wholly ou building; and the buildings were the University proper, the professors' houses, and the dormitories. 7706. There is a minute to that effect ?—Yes. 7707. Do you think that spending part of the money on apparatus would not come within the object specified ? —lt might. If we had the money, Ido not know that anybody would closely look into a thing of that kind, with the exception of the auditor, who might object to pass it. 7708. Professor Shand.] On what ground ? AVas that based on any legal restriction which the Council were under? —It was based on this: we felt that there was equity in it—that as we had got the site aud buildings for a University, we were in equity bound to consecrate whatever they realized to University buildings. That was the notion of the Council. 7709. Did not the Council rather believe that any funds in their possession should be applied to the greatest advantage of the University ?—I have no doubt there were some who thought so ; but that was the substance of our letter to the Superintendent. I was oue of those who, with the late Sir John Richardson, interviewed the Superintendent in reference to this matter; the feeling was general that the proceeds from the site and old buildings would be absorbed before we got the new buildings finished and furnished. 7710. But I do not suppose the Council conceived that it was acting in the spirit of the highest wisdom, if it expended large sums of money in providing laboratories, and left itself without the means of equipping these laboratories ? —The University Council had the profoundest conviction that they would be iv funds, in ono way or another, for equipping all the classes with the necessary books and apparatus. It had been in their minds, and it had been their intention all along to do so, and they were doing it as they had means. But they had this sort of conviction, that "we must creep before we gang." 7711. Professor Cook.] In reference to the sale of the old building, your reserve was £27,000? — Yes. 7712. Was the Colonial Bank aware of this reserve in making their tender ; because it is curious that they should twice tender for almost the exact amount of your reserve ? —They might have become aware of it from Mr. Neil or other parties; but Ido not know, and really cannot answer. You must remember that the negotiations for the sale, from the commencement to their completion, occupied something like three years. 7713. From the time the building was first offered until the time when possession was delivered to the Colonial Bank? —Yes. AYe had conversations with companies and agents innumerable, and it is very possible that the figure at which we were disposed to sell may have got abroad. 7714. Professor Shand.] Are you aware whether the Council ever considered the alternative of raising money—say in England—at a low rate of interest, on the security of the building, and leasing the building instead of selling it ? —That matter was before the Council once and again ; but after very mature consideration they arrived at the unanimous opinion that the best thing was to sell the building. 7715. Professor Cook.] There was some misunderstanding about the clock, I believe. Would you explain what happened ? —Thc fact is, we were very anxious to secure the clock for the University, and in the offer we made we took particular pains that it should be reserved. But Mr. Cowie's letter was so worded that it admitted of an interpretation which included the clock in the sale, contrary to the intention of the Council. Rather, however, than have litigation on the subject and break up the contract, we agreed to a compromise. The Council, however, intended to reserve the clock, which, with tho bell, cost £500. The compromise which was ultimately secured was a fair one. 7716. Professor Shand.] Have you any supplementary evidence to offer regarding the expense of the new building?—l should like, if the Commission would allow me, to read the following as an answer:—The Council, having decided upon the accommodation required for tuition for professors and students (in fixing the requisite accommodation for tuition, tho Council received valuable assistance from the Professorial Board), and the sum to be expended on those buildings, advertised for competitive plans. Several designs were given in, and those ultimately adopted had the approval of the Professorial Board. In a letter dated 13th August, 1877, Professor McGregor, the Chairman of that Board, wrote:

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" The design marked ' To be or not to be ' the Board considers by far the most suitable, mainly for the following reasons : It is more conveniently arranged than any of the others, and gives more accommodation ;it also admits of easy extension, or diminution if the expense be found too great; and it puts the dormitories iv a separate building. The Board is unanimously of opinion that, rather than curtail the accommodation, it would be much better to erect the building entirely of brick. In the event of the Council deciding otherwise they would respectfully point out that this plan is capable of affording all the accommodation that is immediately required, even if the whole of the right wing, both of the front and back building (scientific part), be for the present omitted." The designs marked "To be or not to be," which proved to be by Mr. Bury, were adopted. It soon became evident that the £17,000 which the Council deemed sufficient for the buildings, would be inadequate. Hesitation followed. After consideration it was resolved to proceed at first only with the University proper and professors' houses. The lowest tender for the anatomical and chemical division was £5,674 ; the actual cost, £0,551. The offices in Albany Street were erected by tender for £800. The lowest tender for the main division of the University building was £13,887 ; the actual cost £17,037. The lowest tender for professors' houses (four) was £5,040 ; the actual cost, £6,553. The foundations of tho centre buildings, -which the architect estimated at £1,500, came to close on £4,000. At the outset of our operations our architect assured us that all the buildings we intended to erect could be put up for tho following sums : Anatomical and chemical division, £4,130; University building (main division), £8,200; six professors' houses, £6,864 ; and boarding establishment, £3,800. In his communication ho said: " These prices are those at which the several buildings can be erected, and at which prices the contractors referred to are prepared to carry out the works. This is data upon which tbe Council may act with confidence. The University building and chemical divisions to be substantially built of stone; the boarding establishment and professors' houses of brick, cemented on the bad-weather side." 7717. Professor Brown.] Could you tell us why these contractors of whom the architect spoke did not offer ?—They did offer. 7718. Did they offer at the prices which the architect guaranteed ?—No. The architect gave us their names, and w*e were so deeply influenced by his letter that we resolved to proceed. AYe were anxious to proceed. AYe were urged on by the Professorial Board, and very properly so. Accommodation was indispensable, especially for chemistry and anatomy. 7719. And when it was found that the architect failed to carry out his word in this respect, did not the Council hesitate ? —AVe hesitated ; but we had gone so far that, provision for anatomy being in the course of six months indispensable, we went on, hoping and believing that, although the estimate for the anatomical section was high, it might turn out, as we were assured it would, that with more time the cost of the other buildings would come nearer the estimate. 7720. The difference in the offers for contracts was put down by the architect to change in the markets ? —lt was not entirely attributed to that. He got the figures from the contractors, he said ; and he assured us in a letter that, as they were men of mark, they were prepared to go on with the work. 7721. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Did the architect ever give any explanation of the difference between his estimate of £1,500 for the foundations and the actual cost? —He simply said he was misled —-that was all. 7722. Professor Cook.] Misled in what way ?—I do not know. AVhat can you do with a man when the thing is done ? The truth is, we did not know that the foundations cost so much, until the buildings were nearly finished. The account for them was furnished to us only about a month before the completion of the entire buildings. 7723. You said just now that the architect's estimate for the foundations was £1,500 ?—Yes. 7724. Did that include foundations for the boarding department ? —No. 7725. The foundations of the part you actually built?— Yes. AYe were anxious about the foundations. I was particularly anxious, because I was opposed to the University being placed on its present site, instead of the hill south of Union Street. I questioned the architect as to these foundations, and then got an assurance from him that their cost would not exceed £1,500. 7720. AVill you explain why the building was not erected on the hill, which has been partially cut away since ? —lt was owing to a vote of the Council —a small majority —but against professional advice ; for, previous to fixing on the exact site, the Council employed the architects of the city to survey the site on the hill, and they were unanimous in recommending that the University should be erected there. They said there was abundance of room for the college building proper, and strongly recommended the site. This action was taken through Mr. Blair. 7727. Professor Broivn.] So that the University Council made one mistake, at any rate ?—Yes. 7728. Professor Shand.] After arrangements had been made for transferring the present site to the University, did not the Corporation do a great deal to destroy the hill-site?— They did. 7729. Do you know* whether the Corporation were aware at that time that it was intended to use the hill-site, or, at all events, that the idea had been thrown out that that site would be a suitable one for the new* University ?—I do not know ; but, by direction of the Council, I waited on the then Mayor, and upon the Corporation Inspector, and I also instructed the solicitors of the University to write a letter to the Corporation, intimating that we would apply to the Supreme Court for an injunction if they did not desist. They did desist; but the Inspector afterwards returned to the work of demolition. He was repeatedly asked not to touch the hill, and a ticket was put up; but in spite of everything he continued his vandalism. 7730. And in this way a site, which I suppose would have been the best site in the city for such a building as the University, was wantonly destroyed ?—Tt was not destroyed. 7731. At all events its area was very much curtailed, and it was injured to that extent that, in the opinion of the majority of the Council, it was no longer suitable for the site of the University buildings ? —I do not think that was the reason why the Council voted for the site on the flat. 7732. Can you give us the reason, then?— They preferred the flat. 7733. Professor Cook.] Did the Council ever seriously consider the desirability of putting the University buildings on tho Museum site?— No. I may say in connection with that, that when

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, Mr. George McLean was a member of the Government, he communicated with me, and, I suppose, with the Council through me, saying he thought the Museum Reserve might be procured for a University site. I said, "Do not raise the question ; for it implies the removal of the North Dunedin School (for that was in bis plan), which will bring a nest of hornets about our heads. The University, as regards site, has made so many changes, that if we enter upon another the effect will be to delay our buildings, interfere with our teaching operations, and get us into difficulties." I believe through my advocacy that proposition was abandoned. 7734. Professor Shand.] I should like to ask you the position of some funds which are held in trust by the Presbyterian Church, and which the Commission find stated, in the Calendar of the University, to be " required by law to be applied to the endowment of professorships in the faculty of arts "in the University of Otago. I presume that statement in the Calendar is made in conformity with the Act of 1866, which made a disposition of these funds ? —-Yes. 7735. I find it stated, too, that "it has lately been intimated to the University Council that the funds are now in a position to support another chair." AVhen was this intimation first made to the University Council ?—Two years ago, perhaps. It was before Captaiu Hutton's appointment as professor. Might I make a short statement in connection with these funds ? Ido not know whether the Commission are aware of the history of the matter. AVhen the Otago Settlement was established, by the terms of the agreement one-eighth part of the cost of each acre of land was set apart for the ordinances of religion and education. Two years after the settlement was established, the New Zealand Compauy went to pieces. During those two years a number of properties had been sold, which gave—or, at least, ought to have given—to the Presbyterian Church something like £4,500. They did not, however, get more than was adequate for the purchase of twenty-two properties, each property including 60J acres —a town section, a suburban section, and a rural section —and costing £120 10s. The Church was entitled to a great deal more ; but she did not succeed in getting from the Government the one-eighth of all the sections sold during the five years allowed for selling the Otago Block. The trustees of the Church invested in twenty-two sections. For a number of years the revenue from those sections was a mere trifle. 7736. AVere they town sections ? —They were town, suburban, and rural sections. Up to 1857 they only yielded an annual rental of about £37. When laud was so plentiful nobody would lease them. Even when I came here they could scarcely be leased. AVith the influx of population consequent upon the discovery of gold in the province, there was a demand for sections, and the income of the property rose rapidly. The Presbyterian Church felt that in all law and equity a portion of the estate, which was obtained purely by purchase—bought by the money of the settlers—belonged to education; but, being anti-denominationalists in education, we were extremely unwilling to start purely Presbyterian schools, partly because, as I say, we were not denominationalists, and partly because the funds were so insignificant that they would form a very small item of the cost of a school in connection with each congregation. The question then presented itself, " What shall we do with these funds ? In equity part of them belong to education." The matter was discussed in the presbyteries, and the following proportion was agreed to : viz., one-third for education, and two-thirds for the Church. Then the question arose, " AVhat is to be done with the third?" It went on accumulating. AYe applied to Parliament to be allowed to divert the trust to some slight extent, and to set apart one-third of the income for higher education. As common education was suitably provided for by the Provincial Council, and as that body had also taken grammar schools under its wing, higher education was the principal desideratum. As far as I know, the kirk sessions throughout tho whole country, and the Synod, unanimously applied to Parliament for power to utilize the one-third for literary chairs in connection with a college or University in Dunedin, which we all believed would come. That is, in my judgment, the history of the matter. 7737. Professor Cook.] Then was the Act of 1866 passed in consequence ? —Entirely in consequence of our request. 7738. What did you mean by literary chairs ? AVhat was in the mind of the Synod ?—The Synod showed the way in which it interpreted literary chairs, by establishing first of all a chair of mental and moral science. In Scotland literary chairs mean classics or philosophy. 7739. Do you think that a chair of experimental physical science would come within the definition ? —I believe it would. 7740. Professor Shand.] Any chair, in fact, that was established for the purpose of general education, apart from technical or professional education ? —Yes, I think so. 7741. You stated that intimation was made to the Couucil some two years ago, that the funds were in a position to start another chair. Was that intimation accompanied by any proposal with regard to founding a new chair ? —I think the proposition came to the University Couucil through the Church Trustees, or, as they are called now, the Presbyterian Board of Church Property, asking the Council to suggest what chair would be most suitable and most advantageous to the University. 7742. And did the Couucil make any suggestion at this time ? —Yes. The Council in the course of time made a suggestion—l forget whether it was done precisely at the time; at all events the Council intimated that a chair of English language and literature and constitutional history was very much needed, and that it would greatly benefit the common schools of the country. 7743. Was this recommendation of the Couucil accepted by the authorities of the Presbyterian Church ?—I am sorry to say it was not accepted by the majority of the Synod. 7744. AVould you tell the Commission what the Synod proposed to do ? —The presbyteries of tho Church, by a majority of, I think, three to one, suggested a chair of English language and literature. The Synod, after discussion, passed an interim Act for the consideration of kirk sessions in terms of the Act of 1800. The returns showed that some were in favour of moral philosophy aud political economy, and that others favoured a chair of English language and literature and constitutional history. At the last Synod the matter came up for final judgment, and the Synod, by a majority, decided in favour of a chair of moral philosophy and political economy. Wheu that was done, a deputation was appointed to communicate the decision of the Synod to the University Couucil. It was very respect-

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fully done. The University Council, after mature deliberation, declined the offer, on the ground that moral philosophy and political economy were adequately provided for. 7745. Professor Shand.] Do you know* whether the Synod took any further steps after the decision of the Council? —On the answer of the University Council being communicated to the Synod, that body took the extraordinary step of rescinding, in the same session, the Act establishing the chair of moral philosophy and political economy in connection with the Otago University, and passed an interim Act, which it ordered to be sent down to kirk sessions for consideration. 7746. Will you tell us the proposition that was sent down for consideration?— The following are the provisions of the interim Act:—" 1. The regulations adopted by the Synod on the 16th day of January, 1879, are hereby rescinded, and in lieu thereof the Synod make, pass, and adopt the following regulation as an Interim Act, that is to say —2. It shall be lawful for the said Board to pay out of the Educational Fund referred to in the said Act to any Professor of Moral Philosophy and Political Economy, or such other professor as shall be duly appointed by the said Board to a chair in any college or University in the Province of Otago with the concurrence of this Synod, as provided by section 12 of the said Act, a sum of £600 yearly, or such other sum as the Synod may from time to time determine, by way of salary and incidental expenses, so long as such professor shall continue to occupy such chair." You will observe that the matter is still open. 7747. AVith reference to the proposal you have just read, do you know whether there is any college or University legally established in the Province of Otago except the University of Otago ? — Not within the meaning of the Act of 1866. 7748. You believe, then, that it would be illegal for the Synod to endow a chair in any other institution in Otago ? —I do not think they will do it. 7749. Seeing that matters have come to a deadlock, so to speak, in consequence of the impossibility of an agreement between the Synod and the University Council, do you not think it would be advisable to have some legal solution of the difficulty —to have some legislation to make it impossible for a deadlock to take place ? —Perhaps it would. But when a body like the Synod gives up funds, it is not always desirable to press them —to deprive them of certain privileges which they hold under the Act of 1866. lam personally of opinion that it would be better for the Church to give up the patronage of these chairs. lam of opinion that the Church derives no benefit from that patronage ; that it lays a sort of responsibility upon the Church which, according to the Act, she cannot carry out without detriment to the University. Still, I think the proper solution of this matter is not far off; and lam of opinion that to go to Parliament would create ill-feeling, and would probably, to some extent, prevent such solution. 7750. You are aware, of course, that a Bill was introduced into Parliament last year with the object of providing against the deadlock which has subsequently occurred—introduced by Mr. Stout ?—Yes. 7751. Do you think it advisable that such an Act should be passed during the next session of Parliament, in order to prevent any possible mischief arising ? —I should think it very unadvisable to go to Parliament in reference to this matter. I feel sure that the good sense of the Synod will settle the matter in the interests of education generally. I think that Mr. Stout was ill advised —if he was advised —in introducing the Bill last year without putting himself into communication with the Church Trustees, or with those who had the administration of the Act of 1866. I believe he did it in the interests of the University, and not from any hostility to the Church —I never charged him with that; but I thought the step he took was an ill-advised one, the Presbyterian Church being almost to a man in favour of unsectarian education, both in the common schools and in the high schools ; yet I fear that, if too much pressure is brought to bear upon her, many of her members may be thrown on the side of denominationalism. 7752. Is it the case that proposals have been made in the Synod to divert these funds, which you have explained to us are secular funds, to the endowment of chairs in the Presbyterian Theological College which exists in Dunedin ?—There was a proposition made, but it met with so much opposition that it was modified, and the result of the discussion was that interim Act of which I have spoken. There was a proposition moved by Dr. Copland, and seconded by Mr. A. C. Begg, that a chair should be established in connection with our Theological College here; but the opposition was so strong that the proposal was not adopted. 7753. You consider yourself that such an application of the funds would be illegal ? —Most certainly. 7754. Professor Cook.] Was any other proposition made in the Synod for the disposal of these funds ? —Yes. There was a proposition made to utilize them for scholarships open to the whole community. 7755. What do you mean by the whole community—the whole colony ? —Yes. 7756. And to be held where ?—I suppose to be held in our University here. 7757. Open to the whole colony, the holders to attend the Otago University ?—Yes. 7758. AVould you regard that as a legal application of the funds ?—Not until the part of the Act of 1866 which gives the educational moiety of the Church Trust to literary chairs in a University in Dunedin is repealed. 7759. I ask you, as a matter of broad principle, whether you think it desirable that an unsectarian University or college should be partially under the patronage of a particular religious denomination ? —My own opinion is that, say, if the Church of England in Otago endowed a chair of physical science, I would give them the patronage of it, so anxious am I to see a chair like that established. But then, I would insist upon what the University Council insisted upon iv the case of the Presbyterian Synod, that the professor should be placed under the control of the University. I would certainly —as in the old Universities —give bodies outside tbe patronage of chairs if they endowed them. I would be only too glad to do so in order to get more chairs. 7760. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think the University Council should be under the necessity of accepting the nomination ?—No ; certainly not. 49—JEl. 1.

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7761. What I mean is, do you think it should be a condition of such an endowment that the University should have a right to discuss, or even to reject, the nomination that was made by the patron ? —I would not say the " nomination," but the " subject "of the chair offered. I would never bind the University Council to accept chairs unnecessary or merely ornamental, that might be presented. I think they ought to have a potential voice in determining the subject of every chair offered. 7762. I understand your meaning to be, that no chair ought to be established in the University without the consent of the University Council ? —Certainly. 7763. But my question was, whether you think it is right for the University Council to agree that, a chair having been established by some patron, the nomination of the patron should be accepted without question ? —I think you require tQ accept his nomination, but not the subject he might assign to the chair. 7764. Professor Broivn.] Has any action been taken on the resolution of the Senate ?—The resolution itself came to nothing. The Synod, however, framed what is called the interim Act, which is simply a step which the Act of 1866 requires it to take. It is now being discussed in kirk sessions. The returns will be made in January, 1880, and the whole matter will then bo finally settled by the Synod. The modus operandi is not devised by the Synod ; it is determined and defined by the Act. 7765. Do you think that, if this fund were freed from religious control, the same course should be adopted with regard to similar funds in other provinces ?—I am unacquainted with the somewhat similar funds in Canterbury, and have never succeeded in learning their history. I have exerted myself in that direction, but have failed to ascertain with anything like completeness either the story of their origin, their amount, or their management, and, therefore, I can scarcely answer the question. I understand that in Canterbury a part of the funds is devoted to denominational education; but it was in the interests of undenominational education that we divested ourselves of one-third of the rental of our twenty-two properties, and dedicated it to University education, in the interests of commerce, legislation, and religion. Mr. Maxwell Busy was sworn and examined. 7766. Professor Shand.] You are the architect engaged by the University Council to erect the University buildings ? —Yes. 7767. Have you had long experience as an architect ? —Yes ; about thirty years. 7768. Could you tell us where ? —ln England and in New Zealand. 7769. What part of New Zealand ? —ln Nelson, Christchurch, and Dunedin. 7770. Could you tell the Commission what has been the total cost of the University buildings ?— There were three contracts —the University building, the chemical department, and the professors' houses. The contract for the University building was £13,887 ; the extra work in connection with that contract amounted to £350 ; the total cost of the fittings was £652, and of the foundations £2,207 : making a total of £17,096. The contract for the chemical division was £5,674 ; the extra work was £182 35.; the fittings, gas, and all the work in connection with Professor Black's and Professor Scott's departments, came to £988 15s. : the total cost of the chemical division was £6,844 ISs. The contract price for the professors' houses was £5,040; there were four bath-rooms added at a cost of £80, and sundry small expenses amounting to £3 Bs. for extra work upon the houses ; the cost of the foundations was £1,313 18s. Bd.: making a total cost of £6,437 6s. Bd., or £1,609 6s. Bd. for each house. In addition to the above sums, there was an item of £169 for a large main drain or sewer, for the drainage of the tbree blocks of buildings. 7771. Of course the Council were aware of the amount of the contracts which they signed. Had they any means of forming an estimate of what the cost of the extras, and of the foundations, would come to ?—No ; none at all. 7772. They had no means of knowing beforehand ?—No. In the case of the chemical division I specified for a certain depth of foundation. AVhen we got into the ground, we found that it was in places so full of holes, that I thought the best plan was to omit the foundations altogether in the case of the professors' houses and the University building, and pay for the same by measure and value. The contractors had to guess at what there was, and they objected to that, and I thought it a very reasonable thing too. It involved them in loss in the chemical division, as shown by the small amount for extra foundation in that contract. 7773. And the Council had no means of forming an approximate estimate of what the total expense of the building would be?— They could have bored the ground and sunk wells, to ascertain the nature of the bottom ; but, as it was not a question of choice of sites, there was no object in doing so. The ground is composed of mould and shingle. Some years ago the river used to run over the spot on which the building now stands. It shifted its course, and left a deposit in the shape of mould, loose sand, and gravel. 7774. Did you not furnish the University Council with some approximate estimate of what the foundations would probably cost ? —No; I had not the slightest idea. All I could do was to examine the banks of the river, to see the nature of the ground. I told the Registrar it would be an expensive thing to do ; but was informed that the site could not be changed, so I must make the best of it. 7775. Professor Cook.] It has been stated in evidence that you, as architect, furnished the Council with an estimate of the cost of the foundations of all the buildings which have since been erected, your estimate being £1,500. Is tbat so ? —lt is a mistake altogether. 7776. We were told that your estimate was £1,500, and the actual cost was nearly £4,000 ? —No. When all the contracts were within six months of completion, the Council wrote to me, stating that they ■wanted to ascertain what money they would be short, and asking me what amount would be required for the whole of the extras. I said I really could not tell —that I did not know what the fittings were to be ; and as to the foundations, I had not taken out the quantities. They might cost £1,500, they might cost £2,000, or they might cost £3,000; but that, if they wanted any guidance, I would say £1,500 or £2,000 for foundations. It was no estimate at all; it was simply an expression of opinion, 7777. You did not regard it as a professional expression of opinion ? —Oh, dear ! no.

Mev. Dr. Stuart,

July 2,1879

Mr. M. Bury,

July 2, 1879.

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7778. Is it usual to let contracts in this way—to let foundations at so much per cubic yard, as I believe was done in this case ?—Yes ; if the price is a fair one, it is a proper and usual thing to do. 7779. But could not the contractor have tendered for the foundations as he did for the walls, and all the work have been let in one contract at a lump sum ?—ln the walls and woodwork, the amount of work can be measured off the drawings; in the case of the foundations for the chemical division buildings, the ground was found to be unequal in depth, and the trenches were continually breaking in, involving extra width. Had the contractors given in a lump sum for the foundations of the University buildings and the professors' houses, a large margin (perhaps larger than I should havo felt disposed to allow) would have been made. I therefore considered I was studying the interests of the Council by keeping a correct measurement of the work as it proceeded, and paying for the same at per cubic yard. 7780. I merely wish to know whether the course which has been followed, or the other, is the usual one ?—The other is the better course, but in this case it would involve sinkings all over the ground, to ascertain the extent of the foundations, and, as it was not a question as to the choice of sites, there was no object in doing so. 7781. I thought you said just now that the sinkings had been made already ?—No. 7782. But I always thought that, in the case of large buildings, that was the practice ?—That, of course, would be the proper thing to do. 7783. Could you tell us why it was not done here ? —I could not. The Council were in a great hurry to commence building, to be ready for the May session, and only gave me six weeks to do the work in; and it was not my place to make sinkings, unless at the express desire of the Council. 7784. Does not an architect usually bore to ascertain the nature of the foundation?— Yes, if they give him the money to do it; not at his own expense. 7785. Then you did not make the borings and sinkings, because you were not allowed money for the purpose ? —Yes ; that is so, in one sense. The Commission, however, must not conclude that the Council declined to incur the expense. Had I been informed that a heavy prosp#ctive outlay in foundations would necessitate the Council finding another site, I should have requested that the ground be thoroughly proved ; as it was, being uncertain as to the nature of the ground, I acted properly by the Council, in first arranging the cost per cubic yard for the concrete, &c, and afterwards keeping a strict measurement of the depths and widths of the entrenchments, as they were completed. 7780. Professor Shand.] Can you explain to the Commission how it has come about that the actual cost of the building has so much exceeded your original estimate ? —lt is hardly my estimate ; still I may say that, when these buildings were originally planned, they w*ere to be of brick and cement, and not of stone. AVhen they were originally proposed, or originally estimated for, they were to be of brick and cement. I was almost a new hand here, and I went to contractors of standing in the place, and asked them to confirm my estimate and give me their own, and they said, "If we are allowed to do it in the usual way that work is done in Dunedin, these are our prices." They were within about £3,000 of my own, and I sent the prices in to the Council. In the original design the buildings were of the classical style, and of brick and cement; but the Council decided to alter the design, and to construct the buildings with stone. I told them I should like to have nothing sham about the buildings—have the real article —and they allowed me to alter the design, and have a purely stone building ; iv addition to which, the Council required an extra class-room —now appropriated to Professor Ulrich's department— and a Professorial-Board room, with the consequent extension of the corridors as a means of access to said rooma. They also approved of my adding a clock-tower. These extras added materially to the original estimate, and to the cost of the foundations. 7787. But I think you said in your letter, " The University buildings and chemical division to be substantially built of stone" ? —That was what the contractors said they could do. It was a mistake. 7788. AYe are to understand, then, that you were misled by the contractors whom you consulted as to the price of the buildings? —They could have been done in brick and cement, as originally intended, for that money. 7789. But your statement was that they were to be built of stone ? You said the University buildings and the chemical division were to be substantially built of stone. The professors' houses have been built of brick, and the dormitories have been omitted altogether, and yet the cost has very much exceeded the estimate. That is what the Commission would like to have an explanation of?—lt is so. 7790. Professor Cook.] Do you know how it is that the contractors who were named did not actually tender for the contract, except at a very large advance on their original price? I think it is stated that they were prepared to take up the w-ork. Some of them actually did tender, we were told, but at a very large advance. Can you explain why they did that ?—No, I cannot. I was very much disgusted, as they were the highest tenderers. Of course there is one thing to be said: the style of work of these buildings is so different from anything that is done here, that they do not understand tho class of work. That was one reason, they told me, why they put a large margin on. 7792. What do you mean by "they do not understand"?—l mean that the bulk of the contractors here do not understand Gothic. If you notice the buildings about here they are principally classical, and of wood and cement, the plasterer being left to do all the outside work. There is a worse class of work here than in any place in New Zealand. 7793. Professor Brown.] Does the classical style always demand the plasterer ?—Yes ; in brick and cement buildings. You cannot do decent Gothic work in plaster very well.

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July 2,1879.

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Satueday, sth July, 1879. Peesent: Rev. W. E. Mulgan in the chair. Professor Brown, Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Rev. W. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand, Dr. Macdonald, Professor Ulrich. Mr. Robeet Gillies was sworn and examined. 7794. Bey. W. _.. Mulgan.] You are a land and estate agent, I believe? —Yes. 7795. Are you well acquainted with the value of town property in Dunedin ?—Yes. 7796. Have you had large experience in buying and selling and in valuing town properties ? —I believe I was the first land and estate agent in Dunedin, aud I am still in that business. 7797. Are you well acquainted with the building and site now occupied by the Colonial Bank ?—Yes. 7798. What, in your opinion, was the value of that building and site together, two years ago, the date at which it was purchased by the Colonial Bank from the Otago University?—l think that two years ago it was certainly worth not less than £50,000. 7799. Is its value greater or less at the present time ? —Probably it is firmer now, but properties are a little lower than they were some time ago. They were a little higher about twelve mouths ago; but just now prices have rather declined. 7800. Professor Sale.] AVhat is that owing to ? —To depression in business generally. 7801. Tightness in the money market ? —Yes ; it is only temporary. 7802. Was there any tightness two years ago ? —No. 7803. Bey. W. JE. Mulgan.] Do you know at what price the property was purchased by the Colonial Bank ?—I have only learned from hearsay that it was sold at £27,000 odd. If the Commission desire it, I can state the grounds upon which I base the estimate I have given, so that they may judge, themselves, as to its soundness. There are two ways of arriving at the value : First, taking the price per foot of frontage; and, second, taking the price per quarter-acre; tho first by the foot of frontage, the second by the area. By the first, —there are, I think, 120 feet of frontage to Princes Street, and the same to Bond Street. One hundred and fifty pounds per foot for the Princes Street frontage would give £18,900; and £100 per foot for the Bond Street frontage would give £12,600 : making a total of £31,500 for the land alone, without the building, Some might object to reckoning the two frontages; but the depth is 152 feet. The block below —that is, the block between Bond Street and Crawford Street —is ouly SO feet deep, so that it is a fair thing to take half fhe depth as the value to go upon. Now, to show you that such prices have been obtained, I may mention that there is a section in Bond Street further along, opposite the Union Company's offices, which is 40 feet by 80 feet: that was bought some time ago for £4,000, or £100 a foot. The University land is in a very much better position than that section, and is one block nearer High Street. Then, again, at least two years ago the directors of the Otago Daily Times were, to my knowledge, offered £11,000 for their site and building. I know that the building did not cost more than £4,000, so that that was like £7,000 for the site : that is equal to £175 per foot of frontage to Bond Street. Of course, the site of the Daily Times building is very much better than the Bond Street portion of the University land; but it is not so good as, or, at any rate, it is fairly comparable with, the Princes Street frontage. So that Ido not think that £150 per foot is too high a value, at which to estimate the Princes Street frontage of the University site; especially when I know that " Section 46, Block 6, Dunedin," fronting Princes Street, immediately opposite the Post Office, has been valued far the purposes of the land-tax at £14,000, which is at the rate of £175 per foot.* lam attorney and agent for that property, and am aw*are that that is the rate at which it has been valued ; and I also know that very few appeals have been made against the valuations of the valuator for the ward in which this property is situated. We have appealed against this particular valuation, but we do not expect to get it reduced much. 7804. Professor Cook.] AVhat is the depth of the land to which you are now referring ? —I forget just now; but it is a short depth. The shape of the block is peculiar. 7805. Would it be more tban a hundred feet deep, do you suppose ? —I do not think so ; but I could not say. It is a different kind of section. It has more than the usual frontage, aud less depth.f Comparing these prices, and other valuations that have been made in town, with the estimate I have given of the value of the University land, it will be seen at once that the latter is rather under than over the proper amount. Taking the second method, —the price per quarter-acre of Mr. Kilgour's section at Wise's Corner is, I understand, put down by tbe land-tax valuator at £30,000. 7806. Professor Sale.] Is the building on that property valuable ? —The buildings are not valued for the land-tax. The quarter-acre is valued at £30,000. I believe the valuation is appealed against; still it gives another valuator's opinion. 7807. Professor Shand.] What is the extent of frontage in that case ?—66 by 165. It is a corner section. 7808. Sixty-six feet of frontage to Princes Street ? —Yes ; that is, £30,000 for one quarter-acre. Now the University site is nearly two quarter-acres. In the £50,000 which I have put down I only value the land at £30,000, and the buildings at £20,000. I believe the buildings could fairly be valued at even £5,000 more, from inquiries I have made of experts. Of course, Ido not pretend to be an expert in valuing bricks and mortar; but I have made inquiries, and I believe that £20,000 is a low valuation for the buildings. Then, again, there is Section 25, Block 14, which fronts Princes Street, further up. It is what is known as Farley's buildings. It has a large frontage to Princes Street, and is 66 feet deep. But there is only a depth of about 30 feet available, on account of an immense * The witness desires to add : "The valuation was, I believe, £175 per foot on 80 feet, being tho frontage as usually reckoned. It really is, I find, however, 83 feet: so that £14,000 would be a little less than £170 per foot."—Sec. B. Com. t The witness desires to add: "The actual depth, I have since ascertained, is 81J feet."—Sec. K. Com.

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hill at the back. That is valued by the Land-Tax Department at £22,000. lamin a position to state that, because lam agent and attorney for the property. I think it is an excessive valuation, and have appealed against it. 7809. Professor Sale.] How much is that per foot ? — Speaking from memory, I think the frontage is 105 feet; that is, £133 a foot, with 30 feet available depth. Then there is Section 4, Block 15, upon which the City Hotel is erected, and for which property also I am agent and attorney. That land is valued by the Laud-Tax Department at £16,000 : that is for the quarter-acre section. I think it has only 132 feet frontage to Princes Street by 82 feet deep. That is at the rate of £121 per foot of frontage. Then, again, there is Section 33, Block 14, upon which the Criterion Hotel stands, and for the owner of which lam agent. That is a quarteracre also, and is valued by the Land-Tax Department at £20,000. These four last valuations that I have referred to will be appealed against; in fact, I have no doubt they will be reduced. Still there is a very large margin, the figures being—£3o,ooo, £22,000, £16,000, and £20,000 for quarter-acres each, against £30,000 for two quarter-acres, or nearly two. So that, allowing for a very considerable advance in the value of property since the sale of the University site, I am perfectly sure that £15,000 per quarter-acre for the University site is not too much —in fact, it is low. There is another way of checking whether or not it is a fair value, and that is, to see what is the probable rental that would be derived from a property like that. I do not mean that the rental is a fair test of value, for, in an improving property like that, actual returns might give a very small percentage, and yet the property be worth a great deal more, to hold it. As far as I can learn—of course I may be wrong; I have no means, except hearsay, of ascertaining what rents are obtainable for that property 7810. Professor Cook.] That are obtainable, or actually obtained ? —Actually obtained just now from what is let, and obtainable from what is not let. But, as far as I can glean, the rental must be equal to something like £4,000 per annum, which is 8 per cent, upon £50,000. So that these three methods of valuation —first, the rate per foot; second, the value per quarter-acre; and third, the actual income obtainable from the building —all give more than the £50,000. 7811. Professor Shand.] Do you mean that an income of £4,000 is obtainable from the buildings at present erected on tbe section ?—I think so. I will give the data upon which I go. lam told that Mr. Webb's office yields a rental of £300 per annum ; the Colonial Insurance Office, £200 per annum; Ritchie and Bartleman, £157 ; New Zealand Trust and Loan, £110; Mr. Cook's office, £175 ; the New Zealand Agricultural Company, £125. There is another office of two rooms for which, I believe, £150 a year has been offered. Then there are nine rooms upstairs, which are not let at present, and I believe the rental asked for them is £504 per annum, and, as compared with those that are let, this is not high; so that the total rental from those rooms would be £1,721. The bond yields a yearly rental of £250. It was let about five years ago for this amount, on a lease for fourteen years. The tenants had to excavate the cellarage, and at their own cost built up the stone front and offices, so that a very much higher rent, in reality, is paid. The place is worth now from £800 to £900 per annum. The banking hall and suite of rooms on same floor, together with the suite of rooms, including Board-room on the upper floor, and the cellarage, and messengers' living rooms, may all be fairly put down at £1,500 per annum. So that £4,000 per annum is really now the fair rental of the place. 7812. If the University Council had resolved to lease the building instead of selling it, what income do you think they could have reasonably expected to obtain from it ? —That is a very difficult question to answer, and one would have to go back to the position in which things were at the time. A good deal would depend upon the chance of getting such a tenant as a bank. 7813. Professor Cook.] But supposing it were put into the hands of an agent, to be let as offices ? — The Bank has spent a good deal of money —I do not suppose they could have spent less than £3,000 — in converting a portion of it into offices. If the whole building were required to be similarly altered, it would involve the expenditure of a good deal of money. That has got to be looked at. You see, the Bank, in buying the building, had a tenant in themselves for the larger part of it. I should not like to give an answer to tho question without taking time to consider, as I have never thought of the plan of cutting up the rest of the building into offices. About £2,000 per annum is obtainable now from what is let or open for letting, without taking into account any increase in Lange and Thoneman's original money rent. I think, therefore, it is not too much to expect a similar amount from the other larger half of the building (now occupied by the Bank), which is also the best side, the sunny side ; especially if space had been economized by a balcony round the inside of the hall to give access to the sides, which would have saved passages, and still not interfered with the use of the main chamber as a public hall or exchange. Taking everything into account, I may safely say that £3,000 per annum might reasonably have been expected from the building when altered, even at the time it was sold. It would not have all let at once, but gradually it would. Three thousand pounds sterling per annum is 6 per cent, on £50,000. The increasing value of rental will more than compensate for deterioration aud repairs for some time to come, even now. 7814. Professor Shand.] Would it have been wiser, in your opinion, for the University Council to have leased the building, instead of selling it ?—Yes, undoubtedly—at such a price. Tho property in my opinion, was thrown away. I stated so publicly. 7815. Professor Sale.] Publicly ?—I stated so freely. I never had any occasion to do so at a public meeting. 7816. You have never concealed your opinion ? —No; I stated it to members of the University Council. 7817. Professor Shand.] Would the Council have had any difficulty, at that time, in raising such funds as they required —say £20,000 or £30,000 —on the security of the building ? —I do not think they would have had any difficulty in raising a considerable sum, but I do not think they could have raised £30,000. They could have obtained a very large sum. 7818. Dr. Macdonald.] Fifteen thousand pounds? —Yes; I think they could have raised that amount easily on the land and building. 7819. Professor Shand.] Twenty thousand pounds ? —Possibly £20,000. A good deal would

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. depend on the parties lending. Some capitalists prefer to lend money upon acres, and will not look upon buildings at all. Such capitalists would hardly look at such a security. But others, who like to see rents coming in, and prefer having a property that will bring them in something if they are called upon to take possession, would invest in city property. It would depend also, to some extent, upon the amount of available capital in the market at the time. 7820. Professor Sale.] AVere any of the members of the Council aware of your opinion before the property was sold ?—I think so. I spoke to several of them about it —certainly to one ; but I could not say whether it was before or after the sale. 7821. Dr. Macdonald.] The negotiations were going on for a considerable time?— Yes. I never thought they would sell it. 7822. It was publicly known that the sale was proposed on the part of the University?— Yes. 7823. Professor Shand.] If the Council had resolved to borrow money on the security of the buildiug, and perhaps on the security also of their other endowments, what rate of interest would they have had to pay for the loau, supposing they got it in the colony? —At that time money was obtainable at from 7 to 8 per cent. —not higher than 8 ; a few loans were as low as 6|. 7824. If, instead of borrowing money in the colony, they had employed an agent at Home, do you think they could have procured it there at lower rates ?—I think so. 7825. At what rate ? —Of course when people send money from Home they expect to get the colonial rate for it. There would not be a great deal saved by that. Still they might have got the money at 6| per cent. There have been loans advanced in Dunedin at Q\ per cent., although not many. I think it is probable that the money might have been obtained from some of the insurance offices at 7 per cent. 7826. Professor Sale.] How do you account for the fact that the building was open for sale for a considerable time, and that the University Council received no better offer than £27,000 ? —There were very few people in a position to take up such a property ; and it was generally understood that the Council were averse to selling to any private individual. There was a very general feeling that it should not be sold. It was offered to the Corporation, and that body was nibbling after it for a time; and people generally thought that, if it was going to bo sold, at any rate it would be transferred from one public body to another. The loss of the hall, which was used for concerts, lectures, meetings, &c, was very much felt; and there can be little doubt that there would have been a great noise about it, had it not been tbat there were so many people interested in the transaction. It was a very good transaction for the Colonial Bank, there is no doubt about that. But I never heard any other opinion expressed outside, than that the property was thrown away. 7827. Professor Brown.] You mean tho interested parties were those who would have made a noise had the sale been to any one else ?—Yes. I think there would have been a great deal of public feeling shown, if the property had been sold to a private speculator, for instance. 7828. Do you mean that there were people interested in the Colonial Bank on the Council of the University ? —No ; Ido not wish to insinuate anything of that sort. That is a matter of fact, which can easily be ascertained. The bank was a quasi public body, and it got the building. However, these are all opinions. As to the value, I have no doubt whatever. It would have paid the Council— whether they could have rented it, or borrowed, or not —to have stuck to tho property, which should never have been sold at any such figure as that which was paid for it. And I do not think that £50,000 is an excessive valuation. 7829. Professor Shand.] Is a property of that sort likely to increase largely in value ?—lt is a common saying that it is worth its weight in gold; but a more appropriate saying would be, that some day or other it will be worth as many sovereigns as could be placed over its area. There is no saying what that property may be worth in the future. 7530. Professor Cook.] You regard it as one of the best sites in Dunedin ?—Yes, undoubtedly the best site. 7531. Professor Sale.] Do you think that a property of that sort is more likely to increase in value, looking forward to the future, than a property of the same value at present consisting of pastoral lands ? —So much would depend upon what the pastoral lands were, and where they were situated. It is a very wide thing to compare properties of that sort. You might hit upon pastoral lands that would become central through the extension of railways, and acquire as great a value as town lands; or pastoral lands that would become available for agriculture, and a large area would yield a large return. But the old University site is a property which is more likely to increase in value than any other in Dunedin, or as likely. I may be wrong, but I do not think the University Council advertised the property for sale. It was placed in the hands of an agent who had not much to do with selling property, and who was only in Dunedin when he was not in the Assembly; and I did not see anything of an advertisement about it. I was very much tempted to speak out on the subject at the time, but I felt that, if I did, it might be thought it was because I had not the selling of the property. But I regretted it very much, having always taken a great interest in the University. 7832. Professor Shand.] AVhat are the circumstances that give such a high value to this site ? —lt is situated in the very heart of the city, close to the wharf, the railway station, the post office, the telegraph office, and the customhouse; and is in the centre, between the part of the city which extends northwards and that which extends southwards. The business part of the city, you may say, is pretty evenly balanced, north and south, from that point. At one time, the head of Jetty Street, the end of Manse Street, and the foot of Stafford Street, were considered the commercial centre, the Post Offico being then in that locality. But the centre has now shifted down to the junction of Rattray, Princes, and High Streets, which is just where the University building is. 7833. Bey. W. JE. Mulgan.] It has been stated that, although the site is valuable, the existence of the building upon it was rather a drawback than an advantage to the property ? —Undoubtedly, the building was a bit of a white elephant; but then it cost a great deal more than the sum I have put down for it, and the character of the building was very good—the foundations were particularly good and strong. 7834. Professor Sale.] AVould those foundations be valuable, supposing the building itself were

Mr. S. CHllies.

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removed? —That is more a question for an architect or a builder; but I have very little doubt they could be utilized. 7835. For a building of almost any kind? —The land alone was worth more money than was paid for the building and site. I have no hesitation in saying that. 7836. You think, then, that in any case it would bave been wise for the University Council to have stuck to the property ?•—Yes ; I think so. Of course it is a question on which others can give a better opinion than 1 can ; but, in my opinion, from what I saw of the working of the University, and the purposes to which the building was put at that time, I do not think there was any such great detriment as to necessitate a sacrifice. I think that the University could have been conducted in that building for a number of years, until the growth of the place helped the utilization of such a building; because, of course, if the Council had determined to convert it into offices, some time would elapse before the demand would be such as to absorb them all. For instance, there is a portion of the building unlet just now; but I have no doubt it will soon all be let. I have no doubt that in a very few years that building will become one of tho most valuable buildings in Dunedin, even independent of the bank. Therefore I think it was a mistaken policy to sell it. 7837. Bey. W. JE. Mulgan.] Supposing that the University Council had decided that it was advisable to erect other buildings for the University, what, iv your opinion, would have been the best mode of obtaining funds for that purpose ?—I have always thought, and I said so at the time, that their proper course was to borrow, supposing it to be necessary, which I do not think it was. Monday, 7th July, 1879. Peesent : Professor Brown in the chair. Professor Cook, Professor Sale, Rev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Shand, Rev. W. E. Mulgan, Professor Ulrich. The Hon. W. H. Reynolds, M.L.C, was sworn and examined. 7838. Professor Brown.] Are you Chairman of the Presbyterian Church Property Board ?—No ; there is no regular chairman. lam a member of the Board. 7839. How long have you held that position ?—I am one of the original trustees. I have been a member of the Board since the Act was passed in 1866, and I was one of the trustees named in that Act. 7840. Can you tell us what was the origin of that trust? —I do not admit that this Commission has any right to ask any question regarding this trust. I have taken a legal opinion upon it, and lam advised that the Commissioners' powers do not extend to this. At the same time, I have not the least objection to answer any question that may be put to me. You will find all about the origin of the trust in a book written by the Rev. Mr. Gillies. That book gives a very good description of the whole settlement when this endowment took place. But, as you seem to wish for further information, or wish to get it from members of the Board, I will tell you. The New Zealand Company entered into an arrangement with an association of lay members of the Free Church of Scotland. Those lay members became members of what was called the Otago Association. They were to purchase land from the New Zealand Company, for which they were to pay 10s. an acre in reality, but they nominally paid £2 an acre for it. One-eighth of this was to go towards the purchase of an endowment for the Presbyterian Church. This endowment I hold to be as much private property as is my own private property. This endowment was purchased by an association of lay members of the Free Church of Scotlaud, and all the purchasers under them became specially interested in all those reserves. I was one of the purchasers, and of course I became a member of the association in consequence. 7841. And was the sole purpose of this one-eighth for religion ? —lt was for religious and educational purposes in connection with the Free Church of Scotland, the church to be established here. That was its origin. 7842. Can you tell us what led to the Act of 1866 ? If it is a private trust, can you tell us why there was an Act passed concerning it in 1860 ? —lt was thought advisable to have an Act passed. I do not know that there was any great necessity for it, but there was a difficulty with regard to the portion that was to be devoted to educational purposes. The Board, and also the original members of the association, felt that there was a difficulty. Of course, the endowment might have been devoted to educational purposes in connection with the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland; but, seeing that the Provincial Government was then supplying the necessities of education, it was deemed advisable to take it out of that category altogether, and to devote it to soma higher branch of education. 7843. Bey. W. J. Habens.] You mean that the Provincial Government was supplying the means for primary education? —Yes; and it was not thought advisable that this fund should be devoted to denominational schools in connection with the Presbyterian Church. 7844. Professor Brown.] Can you tell us the exact purpose to which this Act devoted the endowment ?—The Act itself explains that it is to be devoted to the foundation of a literary chair or chairs in any college or University in the Province of Otago. 7845. Professor Shand.] That refers to one-third of the proceeds ?—Yes; one-third is the educational portion. 7846. Is it your opinion that the Act of 1866, in dividing the endowment into an ecclesiastical fund and an educational fund, secularized the educational one-third ?—Yes ; I consider it did. I may be misquoting the words of the Act, but my impression is that the Act provides for the endowment of a literary chair or chairs in any college or University which shall be established or shall exist in Otago. I had charge of the Act in Parliament, and I certainly understood that it was to be devoted to a secular chair or chairs, and up to the present it has always been understood by the Board that it was to be devoted to secular chairs.

Mr. B. Gillies.

July 5,1879.

Bon.W.Reynolds,

July 7, 1879.

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7847. I find, in another clause of the Act, that with the proceeds of the two-thirds, called the ecclesiastical fund, a theological chair or chairs may be established ?—Yes ; the Synod may establish and endow theological chairs out of part of the two-thirds for the ecclesiastical fund. 7848. Does not the giving of express power to the Synod to endow theological chairs out of the two-thirds, strengthen your opinion that the one-third was intended to be secularized? —I have no doubt of that whatever, and I do not think you will find a single member of the Church Property Board who is not of the same opinion. Of course, you are aware that there has been a little dispute, between the Synod and the Church Property Board, about the appointment of professors. 7849. It is stated in the clause that deals with the application of the educational fund —-that is, the portion meant to be secularized by the Act —that it is to be applied to the erection or endowment of a literary chair or chairs in any college or University that shall be erected, or shall exist in the Province of Otago. Is there now any institution in Otago that answers that description ?—Yes ; there is the University of Otago. 7850." Is there any other institution that would answer the description ?—There is no other. 7851. If it were proposed to apply this fund to a chair in, say, a theological college belonging to the Presbyterian Church, do you think that would be a legal application ?—I am not prepared to give a legal opinion, but I am prepared to say this much : that I do not believe the Church Property Board will even agree to do so. The Board has a certain control. The Synod may say, "We desire so-and-so done," but the Board are not bound to make the appointment. 7852. Is it impossible, under the Act, for the Synod to act without the concurrence of the Church Property Board ? —That is a legal question. Ido not think myself that they can. But, if there is any doubt upon that point, the sooner it is set right by Act of Parliament the better. 7853. We have it in evidence that this fund is now in a position to endow a second chair ? —Yes. 7854. I understand it has been for some years in that position. Can you explain to the Commission why a second chair has not yet been endowed ? —lt is some years since the Board intimated to the Synod that there would be sufficient funds, by the time a professor could be got, to endow another chair; and I think the suggestion was, that the chair should be English language and literature. The Synod took another view, and they wanted to establish a chair which the Church Property Board thought was already occupied, and in the possession of Professor Macgregor. Thus the question has been hung up. 7855. Is that on account of the want of agreement between the Synod and the Church Property Board ?—I presume that is it. At any rate, nothing has been done, so that the funds have since been accumulating. 7850. Has any official communication been made to the University Council, that the funds are in this position ? —Yes ; there was an official communication to the University Council. I think a communication was sent both to the Synod and the University Council. I have been away so much that I cannot be quite certain of the exact nature of the communication; but, as far as I can remember, it asked suggestions from the University Council as to what chair would be necessary, and also stated that we thought a chair of English language and literature would be the best one to found. That is my impression, but I cannot be very certain about it. 7857. Supposing even that tbe Church Property Board and the Synod were at one, as to the character of the chair to be established, do you think it would follow that the University Council w-ould be obliged to accept the chair ? —No ; of course the University Council could decline. But my idea is—-and the idea of the Board was—that the Synod, the Board, and the University Council should go hand in hand—that the Synod and the Board should receive suggestions from the University Council ; because it is of no use for one to fight against the other. It must be done by mutual agreement. 7858. Bey. W. J. Habens.] If the Synod should determine upon one course —say upon the establishment of a certain chair —and the University Council should refuse to fall in with the views of the Synod, does it appear to you that the trustees would be utterly unable to discharge their trust during the continuance of such a deadlock ?—They would be unable to make any appointment. The fund would go on accumulating. That is, if the Church Property Board agreed with the University Council. 7859. Would it not be just the same if the Synod and the Church Property Board agreed upon the establishment of a chair, and the University Council would not accept that chair ? —lt would be just the same. The result would be that the fund would be locked up, as at present; and that might continue indefinitely. 7860. Professor Shand.] Is it not possible that a greater evil might take place ? Would it not be possible for the Synod and the Church Property Board, if acting together, to nominate a person to hold a certain professorship, and that that person might not afterwards be accepted by the University Council ? —I do uot think the Board would ever proceed so far as that. I believe the Board would have more good sense, than to make an appointment without the concurrence of the University Council. 7861. Do you not think it desirable that there should be some legal way of getting out of such a difficulty ? —As a member of the Board I am very anxious to see some legal way out of the difficulty. 7862. Of course that can only be accomplished by further legislation ?—l'do not see any other way out of the difficulty, unless an agreement can be come to. 7863. AVould you indicate the provisions of a measure which you think would answer this purpose? —My own impression, as a member of the Presbyterian Church, who has taken a very active interest in it since its foundation here, is that the Synod should relinquish all control over that fund, and leave it to the Church Property Board and the University Council to decide what chair shall be established. 7864. Would you require those two bodies to agree upon any course ? If you left it to those two bodies to agree upon any course, might not a deadlock still take place ?—I do not know whether you saw Mr. Stout's Bill of last session. I consider that that Bill would have answered the purpose and met the case. It was an admirable Bill. In the event of there being any deadlock, it was to be referred to the Governor in Council.

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7865. Would the Church Property Board be in favour of such a measure ?—My conviction is that they would bail it with great satisfaction. I think so from what has taken place at the Board. 7860. Do they propose to introduce such a measure themselves ?—I do not think so. 7807. Asa member of the University Council, are you aware whether that body proposes to introduce or promote any measure ?—I am not aware of it. I have not heard of any movement in that direction. I certainly understood that Mr. Stout was going to introduce his Bill again this session. I think every one understood the same, and consequently no action has been taken. But his resigning his seat has placed it in a different position. 7808. Professor Brown.] Can you tell us what is the present estimated value of the estate ?— I cannot do so at the present moment; but I should decline answering the question if I could. I might tell the approximate value if I were to take time to calculate it, but I would decline fixing any value. However, there can be no objection to Mr. Smith, the factor, giving the revenue derived from it. 7869. AVould you refer the question to him ? —No. I do not know whether he will give it or not. I could not, without referring to the properties, give the exact value ; but, if I came prepared, I would decline to answer the question. 7870. Professor Shand.] Are the accounts audited by a public authority ?—No. 7871. Is there any statement of the condition of the fund presented to the Synod ?—Yes ; every year. 7872. Are those accounts published ? —Yes. 7873. Can you tell us the income and expenses of management of the one-third of the Church Property Trust devoted to education ?—The whole of tbat information is to be found in the annual report of tho Synod's proceedings, which the factor, Mr. Edmund Smith, can supply. Mr. Edmund Smith was sworn and examined. 7874. Professor Broivn.] Aro you secretary of the Church Property Board?— Yes. I am generally called "factor." 7875. How long have you held that position ?—About sixteen years. 7876. Can you tell us the exact income of the one-third of that property devoted to educational purposes ? —Before doing so, may I be allowed to remark that some members of the Presbyterian Church Property Board think that this Commission is travelling outside its scope. I regard myself merely as the servant of the Board, and I do not know whether you will force me to give evidence, in the face of the feeling of the Board. 7877. Mr. Reynolds has stated the same, and has communicated so much information to us. —I regard myself merely in the light of servant of the Board, and I do not know whether I am justified in giving information, unless you compel me to do so. 7878. But are you willing to give information ?—Personally, I have no objection. 7879. Can you state the present income from the educational one-third ? —The gross income from this particular fund last year was £1,530. 7880. How* much of that was paid out for the first chair founded ?—£6l2 10s.: salary for 12i months. 7881. How much is there remaining? —There was some commission ta be deducted from that. There was actually paid out last year, for salary and commission, £649 (omitting shillings and pence). 7882. Does that include the whole expense of tho trust ? —No ; the revenue of this portion of the trust is at present derived from two sources. First, one-third of the net rentals of properties; and second, interest derivable from the accumulated surplus of this third. The commission included in this £619 is that charged on the interest only. 7883. AVhat yearly income have you remaining for disposal ?—Between £SOO and £900. 7884. Is that after all expenses in connection with the one-third are paid ?—Yes. Still, in prospect of a second chair being endowed, the income in future will scarcely amount to that, inasmuch as the surplus has been accumulating gradually, and is invested from time to time in order to bring in further income. 7885. Bey. W. J. Habens.] That is, the amount you mention includes interest on deposit?—On mortgage. 7886. AVhat is the amount of the reserve now ?—£5,450. That is cash to the credit of the fund at the present time. 7887. Are you of opinion that the estate is producing a fair revenue, in proportion to its actual value ?—I am. In some instances we are not getting the exorbitant rents tbat others are ; but I think we are getting fair rents. 7888. Are they such rents as any reasonable individual dealing with such property ought to get?— Clearly. 7889. Professor Shand]. Can you tell us when the first intimation was made to the University Council, that the funds could support another chair in addition to the chair already supported?—l could if I had the minute books hero. At all events, it was about the time we had an additional £000 a year coming in. I think it was about two or three years ago. 7890. Have the funds in the meantime been further accumulating ?—Yes. The revenue has increased in this way: Many leases have fallen out, the original rentals of which were very small. The rentals from those leases are now materially increased. For instance, farms in the East Taieri were let many years ago at a rental of £1 per fifty acres. Those farms are now worth from 20s. to 255. an acre. 7891. Is the revenue likely to increase rapidly ?—No ; not for some time. 7892. The salary of one professor is already paid out of this fund. Do the trustees hand over the money to the University Couucil ?—Yes ; in monthly payments. 7893. You have mentioned a sum of £49 for commission. AVhat is the nature of that payment ?— As factor, I collect tho interest, and lam paid by commission. Tho sum of £49 cannot be all commission. Portion of it is commission; and I cannot recollect what the other portion is. 7894. Professor Brown.] AVhat is the extent of the endowment of land ? —Speaking roughly, it consisted originally of twenty-two properties. Each original New Zealand Company's property con* 50— H. 1.

Hon.W.Heynolds. July 7, 1879.

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sisted of a quarter-acre section, a ten-acre section, and a fifty-acre section. That is really the bulk of it. There have been one or two properties purchased, exchanges, and so forth. _ . 7895. Professor Shand.] Can you give us a general idea as to how many years will elapse in all probability before a third chair can be established, taking the salary at £600 a year as before? —I cannot say without referring to the records. It depends upon when the leases expire. But the whole of the leases have a good many years to run. 7896. Do you suppose it"will take place in five or six years ? —No. Ido not anticipate that. The net receipts from rentals last year was £1.200. 7897. Professor Brown] Can you Biipply the Secretary with a copy of the report which Mr. Reynolds told us is printed in the proceedings of the Synod?— Yes; I can give you a copy of the report of the Synod's proceedings. In that report it is a mere abstract. It simply shows the receipts and expenditure. Ido not think the items of expenditure are specified. The Rev. James Copland, M.A., M.D., Ph.D., was sworn and examined. 7895. Professor Brown.] You are Moderator of the Synod of the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland ?—Yes. 7899. Are you acquainted with the proportion of the Church trust that is devoted to educational purposes ?—Yes. 7900. Do you know what bodies are concerned in the decision as to the chairs that should be founded from that portion of the trust?— The Synod alone. 7901. Is the Church Property Board not concerned ? —No ; the Synod alone. 7902. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Has the University Council no power at all in the matter? —No. 7903. Professor Cook.] Have not the kirk sessions ?—The kirk sessions are required by the Statute to know what chair the Synod has selected, before it is finally settled. The decision of the Synod is first recorded in an interim Act. By the Statute, that must be sent down to the sessions of the Church, and an intimation along with it of the day, at the next sitting, on which the matter will be brought up again for final settlement. The sessions have the power to appear on that day, and say anything they desire on the subject. 7904. Professor Brown] Suppose the two bodies come into conflict —suppose the kirk sessions do not agree with what the Synod suggested—what would be the result?— The power lies entirely with the Synod. The kirk sessions have only the power of appearing, and stating anything they desire on the subject; but the power then lies entirely with the Synod, after hearing them, to determine as they may see fit. 7905. Then the kirk sessions bave practically no power? —No. They have only the opportunity of letting their voice be heard, before the final decision is arrived at. 7906. But their voice is of no value in the decision? —It has a certain moral value. It has no legal and positive power; but it has weight. 7907. Professor Shand.] It has been stated in evidence that the Church Property Board is also entitled to a voice in this determination. Is not that the case, in terms of the Act ?—No; in my opinion it is not. Section 9of the Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act says, " The said Trustees shall from time to time apply the said ' Education Fund ' (in accordance with regulations to be made by the said Synod in manner hereinafter mentioned) in the erection or endowment of a literary chair or chairs in any college or University which shall be erected or shall exist in tho Province of Otago, or for either or both of these purposes." Then, in the next section, which states how* the regulations are to be framed, you will find there is no mention whatever made of the trustees. Section 10 says, " The regulations of the said Synod, to bo made from time to time for the guidance of the said Trustees, shall be made in the following manner, that is to say : They shall be passed as an interim Act of the said Synod, and a printed copy of such Act, together with a notice of the day on which the said Synod intend to fiually adopt such regulations, shall be sent to each minister who shall for the time being be a member of such Synod, and to tho Session Clerk of each congregation of the Presbyterian Church under the jurisdiction of the said Synod, to be submitted to the session of the congregation of which he is Session Clerk, and each said session shall be entitled to appear before tbe said Synod, and to be heard on the subject of such regulations, before any such regulations as aforesaid, shall be adopted by the said Synod, and before any alteration shall be made in any regulations which shall be already in force, and it shall be lawful for the said Synod from time to time, after hearing the said several congregations, to pass and adopt such regulations, either with or without alterations or amendments, as to them shall seem expedient." There is no mention made there of fhe trustees, except that they shall receive such regulations for tbeir guidance, that is, in paying out of tho funds the moneys which shall be included in the said regulations. 7903. Bey. W. J". Habens.] AVhat office has the University Council, with regard to the acceptance or rejection of tho offer of the endowment of a chair?—lf I may give an opinion, on a matter which lies somewhat out of my sphere iv the Synod, I would say, my opinion is that the right of the University Council in the matter is simply the right they might have to determine whether they should accept any offered endowment which might come from any quarter —they might approve of the purpose, or they might not. Of course they, as the University Council, have their own discretion, acting under their own Act. 7909. Then, if the trustees are bound to apply this money to the erection aud maintenance of chairs in some College, and if there be only one such college in which such chairs can be erected, aud if Ihe University Council may refuse to accept the' chair which the Synod proposes, what possibility does there seem to you to be of the trustees exercising their function at ail ?—The point on which, I think, your question implies a certain mistake, is iv tho assumption that there is only one college in which any chair may be erected. AYe have a college iv connection with the Presbyierian Church, and it is in the option of the Synod to erect and endow their literary chair in that college ; and at the present time a proposal is under consideration having that as its purpose. 7910. Professor Shand.] Does that college exist under the authority of the public law ?—lt exists

Mr. E. Smith,

July 7, 1879.

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in connection with the college fund which tho Synod administers. That college is erected, and we have at present one theological professor iv it. 7911. The question is, whether it has been erected or exists under auy legal sanction? Has it any legal status? —I do not quite understand what you mean by legal status. 7912. Is there anything to distinguish that college from a private college ? For example, do you think it would be in the option of the Synod to erect chairs in a college founded by a private individual? Let us take Orakanui College. Do you think tho Synod would be at liberty to erect chairs iv that College?— According to the words of the Act, I presume the Synod's power is unrestricted, as to the nature ot' the college or University in which they may choose to erect chairs. 7913. Do you think, then, that the Synod could endow chait'3 in Orakanui College ? —AVell, we have not had that before us. AYe have had under our consideration the endowment of chairs in the College of the Presbyterian Church, which is supported out of our college funds ; and the terms of section 9 of the Act are unrestricted. 79 L 4. AVhen you look at section 7 of the Act, which gives power to the Synod to employ a part of the remaining two-thirds of this fund, called the " ecclesiastical fund," in tho endowment of any theological chair or chairs in connection with the said Presbyterian Church, do you not think that that excludes tho possibility of your interpretation of clause 9 ? —No. In tbat same section it states, in very nearly the same words as in clause 9, that such theological chair or chairs in connection with the said Presbyterian Church of Otago maj be endowed in any college or University which may hereafter be erected in the said Province of Otago, or any or either of such purposes. So that, interpreting the words in section 9, " any college or University," in connection with section 7, it clearly gives sanction to the Synod's choosing, if it so desires, the Presbyteriau College instead of any other college.* 7915. But, on the other hand, does not the wording of section 7 throw a doubt on the propriety of establishing even theological chairs in any college which may not be established by law ? —The clause says, " Any college or University which may hereafter be erected." It does not even say " which shall exist." 7915 a. I suppose " may be erected " means, " which may be erected under authority of the law by Act of Parliament" ? —I do not put that interpretation upon it, but of course tbat is a question for a lawyer to determine. 7916. But, if you read clauses 7 and 9 together, does it not seem to you that it was clearly the intention of the Assembly, at tbat time, to secularize tho one-third part which was devoted to educatioual purposes ?—lt was the intention to devote one-third part to the endowmont of a literary chair or chairs. If that may be called secularizing, of course in that sense tho one-third part was secularized, but only in that sense. 7917. Professor Cook.] AVhat do you understand to be the exact force of the words " literary chairs " ?—AVithout attempting to define it strictly, I may say that the Synod has always understood the words " literary chair "to be used, in the Act, in contrast with the words " theological chair." A scientific chair, for example, would, I believe, fairly come under this designation, looking at the manner in which the terms are used, " literary " being distinguished simply from "theological," but not from " scientific," nor from " philosophical." 7918. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Distinguished, do you think, as a liberal education is from technical education? —Not precisely; but as a technical theological education would be distinguished from education in any branch of arts. 7919. Professor Shand.] You have a Professor of Theology in your College. From what source is his salary paid? —We havo two sources from which we have contributed funds towards that purpose; one being the ecclesiastical fund, which constitutes tho two-thirds, the other being the college fund, which is entirely distinct, aud out of which fhe expenses of the College have been principally defrayed. 7920. AVill you tell us the history of this college fund? —I am not in a position to state the early history of it; but its present position is to bo seen by reference to the Rev. Mr. Gillies's book. You can see the Act by which it is administered, at page 92. There aro two properties administered under that Act, which are there defined ; but the purpose of the college fund is defined in page 95 of the Appendix. AVith regard to the origin, the Act simply states in the preamble, " AVhereas by Crown grant bearing date," so and so, tbis section was granted upon trust. There is one upon trust for a manse, called tho Manse Reserve, and another upon trust for the site of a church and schoolhouse in connection with the Presbyterian Church of Otago. That is the original statement of the trust. Then, at pago 95, there is a statement of tiie application as presently followed out, "And the whole rents, issues, profits, and proceeds arising from the aforesaid piece or parcel of laud second hereinbefore described shall bo applied towards the erection and maintenance of a college or other educational institution in Dunedin, and until so applied shall be invested iv real or Government securities for accumulation in name of tbo Superintendent of the said province iv trust for tho aforesaid purpose." 7921. Professor Brown] AVhat does this occur in ? —lt is an Ordinance of the Provincial Council, dated sth July, 1801. It was assented to by Governor T. Gore Brown ou the 2nd August, 1801. 7922. Professor Shand.] You say that a proposal is now under consideration for endowing out of the educational one-third a chair not in the University of Otago, but in the Theological College. AVhen is this proposal likely to come up for decision ?—lt comes up for settlement at the first meeting of Synod in January next. "7923. Is it your opinion that that would be a legal application of the funds, under the present Act ? —Yes ; that is my opinion, whatever may be the value of it. 7924. Professor Cook.] Do you know of auy other proposition having been made for the application of those funds ?—The position in which the proposition is at present, is exactly shown by citing the * The witness wishes to add: "Section Vi states that the Professor appointed shall bo 'removable by the said trustees, with the concurrence of the said Synod;' and the htle Attorney-Gtaieral publicly stated that it was therefore illegal for the Council of Otago University to accept of a chair endowed under this trust; so that tho chair must be erected iv a college or University where this requirement can bo given effect to."—Sec. K. Com.

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interim Act which has been adopted, which is now being sent down to the kirk sessions, which will be returned to the Synod at its next meeting in January, and the settlement of which will determine the application. The Synod adopted the following regulations as an interim Act —that is to say, " (1) The regulations adopted by the Synod on the 16th January, 1879, are hereby rescinded ; and in lieu thereof the Synod make, pass, and adopt the following regulations as an interim Act: that is to say, (2) It shall be lawful for the said Board to pay, out of the educational fund referred to in the said Act, to any Professor of Moral Philosophy and Political Economy, or such other professor as shall be duly appointed by this said Board to a chair in any college or University in the Province of Otago, with the concurrence of this Synod, as provided by section 12 of the said Act, the sum of £600 yearly, or such other sum as the Synod may from time to time determine, as salary and incidental expenses, so long as such professor shall continue to occupy such chair." 7925. Professor Shand.] Supposing the Synod adopted your view, that it is competent for them to endow a chair in the Theological College with this fund, and the Church Property Board took up the position that this fund could ouly be applied to the endow*ment of a chair in some legally-constituted college or University, what do you think would bo the result of that conflict ? —I cannot say. I suppose, if the Synod insisted upon carrying out its legal powers, it would simply apply for legal authority to constrain the trustees to fulfil their duties —namely, to act according to the regulation legally made by the Synod. 7920. Allow me to call your attention to clause 12 of " The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 1866," which says, "All professors to any literary chair as aforesaid, endowed in the whole, or to the extent of two-thirds of such endowment, from the said ' education fund,' shall be appointed and removable by the said trustees, with the concurrence of the said Synod." Docs it not follow from that that the trustees must concur iv any action of the Synod ? —They must concur in the appointment of the particular professor. That is all. 7927. They must not only concur, I think, but they must also appoint ?—Yes ; they must appoint. But what I meant just now was, that tbeir concurrence is limited to the appointment of a particular professor, and not to the selection of the subject. " Concurrence," in this section, refers to their having a say in the appoiutment of the professor; but not, as I think you indicated before, to tbeir having a say in the selection of the subject. 7928. At all events, if tho trustees should be of opinion that the Synod is acting illegally, could they be compelled, under the present Act, to appoint any one ?—AVell, that is a legal question, upon which I do not feel in a position to give an opinion. 7929. But you seem to be decidedly of opinion that, notwithstanding the settlement of 1866, which I understand was a compromise, it is still within tho discretion of the Synod to apply the educational one-third to theological or ecclesiastical purposes?— No. 7930. AVould not the foundation of a literary chair in a Theological College be applying the fund to ecclesiastical purposes ? —lt is simply a college. The Act regulating the college fund does not define it as a Theological College. The Act simply defines it as a college, not as a Theological College. It says, " Towards the erection and maintenance of a college, or other educational institution iv Dunedin." 7931. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Has the Church Property Board any control over this college fund of which you are now speaking? —No. "The Dunedin Church Lands Ordinance, 1801," says all the rents, &c, " shall be paid to the treasurer for the time being of the aforesaid Presbyterian Church of Otago; and the clear proceeds, after deduction of the costs of collection and other necessary expenses, shall and may from time to time be applied by the said Presbyterian Church of Otago." Now, tbat is the Synod, and not the trustees. The treasurer who receives the income is treasurer for the Presbyterian Church, and acts under tho control of the Synod as such. 7932. Professor Shand.] Do you think tho words " erection aud maintenance of a college or other educational institution in Dunedin" can be made to cover tho Presbyterian Theological College? Do not those words mean " an institution for general education" ?—The Act only says, " a college or other educational institution," and our College fairly comes under that designation. 7933. Do you consider it is an educational institution in the ordinary acceptation of those words ? —I consider it comes fairly under the terms of tho Act —"a college or other educational institution." 7934. Bey. W. J. Habeas.] Our commission requires that we should consider aud report upon the condition, value, and application of all endowments made out of the public estate for the promotion of education. Inquiries have been made iv regard to all such endowments of which the Commission was aware, aud I, as Secretary to tho Commission, have now, for the first time, become aware of the existence of this endowment made out of the public estate for the promotion of education. AVould you be so good as to supply us with a statement of its condition, value, and application? —The only means of information which are open to me, as a member of the Synod, is a statement as to the yearly value, contained in the treasurer's published accounts submitted to the last meeting of Synod. The rents from tho college fund are there stated at £902 7s. I presume that is for a year. 7935. Can you tell me the proper person to apply to for this information ?—The general trustees, who are legally termed the Presbyterian Church Board of Property. 7936. But they have stated that they have no property that originates in Crown grants. I have applied to them more than once for such information. Am Ito understand that, as Moderator of the Synod, you have no knowledge of the condition, value, and application of this endowment, beyond that which is contained in the published statements accessible to the public?— Yes. The application necessarily comes under our review as a Synod, but the condition and value are entirely in the knowledge of the general trustees. 7937. Are the general trustees the proper authorities to give the information ?—Yes. They take the whole management of the Church estate in respect to receiving money, attending to tho leasing, and everything of that sort. They attend to the whole business management of the property, and they do so under regulations framed by the Synod in a legal manner. 7938. Do you know if the legal estate vests in the trustees ? —I believe it does. In a previous answer I stated what was reported in 1879 to be the rents from the college endowment, "namely,

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£902 7s. I was not certain whether that was for twelve months exactly. In the report contained in the proceedings of 1878, I find it stated that the rents from tho endowment were £781 18s.; interest ou debentures and deposit, £68 165.: in all, £850 14s. 7939. Professor Brown.] How has this money been applied during the last two years ? —ln the erection and maintenance of a college. 7940. Professor Sale.] AVhen did this college come into existence ? —AVhen we made our first appointment of a professor. 7941. When was that ? —AVhen Professor Salmond was appointed, in 1875. I find that, in January, 1870, the announcement was made, in a report to the Synod, that letters bad been received announcing tho selection and appointment to the Professorship of Theology, of the Rev. AVilliam Salmond. 7912. AVhere is the college building ?—There is only a site purchased for it; and a house upon the site is used as a residence for the professor. 7943. Then there is no college building at present?— There is no special college building. AYe bave not got one erected. A proposal is at present under consideration for tbat purpose. It was brought before last Synod. 7944. AVhere is the site for the building? —In Leith Street, Dunedin, opposite the Otago University building. There is half an acre, purchased out of the fuud, for the purpose. 7945. How many students aro at present attending the College ?—I think there are three or four. 7946. How many were there last year? —I think there were two. The report of the Theological College Committee, 1879, given to the Synod at its last meeting, does not state the attendance. It only says, "Your Committee have to report that Professor Salmond and the Rev. Mr. AVatt (tutor of biblical criticism) carried on their classes during the usual winter session." I thiuk there were ouly two or three students. 7947. Professor Shand.] Is their instruction only in theology?— Yes. The Rev. Mr. Salmond is Professor of Systematic and Pastoral Theology. 7948. In your opinion, would it be for the public advantage that the educational one-third should be applied to the erection of chairs in the Theological College, rather than in the University of Otago? —It is not a Theological College. Although tbe Committee is called tbe Theological College Committee, it is simply a college at present used only in respect to its theological department. As to your question respecting public advantage, I consider that, under preseut circumstances, it would be greatly to the public advantage so to use it. 7949. AVill you state the grounds of your opinion?—l hope you will understand that lam only giving my own personal opinion. I cannot speak for the Synod or any one else. The ground of my own personal opinion in giving that answer is this : The Synod made, as I consider it did, a wise selection of the subject for a new chair; and when the University Council declined to receive such new chair, I think it will bo for the public advantage that such a chair should be instituted in the manner in which the Synod desires it to bo. 7950. AVhat was the chair that the Synod desired to establish ? —A chair of moral philosophy and political economy. 7951. On what grounds did tho Synod come to the conclusion that this would be the most desirable chair to erect ? —I cannot speak for tbe whole Synod. Probably different members would have their own views, aud the views of the Syuod as such are not presented in any formal document, as far as I can remember. 7952. AYe have heard in evidence that fhe University Council wished to have a chair of English language and literature endowed ? —Yes. That was brought to the knowledge of the Synod. 7953. Is it your opinion that a chair of moral philosophy in the Theological College ?— No; in tbe College. 795-4. AVell, the Presbyterian College. I call it the Theological College, because it is nothing else. Aro you of opinion that a chair of moral philosophy iv the Theological College would be of greater advantage than a chair of English language and literature in the University of Otago?— Yes —a chair of moral philosophy and political economy. 7955 Do you think it would be taken advantage of by a greater number of students, or on what ground would it be more for the public advantage? —I have my own personal views on the matter, but Ido not know whether they are of any importance to the Commission. In the first place, I think political economy deserves, at the present time, a larger share of attentiou than can be given to it fairly by a professor who is charged with the teaching of mental and moral science. That is one specific ground. 7956. Are you aware, in making that statement, that political economy is already taught three hours per week in the University ?—Ves; lam quite aware of that. I have mentioned one strong ground. Then, another ground why moral philosophy should be connected with it is, that it has been and still is generally recognized tbat, where the two subjects are taught, aud there is not a separate professor for each, moral philosoj.hy should be taught in connection with political economy, rather than in connection with mental science. On that point, I could quote a number of authorities. 7957. That is hardly an answer to my question. My question is rather this, whether the establishment of a chair for these subjects in what may be called a private institution, would be of greater public advautage than the endowment of a chair in the Otago University, which is a public institution?— But the College would be equally public, inasmuch as its classes would be open to all students, the same as the University of Otago. 7958. Is it not an institution intended for the training of students of theology for the Presbyterian Church ? —The theological course is, but tbis chair would be open for all literary students. 7959. Professor Sale.] Have you had any students who were not training with a view to the clerical profession in connection with the Presbyterian Church ? —No; because we have had only the means of training in connection with theology. AYe have sent all our students who are going ou for the Church, to acquire their literary training at the University of Otago ; so that we have never taken in hand any literary training of students, since the University of Otago was instituted.

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July 7, 1879.

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7960. But, now that you have come to a deadlock with the University of Otago, do you think it is time to begin to set up literary work yourselves ? —Yes ; in tbat particular chair. 7901. Professor Shand.] Do you think it is likely that persons other than students of theology for the Presbyterian Church, will attend classes in this Presbyterian institution ? —Yes ; I think so, if the proper man is put in as professor. 7962. Then is it your opinion that the Synod, in making this selection, was actuated by consideration for the interests of the public, and not by consideration for the interests of their own theological students? —I think the Synod took into consideration the interests of the whole public, who were likely to be benefited by the advancement of education. 7963. Professor Cook.] Did the Synod make an offer, in the first instance, to endow this chair in the Otago University ? —Yes. 7904. With what result ?—lt was declined. 7965. On what ground was it declined ? —Here is a copy of a resolution enclosed in a letter to our clerk, which sets forth certain grounds on which they declined to receive our chair : " The Council, having already appointed a Professor of Mental and Moral Philosophy and Political Economy, at the request of the trustees under 'The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 1806,' by whom the professor was nominated, and, further, being advised by the Professorial Board that the arrangements for teaching those branches are sufficient, consider it inexpedient to appoint a second professor to teach the same subjects in the University, and accordingly respectfully decline the proposal now made by the Synod." 7966. And was it then that the Synod considered the proposal of appointing a professor to that chair in tho Presbyteriau Theological College?— Yes; in the Presbyterian College. 7967. Professor Shand.] Then, was not the offer of the Synod declined on the ground that the subject was already represented in the Otago University, by a professor appointed by tbe trustees themselves ? —That is the ostensible ground stated in their resolution ; but we consider it is not a correct statement of facts. 7908. Is it not a fact that those subjects are taught in the Otago University by the professor appointed by the Church trustees, or nominated by them and accepted by the University Council?— The error lies in this : the resolution would lead ono to conclude that the Professor of Political Economy, or the professor charged with teaching mental and moral philosophy and political economy, had been appointed at the request of the Synod. But the Synod simply endowed the chair of mental and moral philosophy. It was not the purpose of the Synod that one professor should be held sufficient for overtaking the whole of those subjects. He was appointed simply as Professor of Mental and Moral Philosophy. 7969. Professor Cook.] Are you aware whether that professor is more overworked at the present time, when charged with all those subjects, than other members of the professorial staff ? —That is a matter on which we have no data for giving an opinion that is at all reliable, inasmuch as I do not consider the work of a professor is to be estimated simply by the number of hours in which he is dealing with bis students. I consider, further, iv respect to that question, that those three subjects, and the cognate subjects usually taken along with them, are far too much for any single man to deal with efficiently. 7970. Do you consider that a professor who had to teach Greek language and literature, Latin language and literature, and English language and literature, would be overworked ? —I would consider that he had too much to do also. 7971. I suppose it would be the object of the Presbyterian body, if it were working cordially with the University Couucil, to give help in the shape of chairs which were most needed ? —Yes; but that would not be their exclusive consideration, because they would look at the permanent purposes to be served; and one special consideration that would render that of less account iv the eyes of the Synod would be this, that the University Council are likely fo have large and increasing funds, and are likely to be able to supply additional professors to relieve those who may have too much work at present ; whereas the Synod, having only a very limited fund to deal with, and not being likely to erect another chair for a very long time —perhaps never—would look at some considerations which they might deem to be of the highest permanent importance. 7972. Can you tell us what those considerations are likely to be?— The nature of tho subjects themselves. The nature of the subjects of moral philosophy and political economy appeared to the Synod—or, at least, to the majority —to bo of such permanent importance to the country at large, that it was desirable to secure a professor who should be charged specially wiih those subjects. 7973. Do you think tbe subject of English language and literature is not, in the opinion of the Synod, of permanent importance ?—ln comparison with those other subjects, it certainly is not. Of course, I must not be held as speaking for the Synod, because a number of our members would have preferred to take a chair of English language and literature, and they moved in that direction; so that the matter was fully discussed iv the Synod. 7974. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you think that the Synod would be likely to consider that, as this fund is administered by a religious body, it is natural that it should look after the interests of those subjects cognato witb theology, though belonging to literature, which are more likely than other subjects of a literary kind to be neglected unless the Synod looks after them?— Probably aud naturally the Synod would, livery body would look after the subjects cognate to itself. 7975. Profssor Shand.] Is it a fact that the Synod are dissatisfied with the teaching of the present Professor of Moral Philosophy ?—Some members of the Synod are, but the Synod has never given an opinion upon that subject. 7976. Has the matter been discussed in tbe Synod ? —The matter was brought before the Synod. It happened to be at a private meeting; but I do not think I am violating any confidence in stating the fact, all tho more as it has been misrepresented abroad. To this extent and in this form, that matter has been brought formally before the Synod : a motion was tabled, that the Synod should rescind its present regulation, which binds its own Church students to attend tbe moral philosophy chair in the University. That motion was tabled, and that motion was not seconded.

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7977. In your opinion was the Synod actuated, in making this proposal, by a desire to control the j teaching of moral philosophy in the Otago University —I mean by a desire to put what might bo considered a safe man ia that position ? —ln which proposal ? 7978. In the proposal to establish a chair of moral philosophy and political economy?— Some members might think so; and, I have no doubt, did think so. The Synod itself, however, gave no opinion. 7979. Professor Cook.] In view of the question put by Mr. Habens just now—referring fo the probability that an ecclesiastical body would, in the selection of chairs, prefer to endow chairs which were more intimately connected with theological studies than with others—do you not think that a chair of Greek, for example, would have answered all the requirements mentioned by Mr. Habens. Do you not think the Synod would have acted wisely in endowing a chair of Greek instead of moral philosophy? —The Synod considered that Greek was already taught; and then they had in view the consideration I have already referred to, as to the University Council having funds in course of time, to enable them to relieve any professors who have too much work. 7930. But would not a chair of Greek have met the view which Mr. Habens suggested, a3 well as a chair of moral philosophy ?—lt does, in one sense, as being a useful subject. 7951. And cognate to theology? —It would certainly be useful for literary training, and also for theology. 7982. AVas the subject of establishing a chair of Greek considered ? —No. It was not considered. There was no motion submitted on that point. 7983. Do you not think tbat might have helped the University of Otago much more than a chair of moral philosophy ? —No, Ido not think so. It would have relieved the Professor of Greek, so far ; but, looking at the University as a whole, I consider that the chair which the Synod desired to found would conduce to the interests of the University more than a chair specifically for Greek. 7954. Did the S}*nod consider the alternative chair recommended by tbe Professorial Board of the University—namely, a chair of physical science ?—There was no motion made regarding that subject. 7955. Then it was not considered at all ? —No member formally proposed it; and iv that sense it was not considered; but I have no doubt it was considered in discussing other motions. There w*ere two propositions —one for English language and literature, and the other for moral philosophy and political economy. Iv considering those propositions, probably enough references were made to other subjects ; but there was no formal motion placed before the Synod, proposing that a chair of physical science should be taken. * 7986. Professor Sale.] AVas there before the Synod a letter written by the Chairman of the Professorial Board, aud addressed to the Council of the University of Otago, on the subject? —That letter was laid before the Synod at its meeting iv January last. 7957. Was that letter thoroughly considered by the Synod ?—lt was pretty fully discussed, and a good many remarks were passed upon it by different speakers. 7988. Do you remember what were the recommendations contained in that letter?—l remember physical science occurring in the letter ; and, to the best of my recollection, it supported the chair of English literature. 7959. AVas it not English literature in the first instance, and physical science in the second ?—I think so. 7990. Professor Cook.] Did the Synod take no account of the fact that in the Otago University, at present, no provision whatever is made for teaching physical science ? —lt was not so stated. Personally, as a member of the Synod, I understood that that subject was connected with the chair of mathematics. 7991. Do you think it possible for a man to teach mathematics and physical science too ? —I may be wrong, but I have the impression that the chair of mathematics is also charged with the teaching of physical science. 7992. Do you think it is humanly possible that any man could teach those two subjects ?—I think it is far too much. 7993. Did you ever know a case where the two subjects were joined ? —I cannot recollect any University in which the same professor had charge of the two subjects; neither cau I recollect the fact of the same professor in any old University having to teach Greek, Latin, and English literature; nor yet do I recollect any professor in the old Universities having to teach mental and moral philosophy and political economy. 7994. Having before you the amount of work to be done by the other professors—one who takes Greek, Latin, aud English language and literature, a second who is supposed to teach mathematics in all its branches and physical science, and a third who takes mental and moral philosophy and logic— are you still of opinion that, in view of the amount of work they have to do, it is necessary in the first instance, in the interests of education, to relievo the professor who teaches mental and moral philosophy and logic ?—Not solely on the ground of relieving the professor. That is putting the grounds of our preference in a very limited form. If we were to restrict our attention simply to the consideration which professor should be soonest relieved, we might come to some different opinion. But, on the grounds which I indicated some time ago —and which included other things besides that—we considered that it was most desirable, in the interests of the University and the country, that we should choose a professor of moral philosophy and political economy. 7995. Professor Brown.] You have stated that mental science and moral philosophy were the two subjects of the chair already founded by you in the University. Am I to understand that political economy is taught voluntarily ? —Political economy is taught, I believe, under the authority of the Council ; and I may also add that the Synod requested, as a temporary arrangement, that instruction should be given in that subject, over and above the proper subjects of the chair. The Synod had in view the likelihood of a political economy chair being erected ; but, as there was none, they requested that the Professor of Mental and Moral Philosophy might give instruction in that subject. * Ihe witness wishes to add the following words: " Such a proposal was made ia the Synod a year before."—S.eo. R. Cojt,

Rev. J. Copland.

July 7, 1879.

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7996. Then the Synod did think that those three subjects could bo taught by one man ?—They only thought that, as a temporary arrangement, and until a professor of political economy was appointed, such instruction should be given. I believe there was some request of that nature. The professor was appointed and endowed simply as Professor of Mental and Moral Philosophy ; but the Council, I believe, have appointed him Professor of Mental and Moral Philosophy and Political Economy. 7997. So that they went beyond the instruction of tho Synod ? —They went beyond the endowment of the chair. The request of the trustees, or the committee of the Synod, or tbe Synod itself, was that in the meantime the professor might give some instruction in political economy; but it was never designed as a permanent arrangement. 7998. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know if there are any other properties, originating in Crown grant, that are devoted to education iv connection with the Presbyterian body, in addition to those which have been named?— These are the only educational funds that we have : the educational fund proper —that is, one-third of the general trust estate —and then the college fund. AYe can endow, or partially endow, theological professorships out of our ecclesiastical fund. That is all we have for educational purposes.

July 7, 1879.

Tuesday, Bth July, 1879. Pj-ESENT : . Professor Brown in the chair. Professor Cook, Rev. AY. E. Mulgan, Mr. Cutten, Professor Sale, Rev. AY. J. Habens (Secretary), Professor Ulrich. Dr. Macdonald, Mr. Robert Stout was sworn and examined. 7999. Professor Brown.] You have been, I believe, a member of the House of Representatives for Dunedin ?—Yes. 8000. In that position have you become acquainted with the relations of the Church Property Trust to the University of Otago ? —Yes. I can state them shortly. Of course I have gathered from reading, as one can only gather, the position in which the Church Property Trust and the University of Otago stand. 8001. Can you give us a brief account of the matter ? —The position is this : AVhen New Zealand was colonized, the New Zealand Company entered into arrangements with certain associations in order to bring out settlers to the colony. Those associations, in tho two instances, at least, of Otago aud Canterbury, were connected with a Church. The Otago Settlement was commenced under the auspices of an association which was connected with tho Free Church of Scotland. One of tho terms on which the association undertook to settle people in Otago, and on which people who settled in Otago bought their properties, was tbat a certain proportion of land, or a certain proportion of the funds obtained by the Company being invested in land, should be set aside for religious and educational purposes, or, as it was called, for religious and educational uses. Properties were thus obtained, and a list of them will be found in " The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 1806." The Free Church of Scotland, as it was then called, settled here, but after a while that Church ceased to undertake educational work, confining itself purely to religious work. The Provincial Government was then in existence, and undertook educational work. The New Zealand Company ceased to carry on its work, the association also ceased, and the question was then raised : Seeing that the Church is not now conducting educational affairs, ought the Church to continue to enjoy the benefit of tbe whole of the laud which was given partly for education and partly for religious purposes? Iv consequence of an agitation which then took place in Otago, the matter was referred to a Select Committee of the Provincial Council in 1800. They considered the matter and reported. Their report will be found in the Appendix to the Votes and Proceedings of the Otago Provincial Council, Session IX., 1860, p. 20. Mr. T. B. Gillies (now Judge Gillies) was Chairman, and the rest of the members of the Committee were : the late Sir John Richardson, Mr. T. Dick, the late Mr. James Howorth, and the late Dr. Purdie. This Committee recommended that a Commission should bo appointed by the Council to still further investigate the subject, and communicate with the trustees. They also stated that, seeing the province was now undertaking education, they thought that some portion of the trust property ought to be made available for the cause of education generally, and they thought that was the true way of carrying out the original trust. Nothing w*as done as to appointing a Commission for many years. The matter was debated in the Provincial Council, but it was not until the end of 1865 or the beginning of 1866 that a Commission was appointed, consisting of Mr. Reynolds (now one of the trustees), Mr. R. B. Martin, and the Hon. 11. J. Miller, M.L.C. They reported, and practically said that tho Provincial Government had no right to interfere with the trust at all. They stated, however, that they understood the trustees were willing that a part of the property —one-third or one-fourth —should be applied to higher education —for a college in Dunedin. This Commission's report was not, however, laid before the Provincial Council until it was too late to take any action upon it. Tho Council met twice a year, and when it mot in spring the report of the Commission was of no use, because the General Assembly had dealt with the matter iv the Act of 1866. That Act provided that two-thirds should bo applied to religious uses, and tbat the income from the remaining one-third, called the educational fund, should bo applied to the endowment of a literary chair or chairs in connection with some college or University in Duuedin. This took place in 1806, but the Otago University was not incorporated until 1569. It was because there was a conflict between " The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 1866," and the Otago University Ordinance of 1869, that I introduced a Bill into the General Assembly last session. I. introduced that Bill in order to do away with the conflict, which is this: The Act of 1566 provides that the appointment and removal of the professor, and also practically the fixing of tho subject, is to devolve upou the trustees, acting, no doubt, under tho direotion of the Synod of the Presbyterian Church ; while, under " The

Mr. E. Stout.

July 8, 1879.

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Otago University Ordinance, 1869," the Council of the University has no power to receive as one of its professors any one who is not under their sole power as to appointment and discharge. Therefore I submitted that the University Council could not take advantage of the Presbyterian Church endowment, nor could the Presbyterian Church trustees give up their powers to the University Council to fill the chair in any way they pleased. My Bill, however, was not passed. It was first thrown out by the Committee of Selection ou the technical point that it was a private Bill. The House, however, voted that it was not a private Bill; but it was then too late in the session to proceed with it. Since then, the Synod wished a certain chair to be created in connection with the University, and the University Council, thinking that such a chair was not wanted, refused to accept it. Therefore the Synod of the Presbyterian Church passed what is termed an interim Act. Under their Act they must so proceed. This interim Act authorizes the trustees to endow a chair connected with some college, not necessarily the Otago University. This interim Act cannot be ratified, and will not be finally law, until the Synod meets in January next, and no doubt the matter may be discussed again. According to the present statute, the literary chair or chairs to be established by the Synod need not necessarily be connected with the Otago University, but may be connected with any college that the Synod chooses to create, or chooses to give the literary chair or chairs to. I wish to see that put an end to for this reason : it seems to me that the fund or trust property was originally given for the whole people of the province ; and, as the trustees wero willing in 1866 that the fund should be applied to purely literary purposes in connection with some college, it appears that the meaning of those who passed the law was, that the chairs should be established in some college not necessarily connected with any Church. The present attitude of a majority of the Synod appears to be, that they will take the one-third supposed to go for purely literary purposes, and apply it to such literary purposes as will best suit thepromulgat;on of their own doctrines. I think the Assembly ought to pass a law to stop that, because it is, in my opinion, a violation of the trust. 8002. Mr. Cutten.] Do you think the Act binds them to take any particular college ? —Any college in Otago. 8003. Professor Brown.] I suppose that, legally, they can establish a chair in a college different from the University of Otago ? —I think they can; although I think that is only taking the Act literally. Taking the spirit of the enactment, and what was understood at the time, Ido not think that that was at all meant. 8004. Professor Sale.] Do you know whether, in the original foundation of the Otago Settlement, it was contemplated to found a college or University ?—AVell, that was spoken of by the people who were members of the association. 8005. AVas it ever contemplated to found more than one college or University ? —I do not think so. I think it was intended to have a college, in addition to the high schools. My point is this : In England, whenever a person is left by will a sum of money or property for any special purpose, and it is found that that special purpose cannot be given effect to, the Courts of law, independently of the Legislature altogether, always act on this principle—what is called the cypres doctrine: they will carry out the testator's intention as far as possible ; they will say that the money or property is to be applied to a purpose which comes as near as possible to the testator's desire. It was practically on tbat principle that the Select Committee of the Provincial Council acted, when they recommended that part of the money should be applied to educational purposes. The trustees were willing to do that; and the fund was then said to be for educational purposes, as distinguished from theological purposes ; hence it was to be devoted to the establishment of a literary chair or chairs. The Synod now seems to wish to make the chairs subservient to their theological doctrines. SOO6. Professor Brown.] You have stated that the provisions of the Act of 1806, and those of "The Otago University Ordinance, 1869," conflicted. Can you explain how a previous appointment was made ? —I do not know how the previous appointment was made. However, I can say this: If the Act and the Ordinance had both been carried out, the appointment could not have been made. 8007. Another statement you made was, that the appointmeut was with the Church trustees; and not only the appointment, but also practically the fixing of the subject of the chair. Is that the case ? —No doubt tho trustees are not bound to endow any chair the University Council chooses to fix on. The trustees have to fix what the literary chair shall be. 800 S. AYe had it in evidence yesterday, from the Rev. Dr. Copland, that tho Synod alone had the decision as to the subject of the chair, and not the trustees. Is that the case ?—I do not remember the exact words of the Act, but they practically mean this: the Synod can say they will pass an interim Act; and if they pass an interim Act, it seems to me the trustees will be bound to accept what the Synod say. 8009. So you correct what you have said ? —The trustees have the power. All the Synod can do is to pass a regulation for the guidance of the trustees ; and if the Synod does not pass a regulation, the trustees can act. No doubt the Synod has the controlling power. If the Synod pass a regulation that no chair shall be endow*ed except so-and-so, I do not think the trustees can dispute it. 8010. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Your objection to the present state of things is not merely that it renders a deadlock possible, but that it involves a deadlock, if the strict provisions of the law are carried out ?—Yes ; it involves a deadlock between the University, the trustees, and the Synod. SOU. By what means do you propose to get rid of that inherent defect ? —I propose that the appointment and removal of professors should rest solely with the Council cf the University; because Ido not believe in the professors having two masters. Practically it amounts to that at present: the trustees are masters, and also the University Council. 8012. But is it not actually the state of affairs now, that no one can appoint a professor in the University of Otago but the Council of the University ? —Yes ; that is what I say : that is the law now. I propose, as to the selection of the subject, that if the trustees and the Synod on the one side, and the University on the other, cannot agree, then the Governor in Council shall determine. That is my remedy. 8013. Mr. Cutten.] Then you propose to bind the Synod ?—Yes ; to give the chair to the University of Otago. 51— H. 1.

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July 8, 1879.

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8014. Professor Bale.~\ Is there anything in the Act of 1866 to determine what is meant by the words, " any college or University " ? —N"o ; there was none established then. 8015. Were any contemplated ? —The matter had been talked about for years before 1866. From the very first it was always held that there was to be a University in Otago. 1 heard of it before coming to Otago. 8016. Rev. W. J. Halens.~\ From what you know of the history of the settlement, do you suppose that the University which would be contemplated by the early settlers would be a University in which there would probably be a faculty of theology, or would it be entirely a secular institution ? —I have no doubt they would think that there should be a faculty of theology in the University. I have no doubt they would think that it should be similar to Edinburgh University. That is the pattern. 8017.' Professor Cooled] The Bill which you introduced having fallen through, can you tell us whether any steps in the same direction will be taken this session ? —I have heard that one member will take it up ; but I am not sure whether he will or not. 8018. Rev. W. J. HabensP\ Did you not say that, in your opinion, the application of this money to the erection and maintenance of a chair in such a college as it is now proposed to be devoted to, may be in accord with the letter of the Act of 1866, but is not in accord with the spirit of the Act ?—Yes. The reason I give is this: In the Act itself there was due provision made for what I may term ecclesiastical or theological education. The literary chair or chairs spoken of were to be purely for secular purposes. In the Act it will be seen that a certain fund is set apart for educational purposes — that is, for endowing a college. It says in effect, " Two-thirds of the clear proceeds of the land shall each year be applied by the trustees, in accordance with regulations passed by the Synod, solely for the purpose of building or repairing manses and churches, and endowing or aiding in the endowment of any theological chair or chairs in connection with the Presbyterian Church in any college or University, or any or either of such purposes, according to the said regulations, and shall be called the ecclesiastical fund." Hence part of the proceeds was to go to purely ecclesiastical purposes; and the remaining one-third part was to form an educational fund, to be devoted purely to literary purposes. Therefore I submit that the meaning was, that the literary purpose was not to be a theological purpose, nor yet to be used for purposes of theology. 8019. Rev. W. J. Hahens.~\ Docs the argument which you use to establish your position, that this one-third is not applicable to the endowment of a chair in any denominational institution, apply, in your opinion, to another endowment made by the Dunedin Church Lauds Ordinance ? —That is what is called the college site. I have not looked into that Ordinance for a long while ; but I understand, from memory, that the college was to be in connection with the Church, for the purpose, I presume, of training ministers; and I believe that is the purpose for which it has been used. The words are very general. On the face of the Ordinance it could be held to apply to any college. 8019 a. I observe the words in this Church Lands Ordinance are, " towards the erection and maintenance of a college or other educational institution in Dunedin."—That is so. 8020. Do you see any reason to maintain that the Presbyterian Church authorities are misapplying this trust in using it for a denominational college ?—I do not think so, if their institution can be called a college or educational institution. Ido not think it could be said to be not a college because it is for training ministers, and is not secular. 8021. Referring again to your argument with regard to the one-third which is devoted to the establishment of literary- chairs; you would not hold that the proposed application of the money was at variance with the mere words in the 9th clause: " the endowment of a literary chair or chairs in any college or University in the Province of Otago"? You would not hold that the fault consists iv not paying proper respect to the meaning of those words? —I look at it in this way: The Act of 1866 contemplated, I submit, a college for general purposes —not merely for training theological students. That is plain from the fact that there is due provision made for what may be termed theological chairs ; and the very fact of having literary chairs in addition showed that it contemplated that this University was to have a theological faculty, and an arts course as well. And if it contemplated those two things —viz., a theological faculty and an arts course —then the literary chairs were for the arts course, and, being for the arts course, ought not to be under the dominion or power in any way of any theological body, but ought to be devoted to purely secular purposes. That, I submit, was the meaning of the Act. It was never intended that the one-third was to be applied simply to aid a theological college, which could never have an arts course ; and I believe that if the trustees or the Synod apply the money in that way, they will be misapplying their trust. 8022. Professor liroicn.] Suppose that the University of Otago were in the hands of a denomination, or had a theological faculty in connection with a denomination, would it then be contrary to the spirit of the Act to apply this fund to the founding of chairs in the University of Otago ? —Then, I think, it would be within the meaning of the Act; or suppose that a private person established a University in Otago, as has been done in America, with a theological side or faculty and literary chairs, the Synod, no doubt, could give literary chairs to that institution. They would not be bound to give the chairs to the institution at present existing. I admit that. 8023. Does not the Synod intend to make this college of the wide character that they speak of ? — I can only judge from the reported debates of the Synod, when they wished to have a chair established for teaching political economy and moral philosophy. The best test is : Why was this chair proposed, seeing that there is at present a Professor of Mental and Moral Science ? I think that the majority of those who voted for this chair of moral philosophy believe that the present occupant of the chair does not teach, moral philosophy according to the Westminster Confession, if there is such a thing as philosophy according to it. They believe that teaching iv a literary chair should be subservient to the dogmas of their particular Church. Otherwise I believe they would have at once agreed with the University Council in endowing a different chair. Therefore, I look upon it that, while providing in one sense for a literary chair, they are practically obtaining, under the guise of a Professor of Moral Philosophy, a teacher of theology. That I consider to be a breach of their trust.

Mr. M. Stout.

July 8, 1879.

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Mr. AVilliam Macdonald, M.A., LL.D., was re-examined. 8024. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] AVhat proportion, of the pupils being educated at the High School was derived from the primary schools ? —Of the 184 pupils in the High School during the first two quarters of the present session, 110 at one time or other—for a shorter or longer period—were in the primary schools. 8025. How do you find these pupils to have been prepared ?—Speaking generally, they were very well prepared in the subjects they profess, and some of these pupils are the most distinguished boys in the High School. The only difficulty in organization arises from the fact that a number of these pupils come up at late stages in our curriculum. They have no knowledge of Latin ; but they express a desire to learn Latin. This interferes very much with the regular organization of the school. AYe meet that difficulty partly by arranging the time-table so that a higher and a lower class take Latin at the same time, and the boys of the higher class join the lower class for Latin alone. AYe also meet it by doing special work in Latin with the boys who are behind, as often as we can spare masters for the purpose. 8020. AVhich division of the year do you think desirable—into quarters or into, say, three terms ?— At Home, in the school w*ith which I was connected, we finally settled down to an arrangement of the session as follows: The session began on the lst of October, and extended to the end of July. Our holidays occurred about Christmas —a fortnight —and at the end of April —ten days or a fortnight. I think that that is a good arrangement; and, so far as my experience in New Zealand goes, I should be disposed to suggest a session extending from the middle of February to the middle of December, with a break of, say, ten days in May, and a similar break in September. Ido not think that the breaks should be longer than ten days, either in May or September. 8027. Bey. W. J. Habens.] On what ground do you propose such short holidays in May and September ?—Because I attach very great importance to a long holiday at midsummer. My experience is, that the best way to preserve the health, both of the pupils and of the teachers, is to have a good, solid holiday at the best season of the year. AVhilst I recognize that these breaks are very necessary, I think that no break should be longer than ten days. My experience leads me to say so. If they were made longer they would, in my judgment, interfere with what may be called the unity of the work of the session. 8028. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Is Greek taught in your school? —At the present moment it is taught to three boys—one in the fourth, one in the fifth, and one in the sixth class. They are taught at odd hours, just as opportunity offers. AYe have no class-instruction iv Greek in the High School at this moment. 8029. Bey. W. J. Habens.] In what part of the school do you begin the teaching of Latin ? —ln the second class of the lower school. 8030. Bey. W. __. Mulgan.] Have you any division of the school into a modern and a classical side ?—-AVe have. In the upper classes of the school, when boys are sent to us with a request' that they should not study Latin, we have made arrangements by which they study more fully what are generally called modern subjects. For example, at the present moment there are in the upper fourth class twenty-five boys, of whom nineteen learn Latin, and six do not. The seven hours per week which the nineteen Latin boys devote to that study, are employed by the non-Latin boys thus: three hours, German ; two hours, science ; and two hours, additional instruction in mathematics. 8031. Bey. W. J. Habens.] AVhat arrangements have you for giving instruction during those seven hours ?—The programme is so arranged that the German-master is free to take these boys for three hours for German; the science-master is also free; and the mathematical boys join the mathematical class. 8032. Do you think such a division would be applicable to, and advisable in, the grammar schools generally ? —I am strongly of that opinion. 8033. I understand you to say that the boys not doing Latin spend part of the time ordinarily devoted to Latin in doing mathematical work, and that they do this along with the mathematical class ? —Not along with the mathematical class, but with a mathematical class. For example, the boys in the fourth class who do not study Latin, join the boys in the fifth class at the hour at which the latter do mathematical work. 8034. Professor Cook.] Is not Greek the subject which usually differentiates the modern from the classical side of a school ? —ln the High School of Edinburgh, when we were introducing the modern side, Latin was the differentiating element; but, after the experience of some years, it was found that a modern side without Latin was not satisfactory, and we introduced Latin into the modern side. I regard Greek as the differentiating element. 8035. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Is it because education in this colony is upou a somewhat lower plane that Latin, rather than Greek, is the subject that differentiates ? —For me to say that education is on a lower plane here is perhaps expressing an opiniou where I have not had tho means of forming one. Within my experience, however, it is the fact that there is not the same demand in the schools of this colony, for the study of Greek, that there is in corresponding schools of the Old-Country. 8036. Professor Cook.] Suppose that Greek were made part of the ordinary school curriculum, as Latin is, do you not think that after a little while it would come, as a matter of course, to be looked on as Latin is ? —ln the High School, Dunediu, even Latin is not a compulsory subject. The boys are free to take or leave Latin, just as they are free to take or leave Greek. The fact that so many boys study Latin is due to the public here having a belief in the study of Latin which they do not seem to have acquired for, or have altogether lost in, the study of Greek. 8037. Professor Ulrich.] AVould you be in favour of Latin being made to a certain extent a compulsory subject, seeing that it is not compulsory ? —I should like to know this community a little better before saying anything about tbat. I must say that I was very much struck —and very agreeably struck —by the extent to which Latin is accepted by parents who send their boys to the High School at Dunedin. AVith respect to Greek, I do not think, with the facts of the case before me, that I should be disposed to agitate for the study of Greek by the boys who atteud the High School at the present moment.

Mr. Macdonald.

July 8,1879.

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Mr. Macdonald. BC3B. Rev. W. JE. Mulaan.] Do you think that the secondary schools should be inspected ? —1 k think so. With regard to the High School, for example, I should consider that half o£ the school — Julys, 18/9. that [ 9) the first, second, and lower third classes —ought to he inspected, and not examined—that is, not examined in writing. I think that the visit of a qualified inspector to the school in that way, casually, is beneficial; and, indeed, at that stage it is the only kind of examination that I regard as beneficial. "With regard to the upper part of the school, I think, for the satisfaction of the Board of Governors and the public, from time to time, that experts should visit the classes, for the purpose of making a more detailed examination of them. The upper part of the school should, I think, be visited and inspected by one who was familiar with the work done in the other secondary schools of the colony. He would be able to bring under the notice of the headmaster of each school the points in connection with the working of other schools which had struck him, and to consult with the headmasters as to the best methods to be followed in carrying on the schools. 8039. Rev. W. J. Habens.~\ Do you think it essential to proper inspection that the inspector should see the whole of the ordinary work of the school ? —Most undoubtedly. 8040. You said the inspector should not examine the lower school in writing. By that do you mean that he should examine orally ? —I meant simply this: that the Inspector should visit the school and see it going through its ordinary work; that he should strike in, take part in the work, and ask whatever he thought necessary to enable him to judge as to the state of the school. Ido not think that, for our lower school, written examination alone wouid be at all satisfactory. 8041. Rev. W. E. Mulgan.] But in the upper department you think that there should be written examination and oral examination ? —I think so. 8042. Rev. TV. J. Hahens.~\ And you think it would bo beneficial if all upper classes in the schools were inspected, by an inspector who was acquainted with the working of all the secondary schools ?—■ Yes ; for in New Zealand it is almost impracticable that the headmasters of the various public schools should carry out; the plan that has been followed in England for some years, of the headmasters of public schools meeting in annual conference. I think that if we had an inspector going from school to school in the way I have suggested, he would be able to present his observations to the various headmasters, as the accumulated experience of the headmasters in the colony. 8043. Do you think that such inspection would have a tendency to reduce the teaching in all the schools to an undesirable uniformity?—l think there would be danger of that evil arisin<*, if the inspection were conducted according to the hard-and-fast regulations of a code, and if results were tested wholly or mainly by individual examination. In the opinion of many eminent authorities on education, that has been the result of the present system of primary-scliool inspection at Home. Under the system of inspection, or, I might term it, assessorship, which I advocate, I do not think that any mischief could be done, while I am certain that much good would be effected. Dr. I. de Zouche. Dr. Isaiah de ZoiJCHE was sworn and examined. July 8,1879. 8044. Rev. W. U. Mulgan.] What is your connexion with the Dunedin Hospital staff? —I am honorary physician to the Hospital. 8045. Are you familiar with the correspondence which took place between the Hospital staff and the Medical School ? —I am. 8046. Can you state what fee the Hospital staff propose to require from the medical students ? — They propose, for hospital attendance, clinical medicine and surgery, and post-mortem examinations, a fee of ten guineas for the first year, and of five guineas for the second year. 5047. Is it to be supposed that that fee includes remuneration for clinical lecturers?—lt includes all —hospital attendance and clinical lectures as well. 8048. Are you aware that the University Council abolished clinical lecturers on the arrival of the Professor of Anatomy, and that no other lecturers could be recognized by Edinburgh?—l understood that the Hospital here was recognized by Edinburgh. That applies to a recognition of clinical instruction as well. 8049. Professor Cook.'] We have it in evidence that the only lecturer here whom Edinburgh has recognized is Professor Scott. Dr. Brown expects to be recognized. Are you aware whether any members of the Hospital staff have made any attempts to obtain recognition ?—-No special attempts have been made by the staff. A hospital with a hundred beds can obtain recognition as a rule; a hospital without that number of beds cannot be recognized. The recognition of a hospital, with its hundred beds, implies recognition of all the teachers in that hospital. They cannot recognize one man, with some fifteen beds at his disposal; they are obliged to recognize all in order to give that one man validity. 8050. Are you aware that the University here desires to limit the present medical education to a two-years course ?—Yes. 8051. At Edinburgh University, in concert with which this University seems to be acting at present, does clinical surgery form a part of the two-years course ?—I am not aware whether it is compulsory that surgery should be taken, but I am under the impression that, if not taken there, it must be taken somewhere. b052. Do you know what constitutes the first two-years course in Edinburgh ? —I do not. If a hospital is recognized—and you cannot recognize it in one department and not in all—clinical medicine and surgery would be recognized. 8053. Are you aware whether the Dunedin Hospital has been recognized as a hospital ? —We were given to understand so. Certainly we were under the impression that it was, from the fact that the University applied for permission for the students to attend. It is the general impression of the Hospital staff that the Hospital has been recognized in Edinburgh at the instance of the Otago University. 8054. Dr. Macdonald.'] Must not the act of recognition be contained in some document ?—Yes. 8055. Have you seen any such document? —No. 805 G. Professor Sale.] Assuming that there is a general recognition of the Hospital, does it follow

Mr. Macdonald.

July 8,1879.

Dr. I. de Zouche.

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that the clinical lecturers, if any member of the staff lectured, would also be recognized by the Home authorities ?—Such, certainly, is my impression ; otherwise the recognition is imperfect. 8057. The clinical instruction you refer to here as being given to the students who attend the Hospital—is that what is called, technically, clinical lectures ? —Regular clinical lectures have not been organized yet, owing to this vexed question ; but clinical iustruction has been given at the bedsides of patients. 8058. Do you not hold that there is a difference, and is it not usual to recognize tbe difference, between bedside instruction and clinical lectures ?—Yes, there is a difference. The intention was to give clinical lectures as soon as our status had been properly defined. I myself began such clinical lectures, but have not given enough to speak much about them yet. 8059. AVhen you stated that the fees were to include hospital attendance, clinical medicine, and surgery, did you mean that they were to include regular clinical lectures also ?■ —Yes. 8060. Of course you do not mean that they at present include such lectures ?—As soon as our status is properly defined we will give them. The want of that recognition may be the reason why Dr. Brown has never given clinical instruction until the present year. I do not think there will be any difficulty about Dr. Brown's recognition by Edinburgh. To him the students must first look for clinical lectures ; but until this session he has never given auy, nor given clinical instruction, properly so called. 8061. AVhat do you mean by the expression " status " ? —I mean our standing as properly-recog-nized clinical teachers. AYe had no doubt —none whatever—but that our position in the Hospital gave us that standing, until this question was raised. 8062. Professor Cook.] In fact, that, as forming part of the staff, you had a certain standing as instructors ? —Yes. AYe look upon the Medical School as consisting of two distinct parts —the theoretical, represented by the University, and tho practical, represented by the Hospital. 8003. Dr. Macdonald.] AVhat steps ought to be taken to satisfy you as to your status ? —AVe supposed that the University would take proper steps to have the students recognized when they applied to us for permission for the students to attend. That permission was given. AYe did not bind ourselves to anything until we should hear further from the University. 8004. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Do you know whether the University, which has the charge of the Medical School, desired that the students should be able to attend clinical lectures aud receive clinical instruction ?—I judge so from the letter which Professor Scott wrote to the Hospital Committee. He wrote requesting that the staff should attend at stated hours, so that all beds should be available for clinical instruction. AYe judged from his letter that we were expected to give clinical instruction, because otherwise there was no necessity for such a regulation. If Dr. Brown only is recognized, he only should attend. AYe should not trouble ourselves to attend. Clinical instruction has been given by the other members of the staff. The students have been actually learning—the one who has gone Home ; and the other two have learnt from some of the physicians and surgeons. 8065. Professor Sale.] Do you think that the members of the Hospital staff who at present give instruction to the students, are placed on a proper footing in tbeir relation to the University ?—Certainly not, so far as regards a definition of that position as coming from the University. 8066. AVhat do you think is required ? —lf there is any doubt in the mind of the University on the subject, the staff should be written to and informed how far they are recognized, aud what portion, if any, of their instruction is recognized. 8067. Professor Ulrich.] Have the Hospital staff any idea whether the Professor of Anatomy agrees that clinical lectures should be given at the Hospital? —We judge that he does from his letter. He has written a letter in which he distinctly requests that the Hospital staff should attend at stated hours. I think that Professor Scott's letter happens to be here. 8068. Dr. Macdonald.] AVritten to whom ? —He wrote to the Hospital Committee, asking that the staff should attend at stated hours, in order that all the beds might be available for clinical instruction. The letter is as follows :— Gentlemen,— Fern Hill, sth May, 1879. AYe take the liberty of drawing your attention to the necessity for making some regulations with regard to the attendance of medical students in the Dunedin Hospital, and beg to offer the following suggestions for your guidance in the matter: — 1. That certain hours be fixed for the attendance of students. This implies fixed visiting hours for the medical staff. This is a matter of no small importance, for, though the Hospital contains 160 beds, very few of these are available for clinical instruction if only two or three of the staff attend at stated hours. Attendance on this Hospital is only reeoguized at Home on the assumption that all or nearly all the beds it contains are used for teaching purposes, and this is, of course, implied in all certificates of attendance. 2. That each student should pay a fee at the beginning of the session, and that his name be entered as a hospital student. That attendance be ascertained from time to time, and that certificates of attendance be granted at the end of every half-year. These certificates ought to be signed by the medical staff. 3. That separate certificates be granted for attendance on the post-mortem examinations held in the Hospital. AYe have, &c, To the Committee of the Dunedin Hospital. John H. Scott. 8009. Professor Sale.] Does that request imply a wish that regular clinical lectures should be delivered ? —AVe looked on clinical instruction as clinical lectures and bedside instruction as well. I never made any distinction. 8070. Professor Cook.] AVould it be of any service to students, do you think, to attend the Hospital and go round with the physicians or surgeons, and pick up anything they could, without receiving systematic instruction ? —Very little, I think. The physicians or surgeons would not, I think, trouble themselves about the students, nor take due interest in them, if they had not a definite position as clinical teachers and lecturers. The students are quite free to walk round with the

Dr. I. de ZoucJie.

July 8,1879.

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physicians or surgeons ; but they want certificates of attendance, which we are unwilling to give them unless we feel that we are recognized in every respect, and unless the fees are paid. The certificates have a market value. 8071. You think it would be unfair to give a certificate merely because a student went in a casual way and saw the operations ?—Quite so. In fact, I have refused a certificate to one student who did not attend properly. 8072. Bey. W. J. Habens.] I understand that the students have free admission to see anything going on in the Hospital ? —Yes ; but the moment that they want a certificate they must pay. 8073. And these certificates profess to be certificates of attendauce at the Hospital, and upon clinical lectures? —Yes ; of attendance on the Hospital and on clinical lectures. 8074. You think that the certificate would be valueless unless it set forth that the student had received clinical instruction? —I think so. 8075. Of course, you think that the clinical lectures, if given at all, must be given by the Hospital staff?— They must be. 8076. If the Hospital staff is recognized so far as is involved in the correspondence, it is only right that their certificates should be recognized as the certificates of lecturers ?—As clinical lecturers, yes. It is a portion of their work in the Hospital. 8077. And as they do the work they should receive the fee ? —lt follows, because they have the cases. 8078. Has the correspondence from the Medical School been from the Chancellor of the University, or from the Registrar ? AVho was the writer of the letters ? —The first letter was from the Registrar, requesting that the students might be allowed to attend the Hospital with the staff. The Hospital staff replied, that the students would have every facility for attendance, but the staff did not bind themselves to anything more. 8079. In what capacity did Dr. Scott write, requesting that the members of the staff might be in attendance? —1 really do not know. Ido not know how he takes this part in the matter ; but I suppose as representing the University. The letter is written in the plural, as Dr. Brown intended to sign it. 80S0. So far as you aro aware, it was not the University Council that made this application ?—I am not aware whether Dr. Scott wrote officially or not. AYe thought that he had the sanction of the University Council when he wrote. I could not say positively. The letter was read in the presence of the University Council as part of the correspondence on the subject, and not disclaimed by them. 8081. Professor Sale.] What did you understand to be the meaning of the step taken by the University, when they dispensed with the services of Drs. Hocken and Gillies as clinical lecturers ?—I thought it was done because there were no students, and that they were very expensive appointments in consequence. 8082. Then you propose that the fees charged to the students should take the place of the salaries previously offered by the University ?—Yes ; that is the view I take. It is so in many other schools. 8083. AVhat is tbe average cost, all through, per annum of the medical education of students at Home ?—The actual time during which students pay fees is about three years. They pay at the rate of £33 per annum. 8084. Professor Cook.] About £100 for the whole course ?—Yes. That is, a three-years course ; but if the students want more, they are not required to pay for more. 8085. Professor Sale.] In the case of a student at Edinburgh, do you know what he pays for admission to the hospital ? —He pays £10 for a permanent hospital ticket. For one year he pays £5 ss. 8086. He may attend as often as he likes, so long as be pays £10 ? —Yes; but that does not include clinical lectures. 8087. Do you think it desirable that a student should commence to attend clinical lectures in the first year of his studies ? —I think that he should from the beginning; but I beg to say in explanation tbat that does not involve reading. 80S8. Is it usual in the great medical schools at Home for the students to attend clinical lectures at first ?—ln some schools it is usual. Different schools have different usages. 8089. I am now speaking of a regular system of instruction ?—Yes. 8090. What schools at Home can you mention where that is so ? —I am a Dublin student; and there it is very usual. But the students do not read ; they gather knowledge from the lecturer and the cases before them. 8091. Do you know whether that is a common practice with other schools beside Dublin ?—I really do not know whether it is the practice in London or Edinburgh. 8092. Dr. Macdonald.] Or in any of the Home schools ?—I imagine that the students attend hospital and bedside instruction ; but I really do not know whether they attend clinical lectures or not. 8093. Professor Sale.] AVhat is the hospital fee at Dublin ? —The present fee is thirteen guineas per year of nine months. If the student takes the nine months at once, he pays twelve guineas. There are no permanent tickets there, because the students have the facility of choosing the best clinical instruction in the city; and for that reason all the hospitals are ou a par. 8094. Those tickets include clinical lectures ? —Yes. 8095. At what part of the student's course do you think that he should take the subjects of botany, chemistry, and physiology ?—I should think he ought to take botany and chemistry before he begins the study of medicine proper. 8096. That is, previously to his attending hospital at all ?—Yes ;or University lectures on medical subjects proper. Physiology should be taken in his first year. 8097. Then, according to your plan, what would the student be doing during his first year ?— Anatomy, physiology, and hospital attendance. 8098. Including clinical lectures selected by himself, as I understand you ?—AVell, clinical lectures in Dublin go with hospital attendance usually. 8099. Dr. Macdonald.] But, as I understand you, you can choose your hospital there ?—Yes.

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8100. Professor Sale.] Are these lectures prescribed for the students ? Is a regular course of clinical lectures marked out for them ? —No ; because that would, be reducing it to systematic lectures, when they should be taken according as the cases in the hospital require to be explaiucd. My idea of clinical lectures is, that they do not belong to a regular system, but must be taken as occasion requires, from cases in the hospital. That is the distinction between them and the systematic lectures delivered at a University. 8101. Suppose the students have taken the two years in Otago, and go to a medical school in Great Britain, will they again have to attend clinical lectures there ? Will the previous clinical lectures count ? —That depends on tho recognition accorded to the Hospital. If the Hospital is recognized we assume that it is recognized in every department, not merely as regards the number of beds, but on account of the instruction given, whether at the bedside or in the theatre of the Hospital. In that case the students should not have to attend again. Were they to be required to attend again, we, the Hospital staff, would look on it as an injustice to the students, and to the medical men themselves. 8102. Then, before fixing the amount of the fees, it would seem to be fair that the status of the lecturers should be first defined ?—I presume so. 8103. Professor Cook.] Do you think that the Dunedin Hospital is sufficiently large, to afford the students full opportunity of receiving the due amount of clinical instruction ? —I do. 8104. Do you think that you have a sufficient variety of cases, and so on ?—Amply so. 8105. Is there a sufficient number of operations to enable students to learn practical surgery ? — Quite enough for tbat purpose. 8106. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] Have you 160 beds ?—I think we always have over a hundred full. 8107. Professor Brown.] Do you think it practicable to establish a fully-equipped medical school in Dunedin at present ?—I understand that it is a matter of funds. As regards the professors, one might have to be imported —that is, a Professor of Physiology. AVith regard to the other branches, the men in Dunedin are quite able to undertake them, were funds available. 8108. All the other things necessary for a medical school are within reach here ? —I think so. The Professor of Physiology would require to be a specially-trained man. The teaching of physiology changes almost from year to year. 8109. How much, do you think, would a fully-equipped medical school cost here ?—That is a difficult question. I should have to go into figures. 8110. Could you give a rough estimate ? —I am afraid that I could not. 8111. Professor Sale.] Supposing that a student is compelled to take chemistry in his first year, do you think that he could also, with advantage, attend clinical lectures at the same time ? —I think so. May I give an explanation of my reason? The student, by going to the hospital to attend clinical lectures, is picking up medical phraseology, and the medical method of looking at patients. That is something which must be imbibed by degrees, by the students listening and constantly observing ; and to do so thoroughly requires time. It can never be " crammed." If a student attempts to learn that portion of his profession in his last year, he will fail to become a good practitioner. 8112. Professor Cook.] Your idea is, that the clinical course should be a two-years course ? —A twoyears course of clinical instruction, according to Edinburgh, is quite sufficient. 8113. I understood you to say that in his second year the student should read a little? —Yes ; in his second year he should begin to read. In his first year, I should not like a student to read practical medicine for the hospital work. In the third year, the students generally go into pure medicine and surgery as deeply as they can go, consistently with their other work. 8114. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] AVhat would bo the fee at Dublin for six months?— Nine guineas ; and for three months, five guineas. There was some question raised whether students would be placed at a disadvantage if they had to pay fees again at Edinburgh. If an opinion on that point is wanted by the Commission, I can give it. 8115. Are students from Dunedin or New Zealand placed at a disadvantage if they have again to pay fees at Home ? —I may say that my figures are drawn up hurriedly. lam assumiug that clinical instruction in Dunedin is recognized, and that the clinical lectures here aro also recognized. If the student remains one year in Dunedin, aud takes the rest of his hospital course, say, at Edinburgh, the fee to be paid by him in excess would be two guineas. 8116. Professor Cook.] That is, ten guineas iv Dunedin and two guineas in Edinburgh ?—The total hospital course in Edinburgh costs £24 14s. The amount of the total hospital course, taking one year in Dunedin and the remainder in Edinburgh, would be £26 16s. 8117. Professor Sale.] You are including clinical instruction in both cases ? —Yes ; and assuming recognition in Dunedin in every sense. If the student takes two years in Dunedin and one year in Edinburgh, which is all that is required, he would pay £21, thus he would save £3 14s. 8118. Bey. W. E. Mulgan.] In the one case he loses two guineas ; in the other he saves £3 14s. ?— Exactly. In any case the amount is not of very great importance. 8119. Bey. W. J. Habens.] Will you supply the data from which that statement is made ?—I took my information from the Lancet. A student taking the whole hospital course in Edinburgh would pay —Hospital ticket for permanent attendance, £10 ; clinical lectures, medicine, first year, £4 45.; clinical lectures, surgery, first year, £4 4s. ; clinical lectures, medicine, second year, £3 35.; clinical lectures, surgery, second year, £3 35.: total, hospital course, £24 14s. A student taking one year at Dunedin Hospital and the remainder of his hospital course in Edinburgh, would pay—First year's attendance, at Dunedin Hospital—clinical lectures, medicine, clinical lectures, surgery, attendance at post-mortem examinations, £10 10s.; remainder of hospital course in Edinburgh—hospital ticket, permanent attendance, £10; clinical lectures, medicine, second year, £3 35.; clinical lectures, surgery, second year, £3 35.: total, £20 16s. A student taking two years at Dunedin Hospital and the remainder of his hospital course in Edinburgh would pay —First year's attendance at Dunedin Hospital— clinical lectures, medicine, clinical lectures, surgery, attendance at post-mortem examinations, £10 10s.; second year at Dunedin Hospital —clinical lectures, medicine, clinical lectures, surgery, attendance at post-mortem examinations, £5 55.• the remainder in Edinburgh —hospital ticket, one year, £5 55.: total, £21.

Dr. I. de Zouche. July 8, 1879.

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APPENDIX.

I. —ABSTRACT or LETTERS weitten by direction op the Royal Commission. A. 20th January, 1879. —Asking for copy of information about to be supplied to the Education Department, according to tbe following Schedule. schedule. Matters respecting which information is more particularly required for the year ending 31st December, 1878:— (1.) Generally the constitution, objects, and operations of the school, and the work accomplished by it. (2.) Number of teachers (male and female) employed in the month of December, 1878, and their specific duties, as nearly as can be described. (3.) Number of pupils on the roll (male and female), and average daily attendance (male and female), for the December quarter, and, if possible, for the other three quarters. (4.) Number of pupils on the roll (male and female), and average daily attendance (male and female), for the month of December, 1878. [This is wanted for the information of the RegistrarGeneral.] (5.) The ages of the pupils (male and female) returned under No. 4, classified as follows : Under 10 years ; over 10 and under 15 ; over 15 and under 18 ; over 18. (G.) The classes or forms into which the pupils were arranged, the subjects of study, and the number of pupils in each class or form, in the month of December, 1878. (7.) The arrangements made for the inspection or examination of the school, and copies of any reports which may have been recently furnished to the governing body relating to such inspection or examination. (8.) Information as to scholarships, and the number of holders, annual value respectively, how long held, &c, and copies of the last examination papers set, if printed. (9.) The number of pupil boarders (male and female) connected with the school, the provision made for their accommodation and supervision, and the rate of charges, exclusive of the day-school fees. (10.) The scale of charges for the day school. (11.) Information respecting the school buildings aud grounds, and their suitableness or otherwise. (12.) General statement of the income and expenditure of the governing body for the year ending 31st December, 1878, shown under several distinct heads or classes. Sent to— Auckland College and Grammar School. Nelson College. Church of England College and Grammar Bishopdale College, Nelson. School, Auckland. Bishop's School, Nelson. St. John's College, Auckland. Canterbury College. AVesley College, Three Kings, Auckland. Christ's College, Christchurch. Napier Trust Schools. ' Girls' High School, Christchurch. AVellington College. Dunedin High Schools. AVanganui Industrial School (27th January). A. 23rd January, 1879. —To the University of Otago, asking for such information as the University proposed to give to the Government as to the proceedings of the year ending 31st December, 1878. B. 29th January, 1879. —Asking for a return of all reserves made within each provincial district for the promotion of education, with the exception of reserves for primary education under " The Education Reserves Act, 1577." Sent to — Commissioner of Crown Lands, Auckland. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Nelson. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Hawke's Bay. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Westland. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Taranaki. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Canterbury. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Wellington. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Otago. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Marlborough. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Southland. C. 29th January, 1879. —Asking for statement of value and application of reserves held under " The Education Reserves Act, 1877," for secondary education. Sent to— The School Commissioners, Auckland. The School Commissioners, Nelson. The School Commissioners, Hawke's Bay. The School Commissioners, Westland. The School Commissioners, Taranaki. The School Commissioners, Canterbury. The School Commissioners, Wellington. The School Commissioners, Otago. The School Commissioners, Marlborough. I—H. 1. (Ap.)

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D. 29th January, 1879.—Asking for information as to the condition, value, and application of endowments made out of public estate or grants of public money held under any trusts for the purposes of education in connection with the several institutions or bodies. Sent to — Auckland College and Grammar School. AVanganui Industrial School. Church of England Grammar School, Auck- Nelson College, land. Nelson School Society. St. John's College, Auckland. Bishopdale College, Nelson. AVesley College, Three Kings, Auckland. Bishop's School, Nelson. St. Mary's College, North Shore, Auckland. Native School Reserve, Motueka. St. Stephen's Industrial School, Auckland. Canterbury College. Napier Trust Schools. Christ's College, Christchurch. Te Aute Estate, Hawke's Bay. Girls' High School, Christchurch. Wairoa School, Hawke's Bay. Boys' High School, Christchurch. Poverty Bay Native School. Medical School, Christchurch. AVellington College. Church Property Trustees, Christchurch. AVesleyan School Reserve, Wellington. Otago University. Roman Catholic Female School, AVellington. Dunedin High Schools. Church of England Education Reserves, AVel- Otago Presbyterian Church Property Trustees, lington (Porirua, Wairarapa, and Otaki). E. 29th January, 1879. —Asking if reserves devoted by Acts of the General Assembly have been made available for the purposes of certain high schools, and, if so, what income is derived, and how it is applied. Sent to— Auckland Girls' High School. Christchurch Boys' High School. Thames High School. Ashburton High School. AVhangarei High School. Timaru High School. New Plymouth High School. AVaitaki High School. AVanganui High School. Southland High School. F. 17th February, 1879.—Askiug for information described in following Schedules A and B: — Schedule A to Letter of 17th February, 1879. Copy of prospectus. Copy of time-table. Brief statement as to the foundation, and the most important facts in the history of the institution. Statement of the duties and powers of the principal or headmaster or headmistress. List of teachers, with information as to their qualifications and salaries. Return showing what library, museum, laboratory, cabinets of scientific apparatus, drawing models, diagrams, maps, &c, are provided for the institution. Abstract of attendance returns for the past five years. Return showing how* many pupils or students reside away from home, and how many come from beyond your provincial district, distinguishing the localities from which they come. Schedule B to Belter of 17th February, 1879. Copies of last examination papers, annual aud for matriculation, with names of examiners. Number of students who have entered for and who have gained degrees, senior scholarships, third-year scholarships, honours, aud prizes, respectively, year by year. Number of undergraduates now on the roll, with the number of years during which each has kept terms. Time-table showing hours per week devoted to each subject, names of undergraduates attending in each subject, and names of teachers employed in each subject. Number of terms and length of session for undergraduates. Income available for purposes of University instruction. Remuneration to teachers on account of University work. Scholarships, prizes, and other rewards provided by the institution for the advancement of University education. Return of last year's miscellaneous expenses for purposes of University instruction. Schedule B sent to — St. John's College, Auckland. University of Otago. Canterbury College. Schedules A and B sent to — Auckland College and Grammar School. Nelson College. Church of England Grammar School, Auckland. Bishopdale College and Bishop's School, Wesley College, Three Kings, Auckland. Nelson. Wellington College. Christ's College, Canterbury. Schedule A sent to— Napier Trust Schools. Dunedin High Schools. AVanganui Industrial School. Invercargill Girls' High School. Girls' High School, Canterbury. G. 3rd February, 1879. —To the Hon. the Colonial Secretary, asking u "°rmation as to the University reserves. [Information since supplied from another source.]

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H. 3rd February, 1879. —To the Hon. the Colonial Treasurer, asking for a statement of all moneys granted at any time by the Colonial or Provincial Governments in trust for the promotion of education. IL—MEMORANDUM ON UNIVERSITY RESERVES. (Written by Secretary to Boyal Commission?) " The University Endowment Act, 1868," sets apart certain parcels of land as " reserves for the endowment of such university, institution, or body, corporate or collegiate, as shall by an Act of the General Assembly of New Zealand be declared to be the Colonial University for the endowment whereof the lands described in the Schedule, and other lands reserved under the provisions of this Act, shall be deemed to have been made." " The New Zealand University Act, 1874," appropriates to the use of the University of Otago all lands within the Province of Otago reserved under "The University Endowment Act, 1868;" and directs that the proceeds from all other lands reserved under the Endowment Act, 1868, " shall be dealt with for promoting higher education in the respective provinces in which such reserves are situate, in such manner as the General Assembly may from time to time determine." " The New Zealand University Reserves Act, 1875," describes certain blocks of land and refers to other blocks, and these all are to be administered under the Endowment Act, 1868, and for the purposes of higher education in the respective provinces in accordance with " Tho New Zealand University Act, 1874," as quoted above. The reserves known as University reserves are the following:—

The three blocks of 10,000 acres each in Auckland are all taken out of confiscated land, so that any one of them may be taken to be the block described in schedule to Endowment Act, 1868. It was at one time intended to set apart a block of 20,000 acres at Tahawai, Tauranga, but in Committee of the Legislative Council the schedule to the University Reserves Bill was amended by striking out this reserve. The reserve of 10,000 acres in Southland, set apart by the Governor in 1869, is transferred to the University of Otago by the operation of "The New Zealand University Act, 1874." Mr. G. AY. Williams writes to the Surveyor-General, on the 19th March, 1879, as follows: " The surveyors engaged upon the AVaitotara Block have been instructed by me to complete their plans by the 21st of next month, and after that I shall be in a position to recommend a block for the University reserve." An Act w*ill be necessary to authorize the proclamation, the six months limited by the Reserves Act, 1875, having expired. By section 7 of Endowment Act,' 1868, the lands reserved remain vested in the Crown. By section 8 the Governor has power to grant leases, but no leases have yet been granted. By section 9 rents, profits, and proceeds are to be paid into the branch of the Public Account called " The Special Fund," to the credit of an account to be called " The Colonial University Account;" and by section 10 the Governor may appoint three persons to be trustees of the Colonial University Fund. As yet there is no fund and there are no trustees. In a volume of "Rejected Bills, 1870," there is the draft of a Bill proposing to appoint trustees not merely of the fund, but of tbe whole estate, to administer for the promotion of higher education in the districts in which the reserves are respectively situate, without the restriction contained in the words, "in such manner as the General Assembly may from time to time determine." I cannot find that the Bill was ever introduced, but it was under the notice of the Government in 1877, as well as in 1876.

Place. Area. When defined, &e. 5V_s_:_A"s_ — Hokitika—2G (iu red) ... Hokitika —27 (in red) Greymouth—28 (in red) Greymouth—29 (in red) Okarito—30 (in red) Okarito —31 (in red) 5 acres ... 5 acres ... 5 acres ... 5 acres ... 5 acres ... 5 acres ... 1868, Schedule to Endowment Act. 186S, Schedule to Endowment Act. 186S, Schedule to Endowment Act. 1868, Schedule to Endowment Act. 1868, Schedule to Endowment Act. 1868, Schedule to Endowment Act. ilJCKLAND Taupiri, Waikato Karamu, Waikato Waimana, Opotiki Ararimu, Kaipara -AKTEEBTJET —■ Ashburton 10,000 acres ... 10,000 acres ... 10,000 acres ... 354 acres ... 1875, Schedule A, Reserves Act. 1875, Schedule A, Reserves Act. 1875, Schedule A, Reserves Act. 1876, Gazette, April 20. 1,500 acres ... 10,000 acres ... 1876, Gazette, April 20. 1879, Gazette, April 10. CaEA-TAKI ... vVellii-G-O-T — Waitotara 4,000 acres ... [See below.]

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III.—GENERAL STATEMENT OF RESERVES FOR EDUCATION, NOT BEING RESERVES SET APART FOR PRIMARY EDUCATION UNDER "THE EDUCATION RESERVES ACT, 1877.' A.—AUCKLAND.

Description. Area. Value. Present Rental. Prospective Annual Value. Remarks. A. E. P. £ s. a. £ s. d. £ s. d. The area of reserves for secondary education is stated by the Secretary to the School Commissioners as it is given hero. In the Gazette referred to the area of some reserves is said to be "not ascertained," and, on that account, the Royal Commission has not ordered an independent computation of the total to be made. School Commissioners report that distribution of revenue has not been made. Stated at " about 2G0." No demand for leases. For Secondary Education, administered by School Commissioners (Gazelle, 16th December, 1878) — 92 0 33 2G0 0 0 313 1 19 8,235 0 0 1,430 2 21 272 1 0 Town and Suburbs —Let Unlet ... Rural —Let Unlet Proposed to be devoted to Secondary Education 75 10 0 Auckland College and Grammar School — For a College and Grammar School or Schools — ■ Reserves as stated by Commissioner of Crown Lands 28G 0 23 1,712 5 0 i_b" o o Stated at "about 8,235." No demand for leases. Secretary to School Commissioners gives 1,43G acres 2 roods 21 perches as thc area of lands which it is intended to devote to secondary education, but which, with othev lands intended for primary education, have not been duly assigned to the iutended purpose by formal distribution announced in Gazette. The Secretary of the College states that thc rental is £1,712 5s., and that reserves of the annual value of £99 arc unlet; also that a sum of £7,500 is now invested, being accumulated rent and interest, and bearing interest £545 10s. per annum. It was given in evidence that one of the reserves, consisting of 10,000 acres, might be let at once at £375 per annum. For value see answer to question 378. University Reserves (described in No. II. above) In connection with Ihe Church of England — a. For religious, industrial, and English education of children of both races, &e. — St. Stephen's, Auckland ... 30,354 0 0 11,383 0 0 G7 2 16 20,000 0 0 171 G 0 (for 40 acres) 100 0 0 Valuation by W. Aitken, Esq., who also values the buildings at £9,000. Puniu Kohanga Kohanga P.pepe llopuhopu Olawhao(perIiaps 173 acres 0 roods 38 perches) I. Granted "as a mission station or as a _ite for a place of public worship, or for school purposes connected with religious andmoral instruction" — Rotorua a. For school and for house for clergyman — Auckland d. For church, school, and cemetery — Waihengarika, Poverty Pay In connection with the Wesleyan Methodist Society — Thc Three Kings Endowments — a. Grafton Road,granted for Native institution ... a. Three Kings, granted for Native institution ... b. Three Kings, granted for religious, industrial, and English education of children of both races, &c, several grants c. For a Native sclicol, -Aotea a. For a Native school, Waiharakeke ... 870 0 0 470 0 0 280 0 0 133 3 0 1,385 0 0 175 0 38 8,700 0 0 1,175 0 0 700 0 0 535 0 0 j Not used ... i Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands at £10 an acre. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands at £2 or £3 an acre, but by Rev. R. Burrows at 10s. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands at £1 an acre. Not used Only 5 or G ac.lct 1,752* 7 C Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands at £10 per acre. 318 2 10 318 12 G 12 0 0 60 0 0 Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands at £1 an acre. 0 2 27 593 0 0 400 0 0 Part of the rent is applied towards support of Native Girls' School, Napier. G 3 0 192 3 12 4,000 0 0 11G 0 0 Valued by W. Aitken, Esq., who also values the buildings at £4,500. G31 2 12 402 0 0 169 0 0 i 10,600 0 0 (■ 299 0 0 < 45 acres not ( let \ Valued by W. Aitken, Esq., who also values the buildings at £1,000. ...

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General Statement op Reseeves foe Education, not being Reseeves set apart eor Primary Education — continued. A.—AUCKLAND — continued. Description. Area. Value. Present Rental. Prospective Annual Value. Remarks. In connection with the Roman Catholic Church — a. For religious, industrial, and English education of children of both races, &c— St. Mary's, North Shore ... Freeman's Pay ... b. For school for Natives and Half-castes, Raugiaohia c. Granted as a site of a school — Auckland City In connection with Free Presbyterian Church — Auckland City, school site In connection with Primitive Methodist Church — Auckland City, chapel and school site Granted to Andrew Kelly and others for place of public worship and school — Waikomiti, Lot 238... Whangarei High School ... ... ... . Thames Bish School Auckland Girls' High School A. E. P. 37G 1 28 4 3 0 19t 0 0 0 2 0 0 2 18 £ s. d. 4,000 0 0 3,000 0 0 955 0 O £ s. d. 40 0 0 £ s. a. Valued by W. Aitken, Esq. Valued by W. Aitken, Esq. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands. 0 14 4 0 0 3,891 0 0 The Kioreroa Block. Land to value of £10,000 to be set apart within Tc Aroha Block. Land to value of £5,000 to be set apart out of any reserves for education. 10,000' 0 0 B.—HAWKE'S BAY. For Secondary Education, administered by School Commissioners (Gazelle, 12th June, 1878) — Reserves let Reserves unlet In connection with Church of England — Te Aute Estate — For education of children of both races For school for Natives (2,283 acres p) ... Income not distributed, there being no secondary schools recognized by School Commissioners. The figures are from returns by Secretary to School Commissioners. 4,913 3 10 5,782 0 6 274 11 6 174 15 0 700 acres (here included) leased at about _d. an acre, not paid to School Commissioners. 4,626 0 0 2,383 0 0 | Valued by Rev. S. Williams at about £3 per acre. C—TARANAKI. For Secondary Education, administered by School Commissioners — Taranaki — Reserves let Reserves unlet Patea— Reserves let Reserves unlet University Reserves (see above, No. II.) New Plymouth High School 23G 3 37 2,318 2 11 83 4 0 48 i" 0 0 The figures hero given are from return of Secretary to School Commissioners, which differs from statement in Gazette, 12th June, 1878. Income retained in hand, there being no secondary school. No demand. Estimate by Secretary to School Commissioners. 207 0 8 3 0 28 10,000 0 0 10 4 175 0 0 Land to value of £10,000 to be set apart out of education reserves.

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General Statement of Reserves for Education, not being Reserves set apart for RIMAUX D tJCAT ION SOIltiltltei D.—WELLINGTON. Description. Area. Value. Present Rental. Prospective Annual Value. Remarks. For Secondary Education administered by School Commissioners (Gazette, 12th June, 1878) — Paraekarctu Rangitumau ... Wellington College — Site Endowments in Wellington Endowments in Carnarvon Endowments in Carnarvon, &e. Endowments in Paraekarctu Endowments in Rangitumau Endowments in Fitzherbert (849 a. 3 r. 17 p. ?) Endowments in Palmerston University Reserve (described in No. II. above) — [Waitotara] ... Wesleyan Reserve for Education (religious, industrial, and English) In connection with Church of England — School site in Wellington Porirua —For public school Otaki —Church Mission Society school Wanganui —Religious, industrial, aud English education of both races, &c. Wairarapa —Collcgo ... In connection with Roman Catholic Church — Site of St. Joseph's Providence School Section 488, Wellington Porirua —For public school Wanganui High School ... A. B. P. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. Income not yet distributed. 5,161 2 0 6,000 0 0 24 0 0 £35 to £92 £5 [ Rent and prospective value Btated by Chairman of School Commissioners. 69 1 0 10 3 17 345 3 21 694 0 17 4,065 3 0 5,000 0 0 832 3 15 32 3 3G 1,05410 0 25 18 3 not used 1,58115 0 About 20 acres will be leased under Act of 1878. \ These lauds were purchased with proceeds of sale of Grammar School buildings. ' Thc grants for these two reserves have not been issued. [4,000 0 0] [73 1 22] [3,50o"o 0] (for 70 acres sold) 60 0 0 (for 3a. Ir. 8p.) Time for Proclamation has lapsed. Act will be necessary. 70 acres 14 perches of this reserve was sold for £3,500 (" Wellington Reserves Act, 1871"). The Act treats the whole reserve as sold. 0 0 38 500 0 0 5G1 0 25 250 0 32 75 0 0 200 0 0 690 5 1 At present lent to Board of Education. Rent invested for future establishment of college. Rent applied to maintenance of local Native school. £690 5s. Id. was received for rent in 1878. Annual rent not stated. Part of the land has been sold for £595 for raihvay. Rents accumulate for future operations. 590 0 0 65 0 0 75 0 0 0 0 22. 10 0 108 0 0 30 0 0 36 0 0 Rent applied to aid St. Joseph's Providence School. Rent applied to aid Catholic schools in Wellington. Land to value of £10,000 out of education reserves. E.—MARLBOROUGH. For Secondary Education administered by School Commissioners (Gazette, 12th June, 1879) — Reserves let Reserves unlet Vested in His Excellency the Governor — ■ Tuainarina —For publie school ... Nelson College — Opawa School Commissioners report that no distribution of income has been made. 147 1 24 117 1 38 10 3 6 4| acres worth £135. The rest not estimated. 2 1 10 The building is used by Education Board for primary-school purposes, and hy religious bodies. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands, Nelson. 800 0 0 1,600 0 0 30 0 0

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General Statement of Reserves for Education, not being Reserves set apart for Primary Education — continued. F.—NELSON. Description. Area. Value. Present Rental I SSS^SL. Remarks, For Secondary Education administered by School Commissioners (Gazette, 12th June, and 10th Julv, 1879)— Reserves let Reserves unlet Nelson College — [City of Nelson, Block A] City of Nelson, Block D City of Nelson, Block B Motueka, Block E Amuri, Block 80 Nelson School Society — City of Nelson Riwaka, part 64 Wakefield ... Spring Grove In connection with the Church of England — Motueka —For religious, industrial, and English education of children of both races, &c. A. E. P. £ s. d. £ s. a. £ a. A. Cobden, 150, 119, five acres, has not been assigned either to primary or to secondary education. 1,380 3 8 507 0 38 8,689 0 0 765 10 0 556 14 2 Income reserved for a girls' high school. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands. [7 0 0] 6 0 0 17 2 0 331 O 0 2,783 3 0 350 0 0 500 0 0 650 0 0 5,560 0 0 40 0 0 20 0 0 113 0 0 130 0 0 Exchanged for land in Amuri. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands. Valued by Commissioner of Crown Lands. 0 3 0 2 2 0 10 0 0 5 0 0 . Used for Sunday School. Let to Education Board, with other sites, for £12 10s. per annum. 1,078 0 5

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G.-CA_.TERBUKY. 1. Bcturn made by Mr. John Marshman, Commissioner of Crown Lands, Christchurch. Sic, — Land Office, Christchurch, 17th February, 1879. I think the papers herewith contain all the information relating to education reserves in this district that is requested by your letter of the 29th ultimo. Some of it is in my possession as Commissioner of Crown Lands, some as Chairman of the School Commissioners, and some has been obtained from the Canterbury College. I thought it would be convenient to havo the whole story in one paper, and I believe the General Statement gives it. I have said nothing about the income already received by the School Commissioners from the secondary education estate, and what has been clone with it, because that can be best got from the statement of accounts, for the year ending 31st December last, that has been lately sent to the Education Department. I may say, with respect to the sum in the hands of the Commissioners at that date belonging to the secondary education estate, that, with the exception of the Girls' High School, Christchurch, there is, or rather was at that date, no school in Canterbury that was entitled to participate in the distribution of the revenues therefrom. The Commissioners made a grant of £300 last year to the Girls' High School, and, as to the remainder, they have just decided to distribute it amongst the High School Boards created last session (Christchurch Boys', and Timaru and Ashburton High Schools) in the proportions in which the estate itself was, by the Legislature, divided amongst those Boards. Copy of the Commissioners' minute on tbis subject is attached.—l have, &c, The Secretary of the Royal Commission on Higher Education. John Maeshman.

The School Commissionees. (Extract from Minutes, 11th February, 1879.) The Treasurer stated that the sum at present held by the Commissioners to the credit of the secondary education estate w*as £1,594 lis. 4d. "The Education Reserves Act, 1877," provides that tbe revenues derived from reserves set apart as an endowment in aid of secondary education in any provincial district should be allocated to the several education districts within the provincial district, if there should be more than one, in proportion to population ; and that the sums so allocated to the several educational districts should be appropriated by the School Commissioners to the advancement of secondary education within those educational districts respectively. But this disposition was altered by the several High School Acts of Christchurch, Timaru, and Ashburton, 1878. By those Acts it was provided that one-half in value of the reserves constituting the secondary education estate should pass from the Commissioners and vest in the Canterbury College, for the maintenance of the Boys' High School, Christchurch, one-fourth thereof in the Board of Governors of tbe Timaru High School, and one-tenth in the Board of Governors of the Ashburton High School. The residue, consisting of three-twentieths thereof, remains with the Commissioners. The Board, after consideration, decided to distribute the funds in hand amongst the governing bodies of these several High Schools in the proportion in which the corpus of the estate had been divided amongst them by statute. It appeared that the net amount available for distribution was £1,525, arrived at as follows :— Cr. £ s. d. Assets, cash in hand ... ... ... ... ... 1,594 11 4 Uncollected rents ... ... ... ... ... ... 33 10 3 £1,628 1 7 Dr. Liabilities —Proportion of Steward's salary, five £ s. d. £ s. d. months, December, 1878, to April, 1879 (both inclusive), \of £250 ... ... ... 62 10 0 Proportion of cost of main drain in Reserve No. 1400, now resigned to Timaru High School ... 25 0 0 Sundries, say ... ... ... ... ... 15 11 7 103 1 7 Available for distribution ... ... ... ... 1,525 0 0 £1,628 1 7 The rents are payable in advance in May and November in each year. The half-year's rent payable in November, 1878, has all been collected with the exception of the sum above named, and the funds in hand are chargeable with expenses of management from the present time to the lst of May next, when the next half-year's rent becomes receivable. A grant was made in 1878 to Canterbury College, for the Girls' High School, Christchurch, of £300. For the purpose of distribution, the sum assumed to be distributable is £1,850, consisting of — £ s. d. Cash in hand as above ... ... ... ... ... 1,525 0 0 Grant made to Canterbury College ... ... ... ... 300 0 0 Special charge, Timaru High School Estate ... ... ... 25 0 0 £1,850 0 0 And the distribution is,— £ s. d. Canterbury College, |of £1,850-£3OO ... 625 0 0 Timaru High School, lof £1,850-£25 ... ... ... 437 10 0 Ashburton High School, T3 of £1,550 ... ... ... ... 185 0 0 Retained by the Commissioners,-5. of £1,850 ... ... ... 277 10 0 Previously distributed (as above) ... ... ... ... 325 0 0 £1,850 0 0 The Treasurer was requested to pay these sums to the respective governing bodies. John Maeshman.

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STATEMENT of Reserves made within the District of Canterbury for Education Purposes, other than those for the Purposes of Primary Education.

Purpose. Town Lands. Are». Original Area. Rural Land. Present Area. °I_ea. al | A«. Sold. Pastoral Land. Present Area. Amount Received for Lands Sold. Area. Land now Let. Present Rentalj *»JP£«« Land now Let. Land not Let. Remarks. Area. Estimated present Annual Value. feO i_- For Canterbury College : P** A. Classical School B. Classical School iz C. School of Technical Science ... C. Superior Education '7^ C. School of Agriculture \Z D. Christchurch High School, £, Girls Medical Faculty ... E 1. Christchurch High School, Boys A. E. P. 11 0 15 A. E. P. 8953 0 0 A. E. P. 8953 0 0 ... ... Acres. 105207 101640 100950 Acres. 12269 1037 39258 Acres. 92938 100603 61692 £ 24,538 2,074 78,516 4,370 A. B. P. 6 1 20 8313 0 0 92938 0 0 100603 0 0 56692 0 0 £ s. d. 466 10 0 1,302 11 6 929 7 7 1,006 0 7 566 18 5 £ s. d. 624 15 0 1,871 18 6 1,516 0 8 1,880 14 11 1,225 17 3! A. B. P. 4 2 35 640 0 0 5000 0 0 2815 0 0 £ s. d. 60 0 0 32 0 0 25 0 0 563 0 0 5000 0 0 2815" 0 0 Not surveyed. 5000 0 0 5000 0 0 9360 3 0 5822 0 0 915 14 10 1,600" 8 6 5000 O 0 3538 3 0 750 O 0 432 2 6 Not surveyed. ... Total for Canterbury College E' 2. Timaru High School E 3. Ashburton High School E. Secondary Education E. Secondary Education 11 0 15 18953 0 0 26128 3 0 4198 0 0 1287 0 0 307797 52564 255233 109,498 264374 1 20 2626 0 0 1159 0 0 5,187 2 11 556 14 6 263 2 0 8,719 14 10 773 15 G 433 5 6 16998 1 35 1572 0 0 128 0 0 2 10 1086 0 0 1,862 2 6 273 15 0 19 4 0 9 0 0 173 10 0 ... ... 2 "i 0 1767' 0 0 16612' 3 0 681* 0 0 367 12 6 535 16 0 ... Total 13 1 15 35565 3 0 33380 3 0 J268840 1 20 19786 2 35 2,337 11 6 307797 52564 255233 *109, 498 6,374 11 11 10,462 11 10 A. to E 1. Vested in the Canterbury College. E 3. In governing body of Ashburton High School. E 2. In governing body of Timaru High School. F, E. Administered by the School Commissioners. A. These lands are let on lease for twenty-one years. The sum put down as prospective value is the sum of the rents accruing within the second seven years of the tenancy, commencing lst November, 1885. For particulars, see Detailed Statement, No. 1. [Not printed.] B. These lands are let on lease for fourteen years, at different dates, ranging from 1871 to 1875. The prospective rental is that belonging to the second seven-years period. That period has already commenced as respects six of the tenancies. For particulars, see Statement No. 2. [Not printed.] C. C, C. These are pastoral lands or sheep runs, and are by the terms of the original reservation, as well as by statute, subject to the laws for the time being regulating the disposal of the waste lands of the Crown —that is, they are to be sold in the same way and at the same price as Crown lands are sold, the proceeds being payable to the governing body of thc Canterbury College, instead of to the Colonial Treasury. The rental, as stated, is the sum payable in respect of thc present acreage, and is subject to reduction from time to time as further sales are made. The prospective rental here means the rent payable as for a depasturing license according to the assessment made under the authority of " The Land Act, 1877." The assessment takes effect on the lst May, 1880. There may be within the unsold portions of these runs a few thousand acres that may be hereafter purchased, but the greater part of what is considered worth buying at 40s. an acre has been already taken up : what is left is for the most part hilly, and some of it mountainous, fit for nothing but sheep walks, and, unless the price is reduced to a rate that would make it profitable to buy it for the purpose, there is no probability of further sales, other than in a very limited degree. Statement No. 3 [not printed] gives particulars of the lands constituting the several reserves. D. This land was reserved under the authority of " The Waste Lands Administration Act, 1876," and was subject to sale as Crown lands. The liability to sale ceased when " The Land Act 1877 " came into operation. But an application had been made to purchase part of it (2,185 acres) before the date at which the last-mentioned Act became operative. It was held that the applicant could claim to complete the purchase, and he did complete it. The residue, 2,815 acres, cannot be sold. E 1, E 2, E 3. These lands consist of reserves appropriated to secondary education under " The Education Reserves Act, 1877," and up to the present time they have been administered by the School Commissioners. They have now, under the authority of " The Christchurch Boys' High School Act, 1878," and the Timaru and Ashburton High Schools Acts, 1878, been set apart by the Commissioners for the maintenance of these several schools. The governing bodies of these establishments have not yet been formally vested with these lands, and the legal estate in them is at this moment in the School Commissioners But the award setting forth the apportionment has been forwarded to the Minister, and the gazetting of them, as vesting in the governing bodies respectively, will follow. Practically therefore, although the governins bodies have not possession of these lands, they have passed out of the power of the Commissioners, and it seemed that it would be, for the present purpose, convenient to regard them as belonging to the several High Schools. [Note. —They have been gazetted since the memo, was written. —Sec. Royal Comm.j F, F. This is the residue of the secondary education estate remaining in the hands of the School Commissioners. The statutory appointment was, to Christchurch Boys' High School, J; Timaru High School, i ; Ashburton High School, T ' a ; together $£ ; and the residue remaining to the Commissioners is For particulars see Statements Nos. 4, 5, 6, and 7 attached. [Not printed.] Most of the classical school reserves, and very many of those now belonging to the several High Schools (E 1, E 2, E 3), were let at rates which, although the best that could be obtained at the time, are much below what could be got for them if they were being let now. It may be assumed that they will, when the present leases fall in, let at rates from 30 to 50 per cont. above the highest rates payable under those leases. *[Not_. —£10,000 appropriated to college buildings, and £10,537 to purchase of farm for agricultural school.— Sec Royal Comm.] 13th February, 1879. John Maeshman.

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2. University Beserves. [1,500 acres described in No. 11. above.] 3. Christ's College Endowments and Church Property Endowments. a. Rev. F. Knowles to the Seceetaey to Royal Commission. Christ's College Library, Christchurch, Reveeend and deae Sic, — 12th February, 1879. In reply to your letter of 25th January I have the honor to forward you a statement of endowments made to the Church Property Trustees " out of public estate and held under trusts for the promotion of education." That certain properties also appear which are held uuder trust for ecclesiatical purposes only, arises from the fact that I have included iv the statement all the properties which arc conveyed by the deed of 23rd December, 1868, from the Superintendent of Canterbury to the Church Property Trustees. I do not gather from your letter that it is necessary to include in my statement the original properties of the trust, these being a private endowment for ecclesiastical and educational purposes made by the Canterbury Association and vested in the Church Property Trustees for these purposes. I have, &c, The Rev. W. J. Habens, Feas. Knowles, Secretary, Royal Commission on Education. Secretary, Church Property Trustees.

CROWN GRANTS to Superintendents of Canterbury of Reserves.

The above were conveyed by the Superintendent to the Church Property Trustees (subject to the trusts mentioned), by deed dated 23rd December, 1808.

J. Rev. F. Knowles to the Seceetaey to Royal Commission. Reveeend Sic, — Christ's College Library, Christchurch, 12th March, 1879. In reply to your letter of sth instant, I beg to submit, for the information of the Royal Commission on University and Higher Education, in accordance with your request, the following statement — 1. Of the manner in which the original estate of the Church Property Trustees was acquired ; 2. Of the lands vested in the Church Property Trustees by the Canterbury Association. 1. " The Canterbury Association " was incorporated by letters patent of tbe Crown, dated 13th November, 1849, among its objects, as recognized in the said letters patent, being tbis : " the establishment and maintenance of ecclesiastical and educational institutions in connection with the Church of England ;" and the expenditure of the funds of the Association was to be " regulated, so far as circumstances would admit,.according to the following appropriation—viz., one-sixth part to the acquisition of the tract of land requisite for the site of tbe intended settlement; two other sixth parts to the emigration of settlers ; two other sixth parts to ecclesiastical and educational purposes ; and the remaining sixth part to the general purposes of the Association," in which general purposes public works necessary for the reception and convenience of the settlers wero to be included. It was in pursuance of this plan of distribution and expenditure that the endowment vested in the Church Property Trustees " for ecclesiastical and educational purposes in connection with the Church of England " was acquired. The price of land sold to the original settlers being £3 per acre, £1 thereof was set apart as a separate fund for ecclesiastical and educational purposes. Out of the fund thus created were paid "all the preliminary expenses of the settlement for objects connected with education and the Church."

Date. No. Situation. Purpose. Acreage. 20th September, 1855 65 Head of Bay Church, parsonage, school, aud cemetery Church purposes Church, parsonage, school, aud cemetery Church and school Church and school Church and school Church and school Church and school Church and school Church and school Site for a church Church purposes Church and school Church and school Church purposes Church, school, and cemetery Church and school Parsonage site ... School and cemetery A. E. P. 5 0 0 20th September, 1855 .0th September, 1855 66 69 Governor's Bay Sumner 5 0 0 5 0 0 24th July, 1865 Mth July, 1865 24th July, 1865 24th July, 1865 24th July, 1865 24th July, 1865 24th July, 1865 24th July, 1865 28th August, 1865 ... L8th September, 1865 LSth September, 1865 _8th November, 1S65 L7th February, 1868... 25th June, 1868 25th June, 1868 25th June, 1868 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 149 421 200 201 167 64 90 97 166 Prebbleton Rangiora ... Kaiapoi Island Lincoln Road North Road Harewood Road Oxford ... Okain's Bay Geraldine... Springs Road Ashley Price's Bay Papanui ... Little Akaloa Akaroa Kaituna ... 5 0 0 5 0 0 5 0 0 5 0 0 5 0 0 5 0 0 5 0 0 2 10 1 2 25 5 0 0 5 0 0 5 0 0 5 0 0 10 0 0 0 2 14 6 0 0

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AVhen the functions of the Canterbury Association finally ceased, one principal item in the settlement of their affairs was the constitution, under a Provincial Ordinance, of a Local Board of Trustees —viz., the " Church Property Trustees"—to receive, hold, and administer the lands aud moneys set apart as aforesaid for ecclesiastical and educational purposes. It was provided that the trustees should do this in subordination to the Synod or governing body of the Diocese of Christchurch, whenever that diocese should be completely organized. AVith the concurrence of the Church Property Trustees, Mr. Sewell, the Agent of tho Association, set apart, in tbe year 1855, a portion of the ecclesiastical and educational estate, amounting as nearly as could be ascertained to one-fifth of the whole, that being tho proportion originally intended by the Association to be expended on education, as a special endowment for Christ's College, Christchurch. The lands selected were conveyed by Mr. Sewell to the Church Property Trustees, and by them, by deed bearing date 21st May, 1855, to Christ's College, then newly incorporated by Proviucial Ordinance. It is to be noticed tbat the foundation of Christ's College, together with the support previously afforded to various Church schools, was held by tbe Association and tbeir Agent as a sufficient discharge of tbe obligations they bad incurred to promote the cause of Church education in the settlement. The remainder of the property held by the Association was transferred to the Church Property Trustees in the year 1850, and now forms the general trust estate for ecclesiastical purposes, chiefly applied by the trustees to the maintenance of tha clergy, and the building of parsonages, but out of which a considerable sum has been granted for the building of Church schools as well as churches in various parts of the diocese. It is also to be noted, in reference to the ecclesiastical and educational reserves, specified in my former return, that these lands, having been first reserved, were subsequently purchased by moneys drawn from the ecclesiastical fund, a doubt having arisen whether their legality as reserves could be effectually sustained. They therefore stand now upon the same footing as the remainder of the Church Property Estate as originally derived from the Canterbury Association—viz., they are the result of an actual expenditure of moneys forming a portion of the price paid for lands by tho purchasers under the Association, and set apart by the Association for ecclesiastical and educational purposes for the benefit of the said land-purchasers aud their families aud employes, and were not made out oi public estate in the usual sense of the term. 2. I subjoin to this letter a terrier of the General Trust Estate vested in the Church Property Trustees, which, with the terrier of reserves previously sent you, will form a complete statement of the lands intrusted to them for ecclesiastical aud educational purposes by the Canterbury Association, I have, &c, The Rev. W. Habens, Secretary, Royal Feas. Knowles, Commission on Education. Secretary, Church Property Trustees. Teeeiee oe Lands vested in the Church Property Trustees by the Canterbury Association for Ecclesiastical and Educational Purposes, in addition to those specially set apart as an Endowment for Christ's College, Christchurch.

A.—RESERVES.

1. Christchurch. No. 1 2 3 4 6 7 8 12 13 14 17 18 19 Cathedral ... Church School, &c. ... Parsonage ... Parsonage ... School, &c. ... Church Church School, <fcc. ... Parsonage ... School, &c. ... Parsonage ... Church Cathedral Square Latimer Square Latimer Square Hereford Street Oxford Terrace Lichfield Street Oxford Terrace Cranmer Square Cranmer Square Cranmer Square Manchester Street Manchester Street Kilmore Street A. R. P. 3 1 10 0 2 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 3 0 0 0 2 0 0 2 15 0 2 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 27 28 30 2 School, &c. ... Church Church, Parsonage, and School . Lyttelton. Ripon Street Winchester Street Simeon's Quay 110 0 3 0 0 3 0 3. Sumner. 40 | Church, &c. | Sumner 2 0 0 4. j Rural Lands. 20 26 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 Cemetery ... Cemetery ... Church Church, School, &c., Cemetery, and Parsonage Church, &c. School Church Parsonage ... Cemetery ... I Christchurch ... i Lyttelton 1 Heathcoto Valley Riccarton Pigeon Bay Akaroa Akaroa Akaroa Akaroa 22 2 0 3 0 30 1 3 26 5 0 0 2 0 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 10 0 3 0 0

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B.—GENERAL TRUST ESTATE.

1. Town Lands ■ In Christch hurch. No. of Section. 3 4 5 13 14 15 16 17 18 104 105 106 107 10S 109 111 113 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 154 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 A. E. P. 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 f°- 0f A. E. P. Section. 169 0 10 170 0 10 171 0 10 172 0 10 173 0 10 174 0 10 181 0 10 1S2 0 10 183 0 10 184 0 10 185 0 10 186 0 10 187 0 10 188 0 10 190 0 10 192 0 10 194 0 10 196 0 10 201 0 10 202 0 10 203 0 10 204 0 10 205 0 10 206 0 10 207 0 10 208 0 10 209 0 10 210 0 10 211 0 10 212 0 10 213 0 10 215 0 10 237 0 10 239 0 1 o 241 0 10 243 0 10 245 0 10 264 ! 0 1 0 No. of ; Section. 266 268 270 275 276 279 293 295 296 297 f324) to [ 341 ) 347 349 354 355 356 357 390 392 456 458 460 462 868 870 1106 1108 1110 1124 1126 1128 1130 1132 1134 7 9 A. e. p. 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 4 2 0 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 1 0 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 I I I I I I I I I No. of Section. 11 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 189 191 193 195 358 359 360 361 388 292* 294* 342* 344* 346* 348* 350* 351* 352* 353* 872* 874* 876* 878* A. E. P. 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 2. Town Lar, ds, Lyttelt ton. 93 126 133 134 135 159 160 161 163 164 175 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 176 i 0 1 0 177 0 10 178 0 10 179 0 10 180 0 10 181 0 10 182 0 10 183 0 10 184 0 10 185 0 10 i 1S6 187 188 247 248 317 318 319 320 331 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 > I I > I > I I 332 333 334 335 J335 156 157 158 167* 168* 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 0 10 3. Run il Land. 318 321 325 244 0 0 173 0 0 200 0 0 324 100 0 0 324a 50 0 0 326 347 200 0 I 79 0 i 0 0 317 330 250 0 I 342 1 I 0 0 * Since sold. t Inclusive. [J «*.] Pras. Knowles, 12th March, 1879. Secretary, Church Property Trustees.

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c. Rev. G. Cotteetll to the Seceetaey to Royal Commission. Sic, — Christ's College, Christchurch, 18th February, 1879. I have been requested by the Right Rev. the Warden of Christ's College, Christchurch, to send you the information required by the Royal Commissioners on University and Higher Education with respect to Christ's College. All the endowments and grants of money held under trust by the governing body of Christ's College were from private sources, with three exceptions. The exceptions are as follow: — I. The site granted by an Ordinance of the Provincial Council of Canterbury. I enclose a copy of the deed by which it is held. The site was occupied for the purpose for which it was granted within the time specified in the deed, and has ever since been used as a site for Christ's College and for grounds attached thereto. 11. A grant of the Provincial Council in 1857 of £500 for building purposes on the site. A headmaster's house and schoolroom adjoining were built in 1857, aud were in use for about ten years, when they were destroyed by fire. They were replaced by the headmaster's house and class-room now standing. 111. A grant of the Provincial Council, in 1863, of £1,000 towards the building of a schoolroom. A large stone schoolroom was erected, and has been used as a schoolroom to the present date. Grants were made from time to time by the Provincial Council for current expenses of the school, and paid, first, through the Bishop of Christchurch, as a head of a denomination; secondly, through the Education Board ; and, thirdly, directly from the Provincial Council. I have, &c, G. Cotteeill, Rev. W. J. Habens, Secretary to Royal Commission Bursar of Christ's College. on Higher Education.

This Deed made the twenty-fourth day of February, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred aud fifty-seven, between James Edward FitzGerald, Esquire, Superintendent of the Province of Canterbury, in New Zealand, of the oue part; and Christ's College, Canterbury, incorporated by a certain Ordinance of the Superintendent and Provincial Council of the said province intituled Christ's College Ordinance of the other part. Whereas by an Ordinance of the said Superintendent and Provincial Council intituled the Canterbury Association's Reserves Ordinance it was, amongst other things, enacted that it should be lawful for the Superintendent to convey by way of free grant to the corporation of Christ's College, Canterbury, a portion of the lands therein described as the Government Domain of Christchurch, not exceeding ten acres in exteut, to be held by the said corporation in trust as a site for the said college and for grounds attached thereto, provided that it should be a condition of the said grant that, if the said land should not be occupied for the purpose aforesaid within three years from the passing of the said Ordinance, or should at any time thereafter cease to be so occupied, the said land should revert to the said Superintendent as though the said grant never had issued, and should thenceforth constitute a part of the Government Domain as in the said Ordinance described: And whereas the piece or parcel of land hereinafter described, and intended to be hereby granted and conveyed, being part of the said Government Domain, hath been selected as a site for the said college, with the approbation of the said Superintendent of the said province and of the governing body of the said college respectively ; and the said Superintendent hath agreed at the request of the governing body of the said college to execute unto the said corporation a grant of the said piece or parcel of land, upon the trusts and subject to the conditions hereinafter expressed : Now this deed witnesseth that the said Superintendent of the said Province of Canterbury, in pursuance and exercise of the pow*ers vested in him by the said Canterbury Association's Reserves Ordinance, and of every other power enabling him in that behalf, doth by this deed made by him and in his name, and executed under the public seal of the said Province of Canterbury, grant, convey, and assure unto the said corporation of Christ's College, Canterbury, all that piece or parcel of land being part of the Government Domain of Christchurch, in the said province, containing nine acres and three roods or thereabouts, statute measure, situate in the north-east corner of the said Government Domain, commencing at a point fifty links west of Antigua Street and one hundred and seventy links north of a line in continuation of the northern side of Worcester Street; thence extending due west a distance of seventeen chains and forty links; thence due north at a right angle a distance of five chains and fifty-two links, to the south bank of the River Avon ; thence along the said bank of the said river in an easterly direction to a point on the river bank fifty links west of Antigua Street aforesaid ; and thence in a line fifty links from and parallel with Antigua Street aforesaid, to the commencing point: and which said piece or parcel of land is more particularly delineated and described by the map or plan thereof indorsed on these presents, together with the rights, members, and appurtenances to the said piece or parcel of land and premises belonging : To bold the said piece or parcel of land and premises, with the appurtenances, subject to the public roads, streets, ways, outfalls for water, and other public easements, liberties, and privileges affecting the same, if any, unto and to the use of the said corporation of Christ's College, Canterbury, for ever, in trust for a site for the said college and for grounds attached thereto, and upon no other trust or purpose whatsoever : But subject, nevertheless, to the proviso hereinafter contained iv that behalf, that is to say, —Provided always and it is hereby declared that the grant hereinbefore expressed to be hereby made is so made upon this express condition : that, if the said piece or parcel of land hereby granted be not occupied for the purpose aforesaid within three years from the passing of the said Canterbury Association's Reserves Ordinance, or should at any time hereafter cease to be so occupied, the said piece or parcel of land and premises, with the appurtenances, shall thenceforth revert to the Superintendent of the said province for the time being as though this present grant had never been made or issued ; and shall thenceforth constitute a part of the Government Domain of the said province, as in the last-men-tioned Ordinance described. In witness whereof the said Superintendent hath hereunto set his hand, and caused the seal of the

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said Province of Canterbury to be hereunto affixed, at Christchurch aforesaid, the day and year first before written. James Edwaed FitzGeeald. Signed by the said James Edward FitzGerald, Superintendent of the said province, and sealed with the seal of the said province, in the presence of vs —■ EICHAED Pac KEE, Of Christchurch, Keeper of the Public Record. H. B. Geesson, Of Christchurch, Member of the Executive Council.

d. Rev. G. Cotteeill to the Seceetaey to Royal Commission. Deae Sic,— Christ's College, Christchurch, 2Sth March, 1879. I forward, in accordance with your request, a statement with respect to the endowment of Christ's College derived from the Canterbury Association. I have, &c, Rev. AY. J. Habens, Secretary to Royal Commission G. Cotteeill, ou Higher Education. Bursar to Registrar.

Cueist's College Endowment derived from the Canterbury Association. In 1855 Mr. Sewell, the Agent of the Canterbury Association, with the concurrence of the Church Property Trustees, set apart a portion of the general estate, amounting to about one-fifth of the whole, as an endowment for the College. The lands selected were conveyed by Mr. Sewell on behalf of the Canterbury Association to the Church Property Trustees, and by them were conveyed to the College, which at that time had received incorporation by an Ordinance of the Provincial Council. The particular lands thus transferred as College endowment are as follow :—

Rural Land.

Number of Section. Extent. Situation. 119, part of 119a, part of 121, part of 122 123 >8 136 acres 5 „ 58 „ 95 „ 202 „ 100 „ Kaiapoi. >) Purarekanui. Papanui. " Ways Section." Total 596 acres Town Land, Christ* thurch. S Tos. 63 to 84 S Tos. 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 93, 95 STos. 137, 138, 139, 140, 142, 144, 146 STos. 303, 305, 307, 389 5j acres 9 A *•_ )> If „ 1 „ Total 10j acres Town Land, Lyiti ■lion. S Tos. 70, 80, 81 _os. 121, 122, 123, 124 _os. 107,108,109, 110, 111 I acre 1 H H X _ I! Total 3 acres £ acre " Ways Section " of tow land, Dampier's Bay. Gr. Cotterill, Bursar to Re; Christ's Colle, ;e, Christchurch, 28th March, 1879. ristrar.

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CrEHERAL STATEMENT OF RESERVES EOS EDUCATION, NOT BEING RESERVES SET APART EOR PRIMARY EDUCATION — continued. H.—WESTLAND. Description. Area. Talue. Present Rental. Prospective Annual Value. Remarks. Eor Secondary Education, administered by School Commissioners (Gazette, 12th June, 1878) — Reserves let ... ... ... Reserves unlet University Eeserves (described in No. II., above) A. E. P. £ s. d. £ a. d. £ s. d. 71 o 0 4,268 2 28 30 0 0 805 0 0 Income not distributed to schools. I.—OTAGO AND SOUTHLAND. Eor Secondary Education, administered by School Commissioners (Gazette, 12tb June, 1878) — Town lands in Otago ... ... ... Rural lands in Otago Town lands in Southland (t rood not let) Rural lands in Southland (299a. Or. 8p. not let) ... Dunedin High Schools — Town lands in Otago Rural lands in Otago Runs in Otago (5,120 acres not let) Waitaki High School — Town lands in Otago Rural lands in Otago Southland High School — Town lands in Southland (2a. Or. 34p. not let) ... Rural lands in Southland Runs in Southland ... University of Otago — Runs in Otago Runs in Southland ... Site of University Museum Endowment [Presbyterian Church Lands for Education] 3 3 22 2,098 1 5 0 2 0 604 1 0 54 12 0 368 12 6 10 0 131 9 7 There are three small reserves for education which do not appear either in the list of primary reserves, or in that of secondary: —Invercargill (14, liii.), 1 rood; Athol (5 and 6, ii.), 1 acre; and Forest Hill Hundred (217), 10 acres. School Commissioners do not show how their revenue is applied. 4 10 179 2 0 91,825 0 0 97 0 0 31 10 0 1,046 14 9 0 2 6 2,458 0 8 18 10 0 474 14 5 Part of this may be let for building purposes. Of the rent, 10 per cent, is paid to the Athenseum. Part of the estate is by law devoted to maintenance of Chair or Chairs in University or College. The Trustees decline to supply information. 6 2 38 1,027 3 22 22,536 0 0 105 10 0 198 13 6 187 16 0 200,000 0 0 10,000 0 0 10 0 0 11,000 0 0 1,955 14 1 343 15 O 5,600 0 0 916 13 4

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IV.—PAPERS RELATING TO THE NEW ZEALAND UNIVERSITY. (Supplied by the Registrar.) A. Absteact of the Results op the Scholaeship Examinations. (1.) Scholarships under the Old Begulations, and Junior Scholarships under the New Regulations. Examination of 1872. Successful Candidates. From AVellington College ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 Nelson College ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 6 Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 6 Dunedin High School ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 Private tuition ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 3 The total number of candidates was 38. 17 [Note —Of the successful candidates, one is known to have died ; one proceeded to the degree of B.A. in the University of New Zealand; and one obtained the same degree in the University of Otago. The remainder did not proceed to a degree, but the names of three are still on the books of the University.] Examination of 1873. Total Successful Candidates. Candidates. From Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 0 Nelson College ... ... ... ... ... ... 7 1 Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... ... 12 2 Private tuition ... ... ... ... ... ..3 0 23 3 [Note. —Of the three successful candidates, two (the same as in 1872) have their names still on the University books ; the third died.] Examination of 1874. Total Successful * Number of Candidates. Candidates. Scholarships gained. From Auckland College ... ... ... ... 3 2 2 Nelson College ... ... ... ... 6 3 3 Christ's College ... ... ... ... 5 3 4 Dunedin High School ... ... ... 2 2 5 Private tuition ... ... ... ... 1 0 0 17 10 14 [Note. —Of the ten successful candidates, three have proceeded to the degree of 8.A., and three others have their names still on the University books. The remainder have not continued their course.] Examination of 1875. Total Successful Number of Candidates. Candidates. Scholarships gained. From Auckland College ... ... ... 8 2 3 Wellington College ... ... ... 8 3 4 Nelson College ... ... ... 8 5 5 Christ's College ... ... ... 4 4 4 28 14 18 [Note. —Of the fourteen successful candidates, three have proceeded to the degree of 8.A., and eight are still undergraduates. The remainder have not continued their course.] Examination of 1876. Total Successful Candidates. Candidates. From Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... 2 0 AVellington College ... ... ... ... ... 5 1 Nelson College ... ... ... ... ... 8 0 Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... ... 7 3 Private tuition ... ... ... ... ... ... 2 0 24 4 [Note. —The holders of these four scholarships are all still undergraduates.] Examination of January, 1878. Total Successful Candidates. Candidates. From Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... 11 1 St. John's College ... ... ... ... ... 2 0 AVellington College ... ... ... ... ... 7 0 Nelson College ... ... ... ... ... 5 0 Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... 4 1 AVest Christchurch Public School ... ... ... 1 1 Dunedin High School ... ... ... ... ... 2 2 Private tuition ... ... ... ... ... 6 0 38 5 [Note. —The holders of these five scholarships are all still undergraduates.] * In 1874 and 1875 the scholarships wer« awarded for proficiency in special subjects, and more than one stholarsbpi could be gained and held by a candidate.

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Examination of December, 1878. Total Successful Candidates. Candidates. From Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... ... 7 0 Church of England Grammar School, Auckland ... ... 3 0 Wellington College ... ... ... ... ... 3 0 Nelson College ... ... ... ... ... ... 5 2 Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... ... 7 0 Dunedin High School ... ... ... ... ... 2 1 Private tuition ... ... ... ... ... ... 12 0 39 3 (2.) Senior and Third-Year Scholarships. Examination of May, 1876. Total Successful Candidates. Candidates. From Auckland College ... ... .. ... ... ... 5 2 Examination of November, 1876. Total Successful Candidates. Candidates. From Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... ... 3 0 University of Otago ... ... ... ... ... 1 0 Examination of January, 1878. Total Successful Candidates. Candidates. From Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 1 Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... 6 2 University of Otago ... ... ... ... ... 5 1 12 4 [Note. —Of the four successful candidates, two have intimated their intention of coming up for honours.] Examination of December, 1878. Total Successful Candidates. Candidates. From Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 1 Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... 7 2 University of Otago ... ... ... ... ... 5 2 13 5

B. Retuen showing the Number of Undergraduates who came up, and the Number who passed, at the Examinations for the B.A. Degree in the Years 1876, 1878 (January), 1878 (December). 1. B.A. Degree, 1876. (a.) Under present Regulations of the University of New Zealand :— First Section. Mat Examination. November Examination. Candidates. Passed. Candidates. Passed. Auckland College 5 2 3 1 University of Otago ... ... ... 0 0 1 0 Final Examination. November Examination. Candidates. Passed. Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... ... 2 1 (5.) Under old Regulations of the University of New Zealand: — Final Examination. Candidate. Passed. University of Otago ... ... ... ... ... 1 1 (c.) Under old Regulations of the University of Otago : — Final Examination. Candidates. Passed. University of Otago ... ... ... ... ... 2 2 2. B.A. Degree, 1878—Januaey Examination. (a.) Under present regulations of the University of New Zealand: — First Section. Candidates. Passed. Wellington College ... ... ... ... ... 2 0 Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 1 Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... 5 3 University of Otago ... ... ... ... ... 5 5 13 9 Final Examination. Candidates. Passed. Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... ••• 1 1 Wellington College ... ... ... ... ... 1 0 3—H. 1. (Ap.)

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(..) Under-teachers' regulations : — Final Examination. Candidate. Passed. 1 0 (c.) Under old regulations of the University of New Zealand : — Final Examination. Candidates. Passed. Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 1 Private tuition ... ... ... ... ... ... 3 3 3. B.A. Degeee, 1878 —December Examination. (a.) Under present regulations of the University of New Zealand : — First Section. Candidates. Passed. Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... ... 2 0 Christ's College ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 1 Canterbury College ... ... ... ... ... 3 2 University of Otago ... ... ... ... ... 3 2 9 5 Final Examination. Candidates. Passed. Auckland College ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 0 Wellington College ... ... ... ... ... 2 0 Canterbury College ... ... ... ... , ... 4 2 University of Otago ... ... ... ... ... 4 2 11 4 (J.) Under-teachers' regulations : — First Section. Candidates. Passed. 2 1 Final Examination. Candidates. Passed. 2 0 (c.) Under old regulations of the University of New Zealand:— Final Examination. Candidate. Passed. Private tuition ... ... ... ... ... ... 1 1 C. Honours and M.A. Degeee. Examination of 1876. Where Educated. Number of Candidates. Ckss obtained. Subject. University of Otago. 1 First class. Mathematics and mathematical physics. Examination of December, 1878. Where Educated. Number of Candidates. Class obtained. Subject. Auckland College. 1 First class. Languages and literature. Private tuition. 1 Failed. Natural science. [Note. —The two candidates who obtained honours received the M.A. degree without further examination.]

D. Accounts for the Yeae ending 31st Decembee, 1878. 1. Geneeal Account. Dr. Cr. 1878. £ s. d. £ s. d. Feb. 1. To balance 485 8 7 By paid Attendance of Senate 212 14 0 Receipts— G-ovcrnment grant ... 3,000 0 0 „ Salaries 365 14 8 „ Fees 47 6 0 „ Examinations CB2 3 0 „ Sale of Calendar ... 12 6 „ Printiug 211 5 0 „ Examination deposits... 50 0 0 „ Advertising 35 2 3 „ Refund, examinations... 93 0 0 „ Miscellaneous 25 11 2 „ Interest, fixed deposits 717 6 „ Pettyexpen.es 8 711 „ Transfer, Scholarship „ Transfers 1,510 0 0 , Account 290 0 0 „ Balance in Bank ... £231 211 „ Transfer, Boweu Prize „ „ on fixed deposit 700 0 0 Account 913 5 „ „ in hand ... 2 7 1 933 10 0 £3,984 8 0 £3,984 8 0 1879. ==a=iii== Mar. 1. To balance brought down £933 10 0 2. Scholarship Account. Dr. Cr. 1878. £ s. d. £ s. d. Feb. 1. To balance 4,833 12 6 By paid Scholarships 485 0 0 Receipts—From G-encral Account 1,500 0 0 Transfer to General Account 290 0 0 „ Interest of fixed deposits 232 10 0 Balance in Bank £266 2 6 „ on fixed deposit ... 5,525 0 0 5,791 2 6 £6,566 2 6 £6,566 2 6 1879. " —a-—--— Jan. 1. To balance brought down £5,791 2 6

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3. Bowen Prize Account. Dr. Cr. 1878. £ s. d. £ s. d. Feb. 1. To balance 114 13 5 By paid Bowen Prize 9 13 5 Interest received .., 419 11 Balance in Bank 109 19 11 £119 13 4 £119 13 4 1879. ' ~~ Jan. 1. To balance brought down £109 19 11 4. General Balance-Sheet. Dr. Cr. 1878. £ s. d. £ s. d. Feb. 1. To balance 5,433 14 6 By Expenditure, various accounts 3,835 11 5 Receipts as per balance-sheets ... 5,236 9 4 Balance on fixed deposit... £6,225 0 0 Balance in Bank of N.Z. ... 497 5 5 „ in Savings Bank .. 109 19 11 „ in hand ... ... 2 7 1 —— 6,834 12 5 £10,670 3 10 £10,670 3 10 1879. Jan. 1. To balance brought down £6,834 12 5

__. Specimen Copies of Insteuctions to Examinees, 1878-79. Sic, — University of New Zealand, Christchureh, Sth July, 1878. In pursuance of the arrangement under which you have undertaken to conduct the University examination for 187S-79 in mathematics, I have the honour now to forward to you the information necessary for your guidance. The examination is appointed to commence on Friday, December 27th. I forward to you herewith a copy of the University Calendar for 1878, containing the regulations and recommendations relating to the examination, and the examination papers of last year. The examination for 1878-79 will be, as heretofore, for scholarships, degrees, and honours ; but there are some modifications in the regulations which have been made by the Senate in its late session, and to which I have to direct your attention. It will be convenient to take the different examinations in their order, beginning with The Examination for the B.A. Degree. This, as last year, contains two subdivisions, for students under the present and under the old regulations. The regulations relating to the former are found at pp. 52, 53, and 54 of the Calendar, and the detailed schedule of the subjects in mathematics at p. 73. The schedule iv mathematics under the old regulations is found at p. 80, and you will observe that this differs from the former in including arithmetic and excluding trigonometry, and in other details. Only one student comes up under these old regulations this year, and no further examination under them will take place. Papers will be required in algebra, geometry, trigonometry, mechanics, and hydrostatics under the present regulations, and in arithmetic, algebra, geometry, mechanics, and hydrostatics under the old regulations. The Examination for Senior Scholarships. You will recollect that last year separate papers were required for this examination, containing questions of a higher character, including the elements of the subjects for the honour examination. At its last session the Senate repealed this regulation, and made another, which stands as Section A 7!., p. 50 of the Calendar, to the effect that the senior scholarship questions shall be added to the papers for the B.A. degree. The time-table of the examination, which I enclose to you herewith, has been drawn up according to this rule, and you will observe that, instead of the B.A. papers occupying three hours and the senior scholarship papers three other hours, the former are to take two hours and the latter one. The supervisors will be instructed to direct the undergraduates to deliver up their answers to the B.A. questions at the end of the second hour ; those who compete for senior scholarships will then answer, during the third hour, the questions specially addressed to them. No senior scholarship questions are required under the old regulations. The Examination for Third- Year Scholarships. You will observe in the Calendar, p. 50, Section VIII., that the Senate has this year instituted a new class of scholarships, called third-year scholarships, to be awarded to those students who shall have most successfully passed in certain subjects of the B.A. degree examination. I need not, however, enter here into details regarding these, as they are not to be awarded in mathematics. The Examination for Junior Scholarships. There is no alteration in this examination this year, so far as regards the regulations, which are found at p. 49, &c, of the Calendar, and the recommendations, &c, which are found at p. 62. Instead, however, of the papers occupying as heretofore three hours each, you will see by the enclosed time-table that it is proposed to allot two hours to them. Mathematical papers will be required in arithmetic, algebra, geometry, and trigonometry. It results from what I have said that the following mathematical papers will be required this year: —For the B.A. degree, two hours each, 4 papers; for junior scholarships, one hour each,

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extra questions; for the B.A. degree, old regulations, two hours each, 4 papers; for the junior scholarships, two hours each, 4 papers : total, 12 papers, with extra questions occupying one hour attached to four of them under the present regulations for the B.A. degree. At p. 61 of the Calendar you will find a resolution of the Senate permitting candidates to use all intelligible abbreviations in the mathematical papers. The Senate at its late session thought it advisable that the rules regarding the printing, concealment, and distribution of the examination papers should be framed upon a permanent basis, and accordingly passed a series of resolutions on this subject, a copy of which I forward to you herewith. Under the first of these resolutions I shall be obliged if you will have the mathematical papers printed in Melbourne and forwarded to me, according to tho following list: —B.A. papers, old regulations, each five copies; B.A. papers, -new regulations, with senior scholarship questions, each twenty-five copies ; junior scholarship papers, each fifty copies. Kindly affix, at the head of the various papers set by you, headings, to prevent confusion; as, for instance, "Junior Scholarship Examination, Arithmetic;" or, "B.A. Examination, Old Eegulations, Algebra." The list of documents forwarded to you herewith (in separate parcel) as enclosed contains various other papers which I send as last year, in order to furnish you with full information regarding the examination. As was the case in the examination of January last, marks will not be required for the mathematical examination for the B.A. degree: a statement that the candidate has "passed" or "not passed " will be sufficient if given for each paper as well as for the whole subject. For candidates for senior scholarships it will be necessary to state whether they have passed the B.A. examination " with great credit," and whether they have shown a degree of proficiency satisfactory to you. I shall be obliged if you can forward the papers set by you so as to reach me not later than 20th November next. I have, &c, W. M. Maskell, Professor Nanson, 8.A., University of Melbourne, Melbourne. Eegistrar.

List of Documents forwarded in separate Parcel. 1. Calendar for 1878 ; 2. Time-table of the Examination ; 3. List of Marks, Junior Scholarship Examination, and Eesolution of Senate respecting Apportionment of Marks ; 4. Instructions to Supervisors ; 5. Eesolutions of Senate respecting Printing and Concealment of Papers.

Sir, — University of New Zealand, Christchurch, 20th January, 1879. I have the honour to inform you that I am posting to your address herewith a packet containing the answers to the examination papers set by you in mental and physical science. The papers of candidates for junior scholarships are marked, as last year, with Arabic numerals, those of the undergraduates with capital letters, according to the enclosed list. I enclose to you a paper showing the maximum marks allotted to the various subjects of the junior scholarship examination, and a resolution of the Senate respecting these marks, under which it is open to you, if you think fit, to make a special recommendation in the case of any candidate who may distinguish himself in science. It will be necessary for the Chancellor, in order to award scholarships, to have before him the marks gained by each candidate in each paper. (These marks are not intended for publication.) AVith regard to the papers of undergraduates, the Chancellor would be obliged if you would report separately on each paper, as well as on the wdiole : stating, that is, whether the undergraduate has " passed " in each paper, and also whether he has done sufficiently well, in your opinion, to " pass " in the whole subject. Failure in one paper need not necessarily entail failure altogether. On the senior scholarship papers, it is requisite that the examiner should state whether the candidate has passed " with great credit," and has exhibited satisfactory proficiency, as laid down in the Eegulations, p. 50, of the Calendar, Sections A r. and VI. As intimated to you in my letter of 10th July last, there is, this year, another class of scholarships, called " Third-year Scholarships," to be gained by the undergraduates who obtain the highest marks in certain subjects of the B.A. examination, amongst which is mentioned " experimental physics." For this purpose, it will be requisite to attach marks, on a basis to be fixed at your discretion, to the papers in science on Heat, Sound, and Light, in which there is an undergraduate attempting a third-year scholarship. Kindly telegraph, in case you should desire further information, to tho Chancellor (address, Christchurch). Tho Senate will meet on the first Wednesday in March, and the Chancellor would be greatly obliged if you would forward your report so as to reach him, at the latest, by the 28th February. I have, &c, AY. M. Maskell, F. J. Pirani, Esq., C.E., University of Melbourne, Melbourne. Eegistrar.

List of Papers forwarded in Mental and Natural Science. Junior Scholarship : Heat—l 6, 33, 37, 38. Sound and Light—33, 37, 38. Electricity—23, 32. B.A. Degree: Heat—B, C, F. Sound—B, C, K. Light—B, C, K. Electricity—F, K. Mental Science—E, I, S, T, U. Senior Scholarship : Heat —F. Electricity —F. Mental Science —E. Third-Year Scholarship : Heat, Sound, Light—B. Note.—Examiners' reports will appear in a later part of the Appendix.—Sec. R. Com.

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V.—PAPERS RELATING TO INSTITUTIONS FOR HIGHER EDUCATION ONLY, AND AFFILIATED TO THE NEW ZEALAND UNIVERSITY. A.—University or Otago. 1. Extracts from Calendar, 1879. Peopessobs—Classics, and the English Language and Literature: George Samuel Sale, M.A., formerly Fellow and Classical Lecturer, Trinity College, Cambridge. Mathematics and Natural Philosophy: John Shand, M.A., formerly Head Mathematical Master in the Edinburgh Academy. Mental and Moral Philosophy, and Political Economy: Duncan Macgregor, M.A., M.8., formerly Fergussou Scholar in Mental and Moral Philosophy. Chemistry: James Gow Black, M.A., Dr. Sc, formerly Baxter Scholar in Physical Science, Edinburgh University. Natural Science : Frederick AVollaston Hutton, F.G.S., C.M.Z.S., Cor. of Nat. Hist., Museum of Paris. Anatomy: John Halliday Scott, M.D. Edin, M.E.C.S. Eng. Mining and Mineralogy: Geo. H. F. Ulrich, F.G.S., Graduate of the Royal School of Mines at Clausthal, Hartz. Lectueees —Law: Allan Holmes, B.A. Oxon., of the Middle Temple, Barrister-at-Law. French and Italian: Vacant. German: Arthur Biichler. Surgery : AVilliam Brown, M.A., M.8., CM. Tho University of Otago was founded in 1869 by an Ordinance of the Provincial Council, with the intent to "promote sound learning in the Province of Otago." It was formed into a "body politic and corporate," with the power of granting degrees in Arts, Medicine, and Law, and received as an endowment 100,000 acres of pastoral land. It was opened in 1871 with a staff of three Professors, all in the Faculty of Arts. In 1872 the Provincial Council voted to the University a further endowment of another hundred thousand acres of pastoral land. This important accession to its revenues, with the aid of some subordinate sources of income, enabled the University to make considerable additions to the staff of Professors and Lecturers in the Faculty of Arts, to establish a Lectureship in Law, and to lay the foundations of a Medical School. In 1574 an agreement was made between the University of New Zealand and the University of Otago, by which the functions of the former were restricted to the examination of candidates for matriculation, for scholarships, aud for degrees; while the latter bound itself to become affiliated to the University of New Zealand, to hold in abeyance its power of granting degrees, and to waive the claim which it had advanced to a Royal charter. As a result of the agreement thus effected, the University of Otago became possessed of 10,000 acres of land, which had been set apart for University purposes in the former Province of Southland. In 1877 the Colonial Government voted an annual grant to the Council for the establishment and support of a school of mines in the University. A curriculum of study has now been drawn up,, and the school will be opened at the beginning of the ensuing session. The endowment of 11,000 acres of land in the Strath Taieri district, which had been set apart for the support of the Museum, has also been vested in the University Council. In addition to the endowments which have been referred to, the University receives the benefit of certain educational funds held in trust by the Presbyterian Church of Otago, and which by law are required to be applied to the endowment of professorships in the Faculty of Arts. One of the professorships originally instituted—that of Mental Science —was endowed from this source; and it has lately been intimated to the University Council that the funds are now in a position to support another Chair. The University, however, is entirely unconnected with any religious denomination ; it contains no faculty of theology, its instruction is purely secular, and it is restrained by its constitution from imposing any religious tests upon its Professors, Lecturers, or students. The supreme governing body of the University is the Council, the members of which hold office for life. In terms of the Ordinance, the right of filling up vacancies in the Couucil was vested in the Superintendent of the province, but by reason of political changes it has now devolved upon the Governor. The Chancellor and Vice-Chancellor are elected by the members of the Council out of their own body, and hold their offices for three years. The Council appoints the Professors and Lecturers, manages the finances of the institution, and attends to all its external relations. The conduct of the educational arrangements of the University is committed to the Professorial Board, which consists of all the Professors and those Lecturers who have been appointed members of it by the Council. The University contains a Faculty of Arts, a School of Medicine, a School of Law, and a School of Mines. The courses of lectures in the Faculty of Arts prepare for the preliminary examinations in Medicine and in Law, for the professional examinations of schoolmasters, and for degrees, senior scholarships, and honours in the University of New Zealand. The Medical School provides lectures in chemistry, zoology, anatomy, and systematic surgery ; and it is the intention of the Council to establish additional lectureships as soon as the funds at their disposal will enable them to do so. The lectures in chemistry, zoology, aud anatomy delivered by the Professors of these subjects are recognized by the Court of the University of Edinburgh for graduation there ; and it is expected that a similar recognition will be received for the surgical lectures before next session. The Dunedin Hospital has also been thrown open to the students. This institution contains over one hundred and sixty beds, and arrangements are being made for giving clinical instruction to the students. The lectures in law prepare for the professional examinations before the Judges of the Supreme Court, and, in conjunction with the classes in the Faculty of Arts, for the LL.B. degree of the University of New Zealand. A School of Mines has now been organized. A Director has been appointed who will conduct classes in mining, geology, mineralogy, and petrography ; and, for the illustration of the lectures in these subjects, an ample collection of apparatus, models, specimens, and diagrams has already been obtained. Lectures in physics, mechanics, and surveying will also be provided as soon as arrangements, now in progress, have been completed. These lectures, with an extension of the subjects already treated in the Museum, the chemical laboratory, and other science classes, will form a course of study as complete as those of similar institutions iv Europe.

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Since the issue of the first edition of this Calendar, a new University building has been erected on a site containing about eight acres of ground. It is conveniently situated in tho immediate neighbourhood of the Hospital, the Museum, and the Botanic Gardens ; all of which are available for the purposes of the University. The physical, chemical, and anatomical laboratories are being fitted up with all the appliances required for the efficient teaching of the subjects appertaining to each. The new building will be open throughout for the classes at the beginning of next session. The University library, founded mainly by public subscriptions, already contains more than four thousand volumes, which for the most part havo been specially selected by the Professors for the use of the students. All students attending tho University, whether matriculated or not, are entitled to the free use of the library, and it is also open as a library of reference to the general public, who must, however, provide themselves with cards of admission by application to the Registrar. The library is under the direction of a committee, composed of three members of the Council and three members of the Professorial Board. The chemical laboratory in the University, which has been conveniently fitted up, is under the charge of the Professor of Chemistry. Its main aim is the training of students in chemical manipulation, and in inorganic and organic analysis ; but on grounds of public convenience it has been opened as a public analytical laboratory. In this capacity it is largely made use of for the analysis of ores, minerals, soils, fabrics, and foods ; and these analyses are frequently taken part in, or performed under supervision, by the more advanced students. The laboratory is open for instruction from May to November, and for analysis during the whole year. The Professor of Natural Science is also Curator of the University Museum. This building consists of a hall 90 feet by 45, with two galleries, beneath which is a basement, containing lecture-room, duplicate-room, &c. These rooms have concrete roofs, and, as tho galleries in the hall are of concrete, supported by iron columns, the building may be considered as fire-proof. Behind the hall are four rooms for offices and library, and two class-rooms. The library contains more than a thousand volumes of valuable works on natural history, and is supplied by mail with all the principal scientific periodicals. The collections of New Zealand plants and animals is now nearly complete ; while the foreign collections consist of more than 200 species of mammals, about 1,300 species of birds, fair collections of reptiles and fishes, which are now in process of being prepared for exhibition, more than 2,500 species of Mollusca, 190 of Crustacea, more than 100 Echinodermata, nearly 100 species of Coelenterata, and small collections of the different orders of insects. The collections of fossils and minerals are small, but steps have been taken to increase them. The Museum is open to the public from 12 noon to 5 p.m. on week-days, aud from 2 p.m. to 5 p.m. on Sundays, but students and travellers are admitted from 9 a.m. to 12 noon on application to the Curator. The scholarships of the New Zealand University are tenable by students attending the Uuiversity of Otago, and, in addition to these, two other scholarships specially connected with the latter institution have been established. These are the liichardson Scholarship, of the value of £40 a year, and the Scott Scholarship, of the value of £20 a year. Both are awarded by competition, and may be held for a period of three years. The Bichardson Scholarship. —The subjects for examination, with the marks showing the relative value number of each, are the following : — English... ... ... 150 Latin ... ... ... 200 Arithmetic ... ... 150 Greek ... ... ... 100 Geometry —Books I. aud 11. ... 100 Geography and History ... 100 Algebra... ... ... 100 Natural Science or Chemistry ... 100 Competitors must have attended for two years some school in the Provincial District of Otago and Southland, and for one year the High School of Dunedin ; age must not exceed eighteen. The scholarship is tenable for three years, and is at present of the value of £40 per annum. Present holder : W. D. Milne. The next competition will take place in May, 1880. The Scott Scholarship is competed for at the matriculation examination, with additional questions in English, aud special prominence given to that subject. The scholarship is tenable for tbree years; its present value is £20 per annum. Present holder :A. Montgomery. The next competition will take place in May, 1881. School of Mines. The session is the same as in the Arts course, commencing on the first day of May, and lasting for six months continuously. The mode of instruction is by systematic courses of lectures in the prescribed branches of study in connection with written aud oral examinations, by practical work in the laboratories, and also, according to circumstances and opportunities, by inspection of mines and field excursions. The classes are open to all persons over fifteen years of age. There is no entrance examination, but students enrolling themselves are expected to possess a fair knowledge of English and arithmetic, as well as some acquaintance with elementary mathematics, since otherwise they will derive little benefit from the lectures, and can scarcely hope to pass the examinations which are held at the termination of each year's course. The fees are the same as those charged in the Arts course—namely, three guineas for each course of lectures occupying not less than three hours per week during the whole session ; one guinea and a half for any course occupying two hours per week ; and one guinea for a course of one hour per week. In addition to the class fees, students will be required to pay a college fee of one guinea per session. All fees must be paid, in advance, to the Registrar. There are five divisions in the Mining School—namely, the mining, tho metallurgical, the geological, the mine-surveying, and tho assaying divisions. In the first three divisions the course of study extends through three years, and students who pass the examinations in any of these divisions will

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obtain the distinction or title of " Associate of the School of Mines, Otago." In tho last two divisions the course of study is for two years, and students who pass successfully through these courses will be entitled to receive certificates of " Mining Surveyor," and " Metallurgical Chemist and Assayer," respectively.

TIME-TABLE FOR 1879.

* Students are requested to attend the Junior Laboratory for only one hour a day. Both hours are given for the convenience of students. 2. Memorandum of Proceedings. Sir, — University of Otago, 4th February, 1879. In conformity with your communication of the 23rd January (the receipt of which I telegraphed to you), I now enclose a memorandum of such information as will be comprised in my next report to His Excellency tbe Governor. Should the Royal Commission require further information, I shall of course be ready to answer any questions the Commission may address to me. I have, <fee, H. S. Chapman, The Rev. AY. J. Habens, Chancellor. Secretary, Royal Commission on the University, &c, Wellington. University of Otago, 4th February, 1879. Memoeandum of the proceedings of the University since the date of the last report: — The session opened as usual on the lst of May. Number of students—lS77: 76, of whom 9 matriculated. Number of students—lß7B : 77, of whom 9 matriculated. Numbers Attending the Several Classes.- —1877 —English Language and Literature, 11; Latin, 18; Greek, 0; Mathematics and Natural Philosophy, 36; Mental and Moral Science and Political Economy, 13 ; Chemistry, 11; Mineralogy, 3 ; Anatomy, 0; Zoology, 0 ; Geology, 4 ; Botany, 1; Law, 10; French, 0; German, 7: total, 114. 1878 —English Language and Literature, 10; Latin, 26 ; Greek, 5 ; Mathematics and Natural Philosophy, 28; Mental and Moral Science and Political Economy, 23; Chemistry, 13; Mineralogy, 0; Anatomy, 5; Zoology, 5; Geology, 0 ; Botany, 0 ; Law, 7 ; French, 0 ; German, 6 : total, 128. Medical School. —In the last report an intimation was given that the Medical School was then in operation, and consisted of the following classes: —1. Anatomy, Professor Scott; 2. Chemistry, Professor Black; 3. Natural History, Professor Hutton. An assurance was at the same time given that a lecturer on surgery would be appointed, since which tbe Council has elected Dr. AVilliam Brown to the Chair of Systematic Surgery, conditionally that his lectures are recognized by the University Court of the University of Edinburgh. School of Mines.- —By reference to the last report it will be seen that orders were sent Home for the necessary appliances and teaching material for the School of Mines: advices have been received of their shipment, and they may shortly be expected to arrive. The Professor of Mineralogy and Metallurgy will therefore be fully prepared to commence his classes on the lst of May. A voluminous report on the organization of the School of Mines, drawn up by the Professorial Board, is sent herewith. Proposed New Chair. —The Council, having been informed of the intention of the Synod of the Presbyterian Church to establish a second Chair in the University,, took the subject into consideration on the 13th July, 1878, when a resolution, of which the following is a copy, was adopted, viz.: — "' This Council, having learned that the Presbyterian Synod of Otago and Southland resolved at its meeting in January last to erect a second Chair in the University of Otago, express their gratification at the prospect of another Chair, and also their opinion that a Chair of English language and literature,

MONDAY. Tuesday. Wednesday. Th.bsday. Eeiday. 9.0 9.30 9.30 10.0 10.30 11.30 11.30 11.30 12.30 12.30 2.0 3.30 2.30 3.30 2.30 4.0 2.30 4.30 Law (Senior) Junior Latin Adv. Mathematics Mining Geology ... Junior Greek Senior Latin Anatomy Mining (2nd year) Senior Greek Surgery Zoology Law (Junior) Junior Latin Adv. Mathematics Mining (2nd year) Junior Greek English Anatomy Mineralogy Junior Latin Adv. Mathematics Mining Geology ... Junior Greek Senior Latin Anatomy Mineralogy Senior Greek Surgery Zoology Law (Senior) Junior Latin Adv. Mathematics Mining (2nd year) Junior Greek English Anatomy Mineralogy Senior Greek Surgery Law (Junior). Junior Latin. Adv. Mathematics. Mining Geology. Junior Greek. Senior Latin. Anatomy. Mineralogy. English. Surgery. Surgery Zoology Petrography ■ ... Mining (3rd year) Palaeontology Use of th e Plo wpipe and Determinative Mineralogy Palaeontology. 3.30 4.30 4.30 4.30 5.30 5.30 5.30 6.30 6.30 7.30 8.0 2nd Mathematics... *Junior Laboratory JuniorMat hematics Political Economy * Junior Laboratory Jun. Mental Science Chemistry Junior German ... Prin. of Piology ... Mining (3rd year) 2nd Mathematics... Junior Laboratory Junior Mathematics Junior Laboratory Jun. Mental Science Chemistry Sen. Mental Science Metallurgy Mining (3rd year) 2nd Mathematics... Junior Laboratory Junior Mathematics Political Economy Junior Laboratory Jun. Mental Science Chemistry Junior German ... Physical Geology... 2nd Mathematics... Junior Laboratory Junior Mathematics Junior Laboratory Jun. Mental Science Chemistry Sen. Mental Science Metallurgy 2nd Mathematics. Jun. Laboratory. Jun. Mathematics. Political Economy. Jun. Laboratory. Jun. Mental Science. Chemistry. Sen. Mental Science. Metallurgy.

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and history of the same, together with constitutional history, in the present circumstances of the University, would be of the greatest service to the higher education." In acknowledging the receipt of the above resolution, the Clerk of the Synod, on the 18th January, 1879, intimates that after the most respectful consideration the Synod could not see its way to adopt the recommendation, and had resolved to appoint a Chair of moral philosophy and political economy. At a special meeting of Council held on the 20th January, to consider the action of the Synod, the following resolution was unanimously adopted, viz.: — " The Council, having already appointed a Professor of Mental and Moral Philosophy and Political Economy, at the request of the Trustees under 'The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 1866,' by whom the Professor was nominated, and further being advised by the Professorial Board that the arrangements for teaching these branches are sufficient, consider it inexpedient to appoint a second Professor to teach the same subjects in the University, and they accordingly respectfully decline the proposal now made by the Synod." Besolutions of Brofessorial Board. —" That, with reference to the proposal made at the last meeting of the Synod of the Otago Presbyterian Church to found a Chair of moral philosophy and political economy in the University, it be represented to the Council, — " 1. That moral philosophy is now taught in the University as a leading subject in the department of Mental Science, to which a two years' course has been allotted in the curriculum of study. " 2. That political economy is also taught as a separate subject in the University, the course occupying three hours per week. " 3. That the provision which has thus been already made for instruction in moral philosophy and political economy is sufficient for existing requirements ; and that it would not be possible to afford longer time for these subjects than is now allotted to them without extending for another year the duration of the period of study. "4. That, in view of the fact that the patronage would be in the hands of an ecclesiastical body, the institution, in present circumstances, of a Chair of moral philosophy could not fail to give rise to an impression throughout the colony that it was intended to subserve sectarian or ecclesiastical purposes ; and that such an impression, even although unfounded, would be highly injurious to the present welfare and future prospects of the University. " 5. That, in the interests of higher education, and in order to make the course of instruction in the Arts Faculty reasonably complete, and thereby enable students to pass successfully the examinations of the New Zealand University, the Chairs which are really and indeed urgently needed are a Chair of physical science and a Chair of English language and literature ; and that the foundation of a second professorship in the department of Mental Science, while no provision was made for instruction in physical science, which is the basis of all the sciences, and while only an inadequate provision was made for the study of the English language, which (to our students) is the most important of all the languages, would weaken public confidence in the wise conduct of the affairs of the University." Besolved (unanimously), " That, on the grounds specified, the Council be earnestly recommended to refuse its consent to the founding of the proposed Chair of moral philosophy and political economy, which in the opinion of this Board would not merely be superfluous, but would even be prejudicial to the best interests of the University." Dissociation of the University of Otago from the University of New Zealand. —At a special meeting of the Council held on the sth December, 1878, for the consideration of the above, the following resolution was unanimously adopted:— " That this Council make application in the usual way for a Royal charter, and that the Chancellor, Vice-Chancellor, and Judge Bathgate be a Committee to prepare the necessary papers for the approval of this Council." H. S. Chaeman. 3. Statement as to Reserves. Sic, — University of Otago, 17th February, 1879. Your communication of the 29th January did not reach me until the 10th of this month, and I then acknowledged the receipt by telegram. I now proceed to furnish full details of the several properties granted to the University as endowments. The several pastoral properties about to be mentioned were in the first instance held by the several tenants under the Waste Lands Act of 1866, the several tenants paying for the same the assessment of 7d. per head per sheep depasturing on the runs. The amounts given below are the latest amounts under such assessment ;— 1. Bare wood. —This property consists of 30,000 acres. The last assessment was £375. It was then leased for ten years ending in October, 18S0, at a fixed rent of £500 per annum, and it is anticipated that at the termination of the present lease it will yield £1,500 per annum. 2. Bui-wood and Mararoa. —-This run comprises 70,000 acres, the assessment of which was £824 14s. 4d. In January, 1870, it was let for twenty-one years, ending lst January, 1891, at £1,300 per annum. It is anticipated that at the expiration of the present lease the property will yield an increased rental of £2,200 per annum. 3. Benmore. —100,000 acres. Last assessment, £955 14s. Id. Held under three leases, expiring in 1882, 1883, and 1884. It is anticipated that as these leases expire the property will yield at least double the present rental. 4. Forest Hill. —10,000 acres. Leased for fourteen years, ending 10th February, 1887, at £343 15s. per annum. It is certain that at the end of the eight years during which the present lease has to run the property will be more valuable, but I am unable to give any precise estimate. 5. The Museum Endowment. —AVhen this endowment was made by the Government in consideration of the University taking over the management of the Museum, the annual value was estimated by valuators at £600. Last year a lease for fourteen years from the lst January was submitted to public competition by auction, and yielded £916 13s. 4d. Of this sum the University has to pay annually to

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the Committee of the Athen_eum the sum of £91 13s. 4d., leaving to the University the net sum of £825 per annum. 6. The University Building was sold in 1877, with the sanction of the Government, for the sum of £27,000, the whole of which is now in course of being expended in the erection of new and commodious buildings ou the University site, commonly known as " The Old Botanical Gardens." 7. The University Site. —The site originally designed for the University was the old Cemetery, but this was afterwards exchanged for the present site, which is the block bounded by Castle Street, Albany Street, Leith Street, and St. David Street. It is, in fact, two blocks divided by Union Street, and measures ten acres. It is on the northern portion, between Union and St. David Streets, that the present buildings are in course of erection. The University Council has received from the Government authority to grant building leases along the frontage in Albany Street, from which the University will derive a small revenue, increasing when the first leases expire. 8. Professorial Endowment. —The Church Trustees have endowed one Professorship, that of Mental and Moral Philosophy, at £600 per annum ; and the funds at the disposal of the Church Trustees are now sufficient to endow another Chair at the same annual remuneration. 9. Last year the Government granted the University £500 a year for a limited number of years (dependent of course upon an annual vote) in aid of the School of Mines then contemplated and since established, together with a sum of £500 for outfit, but not renewable. 10. There are also two University scholarships—the Richardson Scholarship and tho Scott Scholarship—from funds unconnected with the Government. All the above endowments are for the general purposes of the University, except that for the Museum above described. The grant in aid of the School of Mines was on a condition also, which has beeu fulfilled. I believe the above information will be all that the Royal Commission requires, but, if any other information or explanation should be deemed necessary, I shall be happy to afford it, though I believe that I have exhausted the subject. I have, &c, The Rev. W. J. Habens, H. S. Chapman, Secretary, Royal Commission on the University, &c, Wellington. Chancellor. 4. Beplies to Questions in Schedule B. Copies of examination papers, annual and for matriculation, with names of examiners: Appended hereto, so far as can be obtained. (Not printed.—Sec. R. Com.) Number of Students, Sfc. —The Eegistrar of the University of New Zealand is the proper person to whom application should be made for this information. The following, however, may be accepted as approximately correct: —

The number of undergraduates now on the roll is as follows: In their first year, 16 ; bave kept one year's term, 11; have kept two years' terms, 6 ; have kept three years' terms, 4 : total, 37. Time-table : Appended hereto. (See above.) Undergraduates attending in each subject, session 1878:— Latin. —Two classes, five hours each per week —fifteen undergraduates attending. Greek. —Junior class, five hours per week; senior class, three hours per week —two undergraduates attending. English. —First class, three hours per week —six undergraduates attending. Mathematics. —Three classes, five hours each per week —seventeen undergraduates attending. Mental Science. —First class, five hours per week; second class, three hours per week —ten undergraduates attending. Chemistry. —Three classes, five hours each per week; laboratory opeu to students all day—niue undergraduates attending. Zoology and Biology. —One class, seven and a half hours per week ; one class, one hour per week —four undergraduates attending. German. —Two classes, two hours each per week—one undergraduate attending. Law. —One class, four hours per week —three undergraduates attending. Anatomy. —Two classes, five hours each per week ; dissecting room open to students all day—five undergraduates attending. Number of Terms. —One (annual). Length of session: Six months. The undergraduate course covers three sessions, each of which is constituted by attendance on three full courses of lectures on subjects prescribed for tbe B.A. degree. Income available for University Instruction. —For the year 1878-79 the income was as follows :— £ s. d. Rents from endowments ... ... ... ... ... 3,099 9 1 Government subsidy, School of Mines ... ... ... 500 0 0 Church Trustees, Mental Science Chair ... ... ... 600 0 0 Class fees 416 17 0 Total £4,616 6 1 4—H. 1. (Ap.)

Year. I I Entered for Degree. Gained Degree. Senior Third-Year Scholarships. Scholarships. Honours. Prizes. 1875 1876 1877 1878 I i 2 1 1 4 | 2 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1

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Bemuneration to Teachers. —Professors, £GOO per annum each and class fees ; Law Lecturer, £50 per annum and class fees ; German Lecturer, class fees only. Scholarships. —None provided by institution. The Council hold the following in trust: Richardson Scholarship, £40 per annum ; Scott Scholarship, £20 per annum. The Miscellaneous Expenses for purposes of University instruction were as follows : — £ s. d. Fittings ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 164 1 10 Apparatus and chemicals ... ... ... ... ... 819 Appliances for School of Mines ... ... ... ... 406 8 6 Total ... ... ... ... ... £578 12 1 Note. —The sum of £250 was paid for apparatus and chemicals on the 3rd April, three days after the close of the financial year. A.—Canterbury College (founded and incorporated bt " Canterbury College Ordinance, 1873.")

1. Extracts from Calendar, 1879. TIME-TABLE FOR YEAR 1879.

Professors, etc Professors —Classics and English Literature : J. M. Brown, M.A., late Snell Exhibitioner, Ball. Coll., Oxoii. Mathematics and Natural Philosophy: C. H. H. Cook, M.A., late Fellow of St. John's College, Cambridge. Chemistry and Physics: A. AY. Bickerton, F.C.S., Associate and late Senior Queen's Scholar, Eoyal School of Mines. Geology and Palaeontology : Julius yon Haast, Ph.D., F.R.S. Lecturers —Biology: Llewellyn Powell, M.D., F.L.S. Jurisprudence: C. J. Foster, LL.D., and late Member of Senate of the University of London. French: Rev. C. Turrell, M.A. German: J. yon Tunzelmann. Director of Museum: Professor yon Haast. Director of School of Agriculture : AY. E. Ivey, F.C.S. Registrar: F. G. Stedman. School of Agriculture. Object. —To afford students the opportunity of acquiring a thorough knowledge of the practice and science of agriculture. Locality. —The site chosen for the institution is near the township and railway station of Lincoln, in a good farming district, about twelve miles from the City of Christchurch.

!oues. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thuesday. Feiday. Saturday. a.m. 7.45 to 8.45 Pass Greek (Translation) Honours and Pass Greek (Trans, and Comp.) German (University subjects) Pass Greek (Translation) Honours (Latin Trans. and Comp.) German (University subjects) Laboratory Class (Physics) 9 to 10 Honours Chemistry Honours Greek (Literary) Laboratory Class (Ch.) Honours Greek (Literary) Jurisprudence ... Laboratory Class (Ch.) Conic Sections, &c. Honours Chemistry Elementary Mechanics and Hydrostatics. Senior Chemistry Conic Sections, &c. Geometry Jurisprudence Senior Chemistry Conic Sections, &c. Laboratory Class (Physics) German (Junior) Trigonometry. Otoll Geometry P.M. 12 toi 1 to 2 ,ltol2 Physics (Senior Electricity) Honours Mathematics German (Junior) Honours Mathematics Physics (Senior Electricity) Honours Mathematics Honours Mathematics Pass Latin (Trans, and Comp.) Elementary Chemistry and Physics. Pass Latin (Translation). Honours Latin (Literary). French (Elementary). French (Junior). French (Senior). 2 to 3 3 to 4 4 to 5 Botany German (Senior) Physics (Junior Electricity—lst term) Physics (Junior, Sound and Light —2nd term) Algebra Physics (Senior Heat) Honours Latin (Trans. and Comp.) English Literature (Literary) Agricultural Chemistry Geology (Senior) Geology (Junior) Zoology French (Elementary) French (Junior) Botany (Elementary) Trigonometry French (Senior) Botany German (Senior) Physics (Junior Electricity— lst term) Physics (Junior Sound and Light —2nd term) Algebra Phvsics (Senior Heat) Pass Latin (Translation) Geology (Senior) Geology (Junior) Zoology 5 to 6 Chemistry (Junior) Elementary Mechanics and Hydrostatics Greek and Roman History Chemistry (Junior) 6 to 7 7 to 8 Honours Latin (Literary) English Literature (Philological) 8 to 9

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The School Buildings, of brick and freestone, are now in course of erection. They will comprise lecture theatre to seat eighty students, library and museum, chemical laboratories, dining-hall, separate bedrooms for twenty resident students, with lavatories, bathrooms, &c, &c, together with quarters for the Director of the school, and all the necessary outbuildings. The School Farm is 410 acres iv extent. The land is of various qualities, and has been so selected that it may be divided into three several portions, adapted for as many different styles of farming. One portion consists of rich pasture, admirable for dairying purposes and the rearing of cattle ; a second is a freer-working loamy soil, well suited for arable farming combined with sheep feeding; whilst a third portion is light thin soil overlying shingle, land similar in character to a large extent of the Canterbury Plain. Farm Buildings of the most approved construction will be erected. These are planned to bo as complete as possible, whilst including only such accommodation as it is thought will be required in a country with the climate of New Zealand. The Course of Instruction, which will proba.bly extend over three years, will include —1. Agriculture— practical and theoretical; 2. Chemistry; 3. Natural history; 4. Veterinary medicine and surgery; 5. Land-surveying and draining, mechanics, mensuration, and book-keeping. It is expected that the school will be ready for the reception of students by the end of the current year. The Canterbury Museum. This institution, incorporated with the Canterbury College, was begun in 1861 in connection with the Geological Survey of Canterbury. It was first opened to the public in 1867, arranged in three rooms in the Government Buildings. A separate building having been erected in the Domain, the collections were transferred to it, the opening taking place on the Ist of October, 1870. This was the nucleus of the pile of buildings now forming the Museum, for which the late Provincial Council repeatedly voted ample funds. It now consists of one hall 90 feet long and 45 feet broad, with a gallery all round, containing the foreign zoological collections, and of another hall 70 feet long and 35 feet broad, in which the New Zealand collections together with the minerals and rocks from foreign countries are exhibited. A room 30 feet long and 30 feet broad is mainly used for osteological collections, and another 50 feet long and 30 feet broad for the palseontological series, whilst a third room 60 feet long and 30 feet broad contains the casts of statues and reliefs, and a fourth room 80 feet long and 30 feet broad is devoted to foreign ethnological collections, both pre-historic and historic. The collections illustrating the habits and customs of the former and present indigenous inhabitants of New Zealand are placed in a Maori house, originally intended for the Ngatiporou Tribe, North Island, and, finally, a room 16 feet long and broad contains the herbarium. The collections, containing numerous series of types, obtained from the first scientific authorities in each branch, consist of upwards of 100,000 specimens. The Museum is open to the public every week-day except Monday, from 10 a.m. till 5 p.m., from September lst to April 30th ; Sundays, from 2 till 5 p.m. From May lst to August 31st, from 10 a.m. till 4 p.m., in every week-day except Monday; Sundays, from 2 till 4.30 p.m. On Mondays the Museum is not opened until 12 noon. 2. Number of Students in 1878. Twenty-four matriculated students of the University and fifty-eight others. 3. For statement as to Beserves, see return made by J. Marshman, Esq., in Appendix 111. G. 4. Replies to Questions in Schedule B. 1. Copies of examination papers forwarded. Names of examiners : Professors Brown, Bickerton, Cook, Dr. Foster, Rev. C. Turrell, Mr. J. yon Tunzelmann. 2. Number of students who have entered for and gained degrees, 2. Four matriculated students have passed only the first part of the B.A. degree. Another student, who has migrated to this College from Christ's College, gained a junior scholarship, passed the compulsory section of the B.A. degree, and has gained a senior scholorship. Senior scholarships, 4, in addition to the one already mentioned. Third-year scholarships, 2. Honours and prizes : The Bowen Prize, 1876 and 1877, was gained by students of this College. 3. Undergraduates on the roll, 28—4 of whom have kept three years' terms, 4 two years, 9 one year, and 11 are in their first year. 4. Time-table [see above]. Names of teachers forwarded [see above]. Amount of work done by each matriculated student, stated in terms of attendance per week: —Student No. 1, nil; No. 2, 15 hours; No. 3, 18; No. 4, 11 ; No. 5, nil ; No. 6, 14; No. 7, nil; No. 8, nil; No. 9, 14 ; No. 10, 13 ; No. 11, 13 ; No. 12, 4 ; No. 13, 14 ; No. 14,15 ; No. 15, 8 ; No. 16, 15 ; No. 17, nil; No. 18, 5 ; No. 19, nil; No. 20, nil; No. 21, 11; No. 22, 9 ; No. 23, 10 ; No. 24, 19. 5. Number of terms, 2. First term, from 3rd March to 21st Juno ; second term, from 21st July to sth March. 6. Income available for purposes of University instruction,* £6,204 7s. 2d. 7. Remuneration to teachers on account of University work, £2,578 10s. 6d. 8. Scholarships, prizes, aud other rewards provided by the institution for the advancement of University education: Six exhibitions of £20 each. 9. Last year's miscellaneous expenses for purposes of University instruction, £2,506 15s. 7d. This includes all expenditure except payments to professors, lecturers, and exhibitioners. * The balance in hand, £834 14s. Gd., and Government grant, £1,578, at the commencement of the year 1878, were exceptional receipts, which will not again occur after the present year. The amount in hand at the close of the year 1878 will all be required to meet necessary expenditure up till lst May, when tho rent from the pastoral reserves will be received.

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VI.—PAPERS RELATING TO THEOLOGICAL COLLEGES AFFILIATED TO THE UNIVERSITY. A. —St. John's College, Auckland. No written statement supplied, but see evidence of the Bishop of Auckland, the Rev. R. Burrows, the Rev. Dr. Kinder, and the Hon. Colonel Haultain. The College estate was acquired by purchase, and the trust is as follows: " For the site of and towards the support of the said College of St. John tho Evangelist, near Auckland, and for the education in the said College of candidates for holy orders, and for the instruction and training in the said College of the youth of both races in moral aud industrious habits, and for the education of all the students therein in the principles of the Christian religion according to the doctrine and discipline of the Church of England : subject to all such rules and regulations as may from time to time be made by or by authority of the General Synod of the Branch of the United Church of England and Ireland in New Zealand concerning the constitution, government, and discipline of the said College, and the course of study to be followed therein, and for insuring the good order and efficiency thereof, and otherwise for securing the due execution of the trusts and purposes aforesaid ; and, until such rules and regulations shall be so made concerning the matters aforesaid, subject to all such rules and regulations as may from time to time be made concerning the same by the trustees for the time being." Dr. Kinder's evidence shows that he is the master (unassisted) ; that the College is intended to provide a course of instruction in such subjects as are required for University scholarships, for the Civil Service, and for the preliminary legal examinations, and especially to prepare young men for holy orders; that one student of the College has graduated in the New Zealand University; that there are now seven students, all residing in the College, and that one of them is an undergraduate of the New Zealand University. B.—AVesley College, Three Kings. 1. Letter from Chairman of Auckland Wesleyan District Meeting. Sic,— Auckland, 14th February, 1879. In reply to your letter of 29th January, 1879, requesting the trustees of AVesley College, Three Kings, to send a statement as to the condition, value, and application of the Three Kings endowments, I have the honour, by direction of the trustees, to forward the following statement:— 1. No grants of money are now received from the public estate for the support of the College. 2. The trustees hold certain lands at Three Kings and Grafton Road as endowments for educational purposes in connection with the AVesleyan Church. 3. The land at Grafton Road was granted in 1844, "to be used for the purposes of a Wesleyan Native institution," as was also the first grant at Three Kings, consisting of 192 acres. The subsequent grants were made available for children of all races in the Pacific Ocean. 4. These endowments are held in trust under the provisions of the AVesleyan Methodist model deed, which was duly enrolled, and is numbered 9252 a, in the Auckland Register of Deeds, and legalized by "The Religious, Charitable, and Educational Trusts Act, 1856." 5. The land at Three Kings is leased in small farms, except 45 acres reserved for the use of the institution, and produces a yearly rental of £299. The land at Grafton Road is let on building leases, and produces a yearly rental of £146, all let by public competition. 6. The value of the lands the trustees consider to be determined by the amount of rent obtained; in tbe case of the Three Kings by public tender, and in the case of Grafton Road by public auction. 7. Application of the Endowments. —From the date when the endowments were available to the time when the Native tribes came into collision with the Government, and the country was disturbed by tho Native war, a period embracing about twenty years, a large and successful Native and half-caste school was conducted under the superintendence of a Wesleyan minister, according to the principles stated in a memorandum received from Sir George Grey, who was then Governor of the colony, dated May 13th, 1853. Annual reports of the work done, and accounts of expenditure, were furnished to the Government, and a Government inspection was annually appointed : those reports and accounts will be found in the Blue Books of tho colony. During the above period the Wesleyan Missionary Society did not expend less than £5,000 iv connection with the Three Kings Institution, in addition to tho Government grants, besides a large sum in aiding primary schools in the country districts. 8. After the Native scholars were dispersed by the war the school was occupied for a time by half-caste children, and by orphans and children of destitute Europeans, aided by a capitation grant of £10 from the Provincial Government, the entire cost of boarding and educating being at the rate of £17 per head. AVhen the provincial grant was withdrawn the school was closed. 9. After the school was closed the land was let at a rental of £250 per annum, and the rents applied to Native education, distributed among the various mission stations in conformity with Sir George Grey's memorandum,* which provides, " That the funds appropriated to the purposes of schools supported from the Government grant shall be administered by the Auckland District Meeting ;" the trustees considering that such application of funds at their disposal would, under the circumstances, be the best way of fulfilling their trust. 10. As regards the present application of the endowments, the rents, amounting to £445 per annum, are applied exclusively to the support of a Native institution— i.e., for boarding and training Native teachers, and educating a select number of Native youths, drafted from the primary schools. Combined with Native education is an English department for students who are preparing for the AVesleyan ministry. No part of the expense of this department is taken from the endowments for Native education. Since the institution was reopened in this form, the governors have expended in initial expenses, for repairs of buildings, furniture, &c, and in salaries, boarding, &c, tho sum of £3,163 14s. 2d., of * See the Key. T. Buddies evidence, question 709, page 34.

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which sum the trustees have paid only £1,111: the balance of £2,052 14s. 2d. was provided by funds obtained from AVesleyan Church properties, the Auckland Wesleyan congregations, an annual grant from the AVesleyan Conference, and from the students' contributions (as per Statement of Income and Expenditure enclosed). The English students devote a portion of their time to teaching the Native students the elements of an English education. 11. The trustees further certify that they consider they are faithfully applying the endowments to the purposes for which they received them in trust. Signed on behalf of the trustees. Rev. W. J. Habens, Thomas Buddle, Secretary to the Royal Commission. Chairman, Auckland AVesleyan District Meeting.

THREE KINGS INSTITUTION, in account with the Managing Committee. Income.

*In addition to this amount, the trustcea of the property expended largo sums in order to prepare the place for occupation, without reference to this Committee. f This trust was originally a private proprietary, which acquired the property by purchase Bolely. The Girls' High School is now in occupation by lease. Auckland, 10th February, 1879. H. H. Lawey, Treasurer. 2. Letter from Principal of College, in reply to Letter of 20th January. Sic, — AVesley College, Three Kings, 30th January, 1879. I have the honour to enclose, for the information of the Commissioners and the" Minister of Education, as invited by yours of 21st December, 1878, and 20th Jauuary instant, replies to inquiries respecting the objects and operations of AVesley College. I suppose you can obtain the examination papers from the Registrar of the University, if required ; and the Rev. A. Reid, of Wellington, can furnish you with the results of the examination of the theological students. Any further information you require I shall be glad to supply. I have, &c, Thomas Buddle, Rev. W. J. Habens, Principal, AVesley College, Three Kings. Secretary, Commission on University Education, &c. Answees to Inquiries contained in the Education Department Schedule, so far as they are applicable to AVesley College. 1. The College was opened in June, 1870, as a theological and training institute, for the purpose of training young men, both English and Maori, for the AVesleyan ministry, aud for general educational work.

Sources oe Income. To meet Initial Expenses. 1876. 3 Quarters. 1877. 4 Quarters. 1878. 4 Quarters. Totals. £ s. d. £ ». d. £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1. Native. .rustees of educational properties 150 0 0* 180 0 0 325 0 0 (106 0 0\ 1 350 0 0 j 1,111 0 0 2. EUROPEAN. .. For Principal's salary : Trustees of Wesley College, Aucklandf ... Auckland Circuit Stewards !. Eor English students : Home Mission Fund ... Students' personal contributions 1. Miscellaneous : Private subscriptions ... Farm produce, &c. 758 10 3 93 15 0 112 10 0 93 6 8 26 0 0 125 0 0 150 0 0 76 9 4 151 10 0 125 0 0 150 0 0 140 0 0 42 0 0 1,102 5 3 412 10 0 309 16 0 219 10 0 8 12 11 S 12 11 908 10 3 514 4 7 I 827 19 4 j 913 0 0 3,163 14 2 Fxpcndii .ure. Items oe Expenditure. Initial Expenses. 1876. 3 Quarters. 1877. 4 Quarters. 1878. 4 Quarters. Totals. Repairs and alterations to buildings, &e. Furniture, &c. Salaries, &c. Boarding expenses ... Educational expenses Miscellaneous, viz., students' quarterage, farm expenses, and other charges £ s. d. 590 5 5 298 11 4 £ s. d. 41 2 10 267 17 0 116 5 7 12 10 8 112 4 0 £ s. d. 12 9 6 53 5 2 446 9 0 195 10 9 11 15 7 78 6 6 £ s. d. 17 2 6 51 5 5 443 13 0 208 13 3 22 9 10 81 14 5 £ s. d. 619 17 5 444 4 9 1,157 19 0 520 9 7 46 16 1 272 4 11 888 16 9 550 0 1 797 16 6 824 18 5 3,061 11 ! Balance carried forwar ■d to 1879 102 2 I £3,163 14 1

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2. The staff consists of the Principal, who is theological tutor, teacher of moral science aud of other subjects; and a classical and mathematical tutor (Rev. R. Kidd, LL.D.). The English students give a portion of their time to teaching the Maori students English reading, writing, arithmetic, grammar, geography, &c. 3. Tho number of English students in residence last year was —First quarter, 5 ; second quarter, 4 ; third and fourth quarters, 3. Four English students (non-resident) passed the matriculation examination iv July last, three of whom have kept terms and passed the annual College examination. 4. Maori students in residence during the year were—First, second, aud third quarters, 8 ; fourth quarter, 5. Three had to return home on account of sickness. 5. Ages of students : Under eighteen years, 1 ; all the rest above eighteen years. 6. Subjects of study: English, Latin, Greek, history, arithmetic, algebra, Euclid, theology, and moral science. The Maori students, in addition to the subjects noted in No. 2, have received Biblical lessons, embracing Scripture doctrine, history, geography, biography ; manners, customs, and laws of the Jews ; life and writings of St. Paul; and other subjects in both Old and New Testaments. They are taught singing on Curweu's Tonic Sol-Fa system, which they read with comparative ease. 7. The examiners for matriculation were a Board appointed by the Senate of the University. Examiners for theological students, a Board appointed by the AVesleyan Conference. 8. Examination papers (not printed) have been forwarded to the Registrar of the University; the theological papers to the Board appointed. 9. The present buildings contain a lecture-room 32 feet by 24 feet, class-rooms, dining-room, dormitories, &c, affording accommodation for six English and twenty Maori students, aud residence for the Principal. They stand on 45 acres of land, in a healthy situation, within four miles of Auckland. The Native students arc occupied in the garden and farming operations from 2 to 5 p.m. 10. The income of the governing body for 187S bas been as follows : Grants from trustees of Church properties, £275 ; from the funds of the AVesleyan Conference, £200 : total for expenses of English students, £475. For the support and education of Maori students, £375, from trustees of Three Kings endowment for Maori education. Expenditure as follows : — £ s. d. Salaries ... ... ... ... .., ... ... 443 13 0 Food ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 208 13 3 Furniture, &c. ... ... ... ... ... ... 5155 Books and Stationery ... ... ... ... ... 22 9 10 Miscellaneous ... ... ... ... ... ... 84 14 5 £810 15 11 The Maori students are supported entirely from funds received from the proceeds of land held in trust for Maori education, and the English students from a separate and distinct source, as above. Thomas Buddle, Principal, AVesley College, Three Kings. 3. Letter from Principal of College, in reply to Letter of 17th February. Sic,— AVesley College, Three Kings, lst March, 1879. I have the honour to forward the information you requested in Schedules A and B, accompanying your letter of 17th February, as far as the questions relate to AVesley College. I have, &c, Thomas Buddle, Rev. W. J. Habens, Chairman of AVesleyan District Meeting. Secretary, Royal Commission, &c.

SCHEDULE A. TIME-TABLE. Maori Students.

:ours. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. A.M. 9 to 1 English : Reading Grammar Arithmetic Geography Writing Gardening, Recreation, &c. Bible Lessons : Old and New Testament in Maori, readingEnglish and translating Church History Gardening, Recreation, &c. Maori, English Preparing Lessons ... English, as on Monday Bible Lessons: Sacred History Geography Manners and Customs of Ancients English, as on Monday. 2 to 5 Gardening, Recreation, &c. Church History Maori, English. Preparing Lessons. 4 to 5 7 to 9 Preparing Lessons... Preparing Lessons ... Singing Preparing Lessons ... Theological Students. 9 to 1 4 to 5 7 to 9 Teaching Maori Pupils Preparing Lessons, and General Studies Classics and Mathe- Moral Science unities Homiletics Theology English Maori Language Preparing Lessons, j Preparing Lessons, and General Studies i aud General Studies Classics and Mathematics Preparing Lessons, and General Studies Theology. Church History. English. Maori Language. Preparing Lessons, andGeneralStudies.

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Foundation, &c.: The endowment is land granted by the Government, amounting to about 800 acres, the principal portion of which is leased, and produces a rental of £445 per annum. The school was originally instituted for the training of Native ministers and teachers ; afterwards extended to general education for Maori, half-caste, and European children and youths of both sexes; and contained at one time 150 boarders. The Maori scholars w*ere dispersed by the Native war, but the school was continued for half-caste and European children until the funds failed, and it was closed from 1869 to 1876. The institution was reopened iv its present form in 1876. Duties, &c, of Principal: The duties of the Principal are —theological tutor, teacher of moral science, English and Maori language, general superintendent of the educational work, and house governor. Teachers, &c.: The Principal; salary, £270 per annum. Eev. R. Kidd, LL.D., classical and mathematical tutor ; salary, £105. The theological students who assist in the Native school. Library, &c.: The library contains books of reference, lexicons, dictionaries, text-books, classical, mathematical, scientific, historical, and theological, with maps, &c. Attendance: Eight English studeuts, four resident and four non-resident; eight Native students, all resident. Of the English students, three are from the Canterbury Province and five from Auckland. Of the Maori students, four are from Hokianga and four from Kaipara. All the resident students are in daily attendance ; the others five hours per week. Schedule B. Examination papers: Matriculation papers were prepared as follow:—Latin, by the Yen. Archdeacon Maunsell; Greek, by Dr. Kidd ; English, by the Principal; arithmetic, algebra, and Euclid, by Dr. Kidd ; history, by the Principal. The papers and answers were forwarded to the examiners, and not returned ; but each gave a certificate tbat the students had satisfactorily passed. The annual examination papers were all forwarded to the Registrar of the University. Students who have entered for degrees, &c.: Nil. Undergraduates now oil the roll: Three, who have all kept terms one year —namely, Charles F. Buddie, Edward Robertson, and Percy Scott Smallfield. Time-table : The undergraduates attend class five hours per week for classics and mathematics .- hour, 7 p.m. Length of Session : All the year except Christmas vacation. Income : Supplied by Governors according to requirements. Remuneration to teachers for University work :No distinction. See Schedule A. Scholarships, &c. : Nil. C.—Bishopdale Theological College, Nelson. The Bishop of Nelson's Beply to Questions in Schedules A and B. TnE Bishopdale Theological College is an institution for the purpose of training students to become clergymen in the Church of the Province of New Zealand, commonly called the Church of England, especially, but not exclusively, for the Diocese of Nelson. It has arisen gradually from the necessities of the case, and there is every reason to believe that it will continue, inasmuch as there must be such training institutions provided to satisfy the wants of the Church, arising from vacancies and extension, while the divided state of the colony, and the want of ready communication between the extremities and chief cities of the Islands, render the adoption of any one central or bi-central scheme Utopian, if not undesirable. If it were necessary for divinity students to go to the centres referred to, it would seem almost as easy, and in many respects preferable, to send them to England at once, where they would have genuine University training, which consists as much in its associations as in its teaching efficiency, which associations cannot be artificially produced in New Zealand. It is with this view, and to meet present wants, that the Bishop of Nelson has formed this institution and devoted himself to its development, assisted more or less by those whose names will be mentioned in the details. The institution, though affiliated, is, of course, wholly independent of the New Zealand University, and exists primarily because the New Zealand University has no divinity faculty. It is the wish, however, of the promoters of this institution that the students who are to be admitted to the ministry of the Church of England in New Zealand, as it is sometimes unavoidably but incorrectly styled, should be either those who have already received at least the ordinary B.A. degree, or should pursue their studies with a view to attaining that degree; and it is with this object that the institution sought affiliation with the New Zealand University, and thereby adds to the number of intending graduates, for the same students would not in all probability bave finished their studies in that direction had they been obliged to leave tbe diocese, and the institution in which they received their special theological training, for other places. The affiliation of such an institution therefore, undoubtedly, adds to the number of applicants for degrees, and, since the standard of such degrees is indefeasibly in tho hands of the University itself, there is no reason for any apprehension as to the maintenance of the standard on that score. AVith regard to the permanent foundation and stability of the College, it has an element of fixity in its being entitled to the benefit of two funds, according to the discretion of the Bishop of the diocese and the trustees. A sum of £3,000 is invested, the increase of which may be applied according to the Bishop's discretion, amongst other objects, to the education of the clergy. This produces about £220 per annum, and is applied accordingly. A further sum of £1,050 was collected by the present Bishop of Nelson, part of which is invested ;n land and part in mortgage, the interest of which is available for the stipend of a theological tutof

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or similar officer. Further sums are in course of receipt every year for the purpose of clerical education, which are invested. A location is also permanently secured, either by having it attached to the Bishop's residence, as at present, or by its being one of those buildings which may be built anywhere on the Bishopdale property, a clause being inserted with that object in the original trust deeds. Although, of course, wood buildings are essentially temporary, yet accommodation has been provided, which will last for many years, for as many students as are for the present likely to be in residence, while it is possible to increase tbem to any* extent, and to increase the staff at the same time. At present there are eight students attached to this institution, of whom three are undergraduates, one non-resident, and one occupying the post of assistant tutor in the elementary subjects, and in some subjects outside the University curriculum. The other students in the College have not yet applied for admission by the matriculation examination, but are about to do so shortly iv succession. The time-table, under these circumstances, contains many items outside the University course, as that course is not the only object by any means for which they are at College, but a subordinate, though, in the opinion of the present AVarden, a very important one. Class lectures are regularly given in classics and physical science, while the same and other subjects are also studied with the assistance of the AVarden and Assistant Tutor, as with a private tutor. Increased assistance in tuition may reasonably be expected to be attainable in proportion to the increase in the demand for it. Teachers in—Latin: C. H. Chepmell, Esq., M.A., Ch.Ch., Oxford. Botany and Physiology: Leonard Boor, Esq., F.R.C.S. German and French: Herr Harling. General Literature, Classics, and Mathematics : The Principal. The examining staff is strong, and embraces the following gentlemen in addition:—Rev. J. C. Andrew, M.A., Principal of Nelson College; Rev. S. Poole, M.A., examiner of Nelson College; Rev. C. 0. Mules, M.A., Cambridge; A ren. Archdeacon Thorpe; Rev. G. T. N. AVatkins, A.X.C., London. It is only due, however, to this and similar institutions to mention that, although the University of New Zealand has no theological faculty, yet there has been established, in connection with the General Synod of the Church of New Zealand, a regular scheme of examinations of four grades, conducted by members of the English Universities (for the most part) in New Zealand, in which the candidates are carefully and elaborately classified. The scheme is appended,* and has now been in existence four years. Considering the position and disadvantages arising from an inchoate scheme, the success of these examinations has been admitted by those qualified to judge, and there is no reason to doubt their permanence. Until there is some equivalent to the theological faculty, the ecclesiastical bodies will adopt some such scheme as the above, although it would, in the opinion of many, be better if the University of New Zealand was to follow the University of London, and give examinations in the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures and ecclesiastical history as such. The members of the Church will also naturally desire on the part of those who are to be ministers some certificate of attainment, whether by degree or license, or otherwise, and it would seem well if the University could agree with the ecclesiastical bodies to undertake the conferring of a guarantee of literary attainment, at least in some parts of the curriculum, which the University could take up without being committed to a different position from its present attitude. Library. —An extensive library at Bishopdale is accessible to the students, embracing varied branches of literature, by no means confined to theology. Diagrams, maps, and illustrations are largely supplied and in constant use. Since the foundation, eleven students have been on the roll of the College, and four others have resided temporarily and received tuition during their stay. There are three undergraduates on the roll at the present time—Rev. T. S. Grace, jun., Rev. A. H. Sedgwick, Rev. J. P. Kempthornc—in third, second, and first year respectively. The time-table for students in full residence : 7-7.45, preparation; 9-1, preparation, private tuition each student one hour daily ; 4.30-5.30, study, classical lecture or class ; 7-9, study, botanical and physiological lecture, on Mondays. Fees are paid to Classical Lecturer, and offered to but returned by the Lecturer on Botany. Fees are also offered in some cases to examiners, but their services are for the most part offered gratuitously. The Assistant Tutor has, in addition to other sources cf stipend, £100 per annum in connection with work done in the College. It is impossible to distinguish the sums actually paid for University instruction from the general working expenses of the institution. The same would bo expended if there was no University, but, at the same time, it may be considered expended at present in reference to that standard and object. D.—Christ's College, Canteebuey. (See Appendix VII.—E) VII.—INSTITUTIONS AFFILIATED TO THE UNIVERSITY, AND AFFORDING THE MEANS OF SECONDARY EDUCATION. A. —Auckland College and Geammae School. 1. The College was founded by His Excellency the Governor (Sir George Grey). The following is a copy of the grant :-~- Victoeia, by the grace of God of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith, and so forth : To all to whom these presents shall come, greeting : Wheeeas the allotments or parcels of land hereinafter particularly described, and intended to be hereby granted and conveyed, have been marked out and distinguished on the charts of the New Zea- . ———— _____—, _ — ___-_ „_ * Same as iv the Eev. Dr. Bander's evidence, question 1961, page 91.—Sec. E. Com.

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land Islands as college and grammar school reserved lands, as an endowment for or towards the maintenance and support of a college and grammar school or schools on the isthmus on which Auckland stands, if the funds suffice ; or otherwise as an endowment for or towards the maintenance and support of such grammar school or schools alone, which college or schools are to be always conducted on the following principles: lst. In addition to tho usual course of education in the English language and mathematics, and in such other branches of learning as the trustees for the time being may direct, all students attending such college or schools shall, if they desire it, receive instruction in the Greek and Latin languages. 2nd. Any grammar schools to be maintained or supported from this endowment shall, upon all school-days, not being half-holidays, be kept open for the purposes of instruction for such two hours in the evening between the hours of half-past six p.m. and ten o'clock p.m. as the trustees for the time being may direct. 3rd. Persons of all classes or races who may inhabit this colony are to be in all respects equally admitted to such college or schools. 4th. Such proportion of the studeuts or scholars in the college or schools maintained or supported under this endowment shall be free scholars as the trustees for the time being may deem compatible with the state of the funds of the trust: And whereas, for the better management of the said college and grammar school reserved lands, for the framing of rules and regulations for the management of the college or schools to be maintained or supported under this endowment, for tho appointment of a visitor or visitors, for the appointment and removal, if they deem it requisite, of a master or masters and other officers, and for other like purposes, it is expedient that the same be invested in trustees upon the trusts and with the powers hereinafter mentioned: Now know ye that we, for us, our heirs and successors, do hereby grant unto Andrew Sinclair, Esquire, Colonial Secretary ; William Swainson, Esquire, Attorney-General; and Alexander Shepperd, Esquire, Colonial Treasurer, and other tho person or persons for the time being respectively discharging the duties of the said offices, all that allotment containing by admeasurement nine acres one rood (9a. Ir.), more or less, situated in the suburbs of Auckland, Parish of Waitemata, County of Eden, and being number nine, of section ninety-five. Bounded on the South-west by section ninety-eight, seven hundred and seventeen links, three hundred and sixty-four links, and one hundred and five links ; on the North-weßt by a road curved and by the same road, sixty links; on the North by number eight of section ninety-five, three hundred and sixteen links ;on the West by number eight before mentioned, three hundred and sixteen links, and by a portion of section ninety-five, one hundred and six links ; on the North by the strand, six hundred and ninety-seven links ; on the North-east by the Manukau Road, four hundred and forty-eight links; and on the South-east by lot number seven, nine hundred and seventeen links. All those allotments containing by admeasurement nineteen acres two roods (19a. 2r.), more or less, situated in the suburbs of Auckland, in the Parish of Waitemata, in the County of Eden, and being numbered twenty-three a, twenty-three b, of section six. Bounded on the North by a road, ono thousand five hundred links ; on the East by the road from Auckland to Epsom, six hundred and ninety-five links and six hundred and ten links; on the South by number twenty-three c, one thousand five hundred and thirty links ; and on the West by a road, six hundred and ten links and six hundred and ninety-five links. All that allotment containing five acres (5a.). more or less, situated in the Parish of Takapuna, and being number twenty of section two. Bounded on the North by number twenty a, eight hundred and eighty links ; on the East by number nineteen, seven hundred and fifty links ; on the South by a road, one hundred links and eight hundred and fortyone links ; and on the West by a road, three hundred and seventy links : To hold the same in trust as an endowment for or towards the maintenance of such college and grammar school or schools, or as an endowment for or towards the maintenance and support of such grammar school or schools as aforesaid ; and to pay and apply the rents, issues, and profits of the allotments or parcels of land hereinbefore named for or towards the maintenance of such college or grammar schools. And upon further trust to convey the said allotments or parcels cf land unto such.other person or persons either jointly with themselves or otherwise, as the Governor of the Province of New Ulster shall from time to time, in writing under his own hand, nominate, direct, and appoint: subject, nevertheless, to the trusts and with the powers herein expressed and declared of and concerning the same, and with full power and authority to lease the said allotments or parcels of land, or any part or parts thereof, for any term not exceeding twenty-one years, upon such terms and conditions, and in such manner, and in all respects as to the trustees for the time being shall seem best fitted to promote the efficient maintenance of such college and grammar schools. In testimony whereof we have caused this our grant to be sealed with the seal of our said Province of New Ulster. Witness our trusty and well-beloved Sir George Grey, X.C.8., Governor and Commander-in-Chief of our said province and its dependencies, at Government House, Auckland, in New Ulster aforesaid, this twenty-eighth day of October, in the fourteenth year of our reign, and in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and fifty. G. Geey. 2. Masters and Salaries : Mr. Farquhar Macrae, Headmaster, £700 ; Mr. John Anderson, 8.A., Glasgow, Classical Master, £350; Mr. John F. Sloman, 8.A., Sydney, £350; Mr. A. de Lisle Hammond, First Master, Lower School, £300; Mr. AY. Tomlinson, F.E.A.S., Second Master, Lower School, £250; Mr. C. A. Robertson, Junior Master, Lower School, £250; Mr. W. St. Clair Tisdall, M.A., New Zealand, Assistant Master, £150. 3. Number on roll for December quarter, 1878, 214 ; average attendance, 198. 4. Numbers attending during five years: 1874, 161; 1875, 159; 1876, 171; 1877, 185; 1878, 220. 5. Number of pupils under ten years of age, 4; ten and under fifteen, 142; fifteen and under eighteen, 68. 6. School divided into seven classes, the number in each being as follows : —I., 8 ; ll.a, 15 ; II. B, 26 ; 111., 27 ; IV., 51; V., 37 ; A TL, 50.—[For time-table see Minutes of Proceedings, page 16.—Sec. R. Com.] The work of the classes is as shown in the following table ; — 5—H. 1. (Ap.)

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Class I. Latin—Horace: Ars Poetica; Odes, Books 11., 111., IV. Cicero: Philippics, Books 1., II.; Pro Milone. Composition: Melvin's Exercises, and Smith's, Part IV. Mathematics —Algebra: Todhunter's large, Cap. 1-34. Arithmetic : Hamblin Smith's Miscellaneous Examples. Trigonometry : Todhunter's larger, Cap. 1 -16. Geometry : Euclid, Book A 7L, and Exercises. History —Age of Elizabeth, Liddell's History of Rome. English Language—Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice. French—Charles XII. Class lI.A. Latin—Csesar: Books 1., II.; Livy, Book XXIII., 1-34. Horace: Odes, Book I. Virgil: iEueid, BookA rI. Composition: Ferguson's Exercises and Smith's, Part IV. Mathematics—Arithmetic: Hamblin Smith's Miscellaneous Examples. Trigonometry: Todhunter's smaller, Cap. 1-8. Geometry : Euclid, Books IL, 111., IV., and VI. Algebra: Todhunter's smaller, Cap. 1-44. Geography —Physical. English Language —Shakespeare's Julius Ca?sar. History—Age of Elizabeth, and History of Greece. French—Elementary. Class 11.8. Latin —Extracts from Ovid ; Virgil, iEneid, Book I.; Sallust, Catiline. Composition: Exercises. Mathematics —Arithmetic: Fractions to end of book. Geometry : Euclid, Book I. History—Collier's British History. English Grammar —Morris. Geography—Physical and political. French —Elementary. Class 111. Latin —Extracts from Livy; and Caisar, Lib. 1. Arithmetic—Fractions, proportion, interest, discount, &c. History —Collier's British. Grammar —Morris's English. Geography —Physical and political (Anderson's). French —Elementary. Class IV. Latin —Grammar to adverbs, Bryce's First Reader. Arithmetic—Mackay's Fractions. History —Collier's British. Geography —Physical and political. Grammar —Morris's English. French—Elementary. Class V. Arithmetic : Compound rules. History—England and Continental Powers, Geography —Physical and political. Reading, &c. Class VI. Arithmetic—Simple and compound rules. History—Early England. Geography —Nelson's Atlas aud Geography. Reading, &c. 7. Examination conducted by the Rev. C. M. Nelson, M.A., and Hugh Hart Lusk, Esq., the examiners appointed by the Board of Governors. 8. Number of scholarships, value £30 per annum each, with free tuition : Sixteen. Ex-scholars receiving free tuition: Five. 9. No pupil-boarders connected with the school. Twenfy-one boys reside away from home, one of them coming from Taranaki. 10. Fees, £2 per quarter. 11. The school is held in three distinct buildings—the upper school partly in the District Courthouse, and partly in a small chapel adjoining; the lower school in a building in Symonds Street, formerly the High School. The two former have no grounds whatever, and the latter about the eighth of an acre. All, from their limited dimensions and scattered positions, are unsuitable and ill-adapted for the accommodation of the school. The supply of apparatus, books, &c, is limited, and valued at about £120. 12. Statement of Receipts and Expendituee for the Year ending the 31st December, 1878. Receipts. Expenditure. £ b. d. £ b. d. To Balance from Education Board ... 400 10 3 By Masters'salaries ... ... ...2,708 510 Rents and interest ... ... ...1,234 3 0 Office salaries ... ... 68 1 1 School fees ... ... ... ...1,591 9 0 School rent ... ... ... ... 7113 4 Mortgage paid off ... ... ... 500 0 0 School repairs (including fitting up District Bank New Zealand, overdraft 31st Dec. ... 219 1 6 Court, £57 18s. 6d.) ... ... 103 12 5 Books, prizes, and stationery ... ... 124 18 2 Advertising ... ... ... ... 44 810 Insurance on properties ... ... 72 1 0 City rates on properties ... ... 37 16 1 Repairs and improvements on properties 100 3 5 Contingencies and incidental expenses ... 112 17 7 Capital reinvested ... ... ... 500 0 0 Balance in hands of Treasurer ... ... 16 0 Total ... ... £3,945 3 9 Total ... ... £3,945 3 9

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13. Examiners for University purposes : Mr. Macrae, Mr. Anderson, Mr. Sloman, and Mi*. Hammond. 14. Entered for degrees, 4; successful, 3 (one has taken the degree of M.A.). For senior scholarships, 5 ; successful, 2. For third-year scholarships, 0. For honours, 1 (successful). For prizes, 0. 15. Undergraduates now on the roll: Passed matriculation examination, 1; kept one year's term, 5; two years', 3 ; three years', 1. 16. Time-table for University work (temporary on account of vacancies in staff) : Eight hours for Latin, and eight for mathematics. 17. Two students devoted to University work alone ; instructed by Mr. Tisdall in Latin, and Mr. Sloman in mathematics. 18. Four terms in the year for University work. 19. No income or expenditure for purposes of University instruction alone ; and no scholarships or prizes provided by the College for University work. B. —CnuEcn op England Geammae School, Auckland. 1. The school was founded by Bishop Selwyn in 1855. It is under a Board of Governors appointed by the General Synod, of which the Lord Bishop of Auckland is chairman. The object is to provide for youths a superior education, with religious instruction. The school prepares students for the University, the learned professions, and Civil Service examinations. Three boys of the first class passed the senior and junior Civil Service examinations during the past year. Three others obtained scholarships at St. John's College. 2. There are five teachers —three for the general work of the school, one for botany, and one for drawing. There are neither female pupils nor female teachers. The headmaster is responsible for the work done in the school, and has the appointment aud dismissal of masters. The salaries of the teachers are arranged between them and tbe headmaster. 3. There were 73 pupils on the roll in December; 69 in September; 74 iv April; and 71 in January. The number of pupils on the roll in December was 73, aud the average attendance for the month more than 71. 4. The numbers attending for the last five years are: 1873,66; 1874,74; 1875,73; 1876,77; 1877, 85 ; 1878, 73. 5. No account is kept of the ages of the pupils. 6. The school is divided into three classes. In each class there are two divisions, for classics and mathematics. 18 in the first class, 29 in the second class, 26 in the third class. A detailed printed statement is appended.

TIME-TABLE. —February-March, 1879.

7. The Governors appoint an examiner, but his report has not yet been published. 8. There are three scholarships of the value of £10 yearly, tenable for one year. A set of examination papers is sent. [Received. —Sec R. Com.]

Hours. Class. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. A.M. 9 to 9.30 lst 2nd 3rd lst Collect and Gosp. Eng. Grammar Eng. Grammar Eng. Grammar Eng. Grammar. 9.30 to 10 tt Eng. Grammar, Analysis and Parsing Life of Christ ... Eng. Hist. (Nor. Kings) Life of Christ ... Geo. (Europe)... >» Life of Christ ... Eng. Grammar, Analysis and Parsing Eng. Grammar Life of Christ. Eng. Hist. (Nor. Kings). 2nd' Eng. His. (Tudor Kin gs) Saxon Period ... Modern History (5th P.), Sums it Eng. His. (Tudor Period). Saxon Period. Eoman History. 10 to 10.30 tt 3rd 1st Geo. of N.Z. ... Phys. Geography (Hughes) Phys. Geography (Primer) Eng. His. (Saxon Period), Tables Virgil, Book I. ... Pacific Islands... Phys. Geography Geo. of N.Z. ... Mod. Hist., Sums 2nd ,, >> >i Modern nistory. 10.30 to 11 3rd Latin Grammar Eng. nist. (Saxon Period) Sallust (Catiline) Eng. His., Tables Latin Grammar. lst Euclid IV. and II. Euclid, Book I. Ment. Arithmetic Euclid Virgil, Book L... Euclid. 11 to 11.30 2nd 3rd lst Cornelius Nepos Dictation Gram, and Latin Composition Gram, and Exercises Writing, Latin... Dictation Cornelius Nepos Dictation Latin Exercise... Cornelius Nepos Dictation Latin Exercise ... Natural History. Euclid. 2nd ), Latin Grammar M 11.30 to 12 Writing, Latin... Grammar Dictation Latiu, Writing... Trig., Arithmetic Arithmetic Natural History. 3rd lst 2nd 3rd lst 2nd 3rd lst 2nd 3rd 1st 2nd 3rd Latin, Writing... Algebra Arithmetic Dictation Latin, Writing Grammar Dictation Writing, Latin Algebra Dictation. P.M. 2 to 3 Trig, and Arith. Arithmetic >t Algebra. Arithmetic. 3 to 3.30 tt Arithmetic Chemistry Physics Reading Chemistry Physics Spelling and Exposition tt French Exercise u Arithmetic Eng. Language... Description Reading Exercises » Physics Heading M French Exercise. tt 3.30 to 4 Reading Translation tt French. Translation. French Exercise Spelling Physics Spelling Spelling, Expos. Reading.

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9. There is no proper accommodation for boarders. The headmaster has generally two or three boarders at £50 a year, under his own supervision. Eleven pupils reside in Auckland away from their homes ; none from beyond the province. 10. The school fees are £10 per annum. 11. The school buildings are of wood, in three rooms, capable of holding 100 boys. There is a great need of improvement. There is no library or museum. All the chemicals required in Eoscoe's Inorganic Chemistry, with tho apparatus for experiments, are provided; also tho principal scientific instrumeuts required in teaching Balfour Stewart's Physics. There is a very good supply of maps. Diagrams and charts of natural history are also in use. 12. The governors expend £50 a year —three exhibitions at £10 each; on prizes, £10; examination fee, £10. The school is in all other respects self-supporting. 13. No students have graduated at the University. No undergraduates are now on tho roll. There are no funds available for University instruction. C. —Wellington College. 1. Brief Statement as to the Foundation, Sfc. The Wellington College was founded in 1553 by His Excellency Sir George Grey, by the grant* of certain reserves in the City of AVellington, consisting of 5 acres 1 rood 38 perches, between Hobson Street and Tinakori Road ; Lots 3 and 5, reclaimed land, fronting "Willis Street, and containing 1 rood 25 perches ; and Town Acres 270, 271, 272, 278, 279, City of AVellington, between Cambridge Terrace and Tory Street. The first trustees appointed were Messrs. A. de B. Brandon, J. C. Crawford, J. Dransfield, W. Lyon, and E. Pearee. No school was opened under this endowment until early in the year 1808, when the trustees adopted as tho Wellington Grammar School a private school which had been opened the year before by Messrs. H. E. Tuckey and Hamilton, appointing the first-named as classical and Mr. Hamilton as mathematical master; and school buildings were erected on the Terrace, into which the school, numbering about fifty boys, was moved in November, IS6B. At the beginning of 1869 Mr. Bowden was appointed headmaster, and in 1872 the number of scholars had increased to more than ninety, and Mr. Hardy was appointed assistant master. At the end of 1873 Messrs. Bowden and Hamilton resigned, and Mr. Tuckey was appointed headmaster until the arrival from England of the Principal, Mr. Kenneth Wilson, M.A. In 1872 the AVellington College Act was passed, constituting a Board of Governors, in whom, as soon as appoiuted, all the estate, rights, title, and interest of the trustees above mentioned in the endowments of the AVellington Grammar School were vested, and the governors were empowered to borrow for the purposes of building. In 1573-74 tbe present buildings were erected on a site acquired from the Provincial Government of Wellington, the site on the Terrace being given in exchange. Iv the end of 1874 (October) the new College was opened by the Principal, Mr. Kenneth Wilson, who has continued to conduct it since that time, witb Messrs. H. E. Tuckey, B.A , C. J. Hardy, 8.A., C. R. Buckland, and A. F. Merlet, and Mr. T. Kirk, F.L.S., Lecturer on Natural Science, who was appointed in November, 1873, at a salary of £450, tho University of New Zealand giviug a grant of £300 per annum towards his salary. This grant was withdrawn in September, 1877, but the governors retained Mr. Kirk's services, at the same salary. The College has received other endowments of land since the first grant by Sir George Grey. Particulars are given elsewhere. [See Appendix 111. —D.] 2. Teaching Staff. Principal: Kenneth AA .lsoii, M.A., St. John's Coll., Camb. General supervision ; all the English and Latin subjects of Forms VI. and V. Salary, £700, and house. Second Master: 11. E. Tuckey, 8.A., St. John's Coll., Camb. English and Latin subjects, and general control of Forms 1 \ T. and 111., and Greek of Form A r. Salary, £400. Assistant Master: C. R. Buckland, A.A., Tasmania. English and Latin subjects, and general control of Forms 11. and I. Salary, £250. Lecturer iv Natural Science :T. Kirk, F.L.S. Lectures in botany, zoology, and geology to Forms VL and V., with field work, and is Curator of the Museum. Salary, £450. Mathematical Master: C. J. Hardy, 8.A., Christ's Coll., Camb. Entire control of the mathematics, and teaching of all except Form I. Evening lectures in classics and mathematics ; each twice a week. Salary, £300. A. F. Merlet, London University. French of Forms VI., V, IV., 111, 11., and German of Forms VI. and V. — i.e., all the modern-language-teaching in the school, aud evening lectures in modern languages twice a week. Salary, £200. Sergeant C. N. Bell, late 60th Rifles. Drill Instructor to the Cadet Corps, and also to all the rest of the school. Statement of the Duties and Powers of the Principal. —The Principal ha 3 the arrangement of tho curriculum subject to the approval of tho governors, the arrangement of the time-table, choice of books, regulation of discipline, and general supervision. He also takes the three highest forms in their English and Latin subjects, and examines for matriculation and primary scholarships, and conducts the terminal examinations at the end of the first and second terms in each year. He also has charge of the boarders. The exact extent of his discretionary power in the management of the school, and in his relations with the rest of the staff, has never been accurately defined, but it is at present under consideration. Staff' (as proposed after preseut Term).—Principal: K. AVilson, £500; and capitation fee of £1 per head, and house or £100 for rent. Second Master (to bo appointed) : £400, and capitation fee of * The trusts aro tho same as those of the Auckland College (mutatis mutandis). —Sec. B. Colt.

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10s. per head. Mathematical Master (to be appointed) : £350, and capitation fee of 10s. per head. Modern Language Master (to be appointed) : £300. N.B.—Mr. Kirk's engagement does not terminate till July, and the future teaching cf science is still under consideration. 3. Attendance. First term, 1878 : Day classes, 75 ; evening classes, 11: total, 86. Second term, 1878 : Day classes, 72 ; evening classes, 15 : total, 87. Third term, 1878 : Day classes, 73 ; evening classes, 15 : total, 88. Average daily attendance for third term, 1878: Day classes, 71; evening classes, 3 : total, 74. N.B.—Of those attending the evening classes, seven were women. 4. Abstract of Attendance Beturns for the last Five Years. 1874 : First quarter, —; second quarter, — ; third quarter, 42 ; fourth quarter, 60. 1875 : First term, 96 ; second term, 112 ; third term, 114. 1876: First term, 112 ; second term, 116; third term, 108. 1877: First term, 90; second term, 82 j third term, 77. 1878 : First term, 75 ; second term, 72 ; third term, 73. 5. Ages of Pupils. Under ten, 2 : between ten and fifteen, 56; between fifteen and eighteen, 13; over eighteen, 2 : total, 73. 6. Classes and Subjects for Examination, 1878. Form VI. Latin —Terentii Andria, Heautontimorumenos, and Phormio. M. T. Ciceronis Pro Milone, and Philippics 1., 11. Wilkin's Latin Prose Composition. French —Dramatic Literature from Chapelain to Racine. English—Shakespeare's Henry IV., Part I.; Henry VI., Part 11. Bacon's Advancement of Learniug. English Literature from 1688-1714. Mathematics. —Arithmetic. Algebra. Trigonometry. Euclid, Books 1., 11., 111., IV., and VI. Mechanics and hydrostatics. Natural Science. Form V. Latin —M. T. Ciceronis Pro Archia Poetii and Pro Balbo. P. Ovidii Nasonis Fasti (Upper.) VI. Wilkin's Latin Prose Composition. Greek —iEschyli Prometheus A .uctus. Arnold's Greek Prose Composition. French—Corneille :La . uite de Menteur. Xavier de Maistre :La Jeune Siberieune. Le Lepreux de la Cite d'Aoste. Merle, s French Grammar. German —A book of German Dactylic Poetry (Waguer). Ahn's Grammar. English —Shakespeare's Julius Cassar. History: AVllliam 111. to George 111. Geography : General. Grammar. Mathematics—Arithmetic. Algebra to binomial theorem. Trigonometry, Todhunter's small edition. Euclid, Books 1., 11., 111., IV., and VI. Natural Science. Form V. Latin —P. Ovidii Nasonis Fasti A TI. C. Jul. Csesaris De Bello Gallico VII. (Lower.) Arnold's Latin Prose Composition. Greek —Xenophontis Anabasis I. AVordsworth's Greek Grammar. Accidence. ' English—Same as in Upper Fifth. Mathematics—Arithmetic. Algebra to quadratic equations. Euclid, Books 1., 11., and 111. Natural Science. Form IA r. Latin—Cresar: De Bell. Gall. VII. Arnold's Latin Prose Composition. Public School Primer. French —Xavier de Maistre: La Jeune Sibcrienne. Merlet's French Grammar. Accidence. English —Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. History: General Outlines. Geography: Europe, British Isles, and Colonies. Grammar : Morell's. Mathematics. —Arithmetic. Algebra to quadratic equations. Euclid, Books 1., IL, and 111. Form 111. Latin—Cffisar: De 8011. Gall. 1., i.-xxv. Arnold's Henry's First Latin. Public School Primer. French —Merlet's Grammar. Accidence. English—History, Geography, and Grammar, as in Form IA r. Mathematics —Arithmetic to decimals. Algebra to simple equations. Euclid, Book 1., i.-xv. Form 11. Latin. —Valpy's Delectus, pp. 9-32. Latin Primer, pp. 1-84. French —Merlet's Grammar, pp. 1-63. Mathematics—Arithmetic to decimals. Euclid, Book 1., i.-xv. English —Collier's British History, pp. 1-145. Geography : New Zealand, Australia, Europe, British Isles. Grammar: Abbott's " How to Parse." Latin —A 7alpy's Delectus, pp. 1-5. Primer, pp. 1-45. English—As in Form 11. Arithmetic to vulgar fractions. French —Xavier de Maistre: La Jeune Siberieune. Le Lepreux de la Cite d'Aoste. Merlet's Grammar. Accidence. German—Aim's First German Course.

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TIME-TABLE.

Note. —Forma VI., V.A, and V.v, show up Latin prose on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday; history and natural science on Tuesday ; Latin notes on Wednesday ; Shakespeare or English notes on Thursday ; and corrected Latin prose on Monday. Forms IV. and 111., Latin exercise every morning. 7. Inspection, Examination, fyc. At the end of each term the whole school is examined, partly orally and partly on paper, by the Principal; and at the end of the year a general examination in all the work of the year is held by examiners appointed by the Board of Governors. In Forms I. and 11. the examination is mainly oral, aud in the higher forms almost entirely by papers. A list of the school, in accordance with the results of this examination and the work of the year combined, is published in the school Calendar, and prizes awarded, &c. Reports are furnished by each of the examiners and by tbe Principal, and are printed in the Calendar. See copy attached. [Copy received.—Sec. R. Com.] The school was inspected by tbe Inspector-General of Schools in July last. Copy of his report, dated 18th July, 1878, is attached. [Printed in Minutes of Proceedings of Commission, page 20.— Sec R. Com.] The Board of Governors has agreed to an inspection of the College by the Inspector-General of Schools, to comply with clause 51 of the Education Act. 8. Scholarships. Two Walter Turnbull Scholarships, each value £25, tenable for two years. Open to matriculated students of tho New Zealand University attending the AVellington College. One Rhodes Scholarship, value, say, £40, tenable for three years. One Moore Scholarship, value, say, £40, tenable for two years, attendance at Wellington College for at least six months before competing for the scholarship being required. Four Primary Scholarships, giving free education at the College. Open to any boys from any primary school in the Provincial District of Wellington, of the age of twelve years and upwards, and tenable up to the ago of sixteen years. 9. Boarders during Third Term, 1878. Full boarders, at £52 10s. per annum, 7: weekly boarders, at £45 per annum, 5 ; scholar, at £31 10s. per annum, 1 ; scholar receiving board and education free, 1; day boarders at £10 10s., 9: total, 23. The boarders reside in the Principal's house, which is attached to the College, and where there is accommodation for twenty-eight boarders, exclusive of day boarders. The boarders have breakfast and dinner in hall with the Principal and family, and their tea is presided over by oue of the masters, who sleeps in the house; and either he or the Principal is always on the premises after dark. 10. Fees for the Day School. Boys under twelve years, 3 guineas per term ; boys over twelve years, 4 guineas per term.

HOUBB. FOEM. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Fbiday. 9 to 10 VI. V.A V.B IV. III. ?■} VI. V.A V.B IV. III. ?} VI. V.A V.B IV.] III.) I-J V.A V.B IV. Latin Greek Mathematics Latin Greek Mathematics Latin Greek Mathematics Latin Greek Mathematics Mathematics. Latin. Mathematics. I* ... >> • ■• )» t> Latin Latin Latin Latin Latin. Latin and Writing Latin and Writing Latin and Writing Latin and Writing Latin and Writing. 10 to 11 10-10.45 Mathematics Latin Spare Latin Writing Mathematics Latin Spare Latin Writing Mathematics Latin Spare Latin Writing Mathematics Latin Spare Latin Writing Latin. Mathematics. Spare. Latin. Writing. 11 to 12 Latin and Writing Latin and Writing Latin and Writing Latin and Writing Latin and Writing. Spare Mathematics Latin Spare Mathematics Latin French Mathematics Latin Spare Mathematics Latin Geography French. Mathematics. History Geography History n Latin Grammar. French. Geography Shakespeare French ] Natural Science ) Writing and Dictation Mathematics Ilistory English Grammar Geography English Literature English Grammar English Grammar. Mathematics. 2 to 3 Natural Science ... Natural Science ... History Writing and Dictation Mathematics French ] Geography j Shakespeare Germ, and Greek ] Natural Science _) Shakespeare Engliik Grammar French Writing and Dictation Mathematics History French Geography. Mathematics. III. "■] VI. V.A] V.B ) S.) i) VI. V.A V.B Mathematics M History History II 3 to 4 Natural Science ... English Litera- ( ture \ French French English Litera- C turo \ French Germ, and Greek] Natural Science ) Shakespeare English Grammar Arithmetic Composition, &c. » I French. Arithmetic Arithmetic Arithmetic Arithmetic. 4 to 5 English Literature Natural Science ... French English Language Natural Science ... German and Greek English Language Natural Science ... German and Greek English Literature.

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11. The College. The College is erected on a reserve of 69 acres, adjoining the Adelaide Road, the most healthy situation in Wellington. The buildings cost about £9,000, and include all requisite accommodation iv class-rooms, museum, library, laboratory, dormitories, bath-rooms, dining-room, &c. Beturn as to Library, Museum, fyc. Library : A small selection of standard works of reference in botany, zoology, and geology, such as Owen's Comparative Anatomy and Physiology of Vertebrates and Invertebrates; Johnston's Conchology ; Jeffrey's British Conchology ; Dana's System of Mineralogy ; Lindley and Hutton's Fossil Botany; Hooker's Handbook of the New Zealand Flora; Hinck's Hydroida ; Hooker and Baker's Synopsis Filicum ; Descriptive Catalogues of New Zealand Mollusca, Crustacea, Fishes, Birds, &c. ; Transactions of the New Zealand Institute, &c. Diagrams: Stanford's series, illustrating the orders and classes of animalia; Oliver's series, illustrating the orders and classes of plants ; Johnston's Botanical Diagrams; Geological Diagrams ; Sopwith's Geological Models ; Geological Map of New Zealand. Five microscopes, Smith and Beck's " Popular," with extra apparatus—polariscopo, parabolic reflector, lieberkulm, camera lucida, micrometer, glass troughs, &c.—for each. Collection of articulated skeletons ; collection of New Zealand shells, Crustacea, sertulariidse, and other invertebrates; collection of British shells; and collection of New Zealand fishes, mounted; copious collection of type minerals; collection of New Zealand fossils (commenced) ; type collection of rock specimens ; preparations in spirit, &c.; copious herbarium of New Zealand plants, &c.— British plants, Australian plants. In addition to the above the extensive botanical and zoological collections formed by the lecturer are drawn upon as occasion may require. There is also a beginning of a general library for the use of the boys, consisting at present of not quite ono hundred volumes. 12. Statement of Receipts aud Expendituee for the Year ended 31st December, 1878. Receipts. £ s. d. I Expenditure. £ s. d. Tuition fees ... ... ... ... 816 6 0 Balance from previous year ... ... 1,377 1 5 Boarding fees ... ... ... 853 11 8 Masters'salaries ... ... ... 2,391 6 8 Fees, evening classes ... ... ... 55 1 0 Janitor ... ... ... ... 50 10 0 Matriculation fees ... ... ... 220 College expenses ... ... ... 170 4 7 Kent of reserves ... ... ... 769 3 2 Sundry expenses to buildings ... ... 202 3 8 Government grant ... ... ... 2,574 0 0 Insurance ... ... ... ... 46 18 9 Turnbull Fund ... ... ... 70 0 0 Bates on lands ... ... ... 0 10 10 Legacy, G. Moore ... ... ... 500 0 0 Labour, Fitzherbert Terrace ... ... 6 0 0 Legacy, W. B. Rhodes... ... ... 500 0 0 Boarding fees handed to Principal ... 821 3 8 Matriculation fees handed to Principal ... 2 2 0 Fees for evening classes to masters ... 77 14 6 Turnbull Fund—Prizes (two years) ... 50 0 0 „ Scholarships ... ... 12 10 0 Ijevin prizes (two years) ... ... 30 0 0 Secretary's salary and commission ... 91 6 11 Commission on rents collected ... ... 27 7 6 Interest on loan (£5,000 for buildings) ... 243 15 0 Bank interest ... ... ... 46 8 6 Balance ... ... ... ... 492 19 10 £6,140 3 10 £6,140 3 10 Memoeandum. —The legacies from G. Moore and AY. B. Rhodes are for founding scholarships, and the sum of £150 is in hand on account of the Turnbull Fund for prizes and scholarships ; therefore the College working account stands overdrawn at the end of the year to the amount of £657 Os. 2d. CUAELES P. POWLES, Secretary. 13. Examiners for matriculation : Mr. K. AVilson, Mr. T. Kirk, and Mr. A. F. Merlet. 14. Number of students who have entered for degrees, &c. —1877: Entered for 8.A., both sections, 1; passed, 0. Entered for B.A. compulsory subjects, 2 ; passed, 0. —1878 : Entered for 8.A., both sections, 2 ; passed, 0. 15. Number of undergraduates now on the roll who have kept—Four years' terms, 2; three years' terms, 1; two years' terms, 0 ; one year's terms, 5 ; who are in their first year, 2 : total, 10. 16,17. Time-table of Evening Classes, with Names of Teachers and of Undergraduates attending

Day. Hours. Subject. Undebgraduahs Attending. Teacher. Monday... ,, ... Tuesday Wednesday ,, 7.30 to 9.30 7.30 to 8.30 7.30 to 9.30 7.30 to 8.30 8.30 to 9.30 7.30 to 8.30 7.30 to 9.30 7.30 to 9.30 7.30 to 8.30 8.30 to 9.30 Latin English history Mathematics French German ... English ... Latin Mathematics French German ... One Nono Three None Nono Nono One Three None Nono C. J. Hardy, B.A. K. Wilson, M.A. J. Gammell, B.A. A. F. Merlet. A. F. Merlet. C. J. Hardy, B.A. C. J. Hardy, B.A. J. Gammell, B.A. A. F. Merlet. A. F. Merlet. Thursday Friday ... Saturday „ ...

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18. Number of Terms and Length of Session for Undergraduates. Three terms of thirteen weeks each, more or less. 19. Income available for University Instruction. The University instruction is given as part of the general work ; there is no special income for it, and no special remuneration of teachers. £70 raised by subscription has been expended in the purchase of microscopes. D.—Nelson College. 1. The Act of incorporation was passed in August, 1858. 2. There are five masters. The Principal (Rev. J. C. Andrew, M.A., late Fellow and Tutor of Lincoln College, Oxford) teaches the senior classics, and higher branches of English literature ; the mathematical and resident master (J. Mackay, Esq., M.A., Aberdeen) teaches the higher branches of mathematics, physical geography, &c.; tho third master (W. J, Barnicoat, Esq.) takes the junior classics, mathematics, &c. ; the fourth master (J. Firth, Esq.) teaches generally the lower classes ; the fifth, or teacher of modern languages (Herr Harling), teaches French and German. 3. Attendance, 1878:— Boarders. Day Pupils. Free. Total. First quarter ... ... 43 36 10 ... 89 Second quarter ... ... 46 36 10 ... 92 Third quarter ... ... 47 44 10 ... 101 Fourth quarter ... ... 47 48 10 ... 105 4. Average number for the past five years, 84f. 5. 6. No information supplied as to the ages of the pupils, the number in each class, and the work of tbe several classes. The prospectus states that " the regular course of instruction embraces ancient and moderu languages, history, and literature; mathematics; the elements of natural science; and political and physical geography." The time-table is as follows : —

TIME-TABLE.—May, 1879.

7. The Rev. Mr. Poole's report on the annual examination has been furnished to the Commission. 8. There are four endowed scholarships: The Richmond, £24, tenable for three years; the Newcome, £24, tenable for two years; the Stafford, £20, tenable for three years; and the Fell, £16, tenable for three years: six Foundation Scholarships, tenable for one year, two of £20 each, two of £10, and two of £5 : four Governors' Fees Scholarships, tenable for one year, of £12 10s. each: ten Provincial Scholarships, tenable for two years, of £12 10s. each ; and six of £52 10s. each : and a Simmons Prize, of £6. 9. There are fifty-eight pupil boarders—of whom twelve are from Marlborough, twelve from Wellington, four from Otago, four from Auckland, three from Napier, two from Taranaki, one from Westland, and two from England. 10. The fees are £3 2s. 6d. per quarter ; or for boarders, £12 10s. 11. The College building stands on a commanding eminence, overlooking the town and bay—in the midst of pleasure-grounds, spacious playground, and plantations. It was designed and built expressly for a College, and is considered very complete in every respect, and admirably adapted for the purpose. A considerable addition is now in progress—viz., a large class-room, several bedrooms,

9 a.m. to 10 a.m. I I 10 a.m. to 11 a.m. 11 a.m. to noon. 2 p.m. to 3 p.m. |-p.__to_p.».| E«: eM0NDA r and Thursi iay. Jniver. Student s "orms VI. & V. Latin and Greek Test. I Latin Exer. Latin Exercise and Latin Greek Testament HistoryandGeography Algebra ... Mathematics Algebra Greek ... ... Greek or English French jj ••• Work for Tuesday or Friday. 'orm IV. „ III. ... „ II. ... J, JJ „ Arithmetic Latin German or English German or Diet. Dictation and Spelling Arithmetic... jj Reading and Writing „ I- - ,1 5, ••' „ jj u Jniver. Students Tuesi jay and Frid. IY. forms VI. & V. 'orm IV. „ III. ... „ II. ... „ I. .- Latin Exercise and j Latin Greek Testament Latin and Greek Test. Latin Exer. History and Grammar \ Trigonom. „ : Algebra ... „ ; Arithmetic Mathematics Trigonometry Latin Greek ... Greek or English German or English German or Reading Reading and Writ. Algebra or Trig. Arithmetic... French jj Mental Arith. r Work for Wednesday or Saturday. JJ u jj jj jj Iniver. Students "ormB VI. & V. ■orm IV. Wednes: DAY AND SATU RDAY. Greek Test, and Hist. Latin tt ji Repetition, and Essay Euclid or Letter j, u ■•■ „ Arithmetic Mathematics Euclid Latin Work for Thursday or Monday. „ III. ... „ II. ... „ I- .- » ... „ ... jj j, ... jj

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lavatory, &c. There is a library of some two or three hundred volumes, including works of reference, useful information, higher reading, and a fair supply of current periodicals and newspapers. There are also sets of apparatus for experiments and illustration in the elements of chemistry, electricity, astronomy, and mechanics. 12. Estimated Assets and Liabilities of Nelson College.—3lst December, 1878. Assets. £ s. d. liabilities. £ s. d. Loans on mortgage— Outstanding accounts ... ... ... 33 19 6 General endowment ... ... ... 12,530 14 5 Scholarship endowments ... ... 1,000 0 0 Suspense Account. Balance in bank to credit of Loan Account 166 2 6 Balance due on Governors' feea to DecemAmount on deposit at Bank of New ber, 1878 ... ... ... ... 306 17 6 Zealand ... ... ... 300 0 0 Governors'feea for 1878 ... ... 69 0 0 Freehold property, estimated at... ... 6,500 0 0 Depreciation of College buildings, for 1878 — College buildings,"estimated at ... ... 9,333 12 7 say, £9,507 13s 5d., at 2. per cent. ... 237 13 10 Amount paid for repairs and upkeep, 1878 174 0 10 Difference in estimated value of College College furniture, books, &c. ... ... 720 5 2 buildings, from 1861 to December, 1888 2,420 13 9 Interest due on mortgages, to 31st Decern- Difference in value of furniture and first ber,lB7B ... ... ... ... 706 11 6 cost ... ... ... ... 924 12 3 Amount due for rents, to 31st December, Balance represented by estimated value of 1878 ... ... ... ... 253 10 0 endowment property ... ... 28,913 10 7 Arrears boarding and school fees ... 301 3 6 Insurance premiums advanced on account of mortgage securities ... ... ... 11 15 0 Balance to credit of receipts, to 31st December, 1878 ... ... ... ... 908 11 11 £82,906 7 5 £32,906 7 5 Abstract of the Receipts and Expenditure of Nelson College for the Tear ending 31st December, 1878. Receipts. £ s. d. Expenditure. £ s. d. Interest on loans ... ... ... 1,106 4 3 Boarding expenses ... ... ... 2,001 8 0 Rents from endowment property ... 365 0 0 Principal and masters'salaries and fees ... 1,452 10 0 Drill instructor ... ... ... 25 17 6 Hoarding Fees. Books and stationery ... ... ... 37 19 4 First quarter— Boarders ... 43^| Kepairs and upkeep of College ... ... 174 010 „ Day boarders ... 7 Account of arrears of Governors'fees ... 300 0 0 Second quarter —Boarders ... 46 „ Day boarders ... 9 1 2 44' 11 6 General Incidental. Third quarter — Boarders ... 47 ' ' Insurance ... ... ... ... 59 10 0 „ Day boarders ... 11 Audit expenses ... ... ... 6 6 0 Fourth quarter —Boarders ... 47 Advertising and printing ... ... 42 16 6 „ Day boardera ... 9J Examination expenses ... ... ... 20 0 0 Secretary ... ... ... ... 225 0 0 * Tuition Receipts. Town and water rates ... ... ... 46 2 6 First quarter —Pupils ... ... 79"J College sports, cricket club, and fire brigade 15 19 0 Second „ „ ... ... 82 £ -i ork 11 . Sundries, stamps, &c. ... ... ... 15 8 0 Third „ „ ... ... 91 f ' ™ Law expenses... ... ... ... 10 19 6 Fourth ~ „ ... ... 95 J Insurance premiums paid on securities ... 8 5 6 Receipts for school stationery ... ... 43 14 0 Foundation scholarships ... ... 30 0 0 Interest on Simmons Prize Fund ... 4 0 0 Endowed scholarships ... ... ... 66 0 0 Amount to credit on lst January, 1878 ... 636 3 7 Exhibitions ... ... ... ... 217 10 0 Balance to credit of 1879 ... ... 908 1111 £5,664 4 7 £5,664 4 7 13. Examiner of College: Rev. S. Poole, M.A., Oxon. Examiners for University purposes: Rev. J. C. Andrew, M.A., and Rev. S. Poole, M.A. 14. For scholarships, &c, in the University the College authorities refer the Commission to the University Calendar. Two candidates for junior scholarships last year were successful. [See page 17 of this Appendix.] 15. There are three undergraduates in their first year ; there are also three who have completed their terms, and who will probably present themselves for examination for the degree of B.A. 16. The time-table for undergraduates is included in the general time-table given above (under number 6). 17. 18. At present the undergraduates in residence form the first division, immediately under the charge of the Principal. Attendance is the same as for the rest of the College. * 19. No income or expenditure for purposes of University instruction alone. d . —coeeespondence, etc., eclating to endowments of nelson college and to peoposed Inspection. 1. Letter (with Enclosure) from Secretary of College. Sic,— College Office, Nelson, 17th March, 1879. I have the honour to inform you that the governors have had your letter of the 29th January under their consideration, and direct me to inform you that it does not appear to them that Nelson College comes within the meaning of "schools endowed by Government grants out of public estate." | The Board, however, not wishing to rely upon its own interpretation of the authorities under which it had existence, consulted Mr. Acton Adams (the College solicitor) on the matter; and lam directed to forward to you a copy of his opinion and reasons for arriving at it. * In addition to these there are ten free scholars, of whom six are boarders. 6—H. 1. (Ap.)

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I have the honour, by direction of the governors, to state their willingness to furnish the Commissioners any information respecting the College that may be considered of service. I have, &c, Robt. Pollock, Rev. W. J. Habens, Secretary to the Commission, Secretary, Nelson College. Wellington.

Reasons showing that the Nelson College was not endowed out of the Public Estate, nor by Grants of Public Money. Bt letters patent dated the 12th day of February, 1841, the New Zealand Company acquired the right of settling the colony, and of disposing of the lauds thereof for the profit of the shareholders of the Company, which was a company started for the purposes of speculation and profit. By 10 and 11 Vict., c. 112, section 2, all the lands in New Munster (Middle Island) were vested in the Company in trust for sale. Section 6 of same Statute enacted that part of the produce of the sale was to be applied by the Company (inter alia) in forming schools, &c, subject to regulations approved of by the Secretary of State for the Colonies. By 14 and 15 Vict., c. 86, it is enacted that the New Zealand Company had sold land under certain published terms, providing that part of the money thereby derived should be appropriated (inter alia) for religious and educational uses. Section 3 enacted that this part of the money was to be paid to a Board of Trustees, and then all further liability of Her Majesty was to cease. (This shows that it was recognized as a liability or claim, and was not treated as a gift.) Section 4 enacted that the trustees were to have power to dispose of the money towards (inter alia) education, as they should think expedient. The foundation deed, incorporated in " The Nelson College Act, 1858," recites the whole history of the sources from whence the College funds were derived, aud shows that the Crown paid over tho money in settlement of a legal claim, and not as a gift, grant, or endowment. And section 2 of the regulations in the Schedule to tho Incorporation Act, 1858, states that tho funds have arisen from the contributions of persons of different religious persuasions, &c. All these public references to the origin of the present College estate show that the Nelson settlers purchased their land on certain published terms, whereby part of their purchase-money was to be applied towards educational purposes, of which the College is the outcome. And it was part of their contract of purchase that they and their successors should have certain advantages in the way of education. The College is, therefore, endowed by an arrangement between these purchasers and their vendor (the New Zealand Company), and did not acquire its property by an endowment from the Crown. It bears the same relation to the Government-endowed schools as a private road reserved by the vendor of an estate for the benefit of the purchasers bears to a public highway. 2. Letter (with Enclosure) from Secretary of College. Sic,— College Office, Nelson, 27th March, 1879. I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 20th instant, and in accordance with your request I enclose herewith a statement of the land belonging to the College. With respect to the value of the land, I have furnished the several rentals derived from it, which I apprehend may be taken as its value to the College. For some time to come Ido not anticipate any material increase in the aggregate amount, whatever future years may bring forth. I may mention that the College block of 12 acres was acquired partly by exchange, but chiefly by purchase, for a college site. I have, &c, Robt. Pollock, Rev. W. J. Habens, Secretary, Royal Commission, Secretary, Nelson College. Wellington.

Statement of the Land Endowments pertaining to Nelson College. No. 1. The College Domain contains about 12 acres, seven of which are occupied by the College buildings, playground, pleasure-grounds, and plantations, &c. The remaining five acres, with a cottage thereon, are let to a yearly tenant at £80 a year. The entire block is fenced in and laid down in grass, excepting the plantations, garden, and a portion of the playground. No. 2. Block B contains 17£ acres, and is within the Town Belt, let on lease for ten years from 1871. When so let, the fencing was much out of repair, and the land overrun with briars and scrub : it was in consequence let at a low rent—the first two years at £5 a year, the next two years at £15 a year, and the remaining six years at £20 per annum —on condition that certain specified improvements were made. This has been faithfully done. The block is now perfectly fenced, drained, and ploughed, and is eventually to be laid down in grass. No. 3. Block D, containing six acres : Four of these are let on lease to four separate tenants at a rental in each case of £10 a year; in each case the tenants have cleared and fenced, and built cottages on their holdings. The two remaining acres are unimproved and unoccupied; they have been repeatedly advertised, and offered at a very low rent, but without effect, although situated within the town boundary. No. 4. Riwaka: This land, situated on what is known as Riwaka Swamp, consists of six and a half 50-acre sections. Sections 38, 39, and 49, containing 150 acres, are let to one tenant, the total annual rent now being £65. Section 36, 50 acres, let on lease ; present rent, £15 a year. Section 35, 50 acres, also let on lease ; annual rent, £18. Section 40 also let on lease at £15 a year. The above sections, from their position, are subject, more or less, to floods, and during the very disastrous floods at Motueka and Riwaka, some three years since, the last-named section, No. 40, was severely injured, nearly the whole of it having the soil washed away, and covered instead with silt and driftwood, to a

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considerable depth, so as to render it for a considerable period nearly useless. Under the circumstances, the governors forgave the tenant his rent for the remainder of his term (now nearly expired) on condition that he reopened the drains, and as far as possible cleared away the debris. No. 5. Opawa : Block F, 800 acres, in the District of Marlborough, let at a rental of £30. This land is also frequently flooded by the River Opawa, and much damage done from time to time, both to sheep and land. No. 6. Amuri: 2,780 acres in the District of Nelson, let on lease to a neighbouring sheepfarmer at an annual rent of £130. This block is so situated that it cannot be let, excepting to one or other of the two adjoining runholders. The above, to the best of my belief, comprises all the land belonging to the College. Robt. Pollock, Secretary. 3. Letter from Secretary of College. Sic,— ' College Office, Nelson, 2nd April, 1879. I have the honour, with reference to our correspondence of yesterday, to hand you herewith copy of a resolution adopted by the Council of Governors at their meeting held this day :— " The governors, having been advised that the Nelson College is not supported by endowments made out of public estate, or grants of public money, are of opinion that they would not be justified in allowing an official inspection of its working by the Royal Commission on University and Higher Education. " The governors, together with the Principal, will, however, most readily give facility to any gentlemen taking an interest in University and higher education, whether members of the Royal Commission or otherwise, to see the working of the College." I have, &c, Rev. W. J. Habens, Secretary to the Royal Commission, Robt. Pollock, Nelson. Secretary, Nelson College. 4. Letter from Principal of College. Sic,— Nelson College, 3rd April, 1879. I hope you will not attribute it to auy want of courtesy on my part that I reply briefly to your letter of this morning that as Principal of Nelson College I do'object to the Commissioners visiting the College in their official capacity. I have, &c, Rev. W. J. Habens, Secretary to Higher Education Commission. J. C. Andeew. 5. Memorandum by Secretary to Royal Commission. The New Zealand Company agreed with the early settlers in Nelson to apply part of the Land Fund to certain public purposes, including the promotion of education. The Company having surrendered its charter (in accordance with the provisions of " An Act to promote Colonization in New Zealand," 10 and 11 Vict.), and having invested £25,000 in trust to satisfy the amount applicable to educational and other uses, the amount being in dispute between the Company and the purchasers of land, it was enacted (14 and 15 Vict., c. 86) that the Commissioners of the Treasury should receive the £25,000 and the interest thereon, should ascertain the amount due, and pay such amount to seven trustees nominated by the purchasers and the Company, and that the " Fund for the Public Purposes of the Settlement of Nelson " thus created should be administered by such trustees. In 1852 the Commissioners of the Treasury paid to the trustees £20,199 15s. ; and in 1858, after arbitration, a second and final payment of £20,578 os. 6d. was similarly made. The trustees of the fund then transferred to the College the land upon which the school then stood, together with mortgages to the value of £18,290, and money in the bank £1,710. E.—Cheist's College, Canteebuby. 1. Constitution and Endowments. —Christ's College, consisting of a Collegiate Department and of a Grammar School Department, is governed by a warden, sub-warden, and fellows, who wero declared to be a body corporate by an Ordinance of the Provincial Council of Canterbury, dated 27th June, 1855. It has been endowed by the Church Property Trustees with rural and town land in the town and country districts situated within the boundaries of the original Canterbury Block. The College also received a grant of ten acres of the Government Domain from the Provincial Council on the 24th of February, 1857, as a site for buildings and grounds. It possesses, also, endowments from private sources for fhe following professorships and scholarships: The Watts-Russell Professorship, the Hulsean Chichele Professorship of Classics and English Literature, Somes Scholarships, Buller and Reay Scholarships, Rowley Scholarship, and the Dudley Divinity Scholarship. The gross rental of the various endowments is as follows : The General Estate, £1,250 ; WattsRussell Professorship, £144; Hulsean Chichele Professorship, £100; Somes Scholarships, £520 ; Buller and Reay Scholarships, £200; Rowley Scholarship, £120 ; Dudley Scholarship, £20. The greater part of the proceeds of the general estate and of the Somes Scholarship estate is for the present devoted to the Grammar School Department. Objects of the College. —The object of the College in both departments, to use the words of the original document, put forth by the Canterbury Association and the early settlers, is to " train young men from their early boyhood for the learned professions, or for the general duties of life, according to the highest attainable standard of religion, morals, and learning." " The Grammar School Department has been established on the plan of the great grammar schools of England, both as to instruction and discipline," with such modifications as from time to time have seemed to be required from the peculiar circumstances of a colony. Operations of the School, and the Work done by it. —The efforts of the governing body of the College have, up to the present time, been chiefly devoted to the Grammar School Department. It will be seen from the enclosed time-table for last year, showing the work done in the various forms during the week, that a large amount of time is spent on other subjects besides classics, and that the learning of Greek is not required in those cases where it seems desirable to substitute German. A school-list for

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the last term of 1878, founded on the results of the work of the term, and of the Christmas examination, is also enclosed. This will show the division of the school according to the various subjects taught, and the pupils in each class or form in the month of December, 1878. There is also enclosed the school-list of Christ's College Grammar School from 1852 to 1877. This list, published by the Old College Boys' Association, will show the number of boys who have passed through the school, or were present in it in 1877. The publication will also give a variety of information as to the work which has been done by tbe school. Since its first foundation the following boys have gone from the school to the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge :-C. C. Prichard, D. T." Williams, F. G. Brittan, W. Harper, H. T. Dudley, P. B. Abraham, A. Duncan, G. N. Willmer, R. H. Rhodes, A. E. G. Rhodes, E. Bell, E. B. Brown, J. Barker, J. B. Wilkin, H. 0. Tripp. The following have entered as medical students in London:—C. 11. Whitcombe, F. G. Westenra, B. Moorhouse. The following gained New Zealand University scholarships under the old regulations:—C. H. Bell, A. W. D. Bell, W. A. Atack, H. Cotterill, M. Davie, A. W. E. Stifle, C. Gould, W. V. Milton, W. P. Reeves, E. B. Brown, W. H. Herbert, J. H. Twentyman. The following have gained junior University scholarships under present regulations:—J. Hay, J. Innes, H. Williams, B. M. Connal. A senior scholarship has been gained by VV. H. Herbert. 2. Teaching Staff. (a.) Christ's College, Upper Department. Watts-Russell Professor of Divinity : The Very Rev. Dean Jacobs, M. A., Oxford ; salary, £140 per. annum. Hulsean Chichele Professor of Classics and English Literature, Tutor, and Chaplain : The Rev. F. A. Hare, M.A., Cambridge ; salary, £100 per annum, with house and rooms for six students. (b.) Grammar School Department. Headmaster: C. C. Corfe, B. A., Cambridge ; salary £450, and house for thirty boarders (takes the mathematics in Divisions 1., 11., 111., and A). Chaplain and Instructor in Divinity : Rev. F. A. Hare, M.A., Cambridge ; salary £200 (takes the divinity of the whole school). Second Master: E. A. Worthy, 8.A., Oxford (first class in moderations, third class in final examination), £350 per annum, and house for thirty boarders (takes classics and English of Form VI., and has the supervision of the classics and English of the school). Science Master :C. M. Phillips ; salary £375 (takes science in Forms VI., V., IV., and 111. ; classics and English in the Lower V.). Assistant Masters: T. D. Condell (educated at Christ's College, and twelve years master), salary £250, and house for twenty boarders (takes classics and English in the Upper and Middle V.) ; B. Church, salary £250 (takes classics and English in Form IV., and arithmetic in Division C) ; W. Morrison, 8.A., Oxford, salary £300 (takes classics and English in Form 11., and arithmetic in Division B, and French in Form 11. and Remove) ; Rev. W. Dunkley (temporary appointment), salary £250 (takes classics and English in Remove and Form 1., and arithmetic in Divisions E arid F) ; M. H. Berkeley, salary £250 (leaches classics and English in Form 111., and arithmetic in Division D) ; J. E. yon Tunzelmann, salary £160 (teaches French to Forms VI., V., IV., and III.; also German, which is optional). F. Burchell, teacher of drawing, optional. Mr. J. B. Harrison, M.A., Oxford, has been appointed a master in the place of Mr. Dawe, now headmaster of Lyttelton Borough School. Another master will be appointed in the place of Mr. Church, wbo has resigned. [Mr. Condell has been promoted to the second classical mastership, and Mr. Brown, 8.A., Oxon , has been appointed since the above statement was sent in.—Sec. R. Com.] The headmaster and other masters are appointed by the governing body (subject to the approval of the warden), and may be dismissed by them. The governing body look to the headmaster for advice as to the choice of masters, and also with respect to their dismissal. The headmaster has control over the discipline and arrangements of the school, and takes the teaching and oversight in the department for which he is best fitted. In the case of the present headmaster, ihe mathematical department is under his direction. The classical and English departments are overlooked by the principal classical master. In all cases there is the power of appeal to the governing body. 3, 4. Attendance. —Average number for each of the three terms of each year from 1874 to 1878 :— 1874: 144,152,141. 1875: 155,172,186. 1876:192,181,174. 1877: 175,172,170. 1878:180, 180, 190. Number on roll for 1878 :—First term, 189 ; second term, 186 ; third term, 200. 5. Ages of Pupils in attendance, December, 1878. —Under ten, 2 ; over ten and under fifteen, 104 ; over fifteen and under eighteen, 81; over eighteen, 13: total, 200. 6. Table showing the Hours per Week given to the Different Subjects in each Form at Christ's College Grammar School.

Forms. Subjects. VI. v. v. v. IV Upper. Middle. Lower. III. II. I. I. Upper. Lower. Divinity Latin Grreek English Mathematics French Science 2 6 8 4 s 2 2 2 4 8 5 8 2 2 2 4.1 2 S 2 2 2 5 2 5 8 2 2 2 6J «j 8 2 2 2 5 9 7 1 2 2 -1 9 8 1 2 2 4 12 8 2 14 8 2 2 N.B.—In the science de iartme: it, ical che: .isti lcL boti are taui rht

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Music and drawing are taught out of school hours, and are not compulsory. There is no extra charge for music. In addition to twenty-six hours a week in school, boys are required to give from an hour and threequarters to two and a half hours every evening to preparation. Work of First Term of 1879.— Classics. Sixth Form : iEschvlus, Prometheus Vinctus, 11. 1-396, 436-525, 561-699. Thucvdides, Book 1., eh. 24-51. Horace, Epist., Book 1., Ep. 1-12. Virgil, _Eneid, Book 1., 11. 441-578. Livy, Book XXI., eh. 1-22. Greek prose, Latiu prose. Upper Fifth Form : Cicero, Pro Milone, eh. i.-viii. Virgil, _Eneid, Book 11., 11. 559-729. Public School Latin Grammar. Xenophon, Anabasis, Book 111., eh. i. Greek grammar. Virgil, lines by heart, 559-650. Latin and Greek prose. Middle Fifth Form: Caesar, Book IV, eh. 31-38; Book V, eh. 8-11. Virgil, JEneid, Book IL, 11. 559-704. Public School Latin Grammar. Xenophon, Anabasis, Book 1., eh. v. Greek grammar. Virgil, lines by heart, 559-023. Latin and Greek prose. Lower Fifth Form: Caesar, Book 1., eh. 1-10. Ovid (selections), V., 60 lines. Latiu grammar. Latin exercises. Initia Graeca, Part 1, pp. 1-70 ; Ex. 1-15. Fourth Form : Principia Latina, Part 2, Book 111., 1-16. Latin grammar. Easy Latin prose. Upper Third Form : Principia Latina, Part 2, 1-10, pp. 39, 40. Principia Latina, Part 1, L.E. to Ex. xxxii. ; E.L. to Ex. xxviii. Latin grammar to p. 50. Lower Third Form: Principia Latina, Part 1, L.E. to Ex. xxix.; E.L. to Ex. xxvii. Latin grammar to p. 50. Upper Second Form: Principia Latina, Part 1, L.E., Ex. xvii.-xlvii.; E.L., Ex. xxvi.-xxxiii. Latin grammar to end of irregular verbs. Lower Second Form: Priucipia Latina, Part 1, xix.-xxv. Latin grammar to end of fourth conj. passive. Remove : Principia Latina, Part 1, pp. 3-23, 28-30, 32-35 ; L.E. Ex. i.-viii.; E.L. Ex. i.-v. Mathematics. Upper First Division : Arithmetic. Algebra —Todhunter's Algebra to eh. xxv. Trigonometry— Hamblin Smith, to eh. xxviii. Euclid, Books I, IL, 111., IV, VI. Easy deductions. Middle First Division: Arithmetic. Algebra—Todhunter's Algebra for Beginners, to eh. xxviii. Trigonometry —Hamblin Smith, to eh. xiii. Euclid, Books 1., 11., 111., IV. Easy deductions. Lower First Division: Arithmetic. Algebra —Todhunter's Algebra for Beginners, to eh. xxiii. Trigonometry —Hamblin Smith, to eh. x. Euclid, Books I, 11., 111., IV. Easy deductions. Second Division : Arithmetic. Algebra —Todhunter's Algebra for Beginners, to eh. xxiii. Euclid, Books 1., 11. Easy deductions. Third Division : Arithmetic to rule of tbree. Algebra —Todhunter's Algebra for Beginners, to eh. xxii. (omitting from x.-xviii.). Euclid, Book I. to Prop. xxiv. Division A: Arithmetic. Algebra—Todhunter's Algebra for Beginners, to eh. xxii. Divisions B and C : Arithmetic to rule of three. Division D : Arithmetic to abstract fractious. Division E : Arithmetic to reduction. English. Sixth Form: Student's Greece, Book 1., eh. 1-6. Student's Hume, pp. 134-180. Collins's English Literature, pp. 200-273. Shakespeare, Henry VIII., act 1, sc. 1, to act 2, sc 3. Essay. Upper and Middle Fifth: Collins's English History, House of Brunswick. Smith's smaller Roman History, eh. 22-35. Phillips's Geography, Asia. Shakespeare, Henry IV., part 2. Lower Fifth: Collins's English History, Tudors. Boyer's Roman History, XVIII.-XXIII. English Grammar, primer (Morris). Thomson's Spring. Analysis of sentences. Graves's Geography, primer, first half. Fourth Form : Smith's smaller Roman History—Second Punic War. Collins's English History, Henry 11. to Richard 11. Euclid—Definitions and first five propositions. Upper and Low*er Third: Brief History of England, to Richard 11. Geography, Asia. Allen and Cornwell, pp. 1-33, 56-59, 100-104. Royal Reader VI., Lady of the Lake. Second Form: English History, Stewart Period. Geography, Asia; maps of Asia, Western Asia, Palestine, Tndia, and China, Malay Archipelago. Repetition, Royal Reader 11., pp. 52, 115, 118, 20G. Remove and First: Royal Reader IV. English History—Brief History of Eugland. Geography. English Grammar. Dictation. French. Sixth Form : Grammaire dcs Grammaires, Ex. 185-200. L'Avare, Moliere. Upper Fifth: Grammaire dcs Grammaires, Ex. 100-115. Le Conscrit. Middle Fifth: Grammaire dcs Grammaires, Ex. 70-85. Le Bourgeois, Moliere. Lower Fifth : Grammaire dcs Grammaires, Ex. 55-70. First Reader, Hachette. Fourth Form: First French course, Ahn, Ex. 95-110. First Reader, Hachette. Third Form : First French Course, Ahn, Ex. 55-70. First Reader, Hachette. Second Form and Remove : First French Course, Ahn, to Ex. 30. Verbs avoir aud etre. German. Boys who do not learn Greek in Middle and Lower Fifth: Aim's First Course, Part 2. Schiller's Wilhelm Tell. Science. Sixth and Upper Fifth: Frictional electricity. Middle and Lower Fifth : Frictional electricity. Magnetism. Botany. Fourth Form : Frictional electricity. Botany. Upper and Lower Third : Physics, Primer. Upper and Lower Second: Physics, from Royal Reader V.

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Divinity. Sixth Form: St. Mark, i.—vi., in Greek ; i.-x., in English. Numbers. Upper Fifth ■ St. Mark, i.-v., in Greek; i.-x., in English. Numbers. Middle Fifth : St. Mark, i.-iii., in Greek ; i.-x., in English. Numbers. Lower Fifth and Fourth : St. Mark, in English. Numbers. Third, Second, Remove, and First: St. Mark, i.-x., in English. Numbers. 7. Examinations, Sfc. At the end of the first and second terms of the year the examinations are conducted by the masters of the school. At the end of the third term the examinations are conducted by others (not masters). These examiners are appointed by the governing body. Reports made by various examiners at the late examination are enclosed; also copies of all examination papers at last Christmas which were printed. The mathematical papers for first division were not printed. Christ's College is affiliated to the University of New Zealand, and conducts matriculation examinations for the University. It is also empowered to examine candidates for the medical profession in the preliminary examination required by the Medical Council of Great Britain. 8. Scholarships. The present scholars are —In the Upper Department: Buller and Reay (£7O per annum each), J. R. Wilkinson, W. H. Herbert. Somes Students Scholar (£5O per annum) : 11. W. Williams. — Lower Department: Senior Somes Scholars (£4O per annum each) :F. D. Harman, E. G. S. Hare. Sons of Clergy Scholarships (£l5 per annum each) : H. B. M. Watson, F. M. M. Watson, H. H. Mathias, R. H. Mathias. The holders of scholarships given in the school are determined by the Christmas examination. It is proposed to increase the number of scholarships, the income of the various scholarships havin" considerably increased. 9. Boarding-houses. The headmaster's house for thirty boarders, the second master's house for thirty boarders, and Mr. Condell's house for twenty boarders, are ou the College site. The Rev. G. Cotterill's house for sixteen boarders, sanctioned as a boarding-house by the governing body, is situated in Cashel Street West. Terms for Boarding: At the houses on the College site, 50 guineas per annum ; at the Rev. G. Cotterill's house, 45 or 40 guineas, according to the ages of the boys. From 80 to 90 boys attending the school are boarders in the houses connected with the College : 37 of these are from places outside the Canterbury Provincial District, as follows : —From Otago, 20 ; Southland, 4 ; Wellington, 5 ; Hawke's Bay, 6 ; Auckland, 2. 10. Scale of Charges for Day-Scholars and Boarders. Fees : Upper school, £15 15s. per annum ; lower school, £12 125.; stationery, 10s. Od. Books are charged for. 11. School Buildings, fyc. The buildings consist of the headmaster's house, containing a class-room ; the second master's house, containing a class-room; Mr. Condell's house, containing a class-room; a detached building, containing five class-rooms ; a stone schoolroom ; the chaplain's house ; the chapel, built of stone ; the library, containing offices and commemoration hall; the gymnasium; a small chemical laboratory. There is no museum. Apparatus for teaching on science subjects, models for drawing, and maps, are supplied as they become necessary. 12. Income and Expenditure. A statement of the income and expenditure for the year ending the 31st December, 1878, is appended. Geammae School Depaetment. Receipts. £ s. d. ' Expenditure. £ s. d. By rent of land ... ... ... ... 1,288 11 2j To sinking fund on debt ... ... ... 198 11 8 School fees ... ... ... ... 2,600 0 0 1 Masters'salaries ... ... ... 2,780 2 6 Books, &c. ... ... ... ... 451 13 3 j Books, &c. ... ... ... ... 451 13 3 Balance of expenditure over receipts, pro- School furniture, &c. ... ... ... 106 7 6 vided for by borrowing ... ... 2,611 14 2 Prizes ... ... ... ... 48 13 11 Repairs and insurance... ... ... 166 8 3 New buildings ... ... ... 2,800 12 3 Printing, &c. ... ... ... 93 2 10 Cost of management ... ... ... 227 0 0 Sundries ... ... ... ... 79 6 5 £6,951 18 7 £6,951 18 7 Uppee Depaetment. £ s. d. £ s. d. By rents from landed endowments... ... 1,032 6 8 To professors and tutor ... ... ... 209 11 0 Scholars' fees and payment for books ... 34 17 11 Scholarships (including £166 6s. Bd. paid Grammar School scholarships) ... 223 6 8 Cost of management, books, and sundries... 60 17 8 Balance ... ... ... ... 573 9 3 £1,067 4 7 £1,067 4 7 13. The papers for the last examination have already been forwarded. The names of the examiners for matriculation (given in the University Calendar) are, —Rev. H. Jacobs, M.A., Oxford; C. C. Corfe, 8.A., Cambridge ; C. N. Phillips, Oxford ; Rev. C. Turrell, M.A,

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14. The following, who have gained scholarships, have been students of the College : —W. H. Atack, E. B. Brown, W. H. Herbert, C. Gould, W. V. Milton, J. Innes, J. Hay, J. W. Twentyman, H. Williams. Of these, Herbert and Williams have obtained senior scholarships. Williams has been (in error) stated to have been a student at Canterbury College. 15. At the present time, Herbert and Williams, who matriculated at Christ's College, reside at the house on the College ground, under the charge of the Rev. F. A. Hare. They are students at Canterbury College, and also attend the theological lectures of the Professor of Divinity, and have private instruction from Mr. Hare. Mr. Hamilton is a theological student, and is also under Mr. Hare's tuition for classics and English. 16. The ordinary time-table of the sixth form is the time-table for University work. Additional instruction is provided by the College tutor and professors. 17. The terms are the same for University work as for the grammar-school. 19. Income and Expenditure for University purposes. The Income of Professorships : Amount required taken from tho General College Fund. Various scholarships (as given in former statement) are provided for the upper department; also a house to receive students, to whom private tuition is given by the tutor in charge of the house. The scholarships are now held by students resident in the tutor's house who have entered Canterbury College—■ viz., Messrs. Wilkinson, Herbert, and Williams —and by Mr. Hamilton, a theological student. From the answers to questions 14 and 15, it will bo seen that the students of Christ's College havo been, for the most part, boys who, as University scholars, are obliged to enter upon the University course, and whose friends wished them to remain under school control and teaching; and that the upper department also provides a home, scholarships, aud the tuition of the Professors of Divinity and Classics, for students of Canterbury College, as well as for theological students and other students of Christ's College. G. Cotteeill, Christ's College, Christchurch, Registrar aud Bursar, Christ's College. 28th March, 1879. VIII.—PAPERS RELATING TO SECONDARY SCHOOLS NOT AFFILIATED TO THE NEW ZEALAND UNIVERSITY. A.—Giels' High School, Auckland. See the evidence of Mr. Neil Heath, headmaster (Minutes of Evidence, page 102), and' of Mr. Vincent Rice, Secretary to the Education Board of the District of Auckland (Minutes, page 111). The following curriculum of instruction is published under authority of the Education Board: — Lower School. First Form: Reading —Nos. 111. and IV. Royal Readers. Spelling—Nos. 111. and IV. Royal Readers. English Grammar —Nouns (no text-book). Elementary Geography —No text-book. Arithmetic —No. I. Nelson's. Writing. French —Conversational (no text-book). Sewing —Plain. Singing. Second Form : Reading—No. IV. Spelling—No. IV. English Grammar—Nouns, adjectives, verbs, and adverbs (no text-book). Geography—Geography and Atlas No. 1. History. Arithmetic —Nos. 11. and 111. Nelson's. Writing. French—Conversational (no text-book). Sewing—Plain. Singing. Third Form : Reading —No. V. Spelling and Dictation —No. V. English Grammar and Analysis —Morris's Primer. Geography- —■ Political. History — English. Arithmetic — Nos. 111. and IV. Nelson's. Writing. French — Chardenal's French Grammar and Conversation. Sewing — Plain. Singing. Drawing—Line. Upper School. Fourth Form: Reading—-No. VI. Spelling and Dictation—No. VI. English Composition, Grammar, and Analysis—Morris's History ; English Grammar. Geography—Political. History— English. Arithmetic —Vulgar and decimal fractions (Smith). Writing. French—Same as 111. German—Conversation (no text-book). Latin—Grammar. Fancy Work —Leather; wool. Singing. Drawing—Line and object. Fifth Form: Reading —Extracts, prose and verse. English Composition, Grammar, and Analysis —Same as IV., but more advanced. Geography —Political and physical. History —Epochs. Arithmetic —Advanced rules (Smith). French—Comparative grammar, translation, composition, and conversation. German —Tiark's Grammar and Reader. Latin —Cassar, Virgil, composition. Geometry —Books I. and 11. Algebra—To end of equations, Todhunter. Fancy work—Optional. Singing — Optional. Drawing—Perspective and model. Sixth Form: Reading—Extracts. English Composition, Grammar, and Analysis —Advanced. Geography —Thorough. History — Epochs. Arithmetic —General. French —Thorough. German — Thorough. Latin—Sallust, Livy, Virgil, Horace, and composition. Geometry—Books I. to VI. Algebra —Thorough. Trigonometry—When required. Applied Mathematics—When required. Fancy work—Optional. Singing—Optional. Drawing—Painting; sketching from nature. Pupils having passed through Form IV. can, on entering Form V., take German instead of Latin, or continue their Latin. English composition is done in school, not at home. Lectures on the chemistry of common things, on the composition of air, <fee, on the winds, &c, are given to both schools, when desirable. Forms V. and VI. will have lectures on political economy, while the laws of health and domestic economy are carefully treated, as opportunity offers. The parents of those pupils in Forms V. and VI. are invited to confer with the headmaster as to the course of study more immediately beneficial to their daughters.

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B. —Boys' and Giels' Teust Schools, Napiee. Sic,— Napier, 13th February, 1879. The Rev. D. Sidey wrote you last week, stating that answers would be sent to your queries before tbe 31st March, when the treasurer of the trustees had returned to the colony. Sinco that time a letter has been received from the Rev. W. J. Habeas, urging that the same return should be sent without delay, and the present trustees agree to do so, but intimating that they can only give a probable statement as to the funds. Enclosed are the statements of the respective teachers of the Boys' High School and the Girls' School. Hitherto w*e have not had the Board schools in full operation, and now that the large town school is about to be opened we do not doubt that it will bring certain changes to both scho ds. The trustees have been contemplating making some new arrangements by an Act of the Legislature or otherwise to convert the Girls' School into a high school for girls, and so arranging that both of them might participate in the endowments for secondary education. Owing to the absence of H. S. Tiffen, Esq., their treasurer, this matter has not been finally decided on. The only other matter requiring attention is the nature of the endowment held by trustees. Two sections were purchased with funds raised by public subscription at the formation of Napier for a public school in the centre of the town. The schoolhouse was burnt, and the land leased for somewhere about £230. These rents accumulated through a series of years, when the matter was brought before the Supreme Court, and a deed granted to certain trustees to manage the schools. A piece of land described by the Rev. John Campbell was conveyed to them at a nominal price by the late Provincial Council, and tiie buildings erected thereon by the accumulated funds. From the pressing necessity of a larger girls' school than existed in Napier the trustees were induced to take over a girls' school already existing, held by a committee of ladies, and borrowed money from one of our number to enlarge it. It is now and has for years been occupied by Miss Gascoigne ; the debt is very nearly, if not altogether, liquidated by the application of the moneys of the trust after meeting other liabilities. If this debt be paid, as we presume it is or neatly so, the trust is free from all debt. The papers of the trust are all inaccessible through the absence of the treasurer, who expected to be home before the close of December, but has been delayed by an accident to a friend who is travelling with him. The Minister of Education and Commissioners may accept the above statement as substantially correct, and meeting their request as far as it can be done. I have, &c, James Andeeson, John Hislop, Esq., Secretary of Education. Chairman, Board of Trustees.

Deae Sic, — Boys' Trust High School, Napier, 28th January, 1879. In reply to your request that I would forward you my reply to the schedule of queries sent to you from the Education Department, I have the honour to send you the following answers :— 1. During the past year, the school under my charge has been worked as a high school, no boy having been entered on the books during that period who was unable to read. The school, as the trustees are aware, is constituted under a trust the terms of which have been settled by a decision of the Supreme Court. The amount of salary I have received has been at the rate of £60 per annum from endowments, in addition to my share of the school fees. The work that we have attempted to do in connection with the school has been to give a good English and commercial education, in addition to teaching ihe two highest forms Latin (the Principia and Cornelius Nepos), and the highest geometry and algebra (three books of Euclid and simple equations), French, and also a little Greek. 2. Two teachers have been employed, and also a visiting drawing-master. 3. The number of pupils on the roll for the December quarter was 57, and the average attendance 51 T \ ; for the September quarter 54, and average attendance 48fJ-; for the June quarter 52, and average attendance 46J ; for the March quarter 51, and average attendance 45/,.. 4. The number of pupils on the roll for the month of December was 56, and the average attendance 43a. 5. The ages of the pupils were —Under ten, 12 ; under fifteen, 37; and under eighteen, 7. 6. The pupils were arranged in four forms, with, in some of them, two divisions. The subjects of study in the fourth form were Latin, French, geometry, Roman and English history, English grammar and composiiion, English literature, geography, and arithmetic, and, in the case of very few, bookkeeping and Greek. The number of boys in this form was 16. In the third form the subjects were Latin, British history, grammar and composition, reading, writing, and arithmetic, and also geography. Number of boys, 14. In the second form the subjects were reading and spelling, writing, arithmetic, geography, and a little grammar and history. The number of boys, 14. In the first form the subjects were reading and spelling, writing, arithmetic, and a little geography. Number of boys, 12. 7. The examination was made privately, by a select body of examiners in Napier. 8. The pupils were excluded from competition for scholarships by the regulations of the Board of Education. 9. The number of pupil-boarders was nine, accommodated in the house of the headmaster. The charge for board is £30 per annum, exclusive of fees and cost of books, stationery, washing, &c. 10. The fee for the day school is two guineas per quarter for all pupils, except when there are more than two from one family. 11. The school and headmaster's dwelling-house are connected. The schoolroom proper is large and lofty. The boys' dining-room was .also at one time used as a class-room. There are two dormitories and a lavatory for the use of the boarders, aud between two and three acres of ground in connection with the school, in a very good position. 12. A little less than £400 was last year received for fees; and of this the assistant master

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received £120, more than £20 were spent in cleaning and maintenance, and the remainder went towards the salary of the headmaster. I shall be most happy to send you any further particulars which may be required. 1 have, &c, James Anderson, Esq., Chairman of Trustees. Jno. Campbell.

Deae Sic,— Girls' Trust School, Napier, 10th February, 1879. In answer to your request that I would forward you my reply to the schedule of queries sent to you by the Education Department, I have the honour to send you the following answers : — 1. During the past year, the school under my charge has been worked as a young ladies' school, taking also little boys under seven. No salary has hitherto been received by me, my income being derived solely from my share of the school fees. The object aimed at is to give a good English education, in addition to needlework, and the usual accomplishments, when desired. 2. Two assistant teachers have been employed, as also a music-mistress. 3. The number of pupils on the roll for the December quarter was —Girls, 58 ; boys, 22 : average attendance, 68. 4. The number of pupils ou the roll for the month of December was—Girls, 65; boys, 24: average attendance, 77. 5. The ages of tbe pupils were —Under ten : Girls, 33 ; boys, 21. Under twelve : Girls, 20. Under fifteen : Girls, 12. None over sixteen. 6. The pupils were arranged in six classes, besides an infant class, numbering—Girls, 13 ; boys, 12. The subjects for instruction for the rest were reading, writing, arithmetic, and spelling in different degrees for all; for the first and second, in addition, outlines of geography. Number in classes : Girls, 20; boys, 7. For the third and fourth the same with grammar with simple English composition. Number in classes, 12; boys, 5. For the fifth and sixth, English grammar, composition, and literature, and British history. Number in classes, girls, 20. 7. The school was examined privately by two clergymen. No report was published. 8. The pupils were excluded from competition for scholarships by the regulations of the Board of Education. 9. The number of pupil-boarders was six, accommodated iv the house of the headmistress. The charge for board, inclusive of school fees, was £40 per annum. 10. The fee for the day school is £1 per quarter, many, however, paying less. 11. The school and dwelling-house are connected. The schoolroom is large and lofty, and has accommodated 100 scholars. The dining-room is used as a class-room. There is a spacious yard, used as playground. The building is situated nearly in the centre of the town, and close to the free school. 12. About £360 was received last year, inclusive of boarders' fees. Of this the assistant teachers received £70, being also boarded in the house, and at the expense of the mistress ; £40 were expended in improvements, and the remainder went to the salary of the mistress; £50 were also received in music fees, which went to the salary of the music-mistress. I should be most happy to furnish any further information required. Yours truly, James Anderson, Esq., Chairman of Trustees. M. E. 11. Gascoigne. C. —Wanganui Collegiate oe Industeial School. (See Appendix IX.) D. —Bishop's School, Nelson. The Bishop's School was founded in 1843, by the Bishop of New Zealand, and reconstituted by Bishop Hobhouse in 1861. It supplies a plain commercial education, at a smaller cost than the College. Latin and Greek aro optional subjects. The number of teachers in December, 1788, was two, with a (third) drawing-master. Headmaster, Mr. J. H. Harkness, scholar of the University of New Zealand. The number of pupils on the roll, December, 1878, 26. Average daily attendance, 25. Number for quarter ending March, 1878, 41 ; for quarter ending June, 1878, 39 ; for quarter ending September, 1878, 38. Ages : Under ten, 2 ; under fifteen, 20 ; under eighteen, 4 ; over eighteen, none. Divided into two forms, first and second, first division (6 in first form, 10 iv second); first and second, second division (4 in first, 6 in second). Subjects: Scripture, Latin, geography, Euclid, arithmetic, algebra, French, history, English grammar. Income: The whole is derivable from fees; the school being let to the Bishop without rent, so long as a school is maintained there. The repairs have been met out of the school funds. The headmaster has had £300, and the second master £150 ; but the former has been reduced, according to the attendance. The school has suffered much from recent changes of masters, but it has proved a valuable feeder to the College, and has held its ground without any endowment, and with the drawback of uot having a playground. It has recently been put on a new footing, and the numbers reduced, rendering it a more select school; but the fact of there being boys attending it now, although the Government schools have so much advanced iv what they offer, is a proof of the need of such a school, and a pledge of its continuance. The fees are £2 2s. per quarter, with extra fees for French, German, and music. Two scholarships are offered, of the value of £10 and £5, to be held for two years, and to be competed for in June. 7—H. 1. (Ap.)

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Bishop Hobhouse gives an annual Scripture prize, as does the present Bishop also. The school will, if tho consent of the Education Board be obtained, be examined by the Inspector of Public Schools. Periodical examinations are held, and pupils are prepared for the Civil Service examinations. E.—Giels' High School, Cheistchuech. 1. The funds for defraying the cost of the site and buildings of the school were provided by the Provincial Government, and tho management placed under the Board of Governors of Canterbury College. The school was established for the purpose of giving girls a higher education than that to be obtained in the district schools. 2. Tho lady-principal, Mrs. Ingle, has the supervision of the school, and also teaches the senior classes. Salary, £400; £50 allowance for house-rent, and ss. per annum capitation fee for each pupil. The other teachers are Miss Edger, 8.A., £300 per annum; Miss Hamilton, a certificated teacher (Class D), £200 per annum ; Miss Connon. an undergraduate of the University of New Zealand, who has kept two years' terms, and has passed the examination for the first-class certificate of the Canterbury Board of Education, £160; and Miss Dunnage, a certificated teacher (Class E), £160. Class singing is taught as part of the school course, by Mr. Simms, who receives £1 Is. per annum for each pupil. The other visiting teachers are paid by fees as follows : Music—Mrs. Simms, 3^ guineas per term ; Miss Fairhurst, 2| guineas ; Miss Dearden, 2 guineas. Solo Singing—Miss Taylor, 3-_- guineas. German—Mr. J. yon Tunzelmann, 1-J guineas. Drawing—Mr. Cousins, 1 guinea. Dancing and Calisthenics —Mrs. Woodroff, li guineas. French is taught as part of the school course. 3. 4. Number of pupils on the roll for the third term ending December, 1877, 90. First Term, 1878 : Number on roll, 115 ; average daily attendance, 102. Second Term, IS7B : Number on roll, 99 ; average daily attendance, 86. Third Term, 1878: Number on the roll, all female, 93; average daily attendance, 84. 5. Ages of the Pupils: Under ten years, 2; over ten and under fifteen, 65 ; over fifteen and under eighteen, 26 ; over eighteen, nil. 6. Number of Classes, and Subjects of Study: Upper First, three pupils: Arithmetic, algebra, Euclid, English, science, Latin, French. First Class, twelve pupils: Arithmetic, algebra, Euclid, English, Latin, French, science, class singing, and needlework. Second Class, twenty pupils : The same. Third Class, twenty-one pupils: The same. Fourth Class, twenty-four pupils: Arithmetic, English, French, class singing, and needlework. Fifth Class, twelve Pupils : Arithmetic, English, class singing, and needlework.

TIME-TABLE.

ji. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. 1. 1. Algebra—Miss E. 2. Arith—Miss H. 3. Arith.—Miss C. 4. Arith.—Miss D. 5. Arith. —Mrs. I. 1. Arith. 7 T,.. tt n , .,, < Miss H. 1. Arith. > 2. Algebra—Miss E. 3. Arith.—Miss C. 4. Arith.—Miss D. 5. Arith—Mrs. I. Morning. 1. French—Mrs. I. 1. Algebra—Miss E. 2. Arith.—Miss II. 3. Arith.—Miss C. 4. Arith. ) ,,. -p. 5.Arith.i MlssD1. Arith. 7 ,,. T-, 1. Arith. ) MlssH* 2. Algebra—Miss E. 3. Arith.—Miss C. 4. Arith.—Miss D. 5. Arith.—Mrs. I. 1. 1. Algebra—Miss E. 2. Arith.— Miss H. 3. Arith.—Miss C. 4. Arith. Miss D. 5. Arith.—Mrs. I. 1. Euclid—Miss C. 1. Euclid—Miss E. 2. Writing-),, j mIssD. 4. \\ riting J 5. Grammar—Miss H. 1. Grammar 1) 1. Grammar > Miss H. 2. Grammar ) 3. Geog.—Miss D. 4. Geog.—Miss E. 5. Writing—Miss C. 1. Euclid—Miss C. 1. Euclid—Miss E. 2. History ~) 3. History V Mrs. I. 4. History) 5. Grammar—Miss H. 1. Gram. -) 1. Gram, i Miss H. 2. Gram. ) 3. Geog. —Miss D. 4. Geog.—Miss E. 5. Writing—Miss C. 1. French —Mrs. I. 1. Euclid—Miss E. 2. Gram.—Miss H. 3. ri '! nS ? Miss D. ■J--" r!!"8 MissC. 5. \V ritmg J 1. Latin —Miss E. 1. French—Mrs. I. 2. Author—Miss C. 3. Dictation—Miss D. 4. Dictation ~l -. r - -„- . r, -v \ Miss H. o. Gram. i.x.) 1. Latin—Miss E. t S3 }»«■«■ 3. French—Mrs. I. 4. Grammar—Miss H. 5. Lessons—Miss D. I. Euclid—Miss C. 1. Latin —Miss E. 2. History ) 3. History V Mrs. I. 4. History ) 5. Lessons —Miss D. 1. Latin —Miss E. 1. French—Mrs. I. 2. Author—Miss C. 3. Diet.—Miss D. 4. Gram. ) 5. Gram. / Miss H. Ex. .1 1. Latin—Miss E. I- £ e°S* | Miss C. 2. Geog. ) 3. French —Mrs. I. 4. Gram. —Miss H. 5. Lessons —Miss D. 1. Latin—Miss E. 1. History and Composition —Miss II. 2. French—Mrs. I. 3. Latin—Miss C. 4. Wri., Latin) , T . -p. e T \ Miss D. 5. Lessons J 1. 1. French—Mrs. I. 1. French—Mrs. I. 1. History and Composition —Miss H. 2. Spelling—Miss E. 3. Latin —Miss C. 4. Comp. } Mis9lx 5. Reading ) 1. 1. Latin—Miss E. 1. 1. French—Mrs. I. 2. Latin—Miss E. 3. Grammar —Miss II. 4. Latin —Miss C. 5. Reading—Miss D. 2. French—Mrs. I. 3. Gram.—Miss H. 4. Latin—Miss C. 5. Lessons —Miss D. 2. Latin—Miss E. 3. Latin—Miss C. 4. Diet.—Miss H. 5. Reading —Miss D. 1. Latin—Miss E. 1. Needlework | Mis3H 2. Singing ) 3. Composition—Mrs. I. 4. Latin—Miss C. 5. Dictation—Miss D. ," | Author—Miss C. 2. Latin—Miss E. 4 ) NWork—Miss II. ,'' C Singing —Miss D. Afternoon. 1. Latin—Miss E. l'™<HlissH. 2. Singing ) 3. Latin—Miss C. 4. Maps —Mrs. I. 5. Diet.—Miss D. 1. Arith.—Miss II. 1. Latin—Miss E. 2. Comp. —Miss 0. 3. French—Mrs. I. 4. Writing ~l „,. ,-. - m • i Miss D. 5. lranscnp. ) 1. Algebra—Miss C. 1. Latin—Miss E. 2. French—Mrs. I. 3.") Needlework— 4. y Miss H. 5. j Singing—Miss D. J- ] Eng. Lit.—Miss C. 2. Latin—Miss E. 3. Reading—Miss H. 4. Reading —Miss D. 5. Maps —Mrs. I. 1. Algebra—Miss C. 1. Latin—Miss E. 2. Reading—MissH. 3. Maps—Mrs. I. 4. Comp. | Mi8 o. lranscnp. ) ,' j Eng.Lit.—MissC. 2. Latin—Miss E. 3. Reading—Miss H. 4. Reading—Miss D. 5. Maps—Mrs. I. 1* > 1. ,' [-Science. a. | 4. | 5. J 1. Latin —Miss E. 2. E. e: Miss H. 3- KTlI- Mi- c* Mture J M-D* 5.J J

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7. The school w*as inspected by the Inspector-General of Schools in the month of June. (See Report of Education Department H.-l, 1878, p. 107.) The school is examined each term by the teachers, and a report forwarded to the Board by the lady-principal. The annual examination was held in December; the examiners were Professors Brown and Cook. A copy of their report is forwarded herewith. [Not printed.] 8. Three open exhibitions of £20 each, tenable for one year, were offered by the Board of Governors for public competition, one of the conditions being that the successful candidate should attend the school during the year 1879. Four exhibitions of £10 each, to be held on the same terms as the foregoing, were awarded to the pupils in the first four classes who had distinguished themselves during the year by diligence, good conduct, and general progress. Copies of the last examination papers for the open exhibitions are forwarded herewith. 9. The school is for day scholars only. Twelve pupils reside with friends in Christchurch; the remainder live at home. There are no pupils from any other provincial district. 10. Pupils under twelve. £9 9s. per annum ; over twelve, £12 12s. per annum. Extras per Term : Music, first, £3 13s. 6d.; second, £2 12s. 6d.; third, £2 2s. German, £1 lis. 6d.; vocal music, £3 13s. Od.; drawing, £1 Is.; dancing and calisthenics, £1 lis. Od. 11. Area of School Site: Nearly one-quarter of an acre. Three-quarters of an acre adjoining is rented for one year as a playground. Half an acre fronting on Cranmer Square has been purchased as a site on which to erect new buildings, plans for which are now being prepared ; the present building, though built for the school, and very suitable for the purpose, being required for other purposes connected with Canterbury College. Maps, drawing models, &c, are provided in sufficient quantity. Instruction in science is given by Professors Brown and Bickerton, and the scientific apparatus belonging to Canterbury College is available for the illustration of their lectures. 12. Balance-sheet will be forwarded shortly. [Not received.—Sec. R. Com.] F. —Boys' High School, Dunedin. 1. Constitution, Objects, and Operations. The school was established in the year 1863 with a view to impart instruction in all the branches of a liberal education. It is divided into a lower and an upper department, each comprising three forms, and named the lower and upper schools. The lower school is intended to be preparatory to the upper. Boys are admitted about the age of eight or nine years. No examination is required for admission into the lower school; but it is expected that those who enter will be able to read an easy passage of English, and will know the four simple rules of arithmetic. The upper school is divided into two sides—the classical and the modern. The classical side is intended to prepare pupils for a University curriculum and the learned professions. The modern side, on the other hand, while also preparatory for the University, is chiefly intended to impart a first-class commercial and general education, suitable for those who desire to avail themselves of the benefits of a liberal training without going through a University curriculum. Pupils desirous of entering the upper school must pass a preliminary examination. The following syllabus shows the subjects of examination, and the standard required in each : — 1. Beading. —To read well any book of ordinary difficulty, with comprehension of the sense, and ability to explain fairly the meaning of the words and phrases. 2. Writing from Dictation. —Fair writing and good spelling. 3. English Grammar, including analysis of easy sentences. 4. Arithmetic. —Simple and compound rules, practice, simple proportion, vulgar fractions, finite decimal fractions, and exercises in square and cubic measures. 5. Geography. —Chief physical features, political divisions, and principal towns of Europe and Australasia ; also ability to draw fair outline maps. 6. Latin. —Grammar and accidence, with ability to translate into English easy Latin sentences not previously prepared. (N.B. —This subject is compulsory only on those boys who mean to take Latin in the upper school.) 7. Either (a) mathematics, including Euclid, Book 1., Props. 1-32. and algebra, four elementary rules; or (b) French —Grammar and translation into English or of easy French sentences not previously prepared. (N.B. —One of these subjects is compulsory on all who have not passed in Latin. See section 6.) The curriculum of study in the lower school embraces those subjects which form the basis of a sound English education. In the first form special attention is devoted to reading, spelling, writing, arithmetic, geography, grammar, history, and object-lessons. In the third form an opportunity is granted, to those boys whose parents desire it, to add French cr German, and Latin, to the other studies. The chief aim of the lower school is to give a thorough grounding in the elements of English aud arithmetic. In the upper school, boys who enter the classical side receive a thorough training in Latin and Greek, along with instruction in the English language and literature, history, geography, and mathematics; and have also an opportunity, if they desire it, of attending classes in natural history or modern languages, so as to enable them to enter upon the study of those subjects afterwards with greater facility. In the modern side, French and German take the place of Greek ; while more time is devoted to mathematics, natural science, and those branches which better fit boys for entering on commercial pursuits. Drawing forms a part of the regular school course, and instruction is given in freehand drawing from copies and solid models, in practical geometry, and in mechanical drawing and perspective. 2. Staff employed in the Month of December, IS7B. Rector (teaching Classics) : Wm. Macdonald, LL.D. ; salary, £800 per annum. English: Alex. Wilson, M.A., Aberdeen: salary, £300, and t_ of the fees. Mathematics and Arithmetic;

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Dan-el Brent, M.A., Cantab. ; salary, £525. Writing and Book-keeping: A. Y. Smith. German: A. Biichler; salary, £300. Natural Science :G. M. Thomson, Edinburgh ; salary, £300, and -J- of boarding fees. Junior Masters : G. Montgomery, 8.A., New Zealand ; salary, £200. J. C. F. Ulbrick, 8.A., Melbourne; salary, £250. Drawing: D. C. Hutton, Alex. Anderson, Provincial Drawing Masters. Gymnastics: Oscar David; salary, fees. Drill: Sergeant-Major Stevens. Janitor: Richard B. Wilson ; salary, £140. 3. Attendance. Number of pupils on the roll, December quarter, 1878, 156. Average daily attendance for 1878 : First quarter, 116 ; second quarter, 133 ; third quarter, 151; fourth quarter, 147. Number on the roll for the month of December, 1878,156. Average daily attendance, 147. 4. Abstract of Attendance for the past Five Years. 1874 : First quarter, 102 ; second quarter, 102 ; third quarter, 103 ; fourth quarter, 103. 1875 : First quarter, 115 ; second quarter, 134 ; third quarter, 146 ; fourth quarter, 159. 1876 : First quarter, 180; second quarter, 191; third quarter, 190; fourth quarter, 194. 1877 : First quarter, 184; second quarter, 191; third quarter, 177 ; fourth quarter, 172. 1878; First quarter, 121 ; second quarter, 149 ; third quarter, 168 ; fourth quarter, 156. 5. Ages of Pupils. The ages of the pupils in December, 1878, were, —Under ten, 6; over ten and under fifteen, 117 ; over fifteen and under eighteen, 33: total, 150. 6. Classes. The classes into which the pupils w*ere arranged were as follows: —First, second lower, second upper, third lower, third upper, fourth, and fifth. The subjects of study were, — Class I. Reading, grammar, history, composition, geography, elementary botany and objectlessons, writing, arithmetic, and drawing. Class 11. The same subjects as the first class, with the addition of Latin aud Greek. Class 111. All the above subjects, with the addition of algebra and Euclid. Class IV. All the above, with the addition of Greek, English literature, German, practical trigonometry, logarithms, and chemistry. Class V. Same subjects as the fourth class. Number of pupils in each class: First class, 21; second lower, 36 ; second upper, 26; third lower, 22 ; third upper, 37 ; fourth, 6 ; fifth, 8.

TIME-TABLE.

Form. Hours. Monday. ' Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. lower I. a.m. 1 2 3 p.m. 1 2 3 a.m. 1 2 8 p.m. 1 2 3 a.m. 1 2 3 p.m. 1 2 Writing English Arithmetic Grammar Drawing English Arithmetic Geography Writing English Arithmetic Grammar Drill Writing English Arithmetic Geography Writing. English. Arithmetic. Grammar. rpper I. English Writing Arithmetic Grammar Drawing Writing Arithmetic Geography English Writing Arithmetic Grammar Drill English Writing Arithmetic Geography English. Writing. Arithmetic. Grammar. ;0wer II. 3 a.m. 1 2 3 p.m. 1 2 3 a.m. 1 2 3 p.m. 1 Writing Arithmetic Latiu English 2.30-3: Geog. (N.Z.) 3-3.30: Gram. Writing Arithmetic Latin English ... Grammar Writing Arithmetic Latin English 2.30-3 : Geog. (E.) 3-3.30: Gram. Writing Arithmetic Latin English Geog.: Mackay Writing Arithmetic Latin English 2.30-3: Gram. 3-30: Drill ... Writing Arithmetic Latin English Grammar, Drill Drill Arithmetic Writing Latin Geog., Reading, &c. Latin Drill Arithmetic German Geog., Grammar Drawing Arithmetic Object-lesson ... English 2.30-3: Geog. (N.Z.) 3-3.30: Gram. Drawing Arithmetic Latin English Geog. (N.Z.) ... Writing. Arithmetic. Latin. English. 2.30-3: Geog. (E.) 3-3.30: Grammar. Writing. Arithmetic. Latin. English. Grammar. pper II. <ower III. Arithmetic Writing Latin Geog., Reading, &e. Latin Drawing Arithmetic German Geog., Grammar Arithmetic German Latin Parsing Exer., Grammar Read., Dictation Arithmetic German Latin Reading, Gram. Exercise Dictation Drawing Arithmetic Writing Analysis Exer., Reading Latin Latin Arithmetic. Writing. Latin. Reading, Gram. 2 3 a.m. 1 2 3 Latin. pper III. Arithmetic Writing Parsing Exer., History Latin Latiu Arithmetic. French. Reading, History. p.m. 1 2 Latin Reading Latin Dictation Latin. Dictation, Read., to. 3 Drawing Drill Drawing

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* Also German. 7. Examiners. Special examiners are appointed by the Board of Governors to examine the whole school annually. [Copy of Mr. F. Chapman's report on the school received. —Sec R. Com.] 8. Scholarships. There are no scholarships in connection with the High School, but the Otago Education Board has during the year established twelve scholarships, six of which are junior and six senior. Tn connection with the senior scholarships it is made a condition that the holders shall attend the Dunedin High School (Boys' or Girls', as the case may be) during the latter two years of their tenure. 9. Boarding Department. During the last quarter of 1878 there were twenty-three boarders, of whom six were weekly boarders. None from beyond the provincial district. The boarders are under the direct supervision of Mr. Thomson, who is present during lesson-time and home preparation. In the event of bis having to be absent some substitute is provided, by whom the work is supervised. The fees are, —For regular boarders, £10 per quartet*; for weekly boarders, £8 15s. per quarter. The establishment is carried on solely on account and at the expense of the Board, Mr. Thomson having no direct interest in its financial success. Provision is made by which those boarders who wish to learn music may practise regularly. 10. Day-school Fees. The fee charged for each pupil in the day school is £2 2s. Od. per quarter. 11. School Buildings, Library, Sfc. The present school buildings are quite unsuitable, and are so situated that there can never be a playground worthy of the name attached to them. If the present buildings could be applied to some other purpose a new and commodious building should be erected in some more suitable posit ion. This is a matter which urgently calls for the attention of the Government.

Time-table — continue Form. Hours. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. I Friday. on-Latin III. a.m. 1 2 3 Arithmetic German Geog., Grammar Arithmetic Writing Parsing Exer., History Mathematics ... German Arithmetic German Geog., Grammar Arithmetic Writing Analysis Exer., Reading Mathematics ... German Arithmetic. French. Reading, History. p.m. 1 2 Mathematics ... Reading Mathematics ... Dictation Mathematics. Dictation, Reading, &c. IV. 3 a.m. 1 2 Drawing Latin : Ctesar ... Comp. Exer., Morris's Hist., Gram., Read. French : Gram. Math. : Algebra and Euclid Arithmetic Drawing Chem., Comp. Exercise Morris's History, Grammar French : Gram. Latin : Caesar ... Geog., Milton... Drill Latin: Csesar... Gram. Exer., Bain's Gram. Drawing Latin : Caisar ... Geog., Milton ... Latin : Cajsar. Paraphr. Exercise, Morris and Milton. French: Gram. Mathematics. 3 p.m. 1 Botany Mathematics ... French : Read., Mathematics ... Botany Mathematics ... 2 3 a.m. 1 Latiu: Syntax Arithmetic Drill German: Revis., Gram. Exer. Bain's Grammar Arithmetic Drawing Chemistry, Geog. Latin: Syntax. Con-Latin IV. German : Read., Geography Milton German: Paraphr. Exercise. Morris and Milton. 2 Milton 3 Botany French: Read., Exercise Mathematics ... Botany French: Gram. V. p.m. 1 2 3 a.m. 1 Math.: Algebra and Euclid Arithmetic Drawing Bain's Grammar, English Comp. Latin : Virgil ... Algebra French: Read. Mathematics ... German: Etym. Maeaulay, Morris's Gram. Latin: Virgil... Euclid #French: Gram., Exercise, and Reading Algebra Arithmetic Drill Paraphr. Exer., Shakespeare Latin : Virgil... Arithmetic French: Ex tempore Exer. (free trans.) Latin: Comp Drill Paraphr. Exer., Shakespeare Mathematics ... Arithmetic Drawing Maeaulay, Morris Mathematics. German: Reading. Gram., Analysis Exer., Shakesp. Botany. Euclid. French : Reading and Revision. 2 3 p.m. 1 Latin : Virgil ... Algebra * French: Gram., Exercise, and Reading Arithmetic Drawing Maeaulay, Morris's Hist., Grammar Botany Algebra Latin: Livy and Composition French: Gram., Exercise, and Reading 2 3 a.m. 1 Latin: Comp.... Drawing Bain's Gram., Eng. Comp. Maeaulay, Morris's Hist., Grammar Botany Euclid Latiu : Livy ... Latin: Comp. Analysis Exer., &c., Shakespeare. VI. 2 3 p.m. 1 Chemistry Algebra Latin : Livy and Composition French: Read. Chemistry Arithmetic Latin i Livy ... Chemistry. Euclid. Latin: Translation at sight. French: Reading and Revision. 2 French : Gram., Exercise, and Reading French: Ex tempore Exer. (free trans.)

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The library contains in all 289 volumes. The novels comprise the works of Scott, Dickens, Lytton, Cooper, Marryatt, Kingston, &c.; also Wilson's Border Tales, Chambers's Miscellany, Edgeworth's Tales, and others of a like character. Among the works of travels are Livingstone's and Stanley's works, Cook's Voyages, Darwin's Voyage round the World, &c. It also contains scientific and historical works, such as Carpenter's Zoology, Tyndall on Heat, Brewster's Natural Magic, Layard's Nineveh, Carlyle's French Revolution, &c. The laboratory consists of a room 20 feet square, one end of which is entirely occupied with wallpresses for apparatus and chemicals. There are three working benches, with eighteen gas jets ; and water is laid on. The apparatus includes everything necessary for analytical and experimental chemistry—viz., in glassware, flasks, retorts, tubing, beakers, test tubes, funnels, pipettes, dialysers, bell-jars, receivers, globes, eudiometers, hydrometers, thermometers, combustion tubes, &c. ; valuable balances and gramme weights, porcelain evaporating basins, &c, blowpipes, blowing machine, gas furnaces, combustion furnaces; argaud, rose, and Bunsen burners; hot-air and sand baths, gasholders, oxy-hydrogen blowpipes, hessian, plumbago, porcelain and platinum crucibles; iron, porcelain, and agate mortars ; retort stands, distilling apparatus, Smee's battery, Leyden jars, &C. Complete sets of chemical reagents, including every necessary substance. Other scientific apparatus include one Hartnack and Prasmowski's microscope, with 1-in. and v-in. objectives, 3 eye-pieces ; camera lucida, goniometer, polarizer, &c. ; and one Machet's microscope with similar objectives and eye-pieces. Museum. —About three or four years ago a start was made in the formation of a museum under the direction of the science teacher. Attention was chiefly devoted to zoology (botanical specimens being considered too bulky for the available room), and a collection of 200 or 300 invertebrates—mostly Crustacea, mollusca, and insects—was made. Owing, however, to want of funds to furnish more accommodation, the amassing of a collection ceased after the only available case was filled. Great interest was taken in the work while it lasted. Drawing Apparatus. —One set elementary outlines, 1 set outlines of ornaments, 1 set outlines of human figure, 1 set albertollis foliage, 1 set freehand outlines, 1 set outlines of animals, 1 renaissance rosette, 1 burdock, 1 poppy, 1 Gothic patera, and 1 box models. A good many of the above are worn out. Maps. —Modern maps are 35 in number. There are duplicates of most of them. Ancient maps are 11 in number. 12. Geneeal Statement of Income and Expend etude for tho Year ending 31st December, 1878. Income. £ s. d. Expenditure. £ s. d. To Bovs'High School fees ... ... 1,063 10 0 By salaries, Boys' High School ... ... 2,831 7 3 Girls' High School fees ... ... 1,053 12 6 „ Girls' High School ... ... 1,626 19 8 Eectory boarding fees ... ... 906 O O „ Janitor, &c... ... ... 180 O 0 Colonial Government grants ... ... 1,703 13 7 Incidental expenses — Bents of High School reserves ... 696 8 4 Bates ... ... ... ... 41 O O Interest. Bank of N.Z. ... ... 14 19 O Incidentals ... ... ... 107 16 O Overdraft, Bank of N.Z. ... ... 1,045 7 8 Fuel ... ... ... ... 3110 3 Printing, &c. ... ... ... 61 14 5 Chemical apparatus ... ... ... 24 17 6 Buildings ... ... ... ... 341 8 5 Bet-ring allowances (compensation) — Mrs. Martin ... ... ... 150 0 0 Wm. Norrie ... ... ... 175 0 0 MissHuie ... ... ... 102 10 0 Bectory —Buildings ... ... ... 79 14 7 Furnishing ... ... ... 127 13 10 Supplies ... ... ... 568 2 5 Insurance ... ... ... ... 33 16 9 £6,483 11 1 £6,483 11 1 G.—Giels' High School, Dunedin. 1. Constitution, Objects, and Operations. The aim of the educational course given in tho Girls' High School is to train the girls to be thoughtful young women, who will, when they leave school, continue to add to the knowledge acquired during their attendance there, and thus fit themselves for being useful members of society. The school is divided into an upper and lower department, each comprising two classes ; these classes are again subdivided when necessary. No examination is required for admission to tho lower school; but it is expected that those entering shall be able to read and spell fairly, and shall know the four simple rules of arithmetic. The aim in the low*er school is to lay the foundation of a sound English education —the studies being reading, spelling, grammar, composition, arithmetic, geography, object-lessons, writing, and class singing. Very simple lessons in history are also given. When the pupils reach the second class they begin French unless the parents desire otherwise. In Ci. class simple science lessons take the place of object-lessons. Botany and physiography form the science course of the upper school. No pupil will be allowed to enter the upper school without having passed a satisfactory examination in all the subjects taught in the lower school. Latin will form a subject of study for any girls who intend to compote at New Zealand University examinations. This language will be commenced when the pupils enter the upper school. In the upper school, mathematics forms an important part of the school work as a means of training the girls to habits of steady and accurate thought. The pupils of the A classes are also introduced to the study of English classics, a book of "Paradise Lost" or one of Shakespeare's plays being read critically each session.

£6,483 11 1

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Gymnastic classes are conducted during the winter six months of the year, and attendance at this class is strongly recommended as a means of physical education. 2. Teachers employed in the Month of December, 1878. Lady-Principal (General Supervision) : Mrs. M. G. Burn ; salary, £275, and £1 for each pupil. Assistants: A. J. Jardine (higher English, Latin, and mathematics), salary £300; Miss M. McGregor, salary £175 ; Miss Douglas, salary £175 ; Miss Gillies, salary £130. Science : Geo. M. Thomson. Drawing : Mr. Hutton and assistants. Teachers of extra classes— Music: Mesdames White, Wilmot, and Spooner. Singing: Mrs. White. Dancing and Calisthenics: Mr. Kelly. Gymnastics : Mr. Oscar David. 3. Number of Pupils. Average daily attendance, 1878: First quarter, 114; second quarter, 123; third quarter, 119; fourth quarter, 122. Number of pupils on roll for the month of December, 1878: 132 ; average daily attendance: 122. 4. Attendance Betums for the past Five Years. Abstract of attendance returns for the past five years : For 1874, 139 ; 1875, 109 ; 1876, 193 ; 1877, 168; 1878, 132. 5. Ages of Pupils. The ages of the pupils in December, 1878, were —Under ten years of age, 2 ; over ten and under fifteen years, 99 ; over fifteen and under eighteen years, 29; over eighteen years, 2. 6. Classes. The classes into which the pupils were arranged were as follows: A, B, Ci., Cu., Di., Du. The subjects of study were, — Class A. English, history, geography, science, mathematics, French, German, Latin, drawing. Class B. English, history, geography, science, mathematics, Latin, French, German, drawing, writing, needlework. Classes Ci. and Cu. English, geography, botany, history, arithmetic, French, drawing, writing, needlework. Class Di. English, history, geography, object-lessons, arithmetic, French, drawing, writing, needlework. Class Du. Same as Di., with the exception of French and drawing. Extra time given to English and writing. The number of pupils in each class were —A, 13 ;8,26 ; Ci., 34; Cu., 27; D, 31.

TIME-TABLE.

7. Examiners. Special examiners are appointed by the Board of Governors to examine the whole school annually. [Copies of reports on the Girls' High School by Mr. F. Chapman, Mr. D. Petrie, and Professor Shand, received.—Sec. R. Com.]

Form. Hours. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. Kvision A. livision B. Jivision Cl. a.m. 1 2 3 p.m. 1 2 a.m. 1 2 3 p.m. 1 2 a.m. 1 2 3 p.m. 1 Arithmetic Botany History Latin Geography Grammar History Euclid German Geography Grammar History Arithmetic Etymology and Dictation Writing Grammar French Algebra Euclid Drawing Botany Composition ... Algebra French Drawing French Geography Milton Physiography... French Latin Composition ... French Shakespeare ... Arithmetic German Needlework Botany Arithmetic Botany History Latin Geography Grammar History Euclid German Geography Grammar History Grammar. French. Algebra. Euclid. Drawing. Botany. Writing. Algebra. French. Drawing. French. Geography. Reader Composition ... Etymology or Dictation Writing Reader. Hvision Cu. 2 Drawing Needlework and Poetry Object-lesson ... Composition or Class Singing Arithmetic Needlework and Poetry Writing Needlework and Poetry. Drawing. Grammar. a.m. 1 o French History Grammar Spelling and Dictation Arithmetic Reader French History 3 p.m. 1 Arithmetic Geography Arithmetic Geography Arithmetic. Reader. 2 Writing French Spelling and Dictation History Needlework and Poetry. French, or Spelling and Dictation. Reader. Arithmetic. Grammar. •ivision D. a.m. 1 History French or Grammar Reader Arithmetic Grammar Object-lesson or Composition Class Singing ... Arithmetic Reader 2 3 p.m. 1 Geography Arithmetic Needlework and Poetry Writing Geography Arithmetic Needlework and Poetry Writing 2 Drawing Spelling and Dictation Spelling and Dictation.

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8. Scholarships. There are no scholarships in connection with the High School; but the Otago Education Board has during the year established twelve scholarships, six of which are junior and six senior. In connection with the senior scholarships, it is made a condition that the holders shall attend the Dunedin High School (Boys' or Girls', as the case may be) during the latter two years of their tenure. 9. Boarding Department. The boarding department is under the superintendence of Mrs. Burn, who is assisted in her duties by a well-qualified resident governess. The terms are —Day boarders, £3 per quarter; weekly boarders (without washing), £10 10s. per quarter ; resident boarders (including washing), £13 2s. 6d. per quarter —exclusive of day-school fees. During the last quarter of 1878 there were fifteen pupilboarders, of whom oue was from Wellington, one from Canterbury, aud one from Southland. 10. School Fees. The fees charged for pupils in the day school are —Day pupils (ordinary course), senior, £2 10sper quarter; junior, ditto, £2 per quarter. Extras —Piano : Mrs. White, £3 3s. per quarter ; MrsWilmot, £2 2s. per quarter ; Mrs. Spooner, £2 2s. per quarter. Singing: Two half-hour lessons per week, £3 3s. per quarter ; two one-hour lessons per week, £5 ss. per quarter. Gymnastics : 10s. 6d. per quarter. Dancing: £1 lis. 6d. per quarter. 11. School Buildings, Library, fyc. The present school buildings are quite unsuitable, and are so situated that there never can be a playground, worthy of the name, attached to them. A library was subscribed for by the girls soon after the opening of the school. The Education Board subsidized, in books, the amount subscribed at the rate of £1 for £1. The number of books is now 500. There is no museum or laboratory in connection with the school, but the use of the laboratory belonging to the Boys' School is granted when necessary. There are also belonging to the school the following appliances : (a.) A complete apparatus for a course of lessons on heat, (b.) A geological cabinet (specially prepared in London), (c.) A cabinet for object-lessons, (d.) Botanical, zoological, physiological, geological, and other diagrams, (c.) A full supply of maps, (f) Two globes, (g.) Models of conic sections, mechanical powers, and drawing casts and models. 12. Income and Expenditure. The general statement of the income and expenditure for the year ending 31st December, 1878, is included in the statement given under Boys' High School. H.—lnveecaegill Giels' High School. Letter from Secretary of Board. SlE,— Invercargill, 10th March, 1879. I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of 17th ultimo, requesting information relative to matters contained in the schedule accompanying it, and in reply to inform you,— 1. There are at present in the Invercargill Girls' High School no copy of prospectus or timetables. 2. The school was opened on 10th of February, 1879. 3. The duties of the lady-principal are to teach the first, or highest, class, and generally to superintend the school. 4. List of teachers, as under : — Salary. Lady-principal, Miss Hood ... ... ... ... £400 per annum. First assistant teacher, Miss Atkins ... ... ... £225 „ Second assistant teacher, Miss Millne ... ... ... £200 „ Qualifications: Miss Hood is qualified to impart a first-class education; Miss Atkins to teach English and arithmetic. Miss Millne is capable of imparting instruction in languages. 5. There is no library or museum attached to the institution; and no laboratory, cabinets of scientific apparatus, drawing models, or diagrams, but simply a few school maps. 6. The school opened with a roil of fifty-seven pupils, which has been steadily increasing. 7. One pupil resides away from home. None reside beyond the provincial district. I have, &c, The Secretary, F. Nuttee, Royal Commission on University and Higher Education. Secretary, High School Board. IX.—ENDOWMENTS FOR RELIGIOUS, INDUSTRIAL, AND ENGLISH EDUCATION OF BOTH RACES, ETC. A.—Theee Kings and othee WesleVan Endowments in Auckland. (See Appendix V 1.—8., Wesley College.) B.—St. Maet's, Noeth Shoee, Auckland (Roman Catholic). (See evidence of Rev. H. J. Fynes.) Estate valued at £4,000. Income, £40 per annum. Sum in hand, £180. Operations have ceased for several years.

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C.—St. Stephen's, Paenell, Auckland (Church or England). Statement furnished by Bey. B. Burrows. Number of Scholars during the last Eight Years.— lB7l, IG; 1872, 23; 1873, 28 ; 1874, 33; 1875, 38 ; 1876, 31 (the children of the Maori theological students left with their parents at the end of the year 1875, and did not return, which accounts for the smaller number of pupils in 1876) ; 1877, 44; 1878, 55: also two learning trades and lodging at the institution. The total number admitted to February 10th, 1879 -. 119. Highest Number. —There have been eleven new boys admitted already this quarter. The attendance on February 10th was 47; February 11th, 53 ; and eight more of last year's scholars are expected, during the week, which will give us a higher number than we have had before. Ages. —From six to eighteen years. Highest Standard of Education reached. —Reading: Royal Reader, Standard VI. Arithmetic': Vulgar and decimal fractions, bills of parcels, practice, proportion and mensuration. Geography : Descriptive, mathematical, and physical; map-drawing. Grammar (English) : Parsing and analysis, English composition, letter-writing, dictation, and object-lessons. Drawing. School Accommodation. —Good. Occupation of Boys while at the Institution. —Rise at 6 a.m. ; sweep bedrooms, &c. Bible reading and prayers, from 7to 7.30. Breakfast, 7.30. General work connected with the school, from Bto 9. School hours, from 9 to 12, and from 2 to 4. Dinner at 1. Tea at 5. Play hours, from 12 to 1, 4to 5, and from 5.30 to 7 evening. Lessons, from 7 to 8. Prayers at 8. All expected to be in bed at 10. Food. —Breakfast: Bread and dripping with tea, milk and sugar. Dinner : Meat and potatoes (pudding on Sundays). Tea: Bread and butter with tea, sugar and milk. Clothing. —Mostly provided by the parents and friends, the remainder by the manager. Habits. —Naturally slovenly, but amenable to discipline. General Health. —Good. Who and what are the Scholars ? —Maoris and half-castes, from all parts of the North Island ; at the present time mostly Maoris, sons of Native chiefs, children of Natives in whom the Government are interested ; some who live a long distance from any school ; orphans and sons of Native pastors. Management, Staff, &c, and Salaries. —Trustees, manager, master, and assistant master in the morning. The assistant has £60 per annum, paid from Church Missionary Society's funds ; master, £140 per annum (£lOO from Government and £40 from estate) ; assistant master, £60 per annum for the morning. The master has his house and firing provided for taking charge of institution and care of boys out of school hours. Revenue. —£lB per head per year is paid by Government to manager for all boys sent or approved of by them. The Government also pay £100 per year towards the master's salary. The remainder is obtained from rents of land belonging to the institution and from tho Church Missionary Society. What becomes of the Boys when they leave School. —Several have been apprenticed to trades, and have given satisfaction; two are at present in the Government service ; others have returned to their friends ; and ten have died. How the Institution could be improved by an Additional Grant, or if more Funds were available. —The assistant master should be employed in the afternoon as well as in the morning, as the Native pupils cannot be depended on. An intelligent middle-aged woman should be appointed to assist iv taking charge of smaller boys, &c. Wants. —A lavatory, bath-room, and wash-house are required. The cooking apparatus is deficient (a large kitchen range is very much needed). There is not enough water during the dry season. The dormitories are insufficient for the increased number of scholars. A gymnasium also is wanted. D. —Poveett Bat Nattve School (Cuuech of England). Letter from Bey. W. L. Williams to Secretary to Boyal Commission. Sic,— Gisborne, 19th February, 1879. I have the honour to acknowledge your letter of the 29th ultimo, addressed to the trustees of Poverty Bay Native School, and requesting them to furnish, for the information of the Royal Commission on University and Higher Education, a statement as to the condition, value, and application of any such endowment or grants made in favour of Poverty Bay Native School. Assuming that the property with reference to which information is sought is that which is commonly known as the " Waerengahika Native School Trust," which was a gift from the aboriginal natives to the General Synod of tho body commonly known as the Church of England (and not a grant from the public estate), and for which I am one of the trustees, I would, on behalf of tho trustees, respectfully ask the permission of the Commissioners to refer them to certain papers which have been laid before Parliament, as these contain a full history of the trust property up to 30th June, 1875. The papers I refer to are these: — 1. Second Report of the Commission of Inquiry iuto the Condition and Nature of Trust Estates for Religious, Charitable, and Educational Purposes, dated 30th June, 1869, and marked A.-sa, pages 1 and 2. 2. Papers relating to Native schools, 1872, marked F.-5, page 5. 3. Report and Proceedings of the Select Committee of the Legislative Council on Te Aute College and other Educational Trust Estates. 1875, No. 5, pages 29-37. As a supplement to the information contained in the papers above named, I beg leave to enclose an abstract of the accounts from 30th June, 1875, to 30th June, 1878. The Commissioners will see from the information now submitted to them — 1. That the estate is let for £400 per annum, and that the lease will expire on 25th March, 18S7; 2. That the estate is now clear of debt, and that a portion of the rent has been applied towards the support of the Native Girls' School, Napier, at which a number of girls from the Poverty Bay District have been pupils; B—H. 1. (Ap.)

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3. That on the 30th of June last there was a balance in hand of £440 15s. Bd. I may add that it is the intention of the trustees, as soon as there may be sufficieut funds for buildiug, to get a good school for Native children established in the district in which the trust is situated. I have, &c, Rev. W. J. Habens, W. L. Williams. Secretary, Royal Commission on Higher Education. The Teustees in Account with the Waeeengahika Native School Teust from 30th June, 1875, to 30th June, 1878. 1876. Receipts. £ s. d. 1876. Expenditure. £ s. d. March 25. To rent one year and interest ... 401 6 8 March 25. By liquidation of debt ... ... 321 18 4 Frocceds of sale of cattle and Native Girls' School, Napier ... 201 6 8 interest ... ... ... 121 18 4 £523 5 0 £523 5 0 Memo, of Liabilities. £ s. d. £ s. d. Balance debt ... ... ... 68 3 9 Six months'interest on £268 3s. 9d. 9 7 9 Six months' interest on £277 lis. 6d. 914 3 £87 5 9 1876. £ s. d. 1876. £ s. d. Nov. 11. To half-year's rent, due 25th Sep- Nov. 11. By liquidation of debt ... ... 90 610 tember, 1876 ... ... 200 0 0 1877. Half-year's rent, duo 25th March, June 30. Balance at interest at 6 per cent. 314 0 6 1877 ... ... ... 200 0 0 1877. Juno 30. Five months' interest on £109 13s. 2d. to date ... ... 3 4 0 One month's interest on £200 to date ... ... ... 13 4 £104 7 4 £404 7 4 1877. £ s. d. 1877. £ s. d. June 30. To balanco ... ... ... 314 0 6 Oct. 23. By Native Girls' School, Napier ... 100 0 0 Oct. 17. Bent due 25th September, per 1878. Graham and Co. ... ... 200 0 0 June 30. Balance ... ... ... 440 15 8 1878. June 30. Interest on £314 Os. 6d., for one year ... ... ... 21 19 8 Interest on £100, for 249 days... 4 15 6 £540 15 8 £540 15 8 W. L. Williams, For the Trustees. E.—Wanganui Industeial School. Letter from the Bishop of Wellington (ivith Enclosures) to Secretary to Boyal Commission. Sic,— Wanganui, March 14th, 1879. I have the honour to forward the information required by your letters of January 27th and February 17th, concerning the Wanganui Collegiate School. I am, however, unable to supply answers to all the questions. My inability to do so has in a great measure arisen from the fact that the trustees were obliged, rather suddenly, to part with the headmaster early last year during term time. The present trustees had no connection with the institution at its foundation. They are trustees acting under the authority of the General Synod. According to the terms of the grant the school is open to all races. During the latter half of last year there were two masters, G. R. Saunders, Esq., and G. Ansen, Esq., both graduates of the University of Cambridge. The duties and powers of the headmaster are such as are usual in schools such as this is. The school is at present a day school. The schoolrooms have just been completed. Hitherto, from want of funds, the school has been carried on under great disadvantages. I herewith enclose information supplied by Mr. Saunders, and the reports of examinations by S. J. Fitzherbert, Esq., a graduate of the University of Cambridge, and W. H. Barnicoat, Esq., barrister. I also forward a statement of accounts from the agent, E. Churton, Esq. I have, &c., Rev. W. J. Habens, Secretary to Commission. O. Wellington. Attendance. —Average daily during the months of October, November, and December, 1878, 36; boys over eleven, 22 ; boys under eleven, 14. Boarders. —Arrangements made by parents with regard to boys residing at a distance. Scale of Charges. —Boys over eleven, £7 per annum; boys under eleven, £6 per annum. Grounds, Buildings, <sfc. —The school ground consists of about three acres (including playground and cricket reserve). A new schoolhouse has been erected and is almost ready for occupation. Arrangement of Classes, Subjects taught, §c. —The subject-matter taught has included Greek, Latin, and mathematics, and the ordinary branches of English instruction —English grammar and the analysis of sentences, geography (physical and political), and English history. The sixth form are reading C_sar, Virgil, and Horace, together with elementary Latin composition, and Greek

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accidence, with very elementary exercises. In mathematics the instruction embraces arithmetic, algebra, and Euclid—only one boy has been reading trigonometry. The remaining forms of the upper school are in a more or less advanced state in the above subjects with the exception of Greek. The lower school boys are working at declensions and vocabularies (with exercises) found in Smith's Latin Principia, Part 1., the elementary rules of arithmetic, and the English subjects enumerated in the upper division without the analysis of sentences. Map-drawing is cultivated in both divisions of the school, and an English essay is expected from time to time. Wanganui, 28th February, 1879. G. R. Saundees. Examiners' Beports. At the recent examination of the Industrial School I set papers to J. Peat in Sallust (Jugurtha) and Virgil (Books I. and II.). His papers in Sallust were only moderate, and he seemed in some instances to translate in a reckless way, without fully understanding the passage he was rendering. In Virgil, however, he did very much better, and his translation of one passage was exceedingly good. In Horace (Sapphic Odes, Books I. and II.) I examined Bridge, Peat, Tripe, Pawson, and Mauley, whom I have placed in order of merit. The first three were close together, and show*ed up highly satisfactory papers; tbe last two did very fairly; and I was much pleased with the papers in this subject. In every case I gave questions relating to the geographical and historical allusions contained in the passages set, and these were answered tolerably well. In conclusion, I think that the results of my examination as a whole are decidedly creditable to the pupils and masters of the school. Wanganui, 16th January, 1878. Samuel J. Fitzheebeet. My Loed, — Wanganui, lst January, 1879. At the request of Mr. Saunders, I have examined (by papers) the scholars in the upper division of the Wanganui Endowed School in English history, grammar, and geography, and I now enclose lists showing the marks gained in each subject, aud the order of merit of the different papers sent in. The English history paper extended over a long period. Taking into consideration the fact that the questions were selected from all parts of the English history, I think that the papers were on the whole very good. The full marks for grammar wero 120, and the marks gained will show that there were many good papers. Very few gained marks for their answers to the last two questions. The last question was not answered absolutely correctly by any one. Most boys answered all the questions in the geography paper. The answers to this paper were, as a rule, good. I understand that a special prize is given for drawing the map from memory. I was asked to set a map of Hindostan, South America, or Greece, and chose South America. Bridge's map is the best, and John Peat's next. Some of the maps sent in were very well done, and lam satisfied could only have been drawn by boys who had taken considerable pains iv preparing themselves before the examination. All my papers have been well answered by a majority of the boys, and fairly by almost all. The Right Rev. the Lord Bishop of Wellington, I have, &c, Wanganui. W. 11. Baenicoat. Receipts and Expendituee of the Wanganui Industeial ScnooL Teustees for the Tear 1878. Receipts. £ s. d. Expenditure. £ s. d. Rent of land ... ... ... ... 690 5 1 Salaries of masters ... ... ... 416 3 4 Pupils'fees from Ist July ... ... 72 15 0 Fencing playground, &c. ... ... 90 6 2 Compensation for land taken for railway ... 595 0 0 Eepairs of school and house ... ... 14 3 6 Interest on ditto (Bank deposit) ... ... 24 15 3 Insurance ... ... ... ... 810 0 Rates (£l6 6s. to be paid by tenants) ... 18 0 0 Prizes ... ... ' ... ... 7 0 0 Advertising contracts, printing, &c. ... 16 3 4 Paid towards improving cricket-ground ... 10 10 0 Auction expenses on sale of leases, £345 ... 27 8 0 „ £158 ... 15 6 3 J. Henson's compensation for buildings and resigning lease ... ... ... 225 0 0 Interest till date of payment ... ... 18 10 6 Surveyor for plan of sections ... ... 11 19 6 Levelling and fencing for new schoolhouso 42 2 0 Surveyor ... ... ... ... 500 Advance to contractor on contract, £956 ... SOO 0 0 E. Churton's commission (1 per cent.) on negotiating sale of land for railway purposes ... ... ... ... 600 E. Churton's commission (5 per cent.) on amount collected, £763 ... ... 38 3 0 £1,382 15 4 £1,370 5 7 Wanganui, 6th March, 1879. E. Chueton, Agent. F.—Te Aute, Waieaeapa, and Otaki Estates. Letter from the Bishop of Wellington (with Enclosure) to Secretary to Boyal Commission. Sic,— Wanganui, 25th March, 1879. Referring to your letters of January 29th, asking for information concerning the various school estates mentioned by you, I have the honour to report as follows: — With reference to Wanganui Estate, I forwarded to you the report of Mr. Churton, the agent. I

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have only to add that the rents derived from the estate are wholly devoted to the support of the school. Te Aute. —I enclose a memorandum forwarded to me by the Rev. Samuel Williams, who is well acquainted with all particulars connected with the Te Aute Estate. I may here mention that Parliamentary Papers contain very full information in reference to this estate. Porirua. —The Porirua Estate consists of 500 acres of rough undulating land. It is now leased at a rental of £75 per annum. Tho money received is invested in landed securities, for the purpose of allowing it to accumulate to provide a fund sufficient to enable the trustees to establish a college. Very full particulars of all funds connected with this estate have been recently supplied to the Legislative Council, and are contained in the Journals of Parliament. Wairarapa. —There are two school estates at Wairarapa. Papawai consists of 400 acres. Tho greater part of this is bush and swamp land, but the rest is open. It is let at a rental of £35 per annum for ten years, with covenants to clear and fence. Kaikokirikiri consists of 190 acres of open land. It was let in 186S for twenty-one years. The present rent is £30 per annum, but will be £40 per annum for the last seven years. There is a covenant to fence the whole estate. A Maori boarding-school was at one time carried on in connection with these estates. At present the rents are allowed to accumulate, with a view to future operations. Otaki. —The several Crown grants connected with the Otaki Estate comprise about 580 acres. By far the greater part originally consisted of swamps and sandhills, of which the Native owners could make no use. It is now enclosed, and chiefly under grass. It is let at a rental of £200 per annum. The proceeds arc expended in paying the schoolmaster's salary and supporting tbe school. There are on the estate a schoolhousc, schoolrooms, a dwelling-house, and a barn and small cottage. These buildings were erected more than twenty-eight years ago. There is at present only a day school. The boarding-school was closed some years ago, after twenty years' existence, for want of funds. I beg leave to say, in reference to ail these estates, that I am wholly unqualified to give any opinion as to their value, and must therefore decline to make any guesses on such a subject. I have, &c, Rev. W. J. Habens, Secretary to Royal Commission, O. Wellington. Wellington.

A Statement for the information of the Trustees of the Te Aute School Estate. The several Crown grants iv connection with this estate contain in all 7,000 acres, comprising parts of high ranges and undulating hills, with a small proportion of arable land, which has all been fenced with totara posts and wire, and a portion of it subdivided into paddocks. About 400 acres are covered with bush and scrub ; about 1,200 acres are under English grass (mostly surface-sown) ; and the rest has more or less fern upon it, with a moderate amount of grass. I regret to say that the very dry weather which has prevailed in Hawke's Bay for the last two years has destroyed a considerable proportion of the English grasses, more particularly on the hills. The quality of the soil is very variable, some of it being very good, whilst other parts are very inferior, the greater portion being second-class land. The value of tho property I consider to bo on an average of about £3 per acre with improvements, exclusive of the school buildings and my own residence, which are worth about £4,000. We have at the present time thirty-six scholars (boarders) —twenty-seven Natives and half-castes and nine English, besides one boy who is to arrive immediately, and two who are absent on sick leave. The English boys are sons of poor people who are uuable to maintain their children. Te Aute, 14th March, 1879. Saml. Williams. G.—Wesleyan Reseete, Wellington. Letter from the Rev. the Chairman of the Trust to Secretary to Royal Commission. Sic,— Wellington, 26th February, 1879. I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your letter dated 29th January, requiring me to forward to you a statement as to the condition, value, and application of any endowments or grants made in favour of Wesleyan educational institutions in Wellington. In compliance with this request, I beg to submit the following particulars respecting the Wellington Wesleyan education property : —■ Iv the year 1852 a grant of land amounting to 73 acres 1 rood 22 perches, adjoining the Wellington Town Belt and Botanic Gardens, was made by Sir George Grey, then Governor of New Zealandfto the Wesleyan Church, to be held in trust for the education of the children of Maoris, destitute Europeans, and inhabitants of the islands of the South Pacific. The difficulty of obtaining a suitable master, lack of necessary funds, disastrous effects of Maori King movement and war on existing Native schools, transfer of governing power in Wesleyan Church from London to these colonies, and the probability of the estate being sold to the Provincial Government, were among the causes which successively operated in retarding the establishment of a school on the reserve as originally intended. In 1865 70 acres of this land were sold to the Provincial Government for the sum of £3,500. Of this amount £1,150 was paid at once; but the balance of £2,350 was not paid until 1872. Part of the proceeds of this sale was invested in,the purchase of land in the AVellington Province ; the remaining portion was lent out at interest. In 1872 the trustees expended £1,200 15s. in the purchase of land and the erection of school premises in Dixon Street, Wellington. A schoolmaster and schoolmistress were engaged; and a day school for boys and girls was opened in January, 1873. The average attendance of scholars during the four years ending December, 1876, was 133. The education afforded was of the kind usually given at the common day schools of the colony. The master employed »«i •♦ present a teacher in the English High School of this city.

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The Wesleyan Conference, having reopened the institution at Three Kings, in the Auckland District, for the education of selected Maori youths, suggested to the Wellington trustees the propriety of expending a portion of their annual income in educating such Maori lads as might be sent from Wellington to enjoy the advantages of the central school at Auckland. In accordance with this recommendation, the trustees dispensed with the services of the master of the school at the end of 1876; and have since then continued the day school for the instruction of younger children only, under the care of a mistress and assistant teacher. The average number of scholars attending in 1877 was 50; last year, 47 ; up to date of present year, 60. The salary paid to the mistress is £120 per annum ;to assistant, £21. The children's fees last year amounted to £62 12s. lid. In 1877 the sum of £100 was paid by tbe trustees to Three Kings Institution ; last year a further sum of £100 was voted to the same establishment. No Maori youths have as yet gone from Wellington to Three Kings. The students there are exclusively from the Auckland District. Appended is an estimate of the present value of the school estate, and a summary of income and expenditure siuce the formation of the trust. I have, &c, Alexander Reid, Rev. W. J. Habens, Chairman of Wesleyan Educational Trust. Secretary to the Royal Commission on Education. Approximate Statement of Account of the Wesleyan Education Fund.—Wellington, 15th February, 1879. Receipts. £ s. d. Disbursements. £ s. d. Proceeds of sale of 70 acres, at £50 (1865) 3,500 0 0 Cost of land and schoolhouse, Dixon Street 1,200 15' 0 Interest on same from date of sale to date of Cost of land, 258 acres at Motoa ... 258 0 0 final payment ... ... ... 788 3 4 Cost of land, 2 acres at Foxton ... ... 28 0 0 Interest from loans ... ... ... 1,423 8 1 Co«t of land at Kaiwarawara ... ... 50 0 0 Rents ... ... ... ... 122 13 9 Expenses of school —salaries, cleaning, reSchool fees ... ... ... ... 730 18 1 pairs, insurance, &c. ... ... 1,909 15 0 Donation to College ... ... ... 50 0 0 Education, Three Kings ... ... 206 0 0 Loans out at 6 per cent. ... ... 2,849 10 0 £6,565 3 3 £6,552 0 0 Assets. £ s. d. Cash in hand and interest due ... ... 176 5 4 School in Dixon Street ... ... ... 1,200 15 0 Land at Motoa, valued at ... ... 500 0 O Income. £ s. d. Land at Foxton, valued at ... ... 200 O 0 Interest from loan ... ... ... 174 O 0 Land at Kaiwarawara, valued at... ... 150 0 0 Rents ... ... ... ... 85 0 0 Land on Terrace, valued at ... ... 800 0 0 Cash on loan ... ... ... ... 2,849 10 0 £259 0 0 £5,876 10 4 H.—Roman Catholic Education Reseeyes, Wellington. Letter from Roman Catholic Bishop of Wellington to Secretary to Boyal Commission. Reveeend Sic,— Wellington, 17th February, 1879. In reply to your letter of 29th January, I have the honour to state that the following are the endowments or grants of public estate made iv favour of Roman Catholic schools in the District of Wellington, together with their value and application : — Town Section No. 559, Wellington, is occupied by the present St. Joseph's Providence buildings, yards, &c. Town Section No. 488, Wellington, is let for the benefit of the aforesaid St. Joseph's Providence, at a rental of £30 per annum. Section No. 38, Tawa Flat, for educational and religious purposes, part in grass and part in bush, let for the benefit of the Catholic schools in Wellington for £30 per annum. I have, &c, Rev. W. J. Habens, t Redwood, Bp. Secretary to Royal Commission on University and Higher Education, Wellington. I. —Motueka Estate, Nelson (Chuech of England). (a.) Letter (with Enclosure) from Bishop of Nelson to Secretary to Boyal Commission. Sic,— Nelson, 25th March, 1879. I beg to forward the last report of the Whakarewa Estate, which was laid before the Synod of this diocese, of which lam trustee. It will, I think, give all the information required, along with the following facts. The facts are briefly these: The income is about £330, and will not be much more, as land at Motueka has diminished in value owing to floods. There is a master, who is ably assisted in his work by his wife. His work is well done. Five girls are boarded. Two boys, and a few, but irregular, day scholars. The attendance is extremely irregular. The cost of tuition (£190), board and clothing, and collection of the rents of forty holdings, amounts altogether to £350 more than the actual income. At present, for this year, the excess of expenditure is met by payment of arrears of some standing, which source however is now exhausted, as, with one exception, which will soon be eliminated, there are no arrears. I have, &c, The Secretary, Royal Commission. Andeew Buen Nelson.

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Report of Whakarewa Estate, laid before the Synod by the Right Rev. the Bishop of Nelson, Trustee. The operations of this trust consist now of a very efficient boarding industrial school for girls of the Maori race, and a day school which is attended by a few boys, but rather irregularly. The boarding department is under the able and kindly care of Mr. and Mrs. Baker, and the results in the case of those children who have given the institution a fair trial have been very satisfactory. The funds of the institution do not allow of a greater number of boarders being taken, unless they are paid for, as it is found impossible to provide for the preseut number at a cost of less than Bs. apiece per week, for which the children are clothed and fed. For some time the Maoris did not appreciate the advantages of the boarding establishment, but now, seeing the effect on the scholars already taken, they are anxious for more to be taken. They must not be judged as Europeans iv this matter: the Maoris are so much attached to their children that it is not for the sake of the cost of their keep and education that they send them, but rather for the benefit of the education itself. The boarders have been examined by me, and a special examination has been fully conducted by the Rev. T. S. Grace in Maori, and from time to time the Rev. S. Poolo has kindly visited the school. I regret to say that one of the most promising girls has died during the year, but the consistency of her life showed her to be a true Christian, and the fact of her funeral being attended by all the Maoris and a good many Europeans, and being conducted in the most orderly manner, testifies to the esteem in which she was held. The same combined interest was felt in the wedding of Mr. aud Mrs. Parkes, the latter of whom was a scholar of the institution for many years. Mr. Baker met with great discouragement in his work at first, but by perseverance the Maoris have learned to appreciate him, and he feels, he says, rewarded for all he has endured, and only regrets that there are not more Maoris. The greatest praise is due to Mrs. Baker, who by her instruction given to the girls conveyed in the Maori lauguage, and by her kind and motherly manner towards the children, has proved a true friend to them. She has nursed them as if they were her own. It seems as if this boarding system would answer, and it is the only system that will: day-schools, where as much is unlearned at night as is learned during the day, are very difficult to keep up, and it is the thoroughness of the training that shows the advantage of the boarding system. Income and Expenditure. For 1877, the estimated income was £334 18s., and, owing to the payment of previous arrears, it was £366 13s. 3^d.; while the expenditure was as follows : Teacher's salary, £190 ; repairs to Te Uma farmhouse, £32 7s. 2-1-d.; rent of building for school, £20; insurances, £7 75.; bailiff and collector's commission, £35 4s. 6d.; boarding and clothing — five boarders at 95., now Bs., £117 : total, £392 18s. B}dIt will be seen from the above that the expenditure is above the actual receipts for the year: this has been met by the payment of arrears of past years. Taking the rental of 1877, the gross amount is £334 18s.: this will be a little augmented as new leases are granted, but not to such an extent as expected, on account of the lamentable destruction aud depreciation of the value of property by last year's floods. The present cost of the institution is £354 7s. 7d., about £20 above its income. Every additional £20 per annum will wholly maintain and educate a Maori child. It is intended to apply to the Native Department for assistance towards an additional number of boarders. The property is in a satisfactory position as regards the payment of rents. The holdings are numerous, but with few exceptions the rents are regularly and without great difficulty collected. Much damage was done to the estate by the disastrous floods of last year, and a few of the rents were reduced. Those leases which have run out have been renewed after due investigation and valuation, based in great measure on the Road Board valuation, the amount of improvement being taken into account in estimating the increase of the rent. It would obviously be unfair to raise the rent simply on account of the improvements made by the tenant. I wish to place on record my satisfaction with the efforts of Mr. and Mrs. Joseph Baker in connection with this institution; my only regret is that there are not funds to extend its operations and enable them to havo more scholars. A boarding-school is, of course, expensive; but its work is so much more thorough and permanent than an ordinary school, and the training the girls receive is of an industrial character, as may be seen from the useful needlework they do. I wish also to record the careful and business-like assistance I receive from Mr. F. Greenwood, who acts as steward and collector, the holdings, upwards of forty in number and very varied, requiring the supervision of some one on the spot who is acquainted with their condition and capacities. 4th November, 1878. Andeew Buen Nelson. (..) Memorandum as to Motueka Leases. — (Sec. R. Com.) One form of lease is for twenty-one years, and contains the following words : " surrender and yield up all erections and buildings then standing upon the said demised land, and whether affixed to the freehold or otherwise, it being the intent aud meaning of these presents that all erections and buildings now or hereafter to be erected or placed upon the said demised land during the said term shall become the property of the said Bishop." It contains also provision for renewal of lease for twenty-one years, at valuation made and estimated ou the value to let, such value to be ascertained by two arbitrators appointed mutually by the parties, or by a third appointed beforehand by the other two. The other form of lease is for twenty-one years, and provides that buildings damaged by fire, &c, are to be replaced by tenant. There is no covenant for renewal.

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X.—REPORTS OF UNIVERSITY EXAMINERS. 1. Examination op May, 1876. Classics.—Examiners : Professor Brown and Professor Sale. Sic, — In the enclosed lists we beg to submit the results of the recent classical examinations (1) for the degree, (2) for the senior scholarships, (3) for the junior scholarships in Latin, and (4) for the junior scholarships in Greek. With regard to the degree examination the papers of the successful candidates are specially commendable for careful preparation. Iv the paper on the subject-matter particularly many of the minutest details seem to have been noticed and remembered. In A's papers this minute knowledge w*as most remarkable, but it was also very noticeable in B's and K's. E's papers showed in many places marks of excessive haste, and in the Latin prose this led to a complete failure on his part: at the same time in the other two subjects he frequently showed more ability than any other candidate. With regard to the senior scholarship examination, the papers of P and R were almost worthless, whilst those of M, S, and N, though not so conspicuous a failure, did not approach the standard necessary to entitle them to a scholarship. With regard to the junior scholarship examination we regret to say that our report must be exceedingly unfavourable both in the Greek and Latin subjects. The candidate who stood highest failed to obtain even a third of the total number of marks. In apportioning the marks we gave the highest value to the passages for translation into English, and it was in this paper that even the best candidates failed most completely. It was not merely that they were unable to cope with the difficulties ; most of them seemed unable to use their reasoning faculties in comprehending the most simple Greek or Latin sentence. Not only so, but the great majority of the candidates seemed unable to put together English words into an intelligible form. There were a few exceptions, and we may especially mention the translation papers of No. 5, who stands second in the Latin examination, and who, although much less advanced than many of the other candidates, has evidently learned to use his common-sense both in discovering the meaning of a Latin sentence, and in expressing that meaning in English.. The papers set were certainly not of undue difficulty, and ought to have been within the reach of a candidate, say, of sixteen years of age who had studied Latin or Greek as a language. This evidently has not been done. It would serve no good purpose to refer to the blunders—many of them almost incredible—committed by the majority of the candidates; but we may remark that in the papers of most, even of those who stood highest, very great ignorance was displayed of the commonest syntactical usages and even of the accidence. It is evident to us that great harm has been done by the scholarship examinations of previous years being confined to prepared work only. It seems as though nearly all the candidates had been taught to depend entirely upon their teachers, and had never been exercised in the use of their reasoning faculties, or in the practice of writing English iv their own words. At the same time we have no doubt that if the examination had been confined, as in former years, to subjects specially prepared by the candidates with the assistance of their teachers many of the candidates would have passed well. As this is the first occasion on which we have had an opportunity of examining the work done in the various classical schools in the colony, we should feel greatly relieved if this expression of opinion were corrected or confirmed by some competent authority. We beg to suggest that the questions and answers in the junior scholarship classical examination be submitted to Mr. Andrew, of Wellington, or to Dr. Badham, of Sydney. Mr. Andrew's opinion would be very valuable, because he would be able to compare the work done in this examination with that done in former years. We need not say that Dr. Badliam's name stands very high indeed, both as a teacher and a scholar, not only in England but also on the Continent. We are, &c, The Chancellor, J. M. Brown. University of New Zealand. G. S. Sale.

DEGREE EXAMINATION (LATIN).

Nos. 1 and 4, Passages from Authors. No. 2, Unseen Passages. No. 3, Latin Prose. A B C E F K Pass ... Pass ... Pail ... Pass ... Pail ... Pass ... Pass Pass Pail Pass Fail Pass Pass. Pass. Pass. Fail. Pass. Pass. A, B, and K therefo: iass in all the iers, E in two i ape: •s only, and C and F in one onl;

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Senioe Scholaeship (Latin).

Mathematics. —Examiners s Professor Shand ; F. Macrae, Esq. Sift,— We have the honour to report that the candidates for junior scholarships, whose papers are marked No. 1, 2, and Nos. 4, 5, <fee, to 24, have obtained in mathematics the number of marks set opposite their respective numerical designations in the appended schedule. We have, &c, John Shand, ] v The Chancellor. Faequhae Maceae, j Jixamiuers*

No. 1, General Paper. No. 2, Translation. No. 3, Latin Prose. Total. M N P R 8 Per cent. 17 11 5 1 24 Per cent. 27 15 5 5 28 Per cent. 27 22 2 5 28 Per cent. 24 16 4 4 27 Ju: •ior Scholars: :i_? (Latin). No. No. 1 (General), Marks 500. No. 2 (Translation), 600. No. 3 (Prose), 400. Total, 1,500. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 li 15 16 17 18 19 21 23 24 142 147 30 50 95 142 15 32 50 37 37 47 105 120 20 40 55 145 22 100 60 72 186 60 60 216 150 30 30 30 30 12 12 66 120 12 108 108 144 24 24 36 84 148 20 60 96 64 2S 88 80 28 8 28 40 64 4 148 68 88 4 48 28 298 481 110 170 407 356 73 150 160 95 57 87 211 304 66 296 231 377 50 172 124 Ju: tor Scholarsh: :p (Greek). No. No. 1 (General), Marks 300. No. 2 (Translation), 400. No. 3 (Prose), 250. Total, 1,000. 1 2 3 (> 15 IS 19 23 21 63 121 3 59 21 45 70 56 25 16 SO 28 GO 21 20 48 82 8 12 05 91 266 31 146 47 78 138 108 33 27 2 18 20 20 J. M. Brown. G-. S. Sale.

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Schedule of Macks.—Junior Scholarship Examination, 1876.—Mathematics. No. 1 ... ... ... 554 No. 14 ... ... ... 810 „ 2 ... 1,122 „ 15 ... ... ... 300 „ 4 750 „ 16 137 „ 5 ... ... ... 1,136 „ 17 ... ... ... 750 „ 6 ... ... ... 412 „ 18 ... ... ... 529 „ 7 ... ... ... 624 „ 19 ... ... ... 714 „ 8 ... ... ... 954 „ 20 ... ... ... 330 „ 9 ... ... ... 800 „ 21 ... ... ... 37 „ 10 ... ... ... 550 „ 22 ... ... ... 433 „ 11 ... ... ... 175 „ 23 ... ... ... 340 „ 12 ... ... ... 870 „ 24 ... ... ... 202 „ 13 607 John Shand ] Examiners , Farquhar Macrae, j • IJA"I""iCiD*

Sir,— I have the honour to present my report on the examination for the B.A. degree and senior scholarships. The candidates A and B have answered very creditably several of the papers set, and all of them to my satisfaction. It was not indeed possible for them, on the paper set iv mechanics, to show that they possessed such a knowledge of this branch of mathematics as is required from candidates who are subject to the new examination ; but, on the evidence furnished by the whole of their papers, and in particular by their papers in algebra and trigonometry, I have no hesitation in deciding that their knowledge of mathematics in general is equal to what the new examination scheme requires. I have to certify, therefore, that A and B have, in my opinion, passed, whether they are under the new or under the old regulations. D and II have sent up no papers in trigonometry, and cannot therefore pass if they are under the new regulations. The other four papers have all been answered by Dto my satisfaction. In dealing with the more difficult problems D shows quite as much mathematical ability as either A or B, but he is somewhat inferior to both iv carefulness, in finish, and in accuracy of expression. The case of His doubtful. He has not quite satisfied me in algebra, and though he has passed in the other branches he has done so without a great deal of merit to spare. I have decided, however, to admit his claim, because, although not strong in mathematics, he has exhibited general intelligence in his answers and methods. I have therefore to report that, in my opiniou, D and H have passed if they are under the old regulations. The remaining candidates, C, F, G, and X, are not, in my opinion, entitled to pass whether they are under the new or under the old regulations. Three of them, C, F, and X, have answered well in the paper on mathematics, and the two last have also passed, though with difficulty, in Euclid. They have failed however (iv many cases signally) in all the other papers. With the doubtful exception of the Euclid paper, G has failed throughout. The annexed table (Table I.) contains the details of examination. In deciding whether candidates should pass if under the new regulations I have excluded the paper on arithmetic, and in deciding whether they should pass if under the old regulations I have excluded the paper on trigonometry. I have marked the other papers as if they were suitable for cither examination. In the senior scholarship examination all the papers were very poorly answered, aud no candidate obtained even one-fourth of the total marks. I am unable, therefore, to recommend that any senior scholarships be awarded on the ground of "great credit" in mathematics. Table 11. contains the per--centages of marks obtained by the candidates. John Shand, Examiner in Mathematics.

TABLE I.

Arithmetic. Algebra. Euclid. Trigonometry. Mechanics, &c. A B C D F (I H K Passed Passed Not passed ... Passed Not passed ... Not passed ... Passed Not passed ... Passed Passed Not passed ... Passed Not passed ... Not passed ... Not passed*... Not passed ... I Passed ... | Passed Passed ... Passed Not passed ... Not passed ... Passed Passed* ... Not passed ... Passed* ... j Passed ... Passed* ... ; Not passed ... Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Not passed. Passed. Passed. * Doubtful. 9-H. 1. (Ap.)

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TABLE II.—SENIOR SCHOLARSHIPS.

Sic, — I have the honour to enclose herewith the results of my examination of the mathematical papers of the candidates for the B.A. degree, as requested in your telegram of the 9th instant. These results are given in the form prescribed in your letter of the 15th June (Paper A). In his telegrams to me of 28th and 31st July, copies of which were posted to you on the 10th instant, Professor Shand states that, in his opinion, candidates for the degree are not required to satisfy both of the examiners, who " should report separately on the B.A. examination, in regard to which there is no necessity for their agreement." It appears to me that this view of the functions of the examiners is not only inconsistent with the letter and spirit of tho instructions contained in your letter of 21st March, but that, if acted upon, it might inflict serious injury on a candidate who, while satisfying one of the examiners, might not reach the standard independently demanded by the other. In the absence of an agreement, considered by my colleague unnecessary, as to the amount of attainment to be required for passing, I have deemed it my duty to adopt the standard prescribed by the Senate in the session of 1875 (Minutes of 1875, p. 21), and to report that those students who have worked one-third of any paper have passed in that subdivision of the subject, and that those who have on the whole worked one-third of all the papers have passed in "Mathematics." In the " List of Subjects prescribed for the B.A. Degree in May, 1876 " (enclosure No. 3, in your Letter of 21st March), the subject of mathematics is limited to the four branches of arithmetic, Euclid, algebra, and mechanics and hydrostatics, in which branches alone therefore candidates should have been examined. In compliance with your instructions, I have the honour to enclose a report on the answers of the undergraduates A, B, C, F, and X to the paper on trigonometry, forwarded by Professor Shand, and a summary of tbe results arrived at by substituting that paper for the arithmetic prescribed by the Senate (Paper B). My examination of the papers of the candidates for senior scholarships is not yet completed. I hope to be able to forward them by next mail. I have, &c, FAEQunAE Macrae.

PAPER A.—Return of Results in B.A. Examinations, May, 1876.—Mathematics.

Geometry. Algebra and Trig. ! Mechanics, &c. Averages. M N P E S Per cent. 12 9 5 11 9 Per cent. 27 30 7 14 18 Per cent. 26 17 5 10 10 Per cent. 22 19 G 12 12

Arithmetic. Algebra. Euclid. Mechanics, &c. Mathematics. A B C D F Cx H K Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Failed Failed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Failed Passed Failed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Failed Pass (?) Passed Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Failed. Passed. Passed. 'afeb B.—Ei iturn of Besults obtained on sit Prof istituting Trigom 3ssor Shand. inietry for Arithmetic, as proposed by Algebra. Euclid. Mechanics, &c. Trigonometry. Mathematics. A B C F K Passed Passed Passed Passed Failed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Failed Passed Passed Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Faequhar Maceae, Esaini

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Sir,— I have the honour to report that the undergraduates who are designated respectively A and B as candidates for the B A. degree, and M and N as competitors for senior scholarships, have passed with great credit the mathematical portiou of the compulsory section of the examination. I have, &c, Farquhar Macrae, Examiner.

English Language and Literature.—Examiners: Mr. H. Jacobs; Mr. J. Curnow. Sir,— We beg to acknowledge the receipt of fifty-one papers containing the answers of seventeen students to the questions on English language and literature set by us for the junior scholarship examination. We have examined these papers according to the instructions contained in your communication of the 19th ultimo, and herewith enclose a list showing the number of marks obtained by each candidate. Further, we desire to specially recommend the papers of No. 2, as exhibiting such a knowledge of tho English language and its literature as would warrant tho Chancellor in using his discretionary power of awarding a scholarship without reference to the aggregate number of marks obtained in not less than two, and not more than four, prescribed subjects. We have, &c, Henry Jacobs, John Curnow, Examiners in English Language and Literature.

Number of Macks obtained by each Candidate in the English Language and Literature Papers of the Junior Scholarship Examination, 1876. —(Highest marks obtainable: 750.) No. 2 ... ... ... 622 No. 12 ... ... ... 243 „ 6 ... ... ... 452 „ 11 ... ... ... 222 „ 19 ... ... ... 429) „ 15 ... ... ... 215 „ 20 429j „ 7 180 „ 23 ... ... ... 392 „ 21 ... ... ... 170 „ 5 ... ... ... 387 „ 9 ... ... ... 156 „ 10 ... ... ... 358 „ 3 ... ... ... 147 „ 8 ... ... ... 207 „ 17 ... ... ... 143 „ 4 ... ... ... 259 Sir,— We beg to acknowledge the receipt of eight papers, being the answers of the undergraduates of the University of New Zealand to the questions set upon the subject designated " English language and literature." Three of these papers were marked with the letter G, three with the letter 11, and two with the letter E. We have examined these papers in accordance with the Chancellor's instructions contained in your communication of the 19th ultimo, and we have the honour to submit the following tabular statement as the result of that examination:—■

Modern Languages.—Examiners : C. Turrell j F. Lohse. Sic, — I beg to enclose the marks for the French papers. They were forwarded in the first iustance by me to Miss Lohse at her particular request. She thoroughly examined them, and in the case of the candidates for junior scholarships she affixed the mark each candidate deserved: after duly examining the same I also affixed the mark I thought each answer deserved. The difference between the sumtotal of my marks and of Miss Lohse's is so slight that it will not affect the position of any candidate. Tou will perceive that No. 2is far ahead of the rest in marks; the next is No. 23. Candidate D's papers for the B.A. degree are very good, especially the paper on literature, in which he shows a thorough knowledge of the history of Montesquieu and his writings. His paper on English into French might certainly have been much better done ; but then this is a particularly difficult subject, consequently one must not be too exacting. I have thought it best to assign marks to D, because by marks it is easier to measure the exact amount of credit he deserves. I have, &c, Chas. Tueeeh.

(a.) Origin, History, and Structure of the English Language. (b.) Periods of , s -a . t, ■ English (c.) Bacon s Reign Literature, &c. of Henry VII. (d.) Essay. Whole Subject, English. n B Passed Passed Passed Passed ... Passed ... I Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed. Passed. ? We have, &c, E. A. Woetht. Jonif Curnow.

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JUNIOR SCHOLARSHIP (FRENCH).

Sir, — In accordance with the instructions given to me by the Registrar I enclose the results of the examinations in French. I would draw your attention particularly to No. 19 and to D. Believe me, &c, F. Lohse. Junior Scholarship. Marks. Marks. No. 2 ... ... ... 373 No. 6 ... ... ... 215 „ 23 ... ... ... 298 „ 5 ... ... ... 212 „ 17 ... ... ... 269 „ 20 ... ... ... 210 „ 11 ... ... ... 264 „ 19 ... ... ... 205 „ 15 ... ... ... 254 „ 21 ... ... ... 169 „ 12 ... ... ... 246 „ 10 ... ... ... 91 „ 3 ... ... ... 240 „ 8 ... ... ... 43 „ 7 ... ... ... 238 „ 9 ... ... ... 13 Examination for the B.A. Degree. D, the undergraduate, wrote an excellent paper. All the grammar questions are answered most satisfactorily, and if they be here and there incomplete we must not forget how much had to be done in three hours' time. There are very few inaccuracies in the answers to grammar questions, and some answers are admirably given. The sketch of the life of Corneille is very well drawn ; every statement and nearly every date are correct. Some questions in literature—viz., 1, 5, 7, 8, aud 9—are not answered at all, perhaps owing to the statements in the Calendar of University of last year, p. 60 ; others—viz., 4 and 6—are but imperfectly answered. The account of Montesquieu (answer 10) is again very satisfactory. The translations contain hardly any mistakes except the last one, from English into French. Some idiomatical niceties and some peculiarities of style betray the foreigner. The candidate deserves much praise. He must have studied diligently and conscientiously. F. Lohse.

History.—Examiner: H. Jacobs. Sir,— I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of 19th June, accompanying a packet containing the answers of candidates for junior scholarships to the examination papers in history, and conveying information as to the mode of arriving at a final decision as to the result of the examination. I have now the honour to report that I have examined the eight papers of answers forwarded to me, marked respectively 1, 3, 7, 8, 10, 11, 17, and 20, and that I have allotted marks as under showing the relative merits, in my judgment, of each paper, the full number of marks obtainable being 500: —

No. Grammar, &c. (Maximum, 200.) Translation. ((Maximum, 200.) French Prose. (Maximum, 100.) Total. 2 8 5 6 7 8 i) 10 11 15 17 19 20 2L 23 133 66 60 88 48 33 11 42 67 89 41 121 96 59 82 190 170 150 130 160 10 50 175 165 180 90 95 110 185 50 373 236 210 218 208 43 11 92 262 274 271 211 211 169 297 20 20 50 20 30 B. .. Degree. I Grammar, &c. ' Literature. (Maximum, 200.) j (Maximum, 200.) Translation. French Prose. (Maximum, 300.) (Maximum, 100.) ! I Total. D I 175 125 287 70 657 Chas. Tuereli,.

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Marks. Marks. No. 1 ... ... ... 335 No. 10 ... ... ... 138 „ 3 ... ... ... 183 „ 11 ... ... ... 104 „ 7 239 „ 17 ... 126 „ 8 ... ... ... 244 „ 20 ... ... ... 403 I have further to state that I have much pleasure in making a special recommendation in favour of No. 20. I feel satisfied that if the Chancellor were to see fit, in the exercise of his discretion, to confer a scholarship on this candidate, it would be exceedingly well deserved, so far as the examination in history is concerned. I have, &c,

Henry Jacobs. Sir, — I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of the answers of two undergraduates to the examination paper in history set by the late Rev. F. C. Simmons and myself. The papers of answers are marked respectively E and Q-. Both of these gentlemen exhibit, in my judgment, a fair amount of knowledge of the subject brought up, aud I. have no hesitation in reporting that they are qualified to pass, so far as history is concerned. I have, &c, Henry Jacobs.

Natueal and Physical Science. —Examiners : Professor Bickerton; Professor Black. Sir, — I have the honour to submit the following report on the B.A. aud junior scholarship examinations in science. I am, &c, A. W. Bickerton, F.C.S. B.A. Degree. Botany (total value, 100).—G: 4, 7, 3, 5, 5, 7, 8, 5, 6, 4, 7, 7 : total, 68. Zoology (total value, 100). —G: Vertebrata, 6, 4, 4, 6 ; invertebrata, 6: total, 26. Geology and Mineralogy (total value, 100). —G : 8, 8, 3, 7\, %\, 3, 4, s|, 7 : total, 54£. Chemistry (total value, 100).—D : 8, 8, 5, s^, 4, B|, 8, 8, 4_-, 8, 8, 8i : total, 84. H • B|, 6, B£, s \, 2, B|, 5, 8, 6i, 3, 3 : total, 641. Summary of Besults. —D passes in chemistry with special commendation. H passes in chemistry. G passes in geology aud mineralogy, passes in botany, fails in zoology =: passes in physical science. I desire to call attention to a footnote to G's papers, from which it appears that he had to do botany and zoology in the time allotted to one subject. Junior Scholarship. Heat (total value, 500).—N0. 13: 20, 40, 30, 10, 20, 42, 20, 30: total, 212. No. 20: 30, 20, 10, 10, 15, 5,10: total, 100. Light and Sound (total value, 500).—N0. 12 : 30, 40, 30, 30, 40, 30, 40, 40, 30 : total, 310. No. 13: 20', 25, 25, 35, 40, 42, 20 : total, 197. No. 22 : 35, 20, 25, 30, 40, 10: total, 160. Electricity (total value, 500).—N0. 12 : 30, 20, 20, 35, 30, 20, 40, 30 : total, 225. No. 20 : 30, 20, 10, 25, 10, 20, 30, 30, 25, 35, 10: total, 245. No. 22 : 20, 5, 30, 20, 25, 20, 30, 35, 30, 30, 40, 25: total, 310. Geology (total value, 500).—N0. 16: 40, 30, 15, 25, 10, 25, 30, 20: total, 195. No. 21: 30, 30, 15 5 15 35 5" to"- al 135 Zoology (total value, 500).—N0. 14 : 45, 50, 50, 50, 45, 50,45,45, 35,30 : total, 445. No. 21: 40, 30, 35, 40', 40, 35 : total, 220. Botany (total value, 500).—N0. 11: 40, 35, 35, 20, 30, 25, 45, 40, 35, 45, 35 : total, 385. No. 16 : 5, 25, 15, 25, 20, 30, 10, 10, 10: 150. Summary of Results. —No. 12 obtains 225 in electricity ; 310 in light and sound : total, 535. No 13 obtains 212 in heat; 197 in light and sound: total, 409. No. 14 obtains 445 in zoology ; 355 in botany : total, 830. No. 16 obtains 195 in geology; 150 in botany : total, 345. No. 20 obtains 245 in electricity ; 100 in heat: total, 345. No. 21 obtains 135 in geology; 220 in zoology: total, 355. No. 22 obtains 310 in electricity ; 160 in light and sound: total, 470. I have much pleasure in recommending No. 14 for a special scholarship in natural science. A. W. Bickerton.

Sir — I have the honour to report on the examination papers in physical science set this year to candidates for the degree of B.A. and for junior scholarships. B.A. Degree. Chemistry (total value, 100).—D : 7*, 8, H, 4|, 4, B|, 8, 8, 5, 8, B*, B_-: total, 83. H: Bi, 6, 5-, Si, Si, 2, 8, 5, 5, 3, 0, 5: total, 62. Geology and Mineralogy (total value, 100).—G : 71, 7, o,lf, 8, B|, 0, 0, 2|, 3, 5, 8 : total, 51. Zoology, Invertebrata (total value, 100).—G: 0, 0, 0, 0, 0, 8, 0, 0, 0, 0 : total, 8. Zoology, Vertebrata (total value, 100).—G :8,5,7,0,0,0,0, 0, 0, 5 : total, 25. Botany (total value, 100).—G : 6^, 8, I, 3, 5, 7, 7\, 5, 4, 3, 7, 7\ : total, 64*. Note. —The candidate G complains of the unfairness of having to answer the two papers in zoology and one paper in botany in the time allotted to zoology. Summary of Results. —D passes in chemistry with special commendation. H passes in chemistry. G passes in geology, mineralogy, and botany, but fails in zoology=passes in physical science. Note at the end of his paper that he was restricted for two papers in zoology and one paper in botany to the time allowed to other candidates for zoology alone. I should consider two hours sufficient time for each paper in zoology, and two hours for the paper in botany.

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Junior Scholarship. Heat (total value, 500).—N0. 13 : 15, 40, 35, 5, 0, 10, 40, 20, 0, 30, 0, 0: total, 195. No. 20: 25, 20, 10, 12, 20, 0, 0, 5, 0, 0, 0, 5 : total, 97. Electricity (total value,soo).—No. 12 : 30, 0, 0, 20, 20, 0, 35, 30, 20, 40, 0, 30 : total, 225. No. 20 : 30, 0,15,10, 30, 10, 15, 30, 30, 20, 30, 15 : total, 235. No. 22 ■ 25, 5, 35, 20, 25, 20, 35, 35, 30, 30, 40, 25: total, 325. Light and Sound (total value, 500).—N0. 13 : 20, 20, 25, 0, 0, 35, 0, 40, 42, 0, 0, 15 : total, 197. No. 22 :0, 20, 20, 25, 0, 30, 0, 40, 40, 0, 0, 10 : total, 185. No. 12 : 30,40, 35, 30, 0, 40, 0, 30, 40, 40, 30, 0 : total, 315. Geology (total value, 500).—N0. 21 :0, 20, 0, 0, 0, 15, 0, 40, 25, 30 : total, 130. No. 16 : 18, 35, 0, 0, 15, l 6; 30, 25, 30, 35 : total, 198. Zoology (total value, 500).—N0. 14 : 45, 50, 50, 45, 45, 45, 50, 40,45, 25 : total, 440. No. 21: 40, 35, 30, 40', 20, 0, 0, 20, 35, 0 : total, 220. Botany (total value, 500).—N0. 14 : 35, 35, 30, 25, 30, 20, 50, 40,45,34 : total, 341. No. 16 : 10, 0, 20, 20, 20, 15, 36,10, 15, 7 : total, 153. Summary of Besults. —No. 12 obtains 225 in electricity; 315 in sound and light: total, 540. No. 13 obtains 195 in heat; 197 in sound and light: total, 392. No. 14 obtains 440 in zoology; 344 in botany : total, 784. No. 16 obtains 198 in geology ; 153 in botany: total, 351. No. 20 obtains 235 in electricity; 97 in heat: total, 332. No. 21 obtains 130 in geology ; 220 in zoology: total, 350. No. 22 obtains 325 in electricity ; 185 in sound and light: total, 510. I have much pleasure in being able to recommend 14 for a special scholarship in natural science, and have to add that, with the exception of 14, 12, and 22, the papers given in obtained, as will be seen, marks which fall considerably short of half value. I have, Ac, James G. Black, M.A., B.Sc, D.Sc. Mean of Besults. B.A. Degree. —Both examiners agree that D passes iv chemistry with special commendation. H passes in chemistry. G passes in geology and mineralogy, passes in botany, fails in zoology= passes in science. A. W. Bickerton. Junior Scholarship .-— Total Mean. Total Mean. No. 12 ... ... ... 537^ No. 20 ... ... ... 338£ „ 13 ... ... ... 400J „ 21 ... ... ... 352£ „ 14 807 „ 22 490 „ 10 348 | Both examiners agree in recommending No. 14 for a special scholarship in natural science. No. 12 is the only other candidate to whom the examiners agree in awarding more than half marks. A. W. Bickerton.

2. Examination op November, 1876. Classics.—Examiners : Professor Sale ; Professor Brown. Sic,— We beg to forward the enclosed results of the examination of candidates iv Latin for the degree and senior scholarship held in November last. In the degree examination E's papers are almost on a level with the best of those in last examination : the same remarkable minuteness of information and accuracy of memory-work characterize them. The papers of C and D show a similar tendency to detail without any of the accuracy: they have occasionally a curious confusion in the use of proper names, as if they had been hurriedly read or heard, aud imperfectly understood. The paper of passages for translation at sight is the only one that has been done satisfactorily by all. With regard to the prepared work, may we be allowed to suggest that, considering the number of the subjects in which the candidates have to pass, and the tests of classical scholarship applied in papers Nos. 2 and 3, the amount might with advantage bo reduced ? The scholarship papers are not so good as those for the degree, though N's show, perhaps, a slight advance on those of the May examination ; they do not, however, approach the standard which seems necessary for a senior scholarship, having been awarded only 31 per cent, of the marks. We remain, &c, G S Sale ' ( Examiners m Classics. Results of Degeee Examination, November, 1876.

No. 1. No. 2. No. 3. No. 4. c D E F Fails Fails Passes Fails ... Passes ... Passes ... Passes ... Passes ... Fails ... Fails ... Passes ... Fails ... Fails. ... Fails. ... Passes. ... Fails. C, D, and F fail in all but Paper No. 2. E passes in all. J. M. Beown. Gh S. Sale.

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RESULTS OF SCHOLARSHIP EXAMINATION.

N obtains 34 per cent, of marks. H obtains 17 per cent, of marks. J. M. Brown. G. S. Sale. Mathematics.—Examiners: Professor Shand ; Professor Cook. Sir, — The following is a brief statement of the results of the examinations in mathematics which have recently been held by the University of New Zealand: —

B.A. EXAMINATION.

Taking however mathematics as a whole, we think that C, E, and F should be allowed to pass whether under the old or new regulations, and that D should not be allowed to pass in either case. In arriving at this opinion, we have reckoned arithmetic, algebra, Euclid, and mechanics as forming the mathematics under the old regulations; algebra, Euclid, trigonometry, and mechanics as forming the mathematics under the new regulations. Senior Scholarship Examination. The candidate whose papers are marked H, being obviously the same individual as the one whose papers are marked F in the pass examination, has, in our opinion, acquitted himself with credit in mathematics, and we therefore recommend that a senior scholarship should be awarded him. Honour Examination. We recommend that the candidate whose papers are marked G should be placed in the first class. John Shand, 7 _• C. H. H. Cook, Examiners*

English.—Examiners :E. A. Worthy; J. Curnow. Sir, — AYe have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of six sets of examination papers, three of which were marked A and three B, containing answers to questions set by us as duly-appointed examiners in English language and literature for the University of New Zealand. These papers we have examined in the manner prescribed by the Chancellor of the University, and as tho result of our examination we beg to submit the following report:—

We have, &c, E. A. Worthy. J. Curnow. Law and Constitutional History.—Examiners: C. J. Foster; H. H. Lusk. Sic, — I have the honour to report that I have examined the papers marked A and B (jurisprudence and constitutional history) for the B.A. examination, November and December, 1876, and I have also forwarded the papers to Mr. Lusk as desired. I have further the honour to report that both the candidates passed in both subjects. Paper A was very satisfactory in both subjects. Paper B was adequate in jurisprudence, but considerably less satisfactory in constitutional history ; but, according to my experience in the University of London, I have no doubt he would be allowed to pass there, though probably in the second class. I have, &c, C. J. Fostee, Law Examiner. Sir,— I have the honour, in accordance with the instructions conveyed to me by the letter of the Secretary of the University, bearing date 20th December, to report upon two sets of papers on the above subjects marked respectively A and B in each subdivision of the subject. In the subdivision Jurisprudence both sets are in my judgment very satisfactory. In assigning a value in percentage marks to the answers, I consider those marked A to be worth 80 per cent, of the highest marks obtainable, and those marked B to be worth 83 per cent, .

No. 1. No. 2. No. 3. Total. N H 21 3 46 17 35 30 34 per cent. 17 per cent.

Arithmetic. Algebra. Euclid. Trigonometry. Mechanics. C D E F Failed Failed Failed Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Failed ... Failed ... Failed ... Passed ... Failed. ... Failed. ... Passed. .. Passed.

Structure and History of English Language. Bacon's Reign of Henry VII. i English Essay. A B Passed Passed ... Passed ... ... Passed ... Passed. Passed.

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In the subdivision Constitutional History the papers are not so good, but I consider them nevertheless satisfactory, when the involved character of the text-book selected is taken into account. I have assigned a percentage value of 70 marks to the answers marked A, and a value of 63 per cent, to those marked B. On the whole, I consider that both candidates have passed with credit in both subdivisions of this subject. I have, &c, Hugh H. Lusk. Chemistry.—Examiners: Professor Black; Professor Bickerton. Sic, — I have the honour to report the marks obtained in the chemistry paper by candidates for the B.A. examination held in November last. The result of the examination in chemistry is that A (775 marks) has passed, and B (450 marks) failed, in that subject. Highest number of marks attainable, 1,200. James G. Black, Professor of Chemistry, Joint Examiner. Sir, — I have the honour to report on the chemistry paper of the B.A. examination of the University of New Zealand held in November, 1876. Of the two papers, A passes ; B fails. The marks are as follow: A, 780 ; B, 440. I have, &c, A. W. Bickeeton.

8. Examination op January, 1878. Classics.—Examiner: A. Leeper. Sir,— Herewith I beg to forward a tabular statement of marks showing the results of the examination iv classics for junior scholarships. The general character of the answering is, in my opinion, somewhat lower proportionately than that of the candidates for the B.A. degree and for senior scholarships. The latter may, I think, be described as being on the whole very creditable ; but it will be observed that only a very small proportion of the twenty-five candidates for junior scholarships have succeeded in obtaining half marks in Latin. Several of the papers —for example, those of Nos. 10, 17, 19, 21, 22, 25, and 29—show such an extremely low level of scholarship as to make it matter for surprise that these candidates should have taken part at all in the competition. The papers of questions are, I believe, as nearly as possible of the same character as would be set at an examination for an open scholarship (with limitation of age) at an Oxford College. Only one candidate (No. 9) has shown a knowledge of Latin at all approaching what would be required for success in such a competition. The papers of Nos. 1 and 31 are, I think, though widely removed in merit from those of No. 9, still sufficiently good to entitle those candidates to some credit in the subject (Latin), if taken in conjunction with other subjects of examination. Only one candidate (No. 23) has sent in Greek papers deserving of half marks. No. 23's papers have some good features and show decided promise ; but the amount of knowledge displayed seems scarcely as high as might have been fairly looked for. I shall take care that all the papers of answers in classics are duly forwarded to you in the course of a few days. I have, &c, A. Leeper.

LATIN.

No. Paper No. 1. '. (Maximum, 500.) Paper No. 2. (Maximum, 500.) Paper No. 3. (Maximum, 500.) Total. (Maximum, 1,500.) 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 12 14 15 16 17 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 271 80 105 280 105 408 50 105 221 105 105 20 180 205 10 7 283 130 15 108 210 230 10 100 330 271 80 105 280 105 408 50 105 221 105 105 20 180 205 10 7 283 130 15 108 210 230 10 100 330 227 105 73 202 125 261 60 60 170 20 62 17 25 25 5 10 161 25 35 83 52 90 17 5 205 265 150 80 80 70 290 35 105 120 70 70 65 50 55 5 10 100 57 57 50 80 75 50 30 280 763 335 258 562 300 959 145 270 511 195 237 102 255 285 20 27 544 212 108 241 342 395 77 135 815

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GREEK.

Sic, — I beg to forward the enclosed sheets containing the results of the classical portion of the examination for the degree of B.A. and for the senior scholarships. As will be observed by reference to sheet No. 2, five candidates, G, M, N, P, and S, have passed " with great credit" in Latin. Of these, only three, G, M, and N, have exhibited a degree of proficiency which I can consider satisfactory. These three candidates are therefore, in my opinion, so far as relates to the classical portion of the examination, deserving of scholarships. In your communication dated 19th February, you state that "the undergraduate G, by some strange inadvertence, omitted, after finishing his answers to the Latin paper No. 2 for senior scholarship, to hand them in to the supervisor, and did not find them till three or four days afterwards," and that consequently the paper was not accepted from the candidate, but that directions were given that I should be informed of the fact. This paper has been forwarded to me, I presume, in error ; but, under the circumstances, I thought it advisable to examine and report on it. Sheet No. 3 enclosed contains the numerical marks that I have awarded to candidates for senior scholarships who had previously passed the degree examination " with great credit." The answers given by M and N to questions in grammar and philology, on the paper marked 2 for senior scholarships, call for special commendation. The Latin prose composition of the candidates, whether for the degree or for senior scholarship, is generally of a poor character. I must express my regret that, through an unfortunate oversight with respect to Paper No. 3 (i.e., the paper on Latin prose composition) of the candidate marked T, I had in my previous report* marked him as not having passed in the whole subject Latin. 1 trust that no great inconvenience has been occasioned in consequence. On discovering the mistake that had been made lat once sent to you the following telegram : " Mistake in the classical examination. T has passed in Latin." In the list accompanying your letter of the 19th ultimo you have included V amongst the candidates in Latin ; but I have received only Greek papers with that signature. On referring to the list furnished to Professor Nanson I found that V was entered amongst the candidates in Greek, but not among those who took up Latin. I have therefore assumed that this candidate was, through inadvertence, placed under a wrong heading. I hope to furnish you with the results of the examination in classics for junior scholarships in a few days. I have, &c, Alex. Leeper. Examination for B.A. Degree. I. Under Old Begulations. A passed in Papers No. 1 and No. 2 Greek, and No. 1 and No. 2 Latin. Result: Passed in Greek and Latin.

II. Under New Regulations.

No. Paper No. 1. (Maximum, 350.) Paper No. 2. (Maximum, 350.) Paper No. 3. (Maximum, 300.) Total. (Maximum, 1,000.) 14 19 20 22 28 28 233 0 0 0 299 62 82 8 ■20 20 !)! 95 92 0 0 0 119 76 387 8 20 20 512 233

Latin. Greek. Result. No. 1. No. 2. No. 3. No. 1. No. 2. No. 3. e F V, H K Bd N P Q Ji s I V Y P P P* N P p* p# P* N P P* N P P P# N P p# P* p* p# P p# P P N P* N N p# p# P* P P P P P 1' P Passed Greek and Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Latin. Failed Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Latin. Passed Greek. Failed Latin. isr P N P P" p" Nu: iber of candidates, 14. P = pass ; N = fail; the * signifies " gi •eat credit." * Merely a preliminary report, embodied in the above letter.—Sec. R. Com. 10—H. 1. (Ap.)

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EXAMINATION FOR SENIOR SCHOLARSHIPS (LATIN).

Mathematics. —Examiner -. Professor Nanson. Sir,— I have the honour to send herewith the marks for the junior scholarship papers in mathematics. The papers of the candidate No. 31 are very good, and accordingly 1 recommend that a scholarship be awarded to this candidate. I have, &c, E. J. Nanson.

E. J. Nanson, Examiner. Sir — I have the honour to report as follows on the mathematical papers of the candidates for the degree of B.A. under the old regulations : — Algebra.— Passed :B,C, D. Failed : None. Arithmetic. —Passed: B, C, D. Failed: None. Geometry.— Passed :B,C, D. Failed : None. Mechanics, <$fc. —Passed : D. Failed :B, C. Mathematics. —Passed : B, C, D. Failed: None. The candidates have all done well in arithmetic and geometry, and B's paper on algebra was highly satisfactory ; but no good papers were sent in on mechanics and hydrostatics. I have, &c, E. J. Nanson. Sir, — I have the honour to report on the mathematical papers for the degree of 8.A., under present regulations, as follows :■ — Geometry.— Passed :E,T,H,T,G,K,M,N, P, Q, R, S. Failed: F. Algebra.— Passed: T, H, T, G, X, M, N, P, Q, R, S. Failed :E, F. Trigonometry.— Passed :T,H,T,G,K,M,N, P, Q, R, S. Failed: E, F. Mechanics and Hydrostatics.— Passed: T, X, M, N, P, E. Failed: E, T, H, F, G, Q, S.

No. 1. No. 2. (Maximum, 100). (Maximum, 100.) No. 3. (Maximum, 100.) Total. (Maximum, 300.) G M N P S 80 7G 76 68 86 40 81 67 32 32 66 81 68 62 48 185 238 206 157 111 Alex. Leepee, Examiner.

No. Algebra. (Maximum, 375.) Trigonometry. (Maximum, 375.) Arithmetic. (Maximum, 375.) Euclid. (Maximum, 375.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 14 15 16 17 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 29 30 31 74 129 164 72 148 142 99 106 246 80 64 47 51 51 97 95 0 91 66 103 168 72 70 76 261 18 0 102 146 256 146 36 136 184 106 4 0 32 112 0 12 0 72 84 88 134 56 64 5 294 160 236 244 136 172 276 122 176 214 130 108 112 170 92 174 184 38 162 188 150 256 202 200 100 282 123 134 187 155 212 203 12S 123 206 140 52 76 112 76 127 169 68 108 112 108 153 174 99 98 228

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Complete Subject, Mathematics. —Passed: V, G, X, M, N, P, R, S. Failed: E, T, H, F, Q. Passed with great credit: X, M, N, P, R. Passed with very great credit: K. On the whole the candidates answered fairly well in algebra, geometry, and trigonometry. In mechanics and hydrostatics very fair papers were done by X, P, R ; but the other candidates showed great weakness. In algebra very good papers were done by X, N. I have, &c, E. J. Nanson. Sir — I have the honour to report as follows on the senior scholarship papers in mathematics : — The candidate X has exhibited a degree of proficiency satisfactory to me. The candidates F, M, N, P, Q, R, S, have not shown satisfactory proficiency. I have, &c, E. J. Nanson.

Modern Languages.—Examiner: Professor Strong. Sir,— I have the honour of enclosing the marks for the New Zealand University French papers. It will hence appear that candidate No. 31 has done by far the best. Indeed, the papers showed signs of signal industry and care. I purposely refrain from adding any comments on the present occasion ; but, should you require any further information as to candidates' papers, I shall of course be happy to supply any in my power. I do not know whether it may be considered out of my province to suggest that we find it useful to give to candidates a list of recommended books, which they are not obliged to get up, but which seem the best to peruse, should time permit. I am, &c., Herbert A. Strong.

Herbeet A. Steong, Examiner. Sir, — I have the honour to report that the candidate marked T did not pass in Paper No. 1 or Paper No. 2. Candidate E passed in both papers. Candidate V passed in both papers. I have, &c, Herbert A. Strong, Examiner.

English and History.-—Examiner: J. S. Elkington. Sir,— I now do myself the honour to forward the return showing the results of examination in English and in history for junior scholarships in the University of New Zealand. I have, &c, J. S. Elkington.

No. No. 1. No. 2. (Maximum, 170.) (Maximum, 160.) No. 3. (Maximum, 170.) Total. (Maximum, 500.) 20 L6 17 19 15 7 9 10 21 26 26 80 29 81 <; 5 4 1 27 33 27 67 92 45 1C4 127 63 10 10 88 63 15 156 98 74 78 135 57 5 0 15 20 10 65 35 15 0 0 35 0 0 104 28 53 30 49 15 50 25 21 22 21 48 65 48 22 9 40 27 16 168 48 59 58 113 44 88 52 103 137 76 217 227 126 32 19 163 90 31 408 174 186 166 297 116

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ENGLISH.

History. (Maximum marks, 500.) No. 1 ... ... 262 No. 21 ... ... 204 „ 4 ... ... 168 „ 22 ... ... 33 „ 5 ... ... 15 „ 23 ... ... 221 „ 8 ... ... 296 „ 26 ... ... 229 „ 9 ... ... 336 „ 31 ... ... 316 J. S. Elkington, Examiner.

Sir,— I now do myself the honour to offer the following report on the examination of the undergraduates' papers lately received by me.

I. Under the Old Regulations. ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE.

In the whole subject, English language and literature, A, C, and D, have passed. In political economy under the old regulations no papers were received. History. B passed. A passed. C passed.

II. Under the Present Regulations. ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE.

In the whole subject, English language and literature, E, W, Z, have passed; T has not passed. The work of W in English language and literature entitles him to great credit.

No. Paper No. 1. (Maximum, 250.) Paper No. 2. (Maximum, 350.) Paper No. 3. (Maximum, 150.) Total. (Maximum, 750.) I 4 5 6 7 9 10 15 16 17 19 20 24 25 26 27 29 30 31 184 167 173 126 154 145 116 91 68 116 88 122 104 81 160 135 118 48 177 222 180 105 92 149 221 85 0 4 43 6 84 28 14 118 30 20 3 98 140 90 75 70 135 100 85 50 40 95 60 10 40 65 110 45 75 35 145 546 437 353 288 438 466 286 141 112 254 154 216 172 160 388 210 213 86 420 J. S. Elkington, Examiner.

Paper No. 1. Paper No. 2. A B C Passed Passed Passed ... Passed. ... Passed. ... Passed.

No. 1. No. 2. No. 3. E T W z Passed Not passed Passed Passed ... Passed ... Not passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Not passed. ... Not passed. ... Passed. ... Passed.

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J. S. Elkington. Jubispeudence and Constitutional History.—Examiner: H. B. Higgins. Sir — I have the honour, as examiner in jurisprudence and constitutional history, to report that the candidate whose papers are marked B is, in my opinion, entitled to pass in those subjects, whether taken together or separately. As, in a previous communication, comments or suggestions were, I think, invited, I venture to submit to the University authorities whether it would not be desirable to substitute (say) Markby's Elements of Law, or The Student's Austin, or even portions of Austin's larger work on jurisprudence, for Professor Amos's Science of Jurisprudence ; and of substituting TaswellLangmead's or Stubbs's Constitutional History, or Hearn's Government of England, for Sir Edward Creasy's little book, excellent as it was in its day. I have, &c, H. B. Higgins. Chemistry.—Examiner : J. D. Kirkland, M.B. Besults of Junior Scholarship Examination. Number of marks allotted to paper, 100; number of marks entitling to a first class, 75. No. 27 ... ... ... 65 I No. 21 ... ... ... 48 „ 24 ... ... ... 535 „ 29 ... ... ... 38 „ 30 ... ... ... 50 „ 25 ... ... ... 16 Examination for Degree of B.A. Paper marked D passed. J. D. Kirkland, M.8., Examiner. Physical Science. —Examiner: F. J. Pirani. Junior Scholarship. Heat (maximum marks, 500).—N0. 7, 150 ; No. 11, 364. Electricity (maximum marks, 500). —No. 11, 390. Tbe answers of candidate 11 show very great excellence, and I recommend him as deserving a scholarship. N.B. —I have taken 500 as maximum marks for each division of science. If the maximum be 1,000 the marks of the candidate will of course have to be doubled. Examination for the B.A. Degree. Candidate V passed in sound and light, and in electricity and magnetism, and therefore in tho complete subject. ■ —■ Mental Science. —Examiner : F. J. Pirani. Candidates W and Z each passed in three divisions —viz., history of philosophy, psychology and ethics, logic —and passed with great credit in the complete subject. F. J. PIEANI, Examiner. Natural Science. —Examiner : Professor McCoy. Sic, — I have the honour to report the numbers of marks obtained by the undermentioned candidates for junior scholarships.

Each of the subjects, botany, zoology, and geology, has been taken as full marks=soo. The candidates generally seem to have been well instructed, and to have understood the subjects in the order above given, that is to say, botany first, zoology nearly equal, and both creditable ; geology very much below the other subjects. I have, &c, Fredk. McCoy. Sic, —■ I have the honour to report that the candidate marked T has passed the B.A. examination in botany. I have, &c., Fredk. McCoy.

" History. Political Economy. w z Passed Passed ... Passed. ... Passed.

No. Botany. otany. Zoology. Geology. 1 4 6 14 L6 15 17 21 350 300 50 200 50 100 200 350 300 200 50 100 150 25 20

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4. Examination op Decembee, 1878. Classics.—Examiner: A. Leeper. Sic,— Trinity College, Melbourne, 26th February, 1879. Herewith I beg to forward the details of the classical examination for the B.A. degree, senior scholarship, and third-year scholarship, the main results of which you have already learned by my telegram of the 24th instant. At the same time I enclose a table of the marks for junior scholarships. The Latin composition sent in by the candidates for the latter was, almost without exception, of a very inferior quality. None of their other papers call for any special remark, except "Latin (1)," of candidate No. 29, which was of high merit. The papers of the candidates of third-year scholarships were good, and both these gentlemen are, in my opinion, deserving of scholarships. Most of the work sent in by J, the only candidate for honours, was remarkably well done. I believe this gentleman would have found little difficulty in taking a " first class " at Oxford or Cambridge. In the accompanying table of the results of the degree examination, I have put P. for " Passed," N.p. for "Not passed," P.c. for " Passed with great credit " (exhibiting satisfactory proficiency), and P.n.c. for " Passed, but not with credit." I think it right to forward, for transmission to the Chancellor, a letter received some time since from the candidate for honours. I must express my very great regret that, in consequence of absence from home, I have not been able to let you have the full examination returns before the 28th instant, as requested. I trust that my telegram may have prevented any inconvenience to the University authorities resulting therefrom. Finding that the s.s. "Arawata," by which, as notified in my message per cable, I proposed to forward these returns, does not leave till Friday next, I am sending this via Sydney, in the hope that it may reach its destination sooner. I have, &c, The Registrar, New Zealand University. A. Leepeb.

JUNIOR SCHOLARSHIP, NEN ZEALAND UNIVERSITY (LATIN).

EXAMINATION FOR THE B.A. DEGREE AND SENIOR SCHOLARSHIP.

No. Translation. (Maximum, 500.) Grammar, &c. (Maximum, 500.) Composition. Total. (Maximum, 500.) , (Maximum, 1,500.) 1 3 5 7 10 11 14* 15 20 21 23* 24 25 26 27 29* 30 31 32 33 37 38 30 250 270 220 105 90 285 0 250 35 240 75 75 255 75 355 255 50 65 240 70 220 25 20 65 150 30 30 220 10 120 155 230 55 55 20 30 100 190 52 35 60 20 100 25 50 340 240 30 30 250 0 285 75 320 100 50 225 120 300 135 20 25 25 50 50 80 320 675 610 165 150 755 10 655 205 790 230 180 500 225 755 580 122 125 325 140 370

Latin No. 1. Latin No. 2. Latin No. 3. Passed or Not Passed. D L M N P Q w X Y* Z KS P. P.c. N.p. P.n.c. P.n.c. P. P. & P. N.p. P. P.c. ?i P.c. p. p. it p. N.p. p. P.n.c. P. P.n.c. P.n.c. N.p. it P. P.n.c. N.p. P.n.c. P.n.c. P. P. it p. N.p.

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Honours. —J: First class in Latin and Greek. A. Leeper, Examiner. English and History.—Examiner: J. S. Elkington. Sir, — The University of Melbourne, 27th February, 1879. I now do myself the honour to forward the complete returns of examinations as under: — Junior Scholarship Examination : History ; English. Degree Examination : English (present regulations) ; English (old regulations) ; history; political economy. I have, &c. The Chancellor, University of New Zealand. J. S. Elkington.

JUNIOR SCHOLARSHIP EXAMINATION (ENGLISH).

JUNIOR SCHOLARSHIP EXAMINATION (HISTORY). (Value of paper, 500 marks.)

Greek No. 1. Greek No. 2. Greek No. 3. Passed or Not Passed. C D 0 P. P. P. P. P. P. P. N.p. P. P. P. P. Third-tear Scni ILARSHIP. Greek No. 1. (Maximum, 400.) Greek No. 2. (Maximum, 400.) Greek No. 3. Total. (Maximum, 200.) (Maxmium, 1,000.) C o 246 242 328 244 174 122 748 608

No. Paper No. 1. Paper No. 2. Paper No. 3. Total. 1 2 3 4 5 7 10 11 15 22 28 25 26 27 29 80 81 3:; 70 71 64 35 144 165 73 59 118 136 154 144 46 68 63 92 119 92 87 37 42 80 117 79 15 50 195 95 123 111 35 52 90 100 84 108 110 120 90 70 170 125 95 150 145 100 180 75 90 85 80 130 125 267 228 196 185 431 369 88 204 463 376 377 435 156 210 238 272 333 325

So. 1 So. 23 432 » 2 » 3 » 4 » 5 „ 7 ,, 14 „ 15 „ 17 >, 21 260 256 184 388 386 170 132 116 255 ,. 24 „ 26 » 27 ,, 29 „ 30 „ 31 „ 32 „ 37 244 72 188 164 328 228 258 128 J. S. Elkington, Examiner.

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EXAMINATION FOR THE DEGREE OF B.A. Under Present Regulations. THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE.

Passed the Examination : C, D, E, F, O, S, Z. Senior Scholarship Examination. —F is the only candidate who has passed the examination with great credit. The special work of this candidate shows satisfactory proficiency. Under Old Begulations. A : Paper No. 1 passed; Paper No. 2 passed. A has, therefore, passed the examination in this subject. J. S. Elkington, 27th February, 1879. Examiner. Examination for the Degree op B.A. Under Present Begulations. History. —Candidate E, not passed. Political Economy. — Candidate E, passed, but not with credit. Senior scholarship work scarcely satisfactory. Under Old Begulations. General History. —Candidate A, passed. J. S. Elkington, 17th February, 1879. Examiner. Modern Languages.—Examiner: H. A. Strong. Dear Sir, — University of Melbourne, 15th February, 1879. I have the honour herewith to transmit for your information the results of my branch of your examination. I trust I have set them forth clearly. For the senior scholarship, I regret to say that the candidate did not pass with " great credit," and did not exhibit a degree of proficiency satisfactory to the examiner. I have, &c, The Chancellor of the New Zealand University. H. A. Strong,

JUNIOR SCHOLARSHIP (FRENCH).

No. Paper No. 1. Paper No. 2. Paper No. 3. Result. c D E F 0 Q E 8 X Z Passed Passed Passed Passed Not passed Not passed Not passed Passed Not passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Not passed Not passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Not passed Passed Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Not passed. Not passed. Passed. Not passed. Passed.

No. Paper No. 1. (Maximum, 170.) Paper No. 2. (Maximum, 162.) Paper No. 3. (Maximum, 168.) Total. 1 2 3 4 5 7 IL 15 22 25 26 27 29 30 31 33 39 97 78 84 95 88 61 46 54 24 24 33 84 64 64. 69 81 158 159 134 132 116 103 108 91 32 83 49 60 53 62 129 8 76 42 60 72 32 9 28 20 G 2 0 0 15 0 55 128 331 279 278 299 236 173 182 165 62 109 72 144 132 126 253

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JUNIOR SCHOLARSHIP (GERMAN).

MATHEMATICS.—Examiner: E.J. Nanson. JUNIOR SCHOLARSHIP EXAMINATION.

Candidates Nos. 22 and 25 did not send iv any answers in trigonometry. Candidate No. 10 did not send in any papers in algebra, geometry, or trigonometry. Examination for the Degree of B.A. Algebra.— Passed: L, M, N, W, X, V. Failed: D, KS, P, Q, Z. Trigonometry.— Passed: L, M, N, P, W, X, T. Failed: D, KS, Q, Z. Geometry.— Passed :D,L,M,N,P,W, X, T, Z. Failed: KS, Q. Mechanics and Hydrostatics.— Passed: L, M, N, P, W, X, T, Z. Failed :D, KS, Q. Complete Subject.— Passed :L,M,N,P,W, X, T. Failed: D, KS, Q, Z. 11— H. 1. (Ap.)

Paper No. 1. (Maximum, 166.) Paper No. 2. Paper No. 3. (Maximum, 166.) (Maximum, 166.) Total. 23 70 54 13 167 B.A. Examination (German). Paper No. 1. Paper No. 2. Paper No. 3. I Result. E U Not passed Passed ... Not passed ... Passed ... Not passed ... Passed ... Not passed. ... Passed. B.A. Examination (Feench). Paper No. 1. Paper No. 2. Paper No. 3. ....... Result. B !) F Q x z Passed Passed Not passed Not passed Not passed Not passed ... Passed ... Passed ... Not passed ... Not passed ... Not passed ... Passed Passed Passed Not passed Passed Not passed Passed Passed. Passed. Not passed. Not passed. Not passed. Passed. I certify to the n isults as above. H. A. Strong, Examiner.

No. Trigonometry. (Maximum, 375.) Algebra. (Maximum, 375.) Geometry. (Maximum, 375.) Arithmetic. (Maximum, 375.) Total. (Maximum, 1,500.) 2 4 5 7 10 11 14 15 16 17 20 21 22 24 25 26 27 29 30 31 32 33 37 149 149 238 203 69 75 201 158 151 144 227 242 78 108 258 294 39 165 126 141 0 51 198 213 168 231 72 96 228 228 162 210 195 237 102 447 476 927 897 39 331 494 342 18 96 616 602 394 524 148 305 868 728 731 607 637 527 351 52 172 54 0 0 118 138 103 11 54 73 0 0 144 75 97 75 5 124 230 184 204 146 126 99 52 103 142 74 18 45 156 176 129 115 71 50 188 162 176 99 138 134 143 35 222 154 189 152 178 57 54

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Of the above candidates, N and T, who are candidates for senior scholarships, have passed with very great credit. W also passed with great credit. The candidates N and V have, in answering the questions specially addressed to candidates for senior scholarships, exhibited a degree of proficiency satisfactory to me. Under Old Begulations. Candidate A passed in arithmetic, algebra, geometry, mechanics and hydrostatics, and in the complete subject mathematics. E. J. Nanson, Examiner.

Natural Science. —Examiner : Frederick McCoy. Junior Scholarship. Botany (Paper, 500).—N0. 11, 400 marks; No. 23, 350 (Nos. 11 and 23 nearly equal); No. 2, 150 ; No. 4, 5. Zoology (Paper, 500).—N0. 11, 300 marks. B.A. Degree. Zoology (Paper, invertebrata, 500; and vertebrata, 500). —Invertebrata: I passed, 300 marks; X passed, 250; S passed, 400; T passed, 300 ; Q passed, 275. Botany. —X passed. Honours. Geology. —No. 1, Physical Geology (paper, 500) :G, 300 marks. No. 2, Geology of New Zealand (paper, 500) :G, 250. No. 3, Mineralogy (paper, 500) :G, 150. G failed. Frederick McCoy. Sir, — University of Melbourne, 10th February, 1879. I have the honour to forward returns of the examination in natural science. The candidate G writes on his geology and mineralogy (No. 3 Mineralogy) paper the following remarks : " I beg to protest against the paper on geology on the following grounds : lst, on account of the short time (two hours) given for the completion of the answers, which makes it impossible for the work to be done with any hope of correctness ; 2nd, the papers are not in accordance with the Syllabus of the New Zealand University for 1878." To the first I would reply that a man with full knowledge might write for a week on one question. The examiner makes due allowance for the short time; but in this candidate's case the failure is not from deficiency of written matter, but from the multitude of errors written down. To the second I would reply that the papers agree, I think, with the requirements of the portions of the Calendar to which I was referred. I have read the treatise by Gon the geology of Hawke's Bay District, which is creditable. I have not been instructed to make any special returns concerning it, but can do so if required by telegraph. If the values taken for the papers (500) be inconvenient they can be reduced to any standard without altering the ratio I have given of the value of the answers to the value assumed for the paper. The answering generally iv botany and invertebrate zoology is highly creditable ; that in zoology of vertebrata, geology, and mineralogy, less so. I have, &c, Henry John Tancred, Esq., Feedeeick McCoy. Chancellor of the New Zealand University. Mental and Physical Science.—Examiner: F. J. Pirani. Sir, — University of Melbourne, 11th February, 1879. I have the honour to forward herewith my report on the examination in mental and physical science. I have, &c, H. J. Tancred, Esq., F. J. Pirani. Chancellor, University of New Zealand.

JUNIOR SCHOLARSHIP EXAMINATION (PHYSICAL SCIENCE).

EXAMINATION FOR B.A. DEGREE (PHYSICAL SCIENCE).

No. Heat. (Marks, 500.) Sound and Light. (Marks, 500.) Electricity. (Marks, 500.) io 28 32 88 87 :3S 202 303 128 119 179 149 112 100 200

Heat. Sound. Light. Electricity. Whole Subject. B C F K Not passed Passed Not passed Passed Passed Not passed Passed Not passed. Passed. Not passed. Not passed. Passed Not passed Not passed Not passed

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MENTAL SCIENCE.

Senior Scholarship Examination. The papers sent in by F in heat and electricity do not exhibit satisfactory proficiency. The papers sent in by E in mental science do not exhibit satisfactory proficiency.

THIRD-YEAR SCHOLARSHIP EXAMINATION.

JURISPRUDENCE AND CONSTITUTIONAL HISTORY. —Examiner: H. B. Higgins. EXAMINATION FOR B.A. DEGREE.

Chemistry.—Examiner: J. D. Kirkland, M.B. Junior Scholarship. Number of marks allotted to paper, 500. Candidates : No. 16, 225 marks ; No. 2, 195 ; No. 32, 190; No. 21,120; No. 4, 95. The examiner would be glad to see Roscoe's Elementary Chemistry substituted for Fowne's Chemistry in the case of junior scholarship candidates. B.A. Degree. I passed, B passed, X passed, T not passed, R not passed, U not passed. J. D. Kirkland, M.B. XL—OPINION AS TO OPERATION OF " THE RELIGIOUS, CHARITABLE, AND EDUCATIONAL TRUSTS ACT, 1876," IN CONNECTION WITH THE WESLEYAN MODEL TRUST DEED. 1. The Secretary to the Royal Commission to the Hon. the Minister of Education. Royal Commission on University and Higher Education, Sir — Wellington, 10th March, 1879. I have the honour, by direction of the Royal Commission, to ask you to be so good as to obtain for the Commission the opinion of the Law Officers of the Crown upon a question arising out of the following case : — In the years 1850,1852, and 1854 certain lands in the neighbourhood of Auckland were granted by the Crown to the superintendent of the Wesleyan Mission and his successors " in trust for the use and towards the support and maintenance of" a school at the Three Kings, " so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to youth educated therein or maintained thereat." The school is defined to be " for the education of children of our subjects of both races, and of children of other poor and destitute persons, being inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean." I enclose a copy of one of the grants, taken from page 30 of the minutes of evidence attached to a " Report of the Commission of Inquiry into the Condition and Nature of Trust Estates for Religious, Charitable, and Educational Purposes," and forming part of Appendix to Journals of House of Representatives, A.-5,1869. On pages 30, 31, and 32 four such grants are exhibited, the terms of the trust being the same in all of them,

Psychology and Ethics. Logic. History of Philosophy. Whole Subject. B 1 S T U Passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Not passed Passed Passed Passed Passed Not passed Passed Not passed Passed Not passed Not passed. Passed. Passed. Passed. Passed.

Heat (Marks, 500). Sound (Marks, 500). Light (Marks, 500). 194 305 195 F. J. Pirani, Examiner.

Jurisprudence. Constitutional History. Joint Subject. a H 0 Not passed Not passed Passed ... Not passed ... Not passed ... Passed ... Not passed. ... Not passed. ... Passed. Hy. B. Higgins, Examiner. 8th February, 18 9.

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It has been given in evidence before the Royal Commission that these lands have been conveyed to trustees under " An Act to render more simple and effectual the Titles by which Property is held for Religious, Charitable, and Educational Purposes in New Zealand [6th August, 1856]," and subject to the provisions of the model deed of the people called Methodists, which model deed is referred to in section 4of the said Act. I enclose a copy of the " model deed." The question is, are the trustees under " The Religious, Charitable, and Educational Trusts Act, 1856," and under the " model deed," bound by the original trusts expressed in the Crown grants ? I have, Ac, Wm. Jas. Habens, The Hon. the Minister of Education, Wellington. Secretary to the Commission.

2. Copy op Crown Grant No. 36 of Reg. No. 4. Victoria, by the grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Queen, Defender of the Faith, and so forth: To all to whom these presents shall come, greeting: Whereas a school hath been established by the Government at the Three Kings, in the suburbs of Auckland, under the superintendence of the superintendent of the Wesleyan Mission in New Zealand, for education of children of our subjects of both races, and of children of other poor and destitute persons being inhabitants of islands in the Pacific Ocean : And whereas it would promote the objects of the said institution to set apart certain pieces or parcels of land in the neighbourhood thereof, for the use and towards the maintenance and support of the same: Now know ye that we, for us, our heirs and successors, do hereby grant unto the said superintendent of the said mission all that allotment or parcel of land in our Province of New Ulster, containing by admeasurement twenty (20) acres, more or less, situated in the Parish of Waitemata, in the County of Eden, and being No. one hundred and twentyfour (124) of section ten (10), bounded on the north by No. one hundred and twenty-five (125), two thousand (2,000) links; on the east by a road one thousand (1,000) links ; on the south by No. one hundred and twenty-three (123), two thousand (2,000) links; and on the west by No. forty-six (46) of the Parish of Titirangi, one thousand (1,000) links. All that allotment or parcel of land containing two hundred and eighty (280) acres, more or less, situated in the Parish of Titirangi, in the County of Eden, and being No. eighty-seven (87), bounded on the north-west by No. fifty-one (51), three thousand three hundred and fifty (3,350) links and one thousand one hundred and fifty (1,150) links, and by a road eight hundred (800) links; on the north-east by the road from Mount Albert to Epsom, three thousand two hundred (3,200) links, one thousand three hundred and thirty-five (1,335) links, one thousand and forty (1,040) links, six hundred and seventy-five (675) links, and by branch road to Nos. forty-eight (48) and forty-nine (49) ; on the east by the continuation of the said branch road ; on the south by a road from Mount Albert to lots Nos. forty-eight (48) and forty-nine (49), as shown on the accompanying plan on the margin. All that allotment containing two hundred and twenty-seven (227) acres, more or less, situated in the Parish of Waitemata, in the County of Eden, and being No. fourteen (14) of section thirteen (13), bounded on the north by the Ridge Road, from the Whau to Epsom; on tbe east by Nos. eight (8) of section thirteen (13) ;on the south by the Manukau Harbour; on the west by a stream and Wesley Bay, and by a line bearing north (magnetic) to the above-named road, as shown on the plan in the margin of this deed : together with the rents, issues, and proceeds thereof, to hold uuto the said superintendent and his successors, iv trust nevertheless, and for the use and towards the support and maintenance of the said school, so long as religious education, industrial training, and instruction in the English language shall be given to youth educated therein or maintained thereat. In testimony whereof we have caused this our grant to be sealed with the seal of our said Province of New Ulster. Witness our trusty and well-beloved Sir George Grey, X.C.8., Governor and Commander-in-Chief of our said province and its dependencies, at Government House, Auckland, in New Ulster aforesaid, this fifteenth day of October, in the fourteenth year of our reign, and in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and fifty. (1.5.) G. Grey. Entered on record this twenty-second November, 1850. Andrew Sinclaie, Colonial Secretary and Registrar.

3. Opinion op Assistant Law* Officer. This is a difficult and somewhat obscure point, but I have arrived at a conclusion after careful consideration. The preamble shows the intention of the Act to be the making titles " more simple and effectual." The lst section, after making provisions to secure the vesting of the legal estate in a succession of persons, has a very full and careful saving of the trusts of the original grants or conveyances. The 2nd section provides for evidence of the appointment of such persons. The 3rd section settles doubts as to the estate conveyed by the grants or conveyances, and it also carefully saves the original trusts. The recitals of the 4th section (the one in question) contain words, in my opinion, sufficiently carrying on the general policy of the preceding parts of the Act into this section : the object is to provide for a succession of trustees, and " for defining the manner in which the trusts upon which they are respectively held shall be fiMUed." The word "they" here is seen by the recital to mean the lands in the said grants, &c, referred to in the preceding sections of the Act, and the sites of chapels, ministers' dwellings, and schools, &c, Qf the Methodists. The enacting part of the section authorizes the conveyance of the trust premises, lands, &c, to trustees elected, &o, to be vested " upon the trusts and for the ends, &c, &c, mentioned, expressed, and declared in a model deed, &c." In my opinion these last words cannot be made consistent with the preceding portion of the same section and the rest of the Act in any other way than by reading them as if they contained

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the following words —viz., "so far as the same are not inconsistent with the trusts of the original deeds, &c." To hold any other view is, I think, to hold that the section provides notforthe "fulfilling" of the original trusts as declared by the recital, but may defeat the trusts. This would be a contradiction in the Act which, if we can, we are bound to avoid. This view is, I think, materially strengthened by the language of the amending Acts of 1865 and 1872, which contain careful savings of the original trusts. It will be curious if it be held that a uniform intention and policy running through all the rest of this Act and the amending Acts shall suddenly be altered when it comes to the Wesleyan Methodists. With respect to the particular grant, copy of which is herewith, I do not think the trustees can sell the land, which is to be held " so long as religious education, &c, and instruction in the English language shall be given "in the school. But lam of opinion that it is a sufficient fulfilling of the original trusts if they are carried out as nearly as the existing circumstances will admit. 6th June, 1879. J- H. Shaw. XII.—MEMORANDUM BT E. DOBSON, C.E., ON EXAMINATIONS FOR SURVETORS AND CIVIL ENGINEERS. I think the difficulties are — 1. To find competent men to conduct the examinations; 2. So to constitute the Boards as to prevent the Government from putting pressure on the examiners to pass incompetent men. AYe had great annoyance from this in Melbourne, w-here the Municipal Surveyor's Board was composed of Government officials. I think it of great importance that the services rendered should be honorary, with the exception of the work done by the secretary, for which an addition should be made to his regular salary. In Victoria there are two Examining Boards, one for surveyors and one for engineers. No surveyor can do any contract work for the Government without having passed ; nor can an engineer be employed by any Road Board, Municipality, or Shire Council, without having at least a second-class certificate. Certificates of service were, however, issued to those who had been engaged for eight years as municipal surveyors at the date of the passing of the last Act. Certificates of qualification are also given in the nature of an ad eundem degree to men of established reputation coming in from other countries. Looking at the desirability of gradually introducing into New Zealand similar restrictions on professional practice, I think it would be much better that the power of granting certificates should be held by a Board appointed directly by the Government than by the Council of any teaching body, and I have also a strong feeling that any University examination would insist too much on theoretical knowledge, and too little on that practical experience without which theoretical knowledge is simply useless, and which must be obtained outside the class-room in the actual practice of a profession. I speak advisedly, having before my eyes the practical results of attendance in the engineering curriculum at the Melbourne University. I think, however, it would be desirable, in connection with the University, to establish Chairs of engineering at Wellington, Christchurch, and Dunedin: each professor to give three courses in each year, of twelve lectures in each course —viz., two weekly for six weeks, on subjects selected for the certificate examinations in surveying and engineering. These lectures might be given at night, so as to facilitate the attendance of those who are professionally engaged during the day-time. Certificates of attendance, and first and second prizes for the best examinations on the subjects of the lectures, should be given at the end of each year. A fair remuneration for the lectureships would be £180 each. Messrs. Lockwood and Co. published in 1876 a book called " Pioneer Engineering," which was written by me as a guide to the Melbourne examinations. I have not a spare copy, but Mr. McKerrow can lend you one. I think he would like to introduce it as a text-book for the cadets in the Survey Department. I send you a memorandum respecting the Melbourne engineering examinations and one of our examination papers, and shall be very glad to send you any further information if you will kindly write. I have, &o, J. Hector, Esq., M.D., F.E.S. E. Dobson.

Sketch of a System of Examination foe geanting Cebtificates of Competency to Sueyeyoes and Civil Engineers. Appointment of Examining Boards. Two Boards of Examiners to be appointed, one for granting certificates to surveyors, the other for granting certificates to civil engineers. Both Boards to be in connection with the Department of Land and Works. There will be two classes of certificates issued by each examining Board, marked A and B, the highest class of certificate being marked A, and the second or lower-class certificate being marked B. The Board to sit at Wellington twice in each year for holding examinations —viz., the Survey Board on the first Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday in January and July ; the Engineering Board on the third Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday in January and July. Constitution of Boards. The Survey Board to consist of—Assistant Surveyor-General (chairman ex officio) ; one mathematician (to be a University professor) ; one draftsman (to be a principal draftsman in the Land Department) ; one surveyor (to be selected from the authorized surveyors iv private practice). Secretary to be one of the clerks in the Land Department. Services to be honorary. Engineering Board to consist of —Chief Engineer (chairman ex officio) ; one mathematician (to be a University professor) ; one engiueer (to be an officer in the Railway Department) ; one engi-

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neering surveyor (to be selected from the authorized surveyors in private practice). Secretary to be one of the clerks in the Land Department. Services to be honorary. Note. —It is assumed that the secretary and two members will be common to both Boards. Qualifications for Candidates. Survey Examination. —The candidate must be not less than twenty-three years of age, with certificate of character from not less than two persons from personal knowledge, and must not have been convicted of felony, embezzlement, or breach of trust. He must have passed the Civil Service examination in England or in an English colony. He must have served articles for three years, or have been employed as paid assistant for three years, w*ith a civil engineer, architect, or land surveyor. Any person proposing to present himself for the surveyors' examination must make application in writing to the Chief Surveyor of the district in which he resides, forwarding his certificates and testimonials, with duplicates on foolscap paper aud a fee of two guineas, fourteen clear days before the date of the examination. If his application is received his certificates will be returned to him with a ticket, which will be his passport to the examination-room, the duplicate papers being forwarded to Wellington to be filed by the Secretary to the Board. If unsuccessful, his money and the whole of his papers will be returned to him within one week of the date of his application. Holders of a B certificate, who wish to obtain the A certificate, will simply forward the copy of the B certificate and a fee of £1 Is. Engineering Examination. —Candidates must be not less than twenty-five years of age, and hold a B certificate from the Survey Board. They must have served articles for three years, or have been employed as paid assistants for three years, under some civil engineer or architect of repute. A conviction for felony will disqualify the candidate, no matter how high may be his certificates of good character. Any engineer proposing to present himself for the engineers' examination must make application in writing to the District Engineer of the district in which he resides, forwarding his certificates and testimonials, with copies on foolscap paper and a fee of three guineas, fourteen clear days before the date of the examination. If his application is received his certificates will be returned to him, with a ticket, which will be his passport to the examination-room, the duplicate papers being forwarded to Wellington to be filed by the Secretary to the Board. If unsuccessful, his money and the whole of his papers will be returned to him within one week of the date of his application. Holders of a B certicate, who wish to obtain the A certificate, will simply forward the copy of the B certificate and a fee of two guineas. Subjects for Examination. Survey Examination. — B Certificate. Instruments, —Nature of surveying instruments —viz., compass, sextant, theodolite. Use of instruments : correction of adjustments when deranged. Measurements. —Angles by compass, sextant, or theodolite. Distances, accessible and inaccessible. Trigonometry. —Geometry. Plane trigonometry. Logarithms. Reduction of traverses. Minor triangulation. Survey Work. —Setting out Crown lands. Survey of natural features. Survey of fenced lands. Survey of streets and buildings. Drafting. —Lines and angles. Natural features of country. Buildings and enclosures. Writing and lettering. Colouring. Hill shading. A Certificate. — In addition to Subjects for B Certificate. Geodesy. —Spherical trigonometry. Determination of meridian. Measurement of a meridional arc. Major triangulation, theory and practice. Principles of geodetic survey: leading systems and their defects. Marine and River Surveying. —Coast-lines. Soundings. Tide-lines. Altitudes. —With theodolite, spirit-level, and barometer. Levelling. —Sections of country. Contour levels. Laying-off Boads. —Laying out roads in sidling ground. Calculating and setting out gradients. Setting out curves. Mapping. —Principles of projection. Advantages and disadvantages of different systems. Engineering Examination. — B Certificate. Materials. —Wood. Brick. Stones. Limes and cements. Iron. Constructive Details. —Carpentry : Floors, roofs, trussed beams. Piling. Masonry in brick and stone. Foundations, walls, piers, arches. Ironwork .- Pillars, beams, roofs, bridge trusses. Concrete : Foundations, piers, floors. Principles of Design. —Bridges : Wood, iron, and masonry. Culverts: Log, sawn timber, masonry, concrete. Retaining and breast walls. Gates and Fencing. —Gates: Principles and constructive details. Fencing: In wood, iron, and stone. Boads, Formation and Maintenance. —Drainage: Formation, pitching, metalling. Principles and practice of maintenance. Street Paving. —Roadw*ay. Footpaths. Side-channels. Town Drainage. —Construction of sewers in brick, stone, and concrete. House drains, and their connection with street sewers. Cuttings and Embankments. —Principles and practice of levelling. Calculation of gradients. Setting out work. Measurement of earthwork. Office Work. —Working drawings. Specifications and contracts. Bills of quantities. Accounts and certificates. Note. —Candidates must possess the B survey certificate before coming up for examination.

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A Certificate. — In addition to Subjects for B Certificate. Laying-out Boads. —In fen districts. In rolling country. Over mountain passes. Bailways. —Gradients, curves, gauge, station arrangements. Station buildings—viz., passenger, goods, and engine sheds, and workshops. Tunnels. —Construction of tunnels, under various conditions. Foundations. —Cofferdams, and other means of laying foundations under water. Marine Engineering. —Harbour works. Breakwaters. Jetties. Lock-gates. Graving docks. Lighthouses. Drainage. —Surface drainage in towns and country districts. Disposal of town sewage. Canal Navigation.- —Construction of canals, and improvement of navigable rivers. Water Supply. —From rivers, wells, rainfall, gravitation, and pumping schemes. Storage and service reservoirs. Town reticulation. Extinction of fires. Natural and artificial systems of filtration. XIII—PAPERS RELATING TO APPLICATION FOR CHARTER FOR UNIVERSITT OF OTAGO. 1. Petition of University op Otago, 1879. To Her Most Gracious Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, Queen of Great Britain and Ireland and Empress of India, Defender of the Faith, &c, &c. Most Gracious Sovereign,—May it please your Majesty: The humble petition of the Chancellor, Vice-Chancellor, and Council of the University of Otago, in the Colony of New Zealand, humbly showeth, — That the University of Otago, in the Colony of New Zealand, was, in the year 1869, founded and incorporated, for the promotion of sound learning, by an Ordinance of the Provincial Council of the Province of Otago. under the name of " the University of Otago," with power to confer, after examination, the several degrees of Bachelor of Arts, Master of Arts, Bachelor of Medicine, Doctor of Medicine, Bachelor of Laws, Doctor of Laws, Bachelor of Music, and Doctor of Music. That the said University is unconnected with any religious denomination. That the said University has been very liberally endowed both by the Provincial Council and the Colonial Legislature. On an endowment of ten acres of land in the City of Dunedin has been erected, at a cost of £34,000, a commodious and effective pile of buildings, affording excellent accommodation for the Faculties of Arts, Medicine, and Law, and for Schools of Mines and Engineering. There are also residences for professors within the University grounds. Provision has been made for the efficient maintenance of the University by the endowment of 210,000 acres of land in the provincial district, at present yielding a considerable revenue, which will be largely increased as leases are renewed. The very valuable Public Museum of the Province of Otago, contained in a separate building in Dunedin, erected at a cost of £13,000, has been placed under the permanent control and management of the University. An endowment of 11,000 acres of land has been made for the management of this Museum. There is also a yearly appropriation to the University funds of £600 from trusts administered under the powers granted by an Act of the General Assembly of New Zealand entitled " The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 1866," for the maintenance of a Chair of Mental and Moral Philosophy, and further endowments for the maintenance of other Chairs are anticipated from the same source. A grant of £500 in aid of the School of Mines is made annually by the Colonial Parliament. That the said University was opened for the instruction of students in 1871, and is now in the eighth'year of its operation. There are now seven professors and two lecturers —viz., George Samuel Sale, M.A. (formerly Fellow and Classical Lecturer, Trinity College, Cambridge), Professor of Classical and English Literature; John Shand, M.A. (formerly head mathematical master in the Edinburgh Academy), Professor of Mathematics and Natural Philosophy; James Gow Black, M.A., D.Sc. Edinburgh University, Professor of Chemistry; Duncan Macgregor, M.A., M.B. (formerly Ferguson Scholar), Professor of Mental and Moral Philosophy and Political Economy; Frederick Wollaston Hutton, F.G.S., C.M.L.S., Cor. of Nat. History, Museum of Paris, Professor of Natural Science ; John Halliday Scott, M.D. Edinburgh, M.E.C.S.E. (late Demonstrator of Anatomy, Edinburgh University), Professor of Anatomy and Physiology ; George Henry Frederick Ulrich, Professor of Mineralogy and Metallurgy; Lecturer on Surgery, William Brown, M.8., CM., Edin.; Lecturer on Law, Allan Holmes, B.A. Oxon., of the Middle Temple, barrister-at-law ; Lecturer on the German Language, Arthur Biichler; Lecturer on French, vacant. That the number of students iv attendance averages 68. That, in addition to the means of education provided out of the funds of the said University, two scholarships have been founded. That the standard of acquirements which must be attained by graduates in the University of Otago is fully equal to that prescribed by the Universities of the United Kingdom. That your Majesty's representative in the colony is the Visitor of the University, and that no alteration in the standard required for degrees can be made without his sanction. That, several years after the constitution of the University of Otago, the University of New Zealand was established, and subsequently the University of Otago became affiliated thereto ; but your petitioners are now satisfied that the object for which the University of Otago was founded—namely, the promotion of sound learning—will be best obtained by reverting to its original status as an independent University. That it is desirable to have the degrees of the University of Otago generally recognized throughout your Majesty's dominions.

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That, although the Ordinance of the Provincial Council of the Province of Otago hereinbefore referred to which incorporates the University and confers the power of granting degrees has become law, yet the degrees so to be granted by the said University under the authority of the said Ordinance are not clearly entitled to recognition beyond the limits of the Province of Otago, and your petitioners are in consequence most desirous to obtain from your Majesty a grant of letters patent requiring all your Majesty's subjects to recognize the degrees given under the authority of the said Ordinance in the same manner as if the said degrees had been granted by any University of the United Kingdom. Tour Majesty's petitioners therefore most humbly pray that your Majesty will be pleased to take the premises into your most gracious consideration, and grant unto the University of Otago letters patent effective for the objects in the humble petition set forth. And your petitioners will ever pray, &c, <&c. H. S. Chapman, E. B. Cargill. Chancellor. John Bathgate. D. M. Stuart, James Fulton. Vice-Chancellor. J. Hyde Harris. William H. Reynolds. W. H. Cutten.

2. Petition of Canteebuey College, 1879. To Her Most Gracious Majesty Victoria, by the Grace of God, Queen of Great Britain and Ireland and Empress of India, Defender of the Faith, &c, &c. Most Gracious Sovereign,—May it please your Majesty : The petition of the Governors of the Canterbury College, New Zealand, humbly showeth, — That the Canterbury College was established and incorporated in the year one thousand eight hundred and seventy-three, by an Ordinance of the Provincial Council of Canterbury, to enable " all classes and denominations of Her Majesty's subjects resident in the Province of Canterbury, and elsewhere in the Colony of New Zealand, to pursue a regular and liberal course of education." That to place the College on a permanent and secure footing, and to provide the means of maintaining the institution in a state of thorough efficiency (in addition to a grant of money for defraying the cost of the necessary buildings), liberal endowments of land were made by the Provincial Council. Commodious buildings have been erected, capable of accommodating two hundred students. The laboratories have been provided with every requisite for the instruction of students in physics and chemistry. The Museum, erected at a cost exceeding £21,000, contains a most valuable collection of specimens of natural history, and type collections of minerals and fossils. That the present teaching staff consists of four professors and four lecturers, viz.,— Professors. —J. M. Brown, M.A., late Snell exhibitioner, Ball. Coll., Oxon: Classics and English literature. C. H. H. Cook, M.A., late Fellow of St. John's College, Cambridge: Mathematics and natural philosophy. A. W. Bickerton, F.C.S., Associate and late Senior Queen's Scholar, Royal School of Mines : Chemistry and physics. Julius yon Haast, Ph. D., F.R.S.: Geology and palaeontology. Lecturers. —Llewellyn Powell, M.D., F.L.S.: Biology. C. J. Foster, LL.D., and late member of Senate of the University of London: Jurisprudence. Rev. C. Turrell, M.A.: French. J. yon Tunzelmann: German. Director of Museum: Professor yon Haast. Director of School of Agriculture: W. E. Ivey, F.C.S. Arrangements have been made to obtain, by the assistance of Professor Jowett, of Oxford University, Professor Seeley, of Cambridge University, Professor Blackie, of Edinburgh University, and T. W. Maude, Esq., M.A., a Professor of Classics from Oxford or Cambridge; your Majesty's petitioners having deemed it expedient to establish separate Chairs for classics and English literature. That the average number of students who attended lectures last year was fifty-eight. That a School of Agriculture is now being established under the control of the College. The farm is of the extent of 403 acres, and the buildings now in course of erection, at a cost of £10,967 13s. 4d., will contain laboratory, lecture theatre, &c, and accommodation for twenty students (boarders). There will also be the necessary farm buildings, it being the intention of your Majesty's petitioners to make this school complete in every respect. The building will be ready for the reception of students during the current year. Mr. W. E. Ivey, member of the Royal Agricultural College at Cirencester and a Fellow of the Chemical Society of London, has been appointed Director. That the endowments granted by the Provincial Council, and confirmed by the General Assembly, consist of 316,750 acres of agricultural and pastoral land and 11 acres of town sections. In addition to these endowments, 5,000 acres of agricultural land have been vested in the governors of the College for the maintenance of a medical school, which your Majesty's petitioners hope will shortly be established as a department of the College. That, in a separata building, but uuder the control of the governors of the College, there is a free public library containing upwards of 10,000 volumes. That endowments of 14,320 acres of agricultural land have been granted for the maintenance of a Boys' High School and a Girls' High School in Christchurch, both schools being under the control of the governors of the College : the latter school has been established more than a year. The contract for the buildings for the boys' school has been signed. That the foregoing statement shows that the Canterbury College has the means of providing the youth of all classes of the community with a thoroughly liberal education. That, in the year 1868, the General Assembly of New Zealand passed an Act for the endowment of a colonial University in New Zealand, it being then the intention of the Legislature to establish such University as soon as possible. That the University of Otago, one of the Colleges affiliated to the University of New Zealand, was founded by an Ordinance of that province in the year 1869, and that the University of New Zealand

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was established by Act of the General Assembly of the colony in the year 1870. In the year 1872 the University of New Zealand and the University of Otago each applied for a Royal charter ; but your Majesty's Secretary of State for the Colonies, by despatch No. 8, 31st January, 1873, intimated to the Governor of the colony that your Majesty's Government would not advise on the subject until the Legislature of the colony had decided upon which University the charter should be conferred. In the year 1874 a deputation from this College conferred with the authorities of the Otago University. The result of this conference was an agreement that the University of Otago and the Canterbury College should become affiliated to the New Zealand University. That in the year 1874 the General Assembly of New Zealand passed an Act intituled " The New Zealand University Act, 1874," which repealed the Act of 1870, and more clearly defined the objects and powers of the University. By clause 4 of the Act of 1874 it is "expressly declared and enacted that the University hereby established is so established not for the purpose of teaching, but for the purpose of encouraging, in the manner hereinafter provided, the pursuit of a liberal education, and ascertaining, by means of examination, the persons who have acquired proficiency in literature, science, or art by the pursuit of a liberal course of education, and of rewarding them by academical degrees and certificates of proficiency as evidence of their respective attainments, and marks of honour proportioned thereto." That on the 29th day of July, in the year 1876, your Majesty, being moved thereto (on the advice of His Excellency the Governor of New Zealand), granted to the University of New Zealand letters patent, declaring " that the degrees of Bachelor and Master in Arts, and Bachelor and Doctor in Law, Medicine, and Music, hereafter to be granted or conferred by the said University of New Zealand, shall be recognized as academic distinctions and rewards of merit, and be entitled to rank, precedence, and consideration, in our United Kingdom, and in our colonies and possessions throughout the world, as fully as if the said degrees had been granted by any University of our said United Kingdom." That the Canterbury College has been affiliated to the University of New Zealand since the year 1874. The students matriculated to the University attending lectures at this College conform to the rules and regulations of the New Zealand University, their desire being to obtain degrees which shall be recognized in all parts of your Majesty's dominions. That, it having lately come to the knowledge of the governors of this College that the University of Otago has forwarded a petition to your Majesty, praying that an Imperial charter may be granted to that body, your Majesty's petitioners wish to state their opinion that it would be highly inexpedient in the interests of higher education in this colony to establish two or more Universities in New Zealand, empowered by your Majesty to grant degrees which would be recognized in all parts of your Majesty's dominions. Tour Majesty's petitioners are so impressed with the injury which would ensue to the cause of higher education, and to the value of degrees granted in this colony, from the existence of two or more institutions empowered to grant degrees, that your petitioners have refrained from approaching your Majesty with any petition for a charter, although the institution under your petitioner's direction is, as your petitioners believe, as much entitled to a charter as the institution known as the University of Otago. There are at present only about 420,000 inhabitants, exclusive of aborigines and Chinese, in .he colony, and to grant an Imperial charter to any college which might apply for one would necessarily have the effect of weakening the influence of the University of I. ew Zealand, and would be conferring power to grant degrees on a local body almost unknown outside of this colony. Even if the population of the colony were five times as great as at present, one University, having power to examine and confer degrees, would, in the opinion of your Majesty's petitioners, be sufficient. That your Majesty's petitioners would most respectfully point out the following paragraph in the Royal charter granted to the University of New Zealand : " And we further will and ordain that no variation of the constitution of the said University which may at any time or from time to time be made by an Act of the General Assembly of New Zealand shall, unless the standard of knowledge now established or a like standard, in the opinion of our Governor for the time being, duly proclaimed iv our said colony, be not preserved as a necessary condition for obtaining the aforesaid degrees therein, in any manner annul, abrogate, circumscribe, or diminish the privileges conferred on the said University by these our letters patent, nor the ranks, rights, privileges, and considerations conferred by such degrees;" and would humbly express their belief that to grant a charter to any other educational body in New Zealand would seriously circumscribe and diminish the privileges conferred on the University of New Zealand. Tour Majesty's petitioners most earnestly pray that your Majesty will be graciously pleased to take tbe foregoing premises into consideration, and refuse to grant a charter to any educational body in New Zealand other than the New Zealand University. And your Majesty's petitioners will ever pray. (Seal of Canterbury College.) Affixed by order of the Board of Governors of the Canterbury College this twenty-fourth day of April, 1879. " W. Montgomery, F. G. Stedman, Registrar. Chairman.

8. Resolutions op Senate op University of New Zealand. That, in the opinion of this University, it is undesirable, under the existing circumstances of the colony, that the power to confer University degrees should be possessed by more than one institution in the colony. 2. That this resolution bo forwarded to the Governor, with the request that it may be brought under the attention of the proper authority in Great Britain, in conjunction with any petition which may be preferred by any local body for power to grant degrees independently of this University. 12— H. 1. (Ap.)

XIV.—REVISED SCHEME OF WORK FOR WELLINGTON COLLEGE. Sir,— The College, Wellington, 30th June, 1879. I have the honour to enclose herewith the programme of work of the AVellington College for the current term, and also copies of the time-tables of the different masters and of each form. As there has been a great change in the staff and a complete rearrangement of the work since the inspection of the College by the Commission, I thought that the Commissioners might wish to have the latest statistics before tbem. I would ask their attention to the fact that three masters have to do the whole work, except in modern languages and natural science, for five classes, ranging from the merest elements up to junior scholarship standard, in addition to working evening classes and classes for girls ; and that this involves about thirty hours a week of actual class-work for each master —a somewhat heavy allowance even without the work involved in general supervision and management on the part of the headmaster, while the classes have to be worked together oftener than is consistent with thorough efficiency. I may add that the numbers this term are —Boys, 88 ; girls, 6 ; evening students, 14: total, 108. Of these, four are entered for different sections of the B.A. examination, and about ten will enter for the entrance examination, of whom four or five will be candidates for scholarships. I have, &c, Kenneth Wilson, M.A., The Secretary to Higher Education Commission. Principal.

Programme of Work.—Second Term, 1879. Form V. Latin—Horace, Od., Book 111. Cicero, De Amicitia. Unseen translation, prose, &c. Greek —Homer, Iliad I. Euripides, Medea. Unseen translation, prose, &c. English—Shakespeare's Merchant of Venice. Grammar and analysis, derivation, laws of phonetic decay, composition, precis writing. Outlines of History: William I. to Henry VIII. Geography, general and physical, flora and fauna, &c. French —Le Misanthrope. Composition and syntactical work. German —Lessing's Minna yon Barnhelm. Aue's Grammar, pp. 88-142. Mathematics —Algebra: Proof of rules for H.C.D. and L.C.M.; theory of quadratic equations; problems involving quadratics; arithmetical, geometrical, and harmonical progression. Euclid: Book VI. and original problems. Trigonometry: Logarithms, fundamental formula), transformations, trigonometrical equations, properties of triangles, solution of triangles, heights and distances, &c. Natural Science —Zoology. Form IV. Latin—Virgil, _Eneid, Book IV. Principia Latina, Part V. Grammar. Greek—As Form V. English—As Form V. French —Voltaire, Charles XII. Syntax of pronouns and verbs. German —Zimmermann, Der Oberhof. Aue's Grammar, Ex. 1-20. Mathematics —-Arithmetic generally. Algebra: Simultaneous simple equations, quadratics, and problems. Euclid: Book 11., revision of Book 1., and original problems. Trigonometry: Definitions, trig, identities, variations in magnitude and quality of trig, functions, logarithms, fundamental formulas, transformations. Natural Science —Zoology. Form 111. Latin —Caesar, De Bell. Gall., IV. Arnold's Latin Prose. Grammar, &c. Greek —Accidence. English—As in Forms V. and IV. French—Merlet's Grammar, pp. 55-69, 125-130. Mathematics —Arithmetic : Decimals, interest, discount, stocks. Algebra: H.C.D., L.C.M., fractions, simple equations. Euclid : Book I. Natural Science —Zoology. N.B.—The English work in these three forms differs only in minuteness of detail. Form 11. Latin —Delectus, Latin Primer. English—Reading, writing, dictation, parsing. History to reign of Edward 111. (Smith's smaller). Grammar and analysis of complex sentences. Geography. French—Merlet's Grammar, pp. 43-69, 125-128. Mathematics —Div. I. : Arithmetic : Interest and discount. Algebra: Elementary rules, factors, H.C.D. and L.C.M. Euclid: Book 1., props. 1-32.— Div. II.: Arithmetic: Proportion, interest. Algebra: Definitions and elementary rules. Euclid : Definitions and early propositions. Form I. Latin—Delectus; Latin Primer. English —Reading, writing, dictation, parsing. History: Chief events from Roman Conquest to present time (Taylor's First Principles). Grammar: Explanation of different parts of speech, elementary analysis. French —Merlet's Grammar, pp. 1-43. Arithmetic —Div. I.: Decimals, practice, proportion.—Div. II.: Compound rules, vulgar fractions. Evening Classes. Latin —Senior: Cicero, De Amicitia. Latin prose composition. Junior: Caesar, De Bell. Gall., I. Arnold's Latin Prose, &c. Mathematics —University Class : The mechanical powers, dynamics, and hydrostatics (as far as is required for the B.A. examination). —Civil Service Class: Algebra, to quadratics. Euclid, Book I. Trigonometry, to solution of triangles,

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English—Civil Service Class: Grammar —Parsing and analysis, derivation, composition, precis writing. Geography—Outlines of continents, British Isles and colonies, in detail. History—General outlines, 1066-1815. Girls' Classes. Latin—Elementary. English—As in Form 111. French. Mathematics—Fractions, decimals, and elementary algebra. Natural Science—Elementary botany.

TIME-TABLE. —SECOND TERM, 1879. Headmaster's Work.

* Also Latin paper for Form V. Work of J. P. E. Francis.

Mathematical Master.

Hour. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. a.m. 9.30 to 10.30 L0.30 to 11.30 Form V. —Latin ... III.—Latin V.—Latin III. —Latin V.—Latin III.—Latin V. —Latin III. —Latin III. —Latin. III.—Latin to 11* V. —Correct. Composition and papers. L1.30 to 12.30 P.M. 12.30 to 1 2 to 3 Girls : Latin Junior Greek II. & I. —English Grammar Junior Greek II.—History Girls: Latin Junior Greek II. & I. —English Grammar Junior Greek II. —History 3 to 4 I.—History I. —History II.—History and reading. I. —History and reading. Cor. Exercises, &c. 4 to 5 7.30 to 9.30 Senior and Junior Latin Senior Greek Senior Greek Senior and Junior Latin

Hour. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. A.M. 9.30 to 11.30 I. & II.—Latin ... Parsing Writing IV. —Latin Author Girls : English ... I. & II.—Latin ... Dictation Writing Latin Prose I. & IT.—Latin ... Parsing Writing Latin Author Girls : Geography I. & II.—Latin ... Dictation Writing Latin Prose I. & II.—Latin. Repetition. Writing.* .1.30 to 12.30 L2.30 to 1 12 to 1 — Girls: English and History. III., IV., & V.— Composition. Paraphrase. P.M. 2 to 3 IV. & V.— ShakeIII. —History IV. & V. —ShakeIII.—History ... speare Derivations Parsing and Analysis Phys. Geog. IV. & V.—History Analysis Phys. Geog. speare Derivations Parsing and Analysis Phvs. Geog. IV. & V.—History Analysis Phys. Geog. 3 to 4 Geography III.—Shakespeare Derivations Geography Civil Service Class: English History Geography Geography III.—Shakespeare Derivations Geography Precis. III.—English Dictation, 7.30 to 9.30 Saturday.—12 to 1 —Gi iris : English and Gei >aper for Form IV. igraphy. # Also Latin ]

Hour. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. a.m. 9.30 to 10.30 L0.30 to 11.30 Form III.—Algebra IV. & V.—Algebra III.—Arithmetic... IV. —Arithmetic ... V.—Euclid Arithmetic* III.—Euclid IV—Euclid V. —Algebra II.—Geography ... III.—Algebra IV. & V. —Trigonometry Arithmetic* V.—Trigonometry. III. —Exam. Paper. 11.30 to 12.30 P.M. 2 to 3 3 to 4 II. —Geography ... I. & II.—Geography. I.—Arithmetic ... II. —Algebra I. —Arithmetic ... II.—Arithmetic ... I.—Arithmetic ... IL—Euclid I. —Arithmetic ... II.—Algebra I.—Arithmetic. II.—Arithmetic. IV. & V—Exam. Paper. 7.30 to 8.30 8.30 to 9.30 University Class : Mechanics Civil Service Class : Trigonometry and Algebra University Class: Mechanics Civil Service Class : Trigonometry and Euclid • Ladies' Class from 11 a.m. to 1 p.m.

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Modern Language Master.

SATURDAY.—11 to 12.—Girls : French. Natural Science.

TIME-TABLE. —SECOND TERM, 1879. FORM V.

FORM IV.

Hour. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. A.M. .1 to 11.30 .1.30 to 12.30 P.M. 2 to 3 3 to 4 4 to 5 Girls : French ... lst Form : French 2nd Form : French 5th Form: French 4th Form: French 4th Form : French 3rd Form : French 4th & 5th Forms : German Girls: French ... lst Form : French 2nd Form: French 5th Form: French 5th Form : French 3rd Form: French 4th & 5th Forms : German

Hour. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. a.m. 10.30 to 11.30 P.M. 2 to 3 3 to 4 4 to 5 Natural Science ... Natural Science ... Natural Science ... Natural Science ... Natural Science ... Natural Science ... Natural Science ... Natural Science ... Natural Science ... Natural Science. Zoology On three evenings during tho week. Botany : —.

Hour. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. 9.30 to 10.30 L0.30 to 11.30 11.30 to 12.30 2 to 3 Horace Algebra Prose Shakespeare Grammar Derivation Modern Geography French Horace Arithmetic Prose Horace Geometry Prose Shakespeare Grammar Derivation Modern Geography French Horace Trigonometry Natural Science ... Prose Mathematics. Latin Paper. Latin Paper. Paraphrase. Composition. Precis. 3 to 4 4 to 5 lome Work ... Natural Science ... Horace History Analysis or Parsing Physical Geography German Latin Notes Nat. Science Notes History Parsing Analysis Physical Geography German Horace Shakespeare Grammar Modern Geography Geometry French Natural Science Latin Notes Nat. Science Notes Natural Science ... Horace Trigonometry Natural Science History Analyus or Parsing Physical Geography German Latin Notes Nat. Science Notes History Parsing Analysis Physical Geography German Horace Composition Precis Latin Notes Nat. Science Notes Mathematical Paper Drill. Horace. Shakespeare. Grammar. Modern Geography. French. Natural Science. Latin Notes. Nat. Science Notes.

Hour. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. A.M. 9.30 to 10.30 L0.30 to 11.30 .1.30 to 12.30 P.M. 2 to 3 Algebra Virgil ... Arithmetic Latin Prose Geometry Virgil ... Trigonometry Latin Prose Latin Paper. Latin Paper. Latin Paper. Shakespearo Grammar Derivation General Geography Natural Science ... French ... Shakespeare Grammar Derivation General Geography Natural Scienco ... Natural Seieuce ... Paraphrase. Composition. Precis. 3 to 4 4 to 5 Home Work ... French ... Latin Prose French History Parsing Analysis German Physical Geography History Parsing Analysis Physical Geography Greek or German... Geometry Virgil Shakespeare Grammar Derivation General Geography Natural Science Latin Prose Natural Science History Parsing Analysis Physical Geography German History Parsing Analysis Physical Geography Greek or German... Virgil Trigonometry Paraphrase Composition Precis Mathematical Paper. Drill. Virgil. Shakespeare. Grammar. Derivation. General Geography. Natural Science. French.

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FORM III.

FORM II.

FORM I.

XV—PAPERS RELATING TO PRESBTTERIAN CHURCH TRUST, OTAGO.

A. Extracts prom Acts and Ordinances. 1. " The Presbyterian Church of Otago Lands Act, 1866." " Whereas by certain terms of purchase of land within the Settlement of Otago, forming a contract between the New Zealand Company aud Association of lay members of the Free Church of Scotland constituted for promoting the said settlement commonly called " The Otago Association," it was

Houe. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thubsday. Fbiday. A.M. 9.30 to 10.30 Algebra Arithmetic Euclid Algebra Csesar. Latin Prosa. Caesar. Latin Prose. Mathematical Paper. L0.30 to 11.30 Caesar Caesar Caesar Latin Prose Preparation Caesar L1.30 to 12.30 P.M. 2 to 3 Preparation Latin Prose Latin Prose 3 to 4 Natural Science ... General Geograpby Derivation Shakespeare History Parsing Physical Geography Analysis French Natural Science ... General Geograpby Derivation Shakespeare History Parsing Physical Geography Analysis French Composition. Precis. Paraphrase. English and Dictation. 4 to 5 lome Work ... Cadets' Drill. Caesar. Natural Science. General Geography, Derivation. Shakespeare. Ccesar Latin Prose History Parsing Physical Geography Analysis French Euclid Caesar Latin Prose Natural Science General Geography Derivation Shakespeare Caesar Latin Prose History Parsing Physical Geography Analysis Caesar Latin Prose Composition Precis Paraphrase

Houk. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thuksday. Feiday. 9.30 to 10.30 .0.30 to 11.30 Parsing & Writing Latin — Delectus, Notes, Declensions Geography Dictation & Writing Latin —Syntax and Verbs Parsing & Writing Latin — Delectus, Notes, Declensions Geography Dictation & Writing Latin —Syntax and Verbs Writing. Latin Repetitions. .1.30 to 12.30 .2 to 12.40 2 to 3 English Grammar Drill English History ... English Grammar Geography and Map 3 to 4 lome Work ,.. French Exercise and Verbs Algebra Lat. Syntax, Verbs English Grammar English History Arithmetic Latin — Delectus, Notes, Declensions Geography French Exercise and Verbs Euclid French Exercise and Verbs Geometry Latin —Syntax and Verbs English Grammar English History English History ... Algebra Latin Repetitions... Geography English History English History. Arithmetic. Latin — Delectus. Notes, Declensions. Geography. French Exercise and Verbs.

Hour. Monday. Tuesday. Wednesday. Thursday. Friday. 9.30 to 10.30 Latin — Delectus, Notes, Declensions Parsing & Writing French Exercise and Verbs Latin —Syntax and Verbs Latin — Delectus, Notes, Declensions Parsing & Writing French Exercise and Verbs Drill Arithmetic English History ... Latin —Syntax and Verbs English Grammar Geography Latin —Syntax and Verbs Latin Eepelition. l0.30 to 11.30 L1.30 to 12.30 Dictation & Writing English Grammar D ictation & Writin g English Grammar Writing. G-eography and Map .2 to 12.40 2 to 3 3 to 4 Some Work ... Arithmetic English History ... Latin —Syntax and Verbs English Grammar Arithmetic English Latin — Delectus, Notes, Declensions Frencli Exercise and Verbs English History Arithmetic Geography Latin Repetition... Geography and Map Arithmetic. Geography. Latin ■— Delectus, Note3, Declensions. French Exercise and Verbs. English History.

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agreed that certain allotments of land within the said settlement should be appropriated for an estate to be purchased by Trustees for religious and educational uses within the same, which the said Association was to do by a certain proportion of the price to be realized by the sale and disposal of the lands comprising the said settlement being appropriated for religious and educational uses, and to be administered by the said Trustees and applied in part in the purchase of the land intended to be the estate of that Trust: And whereas, in pursuance of the aforesaid terms of purchase, a certain portion of the funds appropriated for religious and educational uses, and to be administered by the said Trustees and applied in part in the purchase of the land intended to be the estate of that Trust as aforesaid, was realized ; and certain allotments of land were purchased and acquired for such religious and educational uses, which said allotments of land are severally specified and described in Schedule A, hereto annexed, and a deed of trust and relative institutes as a constitution for church and schools, dated the sixth day of November, one thousand eight hundred and forty-seven, and other dates, were executed by Patrick Boyle Mure Macredie, of Perceton, Esquire, for and a3 specially authorized by the said Association by minute thereof in that behalf, and by certain purchasers and mandatories of purchasers of land in the said settlement, by which deed of trust " . . . . &c, &c. " Section VII. Two-thirds of the clear proceeds of the said rents, issues, and profits shall each year be applied by the said Trustees, in accordance with such regulations (to be made in manner hereinafter mentioned) as the said Synod of Otago and Southland shall from time to time prescribe, solely for the purpose of building or repairing manses and churches in the Provinces of Otago and Southland, and for endowing or aiding in the endowment of any theological chair or chairs in connection with the said Presbyterian Church of Otago in any college or University which may hereafter be erected in the said Province of Otago, or any or either of such purposes according to the said regulations, and shall be called 'The Ecclesiastical Fund.' " Section VIII. The said Trustees shall set apart the remaining one-third of the said clear proceeds for the purpose of forming a fund for educational purposes, and shall from time to time invest the same in their own names in any Government or real securities of the Colony of New Zealand, and shall also vary the said securities at their discretion, and shall receive the dividends, interest, and annual produce of the said securities, and reinvest the same in or upon like securities so that the proceeds, securities, dividends, interest, and annual produce may accumulate, and the said fund so formed shall be called ' The Education Fund.' " Section IX. The said Trustees shall from time to time apply the said Education Fund (in accordance with regulations to be made by the said Synod in manner hereinafter mentioned) in the erection or endowment of a literary chair or chairs iv any college or University which shall be erected or shall exist in the Province of Otago, or for either or both of those purposes. " Section X. The regulations of the said Synod to be made from time to time for the guidance of the said Trustees shall be made in the following manner—that is to say: they shall be passed as an interim Act of the said Synod, and a printed copy of such Act, together with a notice of the day on which the said Synod intend to finally adopt such regulations, shall be sent to each Minister who shall for the time being be a member of such Synod, and to the Session Clerk of each congregation of the Presbyterian Church under the jurisdiction of the said Synod, to be submitted to the session of the congregation of which he is Session Clerk, and each said Session shall be entitled to appear before the said Synod and to be heard on the subject of such regulations before any such regulations as aforesaid shall be adopted by the Synod, and before any alteration shall be made in any regulations which shall be already in force; and it shall be lawful for the said Synod from time to time, after hearing the said several congregations, to pass and adopt such regulations, either with or without alterations or amendments as to them shall seem expedient. " Section XI. Every professor of any theological chair that shall be endowed or aided in endowment as aforesaid shall be appointed and removable by the said Synod. " Section XII. All professors to any literary chair as aforesaid, endowed in the whole or to the extent of tw*o-thirds of such endow*ment from the said Education Fund, shall be appointed and removable by the said Trustees, with the concurrence of the said Synod."

2. "Dunedin Church Lands Ordinance, 1861." " Whereas, by Crown grant, bearing date the twenty-eighth day of June, one thousand eight hundred and fifty-eight, all that allotment .... was granted to the Superintendent of the Province of Otago and his successors, upon trust for a site for a church and school-house in connection with the Presbyterian Church of Otago . . . ." " Section 4. All the rents, issues, profits and proceeds arising from the pieces or parcels of land first and third hereinbefore mentioned and described, and from the mortgage or other disposition thereof, shall be paid to the Treasurer for the time being of the aforesaid Presbyterian Church of Otago ; and the clear proceeds, after deduction of the costs of collection and other necessary expenses, shall and may from time to time be applied by the said Presbyterian Church of Otago to the following purposes —viz., first, towards the erection of a church and manse on the aforesaid piece or parcel of land third hereinbefore described, and thereafter towards the erection and repair of any church or manse in connection with the said Presbyterian Church of Otago ; and the whole rents, issues, profits, and proceeds arising from the aforesaid piece or parcel of land second hereinbefore described, shall be applied towards the erection and maintenance of a college or other educational institution in Dunedin, and until so applied shall be invested in real or Government securities for accumulation, in name of the Superintendent of the said province in trust for the aforesaid purpose." [The "parcel of land second hereinbefore described" is the land granted (as above) "for a site for a church and schoolhouse."—Sec. R. Com.]

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B. COEEESPONDENCE. 1. Reply to Circular of 2Qth January, 1879. Sir,— Dunedin, 25th March, 1879. Ou behalf of the Otago Presbyterian Church Trustees, I have the honor to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 29th January last, and in reply I am directed to state that the Trustees have not the administration of any endowments made out of public estate, or grants of public money. I may add that the Trustees have the management of certain properties acquired by purchase, but they conceive your circular has no application to these. I have, &c, The Secretary, William H. Reynolds, Royal Commission on University and Higher Education, Chairman. Wellington.

2. Letter from Secretary to Royal Commission to the Hon. W. H. Reynolds, M.L.C, and Memorandum in reply. Royal Commission on University and Higher Education, Sir,— Dunedin, 7th July, 1879. I have the honor, referring to my letter of the 29th January, 1879, and to subsequent correspondence, to remind you of the endowment for a college, which, by Ordinance of 1861, was transferred from the Superintendent to the Presbyterian Church; and to request you to supply the Commission with information as to the condition, value, and application of the endowment. I have, &c, The Hon. W. H. Reynolds, Wm. Jas. Habens, Church Property Board, Dunedin. Secretary to Royal Commission. Memorandum. —The lands referred to in the Ordinance, 1861, were set aside by instructions of Mr. T. C. Harrington, the principal Secretary of the New Zealand Company, London, addressed to Colonel Wakefield, the principal Agent of the Company in New Zealand, under date 21st October, 1846. These instructions, which referred to Otago, were: " That Colonel Wakefield, assisted by his surveyors, be requested to appropriate sites for all other purposes referred to in clause 12, not omitting in each principal town, and under the head public buildings, a site for one church with school and playground for the children, and also, in the case of Dunedin, a site for a college." Clause 12 of the terms of purchase of land in Otago runs thus : " In laying out the chief town of the settlement to be named Dunedin —due provision to be made for public purposes, as fortifications, public buildings, sites for places of public worship and instruction .... for all which instructions have already been given to the Company's principal Agent." These terms of purchase are dated 24th November, 1847. From the foregoing it must appear manifest that these properties are not a gift from the Crown, but that they were acquired by the Otago Association, in their agreement with the New Zealand Company. As regards the question " as to the condition, value, and application " of these lands, I refer to the " Proceedings of the Synod of the Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland, 1879," a printed copy of which, I understand, has been forwarded to the Commission by the Church Factor, Mr. E. Smith. Dunedin, 10th July, 1879. William H. Reynolds.

C. Extracts from Appendix to Proceedings op Synod op Presbyterian Church of Otago and Southland, January, 1879. 1. College Fund Account to 30th September, 1878. Cr. £ s. d. Balance ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 54 2 2 Rents ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 902 7 0 Grant, Ecclesiastical Fund ... ... ... ... ... 600 0 0 £1,556 9 2 Dr. £ s. d. Professor Salmond's salary, 13 months ... ... ... ... 650 0 0 Repairs, fencing, &c. ... ... ... ... ... ... 48 7 0 Rates ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 7 16 3 Interest 12 months, £600 ... ... ... ... ... 48 0 0 Rev. M. Watt ... ... ... ... ... ... 100 0 0 Janitor ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 5 0 0 Stewart and Denniston ... ... ... ... ... ... 12 16 6 Reith and Wilkie, and Times ... ... ... ... ... 9 4 0 Commission on £902 7s. ... ... ... ... ... 45 2 4 Balance forward— £ s. d. Loan on mortgage ... ... ... ... 600 0 0 Cash in bank ... ... ... ... 30 3 1 630 3 1 £1,556 9 2

fi.-i

2. Education Fund Account. Cr. £ s. d. Balance ... ... ... ... ... ... ... 4,574 10 2 One-third net receipts ... ... ... ... ... ... 1,200 16 4 Interest on investments ... ... ... ... ... ... 331 7 7 £6,106 14 1 Dr. £ s. d. Cash paid Professor McGregor, 12£ months ... ... ... ... 612 10 0 Synod expenses ... ... ... ... ... ... 20 0 0 Commission on £331 7s. 7d. ... ... ... ... ... 16 11 5 Balance forward ... ... ... ... ... ... 5,457 12 8 £6,106 14 1 Credit balance ... ... ... ... ... ... £5,457 12 8

INDEX.

Note. —The Report, Proceedings, and Appendix are referred to by page; the Evidence by the number of the question. In the latter case, where there are several consecutive questions upon the same subject, the leading question only is referred to. r. = Report; p. = Proceedings; c. = Evidence ; a. = Appendix. Adams, Mr. James, evidence, 1516. ! Agriculture, School o/~—continued. Adams, Mr. Percy 8., evidence, 3249. Objects, c. 4148, 4161, 4193, 4206, 4393, 4471, 4490, 6932 ; Ad eundem graduates [see under University of New Zealand). a. 26, 88. Affiliation, r. 9, 12, 16; p. 1, 5, 7, 8, 27; c. 24, 36, 71, 92, 160, Scholarships, c. 523, 1750, 4163, 4204, 4480, 4486, 4495, 270, 282, 413, 422, 447, 450, 455, 496, 515, 66r, 672, 686, ■ 4499, 4686, 4755. 753. .55.849. 858, 876, 885, 906, 915, 929, 955, 1105, Staff, c. 1748, 1761, 1778, 1789, 4143, 4163, 4179, 4185, "76> 1233. 1347. :385. '4°B, i4'6> 1435, 1448, 1525,1574, 4198, 4471, 4748, 4755 ;a. 26, 88. 1598, 1622, 1632, 1680, 1688, 1936, 1978, 2001,2019,2055, Students, c. 1242, 1777, 1796, 4147, 4161, 4173,4204, 4387, 2070, 2075, 2253, 2266, 2303, 2307, 2328, 2332, 2503, 2531, 4494, 4497. 2567, 2571, 2609, 2641, 2685, 2690, 2707, 2747, 2753, 2789, University, connection with, c. 226, 4191, 4407, 4478. 2807, 2874, 2884, 2902, 2914, 2976,3133, 3180, 3201, 3216, 1 Aitken, Mr. W., evidence, 2813. 3548, 3571, 3703, 3860, 3875, 4097,4112, 4119,4139,4279, I Alexander, Dr., evidence, 7652. 4312, 4314, 4339, 444. 4468, 4599, 4693, 4704,4710,4718, j Amuri, Nelson College Reserves at, c. 2949, 301 1 ;a. 7. 4802, 4813, 4843, 5045, 5052, 5109, 5134, 5195, 5427, 5942, I Andrew, Rev. J. C, evidence, 3102. 5949, 6040, 6067, 61 14, 6482, 6493, 6498, 6501, 6845,6853, I Aotea, Wesleyan Reserves at, c. 332, 746 ;a. 4. 6869, 6883, 7082, 7082, 7091, 7094, 7142, 7160, 7195, 7286, Ararimu, University Reserve at, c. 379; «. 3. 7290, 7325, 7331, 7358, 7549, 7561 ;a. 87. (For references Art and Design, schools of— to the affiliation of the respective schools and colleges see Auckland,^. 2, 17; c. 1125, 5767. under each.) Dunedin,^). 2; c. 5768. Agriculture, School of, p. 2, 26 ; c. 226, 229, 517, 523, 951, 1139, Wellington, p. 2 ; r. 5256, 5568. 1225, 1242, 1739, 3492, 3536, 3579, 3596, 3623, 3627, 3810, Ashburton High School, p. 3, 4, 5;a.8, 9 ; c. 3662. 4142, 4214, 4366, 4386, 4407, 4469, 4686, 4727, 6501, 6932 ; Auckland, Bishop of, evidence, 391. a. 9, 26, 88; r. 14. Auckland Church of England Grammar School (Parnell), p. 3, 4, Auckland, establishment in, c. 1139, 1225, 1242, 1767. 5, 7, 16 ; c. 419, 421, 448, 457,468,480, 534, 615, 619, 630, Canterbury Agricultural School— 661, 1141, 1161, 1233, 1516, 1988, 2585 ; a. 1, 2, 17, 35, 36. Boarding, c. 3644. Affiliation, c. 422, 448, 450, 457, 661, 1176, 1233, 1525,' 1598, Buildings, a. 27, 88 ; c. 3596, 3605, 4143, 4755. 1680. Canterbury College, connection with, c. 3536, 3627, 4163, Boarding, c. 1644, 1668; a. 36. 4179,4185,4203,4366,4471,4738; a. 26,88. Buildings and apparatus, p. 16; c. 427, 649, 1164, 1605, 1643; Certificates, c. 4190, 4478. a. 36. Course, length, c. 4195, 4488. Classes, p. 16; c. 1537, 1541, 1554, 2588; a. 35. Curriculum, a. 27 ;e. 1757, 3629, 4175, 4188, 4193, 4366, Civil Service examination, p. 16 ;e. 1574, 1589 ;n. 35. 4479- Commission, report of Committee of, p. 16. Endowments, a. 9; c. 3579, 3609, 3616, 3650, 4201, 4470, Curriculum,^). 16; c. 634, 638, 1166, 1174, 1180, 1531, 1535, 4727, 4746. 1563, 1574, 1598, 2586'; a. 35. , sale of, c, 3587, 4749. Endowments, c. 424, 1141, 1164, 1518, 1679. Establishment of, c. 3810, 4143, 4469, 4755, 6501; a. 27, Evening classes, c. 534. 88. Examinations, c. 480, 619, 1541, 1574, 1647, 2585 ; a. 35. Expenditure, c. 3536, 3588, 3602, 3624, 3627. , entrance, c. 1552. Farm, a. 27, 88 ; c. 3588, 3602, 3611, 4143. , matriculation, c. 1577, 1586. Fees, c. 3642. , standard of, c. 1574. Governing body, c. 3492, 4207, 4214, 4215, 4223, 4736, , University, a. 17. 4743 ; «■ 88 ; **• 14- Examiners, c. 481, 619, 653, 1520, 1584, 1647, 2585 ; a. 35. Income, c. 3587, 3597, 3610, 3623, 3651, 4162, 4727; Expenditure, c. 463, 649 ;a. 36. p. 26. Extras, c. 1162, 1523, 1564. Laboratory, c. 3605, 3608. Bees, c, 417, 431, 643, 1162, 1520, 1564, 1613, 2589; _. 36. Maintenance, cost of, c. 3602, 3610, 3623, 4154, 4161, I Foundation, a. 35. 4169, 4471. Governing body, c. 419, 627, 650, 653, 1161, 1546, 1647, 1889 Museum, c. 3608, 4367. a. 35. Objects, c. 3639, 4148, 4161, 4193, 4206, 4471, 4490; a. Gymnasium, c. 1571. 26,88. Headmaster's powers, duties, &c, p. 16; c. 632, 1536, 1546, Scholarships, c. 3636, 4163, 4204, 4480, 4486, 4495, 1557,1615; a. 35. 4499, 4686, 4755. Holidays, c. 1561. Site, c. 3589, 3611, 3632, 4143; a. 26. Hours, c. 1561, 1564. Staff, c. 3536, 3603, 3630, 3648, 4143, 4163, 4179, Income, c. 424, 646, 1163, 1519, 1679, 2589; a. 36. 4185, 4198, 4471, 4748, 4755 ; a. 26, 88. Inspection and examination, c. 1648. Students, c. 3639, 3646, 4147, 4161, 4204, 4494, 4497. Library, c. 1570 ; a. 36. University, connection with ; c. 4191, 4478. Objects, c. 621, 646, 1164, 1535 ; a. 35. Certificates, c. 1750, 4190, 4387, 4478. Playgrounds,^). 16; c. 1572. Cirencester and other European Colleges, c. 1739, 1768, 1774, Prizes, c. 1520, 1657 ; a. 36. 1794, 4191, 4366, 4386, 4408, 4479, 4490. Religious instruction, c. 639, 1535, 1555, 1662. Course, length, c. 4195, 4488. Scholars, age, c. 1166, 1552; a. 35. Curriculum, c. 1741, 4175. 4188, 4192, 4366, 4386, 4479. ■ , class of, c. 639, 1634. Diplomas and Degrees (see Certificates). , generally,^. 16; c. 1533, 1552, 1633; a. 35, 36. Establishment, policy of, c. 229, 517, 951, 1225, 1752, 1790, , number, p. 16; c. 421, 648, 1533, 1618, 2591; a. 35. 3810, 6501. from primary schools, c. 1669. Farms, c. 1793, 4143; a- 27> 88. , University, c. 430, 433, 1236, 1585; a. 17, 36. Maintenance, costot, c. 1768, 4154, 4161, 4169, 4471. Scholarships or exhibitions, c. 461, 468, 615, 646, 1519, 158S, Number, c. 1769. 1673, 1989 ; a. 35, 36.

H.—l.

r. = Report; p. — Proceedings; c. = Evidence ; a. = Appendix. Auckland Church of England Grammar School (Parnell) —contd. Auckland College and Grammar School —continued. Science-teaching in, p. 16; c. 449, 1523, 1539, 1602, 1646; Staff, number, c. 1262, 1306, 1372, 1384, 1481 ; a. 33. a. 36. , remuneration, c. 804, 1351, 1356, 1489 ; a. 33. Site, p. 16; c. 1573. Suitability, &c, c. 782, 797, 824, 1220, 1481, 1997, 2003, 2074, Staff, appointment, c. 632, 1163, 1546; a. 35. 2082, 2122. , experience, &c, c. 434, 1163, 1524, 1538, 1617, 1682. Technical education in, c. 1225, 2761. , generally,/). 16; c. 651, 1163, 1536, 1546, 1557, 1679, Terms, c. 1452 ;a. 35. 1682, 2588; a. 35. Time-table, p. 15, 16; c. 793, 1295; a. 34, 35. , number, p. 16; c. 434, 457, 1537, 2588, 2590; a. 35. Trust, .. 371, 776, 780, 788, 871,913,1193, 1294, 1912 ; a. 32. , remuneration, c. 642, 652, 1163, 1520, 1613; a. 35. University education in, p. 15 ; c. 101, 849, 915, 1234, 1238, Suitability, &c, c. 622. 1297, 1350, 1373, 1384, 1416, 1435, 1914. 2011, 2055, Terms, c. 1637. 2061, 2065, 2074, 2082, 2253, 2273 ; a. 16, 17, 18, 35 ; Time-table, c. 1531 ; a. 35. r, 8. University education in, c. 430, 433, 1575, 1682; a. 17, 35, 36. grants, c. 849, 1235, 1347- - c. 422, 448, 1526, 1681. scholarships taken, &c, c. 1403, 1515, 2254, 2273; scholarships taken, &c, c. 1585, 1674; a. 17. a. 16, 17. Vacations (see Terms). Vacations (sec Terms). Auckland College and Grammar School, p. 3, 4, 5, 7, 15 ; c. 100, Auckland Girls' High School, r. 16 ;p.3,4,5, 16 ; c. 1032, 1810, 370, 774, 1108, 1179, 1187, 1220, 1233, 1250, 1907, 1911, 1547, 1864, 2154, 2341 ; a. 5, 47. 1993, 2055, 2061, 2081, 2147, 2209, 2253, 2273, 2332,2395, Affiliation, c. 1105. 2446, 2469, 2480, 2512, 2526, 2547, 2558, 2575, 2601, 2676, Auckland College, connection with, c. 2209. 2747, 2761, 2768, 2791 A, 2807; a. 1,2,4,16, 17,18,32, Boarding, c. 1067, 1072, 1080, 2161, 2247; p. 16. 33, 34. 35 !r. 8. Buildings, p. 16; c. 1048, 1070, 1079, 2244, 2379> 2386. Affiliation, c. 100, 849, 859, 893, 915, 929, 1233, 1347, 1385, Classes, c. 2171-76, 2189, 2232; a. 47. 1408, 2253, 2304. Commission, report of Committee of, p. 16. Boarding, c. 828, 838, 1334, 1483, 2105, 2100, 2547, 2552, Course, length, c. 2233. 2584,2761-62,2778,2800; n. 34. Curriculum, p. 16 ; c. 1039, 1050, 1053, 1057, 1061, 1075, Buildings and apparatus, p. 15; c. 779,826,854, 1262, 1328, 1088, 1868, 2159, 2169, 2173, 2187, 2214, 2226, 2239; '343, M 57. '481. 2086, 2101, 2645 ; a. 34. a. 47. Classes,/). 15; c. 1238, 1281, 1303, 1495; a. 33. Establishment, c. 1058, 1866, 2344. Civil Service examination, c. 2512. Endowments, p. 4, 5 ; c. 1040, 1063, 1095, 2185, 2361, 2374; Commission, report of Committee of, p. 15. a. 5. Curriculum, p. 15; c. 792, 796, 824, 1180, 1220, 1223, 1284, Examinations, c. 1045, 2189. 1336, 1343. '346, 1416, 1416, 1997, 2003,2012,2055, , entrance, c. 1052, 1102, 2175, 2214. 2063, 2085, 2125, 2513, 2531, 2559, 2575, 2691 ; a. Examiners, c. 1046, 2248, 2252. 34- Expenditure, c. 1048, 2359, 2377. Endowments, p. 4, 5 ; c. 370, 832 : fl. 4, 32. Extras, c. 1056, 1872, 2172. Evening classes, c. 780, 911, 1187, 1350, 1354, 1364, 1911, Fees, c. 1055, 1068, 1072, 1089, 1098, 1871, 2162, 2215, 2206, 2395 i"• 33- 2347. 235 1- 2358, 2377, 2380. Examinations, c. 819, 1399, 1462, 1996. Headmaster's powers, duties, Xc, c. 1037, 1088, 2173, 2176. , entrance, c. 821, 1278, 2004. Hours, p. 16. . matriculation, c. 1407, 2307. Income, funds, grants, &c, r. 16 ; c. 1041, 1063, 1069, 1081, , standard of, c. 822. 1091, 1094, 1107, 1810, 2184, 2206, 2347, 2351,2373, , University, c. 1399. 2387. Examiners, c. 817, 1400, 1462, 1996, 2308, 2558; a. 34, 35. Inspection and examination, c. 1864, 2248, 2368. Expenditure, c. 828, 851, 1263, 1350, 14.59 ; a. 34-35. Lower school, policy of, c. 1096, 1107, 2214, 2226. Extras, c. 1488. Maintenance, )-. 16; c. 1081, 1091, 2184, 2206, 2215, 2351, Fees, c. 797, 799, 839, 846, 1108, 1451, 1488, 1514, 2005, 2377. 2115 ;a. 34. Objects, c. 1050, 1058, 1096, 1099, 1869; a. 2347. Female education in, c. 1368, 2074, 2209, 2273, 2292, 2469, Primary education in, c. 1050, 1053, 1096, iioo, 2214, 2226, 2484, 2593. 2352. Foundation (grant), a. 32. Prizes, c. 2250. Free primary education, effect of, c. 2527. Pupils, age, c. 2174, 2229, 2231. Girls' High School, students from, c. 2209. , capability, c. 1075, 2015, 2048, 2194, 2210. Governing body, c. 783, 1265, 1285, 1295, 1462, 1475, 1994, , class of, c. 1071, 1098, 2219. 2..9G, 2535. matriculated, c. 2204, 2209. Grants from Government, c. 2103, 2550, 2552, 6106. , numbers,/). 16; c. 1038, 1067, 1079,1870, 2160, 2214, Gymnasium, c. 1343. 2377. Headmaster's powers, duties, &c, c. 790, 822, 829, 1260, 1265, , primaiy schools, from, c. 2218, 2226. 1267, 1278, 1285, 1474, 1485, 1490. Scholarships, c. 1877, 2223, 2230. Hours, c. 1323, 2703. Site,/). 16; c. 2245. Income, a. 34, 35; c. 374, 776, 781, 813, 825, 846, 849, 1108, Staff, appointment, c. 1036. 1239> 1458, '514, 2004, 3101. , experience, &c, c. 1084, 2156, 2167. Inspection and examination, c. 823, 1469, 2337. , generally, p. 16; c. 1065, 1084, 2169, 2176. Library, c. 1340. , number, c. 1035, 1065, 1867, 2169, 2221. Maintenance, cost, c. 826, 1489, 2791 ; a. 2823. , remuneration, c. 1064, 1073, 2163, 2177, 2192. Objects, c. 371, 776, 780, 788, 871, 1418,1435,2055,2531, , sex, c. 1060, 1867, 2157, 2169, 2176, 2179, 2189, 2204, 2749,2761; a. 32. 2210,2221. Playgrounds, c. 779, 832, 2086, 2117. Suitability,/). 16; c. 1039, 2350. Prizes, c. 1471 ; a. 35. Time-table,/). 16; c. 2173. " Punishments, c. 1473. Training classes, p. 16; c. 1051, 1087 1810, 1847, lS6 9< '873, Religious instruction, _. 797. 2183, 2186. Scholars, age, c. 1278, 2007 ; a. 33. Auckland Secondary Education Reserves, c. 381, 2371. , class of, c. 797, 1450, 2553. Auckland University College (see University' Colleges.) ■ .generally, p. 15; c. 781, 825, 828, 838, 889, 1254, Baker, Mr. Joseph, evidence, 3328. 1428, 1432, 2003, 2109; a. 33. Barnicoat, Mr. J. IV., evidence, 2981. -—■ from primary schools, c. 1491, 1494, 2003. Barron, Mr. C. C. N., evidence, 5599. ■ , University, .. 887, 1238, 1297, 1357, 1364, 1376, Bathgate, Mr. District-Judge, evidence, 7068. 1387, 2273 ; /). 15; fl. 3H ; r. 8. Bickerton, Professor, evidence, 3787. Scholarships, c. 798, 845, 1244, 1395, I4°3> '492, H94, 1499, Dishop of Auckland, evidence, 391. 1907, 2254, 2273 ; a. 34,35. Bishop cf Christchurch, evidence, 4035. Science-teaching in,/). 15; c. 854, 915, 928, 1319, 1326, 1349, Bishop of Nelson, evidence, 2825. 1359, 1458. Bishop of Wellington, evidence, 5326. Site,/). 15; c. 832, 2086, 2118. Bishopdale Theological College, Nelson, p. 8, 30; c. 2871 ; a. I, Staff, appointment, c. 791, 814, 1265, 1268. 2, 31. , duties,/). 15 ; c. 829, 914, 1238, 1297, 1373,1384,1497, Bishop's School, Nelson, p. 3 ; c. 2884 ; a. 1, 2, 49. 2011, 2055, 2068 ;a. 33. Black, Professor, evidence, 6934. .experience and status,/). 15 ; c. 1250, 1259, 1262,1380, Bowen, Mr. C. C, evidence, 4804, 5019. 1427, 3055, 2061, 2066 ; a. 33. Brent, Mr. D., evidence, 6165.

H.—l.

r. m Report; p. = Proceedings ; f. = Evidence ; a, _= Appendix. Brown, Mr. J. E., evidence, 4210. Canterbury Education Board, Chairman's evidence, 4866. Brown, Dr., evidence, 7586. , Secretary's evidence, 3869. Browning, Mr. J. S., evidence, 3310. Canterbury Reserves for University,e. 266; a. 3, 8, 9, 10. Buddie, Eev. T., evidence, 662. Canterbury Girls' High School, p. 3, 4, 5, 21, 22 ; c. 3493, 3497, Bum, Mrs., evidence, 6213. 3510, 3577, 3591, 3653, 3691, 3728, 3821, 3933,3992,4214, Burrows, Rev, R., evidence, 536. 5019 ; a. i, 2, 8, 9, 50, 88. Bury, Mr. M., evidence, 7766. Boarding, c. 3674, 3744; «. 51. Cambridge local examinations, c. I'JT, 4799, 6883, 6908. Buildings,/). 22; c. 3510, 3591, 3691 ; a. 50, JI. Campbell, Dr. J. £~, evidence, 1032. Classes,/). 22 ; a. 50. Campbell, Mr. __*~ evidence, 3426. Commission, report of Committee of, p. 2 r, 22. Canterbury Association endowments, p. 14,18; c. 4039; a. 10-14,43. Curriculum, p. 22 ;e. 3668, 3747, 3752, 3778 ;a. 50, 51. Canterbury Church Property Trustees endowments, p. 14, 18; c. Endowments, c. 3653; a. 8, 9. 40.39, 446..; "■ 2, 10-14, 43- Examinations, c. 3733, 3751 ;a. 51. Canterbury College, p. 2-8, 21-23 ; c. 65, 239, 262, 269, 284, 857, Examiners, c. 3577, 3767 ; a. 51. 867, 2506, 3474, 3737, 3757, 3784, 3787, 3970, 3976, 4073, Expenditure, c. 3664. 4098, 4111, 4116,4142,4211, 4301, 4313, 4344, 4353,4415, Extras,/). 22; c. 3665, 3668, 3747, 3752 ;a. 50, 51. 4528, 4543,4588,4695,4757,4804,4834,4880, 4921,4938, Fees, c. 3665, 3668,3743, 3747, 3768, 5024; a. 50, 51. 4990, 5000, 5002, 5019, 5041, 5045; «. 1, 2, 8,9, 17, 18, Foundation, c. 3672; a. 50. 26, 88 ; r. generally. Governing body, c. 3493, 3497, 3577, 3737, 3757, 3821, 4214, Affiliation, c. 239, 3548, 3710, 3722, 3726, 3860; a. 89. 4215> 4223, 5019, 5025 ; a. 50 ; r. 14. Agricultural school, see under. Grants from Government, c. 3691 ; a. 50. Boarding, c. 3544; fl. 88. Income, funds, &c, c. 3653, 3665, 3691, 5024; a. 8, 9. Boys' High School (see Christchurch Boys' High School). Inspection, c. 3935 ; a. 51. Buildings, c. 3526, 3534, 3590, 3605, 3689, 3822, 4755, 4990 ; Lectures (College), c. 3784; a. 51. a 27, 88. Objects, a. 50, 51. Committees, c. 3492, 3496. Prizes, c. 3771 ; a. 51. Commission, report of Committee of, />. 31. Pupils, age, c. 3734 ; a. 50. Cost, c. 2506. , class of, c. 3786, 3992 ; a. 51. Curriculum, c. 3478, 3553, 3823, 4177, 4435, 4650, 5006, , number, c. 3667, 3732, 3773, 3992 ; a. 50, 51. 5041 (and see Time-table). ■ from primary schools, c. 3761, 3765. Endowments, c. 3504, 3532, 3535, 3579, 5609, 3616, 3650, , University, c. 3783. 3692, 4201, 4219, 4223, 4721, 4727, 4840; a. 8, 9, 88. Scholarships or exhibitions, c. 3664, 3762, 3931 ; a. 51. , sale of, c. 3508, 3533, 3587, 3609, 3653, 4749; a. S, 9. Site, p. 22 ;c. 3510, 3691; a. 50, 51. Evening classes and lectures, c. 3558, 3791, 3799, 3806, 3865, Staff, appointment, c. 3737--3970, 3980, 4031, 4303. , experience and status, /.. 22 ; c. 3730, 3756 ; a. 50. Examinations, c. 3566, 3570, 3820, 3823. , number,/). 22; c. 3664, 3667, 3736, 3755; a. 50. Examiners, c. 3566; a. 27. , remuneration, c. 3664; a. 50. Exhibitions (see Scholarships). Terms, c. 3665, 3750. Expenditure, c. 3506-43, 3588, 3602, 3664, 3719, 4990 ; a. 27. Time-table, c. 3742 ; a. 50. Fees, c. 3541, 3642, 3719, 4359, 4633, 4998. ' Canterbury Secondary Education Reserves, c. 3656, 3677. Female education in, c. 3551, 3846, 3973, 3981, 3997. Carnarvon, Wellington College Reserve at, c. 5456, 5477, 6109. Foundation, c. 3477 ; a. 88. Catley, Mr. J. T., evidence, 3462. Girls' High School (see Canterbury Girls' High School). Christchurch, Bishop of, evidence, 4035. Governing body, c. 3482, 3496, 3554, 3572, 3582, 3737, 3813, Christchurch Boys' High School, p. 3, 4, 5; c. 3493, 3497, 3577. 4030,4207, 4211, 4370, 4422, 4431, 4457, 4611, 4732, 3656, 3658, 3676, 3821, 4214, 4215, 4950, 4990, 5016, 4834, 4922, 5000, 5019, 5025, 7030; r. 9. 5019, 5025, 5053 ; a. 2, 8, 9, 88. Grants from Government, c. 3512, 3516, 3520, 3525, 3529, Affiliation, c. 5053. 3594. 3689, 3840, 4933, 4990; a. 8, 88. Boarding, c. 3687. Income, <•. 3504-43, 3587, 3610, 3623, 3651, 3656, 4438, 4471, Buildings, c. 3493, 3678, 3688, 4951, 4990 ; a. 88. 4703, 4722, 4734, 4994, 5007, 5024; fl. 8, 9, 27. College, relation to, c. 3497, 4950, 4990, 4996, 5025, 5031. Laboratories, c. 3691, 3840; a. 88. Curriculum, c. 5018, 5025, 5031. Law school, see under. Endowments, c. 3659, 3662, 3676, 4993 ; a. 8, 9, 88. Lectures, c. 3557, 3569, 3630, 3698-3702, 3784, 3799, 3806, Establishment, c. 3493, 3656, 3684, 4950, 4990, 4996, 5016. 3823, 3843. 3857. 3865, 397°. 3980, 4303> 4353. 4378, Fees, c. 4998, 5024. 4438, 4609, 4637, 4880. Governing body, c. 3493, 3497, 3577, 4214, 4215, 4223, 5019, Library, College, c. 3537, 4730. 5025 ; a. 9, 88. Library, Public, c. 3492, 3497, 3504, 3513, 3577, 3691, 3822, Grants from Government, c. 3678, 4990. 4214, 4215, 4220, 4410, 4730, 4842, 4929 ; a. 88. Grants from secondary education reserves, c. 3659 ; fl. 8, 9. Medical school, see under. Income, c. 3659, 3676, 4994, 4998, 5024; a. 8, 9. Museum, see under. Objects, c. 4950, 4990, 5018, 5027, 5031. Objects, c. 3478, 3557, 3561, 5000; a. 88. Site, c. 4954, 4990. Otago University, petition against charter for, a. 88. Staff, c. 3685. Prizes, c. 3540. Christ's College, and Christ's College Grammar School, r. 8 ; p. Professorial Council, c. 3538, 3554, 3576, 3813. 3, 4, 5, 7, 21, 22, 23; c. 3723, 3860, 3933, 3942, 4035, Professors representation on governing body, c. 3575, 3810, 4224, 4419, 4465, 4635, 4666, 4698, 4808, 4938, 4997, 3813, 4034, 4214, 4373, 4431, 4457, 4611, 4835, 4924. 5017, 5028, 5036; fl. 1, 2, 10-14, 16-18, 43-47. Scholarships or exhibitions, c. 3537, 3539, 3636, 4163, 4204, Affiliation, c. 3723, 4097, 4101, 4104, 4112, 4279, 4312, 4314, 4495 ; fl. 27. 4340, 4813 ; a. 46. Science-teaching in, c. 3799, 3806, 3840, 3857, 4353. Boarding,/). 22, 23; c. 4059, 4064, 4081, 4096, 4102, 4108, Sites, c. 3510, 3534, 3691, 4990. 4110; a. 46-47. Staff, c. 3513, 3520, 3536, 3541, 3603, 3626, 3664, 3706, 3719, Buildings and apparatus, p. 22, 23; c. 4076, 4082, 4087,4291; 3737,3788, 3995. 4175. 447', 4«47. 47°". 4723.473 8. «• 13, 43, 46-47--5007, 5045, 6471 ; a. 26, 27, 88. Canterbury College, relations with, c. 3860, 4102, 4108, 4116, Students, c. 3551, 3799, 3843, 3846, 3860, 3991, 4357, 4361, 4301, 4313, 4344, 4421, 4808, 4938,, 4996. 4434, 4609, 4633, 4808, 5031; a. 17, 18, 27, 88 ; r. 8. Civil Service examination in, c. 4345. Suitability, &c, c. 3481, 3978, 4418, 4700, 4720, 4807, 5006, Classes, c. 4102, 4233, 4257; a. 43-46. 5041. College department, c. 4037, 4041, 4088, 4096, 4102, 4105, Technical education in, c. 3700, 3787, 3799, 3806, 4353, 4375- 4' IO> 436 ; a. 10-14, 43-47. Technical science, school of, c. 3504, 3513, 3526, 3791, 4375. Commission, report of Committee of,/). 21, 22. Terms and vacations, c. 3565, 4017, 4019 ; a. 27. Curriculum, c. 4048, 4074, 4104, 4115,4228, 4259,4262, 4278, Time-table, c. 3555, 3981, 4031 ; a. 26. 4347, 5 017. 5029 ; a. 43-47. University education in, c. 3479, 3504, 4418, 4700, 4720, 4723, Endowments, c. 4039, 4077, 4465 ; fl. 10-14, 43. 4^-47--4807, 5006, 5041 ; a. 16-18, 27, 88 ; r. 8. Examinations, c. 4065, 4068, 4098, 4117, 4294; a. 43, 46. University, relation to, c. 239, 3549, 3553, 3706, 3726, 3860 ; , entrance, c. 4254. a. 26, 88; r. generally. , matriculation, c. 4117; a. 46. Canterbury Collegiate Union, c. 100, 3977, 4099, 4313, 4378, Examiners, c. 4.066, 4072, 4117, 4294, 4296 ;a. 46. 4697, 4806, 5005. Expenditure, a. 46. Canterbury Education Reserves, c. 266; a. 3, 8, 9, 10 (and see Extras, c. 4262, 4268 ;a. 45. under the several endowed institutions). Fees, c. 4059. 4075, 4979, 4268, 4998 ; a. 46.

H.—l

r. — Report; p. = Proceedings ;e. ss Evidence; a. =_ Appendix. Christ's College, and Christ's College Grammar —contd. \Education Board, Otago, Inspector's evidence, Female education, whether provision for, c. 4111. - — , Secretary's evidence, 6243. Foundation, c. 4037, 4041 ; a. 10, 43. , Wellington, Chairman's evidence, 5243. Governing body,/). 22, 23; c. 4055, 4117, 4243,4294, 5000; ■ —, Secretary and Inspector's evidence a- 10, 43- 5559-Grammar-school department, c. 4037, 4041, 4102, 4106, 4110, Scholarships (see under Scholarships). 4224, 4808, 4938 ; a. 10-14, 43-46. Educational Institute of Otago, Science Lectures, c. 6281. Grants from Government, c. 4082, 4087 ; a. 13, 43. Education, professors of, c. 226, 1847, 5046. Gymnasium, c. 4277 ; a. 46. Engineering, school of, cfc., c. 226, 232, 285, 517, 523, 95', 113 . Headmaster's powers, &c, c. 4117, 4231, 4239, 4243,4307; 1225, 3791, 3812, 4381, 5550, 5870, 5951-6035, 6501, a. 44. 7699 ; a. 85, 87. Holidays, c. 4289. Evening classes generally, c. 530, 911, 1187, 1225, 1232, 1350, Hours, c. 4263 ;a. 45. 1800, 1895, 1911, 2395, 2707, 2714, 2725, 2736, 3791, 3795, Income, c. 4075 ; a. 43, 46. 3806,3865,3970,3981, 4013, 4303, 5182,5737,5777,5951Inspection, r, 8; p. 22; c. 3933, 4304, 4311, 4964, 4997, 5036. 6035, 6281, 6832, 6939. Library, c. 4270; a. 46. Female education generally, r. 16; c. 242, 1058, 1075, 1103, 1358, Medical Council, examination accepted by, c. 4635, 4666; 1365,1616,1847,1864,1876,2015,2048,2074,2151,2179, a. 46. 2183, 2191, 2209, 2223, 2235, 2273, 2292, 2344, 2469, 2484, Objects, c. 4048 ; a. 10-14, 43- 2537, 2593, 2721, 2725, 3138, 3192, 3313, 3551, 3728, 3924, Playground, p. 23 ; a. 43. 3981, 3997, 4141, 4513, 4543, 4890, 5230, 5267, 5287, 5295, Prizes, c. 4295. 5363, 5736, 6143, 6159, 6213, 6260, 6269, 6367, 6971, 7282. Punishments, c. 4307. (See also under particular schools). Religious instruction in, c. 4053, 4063, 4093, 4228-30, 4956, Fergusson, Mr. R. H. D., evidence, 1739. 5000. Fitzgerald, Mr. W. S., evidence, 6293. Scholars, _. 3860, 4048, 4070, 4074, 4091, 4096, 4102, 4109, Fitziierbert, Wellington College Reserve at, c. 5448 ;a. 6. 4284, 4303, 4308, 4318, 4328, 4809, 4938, 4952, 5031 ; Fraser, Rev. C, evidence, 5002. a. 16-18, 43-47. Freeman's Bay R. C. Reserve, p. 33; c. 363, 1015, 1731 ; a. 5. , age, c. 4048, 4253, 4256, 4328 ; a. 44. Fynes, Very Rev. H. J., evidence, 964. , class of, c. 4091, 4288. Gilchrist Scholarship, c. 84, 7567. ■ , number, c. 4110, 4284; a. 44. Gillies, Mr. Justice, evidence, 774. ■ from primary schools, c. 4308. Gillies, Mr. R., evidence, 7794. , University, c. 3860, 4070, 4102, 4318, 4348, 4809, Girls' high schools (see under respective districts, and under Female 5031 ; a. 16-18, 43-46. education). Scholarships, c. 4089, 4466 ; a. 43, 46. , Masters for, c, 2157, 2176, 2179, 2204, 2210, 2221. ■ , Education Board, c.3933,3942, 4310,4321,4334,4997. Grace, Dr. M. S., evidence, 5065. Science-teaching, p. 23 ; c. 4228-30, 4262 ; a. 46. Grafton Road (Auckland) College and Grammar School Reserve, Secondary education in, c. 4100, 4812, 5029. c. 373. Site, c. 4040; a. 13, 43. . Wesleyan Reserve, c. 33X, 729 ; a. 4. Staff, p. 22, 23; c. 4059, 4076, 4102, 4107, 4115, 4224-32, Grammar School Education (sec under Secondary). 4239, 4243, 4281, 4958 ; a. 43-44. Haast, Professor yon, evidence, 4353. — —, appointment, c. 4224, 4245 ;a. 44. Hadjield, Bishop, evidence, 5326. , experience and status, c. 4107, 4226,4282; a.44,46,47. Hamilton, Mr. J. W., evidence, 3976. —-, number, c. 4107, 4228, 4250, 4281 ; a. 44, 46,47. Harper, Bishop, evidence, 4035. , remuneration, c. 4059, 4076; a. 44. Haultain, Hon. Colonel, evidence, 1140. Suitability &c, c. 4074, 4808, 4950, 4996, 5017. Headmasters' powers, <J-c. (see under several schools). Terms, c. 4289. Heath, Mr. N., evidence, 2154. Theological purposes, &c, c. 4039, 4046, 4063,4089; a. 10-14, Higher education (see Secondary, and University). 43-46. Hobson Street (Auckland) School Reserve, c. 367 ; a. 5. Time-table, c. 4239, 4244; a. 45-47. Hocken, Dr., evidence, 7422. University education in, c. 3860, 4070, 4096, 4098, 4115, 4278, Hopuhopu Reserve, c. 594 ;a. 4. 4313, 4330, 4340, 4808, 4938, 5031 ; a. 16-18, 43-47. Howard, Mr. C. C, evidence, 4503. education in, combination with secondary, c. 4100. Hutton, Professor, evidence, 6744. grants, c. 4112. Industrial Training required by Trusts, c. 310, 325, 342, 357, 565, , relation to, c. 3860, 4070, 4096, 4114, 4278, 4312, 584,586,700, 706,990, 1014, 1015, 1018, 1717,1727, 1923, 4340,4349; "■ 43-47- 2850, 3276, 3395, 5262, 5331, 5348, 5380, 5382, 5392, Vacations (see Terms). 5410; a. 4, 5, 6, 7, 28, 56-62, 83. Church of England Grammar School, Parnell, Auckland (see Ingle, Mrs., evidence, 3728. Auckland). inglis, Mr. J., evidence, 4866. Cirencester Agricultural College (sec under Agricultural school). Inspection (ff Secondary Schools (see under _*). Civil Engineers, memorandum by E. Dobson, a. 85. Inspector of Schools, Auckland, evidence, 1798. , education of, &c, see Engineering. , Otago, evidence, 6374. Civil Service Examination, r. 14; p. 2 ; c. 945, 1565, 1574, 1589, -, Wellington, evidence, 5559. 1626, 1652, 1688, 2512, 2810, 3204, 4345, 5359, 5599, Invercargill High Schools (see Southland). 5919. Jackson, Mr. 11., evidence, 5435. Clark, Mr. W., evidence, 5808. Johnston, Mr. Justice, evidence, 4965. Colleges for women, (see Female education). Karamu, University Reserve at, c. 378 ; a. 3. Commissioner of Crown Lands, Auckland, evidence, 307, 2824. Kidd, Rev. R., evidence, 2786, 2823. Copland, Rev. Dr., evidence, 7898. Kinder, Rev. J., evidence, 1934. Corfe, Mr. C. C, evidence, 4224, 4938. Kirk, Professor, evidence, 5721. Coughtrey, Dr., evidence, 7497. Kissling, Mr. T., evidence, 2514. Cowie, Bishop, evidence, 391. Kohanga, Church of England Reserve at, c. 346, 583, 586,610; a. 4. Cowie, Mr. G., evidence, 7568. Kohimarama, Church of England Reserve at, c. 437, 612. Cox, Mr. S. S., evidence, 595. Law schools, education of law-students, See., r. 16; p. 2 ; c. 120, 162, Curtis, Mr. 0., evidence, 2929. 190, 208, 255, 282, 285, 517, 523, 528, 935, 961, 2018, 2020, Daniell, Mr. H. C, evidence, 3221. 2041, 2129, 2151, 2760-61, 2766, 3537,3699,4685,4965, De Zouche, Dr., evidence, 8044. 593, 6501, 7045 ; a. 21, 23, 25, 26, 87, 88, 89. District high schools, p. 1; c. 1879, 2707, 2708, 2725, 2729, 2738, Arts degree to be taken, r. 16 ;e. 191, 208, 285, 519, 936, 961, 3321, 4914, 4920, 5285, 5519, 6139, 6271, 6288, 6383. 2021, 2132, 4965, 5924, 7051. Dobson, Mr. E., memorandum as to examinations for surveyors Barristers and solicitors, respective status of, &c, c. 941, 961, and civil engineers, a. 85. 2022, 2135, 4965, 5915, 7051, 7066. Dunedin, seat of University of New Zealand (see under University Canterbury College lectures, p. 2 ; c. 3537, 3699 ; a. 26, 88. of New Zealand). Degrees, c. 120, 190, 208, 936, 2021, 2132, 2151, 4965, 7055. Edger, Rev. S., evidence, 2047, 2469. Establishment of law schools, steps taken towards, p. 2 ; c. 120, Education Board, Auckland, Chairman's evidence, 1032. 162, 3537, 3699, 5914, 7045 ; a. 21, 23, 25, 26, 87, 88, 89. ■ , Inspector's evidence, 1798. , policy with regard to, r. 16; c. 208, 230, 282, , Secretary's evidence, 2341. 285, 517, 935, 961, 2018, 2020, 2132, 2151, 2760-61, 2766, , Canterbury, Chairman's evidence, 4866. 4965, 5924, 6501. , Secretary's evidence, 3869. Examinations, r. 16; c. 162, 190, 211, 935, 961, 2021, 2131, , Nelson, Chairman's evidence, 2981. 2153, 4965, 5915, 7047.

H.—l.

r. = Report; p. = Proceedings; c. = Evidence; a. = Appendix. Law schoils, education of law-students, Sec. —continued. Nelson College —continued. Examinations, standard of, c. 162, 191, 211,935,961,2021, Buildings and apparatus, c. 2956, 3001, 3007, 3089, 3100, 2132,2153,4965,5915,7054. 3123,3142,315653.40. Law Practitioners Act, c. 221, 935, 2135, 2153, 4965, 5915, Civil Service examination, c. 5917. 7065. Classes, c. 2973, 3113, 3190; a. 40. Otago University lectures, p. 2 ; c. 7045. Curriculum, c. 859, 2922, 2969, 3017, 3020, 3032, 3105, 3117, Scholarships, c. 255, 282, 523, 4685. 3123, 3130; a. 40. Students, c. 311, 936, 2018, 2020, 2151, 2760-61 ; a. 23, 25. Endowments, c. 2946, 2958, 2991, 2998, 3002, 3010, 3077, Supreme Court rules, c. 935, 4965, 4969, 5915. 3223 ; a. 7, 41. University, relation ta, r. 16; c. 120, 162, 190, 208, 226, 282, Examinations, c. 2975, 3025, 3158. 52', 935, 2021, 2131, 2151, 4965, 5915, 7055 ;a. 89. ~, entrance, c. 2975, 298-, 3112. Lee, Mr. _?., evidence, 5559. , scholarship, c. 3062. Lectureships (see under University of New Zealand). Examiners, c. 3026, 3063, 3158 ; a. 41. Lusk, Mr. H. _*~ evidence, 1993. Expenditure, a. 41. Macdonald, Dr. W., evidence, 6149, 8024. Fees, c. 3034, 3036, 3248 ; a. 40. Macgregor, Professor, evidence, 7210. Female education in, c. 3192, 3320. Mackay, Mr. A., evidence, 3264. Foundation, c. 2951, 2982, 3008 ; a. 40. McKcrrow, Mr. J., evidence, 5838. Governing body, c. 2982, 3013, 3107. Macrae, Mr. F., evidence, 1250, 2253, 2478. Government grants, c. 2960. Maketu, Church of England Reserve at, c. 353. Gymnasium, c. 3128, 3130. Malet, Mr. F. de C, evidence, 4695. Headmaster's powers, &c, c. 3015, 3019, 3106, 3152. Mansford, Mr. W. H., evidence, 6535. Holidays, c. 3119, 3151. Marlborough Reserves, list of, a. 6. Hours, c. 3118, 3122. Marlborough Scholarships at A Telson College, c. 3036, 3065. Income, c. 2946, 2955, 3005, 3010, 3036, 3088, 3092, 3195; Maskell, Mr. W. __*"., evidence, 286. a. 41. Maunsell, 7 ._. Archdeacon, evidence, 2741. Inspection,/). 18, 19; c. 3030, 3162; a. 41 ; r. 8. Mayor of Auckland, evidence, 2526. Library, c. 3127, 3129; a. 41. Medical schools, education, cfc, p. 2, 33 ; c, 120, 206, 226, 255, Objects, c. 2922-26, 2969, 2985, 3089; a. 40. 282, 285, 519, 523, 528, 951, HII, 2018, 2020, 2040, 2403, Primary education in, c. 2926, 2972, 2985. 2760-61, 2766, 3492, 3537, 3692, 3835, 3837, 4408, 4432, Prizes, c. 3025, 3063, 3073, 3159; a. 40. 4588, 4757, 5041, 5065, 6501, 6598, 6612, 6744, 6831, 7258, Punishments, c. 3145, 3164. 7422, 7497, 7586, 7652, 8044; a. 9, 21, 23, 25, 26, 87, Religious instruction in, c. 3022, 3136. 88, 89. Scholars, c. 2974, 2986, 3048, 3074, 3144; a. 40. Mines, schools of, p. 2, 33 ;e. 208, 226, 228, 232, 285, 517, 518, ■ , age, c. 2974, 2986, 3111; a. 40. 951, 1226, 1242, 2020, 2760-61, 2766, 3537, 3811, 3839, , class of, c. 3021, 3150, 3170, 3247. 4365, 4383, 4394, 5951, 6501, 6609, 6911,6916,6927; a. from primary schools, 3169, 3177. 21-23, 26, 87, 88. , University, c. 3177, 3183, 3205, 3209; a. 41; r. 8. Auckland, establishment in, c. 1226, 1242, 2020, 2760, 2761. Scholarships, c. 2960, 3052, 3063, 3169, 3174, 3247, 5943; Canterbury, c. 3537, 4365, 4394; a. 26, 88. a. 40. Certificates and degrees, c. 232. , Education Board, c. 3964, 3024, 3031, 3052, 3064, Establishment, steps taken towards, c. 517, 951, 3811,4383, 3176. 6927. Science-teaching in, 3117, 3123, 3157, 3182; a. 41. , policy of, c. 208, 285, 2766, 5983-6006, 6008-6014, Site, c. 2991, 2998, 3001, 3009, 3080; a. 40. 6022, 6023, 6025-6027, 6029-6035. Staff, c. 3015, 3181; a. 40. European schools, c. 3839, 5954-5982. , appointment, c. 3015, 3107. Locality, c. 518, 6911, 6007. , experience and status, c. 3104, 3143, 3181,318 C; a. 40. Otago, c. 6501, 6609, 6916 ; a. 21-23, 87. , number, c. 3043, 3139, 3181 ; a. 40. University, relation to, c. 208, 226, 228, 285, 6016, 6022, 6024, , remuneration, c. 3023, 3034, 3045. 6025. Suitability, &c, c. 3020, 3032, 3246. Makau, Wesleyan Reserve at, c. 748. Terms, c. 315. Montgomery, Mr. W., evidence, 3474, 4990. Time-table, c. 3018; a. 40. Motueka, Nelson College Reserve at, c. 3002, 3052, 3244, 3250, Trust funds, endowments from, &c, c. 2946, 2958, 2987, 3267; a. 7. 3000, 3088, 3224; a. 43. Motueka, Nelson School Society Reserve at, c. 3244, 3445, 3464; University education in, c. 101, 2922, 2969, 2976, 3132, 3177, a. 7. 3181, 3205, 3209, 5943 ; a. 16-18, 41 ; r. 8. Motueka Native School and estate, p. 5, 18; c. 2825, 2932, 3244, University grants, c. 2976. 325°, 3264, 3328; a. 7, 61-62. University scholarships taken, &c, c. 3177, 3205 ; 0.16-18,41. Estate,/). 5, 18; c. 2825, 2932, 3244, 3250, 3264, 3348 ;a. 7, Vacations (see Terms). 61,62. I Nelson Education Reserves, p. 18, 19; c. 2825, 2863, 2929, School, p. 5, 18; c. 2843, 2932, 3276, 3328; a. 61-62. 2958, 2991, 3002, 3010, 3077, 3221, 3249, 3264, 3348, Murdoch, Mr. D. L., evidence, 2081. 33..8. 34'3> 3426, 3462; a, 7, 41, 61. Museums, p. 2, 17, 20, 33; c. 918, 1199, 3492, 3504, 3513,3537, Nelson Native Education Reserves (see Motueka School). 3608, 3691, 3700, 4214-15, 4220, 4223, 4313, 437. 4353. Nelson School Society,p. 5; c. 2965, 3228, 3426, 3462 ;a. 7. 4367, 4370, 4410, 4698, 4842, 5758,5781,5793,6022, 6764, Nelson Trust. Funds, c. 2938, 2987, 3088, 3221. 6772 ;a. 9, 21, 22, 24, 26, 27, 39, 54, 56, 87, 88. j Neic Zealand Institute, p. 2; c. 5740, 6022. Auckland, p. 17 ; c. 918, 1199, 5761. New Zealand University (see University). Canterbury Agricultural School, c. 3608. ! Normal Schools and Classes, p. 2, 16, 17, 31; c. 226,682, 701, Christchurch,*. 3492,3504,3513,3537,3691,3700,4314,4315, 705, 1051, 1087, 1190, 1203, 1800, 2183, 2186, 2707, 4220, 4223, 4313, 4317, 4353, 4370, 4410, 4698, 4842, ! 2733, 4503, 4869, 5046, 5243, 5559, 6247, 6293, 6380; 5760; «. 27, 88. «. 28. Generally, p. 2; c. 931, 1199, 4385, 5758, 5781, 6022. Auckland,/). 2, 16; c. 1051, 1087, 1190, 1203, 1800,2183, Otago,/). 33; c. 5768, 6764, 6772; a. 21, 32, 24, 87. 2186. Otago Boys' High School, a. 54. Christchurch,/). 2, 31 ; c. 1819, 1830, 4503, 4869. Otago Girls' High School, a. 56. Dunedin, p. 2, 31 ; c. 1819, 1830, 6247, 6293, 6380. Wellington, c. 5759, 5793. Generally, p. 2 ; c. 226, 1812, 1843, 2191, 3707,4537,4870, Wellington College,/). 30; a. 39. 5046, 5065, 6341. Napier Trust Schools, p. 3, 4, 5; a. 48, 49. Thames, p. 2; c. 1309, 1804, 181 1, 2733. Native industrial schools and education generally, p. 5, 17, 18, 36, Wellington, c. 5243, 5559. 33; c. 310, 392, 536, 662, 964, 1144, 1716, 1915, 2825, Wesley College, p. 17 ;e. 682, 701, 705 ;a. 28. 2932, 3223, 3249, 3264, 3328, 5260, 5326, 5808 ;a.l, 2, Opawa, Nelson College Reserve at, c. 3086, 3092 ; a. 6. 4-7, 28-31, 56-62, 83. O'Sullivan, Mr. R. J., evidence, 1795. Nautical school, c. 1227, 2760-61, 2766, 5556. Otago Boys' High School, p. 3, 5, 32 ; c. 119, 869, 5022, 6149, Nelson, Rev. C. M., evidence, 2554. 6165, 6262, 6277, 6515, 7406, 8024; a. 1, 2, 15, 16. Nelson Bishop's School, p. 3; c. 2884; a. 1, 2, 49. Affiliation, p. 32 ;e. 119, 869, 6157, 6195. Nelson College, p. 3, 4, 5, 7, 18, 19; c. 100, 859, 2922, 2924, Boarding, a. 53. 2926, 2946, 2968, 2981, 3041, 3102, 3221, 3246, 3320, Buildings, p. 32 ;e. 6164; a. 53. 5943; a. 1, 2, 7, 16-18, 40-43 ; r, 8. Classes, c. 8025, 8028 ; a. 51. Affiliation, p. 7 ; c. 100, 859, 2922, 2976, 3133, 3181. Commission, report of Committee of, p. 32. Boarding, c. 2956, 3033, 3049, 3122, 3166, 3193; a. 40. Curriculum, p. 32 ;e. 6181, 6196, 6516, 7406, 8028 ;a. 51.

H.—l.

r. = Report; p. = Proceedings; c. __ Evidence; a. _= Appendix. Otago Boys' High School— continue*. Otago University; r. generally; p. 5, 8, 9, 32, 33 ; c. 4, 62, 65, Endowments,/). 5; a. 15. 160, 239, 246, 264, 269, 284, 857, 869, 2506, 6155, 6239, Evening classes, c. 6210. 6303, 6332, 6356, 6421-7046, 7068, 7210, 7278, 7320, 7364, Examinations, c. 6200; a. 53. 7389, 74°6, 746, 7421, 7539, 7568, 7699, 7701, 7766-7837, , entrance, c. 6178 ; as. 51. 7844,7889,7902,7908,7999; 0.2,3,15,16-18,21-26,87. Examiners, a. 53. Affiliation, c. 160, 239, 246, 284, 6482, 6500, 6861, 7082, 7094, Expenditure, a. 54. 7142, 7160, 7331, 7548, 7561; a. 21, 87. Fees, a. 53. Borrowing powers, c. 6435, 6550, 6568, 6570. Foundation, c. 6154; a. 51. Buildings and equipment,/). 33; c. 6436, 64471/., 6525, 6538, Governing body, c. 5022. 6568, 6570, 7535, 7703, 7716, 7766; a. 22, 25, 87. Grants from Government, a. 54. Charter, c. 6495, 7095, 7125, 7147, 7164, 7551; o. 21, 24, Gymnasium, p. 32. 87-89. Holidays, c. 6180. Chancellor's powers, &c, c. 6592. Hours, c. 6179. Classes,;p. 33; c. 6938, 7240; o. 25. Income, o. 54. Commission, report of Committee of, p. 33. Inspection, c, 6202, 6277, 8038. Council, r. 11, 15; c. 6429, 6512, 6567, 6579, 6737, 6790, Laboratories, a. 54. 6839, 7°22, 7026, 7072, 7384, 7532, 7544, 7554; o. 21. Library, c. 6186 ; 0.54. —, professors' representation in, r. n; c. 6512, 6737, Museum, a. 54. 6840, 6878, 7029, 7284, 7544, 7550, 7555. Objects, a. 51. Curriculum,/). 33; c. 6674, 6746, 7252, 7283, 7322, 7331, Otago University, connection with, Stc, c. 869, 6155, 6211, 74°. 75°; «■ 21, 22, 23, 25,87 (see also under Lectures, 6515, 7406. and Time-table). Playground, p. 32; 0,53. Degrees, c. 6498,6506,6846, 7095, 7124, 7140, 7147, 7547, Prizes, c. 6206. 7551 ; a. 21, 87, 88. Punishments, c. 6208. Dormitories, c. 64471/., 6525. Rector's powers, &c.,e. 6154. Endowments, c. 246, 264, 269, 6435-36, 6611, 6773, 6822, Scholarships, c. 6156; a. 53. 7117, 7142, 7562; a. 3, 15, 21, 24, 87. , Education Board, c. 6201, 6262. Engineering, school of, see under. Scholars, a. 52. Evening classes and lectures,^). ; c. 6832. , age, c. 6177; o. 52. Examinations, c. 6523, 6674, 7017, 7250, 7562. from primary schools, c. 8024. Fees, c. 6335, 6940, 7281 ; a. 25. , number, a. 52. Finance, income, expenditure, &c, c. 2506, 6434, 6524, 6528, Science-teaching in, p. 32 ; c. 8030; a. 54. 6538, 6550, 6568, 6570, 6597, 6608, 6684, 6776, 6796, Site, c. 6164 ; a. 53. 6829, 7541 ; o. 24-25, 87. Suitability, &c, p. 32 ; c. 6516. Foundation, a. 21, 87. Staff, p. 32 ; c. 6149, 6165 ; a. 51. Government grants, c. 6527, 6800 ; o. 25, 87. ■ , appointment, c. 6154, 6171, 6174. High schools, connection with, p. 33; c. 869, 6155, 6239, , experience and status, p. 32 ; c. 6152, 6165 ; o. 51. 6515. , number, 0.51. Laboratories, p. 33 ; c. 6454, 6462, 6538, 7001, 7010, 7770; , remuneration, c. 6154, 6172 ; o. 51. o- 22. Terms, c. 6197, 8026. Law school, see under. Time-table, c. 8025 ; a. 52. Lectures, p. 33 ; c. 6617, 6669, 6744, 6832, 6934, 7210, 7240, University education in, c. 869, 6157, 6211, 6516; a. 16. 7281, 7586; a. 21, 87. University scholarships taken, &c, c. 61J7 ;a. 16. Library, c. 6527, 6597, 6726, 6799, 6806, 7535, 7539, 7626; University, relation to, c. 869, 6157, 6195. o. 22. Vacations (see Terms). Medical school, see under. rt. —. ,_, -rr- . - , , . ~ , . Mines, school of, .co under. Otago Girls' Sigh School, p. 3, 5, 32 ;_. 119, 869, 5022, 6162, Museum, see under. 6213, 6262, 6277, 6515 ; a. 1, 2, 54. Objects, fl. 21, 87. _Lri_ng,^6_3_;%.?6. 8 '" Presbyterian Church of Otago, connection with, &c, r. ,5; Buildings, p. ii; o. ,6. *• ** 'c' 6 =22> 723 M*4. 7734' 'B^S' 'S^S' I'M '"• 2I > Classes, o. 54-5.V rtfa-Vfe*.' M" Commission, report of Committee of, p. 33. -n c'■ 1 v j . . .-, . . , , ,> r . Proiessonal Board, r. 12; c. 6451, 7556; o. 21. Curriculum p. 32; c. 6225, 65.6; _. 54. Professors' residences, p. 33 {e. 6 44 7_, 6465, 651,, 6538, Endowments,/.. 5. 77,6,7770.0.87. 5' 3 " , Examinations, c. 6256; a. 56. c v 1 1 • . _• r o - entrance c 6-17- o U Scholarships, c. 6514, 6521; o. 22, 25, 26, 87. Examiners, a. *$• Science-teaching in,*. 33; ez 6454, 6462, 66,7, 6744, 6934 Expenditure, a. 56. Qv 73°*; °* 2I ~22 ' 2S'B7' eealso and Staff.) Fxtras c 62-- Sltc' c* 6473, 7726; "' 22 > 2->' 8?* Fees V 622J- a.6 Slte and bmldmSs> sale of tormcr, c. 6436, 6443, 6473, 6551, Governing hn.lv V tO2-» 6573, 7 °36' 7 °B °' 7s6B' 7701' 7794 ;"' 2 = - Uoveinmg body, c. 5022. Staff e> g- fi 6 fj6 6fi Income, o. 56. v--^ •'" . - 'i. . . .- <, "/44> Insertion . _■_»_! _-, 3 . 6»». 6W4. 7 20, 7423, 7586, 7963; a. 21, :6, 87. I.brarv «=6 3 ?'' Stude,,ts ' '* 8» * 33■ '• 2506, 6303, 6332, 6356, 6516, 6521, Museum. _ ,6. 6**« 6"7' 6«93, 662 °' 6J 6 °' 6938' J24°' 726 Obi-cts _ si 72Sl' 7423' 75b7: °* 17' 18, '* 2B' 87* /.! t. '■ ■_ _• -~ o n r , . Suitability, &c, c. 2506, 7320. Otago University, connection with, &C, c. 869, 6239, 6515 ;a. Teachers of primary schools, classes for, p. 33 ; c. 6941, 7015. „ -P*- Terms, c. 7016 ; o. 25. Pupils, age, a. 6218; fl. 5;. >i- . 1 \ H ' class cf o sj. lime-table, jp. 33; o. 23. ' . '__ S t.i ,- University colleges, relation to, r. 9, 10; c. 6494, 6502, 684.. from primary schools, a. 6:2(1. _ o -,„._,< 3 ' "°lS' L_' _ 7'48,7*2^,769(1. , number, c. 6216; o. 55. n • .. . <- ' i*_Li j __..____ , . . - . .. '. ,00 University 01 New Zealand, relation to, r. a, 10, 11 ;e. 62. 6 . Science-teaching in,/. 32. 239, 246, 264, 269, 254, 6453, 6840, 689., 7.29, 7142 Scholar-taps, c. 6233, 6262; «. 56. » >. fi *"» + + ; *' » ' * , Education Board, c. 62^0. I 7 J* " , o„ °'a "J ' Staff^.32; ,62,3,62.9; 0.55. — ' ' ;' , amalgamation with,y. 8, 9; a. 4, —, appointment, c. 6220. 8,6424,7089. "*" * , experience and status, /,. 32 ;e. 6213. Vacations (L Terms). 1 , numocr, c. 6210; a. 55. rt_ __.•' _-..-_ ci 1 __!_-< r '- J J * 0/0/.'! JSative School estate, p. c; c. 5326, S?KO, s-"sc, sjqo , remuneration, a. ;c. . o . it. 3J_o> _jy". Suitability &c « 3- ■ a 6-16 539 ' •,4 ' 541S ;"* '6a r r V ' ' * " " Otawhao, (Puniu), Church of England Reserve at, c. 342, 3.0, !07, lerms, c. 6227. <- . _i ini(*—("*_ jlf* rt* *■_ ,- _■ ' ; V'. 3' , Palmerston, Wellington College Reserve at, c. 5448, 54.8, 5477; vacations (see terms). ( • ota"i ati 1 > Olago Presbyterian Church Endowment, College, Sfc, p. 2, 8, 15, Paraekaretu, Wellington College Reserve at, c. 5459; o. 6. 21, 32 ;e. 7213, 7364, 7734, 7838-8023; a. 2, 15, 21, 23, Parnell Church of England Grammar School (see Auckland). 25. 87, 93- Patea, University Reserve at, c. 205 ; a. 3, 5.

r. — Report; p. = Proceedings ; c. = Evidence ; a. = Appendix, Paterson, Rev. J., evidence, 6036. Scholarships, Education Board, Wellington, c. 5176, 5257, 5584, Peacock, Mr.2., evidence, 2526. 6125. Peat, Mr. D., evidence, 5260. , Wanganui, c. 5588. Pedagogy, Chair of c. 226, 1847, 5046. to England, c. 255, 1121, 4685, 7453, 7644, 7684. Pepepe, Church if England Reserve at, c. 350, 603; as. 4. , primary, c. 472, 900, 1243, '499. 19°. 2707, 2712, Petrie, Mr. D., evidence, 6374. 3169, 3765,' 3930, 3936, 4820, 4907, 4917, 5177, 6087, 6121. Pharazyn, Hon. C. J., evidence, 5243. , professional and technical, viz., — Phillips, Mr. G. N., evidence, 2717. Agricultural, c. 4171, 4499. Philson, Dr. T. __"., evidence, 2403. Medical, c. 523, 1121, 4685, 7453, 7644, 7684. Pollock, Mr. _?., evidence, 3041. Science, c. 5992, 6032, 6035. * Porirua Native School, estate, cfc, /). 5; c. 3290, 5387, 5409 :a. Teachers', c. 3961, 4548, 4885, 5565, 6337. 6,60. , University, c. 22, 150, 252, 255, 282, 298, 476, 522, Poverty Bay Native School, estate, §c, p. 4 ; 0.4, 57. 901,1121,1622,1675,2254, 2256, 2268,2503,2707,2712, BoweU, Dr. Ll., evidence, 4757. 3178, 3205, 32,8, 3860, 4096, 4098, 4324, 4327,4331,4333, Prime, Mr. F. L., evidence, 1915. 4349, 4685, 4710, 4813, 4820, 4949, 5198, 6,21,6521, 7,09, Professional and technical schools, education, c\'c. (generally), p. 2, 7185, 7453, 7644, 7684. 7, 29 ; c. 226, 285, 5,7, 911, 951, 11,1, 1125, 1187, 1220, (For the scholarships at particular schools, &c, see under each). 1225, 1242, 1739, 1752, 1800, 1911, 2020, 2395, 2545, Science, education in, Sec, generally, r. 14; p. 3, 29; c. ,20, 158, 255', 27°7. 2714. 2734, 2760-61, 2766, 3504,3526,3700, 508, 537, 951, 1237, 2545, 2551, 3707, 2716,2761,2766, 3791.3840,3862,4171,4353,4792,5535,5721,5838,5951, 3700, 3791, 3840,3860,4792,5721,7290-7311. (Seealso 6501,6744,6893, 6905, 6934, 7290, 7454, 7644, 7699; a, Professional, and Technical Education). 9,21-27, 85-88 ; r. 14. (For particular branches of this subject, , degrees in, r. ,4; c. 120, ,58,3862,4792. as, agricultural schools, schools of art and design, the in primary schools, 2545, 255,, 2707, 27,6, 3844, 3848. Civil Service examinations, evening classes, law schools, Scott, Professor, evidence, 6612. medical schools, school of mines, museums, nautical Secondary Education Reserves, Auckland, c. 381, 2371. schools, the New Zealand Institute, normal schools, theo- , Canterbury, c. 3656, 3677. logical colleges, &c, see under each.) Secondary schools and education generally, r. 4, 7, 8, 9, 14 ; Pryde, Mr. P. <_~ evidence, 6243. p. 3, 7, 22; c. 94, 97, 233, 283, 381, 477, 482, 5,9, 656, Puniu, Native Reserve at, c. 597, 604 ; fl. 4. 823, 843, 858, 869, 887, 1091, 1097, 1435, 1463, 1498, Rangiaohia, Roman Catholic Reserve at, c. 365, 965, 1023, 1026; 1622, 1632, 1651, 1653, 1689, 1879, 2001, 2055, 2256, «-5- 2527, 2551, 3567, 2592, 2596, 2612, 2639, 2685, 2690^ Rangitumau, Wellington College Reserve at, c. 5459 ; 0.6. 2706-7, 2726, 2731, 2740, 2747, 2753, 3789, 2809,2823, Reserves for Education, a. 3-15. (See also under the several en- 2923, 3961, 3171, 3180, 3313, 3552, 3712,3765, 3860,3942, dowed institutions.) 3945, 4'oo, 4,20, 4139, 4304, 4349, 4705,4710, 4808, 4833, Reynolds, Hon. lU. 11., evidence, 7838. 4950, 4990, 5019, 5035, 5045, 5055, 5135, 5,79, 5241, 5285, Rice, Mr. V. E., evidence, 234,. 5372, 5382, 5427, 5506, 5521, 5529, 5594, 5942, 6044, 6121, Richmond, Mr. Justice, evidence, 5913. 6162, 6204, 6238, 6382, 650,, 6853, 6869, 6883, 7290, 7323, Riwaka, Nelson College Reserve at, c. 2949, 3004, 3082, 3091, 7355. 740', 8032, 8038; o. 1, 2, 4-15, 16-18, 32-56. 3099. Aid to, endowments, &c, c. 465, 519, 843, 1091, 1103, 1689, Robertson, Mr. C. A., evidence, 2676. 2707, 2823, 4990, 5,59, 524,, 5293, 5297, 5380, 5385, Rolleston, Mr. It., evidence, 5041. 55°9> 6062, 6130; o. 2, 4. Roman Catholic Educational Estates, — District high schools, see under. Auckland,/?. 5, 17, ;e. 357, 375, 964, 1716, 2818 ;o. 2, Girls' high schools (see under Female Education). 5, 56. Governing bodies, c. 4834, 5000, 5019. Wellington,/?. 5 ; o. 2, 6, 61. Inspection and examination, o. 8; p. 22; c. 283, 477, 482, Rotorua, Church of England Reserve at, c. 351, 606 ; fl. 4. 656, 823, 1463, 165,, ,653, 2596, 2707, 3945,4,20, 4304, Salmond, Professor, evidence, 7364. 43,2, 5035, 5055, 5170, 5205, 5527, 5529, 6202,6234, St. John's College, p. 5, 8, 16; c. 403, 441, 455,470,613,654, 6338,8038; a. 1. 66,, 1140, ,166, 1218, 1392, ,526, 1587, ,934, 1975, 1987, Primary education, connection with, &c, c. 1097, 1107, 2297, 2446; a. 1, 2, 16, 28; r. 8. 1494, 1902, 2003, 2317, 2527, 2706-7, 2740, 2803,2924, Affiliation, c. 4,3, 447, 455, 661, ,143, 1176, 1526, 1936. 4308, 4321, 5175, 5289, 5372, 6078, 6121, 6,25, 6382. Boarding,/). 16; c. 408, 616, 1172, 1959; fl. 28. University education, combination with, r. 9; c. 97, 233, 28^, Buildings,/). 17; c. 1150, 1975. 876,887, 1238, 1439, 1632, 200,, 2011,2055,2065,2567, Commission, report of Committee of, p. 16. 26,2, 2639, 2685, 2690, 2726, 2731, 2732, 2747, 2753, Curriculum, c. 4C5, 441, 624, 635, 1142, 1145, "66, 1174, 2790, 2923, 4,00, 4705, 4833, 5019, 5,35, 5428, 5506, 1181, 1939, 1944, 196, ; a. 28. 6052, 6853, 7323, 7358, 740,. Estate, p. 16 ;c. 426, 6,4, 625, 1140, 1158, 1588,1943 , a. 28. , relation to, r. 9; c. 94, 97, 233, 283, 482, 499, 657, Examinations, c. 654, 1,82. 863, 876, 887, 1466, 1655, 2055, 2255, 2809, 410,, 41,2, Examiners, c. 619, 655, 1587. 4314, 4324, 4349, 4710, 4813, 5045, 5134, 5427, 5942, Fees,/). 16 ; c. 442, 1,48. 6501, 6854, 6883, 7290, 7403 ; o. 16, 32. Governing- body, c. 403, 419, 613, 627, 1145, "85, 1987; colleges, relation to, c. 858, 864, 869, 887, 1439,1622, 0.28. * 1689, 279,, 4808,4950, 4990, 5,89, 6515, 6853, 6870. Government grants, c. 1144, 1,52. 1 Sloman, Mr. J. F., evidence, 2601. Income, c. 4,3, 4,8, 6,5. Smith, Mr. E., evidence, 7874. Objects, c. 405, 621, ~56, 1168, 1987 ; o. 28. Southland Boys' and Girls' High Schools (Invercargill), p. 3, 5 j Scholars,/). 16; c. 405, 408, 444, 617, 1166, 1940; r. 8. a. 2, 15, 56. Scholarships,/). 16; c. 405, 470, 615, 625, 1158, 1183, 1218, Southland University Reserves, c. 247, 265, 269; a. 15, 21. 1588, ,989. Stevens, Mr. E. C. J., evidence, 4415. Science-teaching in, c. 1953. Stout, Mr. JS., evidence, 7999. Staff; number, powers, remuneration, &c, c. 407, 4,0, 441, Stuart, Rev. Dr., evidence, 6421, 770,. 6,5,619,636, 1,47, 1934, 1947. Surveyors, education, examination, _re, c. 466, 2760-61, 5535, Theological work, &c, c, 405, 44,, 444, 621, 625, 1142, 1156, 5838. 1181, 1218, 1939, ,961, 1987 ; a, 28. Surveyors, memorandum by E. Dobson, o. 85. (See also under Trust, o. 28 ; c. 12,9. Engineering, and Professional and Technical Education). University education in, p. 17; c. 420, 442, 618, 654, 66,, Sitter, Bishop, evidence, 2825. 1,43, ,392, 1944, 1948, 196,, 2297, 2446 ; 0.16,28; »'.B. Tancred, Mr. H.J., evidence, 1, 92, 203. St. Mary's Roman Catholic Educational Estate (Auckland), p. 5, Taupiri, University Reserve at, c. 378, 2042, 2044; a. 3* '7,33! e-357. 964, "44, '76, 28,8 ; f1.5,56. Tauranga, University Reserve at, c. 390. St. Stephen's Native School (Taurarua), p. 5, ,7; c. 310, 392, Taurarua Native School (same as St. Stephen's, under which see). 536,1144,2817; 0.4,57. Teachers of primary schools, c. 226, 1847, 2157, 2191, 2204, Scholarships, Education Board, Auckland, c. 469, 798, 845, 1243, 22,0, 2399, 2707, 2823, 3791, 3795, 3809, 3843, 3848, 1469, 1492, 1499, 1877, 190,, 2223, 2712. 3993,4006,4016,4535,4553, 4566,4883, 50 4 6,-5244, 5565, , Canterbury, c. 3761, 3924, 4310, 5571, 6253, 6306, 6367, 6419, 6941, 7015, 7242, 7274. 4321, 4334, 435', 4820, 49°6, 4950, 499°, 4997- Te Aute Native School, p.c,; c. 5385, 5398, 5409-10; fl. 2, 5, 60. ■ , Marlborough, c. 3036, 3065, 3067, Technical schools, Sec. (see under Professional, and University 3247. Colleges). , Nelson, c. 2960,3031, 3052, 3064. Te Ngae Reserve (see Rotorua). ■ ■ , Otago, c. 6301, 6230, 6260, 6359, Thames Boys' and Girls' High Schools, p. 3, 5, 14 ; c, 2720, 2720, 6376. 2740, 3756 J «. 3, 5.

H.—l

r. = Report; p. __ Proceedings ; c. = Evidence; a. = Appendix. Thames normal classes (see under Normal Schools). also under Secondary education, University colleges, and Theological Colleges: Christ's College (Canterbury), Bishopdale under the several affiliated institutions, for other particulars College (Nelson), Otago Presbyterian College, St. John's as to the working and operations of the University.) and Wesley Colleges (Auckland) (under which see). Ad eundem graduates, r. 11 ; p. 29, 30; c. 33, 41, 67, 489, Three King's Wesleyan Estate (see Wesley College). 954, 1699, 1983, 2259, 2598, 3200, 3965, 4863. Timaru High School, p. 3,5; c. 3658, 3662,3679,4990,4995, Affiliation, see under. 5047 ; ff. 2, 8, 9. Calendar, c. 74, 196. Tisdall, Mr. W St. C. T., evidence, 2446. Chancellor's powers, duties, &c, c. 34, 43, 82,85, 113, 196,487. Tole, Mr. D. A., evidence, 307, 2824. Civil Service examination, conduct of, see under. Tole, Mr. J. A., evidence, 1716. Constitution, &c.: r. generally; p. 5-10, 26-30; c. 4-285, Tosswill, Mr. J. N, evidence, 4142. 486,495, 759, 856-910, 955, 11,2, ,237, 1446, ,690, Turn bull, Dr., evidence, 4588. 1969, 1978, 2019, 2047, 2069, 2253, 2502, 2570, 2600, University Colleges, r. 9-16; p. 26-30; c. 233, 242, 259, 28,, 2609, 264,, 2685, 2744, 2760-61, 2803, 2902, 2914, 28s, 377. 39°. 496, 856-9,0,931,934,937,955,1112, 1,15, 3180, 32,9, 3703, 3860, 3871, 3950, 41,9, 4339, 44,4, 1220, 1229, 1435, ,619, 1632, 1682, 1688, 1697, ,712, 1843, 4468, 4689, 4704, 4802, 4843, 4856, 4988, 5009, 5045, 1847, 1980,2001, 2010, 2016, 2027, 2038, 2042,2055,2065, 5109, 5194, 5204, 5420, 5940, 6110, 6501, 6840, 6845, 2069,2073,2082,2147,2335,2402,2434,2443,2502,2505, 6865, 6869, 7033, 7083-7208, 7290, 7312, 7348, 7400, 2530, 2537, 2543, 2567, 2612, 2641, 2685, 2690, 2722, 2726, 7553, 7562, 7699. 2747, 3753, 2760-61, 2766, 2780, 2789, 2796, 2803, 2823, Convocation, r. 12 ;e. 4,, 69, 489, 2807, 4865, 7043. 2902,29,4,3221,3703,3860,3865,3873,3890,41,9,44,4, ' Degrees : standard, &c, c. 120, ,60, 178, 186, 191,507,950, 4689,4704,4802,4843,4989,5009,5019,5045,5062,5,09, 1703, 1969, 2059, 2062, 2313, 2464, 2906, 32,2, 3860, 5,88,5420,5506,5940,6040,6050,6,16,6130,6501,6530, 3887, 39,8, 4657, 4719, 4794, 686,, 7051, 7243, 7300, 6839, 6873, 69,1, 6927, 7033, 7039, 7131, 7133, 7148, 7,52, 7326, 7363, 7562. 7284, 7301, 7319, 7336, 7400, 755,, 7561, 7699. in science (see under Science). Auckland, college at, r. 9, 10, 12, 15 ;p.27 ; c. 377, 390, Dunedin as seat of, r. 11 ;p.38 ; c. 12, 14, 6426. 496,857,931,934, 1220, 1435, 1619, 1632, 1682, 1843, Endowments, .-. 10; c. 27, 205, 345, 361, 377, 390, 2042; 1847, 1980, 2001, 2010, 20,6, 2042, 2055, 2065, 2073, o. 3, 4, 5, 6, 15. 2082, 21,4, 2147, 2335, 2402, 2434, 2443, 2505, 2530, Examinations, r. 13; p. 28; c. 37, 55, 66, 78, 160, 167, 173, 2537, 2544, 2567, 2612, 2641, 2685, 2690, 2726, 2747, ,79, 204, 211, 236, 384, 492, 507, 950, 1969, 2059, 2267, 2753, 2760-61, 2789, 2796, 2807, 3880, 4802, 4844, 2269, 23,7, 2464, 2479, 2503, 2504, 2744, 28,0, 2906, 5050, 5948, 6,,8, 6501, 6900, 7033, 7,56, 7699. 3*79, 3'Bo, 3860, 3906, 4324, 4796, 48,8, 4847, 4852, Canterbury College, r. 9, 10, 12, ,4, ,5 ; p. 27; c. 3705, 3880, 50,0, 5800, 6209, 6487, 6489, 6905, 6913, 7262, 7274, 4802, 4844, 5062, 5948, 6501, 6900, 7033, 7699. 7290, 7326, 7336, 7562 ; o. 16, 20, 63-83. Constitution, generally, p. 27; c. 1439, '98°> 2069, 2570, Examiners, r. 13 ;p.28 ; c. 34, 77, 82, 129, 166, 168, 178, 2804, 3705, 3716, 4414, 4802, 4844, 5062, 5948, 6118, 199, 203, 285, 483, 513, 1709, 3331, 2503, 32,5, 3860, 6501, 6507, 6840, 7033, 7699. 3889, 3911, 4120, 4414, 4802, 4847, 5010, 5060, 6489, Councils, r. 11 ; c. 4858, 6840, 7288. 6903, 7029, 7035, 7271, 7303, 7324, 7336 ; o*l9, 63-83. • , professors' representation in, r. ~; c. 4858, 6840, Finance: income, expenditure, &c., r. ,3; p. 28; c. 198, 248, 6878, 7288. 270, 273; o. ,8, 19. Endowments, &c, r. 9, 10; c. 2042, 2770, 2780, 279,, 2796, Law examinations, &c. (see under Law). 543°, 5509, 6050, 6846, 712,, 7135. Lectures and lecturers, «. 497, 528, 927, 2040, 41,9, 5537, Functionsand powers, r. 10; c. 4849, 4859, 6845. 589', 5999, 60,5, 6035. (See also under New Zealand Number, r. ,0 ; c. 3715, 3880, 44,4, 4802, 4844, 5424, 5948, Institute, and Professional schools). 6501,6845, 6882, 6900, 7033, 7,21, 7133, 7149,7156, Matriculation, r. 18; c. 491, 1624, 1693, 2266, 2307,2479, 7699. 2811, 3902, 2904, 3204, 3211, 3861, 3917, 4029, 4325, Objects, r. 10; c. 866,6505. 5200, 52,6, 5432. Otago University, r. 9, ,0, 12, 14, 15 ;p.27 ; c. 3705, 3880, Meeting, place of, r. 1, ;p.28 ; c. 70, 289, 2262, 3203. 4802, 4844, 5948, 650,, 6840, 6900, 7033, 7699. Otago University, amalgamation with, see under. Professional and technical schools, connection with, r. 14; p. Registrars' powers, duties, &c, c. 38, 2503. 29; c. 385, 937, 1843, 1847, 2027, 2760-6,, 2766, 2823, Secondary education, connection with, see under. 650,, 6893, 6927, 7149, 7301, 7699. schools, inspection of, see under. Staff, r. 9, 13; c. 875, 2780, 3707, 3719, 4859, 6056, 6851, Scholarships, see under. 6893. ' Senate,)-. 12; p. 27; c. 30, 41, 276, 290, 487, 754, 2257, Students, a. 1221, 1623, 1682, 2016, 204,, 2046, 2073, 2083, 2478, 2503, 2905, 3199, 3885, 44,4, 4691, 4707, 4802, 2149, 2444, 2505, 2537, 2569, 26,2, 2722, 2760, 2796, 4848, 4856, 4860, 5010, 5013, 5045, 50590, 5063, 5112, 5,89, 5426, 5510, 5942, 6053. 6,12, 6119, 6530, 6874, 6891, 7039, 7285, 7563. Secondary schools, relation to, c. 233, 858, 1439, '619, 1632, Students, non-resident, r. 13; p. 27; c. 106, 113, 5,5, 955, 1688, 1697, 200,, 2055, 2065, 2531, 2539, 2567, 2612, 1448, 2070, 2332, 2743, 2902, 2904, 2914, '3216, 3720, 264,, 2685, 2726, 3712, 4706, 50,9, 5025, 5045, 5047, 5202, 5208, 5947,6896. 5052, 5428, 5506, 6052, 6853. University colleges, see under. University of New Zealand, relation to, r. 9, 10 ; c. 866, 1446, education, combination with secondary (see under 1697, 1982, 2069, 2573, 2804, 2823, 3705, 3881, 4140, Secondary education). 4144, 4691, 4707, 4802, 4845, 5062, 5112, 5948, 6119, University of Otago (see Otago). 6502, 6530, 6840, 6845, 6869, 7033, 7039, 7153, 7157, Veel, Mr. J. C. C, evidence, 3869. 7288, 7699. j Yon Haast, Professor J., evidence, 4353. Wellington, college at, .. 9, 10, 12, 15 ; p. 27 ; c. 3880,4802, 1 Waiharakeke, Wesleyan reserve at, c. 332, 747 ; a. 4. 5050, 5188, 5217, 5426, 5508, 5948, 6040, 6050, 6118, ! Wairarapa Native school estate, p. t,; c. 5399 ; 0.6,60. 650,, 6900, 7033, 7699. \ Wanganui Collegiate or Industrial School, p. 3, 5 ; c. 5260, University of New Zealand; vide report generally; p. 5-10, 26-32 j 5331 ; a. 6, 58. c. 1-306, 377, 390, 413, 420, 422, 434, 447, 449, 476, 482, Eigh School, p. 5 ; c. 5291 ; a. 6. 618, 654, 661, 672, 686, 753, 849, 856, 915, 927, 935, 950, Whakarewa, Church of England reserve at, c. 2827. 954, 1105, 11,2, 1,43, 1176, 1220, 1233, 1346, 1373, 1384, Whakatane, University reserve at, c. 378. 1435, '446, 1466, 15,5, 15 25, 1574, 1619, 1653, ,674, 1680, Wellington art school (see under Art). 1690, 1843, ,936, ,945, 1969, 1978, 2001, 2010, 2016, 2025, , Bishop of, evidence, 5326. 2047, 2082, 2,31, 2205, 2209, 2235, 2253, 2399, 2434, 2443, Church of England reserves, /). 5 ; c. 5327, 5387 ; o. 6. 2446,2469,2478,2530,2537,2543,2567,2593,2597,2609, College, r. 8, 14; p. 3, 5, 7, ,9; c. ,00, 859, 5,14, 2639, 2685, 2690, 2707, 2722, 2726, 2731, 2741, 2789, 2796, 5217, 5435, 5586, 5721, 5736, 6036, 6125, 6144; o. 1, 2, 6, 2803, 2823, 2874, 2902, 2976, 3132, 3,62,3177,3199,3483, 16-18, 36-40, 90-93. 3548, 3552, 357. 3703. 3783, 3792.3860,3871,3943,396,, Affiliation,/). 7; c. ,00, 859, 5,34, 5136. 4006, 4029, 4070, 4096, 41,2,4,19,4190,42,2, 4278, Boarding, c. 5126, 5145, 515,, 5162, 5480, 55,3, 5523, 6104; 4j C ~ 43,2, 4324, 4339, 4348, 436,, 4406, 4414, 4431,4468, o. 36, 38. 4598,4657,4685,4689,4704,4780,4792,4802,4813,4833, Buildings and apparatus,/). 20; c. 5,45, 5148, 5157, 5166, 4843, 4885, 4964, 4965, 4988, 5009, 5019, 503,, 5035, 5045, 5478, 5492, 5527, 6056, 6102, 6,08; o. 36, 39, 40. 5109, 5,34, 5,82, 5194, 5420, 5503,5520,5532, 5537,5800, Classes,/). ,9, 20, 2, ;e. 5,18, 5139, 5179, 5725; o. 36-37. 5891, 59,4, 5940, 5999, 6015, 6035, 6040, 6050, 61 10, 6121, Commission, report of Committee of, p. 19. 6157,6195,6209,6239,6373,6424,6482,6501,6521,6530, Curriculum,/). ,9, 20; a. 859, 5,28, 5136, 5186, 5442, 5499, 6593, 6840, 6845, 6922, 7033, 7039, 7051, 7082, 7242, 7252, 5503, 5520, 5723 ; o. 36-37, 90-93. 7259, 7262, 7284, 73,2, 7363, 7399, 74,5, 7454, 7548, 7553, Endowments, p. 5; c, 5,54, 5443, 5492, 5509, 6043, 6050, 7561, 7644, 7684, 7699; a. 3, 4, 5, 6, 15, 16, 21,633. (See \ 6062, 6098, 6104, 0107; o. 6, 36.

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r. = Report; p. = Proceedings; c. = Evidence; a. = Appendix. Wellington College —continued. Wellington College —continued. Examinations, c. 5123, 5,77, 5522, 5529; o. 37-38. Science-teaching in, p. 20, 21 ; c. 51,8, 5140, 5721, 6,04; Examiners, c. 5,70; o. 38-39. <*• 36, 37, 39, 40. Evening classes, p. 20 ;e. 5 154, 5,82, 5737 ;a. 36, 39, 90. site > <"• 52 25> 546', 55" !«■ 36, 39Fees, c. 5,54, 5161, 5218, 5235, 5488, 6047 ; a. 38. Staff, r. 14; P- '9, 20, 21 ; c. 51,6, 5130, 5,40, 5183, 5186, Female education in, r. ,4; /). 20 ;e. 5230, 5736, 6,44, 6148 ; 5 27, 5721> 6059 ;a. 36, 90. o. 90-93. Suitability, &c, c. 5520, 6040. Finance: income, expenditure. &c, c. 5,5,, 5,54, 5,66, 5218, if rmS' ?', 4°' 5452, 5478, 5493, 6040, 60;6, 6,02 ; o. 36, 39, 4°. T'me-table, a. 55°' ; «. 38, 90-93- -, . V University education in, r. 8.; j». 19, 20 ; a. 101, inc. 5,82, Foundation a. 5440; 0.36. 5,8 4 , 5 27, 544°, 544 2, 55°3, 5520,6040, 6050 ; o.i 6-,8, Governing boay, c. 5495 ;o. 36. 38 _ 3Q) 40( go Government grants, c. 5,54, 5159, 5440, 5478, 6097, 6104, . grants, a. 6,04 ; a. 36. 0100. Wellington Education Board, Chairman's evidence, 524:5. Headmaster's evidence, 5114. _ Secr etary and Inspector's evidence, powers, duties, &c, p. 19, 20; c. 51,8, 5497, 5524; s -. g . "■.3"- . . -,scholarships (see under Scholarships). Inspection, a. 552,, 5529; fl. 38. Reserves, a. 6 (and see under the several Inspector-General of Schools, report of, p. 20. endowed institutions). Library, a. 5168; o. 39. Girh , High &Aoo j_ r , 4 . g 6 _ 4 __ Museum, p. 20 ; a. 39. > University College for (see University colleges). Objects,?. 20, 21 ;e. 859, 5440, 5442, 5492, 5506, 6040, 6050, Weslev College, r. 8;p.5,7, ,7 ; c. 325, 662, 1,44, 1915, 25,4, 6062- 2813, 58,4, 5833 ; a. 1, 2, 4, 6, 28-3,, 83-85. Playgrounds, c. 5466. Wesleyan Educational Estate, Wellington, p. 5 ; c. 5808 ; fl. 2, Prizes, c. 5,72, 5529; o. 38. 6, 60, 83. Punishments, c. 5174, 5502. Model Trust Deed, operation of, &o, p. 18; c. 709, Scholars, r. 8; p. ,9, 20, 2,; a. 5,23, 5,25, 5142, 5,75, 5,82, 717, 749, ,920, 25,4; «. 28,83. (&e also under Wesley 5184, 52,8, 5226, 5489, 5510, 5513, 6042 ; o. 16-18, 37, College, and under Wesleyan estate, Wellington). 39. 90. Whitaker, Mr. F., evidence, 2129. Scholarships, c. 5175, 5178, 5180; o. 38-39. Williams, Mr. Justice, evidence, 7024. Scholarships, Education Board, c. 5176, 5586,6125. . Wilson, Mr. __"., evidence, 5114. 1

ERRATA ET CORRIGENDA. Minutes of Proceedings— Page 27. Paragraph ,5, /"or "ayes" read " noes," and for "noes" read "ayes." Minutes of Evidence — Page 40. In foot-note, for the initials "J.G." read "T.8.G." „ ,01. For "Mr. F. A. Whitaker" read "Mr. F. Whitaker." Appendix— Page 7. Secondary education reserves \et,for " £8,689 " read " £2,689," and,/.. " £556 14s. 2d." read "£173 2S. lid."" „ 15. Runs in Otago, for " £1,955 14s. id." read "£2,755 '4s- Ic*-" „ 26. For " A. —Canterbury College," &c, read " B. —Canterbury College," &c. „ 52. Subjects of study, Otago Boys' High School, Class 11., for "Greek" read "French."

By Authority : G-eobge Didsbuet, Government Printer, Wellington.—lB79. Price 10. .j

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REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION APPOINTED BY HIS EXCELLENCY TO INQUIRE INTO AND REPORT UPON THE OPERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND AND ITS RELATIONS TO THE SECONDARY SCHOOLS OF THE COLONY: TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1879 Session I, H-01

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REPORT OF THE ROYAL COMMISSION APPOINTED BY HIS EXCELLENCY TO INQUIRE INTO AND REPORT UPON THE OPERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NEW ZEALAND AND ITS RELATIONS TO THE SECONDARY SCHOOLS OF THE COLONY: TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF PROCEEDINGS, MINUTES OF EVIDENCE, AND APPENDIX. Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1879 Session I, H-01

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