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■ ' 1886. NEW ZEALAND.

LEGISLATIVE EXPENDITURE COMMITTEE (REPORT OF THE), TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE AND APPENDIX.

Brought up 3rd August, 1886, and ordered to be printed.

ORDERS OF REFERENCE. Extracts from the, Journals of the House of Representatives. Wednesday, the 9th Day of June, 1886. Ordered, " That a Committee be appointed to consider and report what retrenchment may be made in the expenditure connected with the Legislature. The Committee to consist of the Hon. the Premier, Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Garrick, Mr. Barron, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Levestam, Mr. T.Thompson, Mr. Brown, and the mover; with power to call'for persons and papers; four to form a quorum ;to report in three weeks." — (Mr. O'Conor.) Wednesday, the 30th Day of June, 1886. Ordered, " That the Legislative Expenditure Committee have leave to postpone bringing up their report for a fortnight."— (Mr.. o'Conor.)

REPORT. Your Committee, to whom was referred the inquiry into the expenditure connected with the Legislature of the colony, have the honour to report that they have not only taken evidence and obtained returns and. other information connected with both branches of the Legislature of the colony, but have inquired into the working and expenditure of the legislative bodies of other countries and colonies, which evidence, information, and returns they have annexed as an Appendix to this their report. 1. Your Committee are of opinion that the number of members in each House of the Legislature can be reduced with advantage to the colony, both in the matter of good government and saving of expense. 2. That no member of Parliament should receive any salary or payment for his services as Chairman of any Committee. 3. That the amount of honorarium should in no case exceed £150 ; and that members residing within a radius of ten miles from Wellington shall be entitled to receive not more than £50. 4. That there are several officers receiving large annual salaries whose duties do not occupy them at the utmost more than six months in the year, and in some instances not more than four months; while officers on the Hansard staff, other than the Chief Eeporter, are only employed during session. That there is no reason why such officers should not be, and your Committee are convinced that they can be, fully employed for the benefit of, and with economy to, the public service. 5. That certain officers whose time is but partially employed, receive, in addition to salary, gratuities or bonuses for work which they should be required to perform as falling within the scope of their duty. 6. That the full employment of officers only partially employed will enable the Government to lessen the number of officers without affecting the efficiency of the Government service. 7. Your Committee recommend the discontinuance of all bonuses or gratuities to officers in the public service without the sanction of Parliament. 8. That no addition should be made to the salaries of any officers which are fixed by Act of Parliament without the sanction of an Act of Parliament. 9. That the Government should be directly responsible for all Parliamentary expenditure, and that all officers should be under the direct control of the Government. 10. Your Committee are of opinion that the cost connected with the printing generally, and of Hansard in particular, is unnecessarily large, and that the use of caligraphs by the Hansard staff has not, by reason of the inefficiency of the staff in their use, tended to decrease such expense. 11. That, with a view to encouraging the use of shorthand by officers in the Civil Service, preference should be given to candidates able to write shorthand. 12. Your Committee would suggest that an amendment be made in the Standing Orders to insure the continuance of business between sessions without retracing steps or repetition, as provided by the following regulation, taken from the Procedure of the Congress, U.S.A., viz.: — Unfinished Business of the Session. Bule 27, page 184. —After six days from the commencement of a second or subsequent session of any Congress, all Bills, resolutions, and reports which originated in the House and remained undetermined at the close of the last preceding session shall be in order of action, and all business before Committees of the House at the end of one session shall be resumed at the commencement of the next session of the same Congress in the same manner as if no adjournment had taken place. I—l. 10.

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13. Your Committee recommend that steps be taken during the recess to obtain the necessary information for the completion of the annexed return relating to the procedure of Legislatures in other countries. EUGENE O'CONOE, Wellington, 3rd August, 1886. Chairman.

MINUTES OF PBOCEEDINGS. Friday, 11th June, 1886. The Committee met pursuant to notice. Present: Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Barron, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Levestam, Mr. O'Conor, Hon. Sir E. Stout, Mr. T. Thompson. On the motion of the Hon. Sir E. Stout, Mr. O'Conor took the chair. On the motion of the Hon. Sir E. Stout, Besolved, That the following returns be obtained: (1.) Cost of the various Legislative Departments in the Australasian Colonies. (2.) The number of days and hours of sitting of both branches of the Legislature. (3.) The cost of printing Hansard, &c, and books of Appendices, &c, together with number of pages of each. (4.) Number of members,, and payment to each. (5.) Number of Ministers, and payment to each. (6.) Cost of Hansard reporting. (7.) Number of population.

Friday, 18th June, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Brown, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Garrick,. Hon. Sir E. Stout, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The Committee having examined the returns laid before them, On the motion of the Hon. Sir E. Stout, Besolved, That the following further information be obtained—viz.: (1.) The salaries of, and bonus given, in full, for all purposes, to Speakers, Chairmen of Committees, Clerks, and messengers in the various colonies. (2.) The number of clerks, permanent and occasional, also messengers, and time of their service. (3.) And particular returns as to salaries, &c, of all officers in the Legislative Department of New Zealand. On the motion of Mr. Garrick, Besolved, That the Chairman of the Committee do move in the House that the Legislative Council be requested to give permission to the Hon. Mr. Eeynolds, the Hon. Captain Baillie, and the Clerk of the Legislative Council to attend the Committee, and give evidence. Besolved, That the following papers be printed: Eeturns showing legislative expenditure in various colonies; also, extract from Mr. Joseph Cowen's book, showing sittings of Parliament in. Europe and the United States. The Committee adjourned until Monday, the 21st June, at 11.30 a.m.

Monday, 21st June, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Brown, Mr. Garrick, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The Chairman having read a letter from the Hon. Mr. Eeynolds, containing information and suggestions, and excusing his attendance, on the motion of Mr. Brown the same was received. Mr. A. T. Bothamley, Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council, attended, and was examined by the Chairman, and declined to give evidence in regard to himself or other officers of the Legislative Council. The returns and tables prepared by order of the Committee having been examined, On the motion of Mr. Barron, it was Besolved : That the Chairman be requested to report to , the House that the Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council has attended the Committee, but has refused to give evidence beyond what appears on the estimates, on the ground that he has received no instructions from the Legislative Council to do so; and to ask the House to pass such resolution as may enable the Committee to obtain full information from any person under examination. The Committee then adjourned until Friday, the 25th June, at 11.30 a.m.

Friday, 25th June, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Barron, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Garrick, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of the previous meeting read and confirmed. The Hon. Mr. Eeynolds attended and gave evidence, and read a statement referring to legislative expenditure. The Committee then adjourned until Monday, the 28th June, at 10.30 a.m.

Monday, 28th June, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Brown, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Levestam, Hon. Sir B. Stout, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The Hon. Captain Baillie attended, and was examined. The Committee then adjourned until Wednesday, the 30th June, at 10.30 a.m.

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Wednesday, 30th June, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Brown, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. George Didsbury, Government Printer, attended, and was examined. A memorandum by the Hon. Sir E. Stout, referring to the cost of printing evidence and returns by order of Select Committees, was read by the Chairman. The clerk was directed to summon the Chief Beporter, the Clerk of the Legislative Council, and the Chief Messenger of the Legislative Council, to give evidence at the next meeting. The Committee then adjourned until Thursday, the Ist July, at 10.30 a.m.

Thubsday, Ist July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Garrick, Mr. T. ThompsonMinutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The Hon. Mr. Beynoids, being present, took exception to certain portions of his evidence before the Committee, as taken down by the reporter, and he having corrected the same, it was received by the Committee as amended. Mr. A. T. Bothamley, Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council, attended, and was examined. Mr. C. C. N. Barron, Chief Beporter of the Hansard staff, attended and was examined. The clerk was directed to summon the Assistant Librarian and the Custodian, to give evidence at the next meeting. The Committee then adjourned until Friday, the 2nd July, at 11 a.m.

Feiday, 2nd July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Garrick. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. D. T. Smith, Assistant Librarian, attended, and was examined. Mr. W. Letham, Custodian of the Parliament Buildings, attended, and was examined. The clerk was directed to summon the Clerk of Parliaments, Captain Home, and the Chief Messenger of the House of Bepresentatives, requesting their attendance at the next meeting. The Committee then adjourned until Monday, the sth July, at 11 o'clock a.m.

Monday, sth July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Garrick. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. F. B. Campbell, Clerk of Parliaments, attended, and was examined. The Chairman then read an extract from a letter from Sir Erskine May, referring to legislative expenditure in the Imperial Parliament. Captain C. G. Home, Sergeant-at-Arms, attended, and was examined. On motion of Mr. Dargaville, Resolved, That the evidence taken, and returns, &c, laid before the Committee, be printed. The Committee then adjourned until Friday, the 16th July.

Feiday, 16th July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Brown, Mr. Garrick, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The Chairman read extracts from a paper laid upon the table of the House showing deductionsof honorarium of members of the General Assembly for non-attendance. The clerk was directed to summon the Clerk of Parliaments, the Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council, Mr. Butherfurd (Becord Clerk), and the Chief Messenger of the House of Bepresentatives, to attend the Committee and give evidence on Monday, the 19th July, at 10 a.m. The Committee then adjourned till Monday, the 19th July, at 10 a.m.

Monday, 19th July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Barron, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Mr. A. T. Bothamley, Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council, attended, and was examined. Witness also produced account-books and papers. On the motion of Mr. T. Thompson, Resolved, That witness be requested to furnish further information regarding travelling expenses of members of the Legislative Council. Captain C. G. Home, Sergeant-at-Arms, attended, and was examined, and produced books and papers. Mr. F. E. Campbell, Clerk of Parliaments, attended, and was examined, and laid a memorandum referring to the -work of sessional clerks upon the table. Witness was requested to have a return prepared, showing travelling allowance given to members of the House of Bepresentatives during the Ninth Parliament. Mr. M. Cosgrave, Chief Messenger of the House of Bepresentatives, attended, and wasexamined, and produced books and papers. The Committee then adjourned until Tuesday, the 20fch July, at 11.30 a.m.

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Tuesday, 20th July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Oonor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. T. Thompson. A quorum not being present, the Committee adjourned.

Feiday, 23kd July, 1836. Present: Mr. Barron, Mr. Garrick, Hon. Sir E. Stout. A quorum not being present, the Committee adjourned.

Monday, 26th July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Hon. Major Atkinson, Mr. Barron, Mr. Brown, Mr. Garriek, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The subject of travelling expenses of members of the General Assembly was discussed, and the Chairman was requested to prepare a draft report for consideration of the Committee. The Committee then adjourned until Wednesday, the 28th July, at 10 a.m.

Wednesday, 28th July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Banon, Mr. T. Thompson. A quorum not being present, the Committee adjourned until Thursday, the 29th July, at 10.30 a.m. Thubsday, 29th July, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Brown, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Garrick, Mr. Levestam, Hon. Sir E. Stout, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. On the motion of Mr. Garrick, Besolved, That the schedule showing travelling allowances of members of the General Assembly be printed. The subject of the report having been discussed, several members expressed a wish to supply suggestions. On the motion of the Hon. Sir E. Stout, Besolved, That the Committee do adjourn until Monday, the 2nd August, at 10 a.m. The Committee then adjourned.

Monday, 2nd August, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Brown, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. Garrick, Mr. Levestam, Mr. T. Thompson. Minutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. Draft alternative proposals for the report were considered in detail, and agreed to as amended by the Committee. Motion made, That the following clause be agree to : That the amount of honorarium should in no case exceed £150, and that members residing within a radius of ten miles from Wellington shall be entitled to receive not more than £50. The Committee divided. Ayes, i. —Mr. Barron, Mr. Brown, Mr. Garrick, Mr. T. Thompson. Noes, 1. —Mr. Levestam. So it was resolved in the affirmative. On the motion of Mr. Barron, Besolved, That the Chairman be requested to ascertain from the Treasury Department whether there are any officers in connection with the Legislature who are in receipt of salary in addition to pension; and, if so, to obtain a list of such officers, and the particulars of payments so received. Mr. Brown gave notice of the following motion : That any member who is in receipt of a pension should be subjected to a deduction of one-half the amount he is entitled to receive for his parliamentary duties. (Lapsed.) On the motion of Mr. Barron, Besolved, That the printed return 8.-16 form part of the report. On the motion of Mr. Garrick, Besolved,That further consideration of the proposed report and the items of Class I. of the estimates be postponed until to-morrow, and a specific notice be sent to members of the Committee requesting their attendance. The Committee then adjourned until Tuesday, the 3rd August, at half-past 10.30 o'clock a.m.

Tuesday, 3ed August, 1886. Present: Mr. O'Conor (Chairman), Mr. Barron, Mr. Brown, Mr. Dargaville, Mr. T. ThompsonMinutes of previous meeting read and confirmed. The draft report having been further considered, the Committee confirmed the alternative proposals as amended, and the following additional resolution was agreed to—viz.: 13. Your Committee recommend that steps be taken during the recess to obtain the necessary information for the completion of the return relating to the procedure of Legislatures in other countries. Eeport, as amended, agreed to (vide report p. i.) Ordered, That the Chairman be instructed to report the resolutions as passed to the House. The Committee then adjourned.

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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

Monday, 21st June, 1886. (Mr. E. J. O'Conoe, Chairman.) Mr. A. T. Bothamlbt, Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council, in attendance, and examined. 1. The Chairman.'] You are Clerk of the Legislative Council?—l am Acting-Clerk. 2. How long have you been acting as Clerk ?—Since the 10th or 11th February this year. 3. Then, you have only been in attendance as Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council?—l hold the permanent position of Clerk-Assistant of the Legislative Council. 4. How long have you been attending the Council in that capacity ?—-I entered the public service in March, 1871. I was first employed in the Legislative Council in the session of that year. 5. In what capacity ? —As an extra clerk. I have been Clerk-Assistant for about eight years. 6. Is the Committee to understand that you have been employed each session of the Legislative Council ? —Every session, except one year, when I was absent from the colony, first on special service, and subsequently on leave without pay. 7. Is there any record in the Legislative Council of the times of their sitting and adjournment? There is no record of the hour of adjournment; they begin their sitting at a regular hour. 8. Does the Council sit for a regular number of hours daily?— No. 9. Are there regular days appointed for sitting?— Yes; the regular days are Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday. 10. Practically, during session, do the Council sit on those days ?—Generally they do. The Journals would show it. 11. Have you the Journals of the Council ?—I have not got them with me. 12. Are you not able to speak without them?—l could hardly tax my memory as to the days the Council sat, or the occasions on which they have not sat; or the time they have sat on regular sitting days, or the occasions on which they have sat on what are ordinarily non-sitting days—Mondays and Saturdays. 13. Then, we are to understand that the Council has no record of the days on which it actually gits?—lt has a record of the days on which it sits, but not of the time to which it sits. 14. Is not that available ?—The published Journals give the days but not the hours of adjournment. 15. In the estimates for this year the Chairman of Committees is set down at £300, fixed by Act, and £120: are you aware what are the duties of Chairman of Committees ?—I do not think I am at liberty to give evidence as to what are the duties of the Chairman of Committees. 16. Why do you think that ?—The Jeave given to me was to give evidence before this Committee upon legislative expenditure. I think it would be exceeding my duty to give any evidence as to the duties of Chairman of Committees without the express direction of the Council. I will, however, take a note of your question ; but think I should not be at liberty to give evidence upon it. 17. Then, the same objection would apply to any question I should put to you as to the duties of officers of the Council. I do not ask the same question in respect of the Chairman of Public Petitions Committee, because you would reply in the same way ?—The leave given to me is confined to giving evidence before this Committee upon legislative expenditure. Mr. GarricJc: Put the question as to any one acting as Clerk of the Council, for the witness is the gentleman who is discharging the duties of that office. 19. The Chairman.] Then, as regards the Clerk of the Council: you are acting as Clerk of the Council. There is a salary put down here at £400 by Act and £100 for twenty-three years' service; that does not apply to you? —No ; that does not apply to me. 20. Are you aware whether the Clerk of the Council receives that extra £100 for any service rendered over and above the service that he is required to render as Clerk of the Council ? —He receives that sum by a vote of the House as Clerk of the Council. I cannot go outside the record as stated in the Speaker's estimates. 21. Are you aware whether he has any other salary except that which is mentioned here, that is, £400 and the £100 ?—Besides the £500 ? 22. Yes; that is the question I put?— These estimates are supposed to show the whole of the salary he gets. lam not aware that he has. 23. Has he any othpr employment from the State ?—I am not aware that he has any other regular employment from the State. 24. Mr. GarricJc.] Or allowance?—l think I must decline to answer questions of that sort, " Whether he has or has not had employment other than " 25. The Chairman.] Yourself ?—With regard to myself, I have had other employment, but to give evidence upon this is hardly within " legislative expenditure! ,, I—l. 10.

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26. Have you been instructed to take the part you now take ?—No; I have received no instructions whatever. 27. Do you take it from the order of the Council? Mr. Garrick ; Or, rather, that is your interpretation of the order of the Council. Witness : Yes. A message was sent, in reply to a message of the House of Eepresentatives, giving leave to the Clerk of the Council to attend and be examined before this Committee. 28. Mr. Garrick.] You put your own interpretation on it as to what you ought or ought not to say ?—Yes; I am now acting in the way which I conclude is my duty—to confine my evidence to legislative expenditure. [At the request of the Chairman the witness retired, in order to allow the Committee to deliberate.] 29. The Chairman.] You are now holding the office of Clerk-Assistant ?—That is my permanent office. 30. And for that you receive a salary of £350 a year ? —I have received that amount hitherto. 31. What are your duties as Clerk-Assistant ? Is that question included in your objection ?— ' must make the same objection to reply to that as to the other questions you ask, with all respect to the Committee. 32. Mr. Garrick.] Do I understand you that you simply decline—whatever your motive may be—to answer the question?—l have already said so. 34. The Chairman.] Are you now discharging the duty of Clerk of the Council ?—Yes. 35. Who is acting as your assistant ?—The Second Clerk-Assistant. 36. Is his also a permanent appointment'?— Yes; it is a permanent appointment. 37. Do you hold any other office beside that of Clerk-Assistant ?—No. 38. Do you receive any other emolument or bonus during the recess besides the £350 ?—That is the pay I receive for holding the office of Clerk-Assistant. Mr. Garrick : That is not an answer to the question. 39. The Chairman.] Do you receive any bonus beyond that salary of £350 a year ? You could answer that question; surely it does not require much time to consider ?—lt is simply a matter of duty with me. 40. I would suggest to you that it is your duty to answer the questions put to you by this Committee —your paramount duty?—My paramount duty is to the Council. Mr. Garrick: I would suggest that the witness should either give evidence or decline to give evidence. Upon declining, he might be asked to state his reasons, otherwise we shall get into confusion. 42. The Chairman.] Will you be good enough to state if the pay you receive as Clerk-Assistant is £350 ? —Yes; it is on the estimates. 43. Do you receive any bonus beyond that salary of £350 ?—I can state that the pay I receive is £350, as stated on the estimates. 44. That is not the question I asked ?—With regard to anything that is not published there, until I receive further directions than the leave that has been given to me, I decline to state. Mr. Thompson: I take it that this gentleman's evidence is of no use to us. We have the information which he is willing to give already on the estimates. 45. Mr. Garrick.] I wish again to put it to the gentleman under examination, if I understand him rightly, that he has no instructions whatever as to what evidence he should give or withhold ? —That is so. 46. Have you any objection to state during what hours you are employed as Clerk of the Council ?—I think that is beyond Mr. Garrick: Ido not wish to press you : I only want to know the number of hours you are employed. 47. The Chairman.] Do you do other work ? 48. Mr. Garrick: Do I understand you that you consider such questions are not within the scope of this inquiry, because I conceive that it is your duty to give this information ? Witness : Ido not refuse other work. The only order I have received is the order which has been given me to appear before this Committee. 49. Mr. Garrick.] To what order do you allude. I ask you the question because you seem to feel it to be your duty not to reply to certain questions asked of you. I now ask you whether you do not consider it to come within the scope of your duty to answer them ?—As I interpret the order of the Council it is not my duty to answer such questions as have been put to me. 50. Can you not see that the object of the Committee's inquiry will be defeated unless you give replies to such questions ?—I am not definitely informed as to what is the object of the Committee. 51. That is your reply ?—Yes. 52. You are unable to form an opinion, or you do not form an opinion, as to the object of the Committee ?—lt is not for me to form an opinion on the subject. 58. The Chairman.] I was about to ask you whether you have a copy of the resolution of the Legislative Council under which you now act ?—lt is contained in a message to the House. It is to this effect: that the Legislative Council have given leave to the Clerk of the Legislative Council to attend and be examined before a Select Committee of the House of Eepresentatives on legislative expenditure. 54. Mr. Barron.] "To give evidence," is it not ?—" To be examined," I think are the words. 55. The Chairman.] Will you be good enough to send me a copy of the resolution of the Council?—l could only do so by leave of the Council. 56. You can produce it, I presume; but you must have known, when you got leave to attend, that you were to give evidence. Surely you could not imagine that you were not to give evidence, when they instructed ytm to attend here and be examined ?—Evidence of what is published.

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57. It must be apparent to you that they did not want you to attend here and give information as to what is published ? —I do not think it a part of my duty to inform the Committee without further instruction. 58. Mr. Barron.] Your reason for not giving evidence is that the application made to the Council, and the leave given for your attendance, are not sufficiently explicit: it did not indicate to you the evidence you were to give. Had the application for leave, and the order to attend, sufficiently and fully covered all the grounds that you have been asked about, you would have felt yourself at liberty to give the evidence which you have now refused ?—I would have given any evidence that the Council directed me to give through the Speaker. 59. So that, in order to enable the Committee to get the evidence that has been indicated by the questions put, it will be necessary to make a more explicit application, and that more specific instructions be given to you by the Legislative Council when you get leave to attend here ?—Exactly ; until that is done, or until the Speaker of the Council tells me that I have exceeded my duty in. refusing to answer such questions. 60. Mr. Garrich.] Do you consider the direction of the Speaker of the Council paramount or superior to the order of the House of Eepresentatives that you should attend and give evidence ?—- Paramount, certainly. My duty is only to the Legislative Council and the Speaker of the Council. 61. Mr. Barron.] You are not supposed even to know the House of Eepresentatives officially? —I know nothing of what is going on in the House of Eepresentatives, nor do I know anything of what goes on in the Legislative Council, so far as giving evidence elsewhere is concerned.

Fbiday, 25th June, 1886. Hon. W. H. Beynolds in attendance, and examined. 63. The Chairman.] You are a member of the Legislative Council?— Yes. 64. And a Minister of the Crown ?—Yes. 65. How many years have you been a member of the Legislative Council ? —I think about eight years. Prior to that I was a member of the House of Eepresentatives. 65a. For how many years ?—I may state generally that I have been a member of the House of Eepresentatives for many years. I was also a member of the Provincial Council of Otago from its inception to its abolition. I held the position there of Speaker for several years. I mention these facts because I am going to give some evidence in connection with the Provincial Council of Otago as to expenditure. 66. Perhaps it would be as well if you made a statement in your own way ?—Yes, I can give you a statement, and then you may put to me any questions you please. In 1883 I brought before the Legislative Council the necessity for reducing the expenditure of that body. I did not carry my resolution. The whole debate on that subject will be found in Hansard of the 21st August, 1883. The reason why I came to the conclusion that our expenditare was too heavy was on account of my knowledge of the work done in the Provincial Council of Otago, which was far greater than what it is in the Legislative Council. I was thoroughly convinced that it could be done in the Legislative Council for a very considerable sum less than the expenditure proposed for that year (1883). This session I brought forward a resolution asking for a Committee to consider whether any reductions could be made. But the Council would not accede to my request, and the resolution was rejected. I prepared at the time a list of what I considered could be struck off the estimates without any detriment to the public service. I may read out the items. There is the Chairman of Committees, £300 by Act and £120 by vote. I propose that this £120 should be struck off. Then, there is the Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee, £50. The work of that Committee is really nothing at all—no more than any other Committee of the Council. Then, there is the Clerk of the Council, who has by Act £400, and it is proposed to vote £100. I would have that £100 struck off. Then, there is the " Clerk-Assistant." I would reduce the Clerk-Assistant by £350, for I hold that two clerks are ample to do the work of the Council. Neither the Clerk nor Clerk-Assistant attends the Committees, unless it be occasionally the Standing Orders Committee. I cannot say that I ever see them at any other Committee. Three clerks are just one too many, the third is like the fifth wheel of a coach—one too many. Then, there is the Interpreter. The vote for that office is £200. For all the Interpreter has to do, I think £100 is ample. He has only to be there about an hour and a half in the day on an average, and some days only a quarter of an hour. Then, as to the Shorthand Committee Eeporter: I think that, for all the shorthand reporting the Council would require, they could manage to borrow one from the other branch of the Legislature —in fact, there ought not to be any special shorthand reporter for the Council. The shorthand writers should be for the Parliament. Then, there is the office of Messenger. I see it is proposed to raise his salary from £140 to £150. For all the Messenger has to do, I think if he got £110 or £120 a year it would be ample. 67. That would make a considerable difference upon the proposed expenditure for this year ?— These are reductions which, if I had been Speaker, I would have carried out. 68. How much do they amount to ?—To about £909 or £910, I think. 69. I would ask you whether, since you have been in the Legislative Council, the business of the Council has increased or otherwise?—l do not think it has increased at all. 70. Has the expenditure increased ?—Yes; the expenditure has gone on increasingly slightly. 71. What do you mean by " gone on increasing ? " Do you mean to say it has been added to year by year? —Yes; and there is an attempt to make it more. The Speaker has wanted more than the Government would assent to. There has been a correspondence, I believe, between the Speaker and the Government on the subject. 72. Mr. Dargaville.] Can we get that? The Chairman : I should think so; it is, no doubt, an official record. Do you know, Mr. Beynolds, whether it is an official record ?—I do not know but that it is a private correspondence, between them, but I think it is to be had,

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73. With regard to the time of the sittings of the Council, can you give this Committee any information as to how they could get the time of sitting ?—The Clerk of the Council could give it to you quite well. I understand that he has stated that he could not make a return. The Chairman : No; he said that he could not give it, because it is not entered on the Journals. Witness : But it is entered in Hansard, the hour the Council meets, and the hour it breaks up. If you apply to the Clerk of the Council, he can easily make out a return by going over Hansard day by day, and seeing at the end of each day how long the Council sat. I might state here that, at the time I brought forward certain propositions in 1883, I took the trouble to make out a list. I got the sitting-days taken out myself, and found that the total number of hours of twenty-four sittings between the 13th June and the 31st July, 1883, was thirty-three hours and forty-eight minutes, which was an average of one hour twenty-four minutes and twelve seconds a clay. Ido not think that, taking the whole session—take the last session, for example —it was much above an hour and a half as an average for each sitting-day. 74. Are you aware whether the duties of the persons whose salaries you have just now criticised —the Chairman of Committees, the Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee, and the Clerk—are sessional, or whether they are allowed to perform other duties during the recess ?—They have no other duties comparatively speaking; they have to get up votes and proceedings and. get them printed, and see that they, with the minutes, are correct; but a month after the session is over, or perhaps even less, is in my opinion sufficient for that. Having been a Minister here for four years I have had a good opportunity of judging during the recess; and, with the exception of what I have stated, the Clerk has nothing to do. 75. Do you think that the Clerk of the Council has nothing to occupy him during the recess beyond what he could do in a month ?—I certainly think he could do it all in a month. 76. That he has no other duties ?—None other in connection with the Council that I know of. He does other things, but he is paid for that separately. 77. What are they? —There is, for example, preparing the index to the statutes. I hold that that is a part of his duty; and he ought to do it during the recess. But he is paid for that. Ido not know what amount, but you can make this out by inquiry. Then, I understand, he has been engaged by the Government in connection with the census, for which he is paid extra. These two things I know of. There may be other things. 78. Hon. Major Atkinson.] Are you speaking of the Clerk now, or of the Assistant-Clerk?— Of the Clerk. 79. He is away, is he not; how do you know that he has been engaged about the census ?—I believe that the Assistant-Clerk is engaged now about the census. I cannot be quite certain about that. In regard to preparing an index to the statutes, I have brought up here in these two books a specimen of what was done in the Provincial Council of Otago, which had only one clerk. He prepared a table giving the whole of the Acts in addition to the Journal now before you. 80. The Chairman.] All the provinces, I believe, had this kind of work done?—lt shows you that the work of the Provincial Council was more than the work of the Legislative Council. Here is the index of the provincial Statutes and Journals for the year 1875—the last year the Otago Provincial Council existed. 81. Mr. GarricJc] I think if we go into the work of Provincial Councils this inquiry will be interminable. 82. The Chairman.] We are going into it, but to a very slight degree, in order to compare the work of the officers of the Provincial Council with similar officers of the Legislative Council, and the expenditure in connection with them, according to Mr. Eeynolds's experience. Witness : I can hand these books to the Chairman. It would be valuable, I think, to have them. You will please to return them to the library. 82a. The Chairman.] I want to ask you a question or two more with regard to the Clerk: the Clerk of the Council is now absent?— Yes"; I understand so. 83. Are you aware under what circumstances, or where he is?—l think he has got twelve months' leave of absence from the Speaker. 84. From the Speaker?—l believe so; I cannot speak positively. 85. With full salary?— Yes ; I believe so. 86. Mr. Dargaville.] After how many years' service ?—Twenty-three years. 87. Hon. Major Atkinson.] Is it not six months ?—I think it is twelve months. 88 Mr. Dargaville.] Six months after twenty-three years' service, do you think that unreasonable ?—The six months would be equivalent to twelve months, seeing that, taking the recess into account, it would cover the year. Hon. Major Atkinson : I think you will find that it is not so. Mr. Dargaville : I think we ought to be very particular in a matter of this kind. The witness has stated that it was twelve months. Witness : I said I was not positive. Mr. Dargaville : I think if we go into particular cases we ought to be very careful that we ara accurate. Witness : It can be got if you ask Captain Baillie; he tells me it is only six months. 89. The Chairman.] The work of the Council is now performed by how many clerks? I will put the question to you more distinctly : during the absence of the Clerk of the Council, who takes his place ?—The Clerk-Assistant. 90. And who takes the Clerk-Assistant's place ?—The Second Clerk-Assistant. 91. Who takes his place ?—There are clerks engaged for the session. There are three sessional clerks, and I believe as many permanent clerks. The whole of these would not be required if the permanent officers were to render their services [in Committee-work. If the Council sits only for about an average of one hpur and a half, I think they (the permanent officers) could devote their

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spare time to act as Clerks of Committees. If, however, there were only two permanent clerks engaged, then it might be necessary to have the three sessional clerks. 92. Is there much Committee-work that these gentlemen have to attend? —They do not attend to Committee-work as far as I know. I never saw them attend any Committee, except the Standing Orders Committee ; but they may be for aught I know. 93. Are you on the Standing Orders Committee? —Yes. 94. How often does it sit ?—Possibly two or three times each session; it does not sit very often. 95. With regard to the Interpreter, you say that his services could be dispensed with ?—No ; I do not say they could be dispensed with; but the Shorthand Eeporter could be.dispensed with. As to the Interpreter, for all the work he has to do, £200 is a very large salary. 96. Do you understand that this gentleman's services are limited to sessional duties?— Yes; I understand that is so. 97. And the Messenger's services, are they so limited?— The Messenger, during the recess, is knocking about the buildings, and attends to the Speaker : that is all. He sees that the buildings and the Legislative Chamber are kept in order : that is about the extent of his work, as far as I know; but I cannot, with certainty, say as much about the Messenger as the Clerks. 98. You have no provision for a Sergeant-at-Arms : how do you dispense with that important officer? —There is no necessity; we do not require him. 99. Does the Messenger take that place?— There is no necessity for it. 100. How do you arrive at the conclusion that the Shorthand-writer is not required ?—I think the Shorthand-writers ought to be for Parliament, and, if the Council needed one, one ought to be sent. 101. Are you under the impression that he gives no other service to the Council?—l understand so, but you will find that out from the Clerk of the Council or the Clerk-Assistant of the Council better than from me. 102. Hon. Major Atkinson.] With every respect to the witness, I must say that some of this evidence is rather loose. He only "thinks" about the Messenger, he cannot speak positively as to the Clerk, and he is "not sure" about something else. What we want here is accurate evidence, and that is what, I think, we have not got. Witness : I am giving positive evidence. I have said that from the 14th June to the 31st July, being twenty-four days, the total number of hours the Council sat was thirty-three hours and forty-eight minutes, which gives an average of one hour twenty-four minutes and twelve seconds per day. 103. Mr. Dargaville.] Is there any prospect of our being able to reduce the honorarium?—l would be in favour of it; but I would not be in favour of coming here without an honorarium. I think, if the members of the Legislative Council and the other branch of the Legislature are to give up their time, they should not be out of pocket by it; but they should be perfectly satisfied with just sufficient to pay their expenses while here. I do not think it right that members of the Legislative Council should have their expenses paid, and make money out of it besides. 104. Mr. Barron.] Do you know whether the officers of the Legislative Council get any payment for services other than what appears on the estimates?— Yes; I cannot say the amount. I know they are paid extra for the index to the statutes. 105. You have been many years a member of the Legislature ?—Twenty-four years or thereabout. 105 a. You are a member of the Government, and have been a member of the Legislature for twenty-four years : is it your opinion that the legislative expenditure is excessive ?—Yes. 106. Is it possible for the Government to control the expenditure in the public service?—Do you mean in connection with the Legislature ? 106 a. I mean, generally, in connection with the public service and the Legislature. I am asking because you say you have been twenty-four years connected with the Legislature ?—Do you mean the service generally ? 107. Generally, as to the public service?—lt is a most difficult thing to do. It is quite competent for the Government to do it. It is, I think, possible to do it, but it is very difficult. 108. Is it possible to control expenditure in connection with the Legislature ?—The practice has been to allow the Speakers to send in their own estimates, and then to allow the House of Eepresentatives to deal with those estimates. 109. Has that always been the practice?— That has been the practice. Occasionally, I have known the Government and the Speakers to have a few words in reference to the Speakers' estimates. On one occasion when the vote took place in Parliament all the Ministers except one, I think, left the House. It was stated to the House —in fact, I stated it myself—that the Government were not responsible for these estimates ; that they were the Speakers' estimates, and it was for the House to deal with them. I think I was the only Minister who remained. These were the legislative estimates. 110. You do not know why the Government walked out rather than remain ?—I do not think I am at liberty to mention that. 111. I wish to ask you whether, in your opinion, it is impossible to control legislative expenditure ?—I do not think it is impossible. 112. You say that on one occasion, when the estimates for the legislative expenditure were submitted, the members of the Government had such a strong opinion, apparently, that they were excessive, that they walked out of the House rather than remain to vote ?—I would not like to say that. My opinion might be one thing. lam not in a position to say what were their reasons for walking out. 113. But they walked out; all except yourself? —I was the only one, I think, that remained. It was on one item.

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114. I want a somewhat more distinct answer to the question whether it is impossible for the Government to control legislative expenditure ?—My answer to that is that it is not impossible to control it, because the Government might do it if they would take the responsibility ; but Governments never do that, but leave it entirely to the House to deal with the legislative estimates. 115. Mr. Garrick.] Do I understand you, Mr. Eeynolds, that the difficulty of dealing with these estimates is that, because they are considered the Speakers' estimates, they should not be interfered with?— Yes. 116. Do I understand you that the Government so regard it that they do not interfere ? —Yes. 117. Are you able to say whether it is the privilege of the Speaker to give any Clerk leave of absence, at full salary, or otherwise, as he pleases ? —I believe it is. 118. Do I understand you to consider—or, are you able to say—that it is the privilege of the Speaker to give a holiday to a Clerk, and to say whether he should have full pay or not ?—Yes ; I think it is a privilege, seeing that the Clerks are not under the Government, but entirely under the Speaker. 119. There is one other subject to which you referred : Did you give a full reply to the question as to whether the members of your Chamber had other emoluments or allowances, or whatever you term them, besides the honorarium ? —I think there is only one, that is, the Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee. 120. Eeferring to the indexing of the statutes: Did you say that any member of the Council had anything to do with that ?—No; I was referring to the Clerk. There is only one member of the Legislative Council that has anything in connection with the votes for legislative expenditure, that is, the Chairman of the Public Petitions Committee, who has £50 for the session. What I said was that the Clerks had other emoluments. I cannot state to what extent; but I know there were payments to one or both of them. I do not know how many of them; but that you can easily find out. 121. Are you able to say which Clerks get emolument in addition to salaries : Can you specify them ?—I could not say how it has been divided : whether they got it between them, or whether it was only given to Mr. Stowe, the Clerk of the Council. 122. What was given ?—lt was a sum for preparing the index to the statutes ; also in connection with work done in connection with the census. That information will be better got from the Assistant-Clerk of the Council: he can give the information. 123. Do you know that the duties of the Clerks cease with the session ? —They have nothing to do ; they do not take up work in any of the other offices. Their work is done as soon as they get out their books. 124. You mean the Journals ?—Yes. 124 a. Are you able to say how long a time making up the Journals will occupy ?—I cannot say how long they take here ; but they certainly should not take more than a month. 125. Then, the only duty they have is that which you call making up the Journals ?—As far as I know, that is so. 126. Mr. Barron.] You say that the legislative estimates are looked upon as the Speakers' estimates, with which the Government does not deem it to be within its duty to interfere ? —I say Governments : I do not say the present Government. 127. But you say they are looked upon as Speakers' estimates, with which the Government do not consider it to be their duty to interfere ?—Yes. 128. But the House sometimes interferes?— The House has a right to interfere. 129. But the Government is supposed to lead the House ?—The Government is supposed to lead the House, but not in the expenditure of the House itself—that is, if the Government were to say, " We will not bring down the Speakers' estimates but our own," the House would be justified in resenting interference with the Speakers' recommendations. 130. Would it not be better if the Government should interfere for the purpose of giving the House guidance in enabling to discriminate between what is necessary and what is excessive expenditure ?—I do not think it is ever done by any legislative body—l have never known that any Government interfered with legislative estimates. The Speaker is supposed to be the executive officer of the House; it is supposed that the members have confidence in the Speaker, otherwise they would not have elected him. If the Speaker really does his duty, the members would not care to interfere with what he has recommended. That is the position of the matter. The Speaker, as I have said, is the executive officer of the House, and as such his estimates are submitted to Parliament. 131. Then, you do not think that the Government is in any better position than members of the House to discriminate between what is necessary and what is excessive expenditure ?—They may discriminate as members of the Government, and. say these estimates are too high or they are extravagant. They may do that. But in the House, while as private members they might be prepared to strike them out, they would say as a Government, "These are the Speakers' estimates, it is for you to deal with them." 132. Would the Government endeavour to get the House to alter them ?—I do not know what the Government would do. If I were in your House I would say, " They were too high or too extravagant, but it is for you to reduce them." But a Government does not like to fall out with the Speaker; it is a serious thing to have the Speaker against you. 133. The Chairman.] Do you wish to give any evidence with regard to the House of Bepressntatives ?—I will give any evidence lam asked; but you can get it better from members of the House. My own impression is that the House of Eepresentatives is just as extravagant as the Legislative Council. 134. Will you point out on what you base that assumption ?—The Speaker has by Act £600 a year. I think it is unreasonable that he should expect £200 by vote. All these extra votes, where there is provision made by Act, I think should be struck out.

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135. Are you aware whether the work in the House of Eepresentatives has increased verymuch of late years ?—I think it has increased. 136. Do you think that increase of expenditure has been proportionate or greater than the increase of work ?—I do not know that the work has so much increased but that the same staff 1 could have done it. 137. Can you point out the increase of staff that has been made unnecessarily within the past few years?—No; I could not. It is not a question of staff; it is the excrescences that I object to. 138. You mean by excrescences increases to regular salary ?—Yes; it would be far better to alter the Act. If £600 is not sufficient, make it £800 and have done with it. I would not have it so much by Act and so much by vote. 139. Mr. Ban-on.] Will you indicate to the Committee any items that you consider excessive other than those you have already indicated ?—I am giving evidence here on legislative expenditure. 140. Will you be so good as to indicate any of the items from the estimates before you bearing on legislative expenditure which you consider excessive—any item that you have not had an opportunity of bringing before the Committee ?—I would strike off £200 to the Speaker of the House of Eepresentatives by vote, and the £100 to the Chairman of Committees. I would strike out also the £100 to the Chairman of Public Petitions Committee. Ido not see why he should be paid any more than the Chairman of any other Committee. The Chairman of the Native Affairs Committee I would deal with in the same way. The £100 to the Clerk of Parliaments, who has by Act £600, I would strike off. The Clerk-Assistant £500—I would strike off that £100. Then, with regard to the second Clerk-Assistant, if you reduce the Clerk-Assistant to £400, the second would have to be reduced in proportion. As to the Sergeant-at-Arms, if he gets the same as the honorarium—£2lo—it ought to be sufficient. Then, there are two Interpreters at £225 apiece. My impression is that that is too large a sum to pay for Interpreters for three months in the year. I think that £450 might be reduced by £150, leaving £300—to each £150. Then, there is the Messenger, who gets £187 a year; his duties are little better than those of a labouring-man. I would put that down as having £67 to be struck off, leaving him with £120 a year. Then, there is the Examiner of Standing Orders on Private Bills. I would strike that off entirely, and give the duty to one of the Clerks of the Legislative Council. Then, here is an item, "Interpreter for translating speeches of members, £60." Surely the two Interpreters attached to the House could do that without extra pay. Then, there is translating the Acts into Maori, £25. Surely that is a part of the Interpreters' duty. They have very little else to do. Of course these are trifles, but it is trifles that mount up. That is about the extent. As to the sum of £600 for the library, it is a question whether that should be voted or not. 141. All these items are connected with the House of Eepresentatives ? —Yes. 142. The Chairman.] I would ask you whether you have any remarks to make in regard to Hansard ?—No ; I could not offer any opinion about Hansard. If Hansard is to continue it must be properly conducted. 143. Mr. Barron.] You have seen this return (8.-16) ?—Yes ; I have seen it. 144. You see that among the other items of expenditure increasing to a great extent are the salaries of Ministers? —Yes; that is so. You will find that in 1860 the salaries of Ministers were at £2,913, and last year they were £9,250. 145. Do you think it is possible to effect any reduction on that item? —Well, Ido not know what that £9,000 is for. 146. Salaries ? —I cannot say how much it covers. There are seven Ministers. 147. How many were there in 1860?— I forget. 148. Not so many as seven ? —No. 149. But there would be certainly four ?—I should think so. 150. You will find another item there of travelling expenses and allowances, which in 1875 amounted to £1,044 and in 1885 amounted to more than double that amount, viz., £2,100 —that is, in ten years?— Yes. 151. Do you think that it is possible to curtail that expenditure?—l should not like to give any answer on that subject unless I devoted some attention to the several items. Without going into the matter fully I would not be able to form a correct idea. At the same time, I must say the travelling expenses are heavy. 152. Do you find an item for ministerial residences?— Yes. 153. What is the reason of the increase from £124 to £2,812 a year ? Do you think there is any possibility of making a reduction in that item ? From your knowledge of the position of a Minister, do you think it is necessary to have ministerial residences ?—I think it is necessary to have ministerial houses, for Ministers outside of Wellington could not be expected to enter the Government unless they got a furnished house. If they were to rent a house they would have to furnish it, and they might not be in the Government for more than a month or two. 154. Does the item refer to an annual expenditure in addition to this ?—There should not be any outside expenditure for ministerial residences more than there has been already. 155. How many of them are the property of the Government ? You say there are seven Ministers ?—Yes. 156. How many of them reside in houses that are the property of the Government ?—=l cannot say which are the property of the Government. I know that two or three of them are the property of the Government- —three, I think. I am not certain whether the Government bought the house in which Sir Eobert Stout is. They had it leased. I know it was leased for many years; but I think they must have bought it now —I am not certain. 157. Would you object to take that return and look at it, and, if the Committee should so determine, to give us some information upon it ?—--I do not think I could give much information besides what it contains.

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158. You could think over it; your evidence upon it would be of great value to iis, as you hayS had so much experience ? —I have been looking over it this morning, but not sufficiently to give evidence upon it. 159. You might be able to suggest some retrenchment in the items, or you might be able to say whether you could suggest any retrenchment upon the whole. [Eeturn 8.-16 put in.]

Monday, 28th June, 1886. Hon. W. D. H. Baillie in attendance, and examined. 160. The Chairman.] You are Chairman of Committees in the Legislative Council ?—Yes ; I was appointed in July, 1879. 161. You have heard the evidence of the Hon. Mr. Eeynolds ?—Yes. 162. Have you any remarks to offer to this Committee upon that evidence ?—I may state that he was in error with respect to the leave granted to Mr. Stowe, the Clerk. The leave was granted by the Government. I may also state that he received his appointment from Government. 163. Has the Speaker no power of appointing the Clerk?—lt is a constitutional matter to which I cannot speak, and one with which, I suppose, the Hon. Mr. Reynolds was not acquainted. With respect to the duties of the various Clerks, I may inform the Committee that there are two of them on duty every evening during the session until 10 o'clock, or later if the Council is sitting ; then, of course, their hours are extended. 164. Will you kindly state what they are ? —lt depends upon the amount of business that has to bo done. Sometimes one waits, sometimes the other. 165. You say they remain alternately ?—Yes. 166. What are their duties when they remain ?—The Second Clerk writes up his Journal and proceedings in Committee. At the early part of the session this work is light; but, during the last three weeks of the session, supposing the Council to sit until 10 or half-past 10 o'clock, it would be nearly 1 o'clock before his Journal could be completed. Likewise the Third Clerk (Mr. Amelius Smith), he is almost always in attendance. He also writes out the Journal of the Council. Of course, during the early part of the session his work is light in that respect, but during the last three or four weeks of the session, when the Bills that come up from the other House are numerous, even supposing the Council rose at 10 or half-past 10 o'clock, he could not finish his work until between 12 and 1 o'clock. I am speaking of facts within my own knowledge. I have known Mr. Stowe, when he kept his own Journal, not to have finished his work before 3 o'clock in the morning. He had to be present at 10 o'clock the same morning, in order to attend the Speaker on business. I may also state, as to the two senior clerks—the Clerk and Clerk-Assistant—their duties in the morning are various. Members are constantly referring to them for information or to furnish papers. They are also constantly called to attend the Speaker for the performance of other duties. The two permanent Clerks have for many years held their present appointments. If they had been for the same length of time in any department of the Civil Service, they would most probably have been drawing larger emoluments. The Hon. Mr. Reynolds stated that within a month after the expiration of the session they would be able to complete their Journals. Now, I know that last year the Journal was copied from the original document, sent to the printer, the proofs compared from day to day as they were received from the Printing Department, and they were not finished until the month of January. I have heard the recommendation made that these Clerks, after the expiration of their legislative duties, should be employed in the public offices of the colony. The question arises, In what capacity could they be employed? I think the Hon. Mr. Reynolds drew attention to the Messenger. Here is the case of the Messenger, who receives £150 : he has to be present every day during the session, and, of course, for six days in the week during the recess. There are messages to be taken backwards and forwards from the Clerk to the printing office daily, and there are other duties, so that to reduce him would be an injustice. In my own opinion, the Clerk and Clerk-Assistants are not over-duly paid, for they have to acquire some considerable knowledge of the Standing Orders and the conduct of the business of the Council. Comparing them with the returns which are here presented from the other colonies, they receive considerably less for the duties they perform. In Canada the Clerk gets £700; in New South Wales, £700 ; in Queensland, £500; in Victoria, £1,000; in South Australia, £600 ; in New Zealand, £500. The Clerk-Assistant in Canada gets £536; in New South Wales, £500; in Queensland, £300 ; in Victoria, £600; in South Australia, £415; in New Zealand, £350. You see that this— New Zealand—is on the lowest scale of any of the various Parliaments or Councils in the leading colonies (Return of Legislative Council Officers' Salaries—Report of Select Committee). This is the number of Bills introduced into the principal colonies: Victoria, 44; New South Wales, 30; and New Zealand, 104 ; together with the expenses of each Council, as follow : Victoria, £5,400 ; New South Wales, £5,590; New Zealand, £3,085. This goes to show that there has been an average of seventy Bills since the abolition of provinces, and that the work of the Council—and, in fact, of Parliament —has increased to the extent, I should say, of one-third by the introduction of local Bills affecting localities previously dealt with by Provincial Councils. From my own knowledge, I can state that many of these Bills used to be previously dealt with by Provincial Legislatures. I may state that the question of the legislative expenditure of the Council has often been brought before our House by the Speakers—Sir John Richardson and Sir William Fitzherbert. I find, on reference to the reports brought up by legislative officers of New South Wales, it is recommended that a certain sum should be set aside—a practice which is followed in various legislative bodies by Act of Parliament —to be dealt with by a sort of Standing Commission appointed by the Government. This is done especially in Canada. There is a Commission appointed, consisting of the Speakers and two or three other gentlemen, to deal with expenditure. You will find the practice in Canada, fully detailed in a book in the library. ffon. Sir B. Stout: There is a book in the library on the subject—BourieUi

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167. The Then, with regard to your own duties ?—With respect to my own duties I may state that I have to conduct the business of the Council, similarly to the work as conducted by the Chairman of the House of Eepresentatives, with the exception of Committees of Supply, which are not within the jurisdiction of the Legislative Council. lam likewise Chairman of all Committees on private Bills, where the procedure is similar to that in the House. There are three Committees of which I am ex officio Chairman under the Standing Orders, in accordance with parliamentary practice as laid down in May. I may state that on the estimates there is £120 additional put down—in addition to the £300. I may state that this £300 was originally passed by Act of Parliament. Ido not know exactly when it was —I believe in 1863 or 1864. But since that date the duties have materially increased. Since I was appointed in 1879 appropriations have been made of £100 for the first year, and nothing for each year until 1884, and then £120 in 1884 and 1885, and that sum is put down for 1886. During that time —seven years—there have been nine sessions of Parliament. Taking the average I have received £271. When there was an extra session I never received anything. With the exception of the last one I never received any addition whatever. 168. What did you receive last time ?—£l2o. That was to make it up to £420, equal to members' pay for the two sessions. For the time I have been Chairman of Committees I have received £349 a year, but those seven years include nine sessions. 169. You have given your evidence as to the Clerks, but you have said nothing with regard to the Interpreter and the Shorthand-writer ? —As to the Interpreter I do not think you could get a man for less money. He has to interpret speeches, and to translate all papers connected with Maori. 170. During the session?—-Yes, during the session. 171. Do you not consider £200 a rather heavy fee for such service? —If it were only for actual services. If he is in regular business how would he be able to drop that and take this up? The question is how you will be able to get a reliable man. It is, moreover, desirable that the Interpreter should be free from all outside influences, such as being employed by others. To get a good man you must give him a salary sufficient to keep him. 172. Mr. Levestam.] What are the average hours of sitting of the Legislative Council?—l do not think I have ever taken them out. I suppose three and a half or four hours. 173. The Chairman : We can get that; we have, a return taken from Hansard. 174. You have a number of Committees in the Council; do your Clerks attend any of them?— Occasionally; when they are short-handed. The other day I had to send for one to attend the Standing Orders Committee. There were four Committees sitting. 175. Have you a shorthand-writer constantly in attendance? —Two years ago we had a great difficulty in getting a shorthand-writer. It was therefore resolved that a shorthand-writer for Committees should be appointed. 176. Is he a separate officer?—My impression is that he is a separate officer; not connected with the House. 177. He is attached to the Council? —Yes; that is my impression. 178. Is he supposed to have a permanent salary ?—I think he has been employed on the Eabbit Committee daily; they have sat five days each week; he has been attending that Committee every day. 179. Then, we have extra clerical assistance; what is that for?— For extra clerks, I suppose. 180. When the sittings of the Council are short, ought not your regular clerks to be able to attend ?—I do not see how they could do it. 181. You say there are three extra clerks?— Yes, generally, taking them altogether; that is what we have had for the last ten years. 182. Do you know if these clerks are good clerks? —They are fairly average clerks. Ido not come in contact with them often. Of the three senior clerks, two of them have been there now for three sessions, if not four. 183. Are you aware what the item contingencies is for?—lt comes in for various purposes. 183 a. Who has the expending of that sum ?—The House Committee spends some of it, and the Speaker spends some. 184. Is there any return made of that expenditure?— The Audit Department would be able to furnish you with a return. There is one officer who does not appear in the Legislative Department, that is under my control almost completely. He is Clerk of Private Bills. I think the Hon. Mr. Eeynolds proposed to do away with him entirely, and give his work to another clerk. This particular clerk is appointed by the two Speakers under a standing order. His duties are to examine all petitions presented on private Bills. He has had considerable experience. I know of no man better qualified for the work. He is often put in an invidious position :if he has to report against a private Bill, which he often has to do. I do not think that any clerks could, compatibly with their other duties, do that work. It entails considerable research and knowledge of private-Bill legislation. The guide for all this legislation may be found in May's Parliamentary Practice. It is, no doubt, cumbersome, but necessary in the maintenance of private rights. Ido not see any other way of carrying out the objects of many of the Bills that are introduced. 185. Mr. Brown.'] Do I understood you to say that these private Bills may originate in our House, and this clerk goes over them to the satisfaction of yours ? Hon. Sir B. Stout: He means private bills : that is, Bills on petition. Witness : He is also clerk to Mr. Hamlin, when he sits, on private Bills. 186. Do you think that he could act as Committee Clerk during the session? Hon. Sir B. Stout: He is doing that now, in order to get some extra pay ?—By the Standing Orders he has to keep an office the whole year round. A month before the session he is obliged to be there to receive the petitions sent in. 2—l. 10.

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187. Mr. Brown.'] There is no business that he has to attend to prior to a month before the opening of the session ?—For a month or six weeks before the session solicitors would be coming to him to make inquiries about procedure. He must be accessible to the legal profession so as to give them the information they may require. 188. He is not obliged to appear in his office after the close of the session ?—No ; the fees payable on private Bills more than cover his expenses. 189. Have you any shorthand-writers in the Upper House ?—Yes ; one. 190. Has he any duties besides shorthand-writing: is he employed otherwise during the session?—l cannot say. Hon. Sir B. Stout: He is employed, I believe, on the Press. 191. Mr. Broivn.] You say that no one but the Speaker can give us the information as to the duties and salaries of officers ?—I suppose the Auditor-General could give you every information as to salaries. As to this shorthand-writer, the reason of his appointment was that there was a difficulty in getting one of the Committee reporters some two years ago. I think myself that a clerk of this description expedites the business of a department. 192. Do you not think that, considering the great amount of time the Legislative Council has on its hands, they could dispense with a shorthand-reporter ?—There has been a Joint Committee on the Babbit' Nuisance sitting daily for the last fortnight or three weeks; they have sat five days each week. 193. They do not have such a Committee every year?— They had one in 1884. 194. It would not be necessary to provide a special shorthand-writer for each year?— Every year there is some special Committee sitting, perhaps, for two or three weeks. If it is not a Committee in respect to rabbits and sheep it will be a Committee on something else. 195. It is possible that the person referred to may not have to attend more than ten days during a session, or even five days?— Just so. 196. Then, he has got a fixed salary for five days' work ?—That might be so. . 197. So that he may get £150 for doing no work? —I cannot say from my own knowledge. The Chairman ; Captain Baillie might be able to furnish the Committee with a return of the number of Bills passed in the Legislative Council from 1860 to the present time, showing the increase from year to year. 198. Mr. Brown.] Have we the number of hours they sit ? 199. The Chairman.] Yes; we have a return taken from Hansard. Mr. Beynolds has also given us a return. I should like to ask Captain Baillie a question or two in regard to bhe House Committee. I would ask what are the arrangements under which the House Committee manage Bellamy's? —Originally the Government had a grant of £700 or £800 —it might have been £1,000 —to meet certain expenditure. A good deal of this was expended in plate, china, and other things. A sum of £250 was put down for servants. During the last five years there has been no grant nor any assistance, except £75 two years ago for china which is broken. There is great breakage every session. You would scarcely believe the amount of breakage which is principally arises from carrying refreshments to Committee-rooms and places outside Bellamy's. That has to fall on the profits derived from the wines. On the messing, that is, on " the table," there is a loss. The whole of the servants are paid out of profits. 200. As to the manager?—He is paid as custodian of the building during the recess. He has to look after the buildings during the year. He is responsible for the furniture and everything else in the place. There is a night-watchman also during the recess and while Parliament is sitting. He comes on at 8 o'clock. 201. Has he anything to do with Bellamy's?— No. 202. Fuel, &c, is, of course, paid for by the Government?— Yes. 203. The salary of the manager of Bellamy's ?—He is paid as custodian of the building, 204. Are there any other expenses connected with Bellamy's ?—Except incidental expenses in the way of repairs. 205. Are you aware what is the profit on the sale of liquors sold in the course of the session ? —Last year we were £70 to the bad. There were two short sessions, which were detrimental to profit. We had to keep on servants. If you remember, there was a six week's hiatus between the two sessions; that obliged us to keep on the servants. 206. You say the table does not pay?— No. 207. How many members of the House avail themselves of Bellamy's?— About twenty-two, I think; but a great number of them have occasional meals there, luncheon especially. When sittings are late, and on wet nights, a good many have supper. 208. Do you think that Bellamy's, for the sale of wines and spirits, or for supplying meals, could be dispensed with ?—I do not think so beneficially to the health of members. I doubt very much if you could carry on without some place for refreshment. Members would be tempted to go to neighbouring hotels, and at times of division, or at other times when they were wanted, they would not be in the House. 209. In other words, you think it serves a purpose?—lt is of course not an unmixed evil in itself. 210. Mr. Levestam. In connection with this ball, is anything paid by Government towards that? —Not a bawbee. 211. How is that managed ?—The gas must be burnt whether there is a ball there or not. The messengers will be paid by the Ball Committee, the workmen engaged in the preparations will also be paid outside : there might be a little breakage, but very little. 212. Do you remember when Laing catered for Bellamy's ?—Yes. 213. Did we pay him anything?—No, I think not; but he never gave us such a table as we have now; the liquors were not to be compared with what they are now.

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214. So you think that the present system is better than getting some one to cater for Bellamy's?—l think so. 215. Do you speak from your experience at the time that Bellamy's was catered for?— Yes; I have been Chairman for ten years ; I think the present system is the best. 216. You are very seldom there of an evening : your duties bring you less into Bellamy's than members of our House?—l am there pretty often; I generally lunch there twice a week. I often have a cup ■of tea there. I cannot stand the heavy dinners.

Wednesday, 30th June, 1886. Mr. G. Didsbuey, Government Printer, in attendance, and examined. 217. The Chairman. .] You are Government Printer, Mr. Didsbury ?—Yes. 218. With regard to printing that is being done for the Legislature, it has been suggested that a considerable amount of economy might be practised by changing the system under which the records and Journals of both Houses and other parliamentary papers are printed. Here are two volumes, one showing the Victorian system, and the other the Canadian system. This latter appears' to me to be in newspaper form ?—lt is in double column, which style, I suppose, is adopted for convenience of reading. It is more convenient, you will perceive, to carry the eye along the more limited space, especially where such small type is used. Many persons would have a difficulty in following the long lines if set across the page. That is the principal reason for using double column. 219. Would it not be possible to publish the votes and proceedings in this way, so as to save space as well as cost ?—I do not think that it would effect much saving. You will see that our Journals are in large type, which I find more convenient for the purpose. It is the same as the Order Paper, Governor's Speech, &c, are set in, so that we get standing matter to work into the Journal in that way. There are only about 400 copies of the Journals printed, so there would be no appreciable saving in paper by altering the size of the type to brevier, or the size of the page. It is of course more easily read by using large type. Small type is very often objected to by members. 220. With regard to printing when the House is in session, have you to take on any hands for the session-work ?—Yes ; I generally have to take on twenty-six or twenty-seven hands. Ido not take them all on at once. I begin to take them en gradually some time before the session commences. Parliamentary papers are sent to me in advance, which enables me to get my staff together before the session actually commences. 221. Can you suggest any means by which economy could be effected in printing either Hansard or the votes and proceedings ? —With regard to parliamentary papers I notice that we print a large number in excess of what is printed in the other colonies. In Victoria, where the population is a million, they only print 750 copies; while we print 1,400 and sometimes a large number for the departments in addition. 222. What becomes of all these papers ?—They are circulated free. A great many extra copies are sent up for members' use. Copies are sent to local bodies in the colony, also to all public libraries and newspapers. A great number are sent to officials: this, with the copies reserved for binding, brings up the number to 1,350 or 1,400 copies of each paper. That is nearly double the number printed in Victoria. There would be a good deal saved in paper and binding if the number could be reduced, but as far as the cost of compositors' work is concerned I do not see how any saving could be effected. The papers are mostly done by piece-work. Those consisting principally of tabular or table work are done by the time-hands. I select the papers to be given out to the different rooms. 223. Printers are paid by the thousand?— Yes, piece-hands are. 224. In cases of columns—such as the division-list, for instance—do you pay extra ? —As in this Canadian volume, where they are printed in four columns, double rates would be charged; but in our own Journals we only print them in double column, in which case there is no difference in rates. 225. What do you mean by that ?—Work requiring four justifications, or in four columns, is always charged double under the piece-work system. 226. Then, there is no extra charge for division-lists when set double column ? —No. 227. Being set up at so much per thousand, and in double column, I understand you there would be no saving in changing the system of printing the names in four-column form ?—No. 228. How if you ran the names on ? —lt would save space. 229. It would also effect a saving in other respects?— Yes. 230. What have you to say against that saving being effected ?—I have nothing whatever to say against it; in fact, I suggested it some years ago to the Printing Committee, but it was not adopted. The only objection to it would be to render the names of the gentlemen voting on either side less prominent. There is no objection on the part of the printing office to set them " solid "if it should be approved. 231. Have you any suggestions to make in regard to Hansard that would save printing?— The cost of correction is very heavy in connection with the printing of Hansard. Ido not know that there could be any saving effected, unless it were decided not to send the proofs to members for revision, and allow the press-reader to finally revise their speeches. It was contemplated, when the type-writers were introduced, to send the " copy " to each member for revision before coming to the printing office. I told Mr. Barron I did not think that that plan would be feasible: it is so difficult to get back copy from members by the time it is wanted. Moreover, Ido not think the copy is sufficiently legible to send to members for correction, judging by the way some of the Hansard reporters send copy to the printers.

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232. You say you are under the impression that that could not be effected ?—No. 233. Are you aware that it was represented to Parliament that a saving would be sure to follow the expenditure for these type-writers ? —I believe that was represented to Parliament: the reason assigned for the purchase of them was that it would tend to economize the amount of correction. 234. "Why, then, is it that the Hansard reporters cannot give out their copy in a sufficiently clear way to enable the members to correct their speeches'?—l do not know. The corrections involve a lot of extra labour in the printing office. The foreman before he gives out Hansard copy generally reads it over and marks it. It is often very imperfect and scarcely legible. That of course takes up time. Copy should be sufficiently clear to obviate all that work. Then some of the reporters are very careless in the use of these machines. Very much better copy could be turned out with proper attention. The use of so many abbreviations makes their copy difficult to read. We have on some occasions to send back copy to the reporters to be re-written. A great many of the compositors say they would prefer ordinary manuscript copy. 235. The work of the type-writer is as clear as any of your type-setting ?—'Well, nearly so. It should be if properly manipulated. 236. Do I understand you that there is a great deal of difficulty in consequence of these abbreviations ?—Yes; sometimes also they do not leave proper spaces between the words or lines. It is difficult to make out the words where two lines overlap each other. The abbreviations are often arbitrary and puzzle the compositor. 237. This puts .a great deal of extra work on the printing office ? —lt adds to the work. I have brought some of this copy with me. If you examine it will you will find that the letter "t" is used for three or four different words. 238. Mr. Barron.] The abbreviations are not the same in all? —No ; different reporters sometimes use different abbreviations. 238 a. What is the objection to members correcting from the type-writer copy ?—The great difficulty would be in getting the members to correct the proofs promptly. 239. There is no reason why the copy should not be sent out from Hansard office direct to members, excepting that you think you would have a difficulty in collecting the proofs again'? — Yes ; that would be the great difficulty. 240. The Chairman.] Could it not be worked in such a way that a press copy could be taken. If that were done you could always have a copy in the office ? —I suppose that could be done if copying-ink were used. 241. Otherwise, if the proof is not sent back from the member corrected, you will have nothing by which you could set up the speech in Hansard except the shorthand-writer's notes?— No. 242. Would it not be well to have some rule by which a member if he neglected to correct his proof within a certain time should forfeit his right to his own corrections?— That might be done. 243. You say there is no difficulty in having the copy distributed to members; the real difficulty would be in getting the corrected copy back again?— Yes. 244. Then, if the member were shut out from correcting his proof, you would still be able to call upon the shorthand-writer to furnish a copy of the speech, which you could still set up if the orignal copy were not obtainable ? —Yes. 245. That would be corrected in the ordinary way ? —By the press-reader in the printing office, I presume. 246. What is the average cost of the corrections?— The corrections made in Hansard every session cost from £260 to £270 ; that is, about one hour and a half per page. 247. Do you refer to the corrections to be made in the copy or in the Hansard proof?—l am not taking into account at all the foreman's time in going over the copy. 248. Would the publication of Hansard be expedited if you could adopt this plan of getting the Hansard copy direct ?—Do you mean through the members ? 249. Yes; through the members ?—Yes, if it were sent down promptly, and obviated the necessity of sending proofs to members after the speeches were in type. 250. The Chairman.] I wish to ask you with regard to the publication of Hansard, has it increased ?—No, I should say not. I am printing 4,800 copies this session. I printed more last year, but, finding a lot of them on hand after the session, I reduced the number. I cannot always correctly forcast the probable demands, The number of subscribers last year was 760. I dare say there will be about the same number this year. The year before last there were 1,500. 251. Then, the subscribers have fallen from 1,500 to 760?— Yes. 252. Mr. Brown.] There is a large supply to members ? —Yes. Members apply for more copies than formerly. Twenty "copies are now appropriated to each member of the House of Eepresentatives and eight to Legislative Councillors. The Legislative Councillors used not to use them very extensively, but they are all appropriated now. This makes the free distribution very large. 253. What does the free distribution amount to ?• —There are about 760 subscribers, the balance of the 4,800 is issued free, with the exception possibly of some 300 copies that are kept in stock. 254. There is a large number that go to Government Buildings?— Yes. 255. I saw an express-load going there?— They would be going to the post office. You will see that every local body, every Borough Council, Eoad Board, public library, and newspaper get a copy of Hansard free. That makes up a very large list, in addition to what are placed at the disposal of members. 256. The Chairman.] Would it not be an improvement in the printing of parliamentary papers to have them all of. a uniform size, such as Hansard, for instance ?—I do not think that anything is to be gained by altering the present size. 257. Mr. Brown.] Would there not be a difference in regard to binding if they were of a different size ?—You would have a greater number of volumes if the size were reduced to demy Bvo., like the Canadian volume; it would probably make a difference of one or two volumes in a session.

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258. The Chairman.] That in your hand—the Canadian parliamentary papers—is contractwork ? —Yes; it is very indifferently printed, and the paper is very poor, too. 259. With regard to the votes and proceedings, how long does it take, after the House has risen, before they are completed ?—About four months. 260. I suppose they are kept back until Hansard is out ?—My first duty is to get the statutes out. My machines are occupied with that work for about three weeks after the session ; Hansard is then completed; and then the Journals and parliamentary papers, laid on the table in manuscript, are set up. 261. The Journals of the House?—l am not in a particular hurry to print the Journals, as the papers are often of more immediate consequence. 262. Who supplies you with copy? —The Clerks of either House; they also revise the proofs. 263. With regard to Committees and proceedings in Committees, who revises the proof there? The Parliamentary Eeader, Mr. Bell, generally does. 264. You say it takes four months after the session before you take up copy ?—No; before I have it finished. 265. How many Hansards have to be printed after the session ?—lt takes several issues to work up the arrears. The fact of our having to send proofs to members by post delays the making-up. 266. I want to know the additional cost of Hansard now, as compared with twelve years ago, on the whole establishment—say, in 1874 or 1876 and 1886 ?—I suppose the expenses of printing and binding Hansard amounted to about £3,000 ten years ago, and the total cost of the department to about £12,000. 267. What is the total cost now ? —About £20,000 in the year. 268. Mr. Brown.] That is your calculation roughly of the cost at the present time ?—Yes. 269. The Chairman.] Does that arise from the House sitting late?— There are a great many more parliamentary papers than formerly, and the evidence taken by Committees is becoming very voluminous. There is also a very large amount of departmental work, which gradually grows up. 270. What is the average cost of evidence taken before Committees?— About 12s. a page. 271. What- would a return cost per page?— That depends on whether it was plain matter or tabular. Plain matter would be about 12s. a page; table-work, about 17s. 6d. a page. 272. Does that include anything beyond setting ? —Yes; it includes printing but not paper. 273. That varies, according to the number required?— Yes. 274. Do you think that, if tenders were called for any portion of that work that is now done at the Government Printing Office, it would be more cheaply done than it is now ?—No; I do not think it would. My experience of work done by private printers is that the cost works up much higher than it would cost the Government in their own office. 275. Has that been tried ?—I have had occasion to get work done which I could not do myself. I form my opinion from experiences of that kind. 276. Did you call for tenders?—l go to printing offices and obtain prices before I give out the work. It could not be done outside of Wellington during the session. 277. The question is, whether, if tenders were called for a certain amount of work previously to the session, private printing establishments would not tender for the work at low rates ?—I do not know that private printing establishments would think it worth while to enlarge their offices at great expense for work that would not be permanent. 278. Could they not do the work unless they had larger offices?—No, I think not. As to offices in Wellington, I do not think they are prepared to enlarge their premises for the sake of a probable contract. Moreover, work that is given to private offices often causes the departments to grumble very much because the proofs are not properly read. We save a lot of trouble also in corrections. 279. You have said that the cost of corrections made in Hansard is about £270 ?—Yes ; there are other matters also to be considered. The press-reader goes over the whole of the proofs again after the members' corrections have been made. That is necessary because many are not up in the method of making corrections :it has all to be read over again. In going through the press-reader's hands before going to press a large number of corrections have to be made; but these I regard as house-corrections. 280. Mr. Barron.] Taking all that into consideration you think the cost would be more ?— Yes, certainly. 281. How much more —probably 3d. per page more ?—I, think more than that; some members make a great mess of their corrections. 282. If the system were adopted of correcting the copy sent from the type-writer and the proof became missing, so that another copy would have to be made, would that cost more ?—lt would cause more labour to the reporters to transcribe their notes a second time, but would not add to the cost, as they are paid a fixed salary. 283. Have you given us the cost of the reading?—l have not asked the overseer in the room .where this work is done to give me an estimate of the time that it takes. 284. Does it take a man's whole time ?—No, as he prepares other papers for the compositors also. 285. The Chairman.] Have you only one reader to keep all these men going?—l have fiv during the session, but of course they are engaged upon other work besides Hansard. 286. What time is consumed in preparing copy and reading Hansard proofs before sending them to members ?—I do not know that I could give you even an approximate estimate of the time. I dare say it would take half an hour a page. 287. How much matter does an average sitting of the House furnish to Hansard ? —About twenty-five or thirty pages. 288. That would be fifteen hours a day occupied in the reading of these proofs ?—Yes; that is for four and a half days a week. 289. While the House is sitting ? —Yes.

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Thubsday, Ist July, 1886. Mr. A. T. Bothamley, Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council, in attendance, and re-examined. 1 290. The Chairman.'] In pursuance of your evidence before given with regard to the work of the Council, I wish to ask you whether that work is of such a character as to preclude the Clerk from doing other work?— Perhaps, before I answer that question, I may state that I have prepared a schedule of duties of the Clerk of the Council, which might assist the Committee in questioning me. [Schedule read.] 291. You do not mention whether the Clerk has any authority over the other officers of the Council ? —I have said that he is responsible for the proper execution of the business of the office, which necessarily involves authority over other officers. 292. Do you mean that the Clerk of the Council is the chief of whatever staff is required in the service of the Legislative Council ?—Yes; under the Speaker, who is, of course, the chief permanent officer. 293. With regard to the Clerk-Assistant and the Second Clerk-Assistant, I presume there is some one acting in your place when you are acting as Clerk ?—Yes ; the Second Clerk-Assistant is in my place. 294. There is another clerk now?— There is another clerk—an extra clerk—who acts as Second Clerk-Assistant. 295. For the session? —Yes ; for the session. At the same time a good deal of extra work is thrown upon myself and also upon Mr. Moore (Acting Clerk-Assistant), such as writing up the Journals. The gentleman who is acting as Second Clerk-Assistant does not write the Journals. 296. During the recess, what work falls upon yourself as Clerk in the meantime and as ClerkAssistant at other times ?—I am employed in seeing the Journals and Appendix through the press, making indices of Journals and papers, and conducting any correspondence there may be; in looking after the accounts and attending the Speaker. 297. Then, as Clerk-Assistant what would be your duties?'—They are much the same. 298. What is the duty of the Second Clerk-Assistant during the recess ?—He has sometimes very heavy work during the recess. He is called on occasions when he is wanted. 299. His work is assisting the other two officers ?—Yes ; assisting in the office generally. 300. With regard to the Interpreter?—l have not scheduled his duties. He sits in the Council when the Council is sitting. He translates all Bills and papers relating to the Native race. He does anything else that the Maori members wish him to do. He acts to a great extent as their secretary. lam not actually conversant with all his duties, but will forward an account of them to the Committee. 301. Are you aware whether he has any duties during the recess ?—I am not aware. 302. Who appoints the Interpreter? —The Speaker of the Council. 303. Then, are we to understand that the Interpreter has no regular schedule of duties ?—I am not aware that he has. 304. With regard to the Shorthand Committee Eeporter ? —His duties are to act as shorthandwriter to Select Committees. I may mention, with regard to that, that sometimes more than one shorthand-reporter is required. We have to get assistance of that kind on such occasions from the staff of the House of Eepresentatives. If the shorthand-writer to the Council is not required, he i 3 available to assist the Committees of the House of Eepresentatives. 305. His duties are limited to sessional service?— Yes. 306. With regard to the Messenger, there is one put down here at £150?— I have not scheduled his duties ; but he has very responsible duties. He sees that the other messengers do their work. He rings the division-bell, and attends to the Council generally. He is on duty at any time that his services may be required. 307. Has he any duties during the recess? —Being the Messenger of the Council, he is always in charge of the offices; he acts as doorkeeper, and goes messages. 308. Are we to understand that he is retained for the purpose of delivering messages during the recess ?—He carries messages, acts as doorkeeper, keeps the rooms tidy, and looks after the place generally. 309. Are the rooms not locked up during the recess ?—The Speaker's room and the offices areopen, but the record-room is always kept locked. With regard to what I have said as to the duties of Interpreter, Shorthand-writer, and Messenger, if the Committee wished it, I could get those duties scheduled. Mr. Garrick : I think that would be as well. 310. The Chairman.] With regard to the extra clerks during the session, there is £150 put down for that; what services are returned for that ?—Besides the permanent officers, there are ordinarily two extra clerks. 311. Are they engaged in daily attendance?— Yes, during the session. 312. What are their duties?—To attend meetings of Select Committees, and do all the work connected with them, to keep in order the Bills and papers, and copy anything required. 313. How many extra messengers are engaged for the £250? —Four. 314. What is this £250 for contingencies?— For any contingencies that may arise—any new furniture that may be required, such as a bookcase, washstand, safe, coal-scuttle, towels, or other requisite. 315. Is there any schedule returned of these contingencies : is there any account of this expenditure ?—lt is kept in the Treasury books; we also have an account-book in which we enter the items. 316. The getting of these things is authorized by the Speaker ? —Yes, and sometimes by the House Committee.

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317. Can you state what salary any of these officers receive for services during the recess over any amounts for salaries set down in the estimates ? —As to the three permanent officers there is no salary attaching to them other than what is on the estimates. But in the recess if they can get anything to do they do it. 318. Then, there are no regular services by the Clerk, Clerk-Assistant, and two extra Clerks provided for outside their duties in the Legislative Council ?—No. 319. Do any of these officers receive a bonus which does not appear in these estimates'?— Last year I believe there was a sum of £50 on the estimates for preparing the index to the statutes of the General Assembly. 320. By whom was that ordered?—By the Council. 320 a. By resolution of the Council?— Yes. 321. Was that resolution passed last year? —The original resolution was passed in 1879. Another resolution was passed in 1884, under which a new edition was to be prepared. 322. Mr. Garrick.] The Clerk of the Council is away on leave ?—Yes. 323. Six months' leave ?—Yes, six months. 324. Does not that practically involve twelve months' leave ?—Do you mean that he will be absent twelve months? 325. Did it not involve the liberty to the Clerk to stay away twelve months if he liked ?—Not that I am aware of : I know that is not his intention. 326. Is not that the effect of it ? —I think not. 327. You have said there would be no services requiring his return within the twelve months ? —I do not remember saying that. I think perhaps some other witness may have said that, as he will have duties to perform if he is here, as he will be in about six weeks' time. He would have to see the Journals through the press, and do the other duties which he ordinarily performs in the recess. 328. Are you able to say what time the Clerk and Clerks-Assistant are employed during the recess, and whether their work is continuous ?—There is no continuous work, because it depends upon the printer to send up the work; but the attendance is continuous. We attend daily. If the printer sends up the proof-sheets we read them as they are sent up. 329. Can you say what is the amount of time in the year that you are employed ?—I have calculated, putting the various works together, that it would be about eight months. 330. Mr. Garrick.] The Government Printer has told the Committee that the printing is completed in four months after the end of the session? —That is, generally speaking, correct. But the exception to that is the fact that the printing during last recess was not completed within that time. 331. What did you mean when you said that the Clerk would be at liberty to get extra work during the recess ?—I have had extra work during the recess, with the permission of the Speaker. 332. Do you mean work connected with Government, or outside work ?—Work connected with the Government. I have been Private Secretary to the Premier (Sir John Hall) during the recess. I have been allowed to assist Dr. Hector in publishing work, and in other things of a similar description. But employment of that kind is very precarious and uncertain. 333. Do these observations apply to the other gentlemen termed Assistant-Clerks?—They would, I suppose, be at liberty to do the same. The Speaker makes a stipulation that any work he allows me to take outside should not interfere with my duties to the Legislative Council. In illustration I might state that some work on which I was engaged last recess in connection with the census was interrupted by my being subpoenaed to give evidence before the Supreme Court at Auckland. I had to employ another person to carry out my work. 334. Would it be allowed to any of these gentlemen to attend to any work of an ordinary commercial or mercantile character, such as that of an insurance office ?—I do not think he would be allowed to go into the business of an insurance office, or any other mercantile business. 335. Is there more than one Messenger ?—There is another Messenger, who specially waits upon the Speaker, and assists the custodian of the Parliament Buildings. 336. There are three ?—No; the Custodian has the charge of the building. The Messenger is the permanent Messenger of the Council and the one which I designate as the Speaker's Messenger. The latter takes the place of the Chief Messenger when he is absent, and waits upon the Speaker. He also acts as custodian of the building when the Custodian is absent on leave or from sickness. 337. Speaking of the Clerks in making up the Journals, that is the work of all three, is it not ? —The Second Clerk-Assistant does not practically assist. He may be called on at any time to do so. If, for instance, either of the two Clerks was called away, or had to leave, he would then be called on to assist. 338. Then, if the Second Clerk-Assistant is not called on to assist, he would practically have nothing to do after the session closed?—He would have work to do for a week or two after the session closed, also for a week or two before the session. 339. Then, except the assistance he might be called to afford the other two gentlemen, his duties would be comprised within a week before the session and about a fortnight afterwards ?— Yes. 340. So far as work is concerned, then, all that has to be done is making up the Journals and Appendix and the indices to Journals and papers ? —There is, of course, correspondence, and attendance upon the Speaker once or twice a week on business, and a number of small duties, which we cannot put in a schedule. 341. Speaking of the Interpreter, his duties practically end with the session? —I have known a case where the Interpreter has been called on during the recess to perform duties. 342. But as a rule ? —As»a rule, I should say, the duties of the Interpreter end with the session. 343. Do I understand you that the Speaker uses his office twice a week?— Always once and sometimes twice or more a week, as business arises to require his attention.

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34:4:. His office is open the same as any private office? —His office is always open. 345. You speak of £250 for contingencies. Is that a sessional amount —the sum always put down?—lt has been the same for the last year or two.. This year, I observe, it is put down again. Until a few years ago contingencies were in one' sum for both Houses. 346. Do I understand you that the amount voted for contingencies is always disposed of as a matter of course ?—No; last financial year the sum expended was £209. 347. Would it be possible for you to give the Committee a schedule showing, byway of illustration, the distribution of that fund ? —I could make it out, but I should have to go through the account-book and pick out the items. 348. You said, I think, there was a Treasury account ?—Yes; there is an account in the Treasury. An account is kept in the office, but it would not be regarded as a commercially perfect account, being more a check against accounts being paid twice, than anything else. 348 a. Would any part of this £250 be disposed of by way of douceur or bonus ?—The second Messenger gets partly paid out of it, and the chief Messenger gets an allowance of 4s. a day during the session by way of making his pay equal to that of temporary Messengers. 349. Is the whole of the second Messenger's wages paid out of it ?—No; he is paid for his service during the session as an extra Messenger; for his service during the recess he is paid out of this £250 for contingencies.

Thuesdat, Ist July, 1886. Mr. C. C. N. Baeeon, Chief Beporter of the Hansard Staff, in attendance, and examined. 350. The Chairman.'] You are the Chief Eeporter of the Hansard Staff, Mr. Barron?—Yes. 351. Are all your reporters engaged for the House of Eepresentatives and the Legislative Council as well ?—Yes. 352. Does that include the shorthand-writer for the Legislative Council Committees ?—No; Committee reporters are not under me. 353. During the recess are the services of the Hansard staff utilized by the Government?— No. 354. So that when the session is over their work terminates ? —As soon as they have completed the index, which is a little time after the session. 355. The Committee had evidence yesterday from Mr. Didsbury, and in reply to a question he said that the machine-copies which are now furnished to the printing office are much worse and give more trouble than the manuscript copy furnished previously ?—I do not see how that can be possible. 356. Mr. Didsbury says it takes half an hour per page to prepare the work for the printers. He says that in consequence of the many arbitrary abreviations that preparation is necessary. [Copy of caligraph work produced.] What do you say to these abbreviations which are marked there?—lt appears to me that PWS for "Public Works Statement" is an abbreviation that any compositor should understand. The same as to " capital " B for " Bill." I should say at the same time that this is by no means an average of the work turned out from the caligraph. 357. It appears that the printers prefer the manuscript copy formerly furnished ? —So far as I can hear, the machine copies are thought preferable to any manuscript copy. 358. Was it not understood that the object of providing these type-writers was that " copy " might go direct to members for correction. Why is that not done ? —Partly through the request of the printer that it should not. The difficulty of collecting the copy afterwards would be very great; besides that, it would involve extra expense in sending the copy out and collecting it. 359. How do you arrive at that: the copy is sent out now; one sending would do ?—He wanted to send it from my office; but we could not send it without extra assistance; w T e had not time. 360. Is there no means of working these copies of members' speeches in duplicate ? —Ye3 ; it could be done with copying-ink, and having press copies taken ; but there again comes in the question of extra work. 361. Would not a boy be sufficient to take all the press copies for the whole Hansard ?— Yes; there would be a good deal of work; but I think he could do it. 362. Do you not think that the reporters of the Hansard staff should take more trouble ?—I think you would find that this example was worked off at a time when the reporter was heavily pressed. 363. In what time does a Hansard-st&ff reporter work off copy from the caligraph ?—lt depends very much whether you have to follow the speaker exactly in transcribing. 364. Then, it depends on the goodness of shorthand notes ?—Not altogether; it cannot be put down solely to that; you may have a splendid note, but a very indifferent speaker. 365. What did you say about sending the copy direct to members?— That is what I had hopes of doing; but it was found that so many contractions had to be made. 366. Do you permit contractions ?—They save much time. 367. With regard to reporting the Legislative Council, have you a part of your staff apportioned off to the Legislative Council ?—lt depends upon the work; sometimes there is one, two, or even more engaged in the Legislative Council. 368. What is the proportion between the House of Eepresentatives and the Legislative Council work ? —The House of Eepresentatives work is six or eight times as much. 369. Do you find any difficulty in replacing any vacancies that occur in the Hansard staff?—l have not had any difficulty. 370. Are the Committee reporters available for your Hansard work?—lf they are paid extra for it. 371. Mr. Garrick.] Do I understand you that the whole of the Hansard staff are employed simply during the session ?—Except myself.

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372. You are the only permanent officer? —I am the only one permanently employed. The others also are permanent officers. 373. They do not work during the recess ? —They have no work to do for Hansard except finishing the index. 374. How many of them are there whose time is at their own disposal during the recess ?—Six. 375. Do they receive a certain salary for the work they do ?—Yes ; £300 a year. 376. What becomes of these gentlemen during the recess ? Do they give attention to other things, as reporting, and so forth ?—Yes. 377. But you are permanently at work during the recess ? —Yes. , 378. Is not that a mistake ? Is not your time at your disposal as much as the others ?—No. 379. How is that ?—I am Secretary to the Civil Service Examination Board. 380. That is not in connection with ,the Hansard staff? —No; the Mansard ceases when the Hansard work is done. . 381. Then, your time is occupied as Secretary to the Civil Service Examination Board?— Yes; I have been Secretary to the Board since its establishment in 1869, for which I have received no extra salary. The Examination Board gives me a bonus of £100 a year for preparing the examination papers—in English, arithmetic, history, and geography for the junior; and for the senior examinations, Latin, French, sometimes Greek, algebra, geometry, and shorthand. The reason for doing that was that the Board, which is chiefly composed of heads of departments, found that they had not the time to do the work, and if any one outside were employed to do the work it would cost a considerable sum more. As I was found capable, they got me to do it, with the sanction of the Government. That was in 1870. Since then I have prepared all these papers. The Board examines over two hundred candidates every year, as can be seen by reference to the annual report of the Board, which is presented to Parliament. As each candidate pays a fee of 10s. 6d., which goes into the Public Account, the cost of preparation of these papers and the revision of the answers is more than covered. Many of the primary and secondary schools use these examination papers for test examinations; and the Judges of the Supreme Court accept the senior examination in some subjects as a general-knowledge pass-examination. 382. Is shorthand-writing one of the tests?—lt is not a compulsory test; but special advantages are held out to candidates for proficiency. I might be permitted to say, with regard to the secretarial duties, for which I do not receive any extra remuneration, that they have been so great during the past year or two that I have not been out of Wellington for more than a day within the last two years. 383. Do I understand you that there are no means of utilizing the gentlemen on the permanent staff?— That is a question that I cannot answer ; it would be a question for the departments to answer. I may also state that I have had on many occasions also to report special cases in appeals in the Supreme Court, and other duties of that sort without extra remuneration. 384. Suppose one or more of the other gentlemen of the staff were asked to report such cases, would they do so.? —They would require extra remuneration. 385. When Hansard Eeporters are employed on Commissions, or by a Minister while travelling, or for anything of that kind, what is the rate of pay ? —I think that, generally, they make special arrangements. I have had nothing to say to it. I believe the rate of pay has been two guineas, and Is. per folio for transcribing ; or it may be a guinea a sitting for secretarial and reporting duties : but I cannot speak with certainty upon that. Ido know that accounts have been referred to me to say whether the charges were right or not. Any charge that did not exceed two guineas a sitting and Is. a folio I always considered right, because that is the professional charge.

Friday, 2nd July, 1886. Mr. D. T. Smith in attendance, and examined. 386. The Cliairman.~\ You are Assistant-Librarian ? —Yes. 387. Will you give the Committee the date of your appointment, and how long you have been acting?— Since July, 1871. 388. Are you in charge of the library during the recess ?—Only as assistant. 389. Have you been acting as Librarian?— Yes, I have been acting as Librarian twice. 390. What assistance have you during the session?—We have one who is called the "mailman," and another for looking after the fires, making up packages for members, and generally assisting. 391. During the recess what assistance have you?— None, with the exception of my junior, McColl. For about a month after the session the two lads are kept on to finish up the work that is necessary to be done. They are taken on about two or three weeks before the session begins. 392. Who has charge of the library during the recess ? —The Chief Librarian. 393. Mr. Garrick.~] Does the work of the library necessitate the attendance of the Librarian and an assistant during the recess ?—Yes. 394. Do I understand by that answer that the library is fully used during the recess ? —lf you mean by the question whether the library is open to the public, I might state that all heads of departments have the entree. There are others who, by making application to the Chairman, obtain the entrSe. Heads of departments have the liberty of taking books out, but not the visitors. 395. Is the library fairly used during the recess ?—Yes. 396. So much as to necessitate the attendance of the Assistant-Lbrarian ? —Not so much for that as the work of the library itself ; the same work is going on during the recess as during the session. 397. Is any other assistance necessary during the recess than that of the Assistant-Librarian and Librarian ?—lt has not been so considered hitherto. 3—l. 10.

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398. The Chairman.'] Will you give the hours during which the library is open during the recess?— From 9 a.m. to 5 p.m., with the exception of Saturday, when we close at 4 p.m. 399. Is there any book or account kept of the persons who have the entree to the library during the recess?— Yes. 400. Mr. Dargaville.] Is there, or has there been, any loss of books and papers?—To a very small extent, considering. I made up a list last year of the books lost or missing. I dare say the loss since the library began would be found not to exceed 100 or 125 volumes of one kind or another. That is since 1865.- A number of these books can hardly be considered as lost, because books are always coming in. I think I am stating rather over than under the number actually lost. 401. In reference to the newspapers that are laid on the table, do we pay for them?—No; they are received from the newspaper proprietors as exchanges—that is, by supplying the library with their papers they are entitled to the parliamentary papers free. 402. Are you aware of the practice —a most objectionable practice, I think—that obtains of members abstracting papers that are laid there occasionally ?—During the session we miss them, but who takes them I could not say. 403. Do you think they are taken by any of the employes ?—No. 404. You are aware that copies of these papers are taken from time to time : can you refer to any particular paper more than another that is dealt with in this way ?—The New Zealand Herald. 405. An Auckland paper? —An Auckland paper. 406. Can you suggest any means by which that practice might be put a stop to ?—I could not. I have tried to see how it has been done, but I~failed to find.out. I have tried one or two plans to discover the way in which it was done. The New Zealand Herald is a double paper. Generally the inside is taken and the outside left. lam now gumming the paper in the middle. 407. The inside is the reading part ?—Yes. 408. Then, the library is loft without any copy of the New Zealand Herald? —You mean on the table ; there is a copy filed. 409. Can you suggest anything by which this irregularity could be detected or the practice stopped?—l do not think I could. Perhaps the Committee would allow me to explain :We get two copies of the papers, but both copies are not laid on the table; one is kept on a file, in case we should be short, and for convenience of binding. 410. You put that away so that it cannot be stolen? —Of course, if the Library Committee so directed that one must also be laid on the table when the other is taken away, it would have to be done. Mr. William Letham in attendance, and examined. 411. The Chairman.} Will you, Mr. Letham, state the date of your appointment, and your duties ? —I was appointed in 1873; my duties are to take charge of the Parliament Buildings. The power was given to me by both the Speakers to take charge of the buildings; to see that they are kept in thorough order, and to superintend the work of renovating before the House meets. I have charge of everything. 412. When you speak of Parliament Buildings, do you include the library?— Everything; but I have no access to the library after the library is closed. 413. What do you mean by closed?—lt closes at 5 o'clock. 414. You have charge of the whole block and the grounds?—l am in charge of the buildings and the grounds outside. Every week I have to make a report to Sir William Eitzherbert, the resident Speaker. 415. Do you include the furniture and fittings? —Yes. 416. What control have you over the parts of the building that are used as offices during the recess? —I keep the keys. 417. Are they locked up ? —Yes. 418. Are none of the offices in connection with the building used?— Not the Committee-rooms. The Hansard-room, is open ; one of the rooms of the Legislative Council is open; the library is open ; but none of the Committee-rooms, except when occasionally used by Government departments. 419. What are your duties during the session?— They are much the same, except taking charge of Bellamy's as well. 420. Will you explain what you mean by taking charge of Bellamy's ?—I have the supervision of the catering on behalf of the Committee. 421. That is, both of the table and bar, and the kitchen?— Yes. 422. You also keep the accounts? —Yes. 423. Bellamy's is under the management of a Committee?— Yes ; of each House. There is a Joint Committee ; then there are five members of each House for the management of Bellamy's alone. 424. Mr. Dargaville."] With reference to the carrying-on of Bellamy's, do the amounts paid by members from time to time suffice ? —They have done so ; we have received no remuneration from the Government for the last four years. 425. That is, you have no vote in aid from the public fund ? —None whatever. 426. And, as things are going on, you are not likely to require anything?- I do not think so. 427. Eor the sake of placing it on record, I will ask you this question : There seems to be an impression on the public mind that the wines and spirits consumed in Bellamy's do not pay duty. I am going to ask you whether you get any wines or spirits free of duty ? —We have to pay the usual duty the same as any one else—the same as any merchant in town, and always have done.

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428. Then, the Committee are to understand that the only contribution of the State towards Bellamy's are the coal, premises, furniture, and your salary?— Yes. 429. Any other person's salary ?—No. 430. "With reference to your salary : your salary is paid for the performance of all your duties, of which the superintendence of Bellamy's is only a small portion ?—Yes ; only a small portion. 431. About one-fourth or so?— About one-fourth. 432. For even the fourth of the year during which the session lasts, you have still your other ■duties ?—Yes ; I have plenty of duties to perform. 433. So that it would be nearer one-fifth than one-fourth in that case ?—Yes.

Monday, sth July, 1886. Captain House, Sergeant-at-Arms, in attendance, and examined. 434. The Chairman.] I find your duties scheduled in this return. [Schedule read.] Do yon also appoint the Messengers ?—I submit the names to the Speaker and the Speaker appoints. 435. Have you any duties during the recess?—No special duties. Mr. F. E. Campbell, Clerk of Parliaments, in attendance, and examined. 436. The Chairman.] You are Clerk of the House of Representatives ?—Yes. 437. Do you appoint the officers, clerks, and people of that kind employed?—l do not appoint the superior clerks. 438. But you appoint the assistants ?—The sessional clerks, yes. 439. Then, the messengers and people of that class? —I have now nothing to say to the appointment of that class, but I had for many years. The control has been taken out of my hands and placed in the hands of the Sergeant-at-Arms. 440. Do you know why that was done?— Partly to ease my duties. 441. Your own duties occupy some time during the recess? —Yes; some considerable time during the recess. Indeed, I may say that there is no time during the recess in which I have not certain duties to attend to. 442. You have two assistants, have you not ?—There are the First and Second Clerk-Assistant. There is also another permanent assistant—the Eecord Clerk. 443. Have those gentlemen much to do during the recess ? —I have stated in the return which you have before you somewhat of their duties. The First Clerk-Assistant has not much to do, virtually nothing but to complete the record of the proceedings of the House in Committee. 444. The Second Clerk-Assistant, is he required much during the recess ?—Yes. 445. Does he attend during office-hours in the building? —Yes. 446. Then, there is the Eeader ?—His duties are stated in the return furnished; it is also stated there that his services are only available ten days before the session and for ten days after. 447. Do you know anything of the Interpreters ; do you appoint them ?—They are appointed by the Speaker; their services are for the session only. A salary of £200 was at first allowed them for interpreting in the House only. Afterwards the duty of attending the Native Affairs Committee was laid on them, for which they are allowed £25 each. Subsequently, when it was ordered that the Native members' speeches in both Houses should be printed in Maori, a further sum of £20 each was allowed for that service to the Interpreters of both Houses. 448. I think you stated that you had the appointment of the Committee Beporters?—Not now; the Speaker has taken the appointment of Committee Eeporters into his own hands, 449. Mr. Garrick.] The Hon. Mr. Reynolds has given evidence before this Committee as to the estimates of the Legislative Department, and the persons who were responsible for them : are you able to say whether the estimates of the Legislature are subject to review by any person ? Whether they are to be considered the Speakers' estimates; and whether they are subject to review in any way?—l have seen Mr. Eeynolds's evidence. It is a new theory to me that they are the Speaker's estimates. It is quite true that he signs them, and sends them to the Government, but I always understood that the Government were responsible. The question was, I think, first raised sometime in 1879 or 1880. In consequence of the diversity of opinion on the subject, I obtained from Sir Erskine May a statement as to the practice of the Imperial Parliament. The following is an extract from a letter received from him: "House of Commons, 24th February, 1880.—The expenditure for the Houses of Parliament is authorized and controlled in precisely the same manner as that of other public departments. The estimates are prepared for the several departments and services in each House, and sent in to the Treasury. The Treasury may accept them as they are received, or arrange with the departments for any reduction ; but in either case they are presented to Parliament by Her Majesty's command, and upon the responsibilty of Ministers of the Crown. They are voted by the House of Commons, and included in the Appropriation Act, and are subject to the Audit Office like the votes for other 'departments. In neither House has the Speaker or any other officer any authority to vary the appropriation of any of the votes.' —T. Eeskinb May." 450. Does the same practice as you have just read obtain here ?—I think different Ministers have taken different views of the subject. I have heard it recently stated in the House that the estimates were the Speakers' estimates, and the Minister of the day declined to interfere or defend them. But I have been accustomed also for many years to hear Ministers express an opposite view; in effect, that they were responsible for the whole of the estimates. 451. Do I understand you that, as the practical result, the Speaker does furnish the estimates of legislative expenditure to the Minister ?—Yes. 452. And he either adopts them or not, as he pleases? —Yes. 453. Mr. Barron.) You have been a good many years in your present position as Clerk of the House of Eepresentatives ?—I have been a servant of the House for thirty-two years.

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454. Have you during that time observed any difference between one period and another in connection with this question of ministerial control over these estimates ?—Yes; I have just indicated that I have observed different views of the question. Sir Edward Stafford and Sir William Fox always stoutly maintained that they alone were responsible for the legislative estimates. Recently I have heard the expression of the opposite opinion—that the Speaker was responsible, and the Minister would decline to interfere. 455. Then, the whole question has been one of ministerial discretion, and there has been no direction by the House, and no opinion in the House as to who had the power to control or alter these estimates ? —There has been no direction from the House on the subject. It was the diversity of opinion that appeared to exist which induced me to go to Sir Brskine May to say what the practice of the Imperial Parliament was. 456. Then, in the beginning, the affairs of the colony were arranged in this way : that Ministers exercised full control over the whole of the estimates, that is, as constitutional Ministers they claimed to exercise also full control over these estimates, and there was no doubt on the subject ? —I think there was no doubt entertained at that time. Witness.] There is one matter which, with the permission of the Committee, I should like to mention. "When furnishing the return of payments made to Messengers it quite escaped my recollection that there was a payment made to one Messenger which did not appear on the return sent in to the Committee. This is an old Messenger, who has been the attendant of the Speaker for many years. The recess before last this old man, who is incapable of hard work and is not likely to obtain any employment, came to me in the hope that I might get him work. I went to the Colonial Secretary and got him some temporary employment. Subsequently the Colonial Secretary gave him employment in attending upon the Property-tax Department while they were located in this building for the performance of extra duties. During the last recess the Speaker authorized me to employ him in this building at 6s. a day. The Speaker has been trying to get him some employment, but as yet he has not succeeded. The amount paid to him was a trifle under £50. He was appointed to attend on Sir Maurice O'Eorke when Chairman of Committees, and since he was elected Speaker in 1879 he has been in attendance upon him every session. 457. Mr. harron.] Is he now so employed?— Yes; he is employed as Speaker's messenger this session.

Memorandum for the Chairman of the Select Committee on Expenditure on account of the Legislature. I should like to be permitted to add to tlie evidence I have given before the Committee a few words on the subject of the employment of the sessional Committee clerks. There is, no doubt, a considerable number of them, but I desire to point out that during the last month there have been from eight to ten Committees meeting daily, and all so nearly at the same time that it is seldom possible for a clerk to attend more than one Committee. Although these clerks are engaged before the session commences, they are only taken on pay as they are required, and they are discharged by degrees as the Committees report, and the work becomes slack towards the end of the session. It has been under consideration whether one man might not do the work of clerk of a Committee and shorthand-reporter, and the Reporters permanently attached to the department have done so on some occasions ; but it is found that, when a Committee is taking much evidence, it is as much as the reporter can do to get the transcript of his evidence completed by the next meeting of the Committee. In some of the Committees the clerical work, apart from the reporting, is very considerable (copying reports, petitions, &0., that are referred to the Government), so much so, that assistance has to be be given by the other clerks. I have, &c, F. E. Campbell, Bth July, 1886. Clerk', House of Representatives.

Monday, 19th July, 1886. Mr. A. T. Bothamley, Acting-Clerk of the Legislative Council, in attendance and re-examined. 458. The Chairman.] The Committee would like to know, Mr. Bothamley, if there are any arrangements made for checking the daily attendance of members of the Legislative Council ?— There is no record kept of the daily attendance of members ; so far as is possible the first attendance for each session is noted down, but merely by way of assisting members in recollecting at the end of the session the date of their first attendance. Members sign a certificate at the foot of the honorarium abstract, and on that the honorarium is paid. 459. I see that the certificate is scarcely in accordance with the Act: there is not any provision for deducting advances made on account of honoraria, or for other reductions ?—lf you will look at the form I have handed in it will be seen that there is a line for deductions in the body of the matter. I have not a copy of the Act with me. Practically, it is left to the honour of the members of the Legislative Council to say how long they were present, and the Clerk assists them to the best of his ability in telling them what leave of absence they have had. 460. Who keeps the accounts and fills in the vouchers for the payment of persons employed in the Legislative Council ?—The Clerk-Assistant, as a rule. 461. And who certifies to their attendance ?—The Speaker certifies to salaries, wages, and so on. 462. Does the Speaker certify during the recess?— Yes; he keeps the authorization-stamp locked up, and it can only be procured from him; therefore he must see each individual voucher before it is passed. 463. What books are kept in the Legislative Council ? —There is an account-book, and a small book kept to show the advances made to members on account of honoraria, both of which I now produce. The first contains an account of all honoraria paid, also of payments to clerks, reporters, messengers, &c.; the second book merely shows what advances have been made to members on account of honorarium, and some notes for my own guidance. 464. Who keeps these books?— The Clerk-Assistant. 465. Mr. Thompson.] Can you give us any information as to the amount allowed to members of the Legislative Council for travelling expenses in coming to Wellington for the session ?—The account-book contains the payments on account of travelling expenses ; they consist almost entirely of Union Steamship Company fares, and sometimes a coach-fare, or the fare for the wife of a member..

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There have been only three instances, I think, of members' wives having their passages paid since the resolution of the House of Eepresentatives in favour of their being paid was passed. 466. The Chairman.] Are there any travelling allowances made to members in respect of their daily attendance in the Legislative Council besides those for coming to Wellington ? —Certainly not; the Act does not allow any travelling expenses except for coming from the members' places of residence to Wellington and return thereto. 467. Who inspects the Committee-rooms in the Legislative Council during the session to see that they are properly kept ? —Each messenger has a certain number of rooms to look after, and the head messenger sees that they do their work, and assists them in doing it; he is responsible if anything goes wrong. Occasionally I look round the rooms myself. 468. Do you issue tickets to the galleries in the Legislative Council?— Except at the opening and closing of Parliament there are no tickets issued, except for the Speaker's gallery. 469. Who issues tickets to the Speaker's gallery ?—The Speaker himself. (Mr. Bothamley said he would lay before the Speaker the request of the Committee for a return of amounts paid to or on account of each member in each session of the present Parliament for travelling and other expenses.) Mr. F. E. Campbell, Clerk of the House of Eepresentatives, in attendance and re-examined. 470. The Chairman.] What accounts are kept of amounts paid to members of the House of Eepresentatives on account of travelling expenses ?—There are no such accounts kept in my office ; it is not an accounting office. We send in all claims to the Treasury, and the payments are made and accounts kept by that department. 471. I understand that you have the direction of the official work that is done in the House of Eepresentatives ?—Under the Speaker, yes. 472. When members apply for their travelling expenses, does that not come under your supervision ?—Yes; but these payments are made only under the signature of the Speaker. 473. How are they made when the Speaker is not here ?—The claims are all made out and approved before the Speaker leaves-Wellington. His signature is required by the Honorarium Act. I do not mean to say that the Audit and Treasury would refuse to pass an urgent payment in the Speaker's absence on my signature, but, as a rule, the Speaker's signature is necessary, and I forward claims to him. 474. There is no account kept in your office of amounts paid for travelling expenses ? —No. 475. Is there in any office?— Certainly; these accounts are all kept in the Treasury, and obtainable at any time ; so that there is no necessity for an account to be kept by me. 476. With regard to the clerks who are in attendance upon the different Committees, are you able to give a return of how their time is disposed of from day to day ?—I have had a memorandum made out by Mr. Otterson on the subject, but there is no record kept of the clerks' daily attendance. I keep as few of these men as possible, and they sometimes take one Committee and sometimes another as they happen to be unemployed. There are certain clerks who attend regular Committees and no others. For instance, the clerks to the Public Petitions Committee and the Native Affairs Committee have their time fully occupied, and do not attend any other Committees; the clerks attending the Waste Lands and Gold Fields Committees also are generally fully occupied. 477. How is payment made to these clerks, by the day or session ?—They are paid at the end of each month, while the session lasts. 478. Are they all paid at the same rate ? —There is one exception—the Clerk to the Public Petitions Committee, who gets £1 a day; this has been authorized for a good many years past; the others get 15s. a day, that is, for every week-day while employed. 479. Can you get for the Committee a return of the amounts paid on account of the travelling expenses of members of the House of Eepresentatives and their families during the present Parliament? —I dare say the Treasury will supply it to me, but it would be better if it was ordered by the House. It will take some considerable time to prepare it, as a great deal of time is taken up in passing these accounts; but I will make application for it, and let the Committee have it if possible. Memorandum referred to by Mr. Campbell. — Ordinary Duties of an Extra Clerk of the House of Representatives. Arrives at office at half-past 9 o'clock a.m. Prepares for meeting of Committee, collecting all documents, books, &c, required, and seeing that witnesses, reporters, &c, are in attendance if necessary. Attends Committee from half-past 10 or 11 o'clock until half-past 12 or 1 o'clock, takes down notes of minutes, and assists Chairman generally. Is then allowed an hour or less for lunch, provided that his work is not interfered with. Writes out reports for signature and presentation to the House at half-past 2 o'clock p.m. on same day if required. During afternoon writes up minutes and other books of his Committee ; makes precis of petitions referred to it; copies petitions referred to the Government; reads proofs of evidence ; corresponds with witnesses and others; summons Committees and witnesses ; and assists in general work of office. Leaves at half-past 5 o'clock p.m. Takes his regular turn of night-duty from a quarter-past 7 o'clock p.m., and also attends on any evening when required, or when his work is in arrear. Copies petitions referred to Government, and other documents ; reads Bills, Acts, and papers with the Reader ; writes out lists of Committees for following day for Order Paper and for posting in the lobbies ; remains in office until House rises if necessary. H. Ottebson, 17th July, 1886. Second Clerk-Assistant, House of Eepresentatives. Captain Hokne, Sergeant-at-Arms, in attendance and re-examined. 480. The Chairman.] The Committee would like to see what accounts are kept with regard to members' honoraria and advances made on that account, also with respect to travelling expenses ? —I do not keep any account of travelling expenses, but only of honorarium. I had this book ruled for the purpose. 481. This book shows the number of days a member is absent, then the deduction for each day, the total amount deducted, and the balance due to each member ?—Yes. 4—l. 10.

X. XL/

22

482. And there is also a column for the advances made during"the session? —Yes. 483. You also keep a rough day-book in which you note the advances ? —Yes. 484. How are these advances made ?—A form is filled in and certified to by the drawee ; it is then sent to the Treasury, and they send up a cheque. FS 485. Are there many advances made during the session ?—Yes"; there are a good many. 486. Have you any other books ? —There is a list of salaries of messengers, charwomen, constabulary, &c. 487. This is a book which contains the number of the voucher, the name of the claimant, the date of supply, the amount of abstract, the amount approved for payment, the date of approval, and the vote to which it is charged ?—Yes; there is also a list kept of the people employed each session as extra messengers, &c. [Produced.] 488. This is a list of the names of persons employed in each session, the rate of pay, and any other remarks in connection with their service that you make yourself ?—Yes. 489. You keep these books yourself?— Yes. 489 a. What is your duty with regard to inspecting committee-rooms?—To see that they are all cleaned out and kept in good order. 490. How do you issue tickets to the strangers' gallery ? —The sitting room is measured for eighty. I give the policeman tickets for one hundred; and there is another policeman in the gallery who receives the tickets, and shows people to their places. 491. This is merely for the purpose of preventing overcrowding. There is no check with regard to the admission of strangers?—No; except when there is great pressure, the policeman is instructed not to admit youths under fourteen. 492. You are also issuing tickets to the ladies' gallery this session? —Yes. 493. Why do you now issue the tickets instead of the Librarian ?—lt was a recommendation of the Library Committee. I believe, a good many years ago, the Sergeant-at-Arms used to issue these tickets, and the House Committee afterwards gave it to the Librarian; lately Sir Eobert Stout, I believe, suggested that it was more in my department, so it was handed over to me. 494. Who keeps the account of the members' attendance in the House?— The Chief Messenger keeps a daily account, and it is checked by me. There is a book for the purpose, which he keeps under lock and key. Mr. M. Cosgeave, Chief Messenger, in attendance and examined. 495. The Chairman.] You are Chief Messenger to the House of Eepresentatives ?—Yes. 496. You keep an account of the members' attendance in the House?— Yes. [Bookproduced.] 497. You mark down the attendance of each member in this book day by day?— Yes; when a member does not attend I leave a blank. 498. Have you any other books or accounts ?—Yes ; I keep an account of the stationery used in the House. 499. You also have charge of the order papers, have you not? —Yes; I keep them in my room; and also always keep a file of back copies for reference. 500. Have you any other book or accounts ?—This is a book in which I keep the Messengers' time; they enter their names every morning, and I make out; an abstract and send a copy of it to the Sergeant-at-Arms, who fills in the vouchers. I also issue stationery to the extra Clerks in the various committee-rooms-, and take receipts, and I supply the chamber personally. 501. How many rooms are there in use during the session?— There are forty-eight rooms. I have charge of them, and see that everything is right. [List of rooms produced and attached.] 502. During the time you have been employed as Chief Messenger here have you been employed in any other capacity?— No. 503. You discharged the duties of Sergeant-at-Arms for a while, did you not ?—Yes; in Dr. Greenwood's time : when he was ill I did the work for him. 504. What are your duties during the recess ?—I act as Messenger between the Clerk's office and the Printer, and perform the duties of an ordinary Messenger. There are also seven or eight libraries of blue-books in the building, which are under my charge ; they would rot if they were not looked after occasionally. 505. Are these rooms used during the recess? —The Property-tax Department has had the use of some of them for the last two years, and Mr. Barron uses the chamber occasionally for examinations. 506. Who keeps the keys of the rooms ? —I keep the keys of those that are in use. 507. Do you look after the furniture? —No; Letham keeps some of the keys, and looks after the furniture. I take an inventory of all the furniture every year. 507 a. Are you under Mr. Letham, or independent of him ? —I am independent of him. 508. Are you held accountable for the furniture and property left in the Parliament Buildings during the Ido not think so. I suppose the Custodian, Mr. Letham, is accountable. Of course I would be held accountable for the furniture in the rooms which are in use during the recess. 509. What are the hours of your attendance ?—Prom 8 a.m. until 4.30 p.m. in the recess; the offices are shut at 4.30. 510. During the session what are your hours ?—I generally come at 8.30 or 9 o'clock, and remain until the House rises, sometimes until 4in the morning. I send away a certain number of Messengers at 12 o'clock, but have to remain myself in case there should be anything wanted which I would have to supply. 511. Mr. Thompson.] How do you keep the attendance-roll of members ?—I enter the name of every member who attends in my book; if a member does not attend, a blank is left opposite his name, and I return him as absent, whether he has leave of absence or not; but, if a member comes in at all before the House rises, I put him down as having attended.

23

I.—lo,

APPENDICES.

I.—Return of Legislative Expenditure of the various Australasian Colonies.

4*—l. 10.

New Zealand: Estimates for Year ending 31st March, 1887. Victoria: Estimates for Year ending 30th June, 1886. New South Wales: Estimates for Year 1885. Queensland: Estimates for Year ending 30th June, 1886. South Australia: Estimates for Year ending 30th June, 1886. Tasmania: . For Year 1885. Legislative Coukcil: — President Chairman of Committees Clerk of Parliaments Usher of the Black Rod Clerk of the Council .. „ (also Clerk of the Executive Council, £100) Clerk-Assistant .. .. .. .. ■ „ and Sergeant-at-Arms Second Clerk-Assistant First Clerk Second Clerk Third Clerk Fourth Clerk Interpreter Clerk and expenses of the Legislative Council Extra clerical assistance auring session .. Chairman of Public Petitions Committee Shorthana-writer .. .. .. .. Witnesses' expenses .. „ also maintenance of electric light Expenses in connection with Select Committees Chief Messenger Messengers Doorkeeper Personal allowance to Messenger Uniform for Messenger Stablekeeper Office-cleaner Incidental expenses .. Postage, fuel, and incidental expenses, including Messenger and stationery for Shorthand-writers Stationery, furniture, and sundries Telegrams, printing, postage-stamps, h&c. Fuel and light .. .. .. .. .. ... £ s. a. 600 0 0 420 0 0 50o"o 0 35o"o 0 20o"o 0 200*0 0 150 0 0 50 0 0 150 0 0 £ s. d. 1,200 0 0 600 0 0 4,500"0 0 £ s. d. 1,200 0 0 500 0 0 700 0 0 400 0 0 50o"'o 0 400 0 0 300 0 0 250 0 0 200 0 0 550 0 0 £ s. a. 1,000 0 0 500 0 0 300"o 0 600 0 0* 400" 0 0 £ s. d. 600 0 0 600*0 0 425 - 0 0 £ s. a. 400 0 0 150 0 0 100* 0 0 400* 0 0 100 0 0 200"0 0 25 0 0 150"o 0 250 0 0 100 0 0 190 0 0 540 0 0 150 0 0 37o"o 0 16o"o 0 190' 0 0 30 0 0 90 0 0 20 0 0 7 0 0 30 0 0 I 250*0 0 75"o 0 50"o 0 105* 0 0 180 0 0 40"0 0 50 0 0 50* 0 0 80° 0 0 Totals 3,270 0 0 6,500 0 0 6,055 0 0 3,400 0 0 2,065 0 0 1,587 0 0 * Also Secretary, Refreshment-rooms Committee, £60.

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24

Return of Legislative Expenditure— continued.

New Zealand: Estimates for Year ending 31st March, 1887. Victoria: Estimates for Year ending 30th June, 1886. New South Wales Estimates for Year 1885. Queensland: Estimates for Year ending 30th June, 1886. South Australia: Estimates for Year ending 30th June, 1886. Tasmania: For Year 1885. lEGISLATIVE ASSEMBLY I — Speaker Chairman of Committees Clerk of Legislative Assembly „ and Librarian Clerk-Assistant Clerk-Assistant and Assistant-Librarian „ Sergeant-at-Arms Second Clerk-Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms Clerk Chairman of Public Petitions Committee „ Native Affairs Committee Clerk of Committees and Clerk of Private Bills Assistant-Clerk of Committees and Accountant Examiner of Standing Orders on Private Bills Reader „ and Telegraph-operator Assistant-Reader and Telegraph-operato." Telephone-clerk „ Clerk of the Papers Assistant-Clerk of the Papers Clerk of Records Interpreters Clerk of Printing Branch „ Committees .. „ Select Committees Clerks Extra Clerks and extra Committee Reporters Committee Reporters ... Sessional Clerk and Messengers Housekeeper (with fuel, light, and water) Messengers (chief) .. .. ... ... Messengers Select Committees (witnesses, reporters, and other expenses) Allowances to witnesses attending Select Committees .. Travelling expenses of Select Committees Doorkeepers (principal) -- .. .. — Doorkeepers .. .. .. Hallkeeper Hall-porter Engineer Assistant-engineer Lavatory-attendant .. t~\ffi~~ „l n r.«r.« £ s. a. 800 0 0 500 0 0 700 0 0 £ s. d. 1,500 0 0 800 0 0 1,000 0 0 £ s. d. 1,500 0 0 800 0 0 900 0 0 £ S. d. 1,000 0 0 500 0 0 600 0 0* £ s. a. 600 0 0 400 0 0 600 0 0 £ s. d. 400 0 0 250 0 0 406' 0 0 500"0 0 820"o 0 675*0 0 4O0"o 0 225' 0 0 450"0 0 250 0 0 55o"o 0 450 0 0 425 "o 0 45o"o 0 300*'o 0 200 0 0 106' 0 0 ioo'o 0 100 0 0 530°0 0 288 0 0 150"0 0 225 0 0 350 0 0 325 0 0 100 0 0 360 0 0 210 0 0 300"0 0 250*0 0 450 0 0 450'*0 0 350*0 0 320"0 0 40o"o 0 700 0 0 800"o 0 600 0 0 46' 0 0 760"0 0 187 0 0 325"o 0 108 0 0 22o"o 0 1,255 0 0 31o"o 0 37o"o 0 56' 0 0 400 0 0 100 0 0 133 0 0 1,597 0 0 200 0 0 188 0 0 204 0 0 172 0 0 ioo"o 0 165"o 0 221 0 0 156 0 0 90 0 0 Office-cleaner

L—lo.

25

p Errana-boy Extra Messengers and Police during session Uniform for Messengers Gardeners Parliament gardens, incidental expenses Preparation of indices Stationery, furniture, and sundries Telegrams, printing, postage-stamps, &c. Fuel, light, and water, including gas for great hall Stores, stationery, &c, and incidental expenses Contingencies 1,050° °0 0 234°°0 0 100 0 0 40 0 •• 150 0 0 220 0 0 70 0 0 50° 0 014 0 0 80° 0 0 " 850 "o 0 700 0 0 400 0 0 150 "o 0 i 185 0 0 f 100° 0 0 120 0 0 Totals 7,962 0 0 11,594 0 0 3,915 0 0 1,829 0 0 9,432 0 0 3,585 0 0 Legislative Council and Legislative Assembly :— Shorthand-writer in charge of Select Committees Parliamentary Committees and expenses of witnesses Interpreters, translation of speeches of both Houses „ „ Acts Officekeeper and Caterer (house, fuel, light, allowance for servants, &c.) „ for wages and board of servants Custodian, Parliament Buildings Parliamentary refreshment-rooms Steward and Housekeeper Assistant Housekeeper Watchman House servant Stableman Out-door servant 3 female servants .. .. .. .. Cook 3 waiters .. .. .. ... Seullery-maid Assistant stableman Occasional assistance during session Watering approaches to Parliament Buildings Messengers Hall-porter.. .. .. Doorkeeper and Messenger, £90 ; and personal allowance, £30 Gratuity to J. Gilligan Gas for Parliamentary Buildings, £300 and £249 lis. 4d. Gas and fuel .. .. .. ... Electric lighting, hot water, &e. Extra stationery 250 0 0 60 0 0 25 0 0 275 0 0 168 "o 0 •• - •• •• ' 250 0 0 85 0 0 150 0 0 135 0 0 135 0 0 135 0 0 225 0 0 200 0 0 420 0 0 75 0 0 135 0 0 500 0 0 50 0 0 550 0 0 250 0 0 •- I 300 "o 0 104 "o 0 104 "o 0 ■• 270 0 0 300 0 0 - 290° 0 0 104 0 0 -• . ■ 120° 0 0 •'. . • 50°0 0 549 11 4 900 0 0 300 0 0 800 "o 0 70°°0 0 132 0 0 60 0 0 •• ■ I Furniture, stationery, fuel, gas, and sundries | 365 'o 0 1 \ 600 0 0 j" 200 0 0 . Repairs to furniture .. .. ... 118 3 4 f no"o 0) ( 5,400 0 Of Telegrams, printing, postage-stamps, water, &c. Petty repairs, expenses of keeping grouna in order, &c. Incidental expenses Senior Messenger (refreshment-rooms) Allowance to contractor (refreshment-rooms) Fuel, light, and incidental expenses (refreshment-rooms) Waiters during session and incidentals (refreshment-rooms) 108 0 0 625 0 0 350 0 0 125°0 0 500 0 0 220 0 0 •• . 824°°0 0 • • Totals .. 1,978 0 0 1,883 0 0 2,690 0 0 4,161 14 8 7,045 0 0 320 0 0 * Also quarters ana light, valuea at £150; ana Secretar ;-, Board of Waterworks, £200.

I.—lo

26

Return of Legislative Expenditure— continued.

New Zealand: Estimates for Year ending 31st March, 1887. Victoria: Estimates for Year ending 30th June, 1886. New South Wales: Estimates for Year 1885. Queensland: Estimates for Year ending 80th June, 1886. South Australia: Estimates for Year ending 30th June, 1886. Tasmania: For Year 1885. Library: — Librarian ., Clerk to Librarian £ S. a. 300 0 0 250 0 0 100 0 0 600 0 0 £ s. d. 562 0 0 542 0 0 159 0 0 800 0 0 £ s. d. 450 0 0 300 0 0 225 0 0 450 0 0 100 0 0 100 0 0 45 0 0 £ s. a. 500 0 0 £ s. d. 330 0 0 £ s. d. Books and book-binding Periodicals, &c, for Council reading-room „ Assembly Insurance of books .. .. ■ .. .. Extra assistance in Library, and Mailman in session Parliamentary Librarian, further grant for compilation of Library Catalogue Library Attendant and Messengers Telegrams, printing, postages, &c. Incidental expenses .. 130 "o 0 1,000 'o 0 400 0 0 100° 0 0 60° 0 0 6 0 0 ■ •■ 564 0 0 400 "o 0 257 0 0 60 0 0 40 0 0 120° 0 0 550°°0 0 25°°0 0 Totals .. 1,380 0 0 3,177 0 0 1,695 0 0 1,900 0 0 1,087 0 0 286 0 0 Hansard :— Chief Reporter Reporters additional on Supplementary Estimates Stationery stores and incidental expenses .. .. Messengers 600 0 0 1,800 0 0 621 0 0 1,586 0 0 800 0 0 3,350 0 0 600 0 0 2,950 0 0 61 8 9 75 0 0 28 0 0 ■■ •• Totals .. 2,400 0 0 2,282 0 0 4,150 0 0 3,639 8 9 .. Printing of Hansard 2,700 0 0 Not detailed 2,500 0 0 3,200 0 0 1,000 0 0 Expenses op Members oe the Legislative Assembly Passages of Members Steamer fares of Members visiting northern ports 24,500 0 0 1,000 0 0 22,800 0 0 7,000 0 0 50 0 0 213 14 6 Totals 25,500 0 0 22,800 0 0 7,213 14 6 50 0 0 ••

I.—lo.

II.—Tabulated Return showing Number of Members, Hours of Sitting, &c., of the Principal Parliaments of the World.

27

Country. Population. <+-! r-t SB Z\ CD Time of Session. Duration of Session. Days of Sitting. Hour of Meeting. Hour of Separating (average). Average Duration of Sitting. H °f s Total No. No. of Days sit °J.,„ of of S $S£ e Hours Meeting. ™f of nfght. Sitti »SPayment to Members. Tenure of Office of Members. Great Britain and Ireland (1881)— House of Lords II. of Corns. (Sess. 1880) (Sess. 1881) (Sess. 1882) (Sess. 1883) (Sess. 1884) 35,241,482 ! 526 658 •• 27 weeks 31 „ 26 „ 26 „ 25 „ Monday, Tuesday, V Wednesday,Thursday, Friday ' I 4.15 p.m. .. 3.45 p.m. ; on Wed., 12 noon to 6 p.m. •• II. M. 8 36 9 5 8 51 9 1 8 49 121 154 162 129 126 H. ' M. 163 30 238 35 231 45 179 10 166 50 H. M. 1,040 5 1,400 5 1,434 27 1,163 30 1,102 50 Nil I Nil i' Life. 7 years. Feb. 15 to Aug. 25 I 1 .. ! I I Austria Proper (1S84) — Rcichsrath — Upper House Lower House 22,144,244 198 353 Nov. or Dec. to May or June - 3 to 4 months .. j 1 11 a.m. 11 a.m. 4 to 5 p.m. 4 to 5 p.m. Life. 6 years. •• £1 per day Hungary (1884)— Reichstag — House of Magnates.. House of Reps. 15,725,710 1 751 447 I October 10 a.m. 10 a.m. 2 p.m. 2 p.m. 4 mos., with holidays at Christmas and Easter ■- •• •• •• , 3 years. 5,720,807 — Belgium (1884)— Senate 69 Second Tuesday in Nov. to June or July Min. 40 days; av. 8 to 9 months, with recess for 3 weeks at Christmas and Easter 5 days a week 1 p.m. on opening of sess.; 2 p.m. at end of sess. 4.30 p.m. .. Nil Chamber of Reps. 138 £16 16s.permonth to members not residing where Parliament sits 8 years; half retire every 4 years. 4 years; half retire every 2 years. 2,045,179 i Denmark (1884)— Rigsdag— Landsthing First Monday in October Ditto Average for 5 yrs., 196 days Ditto 3.30 to 4.30 p.m. 5 to 6 p.m.; night - sittings rare 145 15s. per day 12 for life; 54 for 8 years. 3 years. 66 1.30 p.m. .. Folkething 102 1 p.m. 150 15s. France (1881)— Senate J37,672,048 — 300 Second Tuesday in January Ditto j- Min. 5 months .. ( 15,000 francs (£625) 75 for life ; 225 for 9 years. 4 years. Chamber of Deputies.. 557,' 5 days a week 2 p.m. 6 p.m. I 9,000 francs (£375) (colonial representatives allowed trav. expenses) J45,234,061 — I Germany (1880)— Bundesrath .. Reichstag •• 62 397 Jan. or Feb. to July 1 4 to 5 months .. 1 11 a.m. 11 a.m. 4 p.m. 4 p.m. App'nted each .sess. 3 years. •■ •• 9s. per day (free passes on railw'y s)

28

I.—lo

II.—Tabulated Return showing Number of Members, Hours of Sitting, &c., of the Principal Parliaments of the World— continued.

Country. Population. rH 0 Time of Session. Duration of Session. Days of Sitting. Hour of Meeting. Hour of Separating (average). Average Duration of Sitting, No. of Days of Meeting. Hours of Sitting aftor Midnight. Total No. of Hours of Sitting. Payment to Members. Tenure of Office of Members. Greece (1879)— Boule 1,979,453 H. M. H M. II. U. 4 years. 245 Nov. 1 .. 5 to 6 months £72 per sess.; £52 for extra sess. Italy (1881)— Senato Camera de Deputati .. I 28,459,451 Nov. 15 to cna of June •■ 270 50S 6 mos., with holidays at Christmas and Easter •• 2 p.m. 6 to 7 p.m. ■■ •■ Not paia directly; get free pass on railways, &c. Life. 5 years. Netherlands (1883)— Upper House 4,225,065 — I 39 Third Monday in September Ditto \ 4 to 5 months 4 30 30 £166 annually .. 9yrs.; one-thirdre-tire every 3 yrs. 4 yrs.; one-half retire every 2 yrs. Lower House I 86 5 days a week 11 a.m. 4to 4.30p.m. £166 Portugal (1881)— Cortes — Chamber of Peers .. Chamber of Deputies 4,806,554 I I I I ! 150 173 t Jan. 2 to April 2 8 months Daily (2 p.m. .. ) 12 noon .. 5 p.m. 5 p.m. ] Life. 4 years. •• 10s. per aay ; £22 4s. per month I i ! j Spain (1883)— Cortes — Senate 10,902,621 September or October Ditto L 4 months 180 for life; 180 for 5 years. 5 years. 360 431 Daily 2 p.m. 6 p.m. I Nil Congress of Deputies Sweden (1884)— DietFirst Chamber Second Chamber .. 4,644,448 9 years. 3 „ 139' 2161 Jan. 15 to May 15 \ Min. 4 months.. 10 a.m. 2 p.m. " ,1 Nil £67 per sess.; fined for non-attend. ! I ! I Norway — Storthing — Lagthing .. Odels thing "1,910,000 2 p.m., and from 5 to 1 15 3 0 28 55 35 0 164 0 28 86 First week-day in October Min. 3 months, but usually 4 to 5 months •• 10 a.m. to sometime! 8 p.m. !• 13s. 4a. per day 3 years. ■• I I i Switzerland (1880)— State Council National Council 2,846,102 ■ 44 145 First Monday in June - 3 months Daily 8 to 9 a.m. 2 p.m. 5 0 ( 10s. per day; fined for non-attend. 3 years. I i United States (1880)— Senate (Sess. 1885) ! II. of Reps. 76 325 Dec. 1, 1884, to March 3, 1885 • 15 weeks 6 days Daily f 12 noon .. 112 noon .. 4.30 p.m. .. (sometimes from 7.30 to 10 p.m.) £1,000 per annum £1,000 6 years. 2 „ • •

I.—lo.

II.—Tabulated Return showing Number of Members, Hours of Sitting, &c., of the Principal Parliaments of the World— continued.

29

Country. Population.! CO 3 *Fime of Session, Duration of Session. Days of Sitting. Hour of Meeting. Hour of Separating (average). Average Duration of Sitting. No. of Days of Meeting. Hours of Sitting after Midnight. Total No. of Hours of Sitting. Payment to Members. Tenure of Office of Members. New Zealand (1886)— Leg. Council (Sess. 1885) 614,812 ! 53 June 11 to Sep. 22 14 weeks 6 days (average for 5 years to 1885, 3J months) Tues., Wed., Thurs., Friday Tues., Wed., Thurs., Fri.; after July 27, Monday 2.30 p.m. .. II. M. 3 0 63 H. M. 5 5 H. M. 189 28 £210; £140 Life. H. of Reps. „ 9-5 2.30 p.m. .. 7 28 (av. for 5 yrs. to 1885, 7h. 27m.) 69 (av. for 5 yrs. to 1885, 67 aays) 79 3 515 33 £210; £140 3 years. Victoria' (188i)— Leg. Council (Sess. 1885) 961,276 I • I 42 June 17 to December 18 Ditto 26 weeks 3 days .. Tues., Wed., Thurs. ; 4.30 p.m. .. 3 27 38 0 40 131 23 One - third retir< every 2 years. 3 years. Leg. Assembly „ 86 I Tues., 4 p.m.; Wed. and Thurs., 3 p.m. On Nov. 18 hour of meeting on Wed. and Thurs. altered to 1.30 p.m. 5 48 (av. for nine sess. to 1880, 6h. 51m.) 76 (av. for nine sess. to 1880, 64 aays) 16 41 441 18 £300 921,268 — I New South Wales (1884)— Leg. Coun. (Sess. 1883-4) 58 October 9, 1883, to November 1, 1884 Ditto 1 year 26 days .. Wed., Thurs., and after Aug. 6, 1884, Tuesday Tues., Wed., Thurs., Friday 4 p.m. 2 44 99 Nil 271 8 Leg. Assom. „ 121 4 p.m. 7 21 (av. for 5 yrs. to 1882, 6h. 13m.) 180 (av. for 5vrs. to 1882, 96 days) 170 14 1324 39 Queensland (1884)— Leg. Council (Sess. 1885) Leg. Assembly „ 309,913 34 55 July 7, 1885, to Nov. 19, 1885 19 weeks 3 days .. Journals of Legislat Tues., Wed., Thurs. Friday After 1 Sept. ive Council 3 p.m. 1 p.m. 3 p.ni. not available °67 i 5 456° 20 Life. 5 years. 6°49 £200 .. I - •• 312,781 i i South Australia (1884) — Leg. Council (Sess. 1885) 24 June 4 to Dec. 11 i 27 weeks 2 days (■ 2 39 I. 5 39 av. to 1880, 4£h.) 47 Nil 124 49 Every 3 years those first on roll retire 3 years. H. of Assembly 52 Tues., Wed., Thurs. 2 p.m. 75 (av. to 1880, 82-3 days) 1 48 424 20 130,541 — Tasmania (1884)— Leg. Council (Sess. 1884) Leg. Assembly - 16 32 July 1 to November 24 21 weeks (average duration to 1880, 83 days) Tues., Wed., Thurs., Friday 4 p.m. 4 p.m. 3 3 5 7 (av. to 1880, 4h. 28m.) 45 69 (av. to 1880, 34 days) 0 5 8 6 137 21 353 20 6 years. 5 „ •■ Canada (1881)— Senate (Sess. 1885) H. of Com. 4,324,810 Life. 5 years. 77 213 Early in February 2f months to 3 months Mon., Tues., Wed., Thurs., Friday 3 p.m. 8°°0 •• Cape of Good Hope (1883) Leg. Council (Sess. 1880) H. of Assembly „ 1,027,168 22 74 Tues., Thurs. Mon., Wed., Friday 2 p.m. .. j 2 p.m. to 6 p.m. to 11 6 p.m. p.m., and 8 5°49 °59 344° 0 Are paid 7 years. 5 „ •• p.m.

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lII.—LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL. (a.) Duties of Officebs of the Council. The Clerk of the Council. To attend at the office from 10 o'clock a.m. until the Council rises, and subsequently until the work is done. To keep minutes of all proceedings and orders of the Council. To read the Journals, compare them with the minutes, and see that they are correct. To sign all orders of the Council, and forward them to the proper quarter. To read whatever is required to be read in the Council. To take divisions in the Council and in Committees of the whole Council. To see to the safe-keeping of the records and other documents of the Council. To direct the circulation of all Bills and papers. To conduct the correspondence under direction of the Speaker. To prepare the Order Paper. To certify to the correctness of accounts, attend the Speaker therewith, and forward them. To call the Speaker's attention to any question likely to require his ruling. To look up precedents for the Speaker. To keep the schedule of Bills introduced into the Legislative Council. To be responsible for the correctness of messages to the House of Representatives. To be responsible for the proper execution of the business of the office. To read all Bills introduced into the Legislative Council; and, before they are read the third time, to mark any provisions that may appear to infringe on the privileges of the House of Representatives. To give constant explanations to members, to whom respectful and immediate attendance has to be paid. To see the Journals of the Council, together with the Appendix and Schedules thereto, through the press, and to prepare an index thereto. The Clerk-Assistant. To attend at the office from 10 a.m. until the Council rises, and subsequently until the work is done. To attend all Committees of the whole Council, and take minutes of proceedings. To read Bills and documents in Committee. To write the Journals of Committees of the whole Council. To prepare copies of all Bills for the printer after they are reported from Committee. To see that Bills as reported from Committee are correctly printed and circulated. To prepare Bills for third reading. To wait on the Chairman of Committees, and read over Journals with him. To look up precedents for the Chairman of Committees. To write messages, and carry them to the House of Eepresentatives. To keep accounts, and prepare vouchers for the Speaker's certificate. To prepare honorarium vouchers, and vouchers for advances of honorarium to members. To copy letters. .To assist in taking ballots in the Council. To assist members in any way he is asked. To assist in seeing the Journals, Papers, and Appendix through the press. To assist generally in the Council and in the office. To prepare index of papers presented to the Council. To prepare himself to take the place of the Clerk by studying the forms of the Council, and taking note of rulings and precedents. The Second Clerk-Assistant. To act as Clerk of the Bill and Paper Office. To keep charge of all Bills and papers. To prepare for the press, read, and correct all returns and papsrs, evidence taken before Select Committees, reports, &c. To act as Secord Clerk. To keep schedules of petitions, papers, and reports, and of Select Committees. To write the Journals from the Clerk's notes. To prepare orders and resolutions of the Council. To arrange all Select Committee work, and exercise general supervision over the extra Clerks. To attend to and keep in order the Bills, papers, petitions, and reports upon the table of the Council. To attend Select Committees of which the Speaker is Chairman, and other Committees. To assist generally as instructed by the Clerk.

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The Interpreter. To attend the Legislative Council whenever Parliament is in session. To attend the Native members in the Council, and to interpret their speeches, and to keep them informed on whatever is before the Council for consideration. To translate all Bills affecting the Native people, and to see that they are correctly printed, together with reports and papers laid upon the table. To translate all petitions and letters from the Natives. To attend the Native Affairs Committee, and interpret for the Native members and any Native witness who may be called. To attend on the Native members, and to read to them any correspondence they may receive, and to write their replies thereto when requested to do so. To translate any Bills, letters, or other papers which the Hon. the Speaker may refer to him at any time, whether Parliament is in session or not. The Shorthand Reporter, To attend at the office each day during the session. To attend Select Committees, and to take shorthand notes of the evidence of witnesses wl:o may be examined at such Committees, and to transcribe the same. If not required in the Legislative Council on any particular day, and an extra shorthand writer is required in the House of Eepresentatives, to attend Committees of the House of Eepresentatives, and take shorthand notes of the evidence of witnesses, and transcribe the same. To attend Joint Committees, consisting of representatives of both branches of the Legislature, and to take down and transcribe the evidence of witnesses in the same manner. The Chief Messenger. To attend from 8 o'clock a.m. to 10 p.m. If the Council sits beyond that hour, to remain till all business is finished. To distribute all Bills and papers in the pigeon-holes. To superintend the extra messengers, and see that they perform their duties properly, and to assist them in cleaning the rooms. To announce the Hon. the Speaker's entry to the Council Chamber. To ring the division-bell. To act as doorkeeper. During the recess to keep the offices clean, and have them ready by 9.30 a.m., and to remain on duty till 4 p.m. The Extra Clerks. To attend Select Committees and take minutes of their proceedings. To send copies of evidence to witnesses for correction. To assist in reading the evidence, when it is ordered to be printed. To issue notices of meetings of Select Committees. To write correspondence arising out of work of Select Committees. To write reports of Select Committees. To procure from House of Eepresentatives Bill Office copies of all Bills as introduced in the House of Eepresentatives. To make copies of the Journals of the Council and of Committees of the whole Council; also copies of all reports. To copy anything required to be copied.

(b.) Number of Bills introduced into the Council.

Year. Public. Private. Total. Year. Public. Private. Total. .860 ... .861 ... .862 ... .863 ... .864 ... .865 ... .866 ... .867 ... .868 ... .869 ... .870 ... .871 ... .872 ... .873 ... 51 40 54 46 19 87 89 108 102 92 119 103 93 115 7 4 4 3 1 58 44 54 50 19 87 92 109 102 92 122 107 96 118 1874 1875 1876 ... 1877 1878 ... 1879 (j st Sess.) 1879 (2nd Sess.) 1880 ... 1881 ... 1882 ... 1883 ... 1884 (1st Sess.) 1884 (2nd Sess.) 1885 ... 110 119 131 180 135 9 109 103 109 135 100 4 94 111 2 5 1 2 2 6 3 2 7 4 112 124 132 182 135 11 115 106 111 142 104 4 98 117 3 4 3 3 4 6

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(c.) Meetings of the Legislative Council for Session 1885.

(d.) Return showing Amounts paid to or on account of each Member of the Honourable Legislative Council in each session of the present Parliament for Travelling and other Allowances. 1. Amounts paid for Travelling Allowance.

Note. —Of the above the total amounts paid direct to members for cost of passages and incidental expenses defrayed by themselves was in 1884, 16s. od.; in 1885, £20 16s. ;in 1880, nil. 2. Amounts paid for Othee Allowances.—Nil. A. T. BOTHAMLEY, 20th July, 1886. Acting Clerk, Legislative Council,

Date. Length of Sitting. Date. Length of Sitting. 1885. Thursday, June 11 Friday, „ 12 Tuesday, „ 16 Wednesday, „ 17 Thursday, „ 18 Friday, „ 19 Tuesday, „ 23 Wednesday, „ 24 Thursday, „ 25 Friday, „ 26 Tuesday, „ 30 Wednesday, July 1 Thursday, „ 2 Tuesday, „ 7 Wednesday, „ 8 Thursday, „ 9 Friday, " „ 10 Tuesday, „ 14 Wednesday, „ 15 Thursday, ,, 16 Friday, „ 17 Tuesday, . „ 21 Wednesday, „ 22 Thursday, „ 23 Friday, „ 24 Tuesday, „ 28 Wednesday, „ 29 Thursday, „ 30 Friday, „ 31 Tuesday, August 4 Wednesday, „ 5 Thursday, „ 6 Hour 0 0 1 2 1 1 1 1 2 0 0 0 0 1 2 2 0 1 2 2 0 2 1 2 2 1 2 2 2 2 2 2 Minutes 45 25 40 20 55 35 55 55 25 20 50 10 20 40 15 45 40 25 25 0 35 20 5 15 10 45 35 35 30 25 30 30 1885. Friday, August 7 Tuesday, „ 11 Wednesday, „ 12 Thursday, „ 13 Friday, „ 14 Tuesday, „ 18 Wednesday, „ 19 Thursday, „ 20 Friday, • „ 21 Tuesday, „ 25 Wednesday, „ 26 Friday, „ 28 Monday, „ 31 Tuesday, September 1 Wednesday, „ 2 Thursday, „ 3 Friday, „ 4 Monday, „ 7 Tuesday, „ 8 Wednesday, „ 9 Thursday, „ 10 Friday, „ 11 Monday, „ 14 Tuesday, „ 15 Wednesday, „ 16 Thursday, • „ 17 Friday, „ 18 Saturday, „ 19 Monday, „ 21 Tuesday, „ 22 Hour 2 4 4 2 4 2 3 2 10 3 2 0 3 5 4 6 2 2 1 3 4 2 5 5 4 7 7 8 6 0 Minute 30 15 55 30 45 25 50 30 0 45 20 25 20 30 55 3 25 30 30 30 30 25 40 20 15 20 10 40 . 20 30 Total length of sittings 181 W. Devenish,

Name of Member. 1884. 1885. 1886 (Incomplete.) Name of Member. 1884, 1885. 1886 (Incom* plete.) Hon. Mr. Acland Hon. Captain Baillie Hon. Mr. Barnicoat Hon. Mr. Bathgate Hon. Mr. Bonar Hon. Mr. Brandon Hon. Colonel Brett Hon. Mr. G. Buckley .. Hon. Mr. P. A. Buckley.. Hon. Mr. Campbell Hon. Mr. Chamberlin .. Hon. Mr. Dignan Hon. Sir W. Pitzherbert Hon. Captain Fraser Hon. Dr. Grace Hon. Mr. Hart Hon. Mr. Henderson Hon. Mr. Holmes Hon. Mr. Johnson Hon. Mr. Johnston Hon. Captain Kenny Hon. Mr. Kohere Hon. Mr. Lahmann Hon. Mr. Mantell Hon. Mr. Martin Hon. Mr. Menzies Hon. Mr. Miller Hon. Mr. McLean Hon. Captain Morris Hon. Mr. Ngatata Hon. Mr. Nurse £ s. d. 2 0 0 2 16 6 3 10 0 £ s. d. 4 0 0 2 10 0 10 0 6 0 0 10 5 0 £ s. a. Hon. Mr. Oliver Hon. Mr. Peacock Hon. Mr. Peter Hon. Mr. C. J. Pharazyn Hon. Mr. R. Pharazyn .. Hon. Dr. Pollen Hon. Mr. Reeves Hon. Mr. Reynolds Hon. Mr. J. C. Richmond Hon. Major M. Richmond, C.B. Hon. Mr. Robinson Hon. Mr. Russell Hon. Mr. Scotland Hon. Mr. Shephard Hon. Mr. Shrimski Hon. Mr. Stevens Hon. Mr. Swanson Hon. Mr. Taiaroa Hon. Mr. Walker Hon. Mr. Waterhouse .. Hon. Sir F. Whitaker, K.C.M.G. Hon. Sir G. S. Whitmore, K.C.M.G. Hon. Mr. Wigley Hon. Mr. Williams Hon. Mr. Williamson Hon. Mr. Wilson Hon. Mr. Wooa £ s. d. 8 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 £ s. d. 4 00 4 0 0 £ s. a. 1 10 0 4 0 0 4 10 0 18 0 0 4 00 2 0 0 4 00 11 0 0 3 0 0 4 10 0 3 0 0 12 4 0 2 0 0 4 0 0 1 10 0 5 10° 0 1 10° 0 4 10 0 11 0 0 4 00 5 10 0 5 10° 0 4 00 2 00 8 00 4 00 5 5° 0 5 10° 0 11 6' 0 6 0 0 5 10° 0 3 0 0 4 10° 0 4 00 4 0 0 7 70 4 0 0 2 00 100 8 00 11 14° 0 5 10° 0 5 10 0 4 00 0 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 15 11 0 2 6' 0 2 0 0 10 10 0 4 0 0 14 0 0 9 0 0 6 0 0 4 6' 0 13 10 0 6 10° 0 5 10 0 19 10° 0 4 00 Totals 164 16 6 175 6 0 78 10 0

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IV.—HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES. (a.) Officers, &c.

Officers, &c., on the General Establishment. —Legislative Council and House of Representatives.

(&.) Duties of Officebs of the House of Eepeesentatives and Geneeal Establishment. Clerk, during Session —Eecords all proceedings of the House; signs all orders of the House; endorses Bills, and writes all messages to the Legislative Council; prepares and corrects the Order Paper ; has the custody of all records and documents belonging to the House ; is generally responsible for the regulation of matters connected with the business of the House ; assists the Speaker and members in regard to questions of order and proceedings of the House. Also performs the duties of Clerk of Parliaments, which consist chiefly in the final preparation and comparing of Bills after they have passed both Houses, endorsing the same, and laying them before the Governor for the Eoyal assent. During Becess —Supervises preparation and printing of Journals and Appendices, and conducts any correspondence that may occur connected with the business of the House; has certain duties in connection with the Eegulation of Elections Act; passes and approves accounts for payment. 6—l. 10.

Name. Oflice. Date of Appointment. Salary. Duties. Permanent. Sir G. M. O'Rorke .. E. Hamlin F. E. Campbell .. G. Friena H. Otterson -C. G. Home E.D.Bell A. J. Rutherfura .. F. S. Hamlin G. Mair J. L. Kinsella Speaker Chairman of Committees Clerk Clerk-Assistant Secona Clerk-Assistant Sergeant-at-Arms Reaaer Record Clerk Interpreter (Chairman of Committees,) \ Aug. 16, 1871 [Present office, July 11, 1879) May 30, 1882 (June 24, 1853 .. 1 ' Present office, July 11, 1854) Clerk, Audit Office, May,) • 1854 [ Present office, June, 1862 J (Reader, Oct., 1872 ) (Present office, Oct. 27, 1875 j" Aug. 1, 1880 June 8, 1876 June 12, 1879 July 1, 1883 Aug. 11, 1884 Aug. 7, 1884 ( Hansard, July, 1867 ) {Present office, May 13, 1886J (Clerk, Treasury, Nov. 1,18751 "I Present office, May 13, 1886)" 1863 £ \ 800 500 700 500 450 250 225 250 225* 225* 150 W. Mitchell Committee Reporter .. 150 <D A O fl a ■45 c3 J. P. Kennedy 150 M. Cosgrave Messenger 187 (4s. per day extra auring session) Sessional. A. P. Douglas A.B. Jones J. M. Wayland A. F. Lowe A. E. Grimstone R. Kent .. Committee Clerk 15s. per aay 15s. „ 15s. „ £1 15s. „ 15s. J. Smith .. T. H. Burnett E. W. Kane J. Goodfellow J. Watkins (Messengers, &c, Clerk and Accountant to House Committee Copying Clerk Committee Clerk 10s. „ 15s. „ 15s. „ 15s. „ ' 15s. „ attached.) * And £20 for translation of Maori members' speeches from Mansard.

Permanent. C. C. N. Barron .. E. Downey Chief of the Hansard Staff Hansard Reporter July 9, 1867 July, 1874 (Committee Reporter, April,) \ 1876 \ (Present office, July 1, 1879 J (Committee Reporter, July,) \ 1876 \ (Present office, July 1, 1879 J (Committee Reporter, May,) -! 1882 I (Present office, June, 1884 J June, 1884 May 13, 1886 | June, 1865 May, 1873 July, 1869 £ 600* 300 J. G. Grey ir a • • 300 <D rd o (J 0 CD a -t~> c3 xn W. A. Parkinson .. 300 G. Adams 300 S. Spragg .. W. Berry, jun. H. E. de B. Brandon Examiner of Standing Orders on Private Bills 300 300 150 (and 7s. 6a. per day for attending Local Bills Committee) 275 (with house, fuel, and gas) 168 (Is. per day extra during session) / W. Letham J. Keefe (■Library officials Custodian Night Watchman attached.) * Also preparation of papers, &c, for Civil Service Examination Board, 1885-86, £112. F. E. Campbell, Clerk, House of Eepresentatives.

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First Clerk-Assistant, during Session —Attends Committees of the whole House and records theproceedings, transcribing the same in detail in the Committee proceedings; furnishes the Chairman of Committees with corrected copies of Bills and resolutions for report to the House. During Recess —Completes the record of Committee proceedings. : Second, Clerk-Assistant, during Session —Writes the Journals of the House from the Clerk's notes, also all orders of reference for Select Committees, and orders of the House for returns, &c.; supervises the work of the Committee Clerks; keeps the office books. During Recess —Assists in the printing of the Journals and Appendices, and prepares the indices and tables connected therewith ; prepares acsounts for payment. Reader —Examines and corrects the proofs of all Bills and papers printed during the session; keeps tabular statements of proceedings on Bills, and schedule of Select Committees, and the business transacted by each, &c.; reprints Bills as amended in the House for transmission to the Council; assists the Clerk of Parliaments in the final printing of Bills for the Eoyal assent, and assists generally in the work of the office. His services are available for ten days prior to and after the session. Record Clerk —Has charge of the printed papers and Bills, and the issue thereof diiring the session, and assists generally in the work of the office. Danng Recess-r- Assists in reading proofs of Journals, &c, and generally in the business of the office. Sergeant-at-Arms —General supervision of House during session, and inspects committee-rooms, &c; gives notice of House going to prayers to all Committees; takes strangers into custody, if in parts of the House appropriated to members; introduces Legislative Councillors and Judges when attending to be examined; attends with mace when prisoner is in custody at bar of the House tobe examined; also issues tickets of admission to the strangers' galleries in the House; keeps custody of members adjudged guilty of contempt; keeps account of members' honoraria, and pays advances to members ; appoints extra messengers, charwomen, &c, and is responsible for payment of the same; regulates duties of extra messengers, Armed Constabulary, and charwomen ; and acts as Speaker's executive officer. Committee Reporters —Take shorthand notes of all evidence given before Select Committees, and write out reports of same for witnesses' signatures ; assist Committee Clerks when not occupied in reporting evidence. Chief Messenger —Has immediate charge of Messengers during session ; keeps attendance roll of. members; has charge of stationery, &c.; is employed as Messenger to the department during recess. Committee Clerks —Attend Select Committees, and keep a record of proceedings; take night duty in rotation; assist generally with clerical work of the office.* Copying Clerk —Makes copy of Journals for printer; copies other documents if required. Chief of Hansard Staff- —Has control of Hansard staff during the session ; reports debates in Legislative Council and House of Eepresentatives, and supervises printing and indexing of the same. Hansard Reporters—Report debates in Legislative Council and House of Eepresentatives, and assist in supervising printing and indexing of the same. Examiner of Standing Orders on Private Bills. — Receives and examines petitions for and against all private Bills ; supervises the initiation and passage of private Bills through all their stages in both Houses ; attends Committees dealing with the same, and keeps a record of their proceedings ; attends Committees of Selection, Standing Orders on Private Bills, and Joint on Bills; also acts as Clerk to Local Bills Committee of the House of Eepresentatives. Custodian —Has immediate charge of Parliament Buildings, and grounds, and property thereon, throughout the year. During the session performs the duties of steward and providore to Bellamy's, and has control of waiters and other servants. Has charge of wines and other stores belonging to House Committee, and keeps account of the same during recess. Night-watchman —ls intrusted with sole charge of Parliament Buildings and grounds at night throughout the year. Looks after the charwomen employed during the session.

(c.) List of Rooms connected with the House of Representatives (referred to in Mr. Cosgrave's Evidence).

No. of Rooms Description. No. of Kooms Description. South wing— Ground-floor 3 2 1 3 1 1 1 4 1 1 1 Mr. Speaker's rooms. Major Campbell's rooms. Mr. Otterson's room. Committee rooms. Mr. Hamlin's room. Mr. Friend's „ Mr. Barron's „ Committee rooms. Record room. Temporary clerks' room. Committee reporters' room. Centre — contd. Ground-floor 1 1 1 3 1 1 2 4 2 1 1 1 1 1 Interpreters' room. Bill and Paper Office. Messengers' room. Committee rooms. Press reporters' room. Private Bill Office. Ladies' rooms. Committee rooms. Whips' „ Mr. Ballance's room. Mr. Richardson's room. Mr. Larnach's „ Mr. Reynolds's „ Chamber of the House. First floor First floor Top floor North wing Ministers' rooms Centre— Ground-floor 2 1 2 2 1 Cabinet rooms. Sir Julius Vogel's, " private." Waiting rooms. Sergeant-at-Arms' rooms. Press reporters' room. Total .. 48 * Vide also memon mdum on ;e21.

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(d.) Return showing Number of Extra Messengers employed in the House of Representatives during Session.

(c.) Return showing Number of Armed Constabulary doing Duty during Session.

(f.) Return showing Number of Charwomen employed in House of Representatives during Session.

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Name. Office. Date of Appointment. Salary. Remarks. McCarthy, Alexander Mooney, William McNamara, John ... Wright, Ephraim Scarf, Joseph Devine, James Mouat, William Walters, Sydney Greig, Michael McKinstry, William Barrett, James Eobb, William Hamling, Henry Extra messenger it a a it n it 19 July, 1877 11 July, 1879 19 July, 1877 11 July, 1879 26 July, 1878 4 June, 1884 14 June, 1883 16 June, 1885 4 June, 1884 1 Aug., 1885 12 May, 1886 12 May, 1886 12 May, 1886 10s. per diem a » it tt A bonus of £5 at the end of the session, recommended by Mr. Speaker and usually voted by the House. A complete suit of uniform supplied every alternate session, vest and trousers every session. tt tt tr N a tt tt rr a tt tt

Name. Office. Date of Appointment. Salary. Morley, George Walker, Charles Breen, Timothy Gallagher, James Minogan, Patrick Strickland, David Sergeant, Armed Constabulary ... Constable, Armed Constabulary ... a June 11, 1886 2/ per day. 1/6 ,, 1/6 „ 1/6 „ 1/6 „ 1/6 „ a — it •'• n . • • •

Name. Date of Appointment. Salary. Hours employed. Hughes, Hannah ... Sheehan, Bridget ... Byan, Eliza O'Connor, Elizabeth Maloney, Anne Fraze, Sophia Fraze, Emily Cochrane, Ellen ... Clarke, Amelia Noon, Mary Ann ... 1876 1880 1880 1879 1875 1882 1882 1882 1882 1885 4s. per diem ... tt "• tt 4J hours. ft ft tt tt it ir a tt It tt • • • tt

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(g) Schedule of Travelling Allowances of Members of the House of Representatives, Sessions 1884 (No. 2), 1885, 1886.

V.—GENEEAL ASSEMBLY LIBEAEY. Salabies and Bonuses paid to Officees of the Libeaey and Othees. [Duties as stated on page 37.] I. Permanent Staff. £ s. d. £ s. d. 1. Librarian (appointed 1885) ... ... ... ... 300 0 0 2. Chief Assistant-Librarian (appointed 1871) ... ... 250 0 0 3. Second Assistant-Librarian (appointed 1878) ... ... 100 0 0 650 0 0

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* Passage. tTravoll ing expenses. t Coach fare. fare. II ;ra TCiR] Name of Member. 1884. 1885. lssn. (Incomplete.) Name of Member. 18S4. 1885. 1886. (Incomplete.) Mr. Allwright* Mrs. Allwright* Hon. Major Atkinson* .. Mr. Bevan* t { || Hon. Mr. Ballance* Mr. Bradshaw* Mrs. Bradshaw* Mr. Barron* Mr. J. C. Buckland* Mr. W. F. Buckland* .. Mr. Brown* t § Mrs. Brown* t § Hon. Mr. Brycet t Mr. Brucef Mr. Cowan* Mr. Cowanf Mr. Coster* Mrs. Coster* Mr. Cadman* t t Mr. Conolly* Mr. Dargavillo* f Mrs. Dargaville* Mr. Dodson* Mr. Duncan* Mr. Fergus* Colonel Fraser* Mr. Fulton* Mr. Garrick* Mr. Gillies* Mr. Gore* Mr. Grace* J t ■ • Sir G. Grey* Mr. Grigg* Mr. Guinness* J || Mrs. Guinness* J Mr. Hakuene* t Mrs. Hakuene* Mr. Hamlin* t ■ • Mr. Harper* Mrs. Harper* Mr. Hatch* Mr. H. Hirst* Mr. Hislop* Mrs. Hislop* Mr. Hohbs* Mr. Holmes* Mrs. Holmes* Mr. Hursthouse* Mr. W. J. Hurst* Mrs. Hurst* Mr. Ivess* Mr. Joyce* Mr. Kerr* Mrs. Kerr* Mr. Lake Mr. Lance* Hon. Mr. Larnach* Mrs. Larnach* Mr. Levestam Mrs. Levestam* Mr. Locke* Mr. Macandrew* Mr. Macarthur* t £ s. a. 4 10 0 4 10 0 £ s. d. 4 0 0 4 0 0 2 0 0 24 0 0 £ s. d. Mrs. Macarfchurf t Mr. M. J. S. Mackenzie* Mr. M. J. S. Maokenziet Mr. J. McKenzie* Mr. McMillan* Mr. Menteath* { t II Mr. Mitchelson* Mr. Moat* t • • Mr. Montgomery* Mr. Moss* t ■ ■ Mr. Moss§ Mrs. Moss* Mr. O'Callaghan* Mrs. O'Callaghan' Mr. O'Conor* t .. Mr. Ormond* t } Hon. Sir Q. M. O'Borke.. Lady O'Rorke*.. Mr. Peacock* Mr. Pearson* Mrs. Pearson* Mr. Pere* Mrs. Pere* Mr, Pratt* Mr. Prattf Mr. Pyke* Mr, Reese* Mr. G. ¥. Richardson* .. Hon. E. Richardson* Mr. Rolleston* Mr. Ross* Mrs. Ross* Mr. Reid* Captain Russell* J Mr. Samuel* 11 Mrs. Samuel* J.. Mr. Seddon* till Mr. Sheehan* Mrs. Sheehan* Mr. Smith* t . . Mrs. Smith* ft Mr. W. J. Steward* Mr. W. D. Stewart* Hon, Sir R. Stout* Mr. Sutter* Mr. Taylor* Mr. Te Ao Mr. T. Thompson* Mr. J. W. Thomson* Hon. Mr. Tole Colonel Trimblet } Mr. Turnbull* Hon. Sir J. Vogel Mr. Wakefleld* Mr. Wakefield|| Mr. Walker* Mr. W. White* Mr. 3. B. Whyte* Mr. Wilsonf | .. Mrs. Wilsont £ s. d. 4 18 9 4 0 0 5 0 0 4 10 0 4 10 0 13 10 0 5 10 0 6 17 6 4 0 0 £ s. d. 3 15 8 2 0 0 £ s. d. 23 10 0 15 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 5 10 0 11 15 0 12 10 0 3 5 0 6 0 0 4 0 0 13 10 0 5 10 0 6 18 0 4 0 0 6 18 0 1 l6" 0 4 00 5 10 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 5 10 0 10 10 0 11 0 0 7 15 0 7 0 0 116' o 1 10 0 5 00 5 12 6 1 l6' 0 5 10 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 9 0 0 4 12 6 2 0 0 5 10 0 4 10 0 4 10 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 13 12 6 10 0 7 7 0 7 6' 0 13 13 6 1 10 0 14 5 0 12 19 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 2 10 0 4 0 0 5 0 0 2 0 0 7 5 0 4 17 6 5 10 0 7 10 0 4 10 0 4 10 0 8 10 0 5 l6' 0 4 0 0 5 10 0 2 0 0 4 0 0 4 10 0 6 5 0 6 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 2 0 0 10 0 10 5 0 5 10 0 1 10 0 2 0 0 4 0 0 4 5 0 16 0 0 2 0 0 5 3 0 5 10 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 h' 0 2 00 4 0 0 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 10 0 2 0 0 8 0 0 4 6' 0 5 10 0 2 10 0 15 10 0 8 0 0 8 10 0 4 0 0 12 9 7 5 10 0 2 0 0 4 0 0 8 0 0 4 0 0 4 10 0 5 10 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 19 15 0 4 5 0 4 5 0 5 5 0 2 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 14 0 0 12 0 0 3 17 0 3 0 0 3 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 4 0 0 2 0 0 5 10 0 4 0 0 1 10 0 4 0 0 6 10 0 4 17 6 2 13 3 18 2 23 10 0 3 00 5 10 0 3 0 0 8 10 0 4 0 0 2 00 2 0 0 6 10 0 9 3 0 4 0 0 4 10 0 2 0 0 4 0 0 2 12 6 4 00 4 0 0 2 00 1 10 0 5 10 0 4 10 0 4 0 0 3 10 0 11 0 0 11 0 0 5 l6' 0 4 0 0 2 0 0 2 0 0 2 10 0 5 10 0 5 10 0 4 0 0 9 0 0 1 10 0 10 0 11 0 0 11 0 0 1 10 0 5 0 0 1 10 0 3 4 0 5 10* 0 4 0 0 3 18 0 4 10 0 11 0 0 4 0 0 6 7 6 4 0 0 2 00 7 10 0 2 0 0 4 0 0 8 7 2 4 10 0 4 10 0 5 10 0 4 14 0 5 13 6 4 00 4 10 0 8 0 0 8 0 0 3 10 0 4 00 4 0 0 4 0 0 5 10 0 4 5 0 3 4 0 8 10 0 8 0 0 4 10 0 2 10 0 1 10 0 7 5 0 8 0 0 3 15 0 1 10 0 4 0 0 Totals 554 0 0 564 17 9 170 1 6

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11. Extra Assistance. (1.) During Session. £ s. d. £ s. d. 4. Extra Assistant (since 1879), at 10s. per day, say ... ... 50 0 0 5. Mailman (since about 1872) „ „ ... ... 50 0 0 Bonus of £5 each ... ... ... ... ... 10 0 0 110 0 0 (2.) During Eecess. 4. Extra Assistant, at Bs. per day, say ... ... ... 15 0 0 5. Mailman as Extra Assistant, at Bs., say ... ... ... 20 0 0 35 0 0 111. Miscellaneous. (1.) During Session. 6. Charwoman, at 35., say ... ... ... ... ... 15 0 0 7. „ 15 0 0 30 0 0 (2.) During Eecess. 6. Charwoman, at 35., say ... ... ... ... ... ... 600 £831__0_ 0 Note.—ll. and 111. are approximate, and vary with the length of the session. The two extra assistants are employed (chiefly in dusting the books) for about a month after the session ends and about a fortnight before it begins. The bonuses mentioned in 11. (1. were recommended by the Library Committee, and approved by the Speakers. Duties. 1. Librarian conducts correspondence, selects books (for submission to Committee), catalogues, and supervises. 2. Chief Assistant manages newspapers and periodicals department, and attends to members' correspondence. 3. Second Assistant attends to requests for books, files newspapers, and, during the recess, brings up and takes down mails. 4. First Extra Assistant is in attendance on members, and during the session takes a share in the filing of newspapers ; before and after the session he is for five or six weeks employed in dusting the books. 5. The Mailman carries down and brings up mails, and attends to the fires. During six or eight weeks before and after the session he is employed in dusting the books. 6. Charwomen wash out the rooms and set the fires.

VI. Return of Amounts paid to Officers of the Legislature during the Recess for the Years specified below.

Name. Nature of Service. 1881-82. 1882-83. 1883-84. 1884-85. 1885-86. Totals. £ s. a. 6 6 0 £ s. a. £ s. a. £ s. a. 6 6 0 £ s. a. £ s. a. 12 12 0 3. Brandon Returning Officer !. C. N. Barron Supervising Civil Service Examinations 111 11 0 112 12 0 112 12 0 106 6 0 112 12 0 555 13 0 .. Macgregor Fees, Civil Service Examination i 12 10 0 16 10 0 27 2 0 15 0 0 25 0 0 15 0 0 27 10 0 18 0 0 92 2 0 64 10 0 3, D. Bell .. Secretary, West Coast Commission (including travelling allowance) 260 16 0 145 0 0 272 18 6 60 0 0 738 14 6 I. S. Hadfield Interpreter, West Coast Commission (including travelling allowance) Interpreter, Native Land Court 344 19 0 254 4 0 103 17 0 703 0 0 19 5 0 21 9 0 18 10 0 59 4 0 l, T. Bothamley New Zealana Hana-hook .. Eaiting Transactions of the New Zealana Institute 50 2 0 32 0 0 58 0 0 22 10 0 63 0 0 66 °5 0 25 0 0 54 10 0 262 7 0 V. Mitchell Services as Private Secretary to Colonial Secretary Property-tax Department .. 71 12 6 71 12 6 55 16 0 65 15 0 9 15 0 131 6 0 Shorthana-writer to Middle Island Railway Commission Secretary to Railway Commission 102 4 6 102 4 6 . G. Grey .. 224 1 0 224 ± 0 3. Downey .. Rabbit Inquiry Commission 46 17 0 46 17 0 !. G. Home Nautical Assessor 3 3 0 13 13 0 16 16 0 6.—I. 10

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VI. Return of Amounts paid to Officers of the Legislature-continued.

VII. Retukn showing the Names of Membees of the Lbgislatuee who are in Eeceipt of Pay or Pensions from the New Zealand Government in excess of the Amounts paid to them as Members. Civil Service Pension. Hon. Sir W. Ktzherbert, K.C.M.G. ... ... ...£325 0 0 per annum Hon. Dr. Pollen ... ... ... ... ... 418 15 0 Jas. B. Heywood, Treasury, 2nd August, 1886. Accountant to the Treasury.

VIII. Return showing Expenditure upon Maintenance of each Department of the Colonial Government for the Years 1860, 1865, 1870, 1875, 1880, and 1885. (From B.-16, 1886.)

* Includes additions to Government House and new furniture. + The travelling expenses of Ministers are not shown separate in the accounts for the year 1865-60. £297 is entered in the Public Accounts as travelling expenses of His Excellency the Governor, Ministers, and officers. Jas. B. Heywood, Treasury, 16th June, 1886. Accountant to the Treasury. {Approximate Cost of Paper.— Preparation, not given; printing (1,400 copies), £3814s. 3d.]

By Authority : George Didsbuby, Government Printer, Wellington.—lBB6. ...,.,

Name. Nature of Service. 1881-82. 1882-83. 1883-81. 1884-85. 1885-86. Totals. Extra clerk, Property-tax Offioo £ s. d. & s. a. £ s. d. 29 8 0 £ s. d. £ s. d. £ s. d. 29 8 0 G. Adams .. F. W. Reimenschneidel Assistant Translator, Native Office 80 7 0 80 7 0 W. Berry Extra Clerk, Native Office .. 71 5 0 71 5 0 G. Mail Land Purchase Officer 487 10 0 487 10 0 L. Stowe Census Enumerator 40 0 0 90 0 0 Preparing Index to Acts 50 0 0 F. E. Campbell Scrutineer, Government Insurance 15 15 0 15 15 0 Grand total 3,909 14 6

1860-61. 1865-66. 1870-71. 1875-76. 1880-81. 1885-86. .. —The Govebnob, — Salary Establishment Government Houses and grounds £ 3,500 1,125 885 £ 4,500 1,473 337 £ 4,500 1,637 8,445* £ 5,000 2,500 1,901 £ 4,528 2,500 486 £ 5,000 2,500 642 !.—MlNISTEKS, — Salaries Travelling allowance and expenses House allowances Residences 5,510 6,310 5,506 t 14,582 9,401 9,283 1,044 319 1,078 7,514 7,808 1,174 430 1,104 8,142 2,913 5,000 486 283 124 9,250 2,100 550 2,812 !.—The Legislature,— Salaries, including extra clerks and messengers,— Legislative Council House of Eepresentatives Honorariurn General expenses 511 1,068 2,913 5,506 1,162 1,876 5,209 5,041 5,893 1,728 3,440 7,095 7,337 11,724 2,264 4,812 14,724 9,832 10,516 2,605 4,928 19,800 11,165 14,712 3,063 6,283 25,776 11,505 I 6,900 :. —Departments. Under control of the— Colonial Secretary Colonial Treasurer Minister of Justice Postmaster-General and Commissioner of Telegraphs Commissioner of Customs Commissioner of Stamps Minister of Education Minister of Native Affairs Minister of Mines Minister for Public Works Minister of Defence 9,920 3,553 15,541 33,574 17,006 2,717 8,479 33,630 5,576 45,248 146,891 43,573 7,814 13,288 70,701 12,011 49,449 138,997 57,062 17,542 19,600 76,678 10,795 52,618 223,970 65,724 23,416 11,520 29,454 31,632 208,837 103,759 119,382 256,152 86,668 23,786 271,165 33,968 11,601 603,498 141,465 38,498 237,304 59,735 113,666 287,524 77,623 28,212 357,806 22,243 19,056 726,576 161,108 40,627 I,'il7 28,508 30,038 "851 6,880 "931 27,470 32,347 83,773 126,767 131,095 Totals 339,641 491,920 752,037 1,860,279 2,090,853 91,159